Before I introduce the guest, I wanted to say that I got a letter on November the 3rd of 1978, and it says, Dear Mr. Trotter, does anybody out there know that there are alternatives to doctors, hospitals, nursing homes, and rising medical costs? How many of your viewers are aware that chiropractic's foremost function is preventive health care, not treating necessarily whiplash and an aching back? Well, got the letter from the Association of Chiropractic Education, and we are here this evening.
Our first guest is Dr. Terry Ronberg, the author of that letter. He's president of the Association for Chiropractic Education and is a doctor of chiropractic. Next to him is a medical doctor.
Dr. Jerome Williams. He's director of the Williams Clinic in St. Louis. And next to me is Dr. You know, it's funny, Reginald. Usually all the guests are on one side, and I'm wondering who's the next.
next to me now is Dr. Reginald Goad. He's a doctor of chiropractic and president of the Institute of Straight Chiropractic in Pennsylvania. I think that's Ed... Edio.
Edio. Edio. Okay.
And last but never least is Dr. John Grant. He's a St. Louis physician. 367-7211. We have a new little format here that I am eventually going to get comfortable with.
Let me say that... I think it's very important when we had a show and we thought about this, when Terry said, well, what about us? A great idea, I thought.
Still a great idea. The show was almost going to be canceled because we didn't have an opposing viewpoint. Not necessarily an opposing viewpoint for the sake of being mean or evil or pro or con, but for moral and legal sake. I think when you talk about health, it's the most important thing.
There is in life. You can be black or white, poor or rich. You can be a Republican, you can be a Jew or a Gentile. When it comes to good health, when it comes to health, it's very important. It's essential.
Therefore, in an effort for health for you, good health for you, for questions such as chiropractic, you always have to have another opinion. That's the medical opinion. The medical world, the world of medicine, the world of surgery.
Therefore, on this evening's show, I think you will find that not only the show will be enlightening, informative, which it's supposed to be, but most importantly, most importantly, you will get several contrasting opinions, and it's left up to you to decide which one you want to believe in. 367-7211. Terry, I think I would like to ask you, what is chiropractic? Well, to answer that, I think it's essential to have an understanding of what chiropractic is not.
Chiropractic is not a diagnosis or a treatment for any disease or any symptom in any way at any time. And I think that the vast majority of people do not understand what chiropractic is or what it's for. Chiropractic is for the restoration and maintenance of health. Okay, I have a brochure. And it is from your organization.
It says people come here for four main reasons. Disease, prevention, improving themselves, and improving the world. Can the medical world offer the same thing, in your opinion, Dr. Jerome Williams? Oh, very definitely so.
I am still not quite clear as to what the... practice of chiropractic actually is and I think this will be a learning situation for everybody. Now I would like to differentiate chiropractic from chiropody.
The public probably gets those confused the practice of chiropody or podiatrists actually is dealing with the feet or the foot itself. This goes back to 1840 and I think the chiropractics first started. In 1895, I think they had David Palmer who founded the organization in Davenport, Iowa, and he established the Palmer Institute or Palmer College of...
Chiropractic in 1898 and his son carried on the work. But I would like to hear more what the gentlemen have to say about exactly what they do so then I can more intelligently comment on it. Okay, Dr. Gold, you may continue with that by this specimen you brought in. Okay, if I may borrow a little willy here. This is a fiberglass model of the human spine seen here from behind.
The hip bones or pelvis, the sacrum, tailbone at the bottom. Then the 24 movable segments of vertebrae that form the spine and on top of that the skull. This of course is the province of the chiropractor.
Chiropractic is based upon the intent of keeping these bones in their proper relationships to each other simply because virtually every vital nerve trunk in the body passes through these openings. As we turn the spine sideways we see openings between the bones and inside the bones of the spine runs the spinal cord. Now as long as these bones are in their proper relationships to each other, then all of the nerve trunks, giving rise to all of the distribution of nerves throughout the body, is in a normal healthy condition. The nerve trunks are in a normal healthy condition.
If, however, one of these bones becomes misaligned from its fellows above and below, that's what the chiropractor calls a vertebral subluxation, a tiny twisting of the bone which narrows the opening, damaging the nerves. and resulting in some malfunction or malfunctions at the organs at the end of the nerves. Now, the chiropractor's job, as Dr. Romberg pointed out earlier, is never to diagnose or treat disease. We're not in the disease-treating field. We merely point out that if the human body is to have any chance at all of functioning normally, then every nerve to every organ must be in normal condition.
So what... Go ahead, I'm sorry. So what we're doing then is examining the spine. To find these subluxations, and we examine the spine with x-rays, with instruments, with our hands, and if we find a subluxation, then we set about a program, really a spinal rehabilitation, gradually, gently, easing these bones back into their proper relationships, getting the openings back to normal size, and allowing the nerves to function normally.
And that's all. Okay, in your, I could say, treatment of this, if someone has, let's say, a bad back, do you... Check that out before you go to twist the nerve? No, absolutely not.
Is that dangerous? No, we will examine the spine to see, first of all, if there is or is not a vertebral subluxation. We really don't care what it's causing. We're quite satisfied that any time a nerve is damaged, then the entire body must suffer as a result.
You don't care what it's causing? No, exactly. If there is a vertebral subluxation, whether we can find what it's causing, whether we know what it's causing or not, in and of itself, this vertebral subluxation... Limits the body's ability to function properly.
It shouldn't be there. So the next part of our examination is concerned with seeing whether it is safe for the chiropractor then to adjust the vertebra back into place. And how does it? All right.
If there is a subluxation and it is safe to adjust it back into place, we do that regardless of whether the patient has a backache, a cold, asthma, bronchitis, menstrual cramps. Doesn't matter what disease the patient does or doesn't have. What we're doing is not being done to cure disease.
It's being done simply because every human being, with or without disease, is better off if they have a good nerve supply to all of the body. You mean the twist of this could help a cold? No, on the contrary, the twisting of that damages the body.
Now, in this human body of ours, every single part is dependent upon every other part. You can't have a malfunctioning liver and the rest of the body healthy, or a malfunctioning kidney and the rest of the body healthy. If any part of the body has a damaged nerve supply, then the entire body suffers and resistance is lowered.
A cold doesn't come from a single cause. You brought up cold. The same virus which will cause a cold in a person one week will not cause a cold in that same person a week earlier or a week later.
We're dealing with two factors. One, the environmental factor. The other, the resistance of the body.
Now, chiropractors deal with the resistance of the body. In that we try and maintain good nerve supply to all of the organs so they can function properly. It is an inevitable fact that if one organ is damaged because its nerve supply is damaged by these spinal subluxations, then the entire body malfunctions. Could eventually lead to some disease, could not lead to disease. Mostly, if it were involved in disease at all, it would be as a contributory factor.
Diseases don't come from a single cause. Okay, doctor, I come to you. Let's use me for an example.
And I tell you that I have a terrible sinus infection, upper respiratory infection. And I'm not going to a medical doctor. I'm coming to you. Beautiful. This is what usually happens.
You come to me. and say Reggie can I can you help my sinus problem my answer is no I don't treat sinus problems what can you do for my sinus nothing I don't treat sinus problem what can you do for my cold not a thing not a thing here's what chiropractic is and I explained to you that my job is to examine your spine to see if you have a good nerve supply to all of the organs including the sinuses and every other part if you don't if your nerve supply is damaged by this misalignment of the spine my job is to restore nerve supply now Will that help my sinuses? Yes. I really don't know and I don't care. One thing I do know, you shouldn't be walking around with your nerve supply damaged.
Whether it affects your sinuses or not, you don't need damaged nerves. My job is to correct nerve supply in all people under all circumstances, whether it affects your sinuses or not. You're better off with a good nerve supply. That's the position of chiropractic. And that's what the practice is.
It seems like a simplistic one, but one that's been questioned. Yeah, it's simplistic in the same way that good nutrition is simplistic. I agree.
I wouldn't offer good nutrition to cure your cancer, but I say this, if you have cancer, if you have cancer, you're certainly better off eating properly rather than eating poorly. But if you don't have cancer, you're also better off eating properly than eating poorly. The same is true with chiropractic.
Regardless of what disease you have or don't have, you're better off if your nerves are not damaged by vertebral subluxation. Dr. Grant, if I come into your office... I don't know. I'm calling you Reggie.
I'm calling him Terry. Oh, that's okay. My name is Reggie.
Okay. Dr. Gold is my wife. Okay, fine.
Jack, if you please. Jack, right. Okay. I came into your office, or if I come into your office, I have a cold, I have a sinus problem of a respiratory. What would you do?
Well, I would talk with you for a few minutes to get the symptoms. Then I would look at your... head or your eyes your ears or whatever seemed to be appropriate if I thought that you might have a if I wasn't sure but I thought you might have a sinus infection I might get a sinus x-ray or if I thought you had a strep throat I would get a throat culture maybe a white count and then I would treat what seemed appropriate okay dr. Williams from another medical medical standpoint Would you be checking my spine?
Would you be checking my nerves for my cold, for my sinus, my upper respiratory condition? No, I would not. I think that scientific fact bear out that there is no real scientific basis for the practice of chiropractic as such.
I agree with the theory that any damaged nerve to a part of the body can cause a disease of that part, and some of the medical physicians'treatments are based on that particular premise also. I would like to ask Dr. Romberg if there are ever any spines examined that are not damaged. found to be perfectly normal? I have examined several thousand spines since I've been in practice. I have seen some spines without vertebral subluxations.
However, I'd like to point out that I think vertebral subluxations, because doctors of chiropractic are the only ones concerned with locating and analyzing and adjusting to correct subluxations, they're definitely in epidemic proportions today in our society. Absolutely. And many, many people I examine who are under, let's say, regular medical care, who've never had their spinal columns examined for subluxations, certainly should, because it's being overlooked by the practice of medicine.
What are the type of ailments, may I ask you, could you take care of, could you solve? Okay. You know, after I got through telling you that I would under no circumstances treat sinuses by adjusting the spine...
You then turned to Dr. Williams and said, would you treat sinuses by adjusting the spine? Let me say again that under no circumstances does any chiropractor treat sinuses or any other condition by adjusting the spine. Our purpose in adjusting the spine is to restore and maintain the integrity of the nerve system.
Whether you have a sinus problem or not is absolutely immaterial. Okay, tell us something that is material. We're using that... Nothing.
Chiropractors do not treat... diseases or conditions. Oh, but I've got... Now, if you're looking to find how we treat diseases... Okay, I want to know how...
The answer is we don't. Oh, you don't, but it says people come here for four main reasons. Forgive my reading.
Disease, prevention, improving themselves, improving the world. So much for three and four. One, diseases.
If I... I'm coming off the street. I'm just using this example. I'm coming off the street and I'm saying people come here for four reasons.
I'm reading two important ones because I'm thinking I've got a disease and I want to know how to prevent that disease down the line. I'm just assuming that you could help me from some other... The vast majority of people that come to chiropractors come for just that reason. They have a condition...
Let me finish, please. They have a condition which has failed consistently over 10, 15, 20 or 30 years to respond to medical treatment. Any condition.
Give me one. please it really doesn't matter give a condition asthma okay allergies menstrual cramps arthritis conditions which have failed to respond to medicine consistently over the years asthma yeah let's let's point out that seven out of ten americans over age 40 are suffering from a chronic disease of some kind which fails to respond to the ministrations of medicine it's all well and good for our doctor to sit here and say he doesn't believe there's any scientific validity what background he would have he admits he knows nothing about chiropractic but he's already made a decision it's not valid if medicine worked nobody would ever go to a chiropractor in the first place all of these people you're talking about come to chiropractors because they're medical rejects and they say doctor of chiropractic can you help this disease that disease the other disease tell me about can you cure asthma tell me about or all right let me finish whether it's asthma whether it's arthritis menstrual cramps any of these conditions patients do go to chiropractors to have those disease is treated but the chiropractor teaches them that we don't treat disease okay tell me about asthma I have told you about asthma we do not treat asthma we do not cure asthma if I've got asthma what are you gonna do for me if you don't I'm gonna do nothing if you're asthma but I'm gonna play with this my spine I hope not if you want it played with go to massage par if that's what turns you on okay You come to me, I will do a specific chiropractic analysis of your spine to see if there is a subluxation damaging nerves. If there is, without regard to whether it causes asthma or not, or any other disease or not, I will gently ease that bone back into place, restore normal nerve function. Okay, will that easing it back into place, restoring a normal nerve function, would that help my asthma?
It will help your body to function normally. So maybe eventually it might help my asthma. Let me finish. Tens of thousands of patients every year, once nerve supply is restored, of course recover from asthma.
There is no condition you can name which the body itself cannot cure. Chiropractors don't cure anything. All of chiropractic is based upon a recognition that there is built into the human body the ability to recover from disease, whether it's the common cold or asthma or any other disease.
Let me finish, please. What is called spontaneous remission, self-cure. It happens with chiropractors or without, with medical doctors or without, with acupuncturists or without. The body has the ability to heal, but the healing ability of the body is lessened, is damaged, when some of the vital nerve trunks are pinched off.
Okay, Reggie. The body then has a better chance to function if there are no nerve trunks. Occasionally I'm going to interrupt you very professionally. It's nothing personal. But let me say this.
You use the word cure as I was taught what cure was, okay, from Webster. or Funk and Waggler, whatever dictionary you have. By going this way or that way, you're doing something to me. What are you doing? You're treating me, right?
Not really. Oh, you're doing something to change my regular structure. Yes. Are you not?
Yes. So that's a treatment. What I'm doing is trying to allow your irregular structure to become regular.
But that's a treatment. That is a treatment. No, treatment, by definition, you're into dictionaries. Treatment is what one does to counteract a disease.
You treat a cold. You treat asthma. I don't treat a cold. If you came to me, I wouldn't need to know if you had a cold or asthma or neither one. Well, what the hell am I coming to you for?
You're coming because you're mistaken about chiropractic. And when you get there, I sit you down and say, Gentry, if you want that disease treated, you're in the wrong place. I don't do that. But how many, what about those thousands of people who have the asthma, and they're coming to you no matter what you sit down and talk to them?
That's right. And I sit down and I explain to them we do not treat asthma. People do come for that reason. But they may want it anyway, right? If they want their disease treated, they have to go and see one of these fine doctors or one of their colleagues who treat asthma.
You don't treat anything. That is correct. By turning the spine, messing around with this, there's no such thing as a treatment, right? Well, again, forgive my correcting your language.
The spine is already messed around. We're un-messing it. Okay.
We're allowing normal nerve function. And that's not a treatment? No, it absolutely is not a treatment. However.
Once nerve supply is normal, if every organ is functioning properly, of course the body has the ability to recover. Who do you think cures your colds? Your medications? Yes.
Absolutely not. In my opinion it does. Well, you're absolutely right. As long as it makes me well. Would you accept?
The... That's an intern, it's over there. Would you accept the opinion of the two learned medical doctors on cures for a cold? I wouldn't want to change it. The only cure...
I would like to think that the medicine is curing my cold. They will tell you... I don't think they're going to go to business. Believe me, they will tell you the only cure for a cold is your own body recovering from within. Healing takes place from within the body.
Doctors don't cure things. Before we go to our break, I want to ask, doctors don't cure things. Of course not.
They try and keep you alive long enough for your body to heal itself. Doctor, you don't cure things? Well, I would agree with the cold. But what about other things? I think that there are a few...
conditions which we can say we can cure for instance pernicious anemia can be cured with monthly injections of b12 in so far as by cure you mean something that something that you are doing that restores heart disease some type of heart disease or asthma or something of this nature you can certainly help uh many kinds of heart disease you can help many you can help asthma uh When you get into real cures, by meaning permanent cures, that gets a little trickier. Sure does. What about corrections, surgical corrections, Dr. Williams? Does that help the cure, or eventually can a person get cured by some type of surgical correction?
Oh, yeah. In surgery, you often remove the focus of disease, and that does produce a cure. There's no doubt.
out about that whatsoever. That's true. If you have a bad arm and you cut it off, you don't have a bad arm anymore.
My impression, though, is that I've done some industrial work and the people who go to chiropractors go to them because they feel that they're bone doctors and they can help their aches and pains and things of that type. I'm here to learn as well as the public. I'd like to ask Dr. Romberg what type of machines and so forth, auxiliary things, do you use other than manipulation with the hand?
Well, Well, there's two things I'd like to respond to. The first is that we do know manipulation. Manipulation is something other than what chiropractors are trained in doing.
I think osteopaths learn to manipulate. Chiropractors give very specific spinal adjustments to remove the subluxations. And the other point that you mentioned about the machines, this physical therapy and this sort of thing is really not part of chiropractic at all. We have no use for anything like that in our office.
In fact, we believe that the physical therapist should be the ones to administer physical therapy and not the chiropractors who are not properly trained in it. Good evening. Phone power, your question, a comment. You're on the air. I just wanted to know what could be an alternative for me to go with now, you know, because I really don't know where to turn.
You know, he's just given me this information that I have a spinal curvature and that it could become worse, you know. And I don't. really know what to do should i get a second opinion or okay would you hold on a minute uh dr williams uh if i were in this young lady's position i would go to see an orthopedic surgeon if she has a curvature of the spine and certainly that is the individual qualified to treat her condition any symptoms that would suggest anything that would lead to paralysis curvature of the spine many people have curvature of the spine sometimes they produce symptoms sometimes they don't if they're producing symptoms then I would see an orthopedic surgeon yeah except if we go with an orthopedic surgeon we get into more scare tactics and the thing that scares the dickens out of me is spinal surgery so I just don't know what's going on in this case it's very difficult to suggest by this telephone information it might be a very good idea to consult another chiropractor we're automatically assuming that this chiropractor is not giving good information and I don't even know if he is or not but if he's not It may be an idea to consult another chiropractor rather than rush the surgery.
So you're saying consult another chiropractor, and he's saying consult another, not a chiropractor, but... An orthopedic surgeon. Orthopedic surgeon, and you...
Well, orthopedic surgeons don't necessarily just operate. More than half their work, considerably more than half their work, does not involve surgery. That's true, but on the spine, there is no way that an orthopedic surgeon can correct a subluxation of the spine. They will attempt to, through surgery... through back braces which don't correct anything and I really think if this were me in this position the first thing I would do is seek another chiropractic opinion and I'd stay away from the orthopedic surgeons for something which is in fact not a disease the curvature of the spine in and of itself is not a serious or dangerous thing and this language of paralysis inability to walk sounds as though it's coming just as a and not related to anything that's happening in the woman's spine.
It bothers me considerably. Great. That subluxation of the spine.
Now, you say the orthopedic surgeon can't do anything about it, but you can. Now, that is where the chiropractic and the medical men differ. The subluxation, we feel that any pressure put on the spine, on the nerve, actually produces damage to the tissue itself. But it's readily recognizable by a certain location of that spinous process. Well, you say that in one breath.
Now, can you tell me what subluxation that you're describing is that produces pressure on a nerve and yet produces no actual symptoms? Oh, you have just described it. You have just described it yourself.
In one breath you're saying we recognize it and we can certainly get rid of it, or orthopedic surgeons can. And a little while earlier you said there's no validity to the practice of chiropractic. which is what you are now claiming orthopedic surgeons are doing.
You see, when chiropractors started doing this, orthopedic surgeons were the ones who said there's no validity, there's no such thing as a misalignment of the bone damaging nerves. Now they're attempting to do that, which a few years ago they said couldn't happen. There's a whole new branch of orthopedic medicine now trying to imitate what the chiropractor does, a branch called physiatry. And they manipulate the spine to correct these subluxations.
They're not very good at it. It's a part-time job for them. They're not full-time professionals at it.
But that's what chiropractic is. You still haven't described a subluxation. What is a subluxation?
A subluxation is a condition in which one of these vertebrae loses its proper relationships with the vertebrae above and the vertebrae below. A slight misplacement, misalignment of a vertebrae, which does make the hole between the vertebrae just a tiny bit smaller and irritates the nerves. Now, if we have a sensory nerve damaged or irritated, we might get immediate pain, immediate muscle spasm, the so-called pinched nerve syndrome.
On the other hand, it might well be a motor nerve that is damaged or a trophic nerve, in which case the organ at the other end of that nerve may show no symptoms at all for 10, 20, or 30 years. But that subluxation should be corrected whether it has symptoms or not. We see a lot of football injuries where players get a pinched nerve in the neck, damaging nerve supply to the arm and the arm is partially paralyzed.
and everybody says that's terrible because it stops the game. But meantime, if they have the same injury that damages the nerve supply to the heart or the lungs or some other vital organ, we can't see any symptoms, and so we ignore it. Chiropractic says let's correct all subluxations of the spine, whether they show symptoms or not.
So that's our field. And everybody that comes in and has a subluxation of the spine, so you would treat everybody in the world, really? Not necessarily. No, not everybody has one.
But when there is one, it should be corrected. I would like to see chiropractors practice on a preventive basis to maintain health. Let's say you come in to me and I examine your spine and I do find one of these subluxations.
Now, I don't just adjust it and say, okay, that's the end of the problem. I say, go on home and let me check you next week. Next week you come back and your spine is still clear. I say, good, now go away for a month. And if you come back after a month and that subluxation is back again, I will adjust it again.
Unfortunately, when people leave the chiropractor... usually they go back and do the very thing which caused the subluxation in the first place. So it does tend to come back again and again, and it needs correcting periodically. But no, not everybody has a subluxation, and the chiropractor can only help those that do. Okay, let's take another phone call at 367-7211.
Good evening, phone call, your question or comment, you're on the air. Yes, thank you. Go ahead, please.
Go ahead, please. Yes, yes. My question is, my statement is directed to Dr. Terry Runberg. Yes.
And I was in an accident with my daughter about two months ago, and I went to a regular MD, and I had an x-ray taken, and nothing really showed up. So I went to work about two days later, and my back hurt me so bad I had to sit down. So finally I went home.
So I went with my daughter over to Dr. Terry Roddenberg, where his associate, Dr. Charles Wallace, you know, worked under the back of my neck and my nerves, and I've been going there ever since for the last two months. And my back has just been wonderful. Okay, what was the question to him?
Pardon me? You had a question. What was the question? Oh, I know, but just a statement.
Okay, thank you. Let's discourage testimonies. testimonials on i don't care on a little bit of everybody whether it's uh one way or the other i think we're really want to deal with questions and answers 367-7211 good Your phone power, you're on the air.
Your question or comment? Yes, I would like to direct a question to a doctor, please. A medical doctor or a chiropractic doctor?
An MD. Okay. My question would be, if I would come into your office with a symptom of an abdominal pain, what would you do for me?
Hello, are you still there? Yes. Jack? Yeah. Well, first I would get a careful history of how the abdominal pain began, how it behaved, where it went, where it was located, how strong it was, how frequently it came, and so on.
And then I would examine your abdomen. And following that, if I felt that I needed some further test to determine what it was, I might... suggest that we get an x-ray if I thought it might be an ulcer or get a barium enema if I thought it might be a tumor.
And then once I had made the diagnosis, I would take corrective steps. Okay, may I ask you what you would treat it with? That would depend upon what it was. I would obviously treat gallstones different than I would ulcers different than I would a tumor of the colon. Why are you asking?
Are you leading up to something? Yes, I am. Okay, what are you leading up to?
Well, I'm leading up to, I had... A very bad abdominal pain, and it got so bad sometimes that I would double over in pain. I could not walk or sit or anything. It got progressively worse.
Okay, so I, uh, a girlfriend of mine... mine suggested that I go to a chiropractor and I thought she was crazy, you know, but I went to a chiropractor and the first time I went, they x-rayed my spine and, you know, they showed me on the x-ray where my subluxation was. was and I could clearly see that that you know it was really out of line well when when the chiropractor went to adjust me it was so painful because it had been out for long he couldn't get it all the way adjusted and therefore I had to come back in a couple days the second time he finished adjusting my spine and it was corrected and I have not had that problem since okay thank you while it wasn't necessarily technically a testimony our testimony testimonial rather, she's saying that she went to a medical doctor, as you know.
Do you have that problem, either Jack or Dr. Williams, as far as people who are not satisfied with a medical doctor and they decide to go to a chiropractic? Yes, yes, there's no doubt about that. And what have been the results, to your knowledge? Well, I think the results are where your faith lies. I think there's such a thing as laying on the hand, laying on the hands and healing and that type of thing.
And if you believe strongly enough in an individual, a person, or a system, then that individual can help you. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. It has nothing to do with scientific value of what they're doing.
But with faith comes help and healing. Terry? You want Reggie to answer that? Okay, Reggie. I just was thinking, while we were talking about faith, and there's no question faith or belief in a doctor brings about miracle changes and symptoms.
And apparently this woman had so much faith in the medical doctor, she went to him first. And with all of that faith, it didn't do anything. So now she goes to the person in whom she had less faith, so little that she went as a last resort and got a miracle cure and quote, we say, wow, that's because she had faith. This faith thing, of course, there is something in the placebo effect. If it weren't for the placebo effect.
Most doctors would be out of business, particularly medical doctors. But we cannot say that every patient who gets well because their subluxation is corrected did so out of faith. That's absolute nonsense.
As a matter of fact, I adjusted a paralyzed hamster a couple of years ago. Now, this little hamster didn't have any belief or faith in chiropractic. It was paralyzed because it got caught in its little trap wheel. It caught its leg and it got spun and got its spine subluxed.
and it was paralyzed from there down and we just adjusted the vertebra back into place and the thing got up and ran around now that hamster had no faith of course faith plays a part in all doctors practices but we cannot say that everybody who gets well as a result of chiropractic care did so through faith and everybody who got well under medical doctors care got well through But doesn't it play some type of percentage in getting healed? In all cases, medical or chiropractic, what's happening is medicine is claiming that their people get healthy through science, and ours get healthy through faith, and that's patent nonsense. Is that patent nonsense, Jack? Well, he said that medicine people claim that, and I'm sure that some medicine people do claim that.
But I think, on the other hand, that... Most physicians realize that people get better for many reasons. Sometimes, hopefully, it's because of what we do for them. Sometimes it's because they have faith in us, as has been pointed out.
And sometimes just because the body has a way of getting better. So I wouldn't feel that all doctors claim that we heal all things. No, neither would I, Jack. I didn't mean to imply all, but, you know, every time that we hear of a chiropractor having a patient who gets well, some medical doctor is willing to say, well, it must have been faith because I'm convinced before I start that chiropractic doesn't work.
When they go in with that kind of a closed mind, they're not going to learn anything. No matter how many times they come on television and say, we're here to learn, their mind is totally closed from word one, and there's nothing that's going to convince them otherwise. I get the impression you just implied something.
You just... I said something to Dr. Williams that would give him a chance to get an editorial reply. Well, Dr. Williams has been saying it all evening. Okay, Dr. Williams, do you have something to say in that last remark? No, I have nothing to say except that there is no scientific proof on record anywhere that manipulation of the spine per se cures illness.
I take it, Dr. Williams, that you have personally done research on this matter. Yes, I have. May I ask where?
Don't say oh yes, because he hasn't. Where did you do your research? I have done research prior to this particular program.
I'm sure you have. Where did you do your research? In the St. Louis Public Library. And what magazines, journals, or publications did you read? Because there's public out there that have access to this, and if there's untruth being told here, they have a right to know.
Where did you research this in the public library? Do you have scientific proof that it does help? That is not the question. You tell us that you have scientific proof there is no validity. I suggest, sir, that you're saying a fabric of untruths, that you have done no research.
Okay, Reggie, before we get into stripping each individual's credibility. I was not aware that we had characters on a program of this type who would make such gross accusations. You have made the accusations, sir, that you have done research and found no validity.
The research shows that there was no... And I say if you have done such research, you have proven chiropractic to be effective. But Reggie, let me ask you an objective question.
Maybe we can get it here. Is it possible that Dr. Williams'research is his interpretation? No, sir.
It is only possible that he has done no research. That is the only possibility. Well, he seems to have notes over there. Good. Then let's hear from him.
Let's hear what research he did. I'll tell you what. We're talking at this time. time i take excuse me extensive medical investigation has failed to show any scientific foundation and when comes this statement this comes from the encyclopedia okay gentlemen can i gentlemen gentlemen please before we go on and when we come back we will clear this one up here i don't want to have either your credibility question or your credibility question we'll clear that up right After these brief announcements, as we continue, we will be right back following these brief announcements. Believe it or not, Reggie, thank you very much.
And I guess basically as we were talking about in the break, that there is questioned the whole purpose of what is chiropractic. Part of the credibility of a chiropractic comes in to a focus both on the behalf of a medical doctor and on behalf of patients, people who've never experienced, out of curiosity, some out of other problems. And in part of what is chiropractic, in talking to Reggie, and talking to the doctors and talking to Terry, I told them that the whole thing about what is are the myths. And the myths, as we've had them to be, is part of what is chiropractic, and everyone agreed.
So we're back at 3677211. I want you two gentlemen here at this point just to make a fast conclusion here. We had a little disagreement on questioning his credibility as far as his research. And we just want to clean that up as nice as we can.
Dr. Gold questioned my research, I gave him my source. Just that simple. No, you didn't give me your source.
You said I read it in an encyclopedia, which is not research at all. The charge of the encyclopedia, I have it written for the definition of chiropractic... My point is this......and the fact that there is no scientific validity for it. Where did you get that statement from?
From the encyclopedia. Did you research it to find out if it's true? You believe everything you read in some... No, but... encyclopedia in some encyclopedia that was they didn't research it they asked the american medical association what is your source that says it is scientific basis i'm glad you asked and i will tell you but first let me say this that organized political medicine has for 60 years conducted a fraudulent campaign against chiropractic they're now under federal lawsuit and you yourself may join that suit as a defendant if you so choose for making these blatant claims that chiropractic has no validity There was research done in the University of Pennsylvania in 1924 by a Dr. Henry, chief pathologist, who examined some 11,000 diseased organs to find relationships between the diseased organ and the segmental level of spinal distortion related to that organ.
He found direct correlation between spinal damage and diseased organs in all except 8 out of 11,000, written up in Medical Times magazine in 1924. Let me continue. You want to know where my research is? That's part of it. The University of Colorado has, for the past three years, been doing research which has proven conclusively that vertebral subluxation damages nerves with a resultant damage to the organs at the end of those nerves.
It was done in the Cleveland College of Chiropractic in Kansas City, Missouri, 20 years ago, in which experiments were done on rabbits causing... deliberately surgical subluxations on rabbits and following the disease process which resulted, then correcting the subluxations and watching the rabbits heal. This information, this research is so well documented, any physician who is the least bit interested could track it down and find it. Well, how come the American Medical Association hasn't tracked it down or accepted it? Simply because they're out to sell a product.
Their product is medicine. I feel that there's no question that nerves do get pinched in the spinal cord, and I've had one in my shoulder for some time. There's no question about that. The question is, is what kind of conclusions do you therefore draw from that? I was very interested to hear your analogy between chiropractic and, let's say, nutrition.
Nutrition, certainly it's true that if you have an imbalance in your diet, that does affect or can affect your health. And your analogy was the imbalance in the spinal cord, but rather nonspecifically affecting your health. Absolutely, yes, very nonspecifically. The problem is, it seems to me, that many people, including, it seems to me, And by your own admission, many chiropractors may therefore say that this imbalance in your subluxation has caused some, let's say, liver trouble or some heart trouble or some other kind of trouble.
And often the patient has no way of judging whether this is true or not. If I get a manipulation to my... neck and my pain in my arm goes away, I can understand that. But if my heart isn't bothering me, that I know of, and I... I get an adjustment and I'm told that my heart will be better.
That doesn't seem right. It's not provable. Right. Nor does it seem to me that one can say that this will prevent you from getting heart trouble. But would you concur with me that if a nerve is damaged, then ultimately the organs at the end of the nerve must suffer?
And it might be a good idea to correct the nerve damage now if we can, rather than wait. Well, I think that's complicated. There's no question that when a sensory nerve is damaged, that you may feel pain.
I don't know whether that, how much that's going to affect the end organ. But might not, but don't you think all the nerves should have a chance to function properly? That's all I'm saying. Not offering it as a treatment or a cure, merely the fact that the body functions better if its nerves aren't damaged.
If I were to suggest to you that your body works better if your arteries aren't tied off, you'd say, well of course. And that's true of nerves not being damaged. And for organized medicine, I'm glad to see you're one of the enlightened physicians who at least is willing to listen, but organized medicine for years has conducted a campaign of self-serving propaganda to say don't go to a chiropractor. God forbid chiropractors should help people. That'll make the physicians look bad.
And I suggest, Dr. Williams, that you have been reading an awful lot of AMA propaganda and not doing any private research. If you were to check for yourself, I would suggest this. You have Dr. Ron Berg, who is a chiropractor in this city.
May I ask if you would take all of, not all of your patients, just take your patients who fail to respond to your treatment as well as you would like. Take only your failure patients and send them to Dr. Ronberg and monitor them in an experiment. I'm not guaranteeing they'll get better, but don't you think you'd be interested in finding out if they would?
Rather than condemning his practice blanket and saying it doesn't work, why don't you check and find out? I have not condemned chiropractic at all. Well, you said it had no validity. Yes, I did. I said it had no scientific validity.
You don't think that's a condemnation? According to the sources that I have read. Well, may I suggest, sir, that you check other sources?
Now, I would not be interested in, uh, checking it out. Number one, Dr. Romberg has said that, uh, quite a few of the, uh, chiropractics do not practice pure chiropractic. And you said yourself, you condemn your own profession by saying that you're bored.
I also... The chiropractic board members were... Some....doing things which they should not do. Some.
Don't misquote me as saying all. Illegal. I will also say some medical doctors are blatant quacks. Yes, but I don't think you would say that about the persons who actually... I did....rule and govern our organization and our state medicine.
I don't think we have on our board anything of that type. It's time you looked into them. It seems to me I would suggest that the powers that rule the entire medical profession are corrupt.
You know, we have a program here. Okay, let me say this. What is chiropractic?
We're not going to get behind the walls finding out who's corrupt and who's not corrupt. Isn't it interesting that to find out what is chiropractic, you bring in anti-chiropractors? I agree with you, but not to the point of calling somebody a crook, not to the point of using the word quackery, because even I personally as a host stayed away from that. I'm not going to have that, okay? You can talk, you can discuss things.
We don't want to get behind questioning the individual's credibility as we've done. I think we've done enough on this subject. You do that the moment you bring on chiropractic and have been investigating it. No, you're not letting me make a very valid point. We've dwelled on that.
Let's take some more phone calls. I don't think so. You have said we're going to discuss chiropractic and bring on to the show non-chiropractors and anti-chiropractors. who admittedly don't know what the subject is. Okay, we have 30 minutes yet for them to find out.
If we keep dwelling on this damn subject, we'll never find out, will we? Interesting that you don't want me to get that point across. Good evening, phone power. Your question or comment?
You're on the air. Yes, for Dr. Gold, please, or Dr. Romberg. Is it true that newborn babies and infants should be checked by a chiropractor for subluxations that might have happened in childbirth?
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the... The obvious trend for its natural childbirth and home birth in this country is significant in the fact that people are seeking out a more natural approach, possibly because of side effects or problems which have stemmed from delivering children in the hospitals. Recently there was a study by Dr. Abraham Talbin at the University of Boston's medical school.
He's a leading pathologist. and bacteriologist at that university and he was assigned the task of researching sudden infant death syndrome and and this is commonly referred to as crib death and he discovered in doing autopsies of seven out of eight of the crib death victims that these victims these infants who have died mysteriously have nerve pressure in their upper cervical spine and he believes that this is cutting off vital function to the lung tissue and that the children and the infants are dying from respiratory failure. So coming from a leading pathologist such as Dr. Abraham Talbin, I think that it is very significant to chiropractic and for the people who are desiring to learn more about chiropractic, that they investigate the possibility of having all of their children examined as soon as possible after delivery.
One of the things that he thinks is the The cause of this multiple vertebral subluxation or this pressure on the spinal cord in the upper part of the neck is because of mishandling at birth and because of forceps or suppressed labors, because of pills that are given to the mothers to stimulate or to speed up the delivery process. We've interfered with this process so much, we've turned it into a disease process and we're sending women off to the hospitals to bear their children.