we are absolutely thrilled uh to have Simon with us today uh the way we'll do this format will be about an hour and a half um a little bit will be dialogue and then really the floor is yours to ask him any questions uh it is so fun to see so many friendly faces uh this one is for our hcli alums I say it well and um uh and let me just quickly go through a little quick intro um so thank you for joining us I think when you left your program we said the learning doesn't stop there and this is exactly what we mean uh by this I have this plugin because I know I'm not going to have any time to do it later which is our upcoming programs uh we do have four that are coming up uh we have our this is new design your work life um and that's with Bill Bernett from Stanford we're kind of his partner here in Asia and so uh this is all about kind of using design principles uh to create a happier better life it's a different type of program for us and from anything that you probably have done yourselves with us because it's only two days um and so it's quite quick and we're going to do many um uh modules of this throughout the year um the second one some of you are Lums um I'm looking around the room of our HR leaders program uh we've decided to do this a couple of times this year we have a HR leaders program coming up in November um aflp and I know there are a lot of people here from aflp um which is our program for our financial leaders that when launches in November and finally this is a new one for us an Aion leaders Business program um which has been sponsored with Hitachi who wants us to build something for the Aion region uh that has that focus and so that's going to be something that's interesting um it's new uh and uh we're kind of really excited about putting together that curriculum okay so for without further Ado let's go to the next next slide uh you know I I'm so happy to see so many of you here when I Google Simon sinck in 0 41 seconds I get 7.2 million responses it's true this morning I just did it um and uh so there's so much that's known about him and when it was shared uh that he was coming uh he's here as a guest for a Formula 1 week and I had to get us in there so we're really excited to have you here uh Simon's written uh a number of books and uh I guess the other well you're three there he's actually written five um and I know that uh some of you have read some I hope that you brought some for to be autographed um but he also has the fourth most viewed Ted Talk do you know that yeah yeah which pretty amazing you know I told my son that this morning and I said you know you can come if you want I said you know he said I said fourth most viewed Ted Talk I said 62 million views he goes but I haven't seen it I'm like you better go watch it so I sent it to him okay wonderful so um first question uh Simon for you is you know there there were 7.2 million results uh that came up um what what's something about you that we wouldn't find on Google I mean there's are like about 18.4 million things excellent um I think I think most people don't realize that I I consider myself an artist not a business person um and I love an artist's sensibility um and um the idea of you know art I think an artist sensibility is about managing chaos you know I think that's where creativity comes from it's the ability to find patterns in the middle of insanity and it's not just fine arts or creative arts but you know entrepreneurs as well not all and it's it's I think it's also just as an aside you know there's a difference between a small business owner and an entrepreneur a small business business owner owns a small business an entrepreneur solves problems and you have entrepreneurs insides corporations as well you know and they don't necessarily own businesses to me an entrepreneur is a mindset and it's a creative mindset um and it's all about chaos and managing chaos um so I think most people don't realize that about me that I I Define myself as as a as a as an artist um and that's how I sort of solve problems as well excellent um with the designer uh mindset I love that um you know you uh I can't help but ask this question we were just at a a different talk and I was kind of sitting there like I really want to ask this question but I really want to get into this his talk how did you get into this space you you studied cultural anthropology anthropology yeah yeah well I mean this is this is anthropology I mean even when I was a student you know where many of my colleagues were fascinated by sort of like the Bongo Bongo and you know some other Amazonian tribe that had 17 people in it you know that made no sense to me um I wanted to I was much more interested in this sort of our own lives and our own cultures so you know I lived in my own petri dish um I didn't have to travel far and wide for for for field work I would go to bars and watch mating rituals and I did an independent the yeah it's really fun by the way you can do it if you're so inclined if you go to bars and restaurants to try and guess which couples are on a first date just by reading just by reading the body language it's easier it's easier than you think but it it's fun you know I find that entertaining and uh um uh or I did an independent study while I was in college on self-confidence and leadership ability because both people people who are secure and insecure make both good and bad leaders so what's the correlation and so you know I was in student government and what they don't know is I wrote papers on all of them um on all the other people that I worked with so I I was always in it um and I've so I've always been curious about people and human behavior um and so uh I had an experience I I I was I started a business myself I had a marketing consultancy and superficially everything was fine we had a good business um we had great clients you know better clients than I should have for the the years I'd been in business we did good work um and I got to the point in after about four years in business that I didn't want to do it anymore and um The Joy had gone and I was very embarrassed because superficially everything was good and so I don't want to tell anybody like oh I don't want to go to work anymore because because it sounded like oh poor you you know and so I kept it to myself and if any of you have ever gone through any kind of Darkness if you keep it to yourself it just gets worse and that's what happened to me uh it got worse and worse and worse and I got paranoid and like I was convinced I was going to go bankrupt I was convinced I was going to get evicted I mean like all of the insanity none of which was rational um and uh and I was really good at lying hiding and faking and pretending that I was happier more in control and more successful than I really felt and it wasn't until a very close friend of mine came to me and said something's very wrong I don't know what it is but something's very wrong and I came clean and you know when you have a friend who cares about you it is a and you feel like you have someone who's got your back you find the energy and the courage to solve what seemed to be unsolvable problems and that's what what happened to me once I had a friend uh who was co-conspirator in my in my pain um all of my energy wanted to find a solution and the solution that I found which it then became the Golden Circle and start with Y like I knew what I did and I knew how I did it but I couldn't tell you why and I realized that was the the crisis of passion I'd lost my passion because I didn't know why and the model that I put together which has now become a thing um was only designed to help me that's it and it worked so then I showed it to my friends and my friends started making phra life changes and starting businesses and quitting jobs and and then they said well you share it with our friends and I literally would go to someone's apartment in New York City and stand in the living room and talk about a thing called start with why and help people find their why for 100 bucks on the side so it really was totally organic this wasn't supposed to be my career that's an incredible story completely not expected a great friend continues to be yeah absolutely I mean I love um one of the things that you talk about is that leadership can be learned we start a lot of our programs like that to talk about that there are qualities that you can learn and you can hone your leadership skills um is there you know kind of going a little bit deeper what what what what do you think are the major attributes of leader right now yeah and by the way leadership is a learnable practicable skill I love that um we are firm Believers but yeah I mean that that's what it is um uh so you know much is made like you see these articles in you know various business Publications you know Vision Charisma you know I know some amazing leaders who are't big Visionaries and I know some amazing leaders who they don't seem to have a lot of Charisma either like they're kind of like quiet and sit in a corner right um and yet they are great leaders um having met a lot of some a lot of them with various and diversified person alties the one characteristic that I'm very very comfortable saying that all of the leaders I've met have is courage um and you know you could rank Integrity there but I think it takes courage to have integrity you know to do the right thing in the face of overwhelming pressure to do something different to speak truth to power you know all those Integrity things that takes courage um it is very difficult to lead you know I think we we we celebrate it but I don't think people realize just how hard it is um I the only analogy I would offer is parenting you know having a kid is so fun but raising a kid is excruciating sorry did I say that it was a little too quick you [Laughter] little um uh it's really difficult and it's often thankless and it's often lonely and it's often exhausting and it's often infuriating it's often frustrating and you screw it up on a regular basis and you're like that's it I've screwed up my kid for life you know um um and yet for some reason it's one of the most rewarding if not the most rewarding thing you'll ever do in your life for these unexpected glimmers you know when you catch your 5-year-old sharing with your four-year-old when you check to make sure your 8-year-old is sleeping to find out that they're under the blankets with a flashlight reading you know um the first job the first school play you know all of these unexpected glimmers make all the sacrifice and exhaustion worth it and Leadership is the same you know leadership is um uh lonely very often um thankless very often um unfair like if everything goes right you have to give away all the credit and everything goes wrong you have to take all the accountability well that sucks um uh uh but it is those unexpected little glimmers like when your team rallies around to help them to help each other when someone when somebody's struggling or when they solve an unsolvable problem and you sit back and you be like yeah that's my team you know and it makes it all worth it um did you did you did you ever does the do we know did you ever teach why leaders exist why we have leaders no this is interesting what's that yeah right exactly exactly yeah uh no but the the you know um there was a a movement for like five minutes where a couple of organizations attempted to be leaderless oh yeah right or like the 99% movement in the United States was the leaderless and the minute organization says we don't believe in leaders I guarantee you it's going to collapse um and not because it's not idealistically uh appealing it's because it violates our biology and our anthropology it just it's not going to work we are biologically hierarchical Anon um and this is not a bad thing it is born out of necessity and evolution to help us survive so if you go back um in time like 50,000 years ago um early Homo Sapien for thousand tens of thousands of years uh lived in populations no bigger than 150 people um didn't change until we started farming about 12,000 years ago um and there's a very practical problem that exists which is as individuals we're junk we're not very smart we're not strong but in groups we're amazing we're incredible we're you know solving problems and lifting heavy objects in in groups um and these are very dangerous times and so we have to rely on each other um and so we make a deal like if there's danger wake me you know um but these are all also austere times we're all hungry and the hunters go out they bring back food and they dump it on the ground we all rush into eat because we're all hungry and if you're lucky enough to be built like a rugby player you can shove your way to the front of the line if you're the artist of the tribe you get an elbow in the face and this is not a very conducive system to cooperation because if you punch me in the face this afternoon probably not going to wake you and alert you to Danger tonight and so the tribe is going to get killed and the species is going to die and so we evolved into hierarchical animals we're constantly assessing and judging each other you know um where we sit in the pecking order and sometimes that pecking order is formal like we have rank structures in our company needs and so I know who outranks me and I know where I sit in the pcking order um and when someone outranks me we show difference right um like if you're a senior and you left your coat in the other room someone will go get your coat for you and if you're a junior and you left your coat in the other room you getting your own coat that's just how it works right and if somebody famous or somebody that you know that is recognizable so social status now you'll hold the door open for them and you'll come home and you'll leave and be like I hold the door open for Sten spiel bir you know like you're going to brag about doing something for someone that they can perfectly well do themselves because we like to do things for people who are rank Us in the social hierarchy right um and so once we assess that someone is Alpha to us we we show difference and so we allow our Alphas to eat first our Alphas get first choice of meat and first choice of mate so I may not get to eat first but I'm guaranteed a meal and I don't get a nail bow in the face good system for cooperation right um and this exists today by the way um if you a senior in the organization you'll get a better parking space you'll get a nicer office you'll get a higher salary and no one absolutely zero people are morally offended by those perks not a single human being is morally offended that someone who's more senior than you in the organization gets a higher salary we might think you're an idiot but we're not morally offended by it right but here's the best part the group is is not dumb we don't give our Alphas all these perks for nothing just cuz you're senior there's a deep-seated social contract that when danger threatens the tribe the person who's actually stronger actually smarter actually better fed there's an expectation that you're going to rush towards the danger to protect us that's why we gave you all those perks they are not free and so we don't mind that our senior people have more but when danger threat with the organization we want to know that you're going to protect us even sometimes before yourself and then we will give you our love and our loyalty where the social contract breaks down is when the leader puts thems first so we've seen this happen many of times when there's scandals in organizations where a leader makes tons of money which we don't mind but when there is a bad economy they announce huge L rounds of layoffs and the leader keep keeps their fat salary or worse there's no bad economy we just missed our arbitrary projections that we told the analy so we're very profitable just not as profitable as we promised so you lose your job and that's where the outrage comes from the outrage comes from the fact that you've violated the deep-seated social contract so the reason I say leadership is difficult and the reason I say leadership requires courage is because we all want the perks of leadership but how many of us are willing to fulfill our responsib as leaders and that's an entirely different subject and where you command love and loyalty is if people feel seen people feel heard people feel understood people feel like they matter and that you care about them as a human being and that they don't care they'll give you all the difference in the world I'll I'll I'll finish with one story how many many of you heard the story I've told about the ceramic cup Styrofoam cup no good it'll be a wonderful and new for everybody here um the true story there was a former under Secretary of Defense who was invited to speak at a large conference like a thousand people and in the middle of his remarks he was holding a cup of coffee in a styrofoam cup and he and he looks down and he smiles and he interrupts himself and he says you know last year I I was still the under secretary and I spoke at this exact same cence and last year they flew me here business class there was someone waiting for me at the airport to drive me to the hotel someone had already checked me into the hotel and I just went back you know they took me up to my room I came down in the morning there was somebody waiting for me in the lobby and they brought me to the same venue they took me through to the back entrance and they took me into a green room and they handed me a cup of coffee in a beautiful ceramic cup he says I'm no longer the under secretary I flew here coach I took a taxi from the hotel to the from the airport to the hotel I took another taxi this morning to the venue I came in the front door found my way backstage and I when I asked somebody do you have any coffee they pointed to the coffee machine in the corner and I poured myself a cup of coffee into this here Styrofoam cup was never meant for me it was meant for the position I held I deserve a styrofoam cup and the great leaders all recognize that you can enjoy the ceramic cup you can enjoy the first class you can enjoy the nicer office absolutely enjoy it but they're not giving it to you they're giving it to the position you hold either in the company or in the social hierarchy we all deserve a styrofoam cup and for the leaders that REM are remember that you'll do just fine you're reminding me so earlier today um Simon spoke to the Civil Service College uh to some of our senior um civil servants and in the Civil Service people are referred to as DS PS Etc I remember asking the question well you know isn't it nicer if we just say Pauline or you know Etc they said No it's it's actually it's a reminder that it's the position uh it's not it's not about them right personally it's about the position so kind of that story reminds me of that yeah okay um a few other questions and we've talked we know that we've kind of gone through this crazy covid situation um technology another kind of big wave of change has disrupted the workforce um what do you feel are like some challenges or um suggestions that you would have uh for us I mean it's a group of very very senior leaders here uh with companies Business Leaders um what suggestions would you have for us to deal and cope with some of the changing tides um as Business Leaders I mean there we know some of them uh a generation and population that doesn't want to come back to work yeah um uh a generation largely generation that has a different definition of what full-time employment is like who says I have to work full-time for one company I can work full-time for two companies but we pay you your full salary and we pay you benefits you can't work for anybody else why not I mean I don't think that's been resolved of what the definition of full-time employment is especially when I don't keep normal hours um what the definition of of the value of a job is like some people want to have ambition and they want to move up the ranks and some people don't just want to get to work and make a bit of money and pay their bills and they don't really care about progress up you know they want to do good work and be treated well they still take pride in their work they're not lazy they just they're not career Hunters you know that's something different but yes quiet quitting is also a thing which I have an exception I I don't like the term quiet quitting because I think it's nonsense and I'll tell you why quiet quitting is what senior people say about Junior people right but when we talk about ourselves we say I'm looking for work life balance so it's so you know Junior people don't say that they're quiet quitting what senior people say of Junior people so but yes that is still a thing um uh so I think the the the way to combat all of these things or manage all of these things look the list goes on uh is to be very open and honest about it um to have a conversation and to make the um uh implicit explicit um this is can be said of relationships of all kinds by the way when you take implicit tensions and you make those tensions explicit even if you don't have resolution it at least normalizes it um so to say things like uh these are strange times where we don't really know what full-time employment means we say to the team or I know that we're many of us are still struggling with like what kind of careers do we want and do we even want to work here do I even want to work hard or what does that even mean and just having the conversation out loud tells everybody like I know you know you don't have to hide these things I know it's like kid our kids can't imagine that we ever got drunk or anything anything when we were younger you know it's like they forget that we were young at one point like all of the idiot things that they do we've done all those things um not me of course but yeah I'm just going to say no I'm sure um uh but uh I think when you when you when you make it loud it allows for discussion to happen and so I I I try and do this even in my company I try to relieve the tension by talking about these things um so even when we've gone through difficult times like we were hit very hard by um the great resignation I mean I'm only a small team 27 people and we lost seven people over the great resignation which when you're a little company over the course of 2 months I mean it's it's humiliating it's debilitating you there's nothing else we're talking about or thinking about we're not growing or being ambitious or innovation we're just just praying another person doesn't quit this week um and I was very open about it as rib and like look this is a really tough time and I'm I'm it's very difficult and I'm struggling with it and it's humiliating and embarrassing and I'm trying so hard to do the right thing and people are leading for different reasons so there's not even one thing I can fix and I I you know but I'm I want you to know I'm I care and I'm trying I was just very open about it um the irony is is the team that I was left with is freaking out amazing okay good yeah I mean that's uh I think something that everybody's been experiencing right losing amazing people that you've done everything that has has worked in the past uh you know weent yeah exactly um do you think that we're just in a new era where this is the new Norm no no I don't I I think it's the dust is not settled yet you know we didn't like I said there's so many unanswered questions and we were talking about a little bit at lunch which is you know there's a group of people who don't want to come back to work because they like working from home but the same group of people is suffering from increased levels of depression and anxiety well of course because you're all alone at home and you're not amongst people you're not building relationship which is how you manage stress relationships is how you manage stress and so the problem is if we force them to come back to work they don't come back to work depressed and anxious because the little time they've been at home which only reinforces their narrative that it's work that's making me depressed and anxious and they want to go back home that is as I'm yet unresolved um so there's a lot of that that that's happening cuz remember how work was before Co right you go to work and then after work you meet your friends and and you all vent about work you have a meal you have a drink and everybody complains about their boss and then you go home and you repeat it you know and that's what Fridays and Saturdays were after work you meet your friends Friday right and then after Co when Co struck that relief system that very healthy uh therapy was taken away cuz there was no after work and so all we did was spend time with our colleagues and co-workers on Zoom all the time and then after work we just did nothing we played video games we watched TV and even if we called a friend it wasn't hours of venting and hanging out joking and the therapy and the catharsis it was taken away and so stress went up dramatically and because we still want to get it out we took it out with the person who was willing to listen at work and what we didn't know is everybody was talking to the same person and I don't think we realize what we've done to each other and I'm not sure that that's been relieved and that's yet another reason why coming back to work is important and why going out with your friends after work is important other words staying at home the whole time is just not healthy yeah yeah it's a a lot of we have a lot of hrlp alums here um this is the HR leaders and you are trained uh to kind of turn that off I'm looking at some heads here uh because you get that as your job but you know when it's the rest to the leadership Force um or just Workforce uh that's kind of you're empathetic because that makes you also a good leader um and but you have to need to release yourself you need to be able to go with your friends and vent about all the idiots who came to see you today you know it's like that's fine it's it's healthy it's healthy the venting is healthy because if you didn't you would actually take that stress out on people so do you feel people should come back you feel like to work yeah yeah I mean we're 100% virtual company but I've been 100% virtual for 15 years and so what we were really good at it and when Co hit we like you another day at work um but we also recognize that being a distributed Workforce is actually more work not less work because Isaac Stern the famous violinist said music is what happens between the notes well in a company trust is what happens between the meetings um where you're talking to somebody who you into the meeting you're talking to somebody when you walk out of the meeting and that's usually where the decisions get made you bump into somebody and I guarantee it happened here you were chatting with people you haven't seen in a while how are you going to see you when you're getting a coffee before you came in and you're going to do it when you're done right and when you bump into somebody in the wholeway like oh I meant to tell you oh by the way that client let me tell you the decision that we made and all these little by themselves innocuous interactions over the course of time build up in a Thing Called trust and the correlation is just look at any friend or relationship like if you have a friend it didn't you weren't friends on day one it's all the little things that you eventually a friendship blossomed it's the same thing well we took that away and so we as a company knew that and so when you have a distributed Workforce it's not less work it's more work because you now have to create all of those things um artificially because there is no between the meetings it's turn on Zoom have the meeting turn off Zoom that's it and so we do um we do we used to do on Mondays but now we do on Wednesdays but we do Wednesday huddle where the whole team comes together the whole company comes together we're small and we talk about not work we make a couple small announcements and then whoever's leading huddle they could do whatever they want and we go into breakout sessions for 12 minutes with three or four people and we just talk about whatever did you see this movie oh my God my kids are driving me crazy right and it's very human there's no discussion at work but we do this because otherwise there's no socializing and we encourage people to get on planes and visit each other in each other's cities and have hackathons to solve a problem and we have an annual Summit where we all come together anual upset we come together so we we still create human interaction in pockets and we encourage people to use the telephone rather than Zoom weirdly it's a I I think it's a better medium and I I mean I can tell you why so Zoom doesn't NE so I'm a I'm a Pacer okay I do my best thinking when I Pace back and St forwards so when I'm on the phone solving a problem I can Pace on Zoom I can't F okay um or it's fake eye contact right so I'm staring at your eyes but that's not where my camera is so what you see is this right um um or you spend the whole time looking at yourself um because you know you know so you're staring at yourself that's there some great human connection there um or there's excessive and weird politeness right like everybody's on mute and then you unmute to speak and then you mute and never interrupt anybody well have you ever been in a real meeting it's noisy and you interrupt each other all the time and nobody's offended by it because it's idea generation and things are happening and this is why you cannot have uh brainstorming on Zoom because it's not chaotic and so I've I've tried it in small you can't do it on a big meeting but like four or five people I make everybody stay unmuted I want interaction I want Interruption I want a little bit of Madness and it's better um but it's all fake and I find that when you pick up a telephone weirdly um uh it's less polite and like if somebody's distracted on on Zoom you can tell when somebody's typing you know you can see when they're distracted but nobody says anything they're you just know that they're distracted where if you're on the phone and somebody's doing something like are you typing yeah can can you stop typing please totally fine totally acceptable I think the phone is just a better medium to actually have a real connection and a diff and productive conversation um where I think Zoom is good for basic stuff I love that um sometimes uh in a meeting you'll get a letter or an email from somebody else who's in the meeting and then you know that they're not even paying attention to the meeting that you're both on oh and we we're I me even our meetings we're constantly sending direct messages to each other you know through Zoom yeah yeah you know do you agree with this you know uh but but creativity and brainstorming does not work over resum fact does not work does not work great okay so we're going to bring it back to the um so it's it it's it you takes more work it's harder harder to have a virtual company and most companies don't put in the work yep yep yep like to have a whole meeting where you don't talk about work companies don't want to do that it's very true um I don't know if you have the answer to this question uh I can guarantee you I have an opinion okay very likely so you've been advising lots of different companies and um and you you've traveled quite a bit uh I think this is your first time though in Singapore no it's my third is it really okay great um somebody had given me incorrect information do you have you like noticed H yeah okay thanks I love it years so it's really maybe not that long no no no no it's not that long the last time I was here was probably probably probably been a decade it's probably been 10 years for leadership stuff yeah yeah I came here for Apple actually they had a big Summit here and I came I think that was the last time I was here with Joel palone I remember that um it was an education Summit okay anyway okay yeah anyway we'll go down I almost forgot my question we're both very jet likeed um but my question is have you notice any differences in leaders in leadership in Asia versus in the other countries that you have consulted with simple answer is yes oh great tell us tell us more yeah so uh there's two two two things I would I would propose um there's this idea of Honor that has been lost in the west in the United States like nobody like the concept of chivalry is gone and the word honor is not used in business it's not even used in society in the United States he would never describe somebody as honorable now if you come from the military yes they still use the term honor I'll call somebody in the military and be like hey do you like this guy like oh yeah yeah super honorable you know and honor has nothing to do with trustworthiness or intelligence or reliability you can be all those things and still be dishonorable you know to me honor is the willingness uh uh it's it's not taking advantage of somebody's pain for personal gain it's not it's putting aside The Leverage that you may have because it's the right thing to do you know um and uh and I find that that concept of Honor still exists here which I think is important in business I'd like to bring it back to the United States and I do I talk about it so there's still a sense of Honor like your word your reputation that it's not just transactional and it's not just who's got the best deal there they want to do business with honorable people so that still exists which leads to the second thing which is relationship which is here you have you have meetings and the entire meeting goes by and nobody talked about business you talk about all kinds of other things and it's about getting to know somebody in relationship and looking them in the eye and can I trust you and in the United States it's become excessively transactional where we do business with people who we may not like because it's a better deal we're in Asia I think I'll turn down a good deal because I don't I don't know if I like you you know I don't know if you're a good person um and I I think that's good um so the value of relationships the value of spending the time to build relationships before you get um create a business relationship I think is still very alive here and take pride in that it matters yeah that's something to definitely be proud of so I'm going to go to you now uh to any questions that you might have uh for Simon so David you want to ask your question thank you um just to follow on from your point about honor is that something that leaders in the west have caused the loss of Honor or you know coming back to the point why leadership matters how did that come about but the first question I really wanted to ask was when you lost your passion was there something that happened that caused you to lose your passion and did you try to reignite that passion before you thought and then your friend came along I don't know why I lost it I don't know couldn't I don't I don't know what events happened um I think what happened was I mean I can tell you some of the circumstances which I'm sure contributed to it which is you know when you start a business it's exciting there's a statistic that hangs over your head that over 90% of all new businesses fail in the first three years and once and so that's if you're a little bit competitive and you like bad odds that's fun and I'd beat that I now join in a very elite group in the world that said you've survived three years and my fourth year became about building and I realized that I had built a business out of force of personality you know I was in every meeting made every decision I was Chief cook and bottle washer and when you start to have some success you get a even just a little bit of scale that doesn't work and and I didn't have the skill set on how to build a structure I could just run on force of Personality which is fine if you want to be a solopreneur but you can't build a business that way and so I think I what I had reached I reached a Peter principal where my ability to build structure um capped out and I didn't want to admit that the single best lesson I learned out of that whole experience was and the biggest mistake I've made in my life is um I don't have to know everything and I don't have to pretend I do and so the since that day I've learned to say I don't know I need help and turns out I was always surrounded by people who wanted to help me they just didn't know I needed it because never asked um and so I'm really good at saying I don't know and I need help now and don't build anything by myself and don't feel like I have to I don't feel like I have to be the smartest person in the room I don't feel like I have to have more credibility than anybody else I don't mind any of those things I let go of all of that baggage and a lot of us still carry that baggage that we think if we're in the leaders we have to have all the answers we have to be the smartest person we have to be better at everybody else's job than they are because that's what makes us a leader and we falsely confuse our credibility as a leader is not tied to our intelligence it's tied to our ability to see those around us rise that's what it means to be a leader so if you can shed those demons that pretty um empowering I think the West has lost its honor I think you can it's been a steady drum beat it's been a slow decline I don't think it happen overnight there's no one event but you know in the 1970s Milton Friedman The Economist theorized theorized that the responsibility of business was to maximize profit within the bounds of the wall no mention of Ethics you know know and that definition which was just the theory was embraced by a class of leader corporate leader in the day and they used it to justify new behaviors in business so for example the concept of mass layoffs to balance the books um which is now normal you know CEOs very comfortably go on TV and say we missed our numbers we're having a round of layoffs like you're profitable just not as profitable as you promised um so normal like they just do it very openly that that did not exist as a behavior did not exist prior to the 1980s didn't exist you only had layoffs for existential reasons um the Jack Welch the rise of Jack Welch who I think I am trying to undo everything he did I think he was a terrible human being who uh basically perpetuated concepts of short-termism rank and yank pitting our people against each other inside our own companies and creating internal competition um uh just everything that violates every good tenant of leadership Welch did the opposite uh he wrote a book called uh winning um he wrote a leadership book and put his own face on the cover I mean that tells you everything um and the problem was that became the model and there's an entire generation of leader that was raised in the 80s and 90s on Milton Freedman and Jack wilch theories and what they did was they broke capitalism what America has today and and and only because America's so rich so goes America so goes the world you know and so as American capitalism became bastardized the rest of the world started copying American capitalism because it made a lot of money right so now that American capitalism of short-termism and rank and yank and all nonsense has now spread outside the borders to the detriment of global economies I would add and this is not Adam Smith capitalism that made America great this is a new version of capitalism which is extremely short termist and extremely broken and the result is we're seeing a rise against capitalism there is there's a a populist movement of foot in the United States whether it's Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump left and right whether it's Hungary or brexit or all of these things they're all populist movements against capitalism now they're confusing capitalism and this version of capitalism we want to reform capitalism not eliminate it it's a good system but it's very broken uh the the decline of the middle class and the stock market all of these things the violation of the social contract of leaders all of it all of it um and I think that's contributed to the lack of Honor which is uh Jack Welch was not an honorable business he was a makoi and stabby in the back if he needed to to make a buck and and it became normal and it took about 20 or 30 years for him to break it it's going to take us 20 or 30 years to fix it that's why you have to do a really good job no no I'm not even joking like you go to a program like this to learn a the a kind of leadership that is different than the ' 80s and 90s that that has become normalized and standardized today so that if you get it right and you build the companies you work for in the manner that they need to be built then we will restore a belief in capitalism or we will restore a belief in trust and cooperation up and down the chain of command work we trust our leaders and our leaders trust us we will restore a model where people will happily give 10 20 30 years to one company rather than one year one year one year one year we will store a model where we derive tremendous Joy from our work rather than tremendous stress um there's a lot at stake here that's why programs like this really really matter and your biggest challenge is to invent new incentives because all the old incentives reward quarterly or annual performance and basically nothing else there's very few companies that have successfully figured out incentives and reward structures for cooperation teamwork and things like that the performance stuff is fine but it's wul unbalanced it's a great call to action everybody here has a say okay youn I asked you maybe you can introduce yourself and your company because none really knows don't worry about the microphone I'll repeat the question hi my name is ifn from great place to work and we agree that leadership matters the reality is leaders today are very tight there's so much expected of them how can we encourage a heart of leaders across the organization and you talk about cage and how could we build courage if leadership is a learnable trade it's a very good question it's a very hard question um what's that that's why I ask you oh you're very kind um you know this sounds corny but group therapy is a thing right which is we talk about leadership being lonely and complicated and that we're constantly putting on a mask and acting like we have all the answers and being tough and nothing phases us and some of that's important but not to the point of self-destruction or lying hiding and faking and there's a need for leaders to be able to vent themselves and have catharsis and ask for help um there's a very important case study um I've written about it in the infinite game but you can go back to the original hbr uh case study it's on the shell Ursa Ursa um the shell Ursa in I think it was is an oil rig an offshore oil rig and I think it was the 1980s and when the time when it was built was the largest oil rig in the world right and when you're launching something that big and that complicated you you're concerned about all kinds of things and so they found a guy and they said you're going to lead you're going to be in charge of the crew of the shell Orsa and as he was preparing for it um it was in the news that this oil rig was going to exist and this weird hippie sort of San Francisco business consultant reached out to him and basically said I have something for you to try and he was weirdly open-minded and he was willing to go to a workshop that she was running in San Francisco with his son and it helped him restore a very broken relationship with his son and so he agreed to bring some of her thoughts and theories to his crew and what he did is months before they launched to see he had all his crew and I'm talking these are tough guys who work on oil rigs these aren't the leadership this is the guys who run the oil rig and he had them sit around in a circle and it got very extreme I wouldn't recommend this like they were giving each other foot massages um uh don't want to do that uh but they he forced them to talk and it took a few rounds but one by one people started opening up for example one guy had a son who uh I think was struggling with some terminal illness and nobody even knew he had a son let alone a son with a terminal illness and there was crying and there was hugging and they were holding space for each other and they learned how to listen and they learned how to hold space for each other and they learned how to be uh vulnerable right I would call it human they learned how to be human around each other and then they went out to the oil rig and something happened which has turns out that when you learn to be comfortable being vulnerable with someone that you were much more willing to say I need help I made a mistake and you know something's gone wrong and on that oil rig the accident rate was one of the lowest if not the lowest in all of the shell organization and the entire industry and their performance was one of the highest um and I think that's lacking in business because it's uncomfortable we don't want to do it who wants to do that right um but I think to create spaces where people learn how to hold space for each other and it doesn't have to be all personal but I actually think the personal stuff's important um and I'll just give you one example which is co every single person who went through Co suffered trauma everyone um and every single person at some point of the course of Co got depressed everyone didn't happen at the same time and I went through mine about four five months in I went through mine and I didn't know what was wrong I was off my game I I was struggling I didn't know what it was and I called a friend of mine who was in the military and I said you know how do you know when you're suffering from the trauma of combat and he said well and there was no leading questions I just asked him a very open question no leading answer I mean and so I I no leading question and I and he said well um he says um I fall out of my sleep cycle I start going to bed very late and don't want to get out of bed in the morning and I went yep and he said and I become uh really unproductive but I rationalize and like oh you've been working hard it's okay you just had an unproductive day no big deal except I have another and another and another I went yep and he said I become really antisocial I don't want to talk to anybody and I definitely don't want to ask anybody for help and I went yep and I realized I was suffering trauma and so the next question was well how do I deal with it and he said well force myself back into a sleep schedule okay I can do that he says I allow myself to be unproductive but I tell my team that I'm unproductive right now and I forced myself to ask for help and so I did that and I went to my team in an open phone call on a whole team I said I'm going through something I don't know what it is I'm not don't rely on me right now um because I'm struggling and I'm just not that helpful right now I'll be okay don't worry about me but but I just need you to know that I'm not in a good place but I'm aware and I did it out loud I did it to my team which I think a lot of leaders would never do um and it did two things my my team was patient with me they held space for me they picked up work for me that I that that I would ordinarily they would have been frustrated because I let them down and everything was fine but the most important thing was because I had set the example other people were willing to say when they were struggling and we could support them where if IID put on a brave face every day everyone would have put on a brave face every day and then it would have gotten worse and so that idea of catharsis I did it with a bunch of police Chiefs recently America is having a bit of a policing problem understatement and so I gathered a group of really forward-thinking modern Progressive police Chiefs and I brought them in room there's about 15 of them and I led the way I went first I said look there are many things that I struggle with as a leader because it's lonely and and and I have insecurities and let me tell you what some of them are and one by one they all started to open up in a way that they never have because who they opening up to they're the chiefs of police like who they going to tell and they're definitely going to tell each other without me because they're all tough and they all one by one started opening up of their struggles their fears their insecurities um I mean some deep stuff that they were revealing was incredible and even the ones who never talked some people didn't open their mouths came up to me afterwards and said thank you I needed that just the ability to hold space and they all went back supercharged and so there's a something to be said for giving leaders a safe space and by the way you don't have to do it in your own company like you I assume you built relationship as you went through these classes do go that should be your team like I don't know if that if you have that but those safe spaces for you to be fully open where there's no judgment and you can talk about anything in any difficult terms you want is I can't tell you how important it is for for for for um mental Fitness it is so important and it gives us the goes back to courage learning to do it in circles like this you will have more courage than you realize to do it at work and know how to help people at work and do it amongst themselves and especially as HR professionals I mean can I wax on about HR professionals absolutely we've got some star star star HR professionals here so please do most I can't speak about Singapore about the United States but most HR departments are a complete waste um because they don't know what their job is they think their job is to do the bidding of Senior Management and they get rewarded for how efficiently they did the layoffs and any large company that says if you have a problem coming to HR you have got to be kidding no one trusts HR R I am not telling HR any problem I'm having you will use it against me right and I saw it happen firsthand it was absolutely aart uh a good friend of mine who's an executive at a large company who will remain nameless but you know the company oh you know the company um had a had a problem with a an employee one somebody who reported to her there was a tension between them and uh this employee thought that she was out to get her and it was bad and so HR got involved um I think one of them went to HR log a complain about the other I think the junior one lodged to complain about the senior and my friend called me up and said what do I do I'm having a meeting with me my direct report and the HR representative how do I what do I do in this meeting I said very simple um the problem is the person doesn't feel heard that's that's all this is okay so you have to create a space where they feel heard that's it not have answers not correct the fact she's going to say things that are wrong because you told me what happened in the scenario and there's a misunderstanding and it's it's just factually wrong but don't correct them right that is your strategy right so my friend went in and said tell me tell me what happened and she vented and she said go on tell me more what else I coached her you know go on tell me more what else go on tell me more what else go on tell me more what else good oldfashioned listening right and at the end the she felt good she felt heard she felt seen she felt understood and the idiot HR executive said do you want to tell her what you want to do now and my friend no no because what I told my friend is that's the best outcome 3 days L later you can call up and say can I tell you my my view on this once the emotion has settled you can't do it with a high state of emotion and she's now open to hear your side of it when she's rational again right and the HR executive the HR representative is like would you have to tell her what what you're and my friend's like no no no no I'm good this is great this is literally great and the HR executive literally Wasing her and then started getting involved and saying well you said that and literally broke it and and it was excruciating that this RR executive was not trained on how this very simple very common experience on how to relieve tension which is it's going to be multi multipronged it's not going to be one meetings and then everybody's done because everybody gets their turn to speak no no no the person who feels wronged needs to feel heard that's it uh and the HR executive made it worse so um I think there's a massive opportunity for the HR profession to be professionalized and reformed where you the HR is the voice of the employee at the executive table that is your job that when the executives say we are going to have a round of layoffs the HR should be saying hold on hold on hold on what's the issue well we need to save 10% of expenses okay okay let me go back to the people that I represent I'm the voice of the people here you're the voice of Finance you're the voice of operations you're the voice of I'm the voice of people so I'm representing them here I'm their Union Leader let me go back to them and see if we can find 10% somewhere else and you go back to everybody and say guys uh they're they got to save 10% and um they they are willing to do layoffs and I want to make that the last resort how can we all band together and find 10% of savings let's do this to help each other better we should all suffer a little than any of us have to suffer a lot how we going to figure this out that's HR job not be like okay you need to do L Us by what date um and I think there's a massive opportunity and it goes back to honor and it goes back to trust and it goes back to all these things which is HR can fix many of the broken ills and poor leaders in all the other positions makes me think of some um and I'm going to get to the question in the back in some offer letters here there's actually a statement and I know this is for public service that you can take away 20% of the salary for times like that and the idea is that rather than firing y to put that in the contract it is actually in the contract suffer a little than anyone should have exactly exactly which by the way makes morale go up yeah yeah yeah yeah interesting okay uh right I've said my Soap Box about HR I have I will let's go to the back and then Chuck is yeah hi uh my name is chinan from tamasic um I just wanted to pick on a point which you raised about the fact that we want to have a new capitalism where people are incentivized to work in the place for a long time rather than sort of one year one year one year which is really what our young people do they move from job to job is that a failure leadership or is it a new reality that we need to deal with the former it's a failure of leadership right because when people feel taken care of when people feel trusted when they feel like they belong when they feel like their work means something they're working towards something bigger than themselves why would they leave right right you have to understand we have to understand we have to remember that because things like Jack Welch and layoffs have become so normalized that young people have grown up in a capitalist system where they watch their parents lose their jobs through no fault of their own it's not a meritocracy you worked for company for 20 years you did good work sorry nothing personal is just business we miss our numbers so they've watched it happen they've watched the company not take care of their parents and they've been raised not to trust companies why should they I think they have it right and so they come in inherently cynical and inherently expecting that the company would happily use their job to help itself and then stupidly demand loyalty back I don't blame them the company sets the rules of the game the people are just playing by the rules the company set which is no loyalty or when hardship happens the first thing cut is like all the leadership programs you know it's it's the first thing that's cut it should be the last thing to be cut well I kind of measure the ROI on that can I you can over time um so I I don't think it's just some reality because at the end of the day great organizations that are well-led have no problem with young people leaving every year they just don't have it you know ones and twoes sure but not not nothing significant um there's plenty of companies that come out tremendous loyalties from young people because they're well LED so I don't think it's a new reality I think it is um yet again a condition of a broken capitalism okay Chuck and then in the front Chuck hi my name is uh Chuck I have spent 27 years in corporate mostly imbued with the thoughts of Jack Welsh capitalism Milton fredman you name it it's like it's like an AA meeting yes yes let let me start with the Journey of vulnerability right I will I um so you know you can imagine the first time I saw a Simon syc video my first thought was what is this guy all about what is he on uh and that's the that's the reality of it if you've gone through the 80s and '90s uh listening to the Jack wels thought the Simon syx school of thought is oh I'm an idiot is jarring I'm an idiot yeah right yeah I'm unrealistic idealistic and naive sure but I've been called those things your your words not mine your words uh no no no I've been called those things but and firstly I want to thank you for the inspiration right I think I think I I speak on behalf of many in this audience thank you uh and and on that I think the The Next Step from inspiration don't worry Dar is a question there's a question coming uh on top of on the next step of inspiration is aspiration I think we all have aspiration genuine aspiration to to bring about the simx school of thought y right but it's difficult because you've you've actually explicitly acknowledged that uh human beings are anthropologically hierarchical yep right for survival instincts all those who you know did not want to acknowledge hierarchy died so this is what's left uh but as you also said it takes another 20 30 years to get to the new way of handling hierarchy I'm talking about us in the context of knowing that Jeffrey Fifer book on seven rules of power is still the most popular CA in Stanford I'm talking about the world where Robert Green's 48 Laws of Power is still somewhat good reading and then that's you mhm so we got to Stage this in and my question is how are we going to station this it um so how do you run a marathon tell us one step at a time in this in the right direction nobody said it would be easy and nobody said it would be fast and I'm okay with that as long as marching forwards you know um I just had Robert Green on my podcast I don't think we've released the episode yet because I read his book and I was like there you go thank you and then I stopped reading I'm like I can't even do this you know so I like brought him on the podcast and I was ready for a fight and uh he's lovely he's absolutely lovely and uh I understand why he wrote that book and he talks about it he he and I had a wonderful conversation what's missing from that book is the context right which was he was 38 years old and every job he had he was trying to be a writer um he was subjected to people who stole his ideas stabbed him in the back screwed him over and over from the age of 21 to 38 just just people who were threatened by him fired him like just over and over and over and he he was exhausted and he happened to be walking with a guy who had a he was a publisher you'd love to I'd love you to write a book do you have any ideas and he thought you know what I've been subjected to people who are who are jostling for power and I'm going to write a book what how I perceive power basically to warn everybody like put your guard up stop being so naive this is what the world is it's a little bit cynical right but that's basically what it is it's the problem is he wrote it that's some people read it as a manual but it's really a warning like be aware of how your enemy works so you're you you won't be taken advantage of um uh because it's really how to manipulate people um so when you ask like you know what do we do well first of all you write about the curriculum which is the people who teach a lot of that stuff they come from those Jack Welch ideologies so of course going to choose those books the good news is folks like me and Renee Brown and our books are starting to show up and at the very minimum if they show up on the same syllabus so at least there's a a debate or better they're replacing the Old Guard you know so there is a movement and I also think the the most the Practical movement is the leaders themselves for you and your own organization to say I reject the Jack Welch way that I was raised in I have seen the damage it causes we have seen economic hardship caused we've seen families destroyed by short-termism and self than selfishness and shareholder Supremacy and I will not lead and I will do everything I can to support this organization to change the way in which we leave for the good of the company and by the way you look at the best organizations like like Apple never had layoffs I think they've had them Pixar had them once and they like regretted it you know these great organizations didn't do these things um so there's good there's good case studies from the from the companies that we consider the exceptions well there's a reason there were the exceptions so I I think the the as a practical matter which is this is the Army right here and you can't and I look I get this question all the time Simon I I buy into all your stuff that's one the thank you very much but I'm not CEO how do I change the organization when I'm not in charge where there's like four levels up above me what am I supposed to and the answer is of course you can't change behaviors of somebody you have no contact with even to somebody people you do have contact with no number of anonymously sent books to senior Executives is going to change the way they lead although I encourage you to keep trying um uh and the reality is you take responsibility for the the environment you can control so if you have influence over seven people people to the left people to the right even the boss above you that's still a human and even if they're difficult let's have empathy maybe they're difficult because we don't understand the pressure upon them and if we just work to create this little pocket of magic what you tend to find is when you have well-led teams those teams outperform all the other teams and so senior leadership either leaves you alone or they at least are curious and like what are you doing or somebody from the team will eventually get promoted out to another team and bring all the lessons that you taught them and Lead that team the same way and then that you have two magic uh teams and then somebody there gets promoted and you have four magic teams and you have eight magic teams and then the CEO moves on and is and retires and before you know it the tail wags the dog the the having a top leader who understands the stuff just means it's more efficient but it doesn't mean it's the only way you have we have to remember power always belongs to the people that's why dictators fear people and have fake elections because they want to give the appearance of popular support because that's where power is derived but dictators fear the people which is why you can't get close to a dictator's house you have to say three miles away and the arm's given orders for shoot to kill right the people always have the power always and so what you do is you create these magical ripples inside an organization and you don't even need to convert everybody it's law of diffusion you only need about 15 to 18% of the company to fully embrace the ideas and that's it tip Tipping Point so don't worry about the CEO don't worry about the company just worry about what you can control thanks s much it's e it's easy for me I run my own company then then you have efficiency then you have efficiency okay we have a last question hey Simon hi uh this is Ian Wong from UOB an honor to be here we minut it thank you so the question is aging Workforce yeah so what would be your um maybe words of wisdom on how leaders uh should organize themselves to rejuvenate the Aging Workforce uh especially in today's uh baau business as unusual so that's my first question the second question is given the I narrative right how do you authentically inspire the youths the young that uh there's going to be a great future with good jobs uh to come yep so let's talk about uh aging Workforce first so um everyone but wants to feel seen he and understood everyone wants to feel like they matter right and an aging Workforce starts to feel like nobody cares about them they don't matter there's agis and all the rest of it if I'm a certain age I can't get a job you know um uh uh first of all um all of the empathy we apply to a young group we have to apply to an aging group right that's a big part of it the other part is I always believe in asking people to solve their own problems so one of the mistakes I think we make in business is as Leaders we think we have to have all the answers and solve all the problems and take anything uh you know where we we we we commission studies and we look at the data and then we make decisions and then we Implement a program and we have a a roll out schedule and we have a change Management Consultant and then here you go and at no point do we ever go to the people who are actually going to be affected by our decisions and say here's the problem we have we're completely open to what we would do can you bring us some suggestions on how you would sold this or you can do with two or three different groups to get two or three different points of view and I love asking people to solve their own problems right because a gives them a sense of ownersh ship and B you're going to get ideas that you never had um and I'll give you one bad example but it'll make the point so this company that I talked about Barry way Miller uh they had they make they it's a manufacturing company so they have a big Factory and they have a huge machine that needed getting old and it needed replacing and so the way a machine is usually replaced inside a factory is somebody in procurement back in back office somewhere uh puts together a spec sheet puts together a budget and goes out in the market and buys a machine that's usually how it's done that's not how they did it at Barry weiller because it didn't make sense to them why you would ask an accountant to buy a machine so they went to the two guys who work on the machine one of them had worked on it for about 25 years the other one had a high school equivalency degree didn't even have a high school degree and they said to the two guys um we need to replace your machine you have a budget of $750,000 go buy a machine and the guys went out on the open market and they looked at new machines they looked at secondhand machines and the the sellers said they've never had the experience usually people show up with a tie on a clipboard they've never had people show up and overall and climb into the machine before they've never had that happen the guys ended up spending $650,000 on a new machine um we're proud that they saved the company $100,000 and by the way that machine will never break because it's their machine um uh but most companies wouldn't trust some somebody with a high school equivalency degree to spend 3/4 of a million dolls but they are the best qualified people my point is is go to the people who are affected by the challenge and ask them to solve the problem and just give them the safe space to do it and if there's a budget required give them a budget because they will Sol in Prof so that's a big one um uh what was the second part the first part was agent War oh AI right right so AI is an interesting one right and we can get into the goods and the bads of AI but I'll just answer the question which is a first for me by the way usually I go down the Rabin that's a joke by the way um feel free to laugh anytime um uh I think it's a very simple thing which is um fear is the thing we're guarding against people are afraid of AI right and it's not that it's going to take away our jobs it's that I don't know what's going to happen to me the fear isn't losing the job the fear is what's next and so if we think back you know uh 30 years ago something like 80% of the jobs that exist today didn't exist prior to the internet you know it Consulting was not a robust business where now it's standard um uh and so the narrative isn't your job is going to go away the narrative is your job is going to change and I'll give one example I'll give me right so in my world the writer is king and the editor is disposal right what AI Can Do Is Write a bad first draft you don't really unless it's an original idea so like let's take about a press release we pay a press we pay a PR person a lot of money because they know how to write a press release right that's the hard part and then the rest of us get our grubby handl it right that'll change that'll change cuz now chat gbt been write a bad first draft of a press release editor is going to be the hero and so we're going to replace writers with editors um and so to use that example that the jobs not going away the balance will shut I'll give you another example in the United States the IRS a bunch of years ago digitized taxes it used to be you send in the form and teams and teams and teams that accountants read through our tax forms and they replac it all with computers and they offered this massive savings you know how much the government actually saved when we digitized taxes zero because yes they got rid of all the accountants but then they had to boost up the it departments because now all the computers were playing reading the taxes the net savings was Zero the jobs changed didn't go away they just changed the net savings will be zero you're going to have to pay editors more you're going to have to pay what you used to pay writers um and so if you help people understand opportunity from this to that um we already you can major ready in uh what do they call it in a a prompt prompter right uh uh that that's going to become a skill how to prompt AI so I think we just instead of talking about your job is going away away which is a narrative we start talking about the new jobs that are going to be available I think that gets people excited because again they're not afraid of losing their jobs they're afraid of that there's no job for them and so we start talking about all the new jobs that are going to exist like prompt editor you know all of these things that are going to happen um I think that people will be excited to explore new and they can still have nerves the Fe but they won't be at the uncertainty that freaks them out so all they to do is paint a picture of of a little more certainty than we have now thank you thanks and I would I mean I'm going to just throw this out there so I mean you can totally disagree with me but I would offer that being a leader is one of those jobs that's going to stay which is which is the ability to uh the 100% I think that the ability because computers will replace a lot of the mundane stuff but the job of leading people can never ever ever be replaced by a computer and so I think the need for leaders the education for leaders the curriculum for leaders is going become more important in a highly digitized World amen amen [Music] awesome Simon it was an absolute Joy I mean I I flew back early because I I just I couldn't I just really wanted to be here and to meet you in person um we we do close a lot of programs some of you have been to recent programs where we close with clips of Simon um so really really appreciate your time and making the time to to join us and you know I think that what I take away here is really the call to action to all of us um to continue with the movement because uh that's how it becomes scalable yep so uh really thank you so much for joining us enjoy Singapore I'm sure that there are lots of different suggestions here what to do uh he will be here for the weekend having a lot of fun but I'm going to ask you to do one thing which is take a photo with all of us okay so SP is gonna take lead we're gonna do yeah if everyone's just sitting down that's great okay