Transcript for:
Tupac's Jail Experience and Relationships

[Music] Welcome to the art of dialogue. Uh we have a special guest, a very very special guest uh by the name of Donald Richardson. Uh the author to the book Behind the Walls with Tupac Shakur Riker's Island. Uh welcome to the art of dialogue. Uh Donald, thank you for letting me be here. How you doing, Bill? Wonderful. Wonderful. I'mma start it off like this. Uh, you once said, "I'm a living witness to his life and legacy." You promised to share stories of your time at Riker's Island with Tupac Shakur. Uh, basically with stories that only you could tell. So, right now, I'd like to dive into that journey with you if it's okay. Sure, not a problem. On the book cover, there's a striking photo of you and Tupac standing in front of a jail cell at Riker's Island. Where did you get the camera from to capture such a powerful image? Well, the way that a camera was placed into the facility was by a correctional officer bringing it in, which was very, very not a part of their job description. So, I had the highlights of taking pictures, having them take pictures with me and Tupac Shakur. This moment was a very, very exciting moment for me because I didn't think that the correction officers would actually bring in a camera. It really, it really shocked me that they went beyond their call of duty. However, it was the highlight of my times with Tupac in prison. So, actually, you know what I mean? I have the pictures that were illegally taken in Raket Island by the correctional officers. And I didn't understand how they would pull it off. It shocked me, Del, that they would actually do it. So when it was done, I actually had pictures of me and Tupac with the prison bars behind us. So it made me it made me some type of like closer to Tupac, you know? So that's what I I tell I tell the story of how Tupac and I really um got these pictures and photos uh put into this facility. I I I was amazed. I couldn't believe that it would actually, you know what I'm saying, happen. However, it did. And I have the exclusive photos of me and Tupac that no one no one no one has. And so on the picture uh is you in that white sweatshirt. Um there's an actual uh cloth in the uh purview behind the bars when you and him are holding hands and actually giving up the middle finger. Um was that actually his cell or was that what what was that white sheet back there? Is that could so people couldn't see him sleep or what? No, no, no. That was actually his shower role, you know. And the pictures like you can see in in in the book, the shower the shower curtain is there to to hide and shield a person taking a shower, right? And the bars are there to protect the person that's supposed to be highly classified, you know, because he was considered highly high classification at the time. And there was there was still no one to be interact with Tupac. That's what the whole thing was. There was no one to interact with. This right here would protect him from other high classification people that would been housing back here in this area. But as you can see right, his shower room would be directly beside his cell. his cell would be on the right side and if he had two other high classification inmates in there, they would have to be locked in when he takes a shower. So, it's it kind of protects the the high classification person that's placed in this unit and it protects the person from having any interaction with any other inmate. So this is why they have the this shower curtain and cell bars there to lock him in when he does take his shower. So for the protection for the protection of of everyone cuz as you know well as you know what happened with Tupac he actually uh he actually had uh been he's he's been the judge had mandated him to be in this type of unit because of his celebrity status and it made me having contact with him illegal. I was never supposed to have any contact with Tupac. Remember, the judge had actually says no, no one can have interaction with this celebrity because he's mandated to be high classified. Now, in retrospect, I myself was a high classification inmate, not because I was a celebrity or had the statue of being a celebrity. I was affiliated with gangs inside the the jail. And what happened was I was a threat to the population at hand. So they had to separate me and put me in this unit, which is like a solid it's like a solitary confinement, right? But it's for the protection of the inmates. You know what I'm saying? I was very very um into um a lot of violence. Um, I was into having if people put my name as somebody getting say a stab, cut, you know, which was my nature and my reputation at the time cuz I was on my own. Let me say, you know, I didn't have any type of um excuse my French, but I didn't have any type of uh, you know, love for people with celebrity status that had money that came into the prison system because I felt that my reputation was alone a person of interest. So yeah, I I really I really um had the highlights of um meeting with Tupac in there. But at first I tell you I tell you that that I didn't really look look up to Tupac. I wasn't his fan, right? I wasn't his friend. He was just a ordinary person to me. And that's what got Tupac to really like me for some apparent reason because I wasn't harassing him to be his friend or know about his celebrity status. I didn't really care. I had no no type of feelings that he was a personal a person of interest more than I was. So So let me ask you this. you you went into your gang uh history. Uh what if you don't mind me asking what member or what gang were you with? Was it Blood [ __ ] Vice Lord? What? Yeah, I was a member of the Bloods and I actually had uh put myself in a situation where it's that I didn't give a damn. I ain't g by nobody but what I was, you know, banging for. So, you know, it did. I didn't care. I was a I didn't give a type of person. So, my statute, my reputation grew. I inherited um respect. I demanded respect from from people and I actually didn't feel that um I was really harmful but I was in retrospect. I was very harmful to others. I did a lot of dirt. I did a lot of time in jail and actually when Tupac when Tupac came I didn't feel you know that he was someone that I needed to respect you know I mean I seen Juice you know what I mean I seen a couple of poetic justice but didn't phase you know um I admired my my own pictures, my own movies. I was making my own movies. So this is why this is how I this is how I roll. I roll solo mostly and I demanded my respect. So placed in this unit. We was both the same type of involuntary protective custody. We were both in the same stature but different limelights. You understand what I'm saying, right? Like, yeah. You know, so he he actually he actually respected that and seeing that in me that I had a little bit of authority, that I had a little bit of, you know, stature, you know, so it I started getting a little respect out of him. So all the people that were in the unit, right, that wanted him to rap for them and wanted, "Hey, Tupac man, you know, hey man, what's going on, man? Yo, bust a ride for me and all this." See, I never did that. I actually um held a position as a suicide aid. But on the on the picture on the uh once again on the cover of the book, you see Tupac. Is is that a cigarette in his mouth? Yeah, we we allowed to smoke. He was allowed to smoke, you know, we allowed to uh smoke cigarettes in certain areas of the dormatory. You couldn't smoke anywhere. And the way and the closing this right here. Go ahead. So, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Oh, this right here. This right here is in his unit area where you're allowed to smoke. In the dormatory area that he wasn't allowed to go in, you couldn't smoke. So the clothes that you guys have on, you know, usually when you in jail, right, you have like um the state issued clothes. So you guys were allowed to wear your own clothes. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. You know, we were allowed to use our own wear our own clothes only in we can we would have to wear um the uh jailhouse uniforms when we go on a visit. You know, when we go on a visit, you have to wear it the the the symbol of the jail house uniform. You can't wear your street clothes on a visit. That was just something a rule that policy that they had made up at that time. But yes, you know, you're allowed to wear your own clothes. Um, you're allowed to um actually you you can actually have clothes sent up in the facility and store it away if you wanted change of um different type of attire. Yeah. So, yeah, it was, you know, it it it was amazing. It was amazing that um like the clothes that he actually had on was given to me, you know. I actually has them as souvenirs, you know, which is something that I cherish to this day. I'm very proud that I had the highlights of having the clothes, very clothes that Tupac wore and it's it's like a memoir for me. So, so when did he uh when did he give the clothes to you? Well, he was it was he was transferred. The officers actually he had to go to Clinton Correctional Facility. He was on transfer and when he is on transfer all the clothes that a person has has to be discarded, given away or thrown away cuz now you going to a state facility. It's no more a Riker's Island or county county uh uh time that you're doing. You're actually now going to a prison, a real prison. The rules are different. Way different. And this is something that Tupac didn't understand. What actually inspired you to write this book other than your experience with Tupac Shakur? Was it a message that you were trying to send or was it something that you just had to get off of your chest? Well, both. For one, I wanted to express h how Tupac really was behind bars. I think I'm the only one that can really reveal who Tupac, how he how he stood up, how he presented himself, what he felt about people in general. Um, you never see you never hear about a person true feelings. someone like Tupac who was inspired who inspired the thug life model his true feelings a person's true feelings come out when they're incarcerated I don't it don't matter they're who you can present an image you to the public but once you're behind bars it's a different image your true feelings come out you cannot hide the faces that you can hide in public. So, this inspired me to write about Tupac's true feelings, how he felt, what he thought about. I'm sure everyone know how he was in jail. Did he hold it down? Was he a was he a punk? You know, um uh did he give up his commissary? You know, was he being, you know, chumped? But I'm the only one that can reveal the true story of Tupac in jail. And it's it's really um inspired me to write this book so I can actually tell the public about my experience. So in jail. Yeah. Yeah. With that being said, at at that particular time, uh, what were you incarcerated for? Well, I had um I had got arrested. I've been in jail numerous times in in the past, but I got arrested for a gun charge. Um, and that gun charge led me to Rikers Island. And it gave me a a year in Rikers Island to actually um, you know, state it was it was county time. It wasn't state time. Um, I was out and about doing my thug [ __ ] like everyone else. You know what I'm saying? And I was, you know, repping my sets and I'd had to take this year bid for this gun cuz they would have actually gave me more time upstate. It's a difference. When you get arrested for a gun charge, which I did, you can actually get a few years for it. I didn't. I cpped out to a year, which was their first cop out, and that's how I landed in Riker's Island. Given the nature of Tupac's charges, did you or anyone else at Riker's Island hold any resentment towards him based on the sexual nature of his charge? Well, they have a few inmates that probably they did have uh resentment because of his charge, his sexual charge. I specifically had no me myself I had no resentment for his charge because like I said I didn't give a damn about anybody's charge unless like sexual charge unless I seen paperwork. So yeah, people do have, you know, there was some inmates who who disagreed with his sexual charge. And that's goes without saying. That's what that's the code that people go by inside of prison. You know, anybody with a sexual charge is is is is not to be respected, you know, and they're supposed to be separated and not supposed to be one of the gang or you know you know you you you're out as a um you know a person of disinterest. So yeah, there was some inmates who actually had resentment for Tupac because of his charge. But how about you? How how did you feel? Like I said, you being, you know, a member of the blood and and you being in there, you seeing him, you knowing he's a celebrity. Um uh did you have any pre-nowledge or were you guys watching television and things of that nature? So when he came in there, you didn't really have any kind of different kind of uh look at him or the way you looked at him based on his chart. I'm going be honest with you. I'm going be honest with you, Joe. I did at first I did have a little bit of resentment, right? But not as much as others because I was I was not a person that would just judge a person. I would give a person the benefit of the doubt to see if this really was true nature, his true nature. And then the charges uh were attached with paperwork that he really did actually have this sexual charge because a lot of people come in jail with sexual charges that's fabricated by the females that they indulge with. So, you know, I gave a person the benefit of the doubt and that's the way that I had to represent myself to um you know, my position at hand. Tupac actually, you know what I'm saying, did have a couple people that had told me that, yo, you know, he, you know, he's in here for this and this and that. You know what I mean? And I just disregarded them. I says, "Well, you know, you never know who has sexual charges. The person that inmate that could be talking to could have a sexual charge. So, it gives it here or there, but yeah, I did have a little resentment at first." Tupac eventually opened up to you, recognizing the respect you commanded from both the guards and inmates. What do you think he saw in you that made him feel safe? My demeanor, my stance as having authority, having a reputation, people respected me, people looked up to me. He seen that I didn't really pay him as much interest as other inmates. It it it it gave him the inclination that, you know, I was different from his fans, quote unquote, and it gave him um some type of um cons, you know, it gave him some type of ability to say, damn, I would actually I'm saying like to know this person, you know what I'm saying? Maybe as a friend. You know what I'm saying? Because he he definitely is not my fan. He's not a groupy. He's not even talking to me. You know, like everybody else is coming up to Tupac's Cell, you know, uh you know, you know, quote unquote. You know what I'm saying? um you know honest on his I wasn't you know that gave him the inclination that man um this guy this guy man I I think that mean um I would just like to be you know friends with this guy this is what he projected himself at I've seen it and if that's what you got to do and I'm saying that's what I had to I had to show um people that I didn't give a damn about it. I ain't give a you know what I mean? You know, you know, and this inclined him to actually say, "Man, this guy's got respect in here. The cos respect him. Um nobody to him. He looks like a little mean machine. You know, he's thugged out too, you know." But he really was seeing more thug the in me than his portrayal of thug life that he was portraying in the streets. So I was a real thug. I really had it in me. I put a lot of work in, you know. Um, you know, I I I I demanded mine. So maybe he said to himself, "But maybe he's maybe I'm not a thug like this. I want to learn how to be." See, he was actually learning from me of how I presented myself of what a thug actually considered to be. You know what I mean? I was really I was really that, you know, I was really that dude, you know? So, this inspired him to want me wanting to get close to me, wanting to talk to me. And it took a while. So, it took a while. You also you also had a position in the jail in Riker's Island uh that you had a job and and uh you said in the book he also recognized that you had a job and a responsibility in dealing with the other inmates that the uh the prison and you were getting paid to do that job. Was that another reason um that he was kind of drawn towards you based on your freedom and your ability to roam and move around doing your job? Yeah, most definitely. See, this was his way of of of of getting close to someone who who can actually um make something happen for him. This is someone that maybe can hold him down. Uh someone that can pull some strings for him. Yes. He's seen that I had a little juice. He's seeing that I I I act I I I had power that he didn't have. So this inclined him to actually, you know, I'm saying, want feel safe, you know what I mean? And feel that maybe um uh I ain't got to worry about the other guys. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? As long as I have Don to hold me down, you know? So this is what he was working on behind, you know, his uh his his way of trying to put his way the way of trying to trying to tell himself that I would like to be feeling, you know, a little at ease around him. So yeah, he he he wanted to get close to me. He wanted he he wanted me to um open up to him and you know he felt that he wanted to open up to me I guess and he felt safe. He felt he felt that's kind of connection would be something that he would pursue because I didn't pursue him. So it made him feel like you know bam man this dude's got a job. He's a suicide aid. You know, he holds it down. He w looks out for people. And this was that's what I did. I had to watch that people don't, you know, my my job consisted of not have nobody hurting theirself, nobody hangs theel, nobody, you know, injures theirel. Yeah. He so he felt he felt at ease that I can be the person to hold him down, you know, basically. So So when when you said you had the job as a suicide aid, um, so what what were the details? What what did your job entail? You know, you you doing what? You walking around what? Checking. Yeah. Well, I would have to Yes. Yeah. I would have to check sales. I would have to watch out watch the anybody middle of the night because they are people who who can't take jail. They got people who are very weak. They got people who actually will kill theel, will hang up, will cut theirel. And this is my my my job description was to make sure that they didn't go all out with their their attempts at suicide. My title was a suicide aid. So that enacted me to people to talk to me, people to say, you know, can I talk to you? And I had a few people that wanted to talk to me about how they were feeling about being in jail and they can't take it and they want to end their life and you know so I had to have the ability to talk them out of hurting himself or doing any damage or harm to anybody else. Yes, that was my job description and it made my it made my um it made my reputation in there that much higher because people looked up to me and it went on and on and Tupac seen this. You know, he's seen it. He's seen that and that really inspired him to to reach out to me, to feel safe enough to confide in me and tell his story of the things that he wanted to share. Because people people really look for someone in jail to share with, you know, to to to express their truest feelings, to expose things that they don't expose to people in public. Yep. So, I had my I had that type of um respect. In the book, you wrote that during his isolation, Tupac began to truly understand who he was and what he was facing. Can you elaborate on that transformation? Yeah, cuz I actually got into Tupac's mindset of how he felt like like he it came a time that he wanted to actually not be a part of his what his heritage was involved in. You know that as we know, you know, he he was his his his family was affiliated and um he didn't want to be a part of that. He didn't want to be he wanted this he wanted to show who he truly was. And this is when he started to understand that that was not his that was not his intention to follow in the footsteps of his family being involved with the Black Panther Party. He didn't want to be a revolutionary like them. He was intense was not to when he expressed to me that he wanted to be Tupac, right? And what that meant to him, it meant that he wanted to be his own way and do his own thing. and he did he he didn't want to be pressured about setting uh any type of a stage to the world that to be a revolutionary. People didn't understand him. I did. After a while, Dale it gave to the point was that he actually put itself in a position that I seen to let me know how he truly felt about that. And that's something that no one knows about Tupac or no one could understand about Tupac. I really had got a little bit more into what he really wanted to be and it wasn't a revolutionary. You know, thug life was something that he really had to find out what it really meant. So, he was at a war with himself. I seen the war within himself as he tried to put himself in knowing wanting to know who he really was. Yeah. He he he really he really it really got into itself knowing um that I would listen to him. So it was a challenge. It was a challenge. It was a challenge for him and it was a challenge for him to be able to put away his thug life image. And I really I I really felt that this is something that he needed. He needed me he needed to share with me something he never shared with the public before because he has two different it was two different types of people. So the thug life and jail life. Yeah. So what so what you're basically saying is he was in a crossroads between uh the revol the revolutionary side of what his parents had brought him up to be and the thug life and being in jail and something that he represented publicly to his fans. Yes. Yes. Like I said, he was at war with himself, but he started getting in touch with his true feelings, his true emotions in there like most people do. Well, you know, uh, I had to learn that myself. I did a, you know, I had to find out who I was. And when I was in the streets, when I was running with gangs in the streets, you know what I'm saying? Starting off, I could I It was It's a different image. It was a different image that you project to society. and the image that when you're incarcerated behind the walls, you have your truest emotions and feelings come out. And that's what Tupac was waring against. You know what I mean? whether he should follow through with his his family's um reputation as being a revolutionary or his feeling of being who he was and not being a part of that, you know, would it would affect him? Would it affect his family? Would his family give up on him? You know what I'm saying? Would he would he would he um disappoint them? This is what Tupac was warning. And um I seen it. I seen it with my own true eyes and I felt it. I really felt Tupac's demeanor, you know. So he was it was different. A lot of people didn't know Tupac like I did, you know. They just knew his thug life in the streets and what he rejected. Is it true that Tupac endured inhumane treatment like being locked in his cell for two weeks straight without any recreation time? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I can vividly remember the time that Tupac Tupac actually Tupac screamed out of hell. You know, when I'm going to get wrecked. He was screaming to the cos and I I heard him and I, you know, he's like, "Yo, I want to get out this cage. I want to get the out of here. Y'all got me locked up in this damn cage like I'm some damn animal. You know what I'm saying? I want to go out like everybody else. You know what I'm saying? I want to be like them out there. You know, cuz he was separated from us. It was like a, you know, he it was a dorm unit and it was his high classification unit was always under lock and key. So he felt like why I can't go out there and play cards with them, right? So he's like, I want to get the out of this cell that he demanded to the sales. He screamed. I heard this and I came to my sister's pocket. What's going on? You know, this is when we got, you know, we we still we got we we got to know each other. You know what I'm saying? We got to be, you know, we we got to be associates. Yeah. So, um, yeah, he he he he actually screamed out of the cell that day, "I want to get the out of this cell." The officers told him, "We can't just let you out, P. We can't just let you out the cell, man." You know what I'm saying? You get in trouble. You know what I'm saying? You know me? So, I don't go I want to be out the cell just like them. So I took it upon myself to talk to talk to the co. I said, "Let me let me see if I can talk to him. No, let me see if I can, you know, you know, use my juice. Maybe I can get him out." It was a thought, you know, maybe I can get on the sale, you know. So I talked to the co. I let me Why are you let him out? He said, "Man, if I let him out and he gets hurt, something happens, he gets cut, you know, our job is online. You know what's going to happen? You know, we're going to lose our job. I said, "Listen, you see how I hold it down in here. You see the respect I got. You know, you nobody with me. You know what I mean? Anybody going to be I'm going to know." So he says, "Yeah, you you do you got the respect for us, you know, but man, you know, letting him out, man. You know, I said he said, "Let me let me think about it." You know what I mean? I said, "All right." So this is when the idea I put into this correction officers, you know what I mean, to let me use my juice. You know what I'm saying? Let me see if I can get you out. So, you know, I did I went to park and I told him I said, "Man, listen. Let me work on something. Let me see if I can get you out of You can. You can. You can." He couldn't believe that I can do it, but then he did believe that I could probably do it because of my reputation, my status in there. You know what I'm saying? So, he said, "Come on, player man. Try to get me out." So I worked on it with them and um you know he he he trusted I can he trusted me that I can make it happen. You know what I mean? You know and I trusted in myself that I can make it happen. So yeah, you know, took a couple days. But I actually um had one of the officers come to me a couple days later and said, "Hey yo, man, I was thinking about what what you said to me and um I would like to let him out, but man, if I do, will you make sure nothing happened to him?" I said, "Come on, man. That's not even a problem. He said, "Come on, man. You know, you know what I mean? Like, all right. You know, I I'll I'll do it. But if I do it, man, I'm saying um you know, you got to ask Tupac to do me a favor." I said, "Ask Tupac to do you a favor now? Well, now what's what's this got to do with you?" And he said, Dell, he says, I want some pictures. I want some pictures for my daughter. They know me with Tupac. I said, P, how the we going to do that? He says, I'll bring in a camera. That's going to bring no camera. You going to bring in a camera? Come on, man. Yo, did you know there that this mother brought a camera in? I mean, I said, oh, he said. So, won't get into that, but not right now. But, you know, Yes. You know, that was the play the bring in the camera. You know what I'm saying? You know, so, so basically what you saying it was favorable for a favor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so see how you work with each other. You know what I'm saying? So you know, so now with that being said, understood understanding that um so when Tupac got out of his cell, how did they work around the other gods and the other hierarchy in in the prison, let's say the captains and the sergeants and all of that so that this one god wouldn't get in trouble? How did they navigate that? Well, they act uh the the the officers knew that at certain times the captain comes around. Tupac couldn't be out when a captain came around because that would jeopardize their job. looking out for the captain was their main objective to make sure that when he is let out it's timing captain comes around at 1:30 I'm saying to do his his little checkin Tupac cannot be coming out at that time so it was a worked out whereas that if they they let Tupac out it it It it can't be at certain times. All right. Explain it to explain it to Tupac. It was the same thing. Explain it to Tupac. It was like Tupac, you have to run. If they let you out, you have to run back to your cell. They they gave him Tess. Let's see how fast you can run back to your cell. If a captain does come around, let's see if you can get to your cell quick. Do you know Tupac? They gave him the test of running around the dorm. Tupac waiting around that dorm. It's it so less of time cuz he wanted to come out so bad right to run to his cell just in case the captain came and uh they seen how quick he was. You know, he was very fast. Tik Pocket was fast mother. I ain't going to lie. He amazed me sometime. So they put him on a test run. Go run around the dorm. He ran around the dorm. We're back in the cell and sat on his bed like like said, "All right." He said, "All right." So now we can see that Tupac is on the same page with us so we don't jeopardize our job. You know what I mean? And we know that Dawn is going to hold him down. So, okay. And I can get these pictures for my daughter. See? One hand wash the other. You know what I mean? And two hands wash the face. So it worked out. You know what I mean? Whereas that, you know, everybody's on the same page. And Tupac actually, you know what I'm saying? Gave himself gave Well, no, not gave itself, excuse me. He gave he gave me permission to consent, right, for them bringing the camera and taking pictures of Tupac. Cuz he didn't want to do it. Tupac wanted. He said, "Man, I don't give a about taking no pictures." No cos saying, right? So he says, "You gonna be it's for you." I said, "Yeah." He said, "Oh, player. Your old player, man. But if you going to get pictures, yeah, but I really don't give a damn about them." You know what I'm saying? So, I told him, "Listen, man. The only way you can get pictures for your your daughter or your niece is that I got to be in them." He said, "I don't give a, you know what I'm saying? You can be in them." So, that's how came up with the pictures of me and Tupac. You know, they brought that camera in. So you said that there was a uh a cue or a situation where when the captain would come to the dorm that the other co who was watching and that was actually in the dorm would basically give you guys a sign that Tupac had to run back to himself. Can you give me a specific incident where that happened and and and what went on and how would that take place? Yeah. Well, u the seal would um indicate, you know, it's it's that time to wrap it up. You know what I'm saying? It's that time, you know. So, I would, you know, look over and see that sign come up. You know what I'm saying? I told Tupac, you know, you know, you got to go back to your cell. So yeah, it was a time specifically when you know they they they they did that and Tupac bolted back to his cell with the quickness and the captain came by and seen Tupac in his cell and everything was normal because he has to check on him to see if he's still, you know, not interacting with any inmates. So yeah, it was a it was a time when he did actually do that. You know what I mean? But the the cue was wrap it up. So we we had to keep looking at the officer cuz the other officer that was looking out, he gave the cue to the other officer. So they held each other down to let us know he has to go. Captain is on his on his walk. You mentioned that a correctional officer would turn the blind eye allowing you and Tupac to hang out with the other inmates or namely Tupac and you guys would smoke, not cigarettes, but you know what I mean. Uh, can you talk to us about that and how that would go down and Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, sure. Um, they would let me and Pac smoke weed together. You know what I mean? Um, when I inquired about it, I said, "Listen, me and Pac want we want to smoke some weed. So, is it all right?" You know what I mean? Permission. We can go in the back by his cell unit, smoke weed, you know? He said, ' Man, sure, but make sure you, you know, put some powder, you know, I'm I'm going to turn my back and let you do what you're going to do because, you know, you know, you're looking out for us. You know what I mean? So, we can't deny you that. You know what I'm saying? You're holding Tupac down, man. You know what I'm saying? You know, you know, just make sure, you know, when you do it, you know, you know, don't don't blow it up. Don't make it seem like, you know, you know that you're giving us um any type of inclination. Don't We're not We're not We don't want to know. We don't want to know what's what's going on. Do what you got to do, you know, and that's it, you know. I ain't I ain't got no problem with that, you know. Just don't blow it up. Don't make it look obvious. So yeah, there was times when he would let they would let me and Tupac go there and smoke weed, you know. So I would I would rather I would get it because Tupac didn't have access to getting it. I would get it myself. So yeah, we would go back there, we would blow we would blow it down and you know the the officers actually, you know, didn't give a about it. And so it was it was it was it was it was something to look forward to me and Tupac going back there and blowing it down and saying before we go out to you know I get him out to sell. So you know they didn't they they they they turned they turned their back. You know what I mean? They gave me that type of you know respect. Was that was that a common thing at Riker's Island where you know not only just you guys but other inmates that it was like contraband in the prison like that? Of course. Of course, man. It was it was Let me tell you something. There was more contraband. There was more drugs. There was more illegal addity going on in there than you could imagine, you know. And uh we weren't the only ones. You know what I'm saying? I mean like Yeah. You know, it had to do with drugs, uh um uh uh uh shanks, um any type of illegal thing that goes down. A lot of it had to do with correction officers being involved, you know. you know, and it's it you wouldn't think because there was the law, but yeah, it's a lot of illegalities going on in jail that you wouldn't you wouldn't even believe that would take place. So, you know, I I really understood, you know, that um favor for favor. They turned their back. They let me and Tupac do our thing. We do, you know, they get some pitches. Yeah. So, everybody's everybody's happy. Everybody's looked out for. But it's a common thing though. It's a common thing. So, a lot of the country band will come through the guards. How else is he going to get it in there? You know, so you know, if the cos bring it in, you really got um you know, a more of a leeway. You know what I'm saying? just, you know, not only drugs, you know, you know, it it it was there was other [ __ ] going on in there that, you know, at that time when I was in Ragus Island that you wouldn't even um believe, you know, with with the correctional officers, female correctional officers maybe um uh solicitating and goes on and on and goes on and on. There's always a sense of caution in jail when you meet somebody new. What was the turning point when Tupac finally let his guard down and started trusting you? Um, the turning point I vividly remember is Tupac. Um he gave me um he gave me the in the insight that he wanted to share something with me. I mean because of my, you know, ability to perform that type of um, you know, action with the cos to get him to come out of cell to get him to be able to mingle with other inmates. Not only did he trust me and confide in me, he shared with me things that you would never believe that Tupac would share with somebody. So the turning point came when he he trusted me to to share with him. He he he he he trusted me to be a part of his his feelings, you know, and when I seen him share with me his feelings, when I he gave me who he really was, we became friends, not a fan. I was never his fan. We became buddies. And it was hard for people to be Tupac never really had no buddies or friends. I was like I gave [Music] him the inclination to know what a friend is. And when you in jail incarcerated in solitude and behind the behind them walls, you need a friend. you'd want to share with them some things you never share with nobody before and it came out. His emotions, true emotions came out, you know, versus publicly. So, so he definitely he he definitely there's a turning point in his life where he figured that, you know, he would put himself in that position. I mean, open himself up to me. What what was one of the things that you can remember that you thought that was important that Tupac shared with you, his feelings for woman, his feelings for uh woman in general. He he had a disposition of looked at as that he hated he he he he he the [ __ ] and when he when he when he says in the song about females being [ __ ] and everything that's not who he truly was. That's not who he truly felt about his mother. Coincidence, his mother, Mafini Shakur, he had a love for his mother and he he had a love for woman in general versus what was displayed in public, you know, everyone thought that, oh man, he calls woman [ __ ] and he didn't got no love for no woman, you know. So he he was looked at, you know, differently. You know, he expressed to me out of the love he had for a woman and that he shared a moment of reflection with his mother that he couldn't do, he couldn't share with the public. Yeah. There's been times that, you know, he broke down and cried. You know, I seen him shed tears. Now, in public, you wouldn't see Tupac shedding no tear though. He wouldn't He wouldn't You would see Tupac cry. Who going to see Tupac cry? You know what I mean? So, his image his image changed. And only me, I can just tell you the the the moments that I seen that change in who he really was when he broke down. So would you say so would you say he was more vulnerable being in that environment uh where there's no fans and you stripped of you know the notoriety and the fame and all of those things? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You only can be who you are. You know, you can't hide who you really are in jail behind the walls, you know, because you you can't no one's no one's really giving a no one's looking at you. I mean, you know, Tupac, you know, nobody give a right about all right, that's Tupac. Well, some people do, but most people in jail you just like me. My name is My name is Don, you know what I mean? Or his name is Larry. You know what I mean? know. Yo, everyone inside of prison is the same. You know, you know, you you're not too you're not the celebrity no more. You you know, you're you're you're the you're the you're the inmate next door. You know, you're the guy who's going a child, you know, I mean, you're you're the guy who I'm saying who, you know, is just an ordinary Joe. So, fame and celebrity status and people don't give a [ __ ] about that prison. They don't give a you know. So you can do that [ __ ] on out there in the publicly where you can hide you can hide your true feelings. Oh, thug life, you know what I'm saying? This and that. I'm gangster. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because you don't you can't share it. You can't share it. You cannot share who you are out there cuz you projecting your image like Tupac was. He was projecting a a real image out there, you know? So from my perspective, thug life, all that. You know what I'm saying? It's a facade that people didn't see. So being behind there with me, it was no thug life with me. You all that go out the window. Either we be we be we be cool buddies, friends, but I'm not going to be on your I'm not going to chase you down. I don't want no autograph. You know what I'm saying? You know, so that's a difference with was me and his relationship than it was versus the other people in in jail. you know, so it made a big difference in his his his his him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him him sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sharing with me, you know what I mean? And and me seeing his true feelings, you know, and that's the way it is with anybody in jail, you know. You know the thug life and that gangster and that [ __ ] you know what I'm saying the world and don't ask me for you know man listen you know you just like a ordinary Joe and you get out of line slap the [ __ ] out of you [ __ ] you up stab you whatever the case may be but you know being your fan yeah it's just certain people that just don't give a you noticed that Tupac wore different color bandanas at Riker's Island. In your view, those colors signified gang affiliation. Can you explain how prison politics around that played out between you and Tupac and other inmates? Yeah. Well, the different bandanas that he wore with different colors, it signified that he was universal with it. I mean, you can't be in all the gangs at one time, but you know, Tupac wasn't with a click like that. He wasn't He wasn't He wasn't a gang member. He he he showed that as showing his position as being having love for all, you know, being really neutral, you know, in that aspect. So he couldn't be pinpointed as being a certain gang member because he wasn't. And this was his portrayal of showing that I got love for all the gangs. I mean Crips Blush and you know what I mean? Like you know but being involved in a gang Tupac was wasn't you know he had love for all gangs. This is the way he expressed himself. So at this time with them little colors and flags that he had on him that he would wear all around, he would come out and say, "Hey, plays like damn, you got mad mad mad colors on you." You know, you know, he says, "Yeah, man." Because you know, you know, that's the way he gets down. I mean, like he wants to be, you know, show that every gang, man. I'm saying, "Yo, I'm cool with y'all. I'm cool with y'all. I'm cool with y'all." you know, but I'm not one of y'all like that, you know. So, that was his way of showing him to be neutral in that aspect. So, did you ever talk to Tupac about his gang affiliation or in being involved, you know, with a gang or or try to convince him to to join a gang, your gang? Of course. That's that's what I that's what my duty is, you know what I mean? To get him to come home, you know, you know, you know, and I spoke about it, you know, and I told him, but he wouldn't he wouldn't budge on it, you know. He wouldn't he wouldn't budge on being a member of the Bloods. This was not something that he wanted to portray. He He got love for you. I got love for you, he would say. But, you know, getting involved and being one of the members, you know, he he he he didn't he wouldn't take a hold for that. So, so, so basically what you're saying, even being a suicide, you know, aid and all of those things, you seen Tupac wearing all these bandanas, you yourself tried to convince him to become a Blood member or a member of the Blood Nation and and so so what was that conversation like? Well, like I said, he wouldn't budge on being a blood when I was exposed when I exposed him to being affiliated with me. He deni denied wanting to be partaking in it. That was just his form of letting me know that oh, I got love for you. I you know but I would never become a gang member you know what I'm saying in that in that aspect. So yeah he he really held firm on just not partaking in being a blood. So even even though he was in prison at Riker's Island and you know what did what did that reveal to you that he refused to uh be affiliated you know with the the set of the bloods that you were from being from New York and being in Riker's Island. Well I actually I I did I didn't really see I didn't really see too much into it. Right. It it it it it it bothered me a little bit. You know what I'm saying? That he wouldn't come, you know, home or or be affiliated with with my set, but I had to respect it. I had to respect it, you know, but I did shoot it at him. I just I I did give him the knowledge that, you know, he he would be a part of something that I hold down as dearly and that I'm dedicated to, you know, and it would make me feel a lot more, you know, at ease with him being a member of one of my click, you know, but it, you know, he wouldn't he wouldn't budge, you know. He kept it he kept it universal, you know. You got to give that to pot. He did he he wanted love from all all sex, all gangs, all he wanted, you know, you know, he wanted to feel that he can go anywhere and be, you know, and be cool with any set, you know, any gang, you know, he came in contact with, whether it was MS-13, whether it was NETA, whether it's Blood, whether it was [ __ ] or whatever. Yeah, you a little bit older than Tupac and you said that you weren't originally a fan of his music and really didn't know anything about him other than the movies that he was in until one moment in the jail. It completely changed your mind. Tell me what happened. He told me that he's got to take a he's got to use a bathroom, right? I said, "Yo, hold up." He said, "No, no." He says, "I'll be back and when I come back, right, I'm I'm I'm gonna write a whole rhyme." I said, "Come on back." You know, Tupac went and it wasn't long. maybe five, 10 minutes. He went and take a came back and he had a whole rap song written on toilet paper on toilet paper. I mean that's he you know he that's how creative and that he was in that aspect of writing. changed my mindset say wow you know what I'm saying I mean like you know yeah and then you know it gave me the inspiration that it inspired me to be to like his music and it was amazing how he did that because I ain't seen nobody I haven't witnessed nobody in my life write a rhyme in five or 10 minutes while taking a and write it on toilet paper. So that was a highlight. That was a highlight in my time with Tupac being there. Yep. And did you did you actually get a chance to hear what the what the rhyme was about? The uh the rhyme was about the rhyme was about [Music] um woman if I remember the rhyme was about his love for woman and you know his mother you know and yeah it it it it truly um shocked me the way he um he placed it. You know what I mean? that that rap song, you know, so it made me it made me feel that his music is um you know is worth something. It's spiring, you know. I I'll listen to his [ __ ] from now on, you know. It was my change turning point. So was it more on a hardcore level or you know about what just women growing up, poverty? Yeah, it it was it was to to me it was more sentimental, you know, you know, it showed the sentimental uh side of him, you know, for woman, you know. So that inspired me to listen to his his music or had a love for how he was so creative in that aspect. So it wasn't about like gangster like gangster stuff or the the gangster uh rap that we Right. Right. We would later come to know him for. It wasn't about nothing like that. No. No. So, it changed my perspective of how verse wellversed he is, you know what I mean? And how his, you know, a a side of him would change to from hardcore to, you know, what they would call softcore if you per say, you know. So it it really it really it really it really gave me inspired me to listen to his music from now on. And something I never did. And what would you say even today? What is your favorite Tupac song? Well, Dell, I have to say my favorite Tupac song is Dear Mama. Okay. Dear Mama, that's a lot of uh people's uh favorite song by Tupac. You describe Tupac as having the hunger of a wolf, but also having a gentle, loving spirit that he couldn't hide. From your experience, how did those two sides show themselves with him being at Riker's Island? Well, they showed theirelves in the matter of to me personally it shows who he truly was. It shows Tupac's true image. It shows that central sentimental part of him that he did not share to the public. So him trying to the thug life and this sentimental part I'm saying I mean of being like you know you know like a lamb I would say a lamb you know or you know it it it gave it gave me the insight of Tupac's true demeanor and nature it it it g I respected that I got to put it there I respected that he could not really portray his thug life image like he wanted to or continue in jail as he did in the public. So, you know, it it that that alone inspired me to have a love for Tupac saying, but understanding that this had to come out and I'm the only one that can share that story with you, with the public about his true demeanor, you know, behind the walls. You said in the book that you witnessed Tupac's cry not just for himself but for the struggles of black men. Can you share one of those emotional moments where you seen Tupac cry not for just himself but for the struggle of black men in America? Yeah. Yeah. I can truly remember the time that he wept. He was I I I heard him like kind of weeping because I always had to check on everybody and you know I I said, "Man, is that Tupac crying?" Right. He was sobbing. He had his he had his head, you know what I mean? You know, in his legs and and he was and I said I said I said, "Pop and it startled him." You know what I'm saying? I said, "You all right?" He said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, player. I'm all right." You know what I mean? Because I caught him weeping and crying. I seen that sentimental moment that no one don't see. He says, "Yeah." I says, "So, what's going on? You know, I mean, you know, you know, you need to talk to me. You know what I'm saying? You need to share something. I mean, like, come on. I'm here, man." He said, "No, I'm just going through, you know, things about, you know, the struggles that people are having, you know, the youth, people my age, you know, but you know, he he wanted to really express more about how he felt that the youths today and you know how they following in his footsteps and he didn't really want that. You know what I mean? He didn't want them to follow in the footsteps of this thug life image, you know? He wanted to bring about something that would make a difference, you know, to the youths of today, you know, and yesterday. And yeah, he cried for the he was weeping about his, you know, his mother's situation, you know, and what's really going on out there and people following him, Tupac per se, which affected him and it made him it made him think of different things to expose, you know, and different way of showing and these youths that it's not cool to follow in his foot. It's not cool to be a thug life. It's, you know, it it's don't follow in my footsteps. You know what I'm saying? Just learn from my my experience. You know what I mean? Be let me be an example of if you know like he always expressed if he dies. This this is something that I was very touchy about him being, you know, having this this insight that he was going to die before his time. And he didn't want people with the youth today following his footsteps because it it's not the way to live. Thug life is not you know when he wanted to share his um his feelings about this in a different insight. So do you think from from seeing him cry in that moment, did you share anything? What was your conversation with him in regards to seeing him, you know, talk about how he didn't want the youth to follow behind him? You know, his mother's situation, you know, I'm sure being incarcerated, all of those things. What was your advice to Tupac being an older statesman who had years that you've done years in the penitentiary, you know, what was your advice to him? Yeah. My advice, my advice to him because of my situation and me being a product of this type of gangsterism and thug life and going back and forth to jail and you know, you know, doing so much time that I didn't want the youth to to be follow my I didn't want you to follow in my footsteps. I didn't want use to be like me, you know? So, it gave me I gave him the inclination that I'm just as bad. You know what I'm saying? I mean, because I represent that type of life for real. You know, you know, I I really don't want the use to I want to give them a message, but you know what I I want to give them a message that, you know, thug life, gangsterism, and going back and forth to jail and reputations and gangs life is not is not the way. And it saddened me to to be able to be living that type of lifestyle that I was living. No, I don't want I didn't want them to to be in my footsteps because it's pain. It's pain. It's pain. So, I was changing. I was actually changing also. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I wanted to change. I wanted to show the youth. I wanted to make a message out there. He also did too. So I reflected, you know what I mean, on my lifestyle, you know, and I told him that, you know, I'm just like you. You know what I'm saying? I mean, so the messages were were both of us were are actually, you know, had the same type of inspiration, you know what I mean, about youth and people following our footsteps. And he had a bigger inspiration in saying because he was popular, he was a celebrity, you know, he was influential and um he knew how powerful that he can get in reaching out to these youths. So if he can give le a message of not being in living the th life, you know what I mean? you know, not being a Tupac, you know, you know, he felt bad that he had the use were actually, you know, I mean, believing that thug life is the way to live, you know? So it really made him want to give back to these youth the real message of not being a thug life, not being gangster, not being tough. You know what I'm saying? So, so in all of your years of of going back and forth to prison, how much time has you have you actually served in the penitentiary? And name some of the prisons that you had served time in other than Riker's Island when you met Tupac. Well, I I did a about 23 or 24 years all together. Um, I've been to prisons like Sing Sing, Commtock, um, Elmyra, Caki, Green Haven, Orburn, [Music] Sullivan, Down State. I mean, any max jail you can. I I I think it wasn't a max I hadn't been in. I was considered high classification. I would considered CMC. CMC is central monitored, right? Meaning I have to be monitored. I was I was a threat to any population, any jail that I was transferred to cuz I it was it was it was always a it was always big incidents with me. I you know I think set off riots and I had I was you know I g I was in influence I can influence people to really set it off you know I gave that type of you know demeanor that type of outlook um yeah I've been to I wouldn't they wouldn't send me to any mediums any minimums I was barred from any I was I was a scape risk you know you know I actually escaped out of prison before and that just that just made my reputation that much higher, you know? So, I was considered a danger, you know what I mean? To anybody I came in contact with, especially being gang affiliated, too. So CMC status is like I only can go to maximum security jails. You mentioned that you and Tupac sometimes convince female guards to show affection, meaning do sexual things. Can you tell us more about that dynamic and how would that take place? Yeah, the correctional officers, the female staff, they actually did consent with me and Tupac as having a sexual favor, whether to be on a visit or in the visiting room. And we had female correctional officers that actually had sex with in this manner. And I witnessed Tupac, you know, while I looked out for him, you know, while he had sex with um I'll say a female staff. And that alone was something that was never shared, right? Or no one knew about in the Rockus Island with him. So So what was that moment like? Like like was did she take him out of the the the unit and they would they had like a place they would normally do this? How how would that how would that take place? Or Yeah. Yes. Or was just one of the female guards that like Tupac? No, it was it was it was it was they had a system going on with female correctional officers that was unbelievable. They had set they had it set up where that they would take the inmate to a certain area to perform these sexual acts. And this alone was something that would it was powerful on their end because they actually conducted this with their own type of setup, you know, for the inmates, you know. So this happened quite a few times with with me per se, you know, and Tupac had also had itself involved with this type of sexual, you know, enhancement, this this exchange with female correction officers at Riker's Island. So now, yes. So, was was was there was it like a certain status of an inmate like somebody like Tupac being a celebrity or was it like like you know would it be like drug dealers who had money who could or was it just Well, it Yeah, both you know both. I mean, Tupac's fame and celebrity status alone would get him a sexual favor from a correctional officer in a heartbeat. You know, um, drugs did play a part with some people, inmates that had, you know, that type of clout to to exchange sexual favors with the female staff. Yeah. So both, you know, and Tupac alone, I'm saying, you know, just being around Tupac, you know, it's going to get he's going to get a person to female staff to to want to have sex with him, you know, off the off, you know, you know, off the top of the head. You know what I'm saying? On demand. It's like not even something that you have to brainstorm about, you know. So you Tupac get So you basically saying even in jail he was that charismatic that women were attracted even the female gods when they see him they were they were attracted to him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not only were they attracted to him, you know what I'm saying? You know, um it would give them something to something to to hold of of of of value, I guess. You know, yo, man, I actually, man, you know what I'm saying? Like telling their friends, you know what I'm saying? I mean, you ain't had no sex. Yes, I did. So, yeah, it was something that they can exploit and something that they can brag about. Yeah, they got bragging rights now. You know, would anybody believe it? Of course. You know, he was in there with her. Why wouldn't you believe it? You know, you said that you had Tupac's back while he was at Rockers Island and that you were always ready for anything, that violence was your profession at the time. What exactly did you mean by that? What I meant by that is that I lived that life for real. I was had a violent nature. I had a ill temper. Um I didn't give a about nothing. Um I had his back because I can have his back. I had that type of stature. putting in work, being the person who I was, it actually made a difference. And I was ready for anything. Tupac would display that he was ready for anything. I ain't saying he was soft, you know what I mean? He was no punk, you know? It's just that being tough and knowing how to fight, knowing how to really not project the image but be the image. That's who I was. So it made a big difference in me being there to have his back cuz I can truly say that I wouldn't let nobody do nothing to nobody cuz I had the power, I had the structure, I had the experience, you know, to be able to hold him down. I don't think a lot of people understand what you mean when you say that. Um because you know sometimes uh physical force has to be shown and and you know basically a person showing you that they ain't playing. Um, could you give an example of what you mean by, you know, uh, violence basically was your profession at the time, you know, in dealing with prison, whether it was in Singh or any other prison that you had been to prior to meeting up Tupac, that could give you the insight on what you needed to do and how you were to be respected. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I I was well experienced in violence. Like I said, I lived that life. I've been to various battles. I've been to various been in various riots. Um, I actually built up my reputation of being real with doing damage, not playing no games with nobody. And this alone made me the person who I came out to be versus a person that talks about it through a person that thinks about it or tries to be like something else. A lot of people wanted to be like me, but they didn't know have the experience. They they haven't been in the field. They haven't been in the battles. They haven't been around the violence. They haven't they haven't fought uh uh uh correctional officers. They haven't went up against the prison authorities like I have, you know. So, that was the difference. And when I say I had his back, right? and that nothing would get in my way of of creating, you know, my persona versus his persona. I can truly say that I was very much needed in his life to see the difference between real thug life, real gangsterism. I wouldn't say I was a gangster, but I ain't take no [ __ ] And that's one thing that you have to I had to I had not I didn't project the image I was the image you know so this brought our relationship up to the point where is that he respected me he now he you know I demanded my respect from all the time that I did with a lot of people you know what I mean I mean a lot of people in prison who you would probably never See, again, people with 50, 100 years that got nothing to lose. You know, I was that person that would let them know I ain't got nothing to lose. And if you want a beef, you want a problem, I'm coming bring it to you. You know what I mean? I'm just not even going to talk about it. I'm not going to tell my boy, "Yo, man, I'mma do something to And I mean, I'm just going to do it. See, this is the way that you had to do it if you're going to live that life. You know, you don't talk about it, you know. Um, just do it. You know, you the repercussions is real um severe because now um you got to go to the box, which is solitary confinement. You might have I might have a stabbing or a cutting under my belt. I might have hurt somebody. I might have had a fight with the CO. I might have knocked him out. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? Because I'm a very good fighter, you know. Um I'm not bragging, you know? I'm not trying to get anybody to think that, you know what I'm saying? Um you know, I'm better than them. It's just the life I lived. You know what I mean? It's the life that I grew up with. It's something that, you know, was a part of me. You know, it's something that I couldn't front. I couldn't front, you know, not being, you know what I mean? I couldn't I couldn't be unreal, you know, and um it showed. It showed, you know, and like I said, I was on my own, you know. So, you know, you know, I was the person of interest. The rapper Fat Joe once said that he had spoke to Puerto Ricans about protecting Tupac. You mentioned having an agreement with the guards to ensure Tupac's safety. Did Tupac ever express fear or acknowledge any kind of conversation with anybody outside of Riker's Island that was involved with protecting him? No. No. In fact, no. I don't know where Fat Joe, you know, um, came up with that. I don't know. I've been the only one that can really, you know, tell the story or tell the truth of what, you know, his fears were. And, you know, um, and, um, him having any involvement with anybody, you know what I'm saying? any other inmate, you know what I'm saying? Having any type of of beef, you know what I'm saying? Or having anybody else talk to, you know, the Latins about, you know, not to do nothing to I I I don't know where that came from. And I don't know how, you know what I'm saying? Um, that was expressed or why that was expressed. You know what I mean? Not not saying Fat Joe's a liar, you know? I don't even know Fat Joe, but you know, I'm in there. I'm inside. You know, there's a lot of truth that which is is is is can't it's a lot of truth that's hidden. You know, a lie is like saying one bright day in the middle of the night. You know, and my saying is like if a person says something about someone just to say it to get any type of recognition orh respect and I don't you know what I mean? I mean I the truth the truth is going to reveal itself. I just give my point of view, my memoirs with Tupac and what truly happened and him Fat Joe having any type of say so on Tupac's uhh uh safety and making sure no nothing happens to him and talking to the Latins and about you know I I I don't know where that came from. I don't know see how it could have could have came about. is there's nothing there that can you uh be any truth to that. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? Now, I don't know. You know, that's the reason. Well, that's the reason why I asked you cuz like I said once again, um you had a relationship, you know, with the gods and you were entrusted to basically, you know, look after Tupac, um being a suicide aid and all of those other things. I knew you had a front row seat to what that was. That was the reason why I posed that question to you. And so you would know what Tupac's uh safety situation was like uh cuz you were right there. And if he needed anything, I think he probably like in coming out of his cell and doing all the other things that you helped facilitate. Um I think that you would need Yes. Yeah. I was I was designated to be his jail house bodyguard. Um, nothing came past me. Nothing. Everything came through me. Right. Tupac's safety was my position. I don't have to lie. I don't have to make up a story. I'm going to tell you my firsthand experience of being with Tupac in jail. Um, the guards entrusted me. They knew that I had the ability to um make sure his safety, you know what I'm saying, was in my hands. There's no one else, no one else was entrusted with that type of um power. Um, I wasn't contracted to be his bodyguard, street bodyguard. I was I was entrusted by word of mouth with the correction officers because that's all we got. They can't do a contract with me in jail. I don't get I can't get paid no type of money that to be his bodyguard with contract. It was it was a verbal agreement, you know, with the guards at that time. And no one nobody can can say that any anything otherwise about Tupac in jail but me. So, like I said, there's no validity. There's no way that Tupac needed any type of protection from someone outside. You know what I'm saying? about the Latin inside of G and say so to do nothing to him because he didn't have any he didn't have any beef with no Latins and no Latins was you know there was no there was no incident there was no there there was there was nothing there that someone could actually say that they with Tupac's uh it's because of them that Tupac uh was uh was wasn't assaulted or wasn't you know you know it it just doesn't make sense. There was a legendary rap battle at Wright's Island involving Tupac where the prize was two packs of Newports. How did that battle come together and who won? Listen, at that time everyone thought that they can they can well the people that you know did rap a little bit and the inmates and they felt that they can battle Tupac. So, you know, I created um this little pot for a couple of packs that whoever whoever can beat Tupac, you know what I'm saying? Or can out battle him, they'll win two packs. So it was agreed upon. So it was a couple of inmates who would shoot their little their little lyrics at Tupac and I just waited cuz I already knew what I'm saying and they couldn't [ __ ] with Tupac lyrically. You know what I mean? But hey man, you know, it was something to remember, you know, of that scene when they really tried, you know what I'm saying, to battle Tupac. When Tupac hadn't responded with his lyrics, he blew him out the water. He blew him out the water so it was like, it was like, come on, man. You know what I mean? Like, you know, take notes, you know, do your homework. Go back to your lab and cuz you can't [ __ ] with pop, you know? So Pac won the battle, you know, he got his little couple packs of cigarettes and he was happy and, you know, they want another shot at it or whatever, but you know, it it was it was over before it started. So that was like a highlight, you know, with Tupac, you know, and with the people that, you know, were battling him. Yeah, that that that that really was a scene to remember. Wow. I can remember like it was yesterday. They tried. They tried, you know, but Tupac won with flying colors, you know. So, you said the gods in in the book, you said the gods were even there, you know. They came in, some of the gods from the other pods came in to check out the the actual battle in itself. Yeah. Yeah. See, they already knew. See, the gods, you know, like they're going to have each other's back, most of them. So they already um was was a was was was a part of Tupac being there and being affiliated with the guards that already had orchestrated Tupac to be able to, you know, be let loose a little bit out of, you know, out of cell and, you know, yeah, they they were there and they came and they witnessed, you know, it It was like it was like our own our own um our own uh uh show but it was a show that only certain people that do remember that was a part of and yeah cos would come in and we had female we had male cos and you know they sat there and you know and they witnessed this little bat fall you know so it was like I created it. I set it up like that and it was fun. It was something to do. It kept Tupac, you know what I'm saying, a little bit, you know, occupied and so he wouldn't be able to feel like he was, you know, you know, he couldn't be around inmates and, you know, I mean, like he was that, you know, so so uh less important, you know, he didn't want to be um Tupac, you know what I mean? and he wanted to be, you know, he wanted to be a person just like everybody else that was in the dorm. So that celebrity fame [ __ ] Tupac really didn't want it if you ask me. You know what I mean? You know, he he didn't really uh he didn't really look forward it like some people would with the celebrity status that he had, you know, he just wanted to be a like a normal person, you know, and this is what I seen as him being so um so real. So, he was real in that aspect, you know. He poop some real with him and it came down to his to his human person side instead of celebrity fame side and that was that was special. That was something that a person could not witness but who was there and like I said you know I became his friend. I became his friend, his buddy, you know, not his fan. And that's when our relationship progressed. You and Tupac once got into a scuffle and Tupac got the best of you. Do you think he was testing you, trying to see if you was really about that life? Yeah. Yeah. I I I I honest I honestly think he was uh it started off as we were working out doing push-ups you know cuz you know you know I used to work out a lot and he was like my workout partner so as I was doing push-ups and everything like that and you know he well I thought it was playfully he playfully you know grabbed me what I'm saying like really like you know putting a little bit of strength into it And I noticed that wait a minute, he's he's trying me, man. Tupac is really trying me. You know what I mean? I mean, and I had to I had to notice I noticed that he was kind of strong. Tupac was strong, you know. And I said, "Wait a minute, man. Let me let me snap a palace before he really he really think he can [ __ ] me up or he really can do something to me." And you know what I mean? like this will be something that, you know, he can talk about. But, you know, I I I it was a little it was it was it was a little it was a little it was a little tough, you know, I'm saying, for me at the time, you know what I'm saying? It wasn't it wasn't easy. I'm saying, you know what I mean? And I had to say, well, you know, I had to give him that type of um, you know, that type of um, lane, you know, being that he did put a little put a little work into trying to be, you know, know scuffle with me, you know, and, you know, I got to say honestly, you know what I mean? You know, he he g he gave it his all, I mean, and I I felt it a little bit, you know what I'm saying? But, you know, I didn't want to really come out like he was a enemy and really do something to him. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? But yeah, you know, I respected him for that. But he was trying me. He He was trying me. When he jumped on my back and he jumped on me and I said, "Oh shit." You know, and uh he was serious. He was serious. He he really wanted he really wanted to show me that he was tough, too. You know what I mean? You know, so so he put you So he put you in the book he say he put you in a choke hole. Yeah. Yeah. He had me by the back and put me in the choke hold and say and he put the he had a grip, you know, and I wasn't ready for it because you know you know I'm I'm mentoring him, you know what I mean? I'm I'm I'm giving him jewels, you know. I'm I'm letting him know about certain and how to present itself. I'm saying, you know, I mean how it's supposed to be presented. he's supposed to present himself when, you know, in jail when he goes when he goes farther into the penile system. But yeah, you know, I mean, I started turning a little red, you know, and um I said, "Wow, man. This mother really choke try to choke me. This this [ __ ] tried to choke me. This little mother, but you know, yeah, he he really was trying me, you know, and I I could I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't get that out of him. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? I was a little tight, you know what I'm saying? because but I ain't want to break out into my you know what I mean and cuz I know the way I am you know what I mean like I don't let nobody touch me ain't nobody gets that close to me you know what I'm saying he had got that close to me whereas that he felt that you know he he want to prove himself you know what I'm saying that he was that so yeah it was something to So, so Tupac Tupac was was was he could handle his business. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't I mean I never looked at him as a a a a punk or soft anything like that. You know what I'm saying? But I knew who I was and um I slept on him. I slept on him, you know, and um he had a grip on my neck. I said, "This little motherucker choke me out. If I let this little mother choke me out, man, listen. I will be embarrassed like a mother, you know, you know. But um yeah, he he he tried me that day, you know what I mean? I mean, I gave never especially damn Tupac. You a tough little n man. You lose strong, you know? It made him feel good. Made him feel like, you know what I mean? He really, man, was trying somebody who had status and a reputation. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? Like, you know, but I don't blame him. I don't I don't blame him. You know what I'm saying? like he you know you know you know he wanted to he we he want he wanted to show me that you know man we I'm tough too if I'm down with you know what I'm saying I mean like you know you got to see it you know what I'm saying you know I mean he didn't want me to think that he didn't have any balls you know I mean or any heart you know that's what it really was you know tell me about the story about the inmate DC after that incident you became more of a protector to Tupac What exactly went down involving the card game? Tupac thought he was cheating and the altercation that pursued after that. What exactly happened? Well, DC was so emotionally distraught, right, that not only did he lose that that poker game, you know, which we, you know, we we put up packs of cigarettes, we gamble with, and he lost his money, and they thought Pac was cheating, right? He jumped across the table and was scuffling with him. You know what I mean? And when he started scuffling a little bit, it had to be broken up, you know, and this loan res um was his way of not only showing basically showing me that all right, you know, you with Tupac more than you with me now. You know what I'm saying? I'mma [ __ ] this Tupac up. I'm saying so um you know cuz I don't give a what I'm saying about about you know his celebrity status or his fame and know I'm saying I mean cuz you know you know I'm tough you know I'm tough you know what I mean and you mentioned me and you and now you going to with Tupac over me you know what I mean? So now he felt um I gave up on him. You know what I mean? That it's just it I'm with Tupac now. Tupac's down with me and you know I'm going to go out for Tupac than I would him which basically it wasn't even like that. I didn't you know I haven't seen it I didn't see it coming. I didn't think that he was going to be that you know that um you know jealous or zillious of him. I didn't think you know you know but then I seen it. I said okay I see what it is. I see exactly what it is. You know, you know, and I cuz up until that up until that point, the dude DC was your comrade, like your little underling, little brother or whatever. And when Tupac came on the unit, you and Tupac kind of developed the relationship and he was jealous of that. Yeah. Yeah. So that inclined him to, you know, to to show me that, you know, he'll Tupac up, you know what I'm saying? and not give a you know what I'm saying about his his his status and of being a celebrity. You know what I'm saying? To to to show me that yo bro you know you know you and Tupac man I'm just going to go all out. I'm saying what I mean because I'm I'm hurt. You know what I'm saying? I mean like you know you know and I understood it. I understood his I understood his um because like I said, you get emotionally attracted to somebody in prison, which a lot of people get, you know, you know, they had you you got nothing but your emotions. You know what I'm saying? Your feelings, you know what I'm saying? They come out. They come out, you know. You know? Yeah. So, you know, I had to talk to him. I had to talk to DC, man. I like, you know, you know, so I understood that that's where the assault, the rumor of him being assaulted came out, you know. So that was basically um where you know it starts with the French fry, French fry turns into it was a potato, you know what I'm saying? And then it was the whole course meal, you know what I mean? And then it was like, you know, the cat got killed, the raw. It goes into different stories, you know what I'm saying? I mean, different colors, but that's where the rumor of Tupac being assaulted came from. You also witnessed, and you talked about in the book, uh, the intense encounter Tupac and a female god had seemed to hate Tupac. Can you break down what led to the confrontation and the rumor that followed, which permeated throughout the hip-hop community? with this female god. Sure. Sure. It was um I remember the day that the female guard was doing her shift. I didn't even know that she had had some type of resentment for Tupac. You know what I'm saying? because of his, you know, his um his sexual charge. Um she came in with him one day, turning his lights on and off, you know, harassing him, calling him different epithets and names and he calling her [ __ ] and and names and stop with me. You know what I'm saying? And you know, so it was going back and forth with them. So when I heard this, I'm like, what the is going on here? You know what I'm saying? know the is I said yo um officer why you Tupac like that mind your business Richardson got I said yeah but you [ __ ] said get away from the gate before I write you up I said but you [ __ ] with him you're turning his life light on and off you you know you you you with him because of his sexual charge you know not knowing if you know if it's true or not. I said you wrong. She said, "Get away right now before you get in trouble." Right? He said, "Don't worry about it, player. I got this. You your fake fingernails. Fake hair." She fake hair. I guess she had fake hair. Fake fingernails. You know what I'm saying? But, you know, he gave her the business, you know. And he told me, "Joe, go ahead, man. Don't get yourself in trouble." I'm saying, you know, I got this. another guard heard her, you know, actually um harassing Tupac like that. You know, I guess this guard, you know, went back and told their superiors, I don't know who, maybe a captain or something like that, you know, that two she's ready for Tupac, you know what I mean? Um, you know, and after that little incident, you know what I'm saying? And the next day, the next day with her shift and her ne I have never seen her again. She was she was actually I don't know if she was fired. She was suspended. You know what I'm saying? I mean, the administration, you know what I'm saying? Took her off her post, you know what I mean? But she I never seen her again. So, she actually, you know what I'm saying? Probably jeopardized, you know, I mean, either her position in that unit around Tupac, you know what I'm saying? You know, I mean, suspended or whatever the case may be. I don't know. But I never seen her again. So she actually got in trouble for that or whatever. And um things were right back to the way they was. Never seen her again. Never had any any more problems with um this officer, but she definitely was going hard. You know what I'm saying? And this is the resentment that she felt as a female. You know what I'm saying? And his being that his sexual charge was with a female. So she automatically jumped on the female side like you know what I mean like then and his his his and his portrayal of that and him saying is on TV and you know now see the image he got he got the image that you know he the woman woman all woman of [ __ ] know all woman's you know what I mean like see and so now it wasn't really like that but you said that that at the uh when she left the shift that She looked back at Tupac and she said something before she walked off and then there was a rumor that came about. Yeah. And then you kind of knew where that rumor came from. Yeah. Elaborate on it. Well, she she she she voiced that, you know, his sexual, you know what I mean? Um his sexual charge, you know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? his sexual charge was very inappropriate and they like you know you're you're so and so you know I mean you know you're you know and it made her go hard on him about his sexual charge which caused a rumor. this rumor came about, you know what I'm saying, that um he got sexually assaulted or whatever the case may be in jail, you know, and um or molested and something like to that nature. This is her way of getting back and telling her, you know, her cohorts or her her people that, you know, Tupac and Sh saying that's why he got sexually um, you know, assaulted in jail. So, the rumor came back at the hip hop nation that you heard about Tupac being sexually assaulted in jail, you know what I mean? So, the rumor went around and went around, you know what I mean? So, when I heard it, I'm like, "Wait a minute." I says, "I remember that day. I remember that day when she went off and she said, you know what I mean? You know, that he got that he's a sexually uh uh whatever the case may be, you know, I mean, he's in here for a sex, you know, for a sex crime or whatever the case may be." And, you know, that's why he got sexually molested or sexually assaulted. And so, she went with a rumor and spread it, you know, and that's where that rumor came from. And I can bear witness that's that I was there when she stated that, you know, and you know, in that rumor to this day, people actuallying believe this just like, you know, I mean, just like they, you know, they believe that that he sexually, you know, um, assaulted um, a female while he was in there. you know, well, why the case of her him being charged with that, you know, and uh it was her way of getting back at him just I mean, you know, and it was it it was up. It was [ __ ] up that she did that, you know, and you see so you so you basic so you basically saying that based on the the the Tupac's what he was actually in prison for, she basically was mad and was uh hateful towards him based on that. and then kind of started the rumor based on the disrespect and the back and forth. Yeah. Uh her and Tupac. Yeah. Yeah. She got removed out the unit. She was probably tight behind that. She couldn't go there to with him no more and turn his lights on and off. You know what I'm saying? And um you know you know she she she yeah she started the rumor. Yeah. You recalled in the book a dangerous moment involving the Latin Kings and MS-13 that could have put Tupac in serious danger. What happened that day in the dorm when the war broke out? Because Tupac was actually out of his cell when he wasn't supposed to be and they had to get him back to his cell, but they were about to go to war. Yeah. Talk about that. Yeah. It was the Latin Kings against the MS-13s. They started fighting each other. So, it was like a little semi- riot in there and and it could it Tupac was actually out that day. And it could have definitely been very dangerous for Tupac because he not wasn't he wasn't supposed to be out of cell. So when they when they ran up in there to break these fights up, you know, gang fights, it it would have jeopardized it it almost jeopardized Tupac's, you know, safety and almost jeopardized uh the correctional officers jobs to how he was actually why he was actually at his cell. you know, when they find out, you know what I mean, who he was sitting there. So, yeah, it was it was it was a it was a it was the gang fight that, you know, almost put Tupac in a dangerous situation. And if he didn't get back to his cell, you saying before, you know, them captains came on, it was going to be hell over high water for them correctional officers and Tupac safety. So, so what did you do to to to kind of Did you do anything to try to uh facilitate? Did you try to get in between back it up? Did you What did you do? Yeah, I actually gotten in the middle of Tupac and you know the gangs to stop them for even involving Tupac in any of their gang affiliation. So it it it it was something that I had to do. I had to um you know back them up a little bit. You know what I'm saying? To not jeopardize Tupac being out of his cell and Tupac being attacked. Tupac was behind bars when the album Me Against the World dropped and when the Dear Mama video was released uh worldwide. What was it like to watch him see the video for the first time as you were right next to him when he watched the video? It was an emotional. It was very emotional. He displayed an emotion that I never seen in Tupac. When he seen that video for the first time, Dear Mama, he actually wept, right? I was sitting there with him. We were sitting on watching it for the first time. First time I seen it and the first time he seen it. When it came on, they put that video in for him. Tupac was amazed and he was his feelings about his mother was displayed through tears. I seen him shed weep. That's the incident that really, you know, made me see that he had really had a love for his mother that people wouldn't even understand, you know, being that she went through her trials and tribulations with her addictions. And they were really uh not close because of that, you know, which he was very very very against her, you know, you know, being affiliated with drugs. He didn't he didn't like that. He didn't want he he he he kind of hated his mother for that. You know what I'm saying? You know, and that's what his dispute was with his mother. However, when he seen that video and after that video was finished, right, I said, "Yo, Pac," I said, "Damn, man. I feel that, man." Like, damn. And I looked at him. He says, "Yeah, man." I says, and a tear came down his face and I says, "Wow, man." I said, "Oh, Tupac is crying." Yo, man, listen. a tear that people do not see in Tupac, you know, and it was amazing. It was it was it was it it ma it made me damn near um it shed a tear. So, that was a moment that to be cherished, you know, I mean, between me and him and between that video that we seen that day, Tupac got a lot of privileges in jail. Um, and you had expressed in the book that uh he was the only one in Riker's Island to actually have a TV in his cell. Elaborate on that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Sony, I don't know how they did it with the administration, but they came and they had some type of contract with administration or whatever or um an agreement and they put a TV. I mean, they drilled a TV in his cell. They they they bolted it in there just for Tupac, right? And it was amazing because no one no inmate in Rikers Island whether he was a celebrity, you know, cuz they had a few celebrities that were in there before Tupac, you know what I mean? No inmate ever had a TV placed in the cell. No one. So his privileges that the privilege that they gave him to having that TV, it was just shocking, you know, for them to even be involved or having the juice or having authority, you know what I mean, to come in there and do that. It was out of my knowledge of how they, you know, orchestrated that. But yes, he did have a TV placed in his cell which gave him the ability to watch his videos and you know and watch that video with Dear Mama. So I guess they wanted some type of affiliation with him when he comes out promote them or whatever have you. That's how I looked at it. Yeah. So yeah, getting back to that, he he showed an emotion that I had never seen in Tupac. You said that after Jada Pinket visited Tupac at Riker's Island, you said that he had cut off all of his visits and threatened violence against the gods. What changed after Jada Pinket came and seen Tupac that day? Well, they actually harassed her. They were harassing her and They actually promoted her to not visit him. You know what I'm saying? They were given the inclination that they she shouldn't she shouldn't be visiting a thug like him. You're actress. You have a certain type of reputation and it makes your reputation, you know what I mean, really look bad messing with a thug. That's what they were gaining at. So they accused her of smuggling in marijuana to him. When he came back from the visit, his cell was searched, trashed, and this would gave him like what the you know, and what the they looking for myself. It came back to him that they was looking for drugs in a cell. Um, it cut off his visitation rights with Jada Pinkette because they accused her of trying to smuggle him in drugs, which wasn't true. She didn't really want to come back no more after they harassed her like that and threatened that, you know, you know, she would uh um she shouldn't she wouldn't be able to visit Tupac again. Tupac re rebuked that in a fashion that he threatened the the guards up. He threatened to with violence, you know, I mean the guards to why did they cut off his visits? They cut off his visits because they didn't want Jada Pinkette to be with Tupac or visiting Tupac. They had some type of resentment, point blank, whatever the case may be. So, she said she wasn't going to come back no more if they're going to harass her like that. You know, she don't want to be accused of, you know, bring smuggling him some drugs. Yeah. So Tupac, he threatened with violence. He threatened with violence. He wanted to fight. You know what I'm saying? They, you know, you know, it was a commotion. Um, so him and him and Jada Pinket's visitation rights were eliminated for that reason alone, which was um, it was up. wased up the way they did her, you know, just to deter her from visiting a thug like Tupac. Why are you doing that? Why are you visiting him? You know, they made her feel like, you know, you know, like she she she's she's a she's a a piece of um dirt or garbage. You know what I'm saying? For visiting someone like him, it's going to ruin your reputation. So, yeah, they they they cut the visiting rights. They didn't have no visiting rights for them anymore and she refused to come back anyway. She did not want to she did not want to be harassed like that again or be accused of smuggling drugs. In fact, uh it was one time you explained that uh Tupac was actually talking to Jada Pinket on the phone and you had asked because you were such a big fan of hers uh from seeing her uh uh act before you asked Tupac could you talk to her and he actually let you speak to Jada on the phone. Yeah. Talk about that. Yeah. I was I was thrilled to talk to Jada Pinkette. You know what I'm saying? Because in in my book at that time, Jada Jada was a sight to to to see. I loved her her her movies. She was a very good actress. She was beautiful. She stood as beautiful, you know, and um yeah, he let me talk to her. So I said, "Hey, Jada, you know, I've seen your movies. You know, kind of like like you know, like I like the way, you know, you're one of my favorite actresses." [ __ ] She says um and she had got some of the pictures. Tupac had sent us some of the pictures that the correction officers had, you know, took and um she said, "Oh, I see the picture of you." You know, he said, "Look out for Tupac while you're in there." And she started, you know, I says, "Yeah, don't worry about it." He said, "You know what? I mean, I got him. I'm holding him down." Tupac. And so I'm really really trying to talk to I'm really trying to talk to Jay. Yo, Jay. Yeah. Tupac. All right. That's enough. That's enough. He grabbed the phone. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? And um yeah, that was that was a epic moment to talk to Jada Pinkette that day, you know? It really it really made my day cuz I was just had seen her movie and I told her I just seen one of your movies. Then to talk to her on the phone, you know, you know, it really really made my day. But Tupac wasn't having it. He's like, "Yo, man, give me the phone back, man." I'm like, "Yo, turn it." He snatched the phone, you know. So, I said, "That was it. That was my little two minutes to talk of to talk to um a celebrity such as her, you know, at that time." Yeah. Jada Pinket in her latest book that she had put out talked about a time uh in where Tupac had proposed to her uh to get married while he was in jail. A lot of people doubted it. A lot of people thought she was lying. She was capping or whatever you want to call it. Uh but you in fact were on the dorm near the phone when Tupac had got finished talking to Jada Pinket in reference to that. Take us through the day when Tupac got off the phone. What he said to the whole tier as he made the announcement. Yeah, Tupac. Um he he he when he got he was on the phone with her he he announced he says I got an announcement to make. You know I want everybody to hear this. I'm looking like you know what's going on. He says this is the first time you're going to hear this right? You guys are privileged to hear this. I'm I'm getting married to Jada Pinkette. You know, I said, "Oh, you know what I mean?" Like, like, you know, like he proposed to her in some way. But, you know, it was like, "What? You getting ready to get married to Jada?" You know, he says, "The first time you heard it, you know what I'm saying? And you were privileged. All y'all around me were privileged to hear that me and Jada Picket was going to get married." So, that was like the secret marriage proposal, you know, that was, you know, that was that that was that was put in place. And I was like, "Wow." You know what I'm saying? Damn, I wish I can be at that wedding. But, you know, yeah. So, that's the first time that I've heard of that he was going to get married to Jada Pinkette and the other inmates around me. So, yeah, that announcement that announcement was was was very very very deep at that time because who wouldn't get married to Jada Pette? You know what I mean? you know, she was a sight to see and she was she was in her she was she was she was in her she was in her prime doing movies and actresses and it it was amazing. It was amazing just to hear that come out of Tupac's mouth. But yeah, we were privileged to hear that Tupac, you know what I mean? That he was going to get married to her. So basically, you can confirm that what Jada had said in her book wasn't a lie. Yeah. from Tupac saying it in prison. Basically, it was it's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, because like like I said, a lot of people didn't believe that. And like I said, when I when I read the book, like I said, people got to pick up this book. When I read the book, I was like, "Oh, wow. That's something that Jada said that never was said." And the way you described it in the book, I was like, "Okay, that was conf that was confirmation of information." Yeah. So, uh, Tupac received tons of fan mail. At one point, it became too much, so he handed it over to you. How did that make you feel? And what did you do with the letters that Tupac handed you? What did you do with the letters that he handed you from fans that he couldn't handle? Yeah. Um, yeah. He he gave me almost like a a a garbage bag full of fan mail and he didn't he didn't really want to put it. You know what I'm saying? He's like, "Man, I I can't go through all this, man." He says, "Yo, you know what? You know, he said, "You can go through it." Know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? And you can you can um you know, there's going to be females in there that's you know, going to send pictures and you know, I mean, you can get you know, you know, you um you know, your own fan mail. But I I'm not dealing with it, man. Here's all the mail. You can you do what you want with it. I said, "Oh, man. Good luck." Right. So, I goes and goes through the mail and there's pictures in there. There's pictures of girls and they're writing him and telling them that they would like to, you know, um they send their picture and they would like to be, you know, their his friend and this and that. And, you know, so I actually got some in the mail, seen some pictures. I said, "Wow." And I, you know, I was like, "Wow, it's a lot of girls writing in." I called one of them, a couple of them, and you know, trying to get me to date as Tupac. It was like, "Yo, it was like, um, I said, I'm calling you." They leave their phone. I'm calling you to let you know that, um, you know, I'm like, you know, I I'm like I'm Tupac's agent. You know what I'm saying? like I can get I can get you in touch with him, you know, but you got to stay in touch with me to get in touch with him. Okay, not a problem, you know. They were all for it, you know. And that's how I started going through his the mail that he gave me and getting, you know, females to start writing me and calling me and, you know, betraying that I was, you know, like I was I can I can let you to I can let you talk to Tupac. However, you know, you got to go through me. So, they was all gaming and with it. And um you know, I actually had got quite a few friends out of that, you know, and yeah, it was it was it was with with uh with with Tupac's permission, of course. Yes. Yes. Tupac's permission, you know, he gave me the permission to do what I want, you know, write the girls, and they really thought that they would have a chance to speak with Tupac or, you know, be his friend. So, you know, they started sending money and all kinds of things. Not to use them. It's just that it was it was boring. It was something it was something to do. And u with Tupac's brand behind it, you know, it would make me more popular, you know. So, yeah, it was it was it was it was fan mail. It was tons of it, you know. He just didn't have the time, man. Tupac didn't want to he didn't want to deal with it. He didn't want to deal with you know the male you know. So So was all of it positive? Like was all of it in regards to female? Was all of the male that he was receiving positive? Yeah. Yeah. It was positive. It in the aspect that it would actually know give me something to do, you know, and it it it would be beneficial to me because now I have the ability to pose and um get them to, you know, assume that they're going to talk to Tupac some and he's going to be their friend, you know what I mean? somewhere in the future, you know, and they were, you know, a lot of them were with it, you know. Right. So, so but because in the book you explained that there was hate mail. Yeah. He had some he had he had he had he had male that was that's I disregarded that. Most of them was like, you know, oh man, you know, it it it was people fans [Music] who it was it was fans who were really not as fans. They were they were people that were that were posing as haters for him being having sexual charge that he had. And um you know there it was threats in there and you know epax and you know it was most of that mail I just had to discard. I had to discard it. I couldn't you know I didn't give a about it. Know what I'm saying? I mean the hate mail I was on the the positive mail you know but that was definitely in there. You know, it was it was it was threats. I'm going state, you know, I mean, like or discouraged with Pac and yeah, I went through a lot of mail, you know, I never was without mail with him. Now, my my mail started piling up. Now, I was getting a lot of the mail and saying for the fan mail as being a uh like an introductory like a like a uh to Tupac promising that they one day talk to him. Yeah, it was amazing. But you said in the book, and this is somewhat exclusive because I've never heard this before, you said that Tupac told you about him having dinner with Jimmy Henchman and Haitian Jack. in where Jimmy Henchman tried to get Tupac to sign a contract. What did Tupac tell you about that night? Yeah, he told me that Jimmy Hman tried to get him to sign a contract to be down with his record label. Tupac declined. He didn't want to be a part of it. you know, Haitian Jack tried to persuade him cuz, you know, they were affiliated, you know, they were friends with he declined again, you know, not being wanting to be a part of Jimmy Hench's record label. So, this brought about some type of animosity, I'm saying, between them, which probably resulted up, which, you know, it resulted up in the Quad Studio shooting. So, so basically you saying you think that this information that Tupac gave you about that dinner and him basically declining to sign with Jimmy Henchman's uh label and Haitian Dra trying to persuade Tupac at that particular time. You think that that has something to do with Tupac being shot at Quad that night? Yeah. Yeah, most definitely. The animosity that Jimmy Hendrick was had for Tupac was that oh you don't want to be down with my label and you know what I'm saying you know you know um all right you know what I mean like you know I guess he he he was he was he was in that he was like in the force at that time you know um he had a lot of juice and he can make things happen let's say let's put it that Okay. Now, the you know, it it it led up to um Tupac believing that this is the reason why the Quad Studio shooting was set up, you know, by Haitian I mean um yeah, Haitian Jack and um and Jimmy Henson. So, I basically was just hearing what Tupac was stating to me and I can kind of believe that that's what really happened because right after that, not soon after that, he gets set up at Qua Studio. You know what I mean? And it was affiliated with that meeting. that meeting had led up to it because Jimmy Henchman was nothing to with. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? He was nothing to play with, you know. You know, I consider him like another Sugge Knights, you know. Um, but he did have he was definitely was strong, powerful, and, you know, he make things happen. So when he got set up at Quad Studio, he knew in his heart that Jimmy Henchman had something to do with it. There was, you know, it was something there that, you know, a lot of people don't know about. And I can tell you from the perspective what he stated to me that he was he was trying to they was trying to kill him. You know, it wasn't just a robbery, you know, it was more than a robbery, you know. So, putting two and two together, Tupac knew the reason behind that shooting. And so, and so a lot of people have heard a story about Tupac not wanting to sign with Jimmy Henchman and trying to get him signed. It was a management deal, but Tupac told you basically was a record deal. Um, what else did Tupac say? How did he explain to you that it happened? Like I said, because this is soon after he's incarcerated at Riker's Island before he goes to Clinton. How did he explain to you that hap that it happened and what happened involved that involving that? He told me that Haitian Haitian Haitian Haitian Jack and Jimmy Henchman, right? They had something to do with the Quad Studio shooting that that when he got shot. I firmly can believe that. I'm saying what I mean because it no later soon happened after he refused to have, you know, to sign a contract with him. Did he mention any other names? Yeah, he he mentioned King Tut. Um he mentioned Puff Daddy, Biggie. These are some of the names that came up, you know. And I firmly can believe that they had something to do with it because they were trying to kill him. He told me point out it wasn't just a robbery. It wasn't that they just intended to take his they wanted him dead. And that's the power that Jimmy Henchman had. You hold Queen Latifah in high regard for her shout out to Tupac during her receiving the Sammy Davis Jr. Award uh where she declared Tupac's innocence at the end of her speech. What did that moment mean to you watching that while you were incarcerated with Tupac at Riker's Island? It was an epic moment to to hear Queen Latifah make a shout out to Tupac through the TV and I'm in the company of Tupac at the present time. It made me admire her and respect her even more that she would just, you know, proclaim his innocence, believe in him at such a crucial time when Tupac when Tupac's incarceration because like I said, uh I didn't know that Queen Latifah was that close to Tupac and to give him that type of recognition, you know, and being in the company of him, you know, it it was it it made me respect her so much more. It made me see that she really, you know, believed in him and she was on his team and, you know, you know, she knew that this was all a a madeup story about his his sexual um charge that he was incarcerated for. Yeah, you do know that uh you might not have known at that particular time being incarcerated. Like I said, I don't know. Uh but that he did do uh Juice with Queen Latifah. Queen Latifah was also in Juice. So I I think that might have been the connection. You might not have been aware that at that particular time, but um had have you ever seen the movie? Yeah, I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen the movie Juice and I remember that movie. Very fond of that movie. And I didn't really know that at that time I didn't Yeah, it was it I didn't really know. You talked about how Tupac's fame gave him perks and favor at Riker's Island, but you also talked about how some of that uh fame and popularity made him a target. Can you share some examples of both? Yeah, it made him a target because of the jealousy of people seeing that he get all the perks inside of jail. The the guards were giving him leeway and letting him out of cell. Um him going on visits with the famous actress Jada Pinkette. um shallots he's getting through from Queen Latifah, through the television, his relationship with Tret. Um you can vividly see that people made it made him a target. It made him a target and versus him, you know, having love for people who just loved him unconditionally for him being Tupac, you know. So basically, yeah, um it works both ways, you know. He was he was getting a lot of attention. Um privileges. He had he had me on his team, you know. You know, so you got the guys like DC who just like, you know, you know, just just have animosity towards him. So he became a target. He became a target in that aspect alone, you know. So I can I can I can I can relate to that in of what I seen and who he talked to and who was close to him. Sister Soldier, you know, uh she she she she sending him books, she reaching out to him, you know. Yeah. So you you just mentioned you just mentioned uh T. So, uh, and you also mentioned that TH was real close to Tupac and he was one of the, uh, persons that held Tupac down at that particular time, uh, while he was at Riker's Island. What else can you elaborate on about that? Well, I witnessed Tupac talking to T daily. So, when I used to ask Tupac, who you talking to on the phone? Because he had his own private phone. He said T, you know, and so it it showed me that he had a relationship with Tre that was far beyond that I knew and how close he was to Tre and who had love for him and was who was holding him down from the outside, you know, cuz it was selected people that he had as friends, you know, and these the celebrities were Tre Soldier Queen Latifah, you know, and you know, this love that he had from them, it showed me that they weren't haters. They weren't they weren't a target for him. I mean, there were there were people who really loved him, you know, respected him and believed in him. And I didn't know that until I witnessed, you know, these celebrities, you know, being a part of his life while he was incarcerated. There was a time uh when uh Tupac was talking on the phone and you asked Tupac who was he talking to and he told you Trech and you proceeded to go on about what you wanted to know about the conversation. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah. Um, he told me that, you know, him and Tre were working on a project together and that he was, you know, they was they were very, very close on talking to each other every day. And T and him were actually going to put something together. And that part alone showed me how close him and T were that I didn't know at the time because he was talking to T mostly every day. And that was his main main man, you know, in that aspect. So, you know, I've seen the relationship, you know, between him and Stretchers being unique because he didn't have too many people, you know, that really really was in his corner unless they wanted something from him, you know, be attached to his celebriness, his fame, his fortune, you know, cuz you got gold diggers out there, you got the haters, you know what I'm saying? You know, yeah, but him and Tres were close because they were working on a project together. That's just what um Yeah. And you you said in the book that you you asked Tupac, could you talk to Tre? What did he tell you? Yeah. Yeah. He told me um he said, you know, when I asked him, "Let me talk to Tres." It's like I mean, he he gave me he gave me the um inclination that, you know, that he wouldn't you know, he's not going to, you know, he can't share that personal relationship with him. I can't. was, you know, it's this is man like like you know it's it's what they both doing and I you know really it's I have no I have no connection to that at all I guess you know. So basically told you don't. Yeah, but you know I was trying to put it in a nice way, you know, but yeah, you know, wouldn't let me talk to Tre. Now I understand. I wanted to talk to him cuz I, you know, I like Dre. You know, you Donald being gang affiliated gave you a lot of influence at Riker's Island. As the word spread that Tupac had arrived at Riker's Island, things quickly began to escalate. Talk about your growing influence and the buzz surrounding Tupac arriving at Riker's Island. What was the atmosphere like? Wow. It was like my recognition, right, was not more on display than it was Pac. It was about Pac right then. You know what I'm saying? you know, with to them, you know, going around to the dorms, you know, um Pac having me go and pick him up weed from this dude and you know, it was like, wow. You know what I'm saying? Tupac's in the building, you know, and everybody, the buzz was going around like, yo, man, you know, the papers are coming out, newspaper articles, you know what I'm saying? you know, about Tupac being sentenced and, you know, everybody's like, "Yeah, man. I want to see him." And everybody, you know, everybody everybody is like, you know, I can't get I want to get a glimpse of Tupac. Everybody was trying to get over to the dorm where I'm at, you know, to to to to see him. him having me go around from different dorms to see certain people that you know it was it was amazing because I really didn't really care too much about you know then when he first came in you know he had a little jet you know little little walk about him reminded me of George Jefferson you know so you know you know people started um you know trying to sneak over to the dorm and see him and you know coming through me you know what I mean you know D man you know what I mean like you know so you know my reputation my you know my recognition I'm saying you know it it stood up a little bit more and got more you know validity to you know me being around him and um you know they had people that just was like you know damn man you know um Tupac's you know is is is is a fan. I mean a a favorite of mine. I didn't see it, you know, but it felt good. It felt good at what you know that have this celebrity in my presence, you know, you know, versus, you know, me not really like being his fan. So, I kind of wanted to I was a little curious. I wanted to, you know, I did want to um see, you know, what he's about. You know, this is my own personal thoughts, you know, so it took a little time for us to get close, but when it did, I think it was well worth it. I think it was well worth it because I got to meet someone that a lot of people can't even get in contact with, you know, couldn't get in contact with, couldn't be around, you know. So, it made me feel good. It made me feel good. I felt good about him saying, you know, the point of of of of being in his company. You know, you mentioned that Tupac was more shocked and hurt by the betrayal of the men who tried to rob and kill him, especially because they were tied to Haitian Jack and that they also worked security for Puffy and Biggie, then he was actually about being shot. Why do you think that the betrayal cut so deep for him and how did it shape his outlook from that point on? Yeah, because these were some people that he was close to. Um, these are some people that he never thought that, you know, would betray him, you know, at all. and being involved in being uh friendship with them. It just he wasn't too much considered about the shooting him getting shot you know it was that damn man you know like you know people flipped on me you know you know it betrayed me and gave me the the insight that you know they really didn't give a about me you know know I didn't you know and they had some part of being you know involved in this shooting It hurt him. It hurt him. It hurt him deeply. It hurt him deeply. Cuz now, you know, he wanted revenge. He want He wanted some get back, you know. He couldn't wait, you know, to to show the these people that he's, you know, he really he he really he really knows he knows he knows what's going on. He know what happened. He know who, you know, set this up. He know who put this in place. You know what I mean? You know, and he was hurt deeply. And I I can't I can't even I can't even um fathom how he the feelings that he was going through at that time cuz I would feel the same way. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? You know, say that I got my friends, I got you, I got this one, you know what I mean? That and y'all flip on me and betray me and have something to do with his shooting, you know, and know about it, you know. I'm like, wow. you know, you know, so that hurt him more than the shooting itself of him getting shot five times, you know, and I can and I and I can understand why. Did you ever did you ever try to talk Tupac off of the cliff like as far as being um wanting revenge and wanting to retaliate against whoever he thought was was responsible for it? Did you ever try to talk any sense into Yeah. Yeah. I told him I said, "Yo, Pac, man." You know what I'm saying? Because Biggie was his main the main person he felt he was closest to that he he he wouldn't he he he wouldn't do that to him, you know, like or he wouldn't know anything about it. You know what I'm saying? I mean, and I told him I said, "Pot, see, you believe in the media hype. You saying Biggie, you know what I'm saying? uh has some knowledge of this quatch studio shooting, right? And that you know you you feel he feels betrayed by Biggie alone that you know because they were people that were from Brooklyn, right? who are actually I'm saying the ones who you know had partaken in this robbery um shooting attempt you know. Yeah. Um so Biggie I said Biggie man I told him I don't think Biggie would do that to you. I know he had knowledge. I know. I know. I know. He was with it because how when I walk through the door, right? Right. Mother didn't even say what's up to me. What's up, Pac? Nothing. Right. And everybody knows me. That's what he said. He said everybody knows me. So, you know this guy with fatigues on over here, right? Looking at a paper, this one over here, you know, he said, "What the [ __ ] is going on?" So, he knew he knew that something was going on. You know what I'm saying? And he was a paranoid mother. Tupac man was I mean if he felt that you had something to do with betraying him, setting him up. Listen, you his enemy for life. You know this big west coast, East Coast thing was sprung out of that alone of thinking that big, you know what I'm saying? You know, Puff Daddy knew that he was coming there and all of a sudden people are not saying anything to him when he walks through the lobby. Don't people hear nothing. He felt it. He sensed it. And ain't no way in the world Tupac is ever going to believe anything different than what he felt that Biggie should have protected him. He should have informed him. He should have, if he's his friend, he knew that these were Brooklyn Stickup Kids, right? He knew that Biggie had influence and ain't nothing moving. Brooklyn is not going to Big is not going to know have anything not to do with anybody from Brooklyn. That's was his whole mindset, you know. You know, and you know, I tried to talk to him. I said, you know, pot, you know, looking into it too much. You know, it's, you know, I don't, you know, I hardly believe Biggie, you know, would have any knowledge of this and not inform you. Biggy, I don't think Biggie, he I said, I I I don't believe Biggie knew that these were stickup kids. These were Brooklyn. He didn't know. And so so so who do you think who do you think after understanding the story that Tupac told you, who do you think ultimately had something to do with it? And what for for what reason? Um Jimmy Henchman, you know, for the main fact that he didn't sign that contract that day, you know, you know, and and Haitian Jack saying, you know, knew something about it, too, you know. So this is this is the story that's not know I mean like you know has to be understood you know what I mean like it gets it gets deeper than than biggie you know oh puff daddy hey I I kind of I kind of believe maybe he me personally that you know you know he had something to do with it but that's another that's another that's something neither here nor there but he knew in his heart you know I mean that the underlying people that had something to do with this quad studio shooting, right, was Jimmy Henchman. Point blank. It's it's it's nobody else at that time that had the power and the ability and influence to do that. You know what I'm saying? And that was a major um uh denial on Tupac's behalf of not being, you know, not being signed a contract, not being down with his uh record label. Yeah, that's it's plain to see. Right now, Sean PDD Combmes is on trial for various uh charges. Do you think in any way, shape, or form that what he's dealing with right now is based on the karma of what happened to Tupac that night at Quad and also the situation in Las Vegas by the guy saying that Puffy put a million dollars on Tupac and Shu Knight's head? Do you think that that's any way dealing with the karma that's come to Puffy at this particular time? Most definitely. Most definitely. Um, Puff Daddy, Puff Daddy is is is actually uh uh showing Woody Reap, right? He is in his position from my perspective, you know what I mean? Because of the foul underlying he's been doing for so long, right? And his his stance with being Tupac's enemy, right? Yes. Yes. It's It's karma. It's karma at its most unexpected virtue. Karma because now look at look at the way that things are being situated now. You know what I'm saying? with with with with um with with with with Puff, you know, so much garbage and so much trash and so much foul is being thrown at him. It puts him in a position where is that Yeah. You know, you you reap what you sow, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you got it coming to you. You know what I mean? Like you weren't the you weren't the most gentous and and um fairest person. You know, you were doing some [ __ ] You were doing some [ __ ] and that you know, you were crossing so many people and putting so many people in situations and and your your name is on these tags and with people getting killed and like that, you know, I mean, so yeah, it's karma at its best, you know. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, Donald Richardson, the author of the book Behind the Walls with Tupac Shakur. You can get the book on Amazon. I suggest you reading it. A very very insightful book. Uh like I said once again, thank you uh for coming on the dialogue. We appreciate you for your time. Thank you. Thank you for having me and I appreciate you know what I mean you you know um you know actually you know what I'm saying getting my story out to the public to let them know the true story you know I'm saying behind how Tupac you know I'm saying presented itself saying while he was behind the walls while he was in jail and I'm the only person can give the validity and truth saying to what really transpired holding this this this this information for so many years. So, you have to buy the book and see more of what's going on in detail. Thank you. You're welcome.