Transcript for:
Anti-Zionism vs. Anti-Semitism

we uh our topic today when anti-zionism can become anti-Semitism we recognize is a topic with lots of opinions lots of emotions and and what we're we're going to try to be as neutral as possible uh we're going to present different views of the issue and what we'd like to do is let us get through our Nar ative slides and then we're going to go to a bunch of examples that are probably ambiguous where we'd like to open it up to discussion and comment so if you'll be patient and let us proceed that way I think that will be the uh most effective okay so let's Dive Right In to this rather Frau topic so let's start with definitions and putting everything in context all right the word Zion uh Hebrew ton originally was a Canaanite Hill Fortress in Jerusalem that was captured by King David it gave rise to the idea of Zionism as a movement that supported the establishment and and now supports the reestablishment and development of a Jewish homeland in the historic land of Israel it's emerged in the late 19 century is a response to widespread anti-Semitism and the persecution of Jews in Europe it's it's important to remember that live continuously uh could people mute themselves if uh Asha can you mute like every everyone else because we're getting a lot of feedback here thank you um it's important to remember that Jews have lived continuously within the historical land of Israel for 3,000 years while many were expelled at various times communities continued to exist under Roman rule and then ottoman rule particularly in safat and heon at least until the 1930s when the Hebron Jewish Community was mass but as well as in Jerusalem when Jews were allowed to return uh during the Autumn and uh occupation uh Zion Zionism contemplated the reuniting of Jews in the diaspora with the Jews who were already resident in the land the concept of political Zionism was largely created by an Austrian Theodor Herzel his view was that only in separate and independent nation would provide safety to Jews uh the first world Jewish Congress was in 1897 in Bal Switzerland he was instrumental in uh having that formed uh at the time there was an alternative concept of cultural Zionism that was Advanced by Asher Ginsburg who was uh well known also as his idea was that uh it was a central location for Jewish culture to thrive without necessarily having a governmental structure okay so as I think everyone knows in 19 19 48 uh the United Nations passed a uh resolution that established a partition of what had been the British uh trans Jordan territory into a uh an a Jewish country which became Israel and a uh Arab country which ended up being part of uh being governed by Jordan and is now the West Bank in Gaza uh uh within Israel today uh the ethnic identity is quite vared uh oh by the way u in 1948 as a result of the creation of the state of Israel uh substantial number of non-jews fled or were expelled from what became Israel and those groups were largely settled in refugee camps in Lebanon georia the West Bank and the Gaza Strip an approximately equal number of Jews fled or were expelled from Arab Nations mostly Syria Yemen Algeria Egypt and Morocco and they were absorbed into Israel as full citizens the descendants of those Mis rocki Jews as they are known came to dominate Israeli politics primarily in the lud party and its successors and spin-offs sir survivors of the Holocaust are mostly ashkanazi Jews and they also were welcomed into Israel during its early years after they were forbidden entry by the governing British prior to 1948 during the past 40 Years of Israel's existence most immigration has been from Ethiopia and the former Soviet Union with smaller groups from Iran South America and Western Europe primarily France in addition many Orthodox American Jews have moved to Israel on a permanent or seasonal basis and some of them became the foundation of the settler movement that now occupies substantial portions of East Jerusalem and the West Bank so today uh 73.6% of Israelis are Jewish 18% are Muslim about 2% Christian about 2% Jew Drews and 4 and a half% other uh the Muslims and the Christians are not required to serve in the Army the Drews do serve in the Army and they are full participants in the government uh the non-jewish population have full voting rights they do have representation in the knesset okay politically ashkanazi non-orthodox Jews in Israel tend to be somewhat liberal mrai and Orthodox Jews in Israel tend to be conservative and Jews of Russian origin are a mixed bag uh the Gaza War has dramatically increased a sense of solidarity with Israel among its 21% Arab minority who often identify as Palestinian and have long claimed of discrimination by the state that's a recent poll asked if they feel part of the country 70% of Arab citizens poed said yes up from 48% in June according to the Israel democracy Institute however just 27% of Arab respondents said they felt optimistic about Israel's future compared to 72% of Jews among Israel's Jewish minority 94% still part of the country you did that no you said minority it's majority majority sorry 94% feel part of the country according to the IDI that was a PE a peak last matched in 2003 when the country was at at the height of military operation in the occupied West Bank that would have been the second Ina if some will remember asked if given an alternative Western citizenship they would leave Israel 80% of Jewish respondents said they would stay as did 59% of Arab respondents okay so let's uh look at definitions anti- Zionism is opposition to Zionism and by extension to the state of Israel this can take many forms from political criticism of Israeli government policies to a rejection of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State most Jewish organizations distinguish between political criticism of Israeli government policies or actions which are they consider not anti-zionist in fact you see a lot of that within Jewish organizations themselves and within Israel as opposed to political positions that if implemented would result in either elimination of Israel as an independent nation or elimination of its Jewish character and that most Jewish organizations consider to be anti-zionist anti-Semitism is hostility Prejudice or discrimination against Jews as an ethnic religious or racial group it has a long history marked by persecution violence and systemic discrimination against Jews and these are some examples physical violence against persons who are or perceived as Jewish vandalism directed as Jews or Jewish institutions or those perceived as Jewish stereotyping Jews as money grubbing power hungry materialistic portraying Jews by using historically anti-semitic tropes large noses hooked noses eating non-jewish children Etc incidentally uh anti-Semitism uh has no hyphen it has no capital S anti Zionism does have a hyphen does have a capital Z but anti-Semitism isn't against anything it's it's its own it's its own character so what happens when you have anti- Zionism and accusations that that has become anti-Semitism I think everyone recognizes that it is certainly possible to critique the policies of the Israeli government or to oppose specific Israeli actions without being anti-semitic but there are many ways in which anti-zionism can cross into anti-Semitism uh some observers list these as the uh issues that arise when Zionism crosses into anti-Semitism and we'll talk about these in somewhat more detail delegitimization saying that Israel does not have a right to exist a demonization basically turning Israel into the worst country in the world uh double standards is somewhat similar in that you apply uh standards to Israel that you don't apply to any other country uh dehumanization and conspiratorial language the idea that Israel was responsible for 911 for example uh or that is not caring at all about Israeli lives uh historical context and sensitivity uh and symbolism and intent and we'll go into those as well so there are two competing definitions of anti-Semitism uh floating around today uh and they differ primarily in how they address criticism of Israel uh the international Holocaust remembrance Alliance has ProMag what they call a non-legally binding working definition of anti-semitism and this definition has been adopted by most European countries it's been adopted by the EU it's been adopted by some uh US government agencies and it is included in a uh anti-Semitism awareness act that was introduced in the House of Representatives on May 1st 2024 and that has been a subject of much debate that's right and in fact uh what happened on May 7th 6 days after the controversial Act was introduced in Congress the US Department of education's office of civil rights issued regulations to and I get this is quoting I'm quoting this ensure non-discrimination based on race color or national origin including shared ancestry or ethnic characteristics under title 6 these protections extend to students and school community members who are or are perceived because of their sh dared ancestry or ethnic characteristics to be Jewish Israeli Muslim Arab sik South Asian Hindu Palestinian or any other Faith or ancestry to be clear title six is protections against discrimination based on race color and national origin Encompass anti-Semitism and other forms of discrimination when based on shared ancestry or ethnic characteristics that's the end of the quote now you may think that the description that's under that first bullet there is somewhat non-controversial what causes the controversy are the examples included in the IH definition uh and the objections have come from left on the basis that the definition would prohibit legitimate criticism of Israel and we'll talk about that and they have come from the right particularly Marjorie Taylor green who says that this definition would prevent Christians from claiming that Jews killed Jesus uh you know take it from what is worth so here are the examples so the examples we've divided into two groups the first group are what I would call non-controversial and these are examples that don't relate to Israel so justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or extremist view of religion making mendacious dehumanizing demonizing or stereotypical allegations about Jews G to take over while I get some water yeah sure Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective such as the myth about World Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media economy government or other societal institutions accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoings committed by a single Jewish person or group or even for acts committed by non-jews and denying the fact scope mechanisms or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II I.E the Holocaust these are the non-controversial ones okay so let's look at the controversial ones and these seven these SE uh are seven controversial they're controversial because they all relate to Israel they all limit themselves to Israel accusing the Jews as a people or Israel as a state of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide than to the interests of their own Nations the Dual loyalty issue denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination for instance by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist Endeavor applying double standards by requiring of Israel Behavior not expected or demanded of any other Democratic Nation drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel or using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism to characterize Israel or Israelis so what's the competing definition of anti-semitism so this is from the Jerusalem Declaration on anti-semitism that was developed in 2020 by a group of Scholars in the fields of Holocaust history Jewish studies and Middle East studies and the objective was to provide clear guidance to identify and fight anti-Semitism while protecting free expression uh it was initially signed by 210 Scholars and now has about 350 signatories okay let me read these because they're little they're kind of small for you to see but they're important uh conscious of the historical persecution of Jews throughout history and of the universal lessons of the Holocaust and viewing with alarm the reassertion of anti-Semitism by groups that mobilize hatred and violence in politics society and on the internet we seek to provide a usable concise and historically informed core definition of anti-semitism with a set of guidelines the Jerusalem declaration responds to the IRA IH definition the document that was adopted by the IH in 2016 because the IH definition is unclear in key respects and widely open to different interpretations it has caused confusion and generated controversy hence weakening the fight against anti-Semitism noting that it calls itself a working definition we have sought to improve on it by offering a a clear core definition and be a coherent set of guidelines we hope this will be helpful for monitoring and combating anti-Semitism as well as for educational purposes we propose our non-legally binding declaration as an alternative to the IH definition institutions that have already adopted the IH definition can use our text as a tool for interpreting it the IH definition includes 11 examples of anti-Semitism seven of which focus on the state of Israel while this puts undue emphasis on one arena there is a widely felt need for Clarity on the limits of legitimate political speech and action concerning Zionism Israel and Palestine our aim is twofold one to strengthen the fight against anti-Semitism by clarifying what it is and how it is manifested two to protect a space for an open debate about the vexed question of the future of Israel Palestine we do not all share the same political views and we're not seeking to promote a partisan political agenda determining that a controversial viewer action is not anti-semitic implies neither that we endorse it nor that we do not so here is their definition anti-Semitism is discrimination Prejudice hostility or violence against Jews as Jews or Jewish institutions as Jewish it is racist to essentialize treat a character trait as inherent or to make sweeping negative generalizations about a given population what is true of racism in general is true of anti-Semitism in particular what is particular in classic anti-Semitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil this stands at the core of many anti-jewish fantasies such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which the Jews possess hidden power that they use to promote their own Collective agenda at the expense of other people anti-Semitism can be manifested in words visual images and deeds anti-Semitism can be direct or indirect explicit or coded denying or minimalizing the minimizing the Holocaust by claiming that deliberate Nazi Genocide of the Jews did not take place or that there were no extermination camps or gast Chambers or that the number of victims was a fraction of the actual total is anti-Semitic so they have some commentary on some of these so for example the linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present and the fantasy that the Jews control governments with a hidden hand that they own the banks control the media act as a state within a state or are responsible for spreading diseases such as covid-19 or Aids all of these features can be instrumentalized by different and even antagonistic political causes their examples of anti-Semitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy inherently stingy or unpatriotic in anti-semitic caricatures Jews are often depicted as grotesque with big noses or associated with wealth examples of anti-Semitic Deeds are assaulting someone because she or he is Jewish attacking a synagogue dobing swastikas on Jewish Graves or refusing to hire or promote people because they are Jewish anti-Semitism can be direct or indirect explicit or coded for example the rothchildes control the world is a coded statement about the alleged power of the Jews over Banks and international finance similarly portraying Israel as the ultimate Evil or gross ly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews in many cases identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgment taking account of these guidelines and then they similarly to the IH definition have examples of what is on its face anti-Semitic let me do it sure yeah applying the symbols images and negative stereotypes of classical anti-Semitism holding Jews collectively responsible for Israel's conduct or treating Jews simply because they're Jewish as agents of Israel requiring people because they're Jewish publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism for example at a political meeting assuming the non-israeli Jews simply because their Jews are necessarily more loyal to Israel than to their own countries and denying the right of the Jews in the state of Israel to exist and flourish collectively and individually as Jews in accordance with the principle of equality and then they have what I the more controversial aspects of the Jerusalem declaration are these examples that are not anti-semitic supporting the Palestinian demand for justice and the full Grant of their political National civil in human rights as encapsulated in international law criticizing or opposing Zionism as a form of nationalism or arguing for a variety of constitutional arrangements for Jews and Palestine Palestinians in the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean it is not anti-semitic to support Arrangements that ORD full equality to all inhabitants between the river and the Sea whether in two states a bational state unitary Democratic state federal state or in whatever form evidence-based criticism of Israel as a state this includes its institutions and founding principles it also includes its policies and practices domestic and abroad such as the conduct of Israel in the West Bank in Gaza the role Israel plays in the region or any other way in which as a state it influences a events in the world it is not anti-semitic to point out systemic racial discrimination in general the same Norms of debate that apply to other states and to other conflicts over National self-determination apply in the case of Israel and Palestine thus even if it is contentious it is not anti-semitic in and of itself to compare Israel with other historical cases including settler colonialism or aarte boycott disinvestment and sanctions are commonplace nonviolent forms of political protest against states in the Israeli case they are not in of themselves anti-semitic I'll finish it political speech does not have to be measured proportional tempered or reasonable to be protected under Article 19 of the universal Declaration of Human Rights or article 10 of the European convention on human rights and other human rights instruments CRI ISM that some may see as excessive or contentious or as reflecting a double standard is not in and of itself anti-semitic in general the line between anti-semitic and non- anti-semitic speech is different from the line between unreasonable and reasonable speech and before we get to specific signs uh we want to talk a bit about the campus protests uh the first headline here is from The New York Times uh from a couple of weeks ago on campus a new social litmus test Zionist or not this actually isn't that new it's been going on in some campuses for three or four years and it comes from a concept called intersectionality the idea that in order to be anti-racist you also have to be uh Pro Palestinian you have to be anti-israel and in order to allow Jewish student students to enter Progressive spaces they've been required to disavow Israel and this has expanded considerably since October the second uh headline is from the Los Angeles times and it focuses on the UCLA encampment where apparently the uh protesters were demanding of people wanting to enter campus uh through certain through the protest lines if they were zionists they were refused entry and here's an example of that I'm going to uh stop the share and then share this video you share yep so let's start this I think we need can we uh start it over there we go I got to unmuted that's the problem there we go okay we are youa students I have my ID right here I'm being blocked off not by the security guard but by YouTu two you three oh look they're making their bur well I'm going this way excuse this is what they do everybody look at this look at this I'm a UCLA student I deserve to go here we pay tuition this is our school and they're not letting me walk in my class is over there I want to use that entrance why I can't take will you let me go in this going to be over in a second just let me and my friends go in to class we're not engaging with then you can move will you move we're not engaging with okay we're going we're going I'm going in I don't I have my hands up I'm not hurting them I'm not hurting them that's what they do that's what they do everybody you guys are promoting aggression you guys are promoting hate where you see students we deserve to be there let's go okay one one other clip because it's both both sides have some issues here so the UCLA uh protests also uh gave rise to a counter protest and at in the middle of the night uh you had a situation where some pro-israel people went and uh P NC NPC [ __ ] [ __ ] NPC NPC no place in this world [ __ ] you why are you out here by yourself hey hey stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop so it's not pretty what's going on on campuses what has been going on on campuses and uh it's sad so now let's open it up and we'll start by looking at various protest signs so here's a uh image of an Israeli flag that says no war is just a legitimate is it anti-semitic or what comments oh okay I'll throw in the comment uh I to me it depends on the context so in this context of your showing it there's no background there's no context so it's hard to make a comment on uh whether it's anti-semitic or not for me yeah I mean is it saying that Israel should not have started the war is it saying Israel should not be at War it is your right ambiguous is it blaming the war entirely on isra which is a problem given that it started with the Hamas attack so yeah it's ambiguous you're right okay here's one and the genocide as many of you know uh South Africa has filed a complaint at the international criminal court saying that Israel is engaged in genocide in Gaza and the way it is fighting the war the criminal court has not said definitively that they are it is essentially criticized severely uh Israel allegedly blocking uh food and Medical Aid and energy uh from going Crossing into Gaza and claiming that that is genocidal uh I have a real problem with that personally because to me genocide is wiping out people because of who they are uh that is not the only definition of genocide Susan it also includes removing people from a particular area of land completely yeah and and of course how you you know the United States killed more Iraqis than Israel has killed in Gaza uh during the war and Hamas has deliberately put hostages and there fighters in among the civilian population we know that so so I have a I have a problem with calling what's going on in Gaza genocide it's horrible no no question about it and uh the line between genocide and crimes against humanity are very vague yes that's where the problem arises yeah yeah so the other question on on this kind of protest is are you holding Israel to a different standard what's going on in Myanmar with the rohinga what's going on in China with the uh weers that is what's going on in Sudan Sudan uh you know those are to me clear examples of genocide Gaza not so much and why focus on Gaza and not on any of the other worst things going on around the world I have a problem with that the only reason is that the US has more influence on Israel than it does with the other countries that you mentioned I think Biden would wish that were true go ahead we have we have a comment from and ask let her do it go ahead okay I want to comment about genocide genocide as it was done by Adolf Hitler and the Germans was a determination to root out every single Jewish person no matter where they were in this case there are not there are Arabs living in Israel no one is trying to kill them no one is trying to kill every single Arab or Palestinian however you wish to label them on the other hand the pal the the Hamas group does want to commit genocide they would like every single Israeli dead have finish goodbye we want that land that would be genocide as far as I'm concerned but what what the accusing Israel of genocide does not fit the definition of genocide in my opinion let me let me just make one other comment on that uh I was talking to uh uh Jonathan greenblat recently he's the head of the ADL and he was in Israel a few weeks ago and the ADL has been prominent in supporting the rights of Arabs within Israel there it's a civil rights organization and he was meeting with uh the largest Arab town just south of Lebanon an area that most Jewish uh villages have fled from because of the bombing from Hezbollah and this Arab Village refuses to leave and what they told Jonathan uniformly was uh we are zionists we love it here we have no intention of leaving this is our land this is our country we hope Israel wipes out Hamas it's interesting you know and the poll that I talked about earlier supports that the Muslims within Israel are supportive of the war and that to me argues against the idea that this is a genocide because they're not after the gazin as Palestinians they're they're after that area because they want to get the hostages out Hamas could end the war tomorrow they won't even accept the Biden propos proposal well they can end the war by surrendering it that's what you're saying which I don't want to do the Biden proposal doesn't call for their surrender well it kind of does because but what you have is Israel saying that even after the after they surrender we're going to go after them yeah well why not so why would they surrender is why would they agree that yes but they they're the one that hold cards right now they have the hostages yeah but they they have the upper hand Israel only has one thing that they can do destroy them somehow and if the Palestinians in that area you know it's War it's war and there are rules of War too that was going to be my point is that you know as a military guy we were schooled often and repeatedly on what the rules of law are and what the uh for example the proportionality in response and for example uh when the uh when the halis were attacking the ships in in the US Navy sunk three of the four vessels why did they not sink the fourth because of the rules of war the laws of armed Warfare we're taught not to you can't use a hammer to squash of mosquito you can't pursue someone who is no longer a threat so how do you no no so so but again so so the legitimate criticism of Israel is not in my opinion does not flow over into genocide but they certainly certainly clearly are exceeding the proportionality by a scale that's that's uh not been seen in a very long time how do you go that's not no that's not the point how do you go into a city a fortified basically City fortified tunnels fortified things without losing also hundreds of thousands of your own men so so that comes to the point that's why we have these laws of of War of international Warfare so this is a challenge so you can flout the laws and do what you want which is what they are doing or you can come up with a different solution come up with a solution it's not my job I'm just I'm just I'm just observing that they are violating the rules of rules of armed Warfare it it I don't see how you fight a war I I agree with you you could say argue the same thing with roshima right in Nagasaki you could go we why we do it because we don't want to lose hundreds of thousands of men but you can and have and we've been justly criticized for that granted okay so this is the story can be criticized but they have to continue it okay let let's hold that debate because it will never end and look at some more examples okay here's Zionism in the form of a bomb I view this as not anti-semitic it's saying Israel shouldn't be dropping bombs that's a legitimate position to take I don't agree with it but it's a legitimate position to take it's not anti-semitic anyone disagree with me well one question is whether it uh there's a different balance caused by a uh Palestinian in a in a CAA in the same picture that change the context not to me okay has a it does change the context to me to me it looks like uh the Palestinian wants to draw that bomb Dro that bomb on Israel to destroy Zionism yeah but that's a legitimate position of War so again that's I so I consider that I just make my comment then I'll be quiet for a few minutes um that's another uh called symbol out of context so we don't know what the context is and you know we're all interpreting it as uh it appears to us and that's not that's not healthy all right then let's look at the next one before you go on with that I have a question is expansionism of Israel Zionism are you talking about the West Bank talking of the West Bank I'm talking of East Jerusalem and so on okay so there there are debates significant disagreement and debates within Israel about the West Bank uh there are significant human rights groups within Israel protesting what goes on on the West Bank there's not a whole lot of debate within Israel about East Jerusalem although there are substantial groups within Israel who would be willing to create a uh Palestinian Capital within East Jerusalem that would no longer be part of Israel so you can't say that Zionism means taking over the West Bank and East Jerusalem there are zionists who want to do that and there are zionists who don't want to do that I don't think you can say that uh Zionism is necessarily expansionism there is expansionist zionists and there are zionists who oppose expansionist zionists does that address your question partially because what we had was in the case of East Jerusalem and on the West Bank you've got people being pushed out of uh uh their land and the question becomes is that Zionism or not I thought talk about anti-Semitism I'm not sure I'm not sure why you've changed the subject yeah uh uh asoke the the Israeli Supreme Court has been quite active in resisting some of those evictions some are consistent with law some are not but again the question of whether Israel should expand into the West Bank is a question being hotly debated within Israel so I don't think you can say it's Zionist or not Zionist it's different views of what Israel should or wants to be so again let's move back to anti-semitic is it anti-semitic to argue for boycott divestment and sanctions I will tell you that I have a disagreement with my own organization the ADL on this I think it is not anti-semitic if the boycott divestment and sanctions are limited to actions on the West Bank in Gaza in other words I don't think it's a problem for someone to say I don't want to buy Israeli wine that's grown uh you know in Vineyards in occupied territory and there are some uh but I believe it is anti-Semitic to have a boycott of everything Israeli so for example there are demands among a number of the protesters now to eliminate all exchange programs with Israel to refuse to allow Israeli Scholars to come onto campus even if those Israeli Scholars are anti-zionist and many of them are uh it's that to me is anti-Semitic they're saying if you have any relationship to Israel we don't allow you to be here also there's no unanimity in the Jewish Community about the idea of boycott divestment and sanction uh as we had on the slide the Jerusalem declaration pretty much indicated that it was okay but there are a number of Jewish organizations that uh think it's veren completely Julia you have a comment yeah I have a question now can we deviate a little bit from the definitions of genocide and anti-semitic and Zionism and what do you think the reason Hamas created this or you know invaded and did these horrible things why do you think this happened oh I think they did it to Forstall the coming agreement between Saudi Arabia and Israel just for that reason oh absolutely and why did why is that so threatening to them because it would it would take the Palestinian issue off of everyone's Front Burner if you had a uh if you had a regionwise uh Alliance that included all the pre all the Arab states surrounding Palestine and Israel focused on fighting Iran remember Iran is hamas's primary uh sponsor right along esbah and the hois it would endanger Iran and thereby endanger you know hamas's whole reason for being and and the way they make their money uh so that's the reason they did it it's also quite possible we'll we'll never know that the uh armed wing of Hamas did this on their own without consultation with the political wing of Hamas so the armed wing then would be focused on this s s um agreement I I don't see that yeah they they because it would make them irrelevant and remember their goal is to destroy Israel that's their stated goal they've never right right I mean they've said it yeah they've said it uh the other thing to remember is that it would not have succeeded if Netanyahu hadn't been so incompetent and focused on the west bank that's where I'm that's where I dwell on this thing and that's why like 80% of Israelis want to see Netanyahu gone but they can't force an election as long as he can keep his Coalition together and do you do you see that possibility happening it's it's I I don't I I can't predict uh Benny G uh left the unity cabinet that strengthens the hand of the two crazy right Ringers in the government they've said if Netanyahu accepts the ceasefire proposal from Biden they will leave the government if they leave the government there will be an election uh the question is do does Netanyahu care more about the country than it does about his political future uh I have my doubts about that me too uh if that happen if if he says no just to keep his Coalition together you're going to see hundreds of thousands of Israelis in the street right hopefully oh no question no question you're already seeing it thank you yeah I have I have another question do you think that Hamas uh realized that Netanyahu would act this way after they attacked did they oh yes no no question they they they want it they've already they've publicly said that they need to see more and more of their civilians die wow they've said that they've said that in an interview last week they can afford to out they can afford to outweight the Israelis it's their strategy they want to win the propaganda war and they don't care about losing people they're all Martyrs to the cause John go ahead yeah this this is a little off line but this reminds me of the uh of 911 which I always thought was uh it its purpose was to get the US to overreact and to go kind of crazy into into Iraq and things like that so yeah that's sort of the way I feel about it and and the and the more everybody feeds on definitions of anti-Semitism instead of looking at the Strategic it just inflames everybody so they can't get together and think logically about the political Dynamics and the military Dynamics okay let let's get back to our anti-Semitism versus anti-zionism because I got some great examples here okay here's a uh a phrase coined by Malcolm X uh he was of course talking about fighting uh Jim Crow by any means necessary it has been adopted by the Palestinian uh protesters and in many views this just is viewed as justifying what Hamas did on nine on October 7th any comments anyone disagree that this is anti-Semitic I find it ironic that the CE side behind it doesn't say mean the same thing as the sign in front right that's correct right genocide of Jews is okay yeah I think they're both wrong yeah okay so here are from the river to the sea has been a very hotly debated phrase and here are two examples of it the one on the left is the one used by most of the Palestinian Pro Palestinian protesters from the river to the Sea Palestine will be free well of course that involves elimination of Israel as a state and for most Israelis that means they die uh on the right you see a variation on from The River To The Sea hope freedom and peace from the river to the sea with a peace symbol so I'd argue the left one is anti-Semitic the right one is not so again from the river to the Sea depends on context funny thing is the Israelis and the some Israelis and the Gin Hamas sort of agree they both want the other PL people just go away yes they both agree on the river to the Sea just a question of who's going to be there after we get the river to the Sea yeah certainly you know the the right- wiers in in uh netanyahu's cabinet thinks from The River To The Sea it should all be Jewish yeah that's that's equally offensive in my view that's not a that's not a stretch I mean that is what a lot of what the far right in Israel believes not only that there it's it's a small minority parts of the government that have said that what is that parts of the government have said that two two of the the most right-wing ministers in the government Ben gavier and the other guy I forget his name they've said it smotri they've said it uh they do not represent anywhere close to a majority of Israelis they're very small very small part of the Coalition you can say the same thing about Hamas they don't didn't represent the Palestinians except they're governing the Gaza Strip accepting that that was a governing that was supported by Netanyahu Netanyahu has not supported those statements he's disavowed it you can't ascribe a statement by some the government is by far from unified and you can't ascribe uh a statement by some person in the government to Israel any more than you can ascribe statements by Marjorie Taylor green the United States she's a still a statement is politician in the United States she says all kinds of crazy things okay how about this one you've got a uh swastika inside a Jewish star this is from an Italian protest uh calling Israel assassins oh this we can agree on list can I comment on your last slide I you didn't see my hand I think oh I'm sorry go ahead from the from the river to the sea has become um a catchphrase now and every time I see it I don't care if you put hope and freedom or whatever else you put on the sign with it I consider it very an it just flips a switch in me uh it's just become a slogan of the anti-israeli forces so I consider that very anti-semitic Jerusalem declaration didn't agree with you but yeah again that's uh so that's that's where the debate that's the line of the debate and that's why I put up these slides I fig these are the uh close calls okay how about a swastika inside a Jewish star I think everybody agrees that's a testic right by the way the swastika by itself is not necessarily anti-semitic corre true because it was Hindu right that is a Hindu religious symbol yeah but but yeah that's true every I I would say we all know that but that's not it stands for in the west I understand but I'm saying people seem to equate it all the time yeah although the Indian symbol has the has the bars going the wrong way the other way depends on which way you look at it that's both it doesn't matter we all know what this means you put it in the context of a Jewish star it's not the Indian symbol the I just wanted to make the point that the symbol itself is not yes but if you put it on a Jewish institution or Jewish star then it is yes yes okay okay this one I put in just because I find it so ironic uh Hamas kills queer people oh my God right you know if you're a uh Islamic State you're not allowed to be gay and yet you've got quers for Palestine just just saying well you're equating the uh theocracy in in Iran with Muslims in general yes the um Susan I think I have to say something because this is making me very uncomfortable and maybe lots of other people on in the session um there is a legitimacy to uh people wanting to people who are Palestinians wanting to live uh free as the Israelis live and you know in a democratic State they want they want to be recognized for who they are and so when I when I see these uh posters from uh from the ocean to the sea or the The River To The Sea I don't automatically anymore take those as automattic Al anti-semitic they may be anti-zionists but but they're not saying kill the Jews that's anti-semitic so because people in this country and other places are supporting the Palestine Liberation movement that's not anti-semitic so I just want to make that clear yeah I I think where the it is anti-Semitic Camp comes from from is the idea that in order for the river to the sea to be Palestinian you eliminate the state of Israel that's anti-zionist anti-zionist and the question is if you do that what are the consequences what are the inevitable consequences and that's where I think there's a debate and there are some prominent Jewish thinkers Peter Bart most notably who say well that's the way we should be going we should have one Democratic state that incorporates Gaza the West Bank and Israel and how they think we're going to get there without killing Jews is beyond me but there is a legitimate view uh within the Jewish community that says that okay Israel equals racism and genocide well there's no question that there is racism within Israel there's also no question that there are organizations with Israel fighting that racism uh quite a few in fact um just as there are organizations within the United States fighting the unquestioned racism within the United States does that make the government racist well there is an argument that having the right of return only for Jews is inherently racist and that I don't think is necessarily an anti-semitic argument okay let's look at okay can you have have so is this joke anti-semitic yes uses a stereotype funny I know I love it I love it I just thought I had to throw that in I it's it's terrific okay here are a couple of interesting uh protests on the left you have an Israeli flag with a picture of Netanyahu covered in blood on it on the right you have another picture of Netanyahu you are the boss you are to blame are either of these anti-semitic no no no they're not anti-semitic they're anti right can I make a quick comment go ahead go ahead may I make yeah before we it's almost time for we're over time actually and I just think in some way or another we have to talk about anti-Semitism how dangerous it is today and that anyone Christians and Jews Among Us needs to stand up and say this is not a helpful remark this is not a true statement we have to know the facts and we have to be able to say this is the wrong thing for you to be saying this is not a good way for our country to go I just think we have to work very hard on this I asked a Christian friend what she thought was the reason for anti-Semitism and she said the killing of Christ okay this goes back a long way another one would say because you drink the blood of Christ these are ancient things these have nothing to do with Gaza they have nothing to do with Palestinians these are ancient anti-semitic tropes and we have to talk about that if not today we have to talk about among ourselves and do something actively I agree with you and totally on that but John you got a comment J June okay go ahead Susan Susan go ahead Ed so you might be curious where these come from these both are from an anti- Netanyahu protest in Tel Aviv in March so these are Jewish protesters Israeli protesters in Tel Aviv I just thought I'd throw those in and finally I like this one that's our last protest sign and three languages Palestinian lives matter this is also from one of the uh Israeli protest marches okay that's all we got well one thing I wanted to mention before we adjourn is that yesterday some of us had an opportunity in religions and faiths to listen to uh Rabbi Ed Rosenthal and uh Mindy Rosenthal who's the director of ard's Hillel and with all the uh recriminations and issues going on on campuses all over the country apparently uh from uh to hear him tell it Israel eard did a wonderful job of uh convening symposia uh during the fall semester after October 7th and they had they had sessions every week and uh there was a situation where the president of Hillel uh was uh under particularly uh violent attacks by anonymous online sources and they were able to take it to ard's Administration and to hillel's International offices and uh you know kind of pursue the uh the offending online website so it was good to hear that eard had a proactive uh group of people involved and avoided uh a lot of the controversy had uh uh engulfed other campus engulfed other campuses thank you Pa thank you thank everybody I want to thank everybody for keeping this civil in a very emotional and fraught subject thank you all thanks for everybody's participation