Jessica Miller: So when you set a boundary, like the woman that didn't want her 3-year-old having ice cream, please don't give ice cream to her toddler. It's giving her tummy ache. The emotional, immature person, they don't hear this very reasonable request. They hear, "I am bad. You're a terrible grandma. I don't wanna see you anymore." They hear something completely different, which then makes them feel rejected, and so they're gonna fight you. That's where they're going to give you that sassy snarky comment coming outta left field. They're gonna [inaudible]. They might just storm out or they might just stonewall you and shut down. And then they move right into defense mode. And this defense system is like top notch and all this stuff is happening in just milliseconds. It's happening so fast. And so the defense system is blame shifting. Like you're too sensitive, you're controlling, and then it's story twisting where they make you this big, bad villain and they're this victim. So like, you attacked me, she screamed at me. It's like, no, I just asked you really kindly to feed the cookies instead of the ice cream. And you know, or they, do martyrdom where it's like, after everything I've done for you. Emma: Hello everyone. Today we're gonna be talking about how to set boundaries with emotionally immature people. These are people who when you try to set a boundary with them, they respond by attacking you, blaming you, blowing up, crying, taking things personally, and I'm bringing on a special guest. It's an expert on boundaries. Her name's Jess Miller. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist and she's the creator of Mind Your Boundaries. And she's gonna teach us her clear system on how to work with setting boundaries with emotionally immature people. It's awesome. And so I'm really excited to be talking about this, so let's jump in. Alright, Jess, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so happy to have you on the show again. Jessica Miller: Oh, it's an honor. I had so much fun last time. Thanks for having me. Emma: Yeah. So today we are going to be talking about setting boundaries with emotionally immature people. Jessica Miller: Mm-hmm. Yes. Emma: Can you tell us, let's just start off like what do they have in common? Who are these people? What do you notice about them? Jessica Miller: Well, as we were getting in, so, I'm like Instagram, we get questions submitted by people just having problems in family dynamics. And very quickly, we were starting to see a pattern where someone would just set a very reasonable boundary, like just give us a heads up before you come over. Don't feed our toddler lactose. She's lactose intolerant. Just very simple things. And then they were beginning these big dramatic reactions and I'm like, what the heck? Emma: Yeah. Jessica Miller: So not only did we see a pattern of like a reasonable limit and then they were taking it as a personal attack, we started to see that these people had very similar characteristics. Emma: Mm. Jessica Miller: Like they were all about me. So like a husband would say, "Um, we're gonna go to my wife's for Christmas, even though we've been to your house, you know, for the last 10 years. We're just gonna kind of even it out a little bit." Oh my gosh, what about me? Like, why would you do this to me? They're also very allergic to accountability. So no matter how you try to explain. Like, this is how you hurt me. It's just like a hot potato. They just bat it back at you really, really quickly. And then the last thing is they truly feel injured either by reacting really big or being very, very hypersensitive. They feel injured and take your boundary like a personal attack. Emma: Mm-hmm. So they'll, they'll be like, what? You don't love me or you don't care about me or I'm not important to you. Or they'll bounce it right back at you and be like, you are the most selfish person. Or you're so, you're so whatever. Yeah. Jessica Miller: Yes. Like you're too controlling, you're too sensitive. Yeah. Emma: Shows a lot of like really low personal insight, like they're not really self-aware and able to think about multiple parts of the situation at once. Jessica Miller: So I, for the longest time, because I've been in practice for uh a handful of years, like a dozen years, and when people, like clients would talk about family members responding in very immature ways or even just people in my own life when they would respond in immature ways, I always resorted back to like, it seems like you're, you're acting like a teenager. Like, this is ridiculous. But then I started digging into the research from Dr. Lindsay Gibson, the author of Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. Emma: Yeah. Jessica Miller: And it explains it way better where she's like, no, we're not dealing with teenagers. We're dealing with people that are so stunted. It's like they have the same skillset as a toddler. And that's where it really started clicking for me 'cause I'm like, they have no insight. They have no ability to actually put themselves in your shoes and imagine what they're doing to you. It is literally like you're telling your toddler no or trying to take their little toy away and they just don't understand. Emma: Yeah. I have a two-and-a-half-year-old right now and the other day she was grabbing her sister's book and like tearing it and her sister was like, "No! No! It's a library book. Like don't tear it!" And I came over and like tried to intervene and the toddler like bit my five-year-old, like, because she's just like, I don't get it. Like I have no reason. And then she's like throwing herself on the floor and like crying 'cause she just, she wanted what she wanted and she has Jessica Miller: Yes. Emma: Like very, very, very little awareness of what other people around her want or need or feel. Jessica Miller: Right, and that's where it makes so much sense because their reactions are just like your two-and-a-half-year-old. They're so impulsive and dramatic and they just come outta left field. You're just like, what is going on? Like, stop fighting your sister. Emma: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So how do, how do adults end up being so emotionally immature? What fuels that? Jessica Miller: Well, there's lots of theories so far. What they're saying is inconsistent attachment as they're growing up. So like just what's going on in their environment, genetics, but then also trauma plays a big role in it as well. Emma: Yeah, and I would assume people who grow up in a home where you don't talk about emotions, emotions are generally punished. They just simply never learn any skills around working with feelings and having them and Jessica Miller: Yeah Emma: Thinking about them carefully, you know? Jessica Miller: Right, right. Yeah. But I think it's so important 'cause there is so many conversations around cutting people off and estrangement and when I'm just asking this question, I, in no means, am I trying to excuse the harmful behavior that emotionally immature people do. I simply believe it's so important that we understand their limitations so that we can adjust our expectations because we really do suffer more by assuming they have these emotional tools and they're choosing not to use 'em. Emma: Right? Yeah. Jessica Miller: Yeah. I just believe that we suffer way more by just like assuming that they're choosing not to like outta malice or stubbornness and we're just like, you know, they're just being so selfish and I think if we adjust it and we actually are like, no, maybe they can't, like, maybe they truly have arrested development that really helps everybody, like in the system. Emma: Yeah. Yep. I had a family member who I did, I assumed that every time she was giving me advice or correcting me or telling me to just be more positive, I thought she just really disliked me and was very critical and judgmental to me. Which, I mean, there may be a, there maybe was a part of that, but as I tried to explain to her this idea of toxic positivity, I tried to explain to her this idea of, oh, like if, like when I express this, I'm just seeking to like kind of share an emotion for a minute. And she was like, basically like, well, why would you do that? Like, just being positive is the only way to do things. And I was like, oh, like, like you literally, like this concept was literally like whoosh. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Just couldn't, couldn't connect the dots. Emma: Yeah. She just literally could not connect the dots. So my assumption was she's being so mean 'cause she knows she should be like a little bit empathetic and instead she's just telling me I should shut up and get over it. And she never used those terms, but that's what she was implying and I was assuming like she thinks I'm a bad person. And reality is she only has one skill and that's her skill. It's just grit your teeth to get through it. And so when I understood she just doesn't have the context to understand this idea of, uh, empathy. It's not that she's not empathetic, but it's like this idea of like if someone expresses a negative emotion, like I'm feeling sad today. If you say like, oh, that sounds hard. What's going on? That's like a little bit, um, more dynamic of a skill than saying, well, you should just look for the bright side. Goodbye. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Like stop feeling that way. Emma: Stop feeling that way. Way. Yeah. Yeah. Stop feeling that way. That literally something she would say. So, Jessica Miller: Yeah and I think what you're saying is she may have lacked that skill of mentalizing, like being aware of her own internal world and her own internal experience, but also being able to dip into, man, if that was happening to me, I would feel sad too. And then relate to you on an emotional level. And I think that's like what we're getting at. I don't think they have that skill at all. At all. Emma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. So, okay. First, first thing we do is we, we gain some understanding and we adjust our expectations, right? Maybe not that they're being malicious, they're not necessarily trying to be awful or manipulative. Jessica Miller: Mm-hmm. Emma: But they perhaps just don't have the capacity right now. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Emma: To manage their big feelings and like have an empathetic point of view. Jessica Miller: Yes. Yes. Emma: Okay. So then what do we do? How does adjusting expectations help us? Does that mean we just, Jessica Miller: Well, especially when you're trying to, 'cause I think where a lot of people I find that are reaching out for help or just clients or even our own personal experience, we get stuck waiting for them to take accountability. Waiting for them to, and really what you're waiting for is like emotional growth and that's not gonna happen. So you're really allowing at that moment when you're waiting for somebody that is emotionally immature, you are saying, I am essentially allowing that three-year-old that lives inside their emotional brain to control my emotional healing. And no one's gonna do that. You would never allow your two-and-a-half-year-old to be in charge of your emotional internal world, would you? Emma: No, I mean not, I mean it does happen sometimes, but you shouldn't logically rationally you wouldn't choose that. Yeah. Jessica Miller: Yeah. You wouldn't say like, you're in charge of when I get to be happy again. Emma: Right. Jessica Miller: You're in charge of letting me know when I get to like be at peace again. So once you would acknowledge that, then you set appropriate boundaries. So if somebody makes you feel a certain way and you know, okay, I'm not gonna get that acknowledgement. They're never going to fully be able to put themselves in my shoes and say they're sorry, and take accountability. Then you have to figure out, okay, I have to figure out how to heal on my own, and then when I go forward with this person, now I have different boundaries to protect to make sure she doesn't do that to me again. So it's really just acknowledging their limitations as maybe it's a, not an unwillingness, but maybe it's a, I can't change. And then adjusting your expectations and then setting boundaries if it's safe to do so. Emma: Yeah. Okay. Jessica Miller: It makes me think about our son before he was diagnosed with ADHD. We had rules for both of our kids. They're very similar in age but our son would always get into trouble, like the same thing. And my husband at night, sometimes he would just be like, I really worry that eventually, like he's gonna be 24 and he is gonna come back to us and say, "Hey, Dad, you know, like all the times I got in trouble when I was little, I truly couldn't help it." And that's what always it reminds me of that, where it's like once we realized, oh, he can't help it, and we changed our expectations, adjusted the rules, it just made our whole house run smoother. We didn't have this resentment, this frustration with him. It was different, and he obviously suffered a lot less. And I believe that you could use that in this situation as well, just working with the emotionally immature people in our life. Emma: Hmm, that's so interesting. Do you think that this is partly a generational issue like our parents and our in-laws, they literally never had conversations around emotions. Jessica Miller: Right. Emma: And now, like millennials and on, we're all like trying therapy or listening to therapy podcasts or reading books like, oh, like children of emotionally immature parents. Right? So like we all have this language and this mindset around emotional growth. And we expect that other people would be doing that too. And the other generation is like, huh? Like I don't even have a framework to talk about that. Jessica Miller: Right. Right. And that's what I'm saying is I think that we're assuming we're looking at a 60-year-old and they're gonna have the same emotional tools that we have. They just have to like build them up. And I am just asking the question, what if they truly don't have access to those tools? And is causing a lot more suffering than necessary. I'm not saying like going no contact or estrangement isn't necessary in certain cases. Like, we'll get to that in the discussion. Like, 'cause even once you understand their limitations, you change your expectations and then you set healthy boundaries, which you control and you enforce. You still have to decide like, is this relationship sustainable or not? Because some people are so unhealthy that it is not sustainable. Emma: Mm-hmm. And I think we cannot imagine that if we're being super critical and rigid with other people, that we are being the righteous ones and they're being the evil ones. We also have to develop a sense of compassion towards what may be different about them that we don't like. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Yeah. Emma: And acceptance. Jessica Miller: Yes. Acceptance. Emma: Okay. So what's it like for an EIP, an emotionally immature person when you set a boundary with them? Like why, why do they react so big? Jessica Miller: Yeah, so I am like, I'm a freak about understanding people and it's so crazy when you hear these stories about like, okay, so I set a boundary and then they did this. I don't really even have to read their reaction. I swear the pattern is the same. So if anyone right now listening has an emotionally immature person in their life, they are going to be like, yep and yep, they do that, and then they do that. It's so predictable almost every single time. So when you set a boundary. Like, please call before you come over. You know? Or like the woman that didn't want her 3-year-old having ice cream, please don't give ice cream to her toddler. It's giving her tummy ache, anything like that. The emotionally immature person, they don't hear this very reasonable request. They hear, I am bad. You're a terrible grandma. I don't wanna see you anymore. They hear something completely different, which then makes them feel rejected. And so it's like, if you imagine your boundary is striking a match and you're just holding it, once they start to hear the negativity, like you're not enough or you're bad and they start to feel rejected, it's like their brain just starts on fire and now you have this surge of cortisol and adrenaline making it feel very uncomfortable for them, like you need to take action and get away from this feeling right away. And then that moves them into like this next phase of fight, fight, or freeze. They really do feel like a life threat. Is being detected and they have to take some sort of action. And so if you can just imagine you are in a room and it's on fire and the smoke is filling your lungs, it's burning your eyes, like it's just so uncomfortable. That's how rejection feels like to them. And so they're gonna fight you. That's where they're going to give you that sassy snarky comment coming outta left field. They're going to flee. Yeah. Very defensive. They're gonna flee. They might just storm out or they might just stonewall you and shut down. Emma: Yeah. Jessica Miller: And then, but that doesn't last for long. And then they move right into defense mode. And this defense system is like topnotch and all this stuff is happening in just milliseconds. It's happening so fast. And so the defense system is blame shifting, like you're too sensitive, you're controlling, and then it's story twisting where they make you this big bad villain and they're this victim. So like you attacked me. She screamed at me. It's like, no, I just asked you really kindly to feed the cookies instead of the ice cream. And you know, or they do martyrdom where it's like, after everything I've done for you. So then, so after that, they finally escape the fire. Like you just imagine they leave the house, they leave your presence, and the first thing they do is they're on the phone with family and friends Emma: Throwing you into the bus. Jessica Miller: They're telling them their version, their distorted version of events, which is like, I need help. And it's really not done, I don't believe this is done maliciously or consciously. I believe it's because they have such a fragile sense of self, they cannot self-soothe. You have to remember, two and a half, three years old, they need you to calm their little system down. So they're getting their little minions, if you're imagining Gru in Despicable Me, and they're telling them this distorted version of events. Well, your family and friends are like, how could you do this? So then they, even if Gru doesn't say, go do this, they wanna help. So then the minions disperse and go to you and they're like, how could you do that to mom? And you're just like, what? I didn't push her off my porch. What are you talking about? So and that's kind of the cycle every time. Emma: Mm-hmm. Jessica Miller: It's, it's a lot. Yeah. Emma: And it's easy to see it. It's easy to see it. Jessica Miller: It's so easy to see it. Emma: So it's really about this fear of rejection. Jessica Miller: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Their deepest fear is like, like, I'm not enough, like I'm not good enough. Like I'm just, I'm just not enough. And so then they, whenever they sense rejection, that is like everything starts on fire. And the only thing, you know, like when you're trying to communicate with them, in the midst of their brain being on fire and they just have the surge of adrenaline and cortisol, I just like to explain to people it's as if you are in a room on fire. And you're trying to get out and it's really getting warm. So it's getting closer to you. And again, the smoke is filling your lungs and your eyes and it's just terrible. And then somebody comes alongside you and says, "Hey, will you meditate with me for a second?" Like, you wouldn't be able to like, you're just like, what? I gotta get outta here. Emma: Yeah. Jessica Miller: And that's how they feel. So they don't actually hear you saying, this is how you hurt me. They're just, they're more consumed about the rejection feeling and getting away from you. Emma: Yeah. Hmm. So, um Jessica Miller: Isn't that crazy? Emma: It's crazy, but it makes sense. I mean, yeah. And that's like one of our deepest core fears is not being good enough and being rejected. So it just Jessica Miller: I know Emma: It like shuts down your ability to think. Right? Jessica Miller: It does. It does. And again. I am not trying to like, explain their experience to minimize their damage. Like their behaviors are very damaging to I'm trying to help us understand it. That's why I'm not trying to excuse it though. Like, I just wanna make sure, like that's clear for people. Emma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So, if we can understand them more clearly, then that opens up some options for how to handle this situation more effectively. Jessica Miller: Right. Yes. Yeah. So I have, for years I've always communicated with those in my life who are emotionally immature. I've communicated with them differently knowing that their deepest fear is that they're not good enough. And so I've always focused on two things when I bring a boundary request or I bring like something to them that I know that is not gonna be fun for them to hear. I focus on attachment, so like attachment theory, and I'm really trying to make them right off the get-go, I'm trying to help them feel very secure in the conversation, like, I'm not leaving you like you're very valued. So I'm really trying to root it in attachment. And then throughout like my script or throughout my talk, I'm really like reassuring them like, you're just fine. I'm trying to keep their system calm. And then I also focus on framing the boundary in a way like, this is how it would benefit you. Because you have to remember one of their biggest characteristics is it's all about me. Emma: Mm-hmm. Jessica Miller: And so if I can frame it like this is how it would benefit you, they are, I do get further where they're like, more opt to come and fall in line, which we know like it doesn't matter. Like a boundary, you have full control over either way. But as especially when you're parenting, it sure is nice when they can come alongside you and just like respect your parenting decisions. And so that has really helped me like those two things for sure. Emma: Fascinating. So, um, okay. So the two big things are making sure to reassure their attachment. Telling them, you're important to me. I care about you, I want you in our life. And I want this to be good. So here's why I'd like to set this boundary. And the second one, uh, what was it? I just forgot. My brain fell out. Oh, telling them what's in it for them. Telling them what's in it for them. Jessica Miller: Yeah Emma: Because they're kind of a toddler and they need to know like what's the dessert at the end? Sorry, I interrupted you. Jessica Miller: No, it's totally fine. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. It's the same thing with like when you want them to eat their broccoli, it's just like, oh my gosh, let's like get this broccoli done and then you get to pick chocolate or strawberry ice cream or like, oh my gosh, let's get bath time done so then we can get our cozies on. I can tickle, scratch your legs while we read our book. You know, it's just the same thing. It's the exact same thing. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to the older generation. I'm just saying that it works better for me when I do it that way. So I can't really just say like, do that. I try, I put it in a framework to try to then teach it. So I can teach you that now. So I just put it in an acronym, like the clear formula, and it just helps people be able to replicate whichever situation they're in, they can just plug in that into this formula and have their own script to communicate with the emotionally immature person in their life. Emma: Let's hear it. The clear formula. I love it. Jessica Miller: Okay, so with the clear formula, again, we're just basing it in attachment and how the boundary will benefit them. So C is, I start off right away communicating their value. Like this is why you're so important to me. L is the limit or the boundary and this, you wanna keep super short and concise 'cause you don't wanna overwhelm their system or like pop off those alarms. You just wanna like, Emma: Yeah. We have a tendency to over explain, over explain, over, explain. Jessica Miller: Yes. Emma: And that might be overwhelming for someone whose brain is on fire. Yeah. Jessica Miller: Right, right. And you're trying to, 'cause basically I'll explain the, the acronym, but then I'll tell you what I'm kind of doing. So I communicate their value. L is the limit or the boundary. E is, I'm explaining the benefit. Like this is how it's gonna benefit you, trying to get them to buy in. And at that point, that's when they're going to start to register a little bit of rejection or a little bit of like something. And that's when they usually give you that snarky comment like, oh, you're telling me like I'm trying to make my granddaughter sick on purpose by giving her ice cream or something. Just so I'm like left field comment. I have to make an appointment now to come see my son? And it's like, no, not at all. And then A is you provide assurance to them. Again, just rooting in attachment and R as you repeat the boundary. Done. So, what this helps me do when I go to communicate my limits with emotionally immature people in my life is it helps me focus just on my script, what I can control, which is just keeping calm throughout the whole thing and then minding my boundary afterwards. But what I used to do is I used to go into these conversations with the goal of, I just don't wanna make someone cry. Emma: Yeah. Jessica Miller: I just don't wanna make them upset. I don't want them to be mad at me. . And I had no control over that, so I would go in like super, super shaky. Plus you just know that big emotional dramatic reaction is gonna come your way. And framing it this way, for me, it really keeps me calm and focused and because I'm approaching them in a way that I truly believe helps keep them calmer, I get further in the conversation and sometimes I get all the way through without like popping off. Emma: Okay Jessica Miller: And so basically what you're trying to do, if you imagine your child and you're trying to give them medicine, like you're making them feel safe, everything's gonna be fine. It's just, you know, nothing's bad. So I'm making them feel very secure. And then you give them the medicine and right when they, that's the boundary. And right when they're just kind of registering like, oh my gosh, this might not be a good thing. Then right away I'm giving them like the sucker. So, now, everything's fine. This is how it's gonna benefit you. And then giving them reassurance again, repeating the boundary, and you're out. Emma: Yeah. Okay. Huh. Okay. Give us an example. It's a great formula. I love it. I have a couple questions, but I'd love to hear, uh, another example. Jessica Miller: Yeah. So I think the biggest thing that people are going to feel like is this is overwhelming. Like this is a lot of steps and I really want you to imagine like, you're mainly just saying a nice sentiment like, this is how much I value you in the beginning. Just quickly stating the boundary and then just wrapping it in a way that it benefits them. And then the rest is just reassurance and then repeating your boundaries. So it's really not a lot of work. So we had a couple reach out and they wanted to set a boundary with his mom, who is emotionally immature, no tech for their four-year-old's birthday gift. And it actually happened where she actually got him a phone, but I did a podcast episode. It's just insane. But I did a podcast episode on like, this is how I would've set this boundary or communicated it with her, had they reached out beforehand. And basically I would have the son go over and just be like, "Hey, Mom!" Like, I would start it off like, "I just love how you and Benny are so close." The 4-year-old. "I just love your guys' bond. It's. So special and you know, he just waits on that couch watching out the window when he knows you're coming over to play. It's just awesome. Oh, by the way, we're gonna do no tech gifts for his birthday party on Saturday. We just wanna make sure we just keep him like distraction free. That way when you come over, he's just focused on you and, and you guys can just play." That's when she's going to give a snarky response like. Oh, you think I'm gonna be replaced by a screen? Something like stupid, you know, just like, no, no, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying he's growing up so fast. We wanna just savor and kind of protect that bond you have with him. So again, no tech, no screens, just we're focusing on books and puzzles. We'll see you at 10 o'clock Saturday morning. Done. Now the mom's gonna react 'cause this mom used crying to control her son. So she gets really, really emotional. And then he backs down. Like that's their pattern. But in that moment, like, she would start crying. She would just be like, I can't believe, like, you know, you're either telling me how to do this or you're giving me restrictions. I feel, I mean, she was gonna throw a bunch of stuff at her son. In that moment, I instructed him like, you need to focus on like, this actually has nothing to do with the boundary I just set. This has nothing to do with not buying him a tablet. This has something to do with the fact this is everything to do with the fact that my mom can't process emotions. Like she can't process it. And how I, it helps me when I get an emotional reaction in the moment is I just imagine like I just picture their like younger 3-year-old inside their head controlling the gears. Like this actually isn't the 60-year-old I'm looking at. This is just the 3-year-old not being able to handle this. Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. I love it. That's powerful. That's really good too. And it takes courage to do, like, it's not necessarily easy, but it's better than like having your 4-year-old have its own, have, have his own iPhone. Jessica Miller: Yes, yes. Yeah. So in that scenario like that, she actually, like, he did communicate the boundary but it's a request, right? He just said, please, you know, no tech or whatever. And he thought he, you know, she understood. She came to the birthday party, she didn't get a tablet. She got him an iPhone. And so then I just instructed them like, even if you get a gift, I know I would've just had an aneurysm. I was like, what? But like, even if you get a gift like that though, as a parent that the beautiful thing about boundaries is like you are in control a hundred percent of the time. So I just said, yep, in that moment, I would've allowed my kid to play with it. And then when he goes to either be distracted with another toy or go down to nap time, that's when as a husband and wife we go and talk to the mom and just say, "Hey, like, wow, what a generous gift. We're not ready to introduce tech yet, so we're either gonna put it up until he is a little bit older or you can take it and keep it until he is a little bit older." So either way. Emma: Like like 21. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Right. So it's either way I'm in control the whole time. Emma: Yeah. No, that's a great example. It's a great example. And that's how you mind your boundary, right? 'cause it's not a boundary if you just ask and ask. You've gotta also be willing to take an action at the end. Jessica Miller: Yes. It has to be something you can enforce. Emma: Yeah. Something in your control. Jessica Miller: Yep. Emma: Yeah. Love it. Okay, so I love how your process involves lots and lots of inviting people to come along with you, like inviting people to stay connected, inviting people to like listen and be comforted and be like, reasonable. And what if they just simply aren't, like they just are gonna continue to make things really painful for you? Like, how do you know? Is there ever a time where it's okay to cut people off or go no contact? Jessica Miller: Absolutely. Yes, obviously my mission is to try to help people suffer less and to try to prevent estrangements if we can. But there is absolutely a time where you need to assess if this relationship is sustainable or not. And so for me. Because this is just so personal. Like there's no one person that can say, um, you should cut off your parents for if they do X, Y, and Z. Like it is a personal decision. Like everybody knows when they, they get to their breaking point. But for me personally, it would be like if my parents or in-law was abusive in any way to me, if I felt like their criticisms now moved into more like threats or if my mental health was deteriorating. Then I would just be like, this isn't sustainable for me. Emma: Yeah Jessica Miller: And I mean, I have an example just to kind of put it in perspective. Emma: Yeah. Jessica Miller: Like some people might even like the mother-in-law example, some people, the first example, this might be too much for someone, but for me, I would be able to handle this. Like if my mother-in-law consistently came over unannounced, like she just refused to respect, like giving me a heads up and I would mind my boundary every time. Like, oh, you know, thank you so much for coming over. Like, it's not a good time. Let's schedule something later this week. Let's say, she gives me a snarky comment, acts very injured, gets in the car, smears me to family. They call and say like, I can't believe you kicked her off her porch. I calmly correct them. That's not what happened. And that's it. I'm okay with that. Like, I'm, that's sustainable for me. What would not be sustainable if my mother-in-law came over? I told her it wasn't a good time. She like, blew up, started yelling at me, like calling me names, maybe even tried to force entry into my home. Made a big scene. The cops had to be called. And then these types of events are happening all over my life. Like I'm constantly under attack. I'm not living anymore. I'm always battling her. Like that's unsustainable. Emma: Yeah, for sure, for sure. So people, as they make these decisions, 'cause I think, I think there's a tendency for people to say, well, it hurts my mental health as in like, oh, it makes me feel stressed or anxious to interact with this person. And I can understand like, oh, if that's really impacting your mental health to the point where you're not functioning, it's really interrupting your ability to function in work or life or your relationships,, that's one thing. But it's like it is normal that relationships are gonna be sometimes uncomfortable. Like, and we can create some space for that without immediate being like, well, I just don't like you, so I I'm cutting you off. And I think there are consequences to that, like outcomes that people will mourn later on. I mean, you just have to weigh those. You have to weigh out, you know, benefits, pros, and cons in these situations. So, it's a good example. Okay. You wanna share your story? Jessica Miller: Yeah, so my husband and I, we actually went through an estrangement with his parents, and I just think it's important to understand that sometimes you may not realize like your parents or your in-laws limitations until that first time you say no, and you like, actually hold your ground. And for us, that didn't happen until our kids were like, eight and 10 years old And so it was a very jarring experience. It was very shocking. But like we had just some very difficult, like big difficulties with our son and behaviors that he was having towards his sister. And I think it was two years just trying different parenting strategies, consulting with experts, just trying to figure out like what was going on. A big incident happened and we made a very important parenting decision, and so we communicated our parenting decision that we felt was best for our son to both sides of our family. So my side was like, they actually cried for us. Like, oh, that would be so hard for you guys as parents, like, we're gonna support you 100%. And then we went to his side and we communicated what was going on and what our plan was, and they just were like, absolutely not. We're not in support of this. We don't have to listen to you. We're gonna do what we wanna do, and we 100%. And we had, it was a plan that we needed everybody to work with us. And so we're like, oh my gosh. Okay. And so my husband was so shocked that they were saying this. He was just like, oh my gosh, I am, I'm the dad. Emma: Yeah. Jessica Miller: And his dad was like, no. Like, this isn't happening. Emma: What? Jessica Miller: It was just crazy. Yeah, it was, we were just like, what's happening here? And we had always had struggles, you know, with them seeing us as parents. Like, we honestly did not, we felt like they were parenting us and our kids, but it was never anything like this apparent. So at that moment, this decision was so important to us that he's like, okay, we're gonna take a two-week break so that we can implement our plan and then we'll just talk to you in two weeks. Well, that turned into a two-year estrangement. Like, absolutely devastating. And throughout the two years we had tried to get together and talk and explain our side, explain how, like, he made, like they made Ryan feel and explain, you know, like how hurt we were and where we needed them to take accountability. And we'd even joke just with ourselves, like, it's like they're allergic to accountability, like, what's going on here? And finally, the last meeting it was before the second year, we would've missed Christmas as a family, so it was rounding the two-year mark, we met and that's when we realized, oh my gosh, like no matter how much time has passed, like they're still on day one. Like they hadn't progressed. Like, they had suffered an immense amount. Their physical appearance had changed. I mean, it was, this estrangement was so devastating to everybody, but you could see physically how much they had suffered. They hadn't changed. They hadn't, they couldn't see our perspective at all. They couldn't, like nothing had moved. Emma: Like if something like that happened to me, I would spend time asking the question, huh, is there something I've done that might contribute to this? I would ask people around me. Like,, what would you do in this situation? Do you have any advice for me? Can you help me see this more clearly? And they were like, we're completely offended. Like, this is your fault. You guys are bad people or something like that. Jessica Miller: Yeah. And in their defense, they truly believed they were doing what was best for our child. Emma: Sure, yeah, of course. Jessica Miller: Like they felt like their way was the only way, their way was the right way, and we were the bad guys. And so in this meeting, they still felt like I'm carrying the torch, like for my grandson and we're gonna do what's right. And it's like, holy buckets. And it was just the most bizarre thing to finally realize. Like I was looking at my husband, I'm like, he's never gonna get what he's looking for here, like, and he had aged like 10 years through this whole thing. It was the worst experience ever. Emma: Oh, I bet. Jessica Miller: And I'm like, we're all suffering so much. Like they're just wasting away. My husband's wasting and deteriorating. Our kids are just without their grandparents who had been very much involved in their lives. We're talking, they were involved in their lives three plus times a week. We would spend time with them. So this was a very big deal. And that's when I'm like, we're gonna have to figure out how to heal by ourselves. You're never gonna get the apology you deserve. You're never gonna get the accountability. We're gonna have to figure out how to do this alone. We're gonna have to change our expectations here now that we understand what's actually going on, we're gonna have to change our expectations and figure out like what boundaries we need to make ourselves feel safe and keep our peace and still move forward. And that's how we reunited is getting a different perspective of what was really going on. Emma: Yeah. That's a very mature stance to take, which is saying, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna be 100% responsible for my half of this situation. I'm just gonna do everything I can on my half of this to make this situation better. So is it better now? Jessica Miller: Yep. Yep. I mean it, I don't think it will ever be the same because on the parent side that when you estrange on the parent side, they always have to go through life now knowing that their child was willing or able, capable of doing that to them. And so they're just scared that that would ever happen again. And so I think like, they'll always go through life very scared that we could do that to them again. Emma: Yeah. Well, and the truth about relationships with adults is that they can always choose to leave. Like they can leave the relationship with you. And so you have to choose to build relationships built around inviting, not controlling, like pulling people in instead of demanding that they stay, you know? Jessica Miller: Yeah. Yeah. And now that we have like a clear understanding of what it is, and we actually, before all this happened, when we had the estrangement, we didn't know what a boundary was. So we would like, before we actually stood firm on this, no, our entire raising child rearing years, we had tried to set boundaries, but really we were just telling them what to change. Like we didn't know what a boundary was. We were just telling 'em like, stop doing this. And we were expecting them to change, but then when we reunited, we understood like anything that we set for a boundary is something we have to enforce and it's a completely different dynamic now. Emma: So can you set boundaries with them now? Jessica Miller: Oh yeah. Yeah, we, oh, yeah. We wouldn't have gone back into it without it. Yeah. So it was a ton of different, different boundaries and it's, it was very slow, just kind of trying to earn back some trust and, but yeah, it's, it's definitely a, a good relationship. Like I've, I've always had a really good relationship with my mother-in-law. Like, she's done a fabulous job being a mother-in-law and I'm gonna do so many things that she taught me, like once I become a mother-in-law. And so I see so many benefits to the relationship. We just now realize there's some limitations and we've accepted that, and then we adjust our expectations now. Emma: That's so great. Okay. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Emma: Any other last thoughts you wanna touch on before we wrap up. Jessica Miller: I don't think so. I think that's basically it. I mean, Emma: Yeah. That's awesome. Jessica Miller: I think I got it covered, like why we, like, why we're doing this and stuff and putting so much time into it is I'm truly just trying to help people suffer less. Because I feel like if we have a different understanding or if we even just ask the question after, like you hear all these experts say like, you know, they need to be willing to go to therapy. They need to be willing to make these changes and I think there has to be an extension on that sentence. Like either willing or like maybe they're not able and we need to accept that they're not able. Like they actually have, like I have this idea that maybe at some point we'll have actual more brain scans and we'll be able to see that because of trauma, 'cause we know trauma changes brain structure. Like maybe we'll actually be able to physically say this is why like, they stayed the same, like it wasn't a choice. Emma: Yeah, it makes sense. And I think there's a lot of other things that impact emotional processing, including like executive dysfunction, like ADHD, like working memory, like, and being highly emotional. Like a lot of things impact processing and maybe we'll be able to dial that in better in the future. That'd be really cool. Jessica Miller: It would be. It really would be. And I just hope that more, I just wanna have more conversations around maybe accepting. Even if I just think even if I was estranging from my mom and I'm very close with my mom, but if I was estranging from her because the relationship was unstable, and if I knew she couldn't change and it wasn't a choice, I would go on with more peace than like anger and resentment. Like my mom was choosing not to get better for me. Emma: Well, and what you're describing is so interesting because I think a lot of people go to individual therapy and they see a therapist who's been trained in individual modalities. So they'll see a psychiatrist or an LCSW or an LPC, a practitioner of counseling and all of them have been trained in basically a linear way of thinking of like, well, you do this and they do this, and if you can't like set a boundary and make them change, then you might as well give up. And I think a lot of people get this advice. And this is called like linear thinking, right? A causes B. Right? And so if you set a boundary and that person doesn't listen well, then you probably just can't do anything else. And you and I are both marriage and family therapists, and we understand these are feedback loops. A fuels B and B fuels A. And what we do influences like how the other person responds. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Emma: And what this does gives us a ton of power and a ton of clarity on if we are A in this situation, all we can do is change everything on our half. But when we do that, it often influences how the other person responds. And so doing things like, you know, being more compassionate, understanding of where the other person is coming from, that changes how we interact with them. Understanding that they have rejection fears, it changes how we interact with them. And it might invite change on their half, and even if it doesn't, we change on our half and it's okay. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I love the way you just put that out there. That's like, so I, it's so clear when you draw it out. My brain loves visuals. Emma: Yeah. I only think like with diagrams. Oh my gosh. But yeah, like I think, I think marriage and family therapists, people are trained to think systemically, are more likely to be more creative in their solutions when it comes to these relationships. So I think it's worth it to try lots of things on or half of a relationship and see what shifts in the whole, the whole system. Jessica Miller: I think so too. And just going back to like, 'cause I know some people, I don't ever want people to get in like the wrong idea that I'm saying estrangement isn't, like, that's just a personal choice. Like sometimes that's a permanent decision for people. For us, the suffering was, I mean, you, when you first cut off contact, you might get like some sort of immediate relief. Like, oh, this type of stress is gone. But now you have a different type of shadow or heaviness over you all the time. And yes, that's grief, but for us, it just wasn't sustainable to stay estranged. Like it was literally just eating my husband alive. Like it it wasn't okay for him, like he was suffering and it wasn't like their behaviors were to that extreme that it was, that that was necessary. It was just us understanding what actually was happening, like in terms of boundaries, and it was us having to grow and like make adjustments to then reunite. Emma: Mm-hmm. I love it. I love it. Jessica Miller: Yeah. Emma: Well, tell my audience where they can find you and tell 'em about your free guide. Jessica Miller: Oh yeah. So I made, so if you liked the idea of like what I'm talking about with the clear guide or the clear formula, I just put it in a free guide. It talks a little bit about emotionally immature people and just how it kind of impacts the couple's relationship. But then I also just walk you through for really, like, relatable scenarios so you can familiarize yourself with the framework. So you'll have that in the description. Emma: Yeah, link's in the description. Jessica Miller: And then I'm just on all platforms @mindyourboundaries. Emma: Awesome. Okay. Make sure to check her out. She always goes over the most fascinating examples. People send her their questions and she gives great ideas. So I love it. Thank you. Thank you, Jess, so much for being here. Really appreciate it. Have a great day. Jessica Miller: Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Emma: Hi there. If you found anything in this video helpful, I would really appreciate it if you could give it a thumbs up or share it with someone who could benefit from it today.