[Music] don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his Divine Messianic forced to be a sort of policeman of the whole world God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment and it seems that I can hear God saying to America you're too arrogant if you don't change your ways I will rise up and break the backbone of your [Music] power oep this is f here with freedom now now and your ears are in tuned at high frequencies in a liberated Zone Freedom now is a pan-africanist global news outlet from coast to coast dispelling the Western propaganda media and their all lies point of views Freedom now is devoted to relay True News views and proper Clues to form Solutions around freedom for the open impressed worldwide now get relaxed grab a pen and phone a friend because Freedom now is set to begin to awaken deep sleepers dreaming about Freedom now within in Freedom to the bottom where [Music] we sh I tast in you C your by splitting this from sea to shining sea land of the free home of the brave Graves of the slaves at the foundations where Wall Street was laid when the first Stones was paid first notes in gra NYC to be more seashores te with slaves hanges at the capital set trues between red and blue just the Savage you gang banging what democ G this is Sister th with Freedom now's agenda for this Saturday October 5th 2024 we honor all who have been martyred and stand with all the people power in resistance to imperialist Wars capitalism colonialism and white supremacy all power to the people power to the youth remember to join an organization and if you're not already part of one start one we are back in fun drive here on freedom now to keep our kpfk programming and our lights on in the building and so we commence today's program with the African drum beat historic IAL calendar and this hour we also have a statement from black lives matter Los Angeles on mayor Karen bass's appointment of Jim McDonald as the new Los Angeles Police Department chief and we will hear prison radio commentaries from Mia Abu Jamal on the auru 3 and Julian Assange today prolific author radical historian professor of African-American studies at the University of Houston and freedom now co-producer Dr Gerald horn interviews Gregory Downs the department chair and professor of history at UC Davis and author of the book Nat Turner black profit a Visionary history our music clip mix includes MLK zap Mama slum prophecy chick Korea John cold train Freddy hubard Cal jader and more and now Dr Horn's going to fill you in on our fun drive premium for this hour and so sit back phone into to call to make your pledge and as always we stand ready for revolution pledge a mere $100 and receive as a thank you gift the latest book from Gerald horn hot off the presses arm struggle with a question mark Panthers and Communists black nationalists and liberals in Southern California through the 60s and 70s read about the distinctions drawn between and amongst armed propaganda armed self-defense and armed struggle read the first detailed analysis of the shootout at the UCLA campus in January 1969 leaving two Panthers dead read the first detailed analysis of the LAPD attack on Panther headquarters in December 1969 read the first detailed analysis of the August 1970 shootout at the Moran County Courthouse featuring Pasadena teenager Jonathan Jackson in an alleged attempt to free his elder brother George Jackson and read of the role of the recently deceased political prisoner relle McGee read the first detailed analysis of the attempt at UCLA to fire Professor Angela Davis because of her membership in the US Communist party and her subsequent trial when she was charged with murder conspiracy and kidnapping during the AFF forementioned County Courthouse shootout read the first detailed analysis of the Panthers Embassy abroad in Algeria led by Eldridge Cleaver of Pasadena and watts in their attempt to build global solidarity for the Black Liberation struggle read of the Panthers solidarity delegations to the nation then known as the People's Republic of the Congo in braz and of the Panthers Exile in socialist Cuba read of the connections between Hollywood communism progressives such as screenwriter Dalton Trumbo actor Jane Fonda actor Jean seberg screenwriter Donald freed basketball star Bill Walton and producer Bert Schneider and their support for the Panthers read of the sere repression visited upon radical and leftwing forces which set the stage for the rise of paramilitary forces often depicted as gangs and the concomitant rise of the drug epidemic especially crack cocaine read the first detailed analysis of the NAACP chapter in La especially the Beverly Hills Hollywood branch which was a cash cow for the National Organization not least because of the contributions from celebrities like Sammy Davis Jr read of the roots of K Quanza the nationally celebrated black American holiday above all understand why historically Southern California has been in the Vanguard of rad radicalism and revolutionary upsurges and how that Spirit has yet to be squashed again pledge a mere $100 and receive a sign copy of the latest book by Gerald horn armed struggle with a question mark Panthers and Communists black nationalists and liberals in Southern California through the 60s and 70s and you can pledge online at kpfk.org or call 818 985 kpfk that's 818 985 5735 and you will receive this book as a thank you gift with your donation of $100 to the station Afric [Music] [Music] hotep this is Sister Luanda kaboka with this October 3rd weekly African drum beat historical calendar of critical events and leaders which we acknowledge by giving publicity to their contributions so that we may gain inspiration to continue on the Battle of human and spiritual values over greed and exploitation October 3rd 1952 the mama Revolution against British colonialism begins in Kenya Mau or the kikuu forest Fighters fought against the British efforts to make Kenya a white set Colonial like South Africa the Mau headed by donon kamti strategically targeted African Colonial collaborators as their primary target realizing that without collaborators England could not sustain domination against the masses of Africans October 3rd 1904 the people of Namibia Southwest Africa began arm struggle against German Colonial occupation after the heru genocidal Massacre and the first Holocaust of the 20th [Music] century October 5th 1945 the fifth pan-african Congress occurred in Manchester England this Congress gave a mass workingclass character to the panafrican movement as well as having in attendance Joo ginata George padmore Karman kruma CLR James and Amy Garvey the wife of Marcus Garvey this Congress called for the organization of mass political parties it was anti-capitalistic in nature and was the final confrontation with colonialism [Music] October 6th 1917 Fanny ler the powerful civil rights activist from the Sherer background was born she exposed the hypocrisy of the democratic party at the 1964 democratic convention in Atlantic City when the Democrats refused to acknowledge and seat the majority of citizens of Mississippi who were Africans October 7th 1897 Elijah Muhammad the leader of the Nation of Islam was born the Nation of Islam the largest Islamic activist organization in the United States under the teachings of Elijah Muhammad many convicts and gang members were transformed into contributing members of the African Community October 8th 1804 Haiti becomes an independent nation after Decades of brutal colonialism under the French October 8th 1967 the US CIA and its local puppets murder CH Goa in Bolivia CH the co-architect of the Cuban Revolution and an internationalist who fought in the Congo and throughout South America against Western Colonial and neoc Colonial domination of humanity October 9th 1980 sister Ida Jimmy the militant Freedom Fighter of Namibia was imprisoned by the racist South African government which refused the people of Namibia self-determination October 9th 1823 Mary Anne Shard Cary an African organizing in the US and Canada was a champion to fugitive slaves she was the leader of the black Immigration Movement she was also the first black woman to establish a newspaper in North America this is freedom now 90 .7 FM in Southern California and 98.7 FM in central California please check out our website at kpfk.org under programs then click on freedom now as in our tradition to build Unity we request that you join us by chanting Amanda a to three times this aan R cry means the power is ours so join us wherever you are amand to amand to amand to [Music] and we are back this is Sister theage with freedom now and black lives matter Los Angeles has just released a statement on mayor Karen bass's appointment of Jim McDonnell as the new Los Angeles Police Department chief and so here it goes the appointment of Jim McDonnell as LAPD chief of police is an absolute betrayal of the people and a STK contradiction to the progressive values mayor Karen bass claims to uphold of the list of finalists McDonald is by far the most problematic with a long history of anti-black and anti-immigrant policies which led to him being voted out as Los Angeles County sheriff in 2016 under his watch the Los Angeles sheriff's deputy gangs expanded terrorizing and killing community members including Nani finon John Horton and Anthony Vargas McDonald's Legacy also includes the inhumane and tortuous conditions inside Men's Central Jail conditioned so appalling that public outcry forced the County Board of Supervisors to agree to close the jail as Sheriff he collaborated with Federal immigration authorities to carry out massive deportation sweeps including targeting undocumented youth when he ran for sheriff in 2012 he was attempting to escape a disgraceful and Scandal ridden record as Long Beach police chief since being ousted McDonald has pedal himself in the private sector profiting personally from the overp policing industry we can only surmise that mayor bass appointed McDonald as a political play to appeal to conservatives and to Stave off attacks from the Los Angeles police Protective League it is also in line with the mayor's massive giveaways to police which now has a budget that exceeds any LAPD budget in history as a 29-year veteran of the Department chief McDonald threatens to continue ld's violence and Corruption which is literally bankrupting the city he is also sure to advance the mayor's agenda of criminalizing protest and quashing a free speech black lives matter Los Angeles is both dismayed and outraged by the Mayor's Choice we will continue our work to uphold police accountable and challenge elected officials who prioritize their own political Ambitions ahead of community interests and that is the statement by black lives matter Los Angeles on mayor Karen bass's appointment of Jim McDonnell as the new Los Angeles Police Department Chief and now we go to our prison radio commentaries with mumia Abu Jamal partial victory for uru the proposed political framework of leaders and supporters of the African people's Socialist Party perhaps best known as the uru movement in St Petersburg Florida has ended with a federal jury rejecting the government's biggest charge several members and supporters were charged as operators in support of a foreign government that government being Russia with the jury's rejection of that main charge the government's threat of over 10 years in prison also faded away party leader chairman omali Yesa penny p and Jesse Neville argued that their political opinions were protected Siege under the First Amendment to the Constitution covering freedom of speech former apsp member Augustus Roma Jr also face charges the Uhuru defendants were convicted of conspiracy but one wonders conspiring to do what if they weren't agents of a foreign power and the jury has so found of what could they have conspired to oppose the us Empire's Wars abroad hardly of crime for now auru won a significant partial victory for freedom of speech and the alleged right of freedom of Association if the Constitution really meant anything yuru 3 would never have been charged in the first place so we say free viu 3 K uru just means freedom with love not fear this is mumia Abu Jamal these commentaries are reported by prison radio Julian Assange finally goes home for Julian Assange of the online news agency known as Wikileaks he had to wonder if this day would ever come for he faced not only the enmity of governments including of course the US government but of much of the media for he scooped most of them with ease his work there unveiled the true face of Imperial War especially regarding the Iraq War where Americans killed civilians with impunity that made him an Enemy of the State but it didn't unmake him as a journalist in fact many of the same media that ATT attacked him saw no problem with using his scoops and reports he spent years in detention in a foreign Embassy and later in British custody most of his stauner supporters never wavered and finally he made his way home with love not fear this is mumia Abu Jamal these comment Aries are recorded by imprison radio on beneath the mountain dear readers I've written many books on a variety of subjects on J house lawyers on history on Black Liberation and other topics as a general rule I don't write about my books for in a way the books speak for themselves however today I make an exception today I write to introduce a work edited by me and my co-editor Dr Jennifer black an African-American literature scholar we pulled together works from the annals of popular resistance history from slave revolts to prison revolts from women's struggles to Native American struggles from workers radicals and revolutionary this new compilation is called beneath the mountain because that's where we found these Freedom Fighters and resistance Fighters beneath the mountain of repression and it has been virtually flying off the shells there are great names here like n Turner the great slave leader to John Brown the abolitionist from First Nations people like crazy horse to gono over 30 people are featured here in this work I hope you enjoy it if only half as much as we enjoyed bringing it straight to you with love not fear this is mumia Abu Jamal these commentaries are recorded by prison radio [Music] [Music] [Music] for kpfk Los Angeles this is Gerald horn and with me on the line is Gregory down department shair and professor of history at the University of California at Davis and co-author of the book Nat Turner black Prophet a Visionary history thank you for joining us on freedom now kpfk Los Angeles Gregory DS thank you so much for having me it's an honor to be with such a distinguished historian getto so who was net Turner and why did you co-write a book about him yeah let me split that question into into two parts and first uh and the most important is uh who is this man and what do you know what do we know about him um on the one hand we know quite a quite a bit about uh Nat we know you know he was born in in in 1800 we know that he lived his life in Southampton County um in the outskirts of what then was called Jerusalem but now has a new name of Courtland um and we know a fair amount about uh the white family that over Generations um had moved uh from the tide water and uh into into that region and um in the process had brought a number of enslaved people um including at some point some of the details of this get a little hard to pin down um Nat's grandmother and his mother and um and we know less about about his father that we have some some interesting references um we know that uh this was a region that was really transformed by the spread of a Methodist Revival um and we have strong reason to believe that when Nat was quoted as talking about his experiences in that Revival that those things are plausibly true he Des he is quoted as describing we could talk about you know why I'm being careful in saying that his experiences as a child in uh prayer meetings and and church meetings um and these things track with what we know both about the white Turner family and their sponsorship of a Methodist Church in the region um about some of the ways that methodism was transformed um we have good reason to think that people saw him as usual from an early age certainly this is the in that neighborhood something that comes up we'll talk later about sources among many people um you know reflect that and then we have a strong reason to believe that his parent his mother and grandmother perceived that it was possible his gifts could mean that he individually would be manumitted from slavery not a broad uh not a widespread emancipation or abolition but a specific manumission of a of a selected person um it becomes clear from the record that in his uh late teens early 20s um that instead he has passed several times among family members as there are deaths and other events that could have led to moments of emancipation um and that um by 1831 that he is being uh he uh you legally the property of a of a child of the of the extended family and under the control of a of a man who had married into it um and then we also know that in um in um in the in October 1831 um that a group of people of whom everyone says Nat is is the leader um launch uh one of the the two largest rebellions in US history by enslaved people um in uh along with one in in Louisiana called the German Coast Rebellion um and we know that in this in this March they they attack a number of families connected with either the white Turner family or families that had married into it other Methodist families especially the franciss that had married into uh into the into the Turner family and that they are Marching on the road that would lead them toward the county suit seat which is propitiously named uh Jerusalem um and we have fairly uh seemingly accurate readings of the number of people um houses they attack and and and people um who are uh killed in those attacks and then we have you know a number of records that describe a pitched battle um between uh White militia or posi that gather to to launch an attack and then counterattacks by the band that included Nat and then we have we know that a number of people Associated um with the um withn uh Legion we might say um are arrested and tortured and we have things that we say no you know that are claimed that they said under those those circumstances which raise real problems and we know it takes two months to before Nat himself is captured and this is a sign of uh you know great worry to people uh uh to white people uh and inspiration surely to Black Virginians and and others and that two months later um he is captured not very far at all from where the he had launched the Rebellion um and we know that he is he has tried and sentenced um and hung um we also know that he he met um with a local White attorney who was not his attorney um and that attorney then would publish this uh extraordinary document that purports to be his confessions and we can we can talk about that and then there's lots of things that we wish we knew right we have a good sense that many people are saying white and black that Nat was talking about visions that we'll discuss and that many people um white and black are interested in him as a particular religious prophet which is what gray quotes him as saying that he's a prophet like those from the Hebrew Bible um but you know we have to rely on that source to get to some of the details and then we know that there's also many people who say that in the aftermath there is a wide Campaign Of Terror um across uh Southside Virginia and spreading more widely as white posies and militia and just random people go out and and indiscriminately murder um black people whether involved in in the events or not um but we have very varying um sort you know sets of information on how many people under what circumstance ances and we also have rumors that Nat's Uprising his Rebellion is part of a much larger Rebellion that was planned across the region um but here too we run into real the sort of fascinating Source problems that you work with as a historian and and and I and all of us work with of traces and and extraordinary hints um but but difficulty in pinning down exactly how confident we should be uh of how widespread the knowledge of the rebellion was um so that's you know we know there was you know one of the great rebellions of enslaved people in US history we know there was an extraordinary person at the center of it uh and we know some things about his life in slavery and then there's a lot more that we can make educated judgments on but not certainties um I came to this I'm more a scholar of a little later you know the period of the coming of the Civil War War um the Emancipation during war time and reconstruction and the potential for revolutionary change after but a a close friend of mine Anthony Kay who was a scholar of slavery had been working on this coming out of his earlier work on how enslaved people understood their geography how they worked and operated across space and who they perceived as potential allies and who they were wary of and how geography shaped that he he got into the natat movement over time he got fascinated by the religious aspects of it and the ways that Nat is a specific kind of prophet was something Scholars struggled to capture and he also was diagnosed with esophageal cancer and so in 2016 he asked me if I would be prepared to take the book up if he if he died um you know we I agreed I met with him you know repeatedly over the next year um always in hopes that I would disappear back into the background as he recovered but but he did not and and he died in 2017 then it took me several years of going through his extensive his you know voluminous notes and drafts and trying to rework them into a book that captured at least one slice of what he was a of what Tony was aiming to do with this now with regard to this net Turner Revolt of the in slave in Virginia in 1831 was there a gender component to the story absolutely I mean I think um you know all all of human experiences are shaped by gendered expectations um and there's a scholar uh who I'm sure you know uh Vanessa Holden who has written about gender and childhood through the the the lens of the of the Revolt um and done an excellent job of cap Shing the distinct ways that enslaved women um responded to the revolt and captured both people who seem to be actively at least one woman who seems to be actively participating as a soldier other women who are clearly embracing the idea of uh you know what we might call Logistics of providing food and and and other um vital um materials to the armed man of mostly men uh and other women who um are skeptical or um opposed to it um as well as you know capturing the experience in a in an unusual way of of children which very few Scholars have have have have done with that kind of Acuity um so you know that's a great source um for there it's clear you know for those aspects it's clear to me you know um that um visions of a kind of Marshall manhood you know some of which echo through um biblical prophecy of uh the ways that you know men become go from prophets to generals to or soldiers to generals um do seem a piece of it and and Nat's initial band um appears by broad you know uh agreement to have been um as he's quoted later as saying a group of of of not only men um but enslaved men most of whom had known him for quite a while and some of them quote him as expressing concern about letting news get out too far um and so you know um and and so very clearly sort of masculinity in the idea of uh Marshall manhood are also a piece of it even as very clearly like every um effort at War it depends upon um and also provokes you know conflicting responses upon um women and children in the surrounding area and before we continue with the latter part of our interview we are in a fun drive and so we're going to take a station break Dr horn is going to tell us what you can get as a premium this hour with your donation to the station take it away Dr horn pledge a mere $100 and receive as a thank you gift the latest book from Gerald horn hot off the presses arm struggle put a question mark Panthers and Communists black nationalists and liberals in Southern California through the 60s and 7s read about the distinctions drawn between and amongst armed propaganda armed self-defense and armed struggle read the first detailed analysis of the shootout at the UCLA campus in January 1969 leaving two Panthers dead read the first detail analysis of the LAPD attack on Panther headquarters in December 1969 read the first detailed analysis of the August 1970 shootout at the Morin County Courthouse featuring Pasadena teenager Jonathan Jackson in an alleged attempt to free his elder brother George Jackson and read of the role of the recently deceased political prisoner relle McGee read the first detailed analysis of the attempt at UCLA to fire Professor Angela Davis because of her membership in the US Communist party and her subsequent trial when she was charged with murder conspiracy and kidnapping during the affir mentioned County Courthouse shootout read the first detailed analysis of the panther Embassy abroad in Algeria led by Eldridge cleever of Pasadena and watts and their attempt to build Global solidarity for the Black Liberation struggle read of the Panthers solidarity delegations to the nation then known as the People's Republic of the Congo in brazaville and of the Panthers Exile in socialist Cuba read of the connections between Hollywood communism Progressive such as screen writer Dalton Trumbo actor Jane Fonda actor Jean seberg screenwriter Donald freed basketball star Bill Walton and producer Bert Schneider and their support for the Panthers read of the severe repression visited upon radical and leftwing forces which set the stage for the rise of paramilitary forces often depicted as gangs and the concomitant rise of the drug epidemic especially crack cocaine read the first detailed analysis of the NAACP chapter in La especially the Beverly Hills Hollywood branch which was a cash cow for the National Organization not least because of the contributions from celebrities like Sammy Davis Jr read of the roots of K Quanza the nationally celebrated black American holiday above all understand why historically Southern California has been in the Vanguard of radicalism and revolutionary upsurges and how that Spirit has yet to be squashed again pledge a mere $100 and receive a signed copy of the latest book by Gerald horn armed struggle with a question mark Panthers and Communists black nationalists and liberals in Southern California through the 60s and 70s and you can pledge online at kpfk.org or call 818 985 kpfk that's 818 985 5735 and you will receive this book as a thank you gift with your donation of $100 to the station and now we return to our interview with Gregory DS the department chair and professor of history at UC Davis here to discuss his book Nat Turner black profit a Visionary history now what about Echoes of Haiti in the Revolt led by net Turner either in terms of the reaction to this Uprising or perhaps in terms of some of the enslaved brought to that part of Virginia Post 18 04 after the Triumph of the Haitian revolution yeah this as you know is a question a great interest to at least some historians and and and I and and I hope and think more um because we do know as you as as I don't need to tell you um that Haiti circulates as a model um among uh free people of color in the north um that enslave people you know being recorded upon their their flight um to the uh or Escape North you know you know talk about Haiti and that there are these glimmers of knowledge not just that Haiti happened but of detailed knowledge of Haiti among enslaved populations and we see um you know moments um that that we can really see that you know Windows into a question of what did enslave people know about Haiti an answer that says in some places an extraordinary amount not just that it's an inspiration but a real model and guide um and this had been true in the region around uh in Virginia more broadly and even in the region around uh Southampton County where Nat uh lives his life that as you know um there is much you know sort of wrestling with evidence that a um rebellion in um enrichment in 1800 is directly inspired by Haiti discussions of you know broad you know understanding of this among both free black and enslave people who participate as well as um moments these flash moments around Southampton County where a letter is found that seems to suggest a planned Insurrection that might be Rebellion that might be like Haiti um and uh you know counterattacks upon or attacks upon I should say upon enslaved people that seem motivated by white people's fear that there's about to be in their phrase another Haiti as well as Echoes among this in the Denmark basy Rebellion um as Nat is entering young adulthood um which has confluences with methodism uh and its Revival there and then there are some specific pieces of evidence related to the Revolt one of the plann days um that names different potential starting dates and delays and this has been a thing that has long s there you know or at least it was fascinating to Tony and that I tried to capture how do we explain those delays but one of the days that he considers as a date closely connected to Haiti an important anniversary we can't say for certain that that's why he picked it um and certainly he seems highly attuned to um you know anchoring a rebellion um in a way that you know gives him you know a on a Sunday night into Monday morning many of the days he floats with or that possibly because he expects not to have to fight on the next Sunday and has given himself maximum time but it's certainly you know um fascinating um to to wonder about that detailed knowledge as well as to wonder about his detailed knowledge of the ways that military campaigns had had preceded in Haiti as it is also sort of fascinating to wonder how much he knew about out the the military history of rebellions in Jamaica um you know which have been brilliantly excavated by by a number of historians including Vince Brown um and and other rebellions um not just as a general sense this is possible which I think all enslaved people knew whether they knew details or not but a detailed sense of um how this was possible what were the mechanisms that turned a inspired Revolt into a successful one well we also have glimmers of are two events that yet we might well consider as part of this history of of enslaved people's rebellions and these reach directly into the area around Nats um own residents and those are the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 that in both cases enslave people in Tidewater Virginia and in the revolution certainly in um Southside Virginia the next um just beyond that where Nat is from uh participated directly in fighting against Virginia's slaveholders and for the British army um because of those circumstances we don't always think of that as a form of enslaved people's Rebellion um though it tracks with other ways in which we can understand enslave people's Rebellion as seeking allies they can utilize to defeat their proximate enemies and we do have evidence that upon hearing rumors of something happening in the area around Nat's neighborhood that enslaved people elsewhere in the county and region say The British are here in essence that they time that they have this memory of enslaved military you know rebellion in service of overthrowing a local planter Elite whether with the assistance of an outside force or in Nat view with the assistance of Heaven so we have these these extraordinary glimmers and we certainly have signs of a resilience a resilient enduring view that Rebellion is possible um and also as in other things you know it would be amazing to get richer sources on exactly the the mechanisms by which knowledge of Haiti had been reproduced and what specifically about the military side of it have been reproduced among enslaved people white people undoubtedly refer to it as another Haiti as a way of justifying in their view their brutal Counterattack and so that manifests immediately and can be read as a window into how they're understanding the motivations of the enslaved people around them now as we suggested a few moments ago a good deal of what we know about this slave revolt in Virginia in 1831 comes from an account taken down by a euroamerican and Thomas Gray then pedals it how do you surmount the real or imagine biases of physic account now this is a crucial question I mean in some ways as as you all know it's the crucial question historians always face um because it's not that we're contrasting imperfect sources in one area with perfect sources in another and this is a uh a thing that a number of historians rais when there was wrestling in the 70s with some of the sources that um had been taken down of interviews taken down with formerly enslave people in the 1930s is there was a you know some scholarly backlash against using those um that a number of historians you know pointed out that they were being held to a standard of perfection that we don't hold any other source you know diplomatic Source or political source so we're always having to ask as as you all know um where did this come from how did this you know survive and also that qu those questions are always heightened in um situations of dramatic power imbalance and even more heightened in questions around slavery um because of the extreme difficulty in preserving um sources that are directly you know from the pen of enslaved people not impossibility as you all know and extraordinary ones do survive um but of large poet pockets of the uh you know the southern states where you know we do get only these even more flawed sources than all sources are and then we layer another problem on top of it which is it's actually not that easy to say with certainty all that much about a wide number of white people in Southampton County um that there are many um you know people white people who you know emerge or named at the fringes uh you know either as people who are attacked in the Revolt of whom we have only very sketchy knowledge um so there's also a class component on top of it that it's not just that we have sources from among you know from white people but we have sources from specific classes of of white people so we layer all that up and and and and as you know our job as historians is to face that and also figure out how and when to keep going Thomas Gray clearly is hugely self-interested that he shows up to interview Nat at a period where his finances are collapsing um where his uh you know family's finances are collapsing including the slave vast slave holding of his of his father um and um where his own prospects in life seem you know extremely marginal um he's taking on some cases appointed by the county um for other enslaved Rebels and he's also taking and then he's also looking to utilize the net case which he's not assigned to as a way to write a book that'll make money presumably he sees the journalists who flood into town hears about this and thinks it'll it'll make him a lot of money um whether it does or not we can't say for certain though he declares bankruptcy not all that much later so either he made it and spent it which is quite possible or that in that world of of copyright um you know it quickly got reproduced in ways that even he didn't um profit much from we don't know but certainly he's got a number of biases that uh we have to wrestle with one of which is you know the inherent biases of a you know people from a slaveholding class of the testimony of the language and words of enslaved people another is that he is uh himself uh atheistic and deeply believes not only that he fears certain types of enslaved people's Rebellion but religiously inspired ones um and that he seeks a Crackdown on the power of ministers and also seeks is suspicious of the amount of biracial meetings um that there are in Evangelical churches even if they happen in very hierarchical ways um and we have a strong sense that he is wey of the idea that there is a general crisis of slavery so these things can help us to understand how he produces a document where the parts of it that clearly are from him some parts are identified as Chris tomlin's you know painstakingly you know noted as being from his voice um and that those parts are really about saying the ways that this is a crisis caused by an unusual person motivated by religious fanaticism and the ways to respond to that are to take it seriously but not overgeneralize and in his other writings he's clearly part of a group of Elites a lot of whom are lawyers who say if we crack down on priests you know if we crack down on this religious this inherently destabilizing religious aspects if we crack down on free people of color even though they're not Central to the Rebellion although a few do participate and if we crack down on literacy we can restore a stability to slavery that's as against other groups of white Virginia who respond saying we need to consider the destruction of the you know eliminating uh shipping out all enslaved people to deep to the Deep South or other white Virginia who say we need a more active um direct military intervention everywhere so that's this weird this these particular lenses by which we get this extraordinary document um and for that we've got to be deeply suspicious and yet we also have other things that do overlap we have not just um this Vision we have the only the confessions gives the detail about Nat's Visions but almost everyone who is quote in the area talks about his vision sometimes just a trailing mention sometimes people noting that when he is captured um that he's talking about it incessantly sometimes people noting that other enslaved people are talking about Nat's description of his Visions it is possible to imagine a conspiracy that generated enough people to get all those stories very straight but it seems much more logical that there's some Confluence of an actual set of Visions there that many people know about and then a set of details we can say only come from Gray and that we have to treat a little bit more distinctly we might also be suspicious of the ways that enslaved women disappear from the confessions and it's really hard to know um how much of that is gray um creating that is way of minimizing the broad basee of the instability of slavery and the potential for broad-based Rebellion or how much n himself is steering away from them to protect a woman described in other sources as his wife as well as other people so there's all kinds of interesting puzzles um and Imperfections and also I do think by layering those sources as well as later sources of um oral histories and what sometimes is described as folklore that's spread among black Virginia we can see places of real residence um that echo through many of the sources where we might not have a lawyerly certainty but a real preponderance to believe that this is the most likely um that some of these things are quite likely to be true well Gregory DS Department Sheriff professor of history at UC Davis co-author of the book net Turner black profit a vision AR history thank you for joining us on freedom now kpfk Los Angeles thank you so much for having me it's been a delight pledge a mere $100 and receive as a thank you gift the latest book from Gerald horn hot off the presses arm struggle with a mark Panthers and Communists black nationalists and liberals and Southern California through the 60s and70s read about the distinctions drawn between and amongst armed propaganda armed self-defense and arm struggle read the first detailed analysis of the shootout at the UCLA campus in January 1969 leaving two Panthers dead read the first detailed analysis of the LAPD attack on Panther headqu ERS in December 1969 read the first detailed analysis of the August 1970 shootout at the Morin County Courthouse featuring Pasadena teenager Jonathan Jackson in an alleged attempt to free his elder brother George Jackson and read of the role of the recently deceased political prisoner relle McGee read the first detailed analysis of the attempt at UCLA to fire Professor Angela Davis because of her membership in the US Communist party and her subsequent trial when she was charged with murder conspiracy and kidnapping during the aformentioned county courthouse shootout read the first detailed analysis of the Panthers Embassy abroad in Algeria led by Eldridge cleaver of Pasadena and watts and their attempt to build Global solidarity for the Black Liberation struggle read of the Panthers solidarity delegations to the nation then known as the People's Republic of the Congo in brazaville and of the Panthers Exile in socialist Cuba read of the connections between Hollywood communism Progressive such as screenwriter Dalton Trumbo actor Jane Fonda actor Jean seberg screenwriter Donald freed basketball star Bill Walton and producer Bert Schneider and their support for the Panthers read of the severe repression visited upon radical and leftwing forces which set the stage for the rise of paramilitary forces often depicted as gangs and the concomitant rise of the drug epidemic especially crack cocaine read the first detailed analysis of the NAACP chapter in La especially the Beverly Hills Hollywood branch which was a cash cow for the National Organization not least because of the contributions from celebrities like Sammy Davis Jr read of the roots of K Quanza the nationally celebrated black American holiday above all understand why historically Southern California has been in the Vanguard of radicalism and revolutionary upsurges and how that Spirit has yet to be squashed again pledge of mere $100 and receive a sign copy of the latest book by Gerald horn armed struggle with a question mark Panthers and Communists black nationalists and liberals in Southern California through the 60s and 7s and you can pledge online at kpfk.org or call 818 985 kpfk that's 818 98557 35 and you will receive this book as a thank you gift with your donation of $100 to the station and in closing we'd like to thank all those who donated this hour to support Freedom now and kpfk Pacifica Radio thank you to to Our Guest Gregory DS thank you to our producers Dr Gerald horn brother Brandon sister Flora sister FEI our borop wendle and all those who made today's program possible please stay tuned for our sister auna coming up next with Spotlight Africa bringing you news for mother Africa signing off for Freedom now this is Sister th and until next week as always we stand ready for revolution we State these facts only to let you know that those of us who are revolutionary Pana africanist is not because we love Revolution it is historically determined and we have no alternative but to follow history and to use history for the benefit of our [Music] people to the people to the people free political prisoners free political prison all political prisoners [Music] he