Hey, everyone, and welcome to your Friday. You made it. Congratulations.
And yeah, we haven't had a hubcast for I think one week. We skipped last week just because one of our guests got a little bit ill. That's okay.
They rescheduled. I'll be back here in just a couple weeks. And I'm not sure.
I'm not sure actually when Mac will be back, but he'll be back. I promise. He's okay and he's fine. It just was a little bit under the weather, so we rescheduled.
No big deal. So again, welcome to the show. We got some awesome things planned coming up. If you guys haven't seen some of the stuff from Cyber Social Hub, if you're not on our mailing list, make sure you run over to the website and get on to the mailing list. We just pushed out a call for speakers for our annual conference, Cyber Social Con.
This is our fifth year, I think, doing this event. Last year, we had over 1,000 people register for the event. So awesome to thank all of you.
Again, 100% free to you guys. You don't have to pay a thing. All you got to do is just hang out and attend the talks that you want to see. If you have any recommendations for some talks, we're still far enough out. I mean, this is what, August still?
And the event's in December. We can go try to grab a speaker on that particular topic. So make sure you head on over there. If you do want to be a speaker, you do have to submit a talk.
because what we're looking for is actual training content, stuff, information that's going to make the investigator's job easier in what they do. Obviously, we don't want a commercial, Cyber Social Con. So all you have to do, head over to CyberSocialCon, all one word,.com, and you'll see the 2024 is up. The dates for 2024 are up. You can see the speakers we had last year, and then there's a...
button right in the middle and I should have brought it up on my screen and I didn't. It says register for a talk or something like that. Click that and you can submit your talk, at least find the information that we're looking for within there.
So you can kind of prepare what you're going to talk about. But again, that's free for you as well. If you have some awesome information and you want to share it with the community, that's the place to do it.
This year is going to be even bigger. We've got something awesome in store for you. We have a brand new platform.
to show you at Cyber Social Con. Some of you got a sneak peek of it two weeks ago if you were here at the show. Two weeks ago, we kind of featured it a little bit.
A few of you jumped in and helped us test that platform. So I really appreciate that. It's going to be pretty neat. So it's a pretty neat networking tool where you can jump around different tables. Anyway, we'll feature it later.
So we're literally looking forward to Cyber Social Con 24. And without further ado, hang on, let me find the right button. if I miss it. Don't miss it. All right.
Excellent. Oh, I wanted to test one thing real quick. I'm going to see if this chat actually shows up.
I'm trying a new scene here. Hey, it does. Hey, there's a Megan.
So it kind of appears there. I'm trying to make sure this gets right there. You can kind of see the chats.
We've been testing a few platforms over the last few weeks. If you guys didn't realize that, which we are here, I can bring this down. There we go.
There we can see them all in there. And that showed chats. That's the only thing Ecamm doesn't do is show some of the chats. But there we go.
Hey, Glenn's there. Look at that. Oh, this is going to be a fun one.
I can see it already. Knowing very well. Yeah.
You can hear my guest back there. So I'm just going to go ahead and pop him right in. It's Keith Lockhart from Oxygen Forensics.
How are you doing, Keith? Good. So listen, you're speaking directly to me, not the whole world.
And you say you made it to Friday. I'm down with that 100% right now. Thank you. And as I was watching, since your screen kind of, as you're putting things in the screen, I can see your background grow and shrink, but it occurs to me that the other half of your wall is blank aside from a television or something.
Yeah. So I'm going to get some Mandalorian armor for that back there, I think to go with your storm trooper mask. Yeah.
I actually, just off of screen here. Hold on. I'll actually grab it. I'm working on filling up this area. Cause I just redid the studio.
What was that a year ago? And then I ran out of stuff to put that far over. So, but I got stuff.
Hold on. Okay. What do you got over here?
There we go. Oh, brilliant. Okay. I have stuff, more stuff. Ooh, not see.
You're ahead of me. You're ahead of me. Well, I'll just, I will send this then I will autograph this, me and my kid and we'll see who you are. Yes. That is pretty awesome.
Those are trainings, by the way. How do you learn better? You make visual aids.
Exactly. Absolutely exactly right. Exactly right. But you can see that this one still has Christmas wrapping paper hanging from one side of it.
That's when I got this, and I'm a little bit behind. When you put that together, I'll come back on the cast and we'll look at it. I'll make sure to point that out. Yeah, yeah. Hang on.
I'm going to try to sort. I got my audience telling me there's a little bit of an echo and it might be on my end here. Let me see if I can fix this.
Megan, does that make things better? I turned the volume down overall, so it should help things. We'll wait for her to respond here. Keith, we live about 15 seconds in the future also, just to let you know with YouTube. So we'll just wait and see what Megan says, but you should be good now.
I can certainly test that by saying the most atrocious thing and see if it. Yeah. Megan says I should outsource the building of the Legos.
I know who she's referring to herself. That's what she's doing. She wants to build the Lego stuff.
So Megan's on board with this theme. Okay. Good. Yep. Right on.
Right on. Right on. Absolutely. Anyway, Keith, obviously I am, I got to apologize to the audience right now.
Obviously I've known you for a bazillion years. And, uh. I put into the show notes that you were one of my mentors in the digital forensic industry.
Um, I remember seeing you present. Oh gosh, I was just a young lad, uh, many years ago. And I can't remember, I think it was at an HTCIA show. Um, and I was still in law enforcement working in a lab and I was like, holy crap, what an awesome gig this guy has.
Um, that is, so I don't know if I've ever told you that story or not. So there it is live on the air. And I saw that and I'm like, I want to do that. And now I just got to start my own channel because no one will hire me to do that.
So I just did it myself. Well, listen, if we play catch up, I mean, I saw you at Techno a couple months ago. But prior to that, I hadn't seen you since, I think, Colorado and you had crashed a scooter or something.
You were trying to run. I don't remember one of those. One of those. you you've recovered well that's a long time ago but it's been a while since i'd seen you like that crashed for sure but yeah it was good to see you at the recent techno matter of fact i'd walked up and down one of the aisles when you were podcasting and i uh i was going to jump in there and you know crash your podcast i thought that was better but you know you should see it kevin from from times gone by um i don't get to teach anymore hardly ever i'll get a a presentation or or internally make somebody understand about our our technology and their light bulb goes off i feel like i've done a good service for the week or the day um but yeah now it's like kids playing soccer or dancing or skating you remember those pictures and my kids were like it's big you know and now i can barely keep up uh with all the all the different sports stuff that goes on it's crazy it's crazy good though um still gotta work but i enjoy life like that yeah you Yeah, they grow up fast, don't they?
I mean, like super fast. I think the last time I saw your kids, they were itty bitty tiny. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the old techno down on the beach, that's one of my favorite pictures when they were both probably under my knee, height-wise, and I was holding hands with both of them on the beach. And that's like, what happened to that?
Because my daughter is a teen now, and that just changes the communication dynamic. She's that old already. Holy moly.
I'm like, oh. That explains why this went gray then for you, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have no humility.
Sometimes I get the diet, but yeah. And then when she comes and says, Dad, and she just looks at my hair, I'm like, hey, you know what? Go do something.
Yeah. I can do it on my own. Go cheer or something.
That's right. You know that's all you, right, by the way? Exactly.
When I grow mine out, I got two stripes right there. So, yeah. From my kiddos. Great.
It's pepper. Salt and pepper. Isn't that what they call that? Which is just salt, right? Yeah.
Anyway, good to see you. Thanks for letting me come crash your podcast today. No, man.
Absolutely. This is your first time here on this thing, too. I can't believe we waited so long. I'm glad you finally made it on one and actually we just connected to make it happen.
You called me out of the blue. Hey, I want to come on there. Yes. That was my answer. I don't know what you're saying.
Yes, absolutely. You did a fix, I think. What's that?
Yeah, fire. Oh, gee. I'm just looking at Brett's comment that I'm...
d-f-i-r-o-g oh yeah yeah you you are the og you know that right yeah uh long time well yeah As long as there have been Star Wars sequels. Sure. So, you know, I wanted to tell you, I saw your topic because I think I was like, Kevin, hey, let's do a Hubcast together and pick a topic.
We'll talk about whatever we talk about. Of course, you pick training stuff. So I was having this conversation with a couple other people.
And you remember in 2008 when the economy went upside down. And we sent, so speaking of Max, we sent Max up to this place up by the airport in Salt Lake City, kind of like a microtech-y. thing and we were deciding okay we're going to do remote training because if we don't you know we probably wouldn't be sitting having this conversation right now kevin you can clear back then right the world evolved but i took one of those starbucks you know handle coffee jugs up to him because i think he started we're going to tell the place look we need to stay open overnight for us we're going to start at like 6 p.m and that went that was like 9 a.m in australia because that was the first place we did it and uh and he stayed up all night and did that thing but you know as a training tip and trick when we talk about technology and using it like if we sit back and take roll call on life after covid the way we do things like this now by comparison to oh i gotta be in a classroom yeah not really you know take advantage be proactive and do other things that don't require travel money or time out of the office or things like that it's really interesting to reflect clear back to that and then look at what we do now and all the video streaming just all the stuff but it's a great avenue You know, rule number one, never stop learning. So you take proactive advantage of everything you can to get back to rule number one.
Don't stop learning. Oh, I can't go anywhere. You don't have to go anywhere.
You know, I don't have the time. Do a knowledge nugget. You know, never stop. So that's just to elaborate on some of the things that this conversation has jogged in my head when you brought it up as training.
And you, I mean, you would joke that nobody's hiring you to do that right now, so you do this. You're an awesome instructor all by yourself. What, I mean, I want to play interview for you. Tell me one of your good training tips in the world, because you obviously have been there, done that and done it really well. How do you share?
What's what's the best way to share these days? Because, I mean, you're doing I just wrote that down. Oh, speaking at the social con. Hmm.
And you call it training, right? Let's give somebody something to make their day go better. I mean, tell me your thought on that.
How does that make your make your day go by? Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, the world, I think. Well, obviously COVID changed everything.
And we were in a interesting position here at Cyber Social Hub to kind of pivot really quickly because we're small, agile, and we could just turn the ship really fast. Like versus a little dinghy boat is what I'll refer to us versus the massive cruise ships of the companies that were out there. It takes a lot longer to steer one of those. Yeah. So we could turn our dinghy pretty quickly.
pivoted to that online setup for a lot of different things and delivery. And obviously during COVID, that was just a no-brainer. And we thought, hey, this is just going to last a couple of years.
Things are going to go back to the world's normal, which I guess if your definition of normal is what mine is, then the world's back to normal. But what we noticed is that the online interactive piece didn't go away. Um, it, it became more in demand is what we've noticed. Um, at least on our end, maybe that's just because of the world that we, we live in.
I don't know. Um, uh, quick ingestible pieces of information, um, where, you know, traveling maybe X, Y, Z. Uh, I personally, I always still in will forever enjoy training in person, live instructor, live environment. Like, Hey, I screwed this up.
please come put your hands on my computer, fix what I did. Right. That's, that's the only way that I can learn.
I'm, I'm an old guy like that, but, um, some of the new, I think the younger generation, I don't know if they absorb training the same way. I'd be curious to get a little bit of their insight, but we see a lot of, um, interaction that way. And that's why we're, we're testing out the new software, which maybe you can come on and help us test that out on a panel sometime, kind of the networking. dealio well not after you just said the younger generation i'm not going to talk to you after this the presentation but uh that just makes me feel my age i think uh you know and it's funny you mentioned being signed up for cyberhub mail or whatever however you raise that in the beginning and i am and it's funny because every time many times i'm like oh i want to go watch that i want to take part in that whatever you just sent out not that nugget of information or that presentation or whatever it is But I think that's another training mantra. I mean, so I've been ironically, shockingly, I've worked for two vendors in my career.
instead of like 11 teen or however many that you know flipping from place to place but either way either place it's a toolbox world in the industry so you got to learn that way too there's no tool that does everything we've heard that conversation for a million years but look diversify your knowledge right don't put all your knowledge eggs in one basket because just because it makes you better everything analyst investigator user whatever you want to do and you can call it roi whatever you want to say but especially In my world now, I mean, like a big mobile focus stuff changes so constantly. Holy crap, you got it. If you're not staying proactive with your own education, you're doing yourself the disservice at that point. No matter what tools you're using, there's free tools.
I mean, and there's a ton of stuff out there and you got to diversify that as well. Whether it's live, whether it's a recorded nugget, whether it's a conference presentation, take advantage. You know, you always get it back to rule number one.
Keep on learning. I mean, well. I don't think I'm going to say something, but I just had a furtherance of that story to say two months ago, I was down at IASIS in class. I was. And I sit there and I'm thinking, wow, you know, I should do this all the dang time.
But it makes you, you know, when I'm learning about a protobuf, I'm like, what am I doing? I'm probably pushing valuable life knowledge out of my head to learn stuff like that. But it makes my day go better.
It makes my ability to make other light bulbs go off, which I guess makes my day go better. But yeah, even at this stage of the. of the career you can't stop you just can't stop doing it right and to me i spot on i mean if anyone thinks they ever know it all then they're in trouble they're definitely in trouble by far if it's one thing it's in all the years of learning that you know i personally have done i'm not even close to knowing anything uh which is you know there's there's just so much in the world to learn especially in this field because it's you I mean, again, I keep taking to say back in the day, it was going fast then. Things were changing constantly in today's world, even more so.
Because literally, I mean, the lights that are shining in my face brightly are connected. You know, the light switch that's controlling the overheads, connected. So much more crap that we have to learn as digital examiners than we... we ever even anticipated. Who thought you'd ever have to possibly do an exam for data for a light switch?
I would've been like, what? And now it's very real. Oh, I know. When you see a really good presentation on an investigation about IoT stuff, and I was down, my gosh, Internet of Things conference in Vegas, because I could drive down from where I am, it's super simple to get there.
I'm like, let's go down there for a couple days. And one of these PDs showed up and they had this conversation about, oh, I mean, even from, well, Kevin got up in the middle of the night, you know, and his baseline pattern is, no, he doesn't have high heart rate and big activity from two to three in the morning. And then he walked far enough away from Bluetooth disconnected from his wrist device to his phone.
And then he's shown on a camera. I mean, it's just astounding. 20 some years ago, we made a class at National White Collar Crime Center called ITERA, Internet Trace Evidence Recovery Analysis. And it was all about. open those little holes in the balloon of a story until finally there's just no more air or pops or something and man iot stuff just because you're bringing that up and that presentation i saw i was blown away just blown away because everybody looks at the common things oh geolocation and whatever there are so many little nuances you can put into a timeline to prove a point that's just out of control out of control like that so funny you bring that up because i just experienced that in the last year and it hasn't left me yet i'm trying to get those guys to come to a like a podcast or webinar with me just so i can feel cool when they tell that story it's amazing that's right you you uh was that your first gig ever was there was it and my color center oh yeah yeah back in the day yeah that was i mean that's so they came and did a class when i was still a cop and i can remember uh i won't name drop embarrass people but i i said something like how do you get a job with you guys and my lieutenant was in there and he's like shut up you're not you you know the age-old question of do you make a uh investigator a nerd or a nerd and investigator type thing and i i can because those are the days of like installing windows 95 with like 39 floppy disks or whatever that situation or you know having to get 20 with the cassette tape so now i'm getting really old at that point but yeah i became i guess the nerdy investigator but i thought wow that's really cool and then when you figure out you can teach people to have a better day And you know, cops had no, that was all tax money, bringing people to West Virginia to learn like that.
And great thing for them. Most of them were seconded against their will to go to that, you know, something happened. go there and they didn't want to be there and we're making them you know put partition tables back together with disk edit and that was not popular um but you know that was a great time because you learned what buttons did before buttons did them so when your automated technology came along you were in a good spot because you knew you clicked that you didn't modify that date or you know things like that so yeah that's i got super lucky and that every piece of my career like that has built me up for the next one because i went to an automated technology place And I knew what the tool was doing when it was doing it because of what I learned back then.
So I couldn't have planned it any better. You know, that's lucky me. Lucky me. Perfect.
This would have been the perfect segue into what I had planned. I searched, Heath, after I got, because we talked on the phone. What was that? Wednesday night?
Wednesday night. You didn't find your picture, did you? I did not, man.
I have my own server. I dug for hours. I literally, I couldn't do searches. I couldn't find all the keywords I was looking for.
And I was like, come on. So then I started going through it one by one by one. I still couldn't find that stupid picture. I know I have it somewhere.
It was the perfect. You were worried about that too, but I can describe it. So I can still see it in my head. It's probably out there.
Glenn probably has it. Glenn does probably have it. Glenn is here.
I've seen him here. Yeah, I saw that. Yes, he says, yeah, there's Glenn.
I see Glenn here. So it was, I think, if memory serves, you had your ponytail then. I had my ponytail, yeah. Yeah, you had your ponytail, and I believe you were standing on a desk.
So that was our moot courtroom. I was on the witness stand. Literally.
So you've got to remember that. coolest term that year was rotoscope which was taking your your digital uh technology for pictures and applying different layers of you know something over top of your lightsaber and once we learned how to do that like all bets were off for a year everything had lights it was crazy so yeah i think i did a great in my own mind great darth maul jump up onto the witness stand with the Yeah, with a lightsaber. Ready to do battle in hand. It was a cool picture.
It still tests well if you view it now. You're like, wow, who's that Jedi in court? The hairstyle is very Jedi. His outfit and his hair and everything else. Yeah, almost very Qui-Gon type hair going on.
It was Qui-Gon's ponytail. Exactly right. I should have let it out.
That's crazy. I will find it. I haven't given up. I just... By the time I literally searched for at least an hour or so.
And I was like, oh my gosh, couldn't find it anywhere. So I know I have it. It's just in one of the servers somewhere. I I'm, I'm a file hoarder. So look, if that's what you can find, I'm sure there's worse out there.
Looking for a, oh, Glenn. Yeah. Glenn, you know, the picture I'm talking about, I bet you have it. Um, oh. Yeah, he says, I remember, but I'm not sure where.
I'm glad that you don't know where. It is out there somewhere. We will find it. You'll be back on again. If you look back at that phase of time and before automated technology, learning as a tip and trick about training, knowing what your tools do, knowing how to break them before you break them, like in a training environment.
take advantage of a training environment because there's nothing worse when you're in production oh and something doesn't work out like you think in front of the people that matter whatever your stakeholder happens to be the person paying you the person judging your case the person whatever you're like yeah i shouldn't have known that no like we tell an instructor listen you get up there tomorrow and your lab doesn't work because you didn't try it might before woe be to you like don't take the last flight of the day to your location and not make it Don't put your dongles in your checked luggage. You know, all those hundred things to do to make a successful training environment. There's both sides of the fence, the instructor side and the student side.
Yeah, listen, when you're in that environment, take advantage and try your technology. Learn what it does so you don't get caught upside down in the conversation. I think that's a huge point. And, you know, you look at all the time at AccessData, when it was AccessData, and getting to a point where it's not just... user education, Kevin.
It's the instructor. I mean, users too, take advantage of a budget. You know, if you're in the managerial position, budget money for people to get education.
If you are the people that are susceptible to that budget, bug your boss to get money for education. Because, yeah, sometimes it takes tuition. Sometimes it takes travel. I mean, find the avenues around that or, you know, mitigate those things.
But put that together. I mean, that's a better working unit when people at least are allocating it for it. Maybe it doesn't get used.
Maybe it gets clawed back by some, you know, budget person. But start that way. Start that way.
I do that now. I try to be very conscious of that. And, you know. I used it to go to my own education this year.
Like I said, you always fall back on rule number one, keep on learning. And I think that's super beneficial or super good point for people to remember. And, you know, there's plenty of grants out there. I know grant writers that go find money.
We have people that do training in Utah all the time on grant money. And it's like, how the heck are you guys having that class with all these people? Oh, yeah, man, we went and found this, like going back to college and get a Pell Grant or something crazy.
But there's plenty of ways to take care of budgetary. mitigation. That's another tip trick I'll throw in there since we're talking that kind of genre.
Really? Now I know Brett's in here somewhere, runs DFIR training. And Brett, hang on, I have it right here.
I even bookmarked something that I'm going to talk about later, so I don't want to lose it. Brett Shaver's book. Have you had a chance to read that yet? In front of my microphone.
I have not, but that looks good. DFIR investigative mindset. Real good. book. There you go, Brett.
There's someone else going to need your book right there. He will definitely give you his two cents in there. I'll sign.
I bookmarked something that I wanted to talk about in actually a video that we're going to produce for you, Brett. It's a surprise. There you go.
Now you found out live. We're going to just do a couple little shorts on your book for you. We have been curious. What is it? I don't want to read it here because I want to save it for my video.
It'll ruin it. wrote it, but it talks about the, his book really talks about the mindset, right? Key pieces that you have to have. It's not a technical how-to investigative book. It's a mindset of the investigator, digital forensic investigator, which I thought was phenomenal.
That's why I had it sitting here next to knowing I wanted to bring it up to you and some of the points and talk about mindset a little bit off of the, and you mentioned when you started talking about NW3C. nerd into an investigator or cop into the nerd, nerd into the cop type of scenario in which one, and I think I know the answer from you already, this is where I learned most of my knowledge was from you, is what do you think, how does that, he loves it when I do that. I'm going to keep doing it for the whole show too, just to make you feel awkward.
What do you think is a good starting point? uh, for a digital investigator. Do you think, um, the investigative mindset is, is first or the nerdy part is first or the cop part, because you know, all of the investigative parameters first. And there's a big, and I'm not saying it's like saying, uh, you know, um, star destroyer versus enterprise, right? You know, I don't know that there's a right answer with that, but it's always interesting to hear the opinion.
So I have two schools of thought or two, two conversation points about it. Cause it's a great conversation. One starts with my kid playing soccer because they just went from, you know, seven versus seven to nine versus nine playing for the season. So the team had to take on more players and talking to the coach, he says, listen, you know, I can teach them soccer fundamentals.
What I can't teach them is athleticism. So when you watch them out there, they're doing tryouts and stuff. He's looking for kids that have athleticism because we can teach the fundamental, you know, footwork and all that.
So, OK, go back to, oh, you're going to apply to work at a federal agency. And they want you to be a scientist or an accountant or we can teach you criminal investigation. Come here with skills we don't have. So I would say and, you know, Kevin, the other day I was doing an interview and somebody has a question like that.
um you know what's your biggest um sector of users is it corporate or law enforcement or whatever and one person said about 70 30 and i said about 60 40 and frankly again it belies my age that i can say look i taught people 20 years or so ago that took their knowledge to corporate there were cops that went corporate um so i think and i've seen it be very successful it's not quite 50 50 but uh there's a ton of them now that go and do hold another careers because they have the investigative mindset that they bring to, I will teach you the corporate environment you're coming to, which you already know how to investigate. So I think probably I'd lean on the side of the fence that, you know, have the investigative mindset. Probably like that book, since that's kind of the title.
We can teach you what artifacts are going to make a case. We can teach you where to find those things. We can teach you how tools work to do it. But unless you have the inquisitive brain that's going to go, why did Kevin do that?
Let me look here because this sounds like a place that would support that. You know, I think that's the that's my having athleticism. I can teach you how to play the game.
But can you run fast or can you? turn on a dime or can you do you scan the field for where to pass a ball yeah i can teach you what where the artifacts are but you really have to have the mind to go dig for them out of the gate i would i would say that's probably more important i agree 100 100 now my next question is who am i offending by saying that because it's probably the other way around too i've heard good stories on both because you know if you don't have the technical know-how even though i you I think the technical know-how can be learned. I really do.
And I know Brett has some. I know some people in the audience have some pretty good. There's probably a point to that, Kevin, because I can reference people, like I said, that were forced into it. And there may be a different outcome in the conversation at that point versus people like me who is doing the job and then was a nerd.
I kind of already saw an avenue to mold those two things together. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Versus being forced to go do it.
And that I would imagine breeds a completely different outcome to the conversation. Yeah. Yeah.
And, and, you know, we've, and you've seen it in your career and again, nothing against like the computer scientists, those types of folks, um, because they, they have a very specific role and it's usually not the investigative, even though they understand, because they're the ones that like coded a lot of things of how they happen or they understand how or go in there and. check these logs, do this and do that. They lack that curiosity or that natural investigative piece where they have that. And you've seen, we've all had cases like this.
I'm just going to make one up here real quick, where someone took something to their IT guy, right? To their computer scientist guy. And it just was a botch, right? They've destroyed evidence. written all over stuff.
They've done these things because they don't have the investigative piece that they need. Smart people, much smarter than me by any stretch of the imagination, but they just didn't have that inquisitive mindset and they didn't know why criminals do criminal things or why people do the things that they do or necessarily where to find evidence and that extra curiosity. I don't know.
What do you think? It's interesting because... it's a lot easier to build training toward that mindset.
I mean, you build the mystery in this scenario, expecting people to think like that. So if it's not like that, it's like when you see a salesperson talk about technology, oh, does it feature, feature, feature? Yeah, but what value, what problem is it solving for you like that? You know, from an education perspective, I want your brain, if I set it up correctly, you're going to go from here, which will lead you to there, which will make you do this, which will let you find that.
And ta-da, you know? I mean, I think. I could be a little predisposed just because I'm on the side of the fence than I am, but it is certainly easier to educate in that mindset when the mindset comes to the table, wanting that, you know, versus now, mind you, I'm like you, it's broken.
The code doesn't work. I need some brilliant computer scientist engineer to help me fix this because my investigative train has stopped, you know, from a perspective like that. But, you know, that's. It's a fascinating question.
It still goes on today because there's still new people coming into the field. I mean, I'm literally not trying to prop up anybody, but being down at IASIS a couple months ago and seeing their basic class down there, huge, huge. Massive.
Massive. So that's not stopping, which is great. I mean, you get more people in the industry, and I think a large part of what I appreciate about education like that is everybody speaks the same language. globally when you can call when i can call you kevin and go yeah i just found this in unallocated space you know what i mean you know it's like what what who what and it's kind of like swallowing the pill from a computer so computer forensics kind of plateaus at one point when file systems are stagnant and artifacts change with operating systems but you know a lot of principles in computer forensics plateau and then you know oil rigs explode and people follow the money free discovery and uh, everything, everybody starts getting hacked and instant response becomes a massive thing.
But I, I remember swallowing the pill from collecting everything to targeted collection. I know there are all kinds of pros and cons conversations about, listen, if you don't get everything, you might miss victims. But there's a reality check of resource and time and statutes.
And, you know, okay, I've got this case. I'm moving on to the next one. It's a hard, hard conversation. But today, you know, you almost got a target based on what you're after.
And I just think educationally, a simple challenge for when you're building training, and you may recall this too. Hey, here's a little USB drive. It's going to be our evidence set. I mean.
No longer can I send you out a 40 terabyte drive for you to work on and send back or take it to class and go ahead and start processing that. We'll come back next month or next week, depending. Right.
So we take targeted data that's going to make or break our little scenario. Kind of nuts like that, that that conversation carries over into a lot of angles of training and investigation. Yeah, no, absolutely. It's just changed so much.
And I'm exactly same path as you. I was always get everything. patient miss something, but how do you get everything in a connected world? You can't. I don't think it's possible.
How do you have the time and the storage space? Well, you got to keep that on file for seven to 10 years if it goes to appeal or you can't do it. Where? Job security, I suppose, if there's somebody that's responsible for that part, but yeah, where and how.
Just keeping up with everything to get, that's education on, well, yeah, like you said, the lights looking at you right now are connected to, I mean, mine are connected to the dumb Alexa upstairs. I tried to be crazy. I swore we'd never have that stuff. And now we have it. So Alexa can hear me right now?
Can she hear me? No, I'm clear down. I went way far away.
I can't even say. Nothing's worse than when I'm talking and my phone starts. I don't know that.
I wasn't talking to you. Then I get into an animated conversation with an inanimate object and I look just bad. I'm still convinced those things listen to us.
There was a video, Kevin, a long time ago at my house. I think Chris Sam, I'll drop that name because I think he took a video where I was yelling at my television for a Cowboys game one time. And that got into a piece of evidence somewhere at some point. I did.
I do remember seeing that. You remember that? Yeah. So here's a fun story for you. When I came to Oxygen and I was like, oh, cloud extractor is really cool.
And we got this dumb Alexa. So I went and I'm like, oh, I'm going to go to, I don't know, some conference. I was doing a presentation on cloud stuff. So I grabbed my own Alexa data, not really understanding everything that was being captured at the time. So I'm going to, yeah.
So you guys, you know, if you get the, you get it from the cloud, you actually get the recording, you get the voices, you get not just a text base and actually hear the recordings of what Alexa recorded. Here's a big file, big size. Let's play this one.
It's my son. Who's like, this is five years ago almost. So he would have been five and just try to keep up there in the house and be cool.
So he's like, Alexa, Alexa, Alexa. I'm like, hey, buddy, you got to tell her. You got to tell her to do something. You can't just keep saying her name. Well, as soon as you say Alexa, what does Alexa do?
Starts recording. So he just has this throwdown of about 30 seconds of saying Alexa and Alexa recording. And in the background, I know you'll find this hard to believe, there's a Cowboys game on. I'm like, you miserable piece of...
That was going to be the recording that I selected to play in front of the audience. I'm like... oh only i would do yeah have a laugh because that's that's the recording and my kid just set me right up for bad bad bad it was i mean it's hilarious but mental note right that when you uh check your data before you like that oh yeah so you wouldn't even and oh my gosh alexis are now involved in trial it's just crazy but yeah that that tangent where you're talking about your light bulbs right there and what what do you collect And I think about everything that, you know, when I go look in my router, they're like port, like a port forward or something. I see all the devices in my house that are connected to my router. Oh, my, you know, or all the time the app's going, something just connected to your network.
I'm like, what is that, people? And I got to go query my entire family to find out what or whose friend just came over and got on our network with our, like back to, I understand you guys. Yeah, it's crazy. It is crazy. It has nothing to do with training, but maybe.
but a mindset, you know, mindset when we would talk about crime scene and gosh, dang what it is now and what it was then. Woo. Yeah.
And then Brett mentions like demos are awesome. Yes, indeed. They are.
Absolutely. I'm the wacko that will always go live and break something. And I probably have bad reputation for that, but look, we haven't laughed at that.
As long as it's me breaking in the audience stuff works, you know, it's not good. I can play that off all day long, I suppose. I meant to do that. Why is he watching me do it again? Yeah, going live.
But it's more fun that way. Better expectation. Absolutely.
I cannot believe. It's like we've been going 43 minutes, and I haven't even mentioned half the things I wanted to talk to you about. Oh, well, yeah, I'm sorry. No, no, no.
It's just and this is what I warned you about this ahead of time, right? We knew about it. Yeah. Sometimes we talk about the topic. Sometimes we don't.
It's just the way it works. Look, I've tried. I've thrown some good training stuff. You have.
I've got three. three mantra things and I'll recap them before we end just so we can say we did. Yeah.
Ron knows all too well. He's here most every week. I just, the tangent, that's exactly, it's, it's what we do here. We even got a thumbs up from it. Someone just gave a thumbs up across the screen.
Yeah. And that's what happens here. Sometimes even the audience, they're actually listening this time. They're not off on their own conversation. It's good.
So you've got their attention. But I wanted to ask you, I know there's some things coming up at Oxygen Forensics that I know you wanted to talk about. And I wanted to make sure I brought those up. I appreciate that.
So you should, are you able to, probably not, like bring up a website? I can. Give me one second while you're chatting and I will do that in the background. And I'll just come up with a link.
What I was going to tell everybody, and it goes back to rule number one, keep on learning. So we're having our user summit in October at our headquarters. area in virginia and alexandria and we're looking for speakers as well i mean as well as come visit it'll be fine um and i just i was going to show you on our website the links at the top of it to get to the page that talks about the summit and to come speak and like you talking about the social con we and and there are two training tracks right after at a non-training traditional cost structure take advantage right back to rule number one love this you there i'll be there for a couple days on the front end of that and oh there you actually jumped right to that fantastic yeah it's right here it's on the well you can't really see the top where it's at but it's right above your menu bar where it says company resources all that stuff there's a little yep hang on i got this uh box see that's what fried because i didn't prep ahead of time now i'm gonna do all that's me putting on the spot to pull up a web page so i really appreciate what it saves me doing trying to do anyway it's it's right above there on their main site. You go to, what did I say?
Visual aids. Good job. Yeah.
I will even copy this and throw it into chat and we'll put it in the show notes as well. And even Ron has says, hold on. He goes, Oh, squirrel. Yeah.
We're off onto another topic yet again. Hey, but this look like this is a perfect example of taking advantage, being proactive. And there's some nearly. super, super low cost training available on the latest, greatest stuff.
So, and our speakers are knowledge nugget crazy, right? So you'd go look at that list and that goes out. Oh, squirrel. What would Homer say?
Oh, beer. No, that's, that's great. I appreciate bringing that up. Appreciate bringing that up.
Yeah. So make sure you guys get over there. I posted the link here into chat.
Now, as soon as we're done going live, I know the chat disappears for about an hour until YouTube puts it back up. I don't know why they do that. So I'll make sure I put this link down into the show notes. So if you guys are watching and you hear us talking about this chat that doesn't exist for you, it'll be in the show notes. Now, if you're watching on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, or the other things that's not YouTube, make sure you head over to the YouTube channel.
Just search for Cyber Social Hub. You'll see this episode is the last one that we just did. It'll be in the show notes below there, the link for this.
Or you can just go to oxygenforensics.com and you'll see the, it's a thin little bar. It says user summit. October 15th through the 18th this year and learn more. That's all you.
Learn more from that. Well said. Well said. There you go. Appreciate it.
Yeah, that looks actually very interesting. So it's a live event then. Yep. Yep. We're doing it right down in Alexandria, which, you know, I wasn't super familiar with Alexandria when I got there, but man, right down on the river is so much fun.
So much fun. like uh party not party land but uh you know eateries and establishments and you know just uh like a whole line of go down to the river and have like a river walk essentially yeah um yeah should be good time should be good time speakers and training and and it's all it's not us right the whole thing is about you guys come tell your stories because it's fine if we say it but it's golden if you say it you know you bring the reality where we're a vendor yay you know come share come share your stuff with everybody there's our whole mantra I like what you have here. And it says speakers and presentations, no cost to attend. Correct. And then training available.
So you have training track days as well then? Yes. Yes. Following the event itself.
Okay. Holy crap, the training is inexpensive. I love it.
That is affordable. I could afford the training. And that's awesome.
I'll see you later. That is awesome. So yeah, guys, go check that stuff out. I got it.
I'm going to do the squirrel. That's why Ron knew very well. If I open a website, there goes the squirrel. So I got to shut that off now. What else you been up to my friend?
Look, man, I'm telling you, if it's, doesn't have a soccer ball or a, uh, uh, what is it called? What are those on point shoes? Right. If those aren't involved, you know, then I just go do work for the day. You know, you just missed it.
I, so my kid's soccer team is Celtic. Yeah. Like when it's tournament time, I shave a shamrock on the back of my head and all the parents are like, this is the team we got this guy.
But conversely, Kevin, if you go to YouTube and maybe it's just the algorithm because where I am geographically, some of the craziest parent ref fights or parent, parent fights and soccer is Utah. They're all Utah videos. Like, yeah, I'm not doing that.
I'm not going to be that guy, but that's what I'm doing. I listen, the summit's coming up. Work is always busy. Well, So, okay, since you asked this question, and you can just relate to our Access Data Days when we'd get technology out, you know, once a quarter or once a, yeah, once a quarter. Good subscription, fixed bugs, new features.
Oxygen just, or any mobile technology is just not like that. It comes out, I don't know, 12, 14 times a year because we've got to keep up with all the updates. I mean, it's a new phone, it's a new application, it's new firmware, it's new versions, new blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you know.
Training-wise, somebody mentioned the word to me earlier today, proactive. You've got to be proactive to keep up with that stuff, especially if you're going to investigate this type of thing. Man, it's just crazy.
Is that app supported? Is that version supported? Is that new workspace or group room or feature? It's nuts.
I mean, it makes it difficult to keep up with sometimes, which is why I'll plug it. because we're doing it but i know other vendors are doing it now as well but like when you buy or subscribe to our stuff you get a training content in the lms and it's it's just included like that because we want people to stay successful and stay current and there's no better way to keep up with that material than make videos because you can make a new one really quickly new knowledge nugget with that new feature then we're having to go redo a whole book and we haven't printed a book in years and years and years because of that i mean to try to keep up with that so if we can't be proactive ourselves from let's build trading like that, then students can't be proactive in acquiring the knowledge and staying current with whatever tools they're using. I mean, the system breaks down.
So if you don't have access to stuff like that, go find it for peace sake, because that's the only way you can keep up these days. No longer is it, oh, let's print 20 books and ship them to wherever in a big box for a lot of money. And it's out of date as soon as it got there.
Remember those days. Yeah. I was going through, we had a flood here in the basement where I'm at. back in September and old boxes up on shelves.
Just where, I mean, we're going through everything, just pulling stuff out. Luckily the stuff up top didn't get, didn't get hurt at all. And one of the boxes up top, just full of old manuals.
I mean, full of old manuals of classes that we had either I'd taken or taught years. And holy crap, that's heavy. It was a big box. I was surprised. What we used to do.
you know oh my gosh changing with the times i guess oh yeah yeah good it's good that's proactive too yeah so i'll i'll leave my training comments with my personal perspective don't ever stop learning even when you're this stage of career life whatever and from a managerial perspective budget for this whether it's yourself your team if you're on if the team needs to get the budget go after somebody for that i mean it's not unheard of it's matter of fact it's probably a professional expectation that people have an outlet for education and diversify i know people you always hear hey listen our money is in this right now so we can't we don't have time or effort for other technologies that's a bunch of crap if you're really into this work you'll know in 10 minutes not one tool does everything and i'm i'd never profess that no matter what vendor i end up sitting the chair ever since my chair uh learn other stuff There's a bunch of free tools out there. Get your hands on whatever works. It's a toolbox.
So is that, right? Toolbox mindset for learning. And those are my three key takeaways for training tips from maybe not a Jedi.
It's phenomenal advice. And it's not, I think the advice that you just gave was much bigger than what you even realized. I have coaches in all kinds of craziness.
I became the serial entrepreneur, crazy, insane. And they said something that you just referred to was always invest. You can invest in this budget over here, that budget over there, but the number one that you should invest in is yourself. And what I mean by that is by the knowledge.
And you just said that in a little different words. I'm just going to hire you as my coach and fire my other son. I'll call you in the afternoon.
We'll begin. Soon as payment clears. First five seconds, photoscoping, and then we'll move on to real things.
Right. Saber skills. um one at all do you still have your lifesavers uh yes well i have one and my son has one and you know of course yeah there's usually two setting here uh and here but i took one down to show you and it's still here it's just i'd have to run up stairs to his room it's in yeah well you know that cases they come in from what's his name's workshop yeah and that thing but yeah for sure yeah i had some uh friends get me this this was a gift and it was actually still in the box vader's collector edition it was in the box and it got drenched in the flood yeah and i was like i fully intended to keep it in the box but the box was destroyed and so i was like oh well i guess i gotta take it out of there So, and it's worth every bit of it taking out of it. This thing is beautiful. It's like actual metal chrome in there and it's heavy, this thing.
Yeah. Vader's. So, and it fully works here.
Very good. Very good. I don't know if you guys can hear that. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Shockingly enough, there's a place in Utah that makes battle-ready ones that are like Yeah. They've gotten crazy with these things.
Oh, yeah. Love it. Oh, yeah. Don't hurt yourself. For real.
That's a real comment. Yeah. Did you see the real lightsabers that they actually developed?
Real sabers for the most part? Now, granted, there's a huge power plant behind it, like running it. Well, I've seen the guys that make this flame that extends through metal, but I also saw the one that the Disney guy had. It's a little thick.
I'm like, wow. And I'm so sad as a bucket list item, I would have gone to the crazy experience, the Star Wars hotel thing, but they shut it down. They shut down the hotel already? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Back a while ago. I didn't even know that. The characters portraying the scenario in their, what's her name, Rey fighting Kylo Ren. They'd showed that clip.
She has one of those. She's up on this ledge. I did see it. And you're like, oh, my gracious. And then, of course, she does some roll and switches it out to her other one to beat the actual battle with.
But, yeah, I would have wanted to do that, but it's already gone. Yeah. Ron says, Sabre is most important.
And then Megan says, well, it was like $1,500 a night. Yeah, it was not affordable, to be clear. Hence the bucket list part of that, yeah. Yeah, hence the bucket list part of that, for sure. However, to plug Disney, the Star Wars Experience ride, the coolest thing I've ever ridden ever in any park ever.
The most astonishing thing I've ever done. Absolutely. It felt like you're in there. Now, I think it's been three years since I've... been there now and my kids i haven't fully converted them they like the harry potter stuff better which hurts me in my soul a little bit yeah it was uh star wars definitely went yeah and then you go to the haunted house that still has the 1970 animatronics yes but that ride i think they've changed it a little bit inside if you haven't ridden it for a few years one of the scenes um you I was on, again, I don't know how real it was.
It was social media. I think it was on YouTube. I was actually on watching it and somebody was filming it.
And the part where, if you remember pulling up and you see Kylo Ren up on the bridge of it, and then he turns and sees you and then you back out, jumps down the hallway. That scene was different. It was not, it was an animatronic one setting there.
It was different from when I wrote it because I filmed the whole thing on my GoPro. I was there. I had my GoPro like hidden down below like, oh, this is awesome.
Well, okay. I'll tell you this story that will portray me in a horrible light like a stalker or something. Our family was in one car and another family was in another car across from us.
And this girl, probably 14, like my daughter, is just filming the whole thing with her phone, like not trying to hide it and just doing it. Yeah. Well, what you realize is every, you know, how the cars move all over the place, but everywhere all the cars move, hers just faced ours constantly. And all that video would have shown was me going like this.
This is awesome. I saw her, we were in another ride in the lines and we brought, I'm like, I'm telling my wife, don't talk to her. I'm like, Hey, are your parents here? I'm like, what am I? And she's like, stranger to you.
Yeah. That was creepy. We really would love it. If you'd share your video with us, because it's our whole family the whole time in your video and that number.
However, I would do it again in a heartbeat just to hold, you know, do a, do the selfie stick. to see our family reaction was astonishing just i know i was amazed and uh yeah like i said that one that saber back there was the experience and you said you did the experience the lightsaber experience uh yeah disney that new order type experience but it's still it was so cool i was in total i filmed the whole thing too set my gopro on a tripod like you did you filmed i filmed my son yeah well and then we it was like the tail end of the park closing So we waited until everybody came out of the Millennium Falcon ride because the Falcon's there and it's all the support. Oh, yeah.
So everybody's gone. We get a picture of just that phenomenal backdrop and then one of him. So here it is.
The park's closed. And everybody's like, get out, get out. So here's me and my son walking down this path, just him and me and his lightsaber on.
I'm like, this has to be one of the most surreal, cool moments in my life. It's like taking a video on the... on the one 10, right? How do you get all those cars off there to have an empty highway? How do you get all the people out of the park?
So you have the walkway to your, you and your kid all by themselves with the lights. Freaking awesome. Yeah.
Wow. That's the two strong words. What's going on in life? You know, you get stories like that when you ask how things are.
That's right. That's right. Keith, man, I cannot believe an hour has gone by already. My friend, man, I went by quick fucking nerd stuff.
It's going to work all day long. All the way. Yeah. It's great. I'd love to have you back on the show if you'll come back on the show.
Of course. I don't know when, but let's get you back on and we'll talk some more stuff. But guys, don't forget about the user summit coming up.
Again, oxygenforensics.com. You'll see the button right across the top. Go in and check that out. And Keith, again, thank you so much for hanging out with us. I really appreciate it.
Somebody said, now you know my aversion to social media, right? I think that's not, everybody knows. I made my first Instagram post ever last week.
What? Actually, yeah. Yeah.
But I did make a LinkedIn post for the user summit. I think I was promoting one of our speakers. And somebody wrote back, hey, is there going to be beers with engineers at 5 p.m.? Flashback to old day techno shows with Axis Data.
And my answer to that, I never wrote back to it on LinkedIn, but I will tell everybody in the audience. Yeah, the night I'm there, I will certainly foster. networking.
How's that? Probably down on the river. But yeah, we'll definitely have a good time. I'd love to see anyone and everyone. That's great.
Thanks for helping out with that, Kevin. Awesome. Awesome.
Keith, don't disconnect yet. We're going to run a little video for the outro, and then I'm going to come back. I got something for you. The audience already knows what it is because we do it all the time.
So don't go anywhere. Everyone else, thanks so much. Appreciate you guys for hanging out with us.
Keith, again, thanks so much, sir. Catch you later. Thank you.