got Rosie Dufffield MP here independent former Labour MP of course for Canterbury Rosie very good morning to you Hi Mike Thanks very much for joining us It's been an interesting couple of days I imagine for you Um you you did note on your on your Twitter account I saw that sometimes you forget the cameras are on you when Kan was talking about you Um well they shouldn't be on me They should they should be on him So it's really unusual to sort of to see a cutaway to another MP And my bad I I completely forgot that you do forget that in your workplace whenever you're in the chamber the cameras are on them Yeah But I don't think it's a bad thing because you could see from your expression that you were not exactly impressed with what he had to say And to be honest to be honest not very many people were So I think your expression kind of said it all really because he was even for Star particularly robotic and and and ridiculous yesterday wasn't he Yeah I think I mean those are obviously just the latest lines and of course he was going to have to accept the judgment of the Supreme Court You know that's literally the law right Um so but I think it's just just the fact that he seems to have kind of been on a journey and we're not really sure it it's flip-flopped so many times and you know it's not exactly clear political leadership really It really isn't because if as some many people said if if you really need to be told by a court what a woman is and only then can you even say the words and even now he hasn't really actually said the words Um it tells you an awful lot about him doesn't it that he needs a legal framework for pretty much everything that he does Yeah I mean it's an odd approach to politics because obviously the Equality Act since 2010 hasn't changed but many organizations were I heard my friend Venice on your show earlier and she was she sort of put it exactly right that lots of organizations including the NHS and other government departments were were sort of interpreting the Equality Act according to Stonewall and mermaids and other activist groups rather than the actual intention of the law And that's a 15year-old law things have changed socially so much but we haven't adapted to that and now it almost seems you know we've really got to sort of learn it all over again right and I mean do you worry that some of these organizations like the NHS are going to kind of push back on this because there still seems to be an argument in the in the common sort of um space I suppose if you like where people are saying well you know we are going to make an exception for this or for that or for for these people and because we you know we're going to you can't really interpret the law now that the Supreme Court has said well it is Surely no no you shouldn't have done anyway those people shouldn't have done anyway but as parliamentarians we didn't really pick this up I think this was our fault you know we weren't watching what organizations were doing and that's all the last few governments since since the law came in and they can't just decide I'm afraid that the Supreme Court the highest court has said that this law applies to biological men and biological women organizations can't just decide that they're going to ignore that because they're breaking the law yeah exactly and how dismayed were you when you saw saw Bridget Phillips in the day before um talking about how Labour had always stood up for protection of single sex spaces for women because I think many of us weren't entirely sure that that was true No I mean it's not true We can all see it There's there's memes and gifs and clips of interviews I mean I think that's that's the worst thing that politicians can do We get accused of all being the same or being liars And if you are doing exactly that and the public are watching particularly during an election period it's not great is it We can all see and hear what people have said before including on this channel where lots of people have squirmed when asked the question about what is a woman Yeah exactly right And I mean in terms of that question now I still don't see Karma actually um defining it because when um he was being quizzed yesterday by Kimmy Bnog who I thought did particularly well very much better than she has done in the past Um he just falls back on this kind of um clarification is is a great thing and it's all clarified for us now And so now we can we can make sure that the guidance is right And it's like you don't need guidance surely to know what a woman is I think that's that's often sort of thrown at Karma isn't it That he's very robotic that he sticks to the letter of law And that of course that was his former job That's great But when you're a politician you need to at least seem to come across as someone who understands how people feel about this you know and I don't see any reflection of that from him over most issues but this one has been particularly vexacious and horrible And his backbenches a lot of them the newer ones seem to be very annoyed with him on the other side of the arguments to me So I think you know he's not in a great position but I think having a stand on it would probably be a good idea and and giving the idea that you understand and empathize with either or both sides and what they've both been through would probably be a good idea actually Do you think that the sort of the terminology is difficult and wrong as well I mean would it be difficult Would it be different if in fact you didn't call trans women trans women You call them something else I don't know what else you could call them I mean I guess that's up to them themselves you know what they want to be called But um you know there has to be a distinction You know lots of women like me don't want to be called cis women We're just women you know So um I think you do have to be sort of careful of that kind of thing And you know it's not for me to tell trans people what to call themselves at all but but yeah I mean the law stated very clearly biological women biological men you know this certificate doesn't really make a difference I mean we had a caller because we were talking about the marathon and stuff and how you know a lot of the organ the athletic organizations are still allowing you know trans women to run uh in um women's category And she said maybe we should start calling them biological women But I think that's a step backwards isn't it Because surely we don't need to do that do we We are just women and men And you know I think if you're stepping outside of those categories that we all know then yeah why not call yourself a trans identified or trans women or transmen That's man that's okay But I think sport has been one of those areas hasn't it Where there's distinct physical advantages to men in sport that women don't have You know we're different We're built differently And we've seen so many cases of injustice and unfairness in sport So recategorizing that so that only women can run in the women's part of a race is just common sense Well you would think so And I mean you wrote a piece in the mail yesterday saying you weren't expecting an apology from Karma You didn't get one in public Has he ever tried to contact you in private to to apologize for the way you were treated Absolutely not No And I mean I don't personally care that much about an apology It's the Labour Party that put me through all of the things they put me through And the guy who was the chief investigator of my case for 13 months and other MPs is now an MP who was sort of sent to a very safe seat Um so that's a bit gling sometimes to to see the support that he probably gets from the Labour Party But it's ordinary people that were thrown out of the Labour party stopped from standing as counselors stopped from being officers in their local branch They're the ones that owed an apology Yeah And Lisa Nandi of course uh who now says that she understands that she might have mis mis misled herself on what the law actually was She now says um or she did say rather that people um who were part formed parts of hate groups like you um should be should be fired and kicked out of the party I mean that was how strongly she felt about it Yeah I mean women and men who just want the what we've known in history from year dot that women are women and men are men I I don't think you can suddenly start revising facts like that and you know that's that's a weird way of putting and what do you think about the way the NHS has reacted to all of this as well because there will be some public sector bodies and some schools and universities maybe um where it's going to be it's going to be a sort of a long road to get them to recognize that they were wrong I think it's really difficult and we've seen nurses it's the ordinary low paid workers doing ordinary jobs let's not forget who've been most frightened to speak up and this I'm afraid this is partly an issue of class and privilege and we don't talk about that enough I don't think when we discuss this issue but it's always the people that can be let go that are let go and we don't hear about them We don't hear their names in the papers which is why the Darlington nurses are so brave because they put this front and center you know and we know now that those nurses all they wanted to do is get changed in private A man a male doctor was allowed to go into their space That's that's outrageous The NHS can't just do that We all pay for the NHS They are accountable directly to the health secretary Yeah And the BMA have said that no there's no absolute um necessity for for a doctor to declare uh their gender or their sex And so if you are female outrageous if you're a female Yeah If you're a female patient who wants a female doctor surely you you deserve to get a female doctor Absolutely If you are a female with especially intimate examinations and you want a a female with a female's body and a female's lived experience you may or may not have have experienced abuse yourself but you might just want your own privacy and your own dignity And that's allowed as well And I think if there's any way that you can ask for that kind of health care provider to be a woman if you are a woman or a man if you're a man you know then then so what Why not Yeah Exactly Right Finally you were wearing a little dinosaur brooch on your jacket yesterday and from what you again from what's on your social media uh page from Meline Grant in the Telegraph Was that a message to David Lambie I mean it was a joke I mean poor David Lammy he phoned up and apologized when the whole um dinosaur gate thing sort of exploded But we all you know us women on my side enjoy it It's fun It's it's just a silly thing that we've kind of embraced and we call ourselves dinosaurs anyway Yeah And how you enjoy being an independent MP Is it better than being over on the other side It really is I'm afraid You know I' I've the party that I love that I've always been involved with I feel you know I've lost touch with and that they've kind of let me down in lots of ways And I didn't resign over this issue It was just one of many All the things I've been campaigning as and against as a Labor MP and a Labor activist most of my life seems to be going backwards in this Labor government And it's profoundly disappointing I'm certainly not the only Labour MP or ex- Labor MP who feels like that Indeed Rosie good to talk to you Thanks so much for joining us and good luck with it all Rosie Dufffield independent former Labour MP for Canterbury of course