one thing I did want to ask you and I think the audience would be annoyed if I didn't ask you the term that you coined which is turtle soup turtle soup it's a phenomenal the last year or two in particular because someone's try to not hijack it but essentially coming up that they've created this concept what are your thoughts in terms of developing Concepts what is the process of going about doing that the turtle soup came about when I was writing the street smarts book in 1996 with Larry Connor and turtle soup was tongue and cheek at the time that turt Turtle strategy of trend following had been popularized and so we're like well when that fails it's turtle soup chuckle chuckle chuckle Linda rashki a 40-year trading veteran who managed over $300 million I want people to understand the power of the pure technicals I'm such a pure technician you don't need news you don't need order flow you don't need all this extra stuff you're playing with the best and brightest and smartest Minds in the world who have better execution less friction so it's not a zero sum gain it's a negative sum gain the markets are always changing your last trait for being successful is that you [Music] must the number one podcast in the trading space the fastest growing and that's Banks to every single one of you before we get into this episode guys I just want to ask for one favor 52% of you aren't subscribed to the channel currently so if you can just hit like And subscribe right now it will help us more than you will ever know it will help us bring you and continue to bring you the best seven and eight figure Traders from around the world thank you now let's get into this episode welcome everyone back to the words of wisdom podcast we are back once again and we are still on our incredible us tour we're in our final State and that is I would say sunny Florida but I brought the rain from England with me so but we are in Florida and uh we are very much excited for this particular podcast we're still the number one trading podcast in the world and the fastest growing thanks to all of you and our incredible guests and a huge shout out to trade Zella for allowing this tour to take place the number one trading tour in the market for back testing in-depth analytics and automated journaling so make sure you check them out but today this is a podcast I've been looking forward to for a very very long time before we ever scheduled it I just hoped that one day we would be able to make it happen and thankfully we've been honored today to be able to do so and we are joined by a 40 plus year trading veteran you know known as one of the very best female traders in the world and the author of trading sardines we are with the one and only Linda rash thank you Rose thank you for having me is my absolute pleasure as a guest and i' like to go straight into something because as I I mentioned I literally read an article on the way here which had you on a list of one of the very best female traders in the world and I just love to ask that what would you say separates yourself is there one thing that you could really pinpoint that separates yourself from many others over the years who have tried and and maybe not have made it in trading first of all I'd like to say I hope it's not female Traders because there's not that many of them and I'd like to just be recognized for the bottom line and I I think that is one of the things that's so defining about our industry is that it doesn't care about your gender or your race or where you come from it's not female or male specific unless you're on an Institutional desk at Goldman Sachs so for everybody out there that comes from all sorts of different ages and backgrounds and circumstances just keep that in mind it has nothing to do with being male or female it's all 100% bottom line business um with that said I can only tell you about my own personal experiences because um you know there's so many different variables and components that go up into an individual's makeup and so I don't know uh I can't speak for others why perhaps they failed I can suggest some traits that I felt that were strong suits of mine that um opened that door for me and the first one would be I have um very good ability to be single-minded incredibly focused and I think that that single-mindedness um and that came from uh several different things I mean I used to be a Pianist when I was growing up I'd play six hours at a time for practicing and so that takes a lot of concentration and ability just to focus but is very important for not only trading but any Peak Performance Sports be it tennis golf whatever you must tune out everything else and have zero distractions and so just be mindful for those of you that are listening to this how many times you are pulled outside of your Flow by social media or TV or noise or distractions and I don't think that you have great odds of uh long-term success as long as you don't make concerted efforts to start to eliminate those things um another thing was I had a lot of periods early in my life early maybe like 14 through 24 where I had extreme adversity and everybody has adversity that comes in different forms it doesn't it could be poverty it could be abuse it could be you know health issues it could be a lot of different things but I think that once you have overcome some type of adversity particularly during those those teenage years or early years um it builds characters and it allows you to withstand stressors later on in life and so if you haven't had that experience or uh ability to overcome adversity early on you need to be extra careful if all of a sudden you hit your 30s and you think life is easy cruising you're going to be a much more fragile type of uh makeup when something extraord ordinary does happen which it will inevitably you know so um that would be the number two thing you know and in that process of overcoming adversity I also think that you gain tremendous self-confidence and belief in yourself and so that's the other danger about listening to opinions of others or being influenced by others in the marketplace is every time you do that what your subconscious is saying is I don't truly trust myself or have the belief in myself to find my own way and it is a long journey you know it's a journey of trial and error and I would say that um you know you have to at least make it through the first 10 years you know sometimes we can have initial early successes you know and it might be both result of Market environment things but I I think ultimately you are trying to go towards looking for the ingredients that would ensure success generation after generation decade after decade and out there you know 20 years from now being successful no I couldn't agree more and that is exactly what we're trying to highlight throughout this you know podcast the the things that will allow people to progress and to make Leaps and Bounds within their Journey but not just for a short period of time no doubt you've probably seen many aders who you know came came along throughout your career who performed quite well for a period of time maybe they decided to leave the industry and move on to other things but many who may have performed very well as you said may maybe it was market conditions or certain Market environments or Market event that they were able to take advantage of and unfortunately maybe didn't perform beyond that and that's why it's you know pivotal and and that's why we're so excited to be able to have someone like yourself who is being able to observe all those things but have such a long-standing career and just to go back to your very original point which is I think extremely valid which is it doesn't matter in terms of your background in terms of your gender none of that things matters in the markets and the bottom line being the most important thing I couldn't agree more and you know that's why in terms of this uh podcast we love to highlight those principles the principles that make that bottom line take place and uh I loved what you said in terms of focus because that is something as you mentioned social media as an example I think that's a huge distraction you it has its benefits of course that being being able to interact with other Traders because one key difference from when you started out to now is that you know when you started out it was more flaw based and therefore you're in an environment of Traders all around and you're able to observe what different people are doing but now it's very isolated very much at home but then social media is available but can be a huge distraction what do you think Traders should be looking for when they are utilizing say whether it's social media or some sort of community what should they be focused on and then what should they sort of be avoiding in terms of to keep their focus on what actually matters in terms of the markets well I do think that the mediums of communication have changed you know they show that the number of people that actually meet somebody else in person that might become their maid is like down by 90% you know you're meeting people online and it has become the norm for definitely social interaction in a lot of ways so you just simply need to differentiate between the social interaction part of it versus what is going to support you in your business uh goals and I think that you can draw some boundaries um uh I think a person that talked about this that's well known as a trading coach is Steve Ward and having these overlapping intersecting circles so during the trading day you either make it a point just to do your own work have your own thoughts or there are some alternatives for example um I use Skype I have two or three buddies that you know I've been on Skype with for like 30 years and uh we don't talk about trade ideas it's more just the humor or if a report comes out or something interesting but there's nothing to say that in the evening you can't joke around with your friends scroll through Instagram reels or post on Facebook or whatever your medium is towards reaching out with other people and then with that said also make a conscious effort if it means going to the gym or walking your dog or even at the store it's still very important to you know say to the checkout person oh thank you very much you know hope you're having a good day or anytime that you can carry on a live conversation with people it goes so far uh further in terms of benefiting our own neurotransmitters and things like that um so it's uh there's so many solutions you know you just have to be creative in finding them and lastly recognizing the addiction side of the equation and that is what you must figure out how to pull free from um anything that's clicking the mouse that's interacting with the Twitter Twitter social media Instagram Tik Tok all these things they are manipulated to juice that dopamine you are a puppet that's being manipulated to juice that dopamine and that's why the Uproar against Tik Tok sort of hijacking our youth there with their algorithms and there's so many other ways that you can do that for example every time you hit a tennis ball or a golf ball it's the same thing releasing dopamine and uh do your own research read up on it and and try and think of one or two other avenues that you can still get that same little jolt I loved what you said at the end there in terms of recognizing the addiction or being aware of what's going on and trying to be more proactive in making those changes because I think that's where a large part of you know the term drifting from outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill essentially just you're doing stuff without even realizing you're just drifting along and I think unfortunately a lot of of us and a lot of Traders out there and it could even be in periods of time in our lives but a lot of us find ourselves in those moments where we're just kind of like robots almost just doing things without being aware of them and only when you bring that awareness in as you mentioned can you then start to make changes or start to at least recognize where your faults are or even where you're doing things right one thing I'd love to ask you which is in terms of trading like even to this day you're very like even today you're posting charts you know Futures charts on on Twitter and I thought or X now and uh you know I just love to know what is the the drive is is trading almost in your DNA at this point do you think uh I wouldn't say that it's in my DNA and I'm not trading fulltime I'm not trading full leverage in the size that I I used to do I was actually supposed to go out to the barn and and uh ride but my horse clicked you know in the middle of last night so I just was like well I might as well sit here it's raining and so forth but um I I almost always have a position on I can't I can't help it it's just because it's like you're walking down the sidewalk you see a dollar bill well you pick it up right I mean it's not anything huge but you know it's just uh yeah okay and I know my game and so there are there's a part of me I just said on one hand you need to do your own work so some things I'm not going to post necessarily on a timely basis but I want people to understand the power of the pure technicals I'm such a pure technician and I can show you so many fabulous things um that you don't need news you don't need order flow you don't need all this extra stuff okay and so sometimes I do that to say see this is what a trend day looks like this is a pattern eat the tail now you go see if you can find 20 examples of that yourself self you know and so it's just my little way of you know hopefully pushing a few people oh that looks interesting oh let me see if I can find some past chart examples oh yeah you know that's because I I feel kind of very strongly at this point what is going to be durable and robust and hold the uh you know the test of time and um that's a tricky issue because the markets are always changing so there's your last trait for being successful is that you must have the ability to adapt so the so Bandit game came and went you know there's all kinds of games uh I call them games but they might be playbooks that have come and gone over the ages obviously you know the cliche of Doge for right now is it doesn't take money or brains to make money in a bull market you know and so this error of hyper liquidity that hopefully will will last for another 2 3 years we don't know but it's not going to be there forever and how are you going to adapt and change your game you know 10 years from now perhaps when we could just be in a long flat sideways period for a decade and the momentum game will completely go away so yeah that that adaptability is very important factor but you know as far as myself I mean it's it's just fun I think it's um probably true with anybody that's become proficient in something you know I can't play the piano like I used to but I have friends you know Larry McMillan's a very brilliant pianist people probably wouldn't know that about him um he puts out an option Service uh but he can sit down and just rattle stuff off the keyboard up and down and there's no better feeling in the world you know uh same thing with you know if you're a great sports player tennis I mean maybe you're not competitive at golf tennis but you take your your grandchild out on the course and you know you can play a great game and and it's another way of getting you into that glorious state of flow that's cliche but it's true in terms of being able to Pivot like are there key things that people can look out for when it's time to Pivot or things that can help them to make those you know be able to change and adapt to the the markets or the times um well there's one thing that's really important important in the markets and that is and this is credit to humans over Ai and artificial intelligence and these things and part of this is my own opinion I don't know if it's substantiated anyway where but this ability to process relationships that's what makes a successful Trader okay so it's noticing if two data points are converging or moving further away it could be a relationship between two different markets it could be a relationship in terms of you know pricing models it could be a relationship in terms of where are we trading relative to the opening price so um same thing what leads to outliers and aberration which there's huge gold if you can uh recognize and out liar as it's unfolding and I'm not talking about an overnight event driven type of uh situation but more for example um when yield curve had which had been banded in a banded type of range or just say interest rates in general had been in abandoned range for many decades and the yields on the 30-year bonds uh started going outside of that range okay so human instinct anytime we start to see a relationship that expands past what we're used to or our comfort zone people want to go in and immediately try and Arbitrage that or converge it to look for that reversion back to the mean does that make sense so far yeah so I think humans feel very comfortable playing this reversion to the mean type of game but your ability to recognize when something is not going to revert back to the mean but continue on in that direction is really where the Superstar Traders are made and so I think that a a Trader with experience that's another Edge you know stay in the game long enough and you will build up experience um once you have that experience and you can recogn ize something like that unfolding I think that you have the ability to process that perhaps a little bit more quickly than you know the AI algorithms which are naturally trained on past data you see so um and we can't tell an algorithm you know this is expected or normal and this is not but I do think a human with experience can see when something unusual is beginning to happen profitable trading really boils down to two things opportunity and volatility and that is why the podcast has partnered with Market Journal because between the years 2016 and 2020 the amount of opportunity that was available as well as volatility to take advantage of was at the highest has ever been and all of that really pointed towards one man president Donald Trump during his period in office all it took was one tweet and that would present so much volatility and the right Traders would take advantage of that and and would create their record pnls and that is why those same Traders are so excited for this new period between 2025 to 2029 when we have President Donald Trump back in office now Market Journal is going to give you the weekly insights you need across crypto Forex Futures and the stock market so regardless of what happens whether it's a tweet a particular stock running up hundreds of% whatever volatility and opportunity that 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consistently gone out with them what I personally love about Alpha Futures they have the highest draw down two target r ratio in the entire Futures industry meaning you get the most draw down to trade with to hit that Target which is absolutely phenomenal now I don't know if I should be saying this but Alpha Futures is actually brought Alpha Prime which is the first of its kind in the entire industry where Traders can get a salary and trade with real life Capital get access to so many tools and Risk Managers all by being a consistent Trader at Alpha Futures they have advanced plans standard plans now on both of those plans you can get 20% off thanks to the podcast and that is using the code Riz so that's RZ the links in the description below now let's get back to the episode understanding the importance of relationships that's something that you don't have to have a college education for it's a different type of intelligence it's not a matter of oh you passed the sat with you know 1,500 um because I know a lot of these top proprietary firms will look for people that have been from IV League school and so forth but understanding that if you don't have that type of education there's that type of intelligence also where if you can take a cube and you know they'll have the little puzzle pieces and only show part of it and say okay which is the missing piece that goes and fills this little back hole back here you see and so it's this spatial relationship this other type of intelligence I think that's very important for trading and the markets and um it's it takes you out of that whole pressure to be in that Quant realm you know to be able to quantify thing even though I I do believe a lot in modeling and so forth but um you know I kind of went off in five different tangents on this uh matter of relationships but just think about it think about if you're in the marketplace and you put on a trade let's say you had no idea what that market was doing initially but for whatever reason you put on that trade and now you're watching it for five minutes you have a much better feel as what that market is doing because now you're watching the price action relative to your entry price see so it's uh it ends up being sort of this or organic holistic type of of uh I hate that word intuitive you know or feeling but it it is a gestal type of thing you know that was my question to go to go off on that in terms of um you know the AI trading and and sort of Algos how important as an individual Trader though how much play does Intuition or I know you didn't like that word so I apologize how much does that that that gut feeling that intuition how much does that play into you know your trading or just generally as Traders and Traders You' interacted with how much does that come into Trading well I always have my homework sheet from the night before so it's very basic too it's look to buy look to sell you know something and then I might set up uh 20 different markets and I might make trades in three or five of them because my name's for is very much a numbers game for me I strongly believe in fat tails and I strongly believe that the bulk of my profitability will come from recognizing and riding one of those even if it's just for a day you know so uh the markets are so Bountiful in these fat tails and people are always cutting off their nose to spite their face you know playing for little profit targets but that's really important concept to study you know how can you capture these outliers even if it's not an event driven but let's say for example where do the larger swings come from where are What are the pre-exist in conditions that lead to a better move on say a 2hour chart even that type of study so um it's uh the intuition word I'm I'm the worst if it comes to intuition I'll get it wrong every time I'll get it wrong every time trying to analyze news or macro trust me I I know that but intuition technically is a compounding of all your experience see so so if you've been in the markets for 30 40 years the compounding of all the experience and the charts that you've seen over and over and over is what has created this area in your subconscious or unconscious whatever you want to call it and so a little bit of that bubbles up and that's what intuition is in my definition so there's a lot of times where I can give you a really good example because it happened today uh and I'll it'll also show you I get caught in little stuff like everybody else I for whatever reason coffee's been having this prolonged coil and and I know better than to try and go in there and get into these dead markets until they come to life but I was waiting for a little sign yesterday will it come to life and it started on you know early on coming to life so I bought coffee and it took out the little swing high and stuff and then I always sort of analyze the positions in the middle of the day and uh it wasn't looking so great it had come back down and then it was down a little bit before below where I bought it from and then all of a sudden I'm watching it and I'm going this is another freaking false breakout isn't it yeah you you got me again and I just you know flatten it and was like okay you know because that happens to me all the time I know I'm wrong flatten and then today I wasn't really paying attention to much of anything but I had my little quote board I'm watching and and I'm like I'll be a son of a gun that little freaking Market is up uh you know four bucks you know four and a half bucks when I sit down I'm like I know you little little weasel you you know so I didn't even have to look at a chart because if it was going to be a test reject it would have had continuation to the downside all right that's the expected price action if something fails you want to see it continue in the direction of the failure not just be that little uh you know one day trap so it was starting back up and I just like I just bought it at the market I didn't even have charts they were all on 10 minute delayed on this computer you know and then all of a sudden it's up like 13 you know 13 handles and it was my biggest winner of the day so that was intuition in terms of not knowing what it was going to do but like it's I've seen the markets do this to me before sometimes they like to have that last shape of the apple tree before they then do the real move and you see that and if you've seen it 100 times that's part of why it takes so long to really feel confident about trading is just because we've seen it and learned the hard way a million times but then you can act with so much more confidence when you do see it so that's my definition of intuition I love it and it's backed by you experience as you said and do you believe that then your confidence to be able to act on that intuition that experience comes from uh seeing those patterns over over time seeing the the markets move over time in the same ways and present very similar situations and then you know by able maybe the first few times is difficulty to be able to trust that that intuition that that experience but the confidence comes from you taking the actions over time and then as you start to see results start to see that the intuition technically or the experience is sending you on a correct path that's where you build the confidence to be able to trust in well I think that confidence is something that a person just has or doesn't have okay if they didn't have confidence somewhere perhaps from prior experiences perhaps they were good in sports when they were young perhaps they were good in a subject at school there has to be some innate sense of confidence which is really belief in yourself okay but I mean we never know for sure I when I do stuff now I don't even think about it it's like I don't want to have to process anything during the day I'm not as good with words I'm of I'm better with the charts and numbers and relationships and if I had to describe to myself what I was doing ahead of time I would just get so tangled up in all the words I wouldn't never pull the trigger so it's more like um it's it's it's automatic you know but I'll I'll keep my eye on it for a minute or two unlike yesterday where I got caught up in other things and all of a sudden I'm looking I oh you know I really kind of forgot I put that position on in terms of uh going back I know early on in the in Korea there was a moment where You' uh lost a large sum of money I think it was like for you at the time it is 18 which time well one time I did love for one of the chapters in your book which thank you for sending that to me by the way Incredible Book if you you haven't seen that make sure you check that out trading sardines and I loved one of the chapter names which was oops I just love that as a as a trading book that just sounds like I think everyone could relate to even just the chapter name and they could probably try and guess what would be in there but I think very early on there was like 85 plus 86 89,000 oh when I blew out you mean selling straddles and takeover stock that time that time yes oh yeah I wanted to ask like what was it that kept you in the game kept you pushing on even going through that experience which no doubt you because I didn't want to file bankruptcy which would have been my only option in age 22 I mean I uh I really didn't have any choice I was an indentured servant into the business it was a really miserable next five years cuz every dime I made was paying back the clearing firm I'm probably the only fool out there that paid back 100 cents on the dollar you know later on I found out everybody negotiated these deals you know but uh clearing firms made a lot of money off me so so what was the the mindset from going from there and what would you say that really helped you to go from that process of was that quite early on into into your trading career yeah like the first year really wow and then you know going into later in your career you've been highlighted in New Market wizard by Jack Scher you managed a hedge fund with over 100 million dollars 300 million yeah yeah triple triple that number 3 it was actually 250 but it was on two to one leverage so we had a Class B shares that was twice the class A shares yes let's take a break for a minute there guys cuz I want to tell you about our sponsor trade Zella trade Zella is the number one trading tool for all Traders doesn't matter whether you're a crypto Trader a Futures Trader or a Forex Trader whatever Trader you are all you do is connect your trading platform directly with trade Zella it automates and makes your trading journaling so easy if you want to be a profitable Trader you need trading Edge and that is exactly what trade Zeller does it allows you to identify Edge maintain your Edge and optimize your Edge by automating your trade journaling in-depth analytics back testing bar replay and so much more now W gets you 20% off 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platform designated to you even your most favorite and loved trading platforms now I don't know if I should be telling you this but Alpha capital is about to launch Alpha Prime and that is the first of its kind in this entire industry a salary for their consistent profitable Traders live Capital with access to tools mentorship and Risk Managers truly becoming a professional Trader and that is a pathway through Alpha Prime there'll be more details about that no doubt cuz I don't know if I meant to tell you anyway thanks to them and thanks to the podcast you can get 20% off 20% off any in all challenges one step two step three step swing day trade Scout whatever it's 20% off across the board R Iz use the code links in the description below let's get back to the episode like when you were in that moment early on did you ever foresee yourself getting to those sort of levels and and reaching those sort of heights in your career I never thought about it I never even thought about it once I mean I am very much a uh a daytoday person I get superstitious about looking too far down the road you know I do I want to stay in the moment and just do the best job I can at the time um and with that said there was one time it was I I mentioned it too in the book very early on I confess that I uh had I had a bad illness at the time it was an immune deficiency uh thing and I just really was uh a vegetable for about 2 years years and um I was I saw an infomercial on late night TV that was Tony Robbins and it was the the cassette tapes so that tells you just how long ago it was his cassette tapes and he went through this process you know write down goals I listen to a tape every day half an hour after the close and I even had an assistant then I don't know why because we weren't even trading was like okay we're going to listen to these things you know and I was just hoping for some tips on you know restoring my vitality and goodness knows and he said write down your goal you know type of thing and I wrote down I wanted to make x amount of dollars within uh you know three years and that was about the only time I ever did that and I I did it in half the time wow and ever since then I I'll just tell you one other profound moment in my life and I was I was trading by myself I was I'd left the trading floor I was out of my home office which consisted of ,000 like line teleone line to get the data and another, to uh I don't it wasn't M Weber it was Quron Quron right so $2,000 and I don't even have charts people have no idea how good they have it now right and um I used to write down my you know p&l every day and keep this running tally of uh you know how my account balance was and I clearly remember it was like sometime in July and I think it was 1986 maybe 86 or 87 and I kind of became impressed with myself right I'm like oh wow look at this you know Kiss of Death kiss of death I don't think I reached a new high water mark for like I don't know five months you know after that and I'm like I am never again looking at my daily balances you know I know I know in my head if I'm up or down I know how much a position made or not but even uh with my hedge fund and I I first I was a principal Trader for several other funds and I started my own I started an offshore fund people don't know about that one and um and then my main fund the granite fund which was the one that was um I think we were ranked 17th out of 4500 for top 5ye performance and even when I had that I had all my money in it I never had a separate trading account so all my money was in my own fund on two to one leverage I never had any idea what it was my business manager took care of the taxes so I didn't see that and um I had another colleague who wrote down all you know in an Excel sheet and stuff the uh p&l and kept the balances so that our investors could see that because they want to know and um I never looked at it once and I think that was what allowed me to keep on such an emotional even Keel not get high if there was a big win not get low if there was a losing win a losing trade but trust me you know if you've been trading that long You' got a pretty good idea just exactly where you stand and so um I could truly stay focused 100% on the process and that was a super strength for me just staying focused on the process and that is darn near impossible if you are a newer Trader starting out and you have an account size of $20,000 or $30,000 or you don't have money set aside to live off of for one and a half to two years it's a very big challenge you either better have a rich Uncle that's going to die and leave you a ton of money or you got to you know scrap and Claw and get some people to believe in you to put a little pool of money together but you cannot trade properly when you are worried about losing you know or watching even the uh fluctuations during the day of the p&l so that's a big hurdle for a lot of people it definitely is and I think it's such a valuable lesson because as you say if that was something that helped you to stay focused on the process then I would imagine that a lot more people who are hopefully listening to this will be able to take action on that as well and try and Implement that themselves because as you say if you're trading with much smaller Capital as well like especially starting out that is the focus you're focusing on that p&l consistent you're focusing on trying to avoid loss every loss is really really a painful experience when by focusing I think what the misconception is is rather than focusing on the monetary aspect which is of course why a lot of people get into trading in the first place by focusing on that it lot it rather heightens the emotions because the one thing guaranteed in trading is that you will lose and then you when you do lose if the one thing that you're really focused on is the monetary aspect you're only going to have a negative experience when that takes place versus by focusing on the process you then yes you'll have losses yes you'll have wins but as a result that's usually how you'll end up making money overall uh as a byproduct of focusing on that process but how important in terms of focusing on the process how important is that for Traders to be doing and when you would you be able to Define process from from your standpoint absolutely process is the routines and the rituals for starters um and I mean those are very important you know at the end of the day some people might write down uh their numbers or their trades or do some type of logging um you know the process of when are you going to put together your game plan for the next day or scroll through your charts the more regular and consistent you can be at doing it at the same time the same way it's it's very important you know to do that and then another thing that was important for me and I think people might have to be creative in in doing this was setting up your own support system so when I started off obviously I wasn't married I didn't have kids I didn't even have a car I could lead a very frugal lifestyle with a roommate you know and not spend hardly any money and so I didn't need much to live off and um and then later on when I had my fund and I was married and I did have a kid I was blessed in that my husband was Mr Mom so he took over the duties of doing the grocery shopping the cooking taking the kid to you know parent teacher conferences and then that could allow me just to focus 100% on the business and then lastly um as I was became successful I had a business manager very important if you're going to run a business such as a fund and um all the phones went to her all the phone calls all the client interaction and she was in another state and I would you know at each month mail her up a packet of bills she'd take care of everything so I never had to deal with other than the due diligence uh visits that the asset allocators come and pay to your office um I never had to deal with that and it's a lot of extra work so I do think there is room for people that are on the verge of being right where they want to be to pull resources you see maybe pull a common office space where you can uh maybe get you know one gal Friday to do errands and you know pay bills or whatever it might be for you um it just depends on how badly you want something really I love that a large part of the conversation leads to or leads us back to what you mentioned very early on which is just being able to focus on what will generate results overall you know especially within your trading be able to focus on the trading itself the process itself versus all these external factors in life and and you know as part of you know going into the business side that can distract you and and take away your energy and and take away your focus from those things and it sounds like to be able to be a high performance Trader within the industry you need to have that focus on the actual trading element itself have a main focus and Main tension on that like did you have during your career where you focus on other businesses outside of trading did you have any Ventures outside of trading that you focused on as well or was were you purely focused on the Traders no it was pretty much purely trading I mean I went through a period where I had my first divorce you know and um I only had one divorce okay my my first of 10 divorces yes I'm I'm such a Palm Beach socialite there you know but you know my one divorce uh and at that time my husband was firmly convinced that I was hiding money offshore which was not true and uh but you know I had forensic accountants coming and doing oh my God so much ridiculous stuff so I had two fabulous people working for me my business manager and and a tech guy I'm like I really have to keep these people because I know when all this is water under the bridge I want to continue on with these people yeah and so I had started a sort of like a little chat room type of thing trading room and um and Ron Shear had been a friend he had started a group of Prop Shops generic was the name of them and he was actually the one who created the missile which was the AMX Futures on the American Stock Exchange big innovator I think he still dabbles in the markets today just smart smart guy and at some point I don't know how many Prop Shops he had like 70 across the country and uh you know I gone up to visit him one day and he said man I was just thinking about doing this little thing you know just to put out some ideas and he goes I'll pay you you know to create you know ideas just for my prop shot Traders all day you know I said well I really didn't want to do that but I had somebody else that had contacted me who loved stock stock chart addict I'm not going to mention names because that's not irrelevant to this particular uh podcast that we're doing but he was really good and so I said Hey Hey Hey Joe Blow I've got something are you interested in it sure enough he was he's Mr person personality so we got a little business going there for a couple years and I could pay everybody and then you know eventually it subsided but um no I mean I've pretty much eat breathe you know drink markets all my entire life and uh I liked it that way definitely no the reason I asked that is because I know that a lot of Traders from my interaction with them their goals is to essentially try and Achieve and replicate what you have and I think it's important to highlight how much focus in towards which is interesting because as you mentioned earlier you weren't someone who would write goals or anything like that so it wasn't necessarily something that you did but you had that as a goal but you're so again focused on the day-to-day of how do I perform today how do I what do I need to do today to uh continue to progress uh within this career and it's very interesting actually that side of things because as I said a lot of interaction that I have with the general Community is they have these goals of you know achieving Seven 8 n figures having funds and a large part of me does believe that they don't truly understand what it takes to get there which I'm loving this conversation because I think it really highlights that that that focus and that level of focus you know not only on the task but also to a degree maybe not spending a lot of time goal setting on on whatever that goal may be and actually just focusing on what's going to get you there but also how to achieve hyper success on that level you can't allow your focus to start looking at other outside things as well um but also what I would ask you actually is off the back of that what's the reality do you think of people being able to replicate that level of success because I do believe Traders can be successful and make good money from the markets and it might not be something that they do for 40 years it might be something that they do for 10 20 but then they you know be able to invest those profits accordingly and be able to then transition elsewhere well I think if you trade you do it because you enjoy the game you love the game I mean my best friend lives down the street you know she's in her 80s she gets up at 700 a.m. every morning to play bridge on bridge base and she's playing with people on the other side of the world she went to Las Vegas to play a bridge tournament she's like oh my God Linda it was so hard but she's like a master bridge player you know so she doesn't have to do that she's you know her husband passed many years ago and she's up at 700 a.m. on a Sunday morning playing bridge she loves it so if you really love the trading okay you're not going to stop and then take those profits and go become an investor you know the main reason why you would do that would be if you couldn't uh withstand the the pace and energy and time that it takes because it takes an inordinate amount of of time and resources period to the exclusion of not having much of an outside life yeah um but if if you think about uh a top tennis player Okay Serena Williams you know all you know some of the people yovic what do you think yovic does he eat breathes and sleeps tennis day in day out 247 he has his health coach he has his mental coach he has his private masseuse yes he has a wife and you know she keeps the family running but he is always working on something always and so it's the same thing with with trading you want to be at that level that's what it takes you know any sports player a professional pianist a concert pianist or opera singer or musician that you do it because that is your essence of who you are and and so um in terms of raw numbers here's a little bit of an eyeopener for you now I'm pretty confident that these statistics still hold true um Revco when there was a Revco which was a major clearing firm here in the United States in the future side had done a study of all of their accounts and now Revco was not like a little Fly by Night you know you know brokerage firm they were a major fcm with you know a significant amount of capital and they did a study of what percentage of their accounts were profitable at the end of the year profitable I mean mean just by even $1 and it was under 10% okay hundreds of thousands of accounts less than 10% are profitable and these most for most part were decent Traders and then it's not just being profitable what percent do you think are actually making their living meaning you can pay your mortgage you can put your kids through college you can you know sock money away take nice vacations without the extra services that you're selling because a lot of people out there as you know make a lot of money selling subscriptions and you know other things and more power to them that's fine I think it's very difficult to be a full-time Trader concentrating and giving all these seminars and webinars and you know you know all these other things I mean it might be doing a service for people and exposing them to different things but my opinion is if you are a super for good Trader it's a pain in the butt doing some of those other things just as a resource hog a memory hog it just you know then you're answering all these emails and I've been there I you know I did that with I did a few uh you know annual Workshop thing and like and I spend the next two months answering questions and I'm like oh my God why did I you know so um but I do think it's like about 2% maybe and so then later on about 10 10 15 years later I asked some good friends at at trade station actually and because I was on the institutional desk and they can't say they can't disclose yes or no but I was kind of like well this was a study that was done you know 10 12 years ago do you think it's sort of along the same lines you know it's like yeah you know so if people understand that let's take all the open accounts right right now forget the Robin Hood Days forget the funny money and the diamond hands and the checks and all that kind of stuff and of course crypto's an insane world right now um I got a story for you there too that will really blow you away but I'm digressing um but take all these accounts that are out there now and say who is going to be profitable 5 years from now and I bet you it'll be about 5% % so the numbers not not really shifting at all I don't think so no because you're playing with the best and brightest and smartest Minds in the world who have better execution than you do less friction than you do as a retail Trader you still have The Vig which is you know the bid ask the commissions the slippage all these other variables so it's not a zero sum game it's a negative sum game that you have to overcome against all the other big baddest brightest Minds out there and you know I love behavioral Finance because it tells us so much about ourselves and we are all overly optimistic about how smart we are you know we might just be average but we still think we're smarter than the next person you know and we have cognitive biases whether you recognize it or not or you want to admit it or not and that's also a huge downfall for people there's 40 different types of cognitive biases that you can research on the internet and uh the biggest cognitive bias do you know what cognitive biases are the anchoring the you know recency bias all these types of things the uh biggest cognitive biases is oh none of those apply to me I don't have any cognitive biases yeah that doesn't surprise me at all to and I'm sure I've I've probably felt that way myself on many occasions and one thing that I uh find interesting though is how those numbers haven't shifted yet the amount of access to information has increased exponentially the the technology has has taken us so far and the the availability to the average retail Trader you would assume that they would shift ever so slightly but they really haven't even from you know data and reports given from other brokerages and Al all kinds of brokerages and different elements of the industry whether it's Futures options or or Forex for example it all relatively is the same why information okay now there's a fallacy right there information is not going to necessarily help you trade it's how does the market react to the news what new information do you think that you are privy to that the big boys don't already know a long time ago that hasn't been leaked out of government offices to months earlier by the CEO with earning seriously how is information of that type of data helpful it's a distraction it's going to cause you to make unforced errors now here's a different side information such as the amount of volume that comes in on each five minute bar that's constructive information when I first started trading for the first 10 years we didn't have that in the Futures Market volume was not transmitted on a timely basis so you learn to trade without volume did it ever make a difference in my trading no because volume is highly correlated with the range of the bar and volume is also highly dependent on time of day functionality so ultimately your job as a Trader is to strip away these redundancies you know so that you're not getting same sources of information from two different types of feeds and if you can just reduce that down and keep on reducing that down um that's ultimately the journey I think of most traders that they start off and you play with indicators and you try different things and there's nothing wrong with that it's all good it's all part of exploration let me look at ikim moo clouds let me look at point and figure let me look at ranco bar let me all these different things because it draws you into different ways of processing data there's nothing bad about it at all and then pretty soon what you see is you might arrive at your own little thing and then the next 10 20 years it's reducing it down and getting rid of things and simplifying things and then you start to realize it's just a big game of money flows you know how much look liquidity is out there and that's the main driver not a stochastic or this or that so um and everybody has their own journey and I'm speaking just from my own experience so well what do you think in terms of the increase in educational content and educational information that's out there as well like you know the access to to information on that side of things also yet we still don't see a change in those statistics in terms of you know profitable Traders and not you would tell you yeah what does that tell you I think that um the markets are the best teacher and I think that uh we do our best learning on a walk forward basis so if you're determined to accelerate your learning reading more books and taking more courses is not the answer it's okay to take one course it's okay to you know I love the old books that were written you know 100 years ago I mean you can't beat shaaker in terms of basic technical analysis you know or or I don't know Edwards and McGee you know what what more is there to say after that you really it's there's support there's resistance there's Trend there's acceleration in momentum or deceleration there that's my class in technical analysis for you thank uh and time of day functionality but all joking side you can just take those Basics and if you sat down and each day what do I think is going to happen the next day is there a chart formation where would I place my buy or sell stop to initiate if I'm going to initiate that way on a walk forward basis and that's a notch above paper trading because paper trading has this little air of not as much thought put into it but pretend that you are putting out a fact service or a traditional service for somebody with your recommendations for the next day or what to look for see what happens and then the next day do it again and then the next day do it again so it's all this walk forward learning if I gave you one simple pattern and this is really the way that people should start learn one thing do nothing but that for 6 months don't overwhelm yourself with all this data and sensory stuff that takes a long time to learn how to process it really takes an incredibly long time to process all this data coming in start off with one simple thing maybe it's I'm going to look at the morning Trend 30 minutes after the NYSC has opened and to Europe close I'm just going to give it this little 2hour window I'm going to pick the top three relative strength leaders it could be Futures if you're doing that Arena or it could be stocks if you're doing that Arena and I'm only going to concentrate on catching a little continuation pattern during that very specific time frame now do that for six months and only then should you start to add but everything you're learning is on a walk forward basis and then you see what it looks like when it doesn't work and then you can say well why didn't this work today maybe because we're waiting for fomc results and there's no volume in the market so they if you don't have volume you don't get those continuation patterns and so in my opinion that's how the learning process should really go and the rest I mean you might pick up something here or there I mean there's no such thing as a bad course or a bad book you can find something in everything right but it this process of reading yourself silly you know and that's why I think that those Market Wizards books were such a smashing success they're not teaching people you know how to do technical analysis or trade they're showing that here's all these different people they had all unique Styles they all arrived at it on their own and made it work for them and I think people just love the thrill of seeing it done by others you know like knowing that you can run that sub force per minute and mile so um it's like the proof of concept you know it allows them to have it almost in a sense is like being able to have an example is is so powerful because then it gives you or at least feeds some form of self-belief because I know a lot of Traders you know for my interaction with them again and I've mentioned this a few times to be fair on the podcast is that they because they're very isolated and not really and they don't they might even be in the community but they don't know with confidence um if this person you know is legitimately making money from Trading and um the reason I say that is because I think that's where the as you said the market Wizards books really changed things was because everyone had trust knowing that you know we know Jack you know his his uh uh system of of verifying all his uh people highlighted his books is very thorough and you know people then were able to have ex live examples of people who are really actually you know made trading a full-time career and at a very high level and therefore knowing it's possible is very powerful thing but one thing that I also like to highlight from that com that that um that question that we just answered is I think a lot of people there isn't such thing as a bad book or bad course as you say but what I think the mindset is or the problem is is that the Traders are constantly looking for the very best thing they're looking for the Holy Grail they're looking for the thing that will give them super confidence in the markets so essentially almost trying to hunt something that doesn't exist but equally they assume a lot of the time I believe that things have to be complexed it has to be a complex system because the markets are complex the markets are so hard so you know the the natural way of thinking of that is my strategy must replicate that well as I know you're very um you promote a simple method simple concept as you just mentioned there is focus on one thing and learn and what I found is that a lot of people may join a course or read a book and what they do though is instead of actually taking the time to learn it first properly understand it first properly and then start to apply they'll try doing both at the same time where they've literally just watched the video they're applying it instantly without actually having the nuances without actually understanding maybe some data and then they wonder why that doesn't work and they jump to the next thing no and guess what that's been going on for 60 years it's not a recent phenomena I mean what do you think the old bucket shops in the 20s and 30s were and you know I mean all the all these people uh the uh White cough the you know the the they all wrote newsletters back in the day MH you know so uh but ultimately you know you you get exposed to new ideas there's nothing wrong with that it's part of the process you know it's it's fun it there used to be a period where people here in the United States would go to conferences you know the tag conference which was Dow Jones telerate and then there was the money show and there were these live conferences because there was not the internet and online trading and you could go and you could hear different speakers and see what sort of suited your style and get exposed to different ideas and then you would carry that back home with you and you know perhaps subscribe to uh Steve Moore's mrci seasonal program and then see how you liked that or or this you know this style so there's nothing wrong with that it all comes down to you have to do your own work and people are just freaking lazy they just don't want to do their own work and for me you know to if I am trading Full Tilt Boogie which I'm not right now because I'm kind of enjoying doing some other things in life but it would dictate that I need to spend one hour minimum every evening logging my numbers preparing my trade sheet and I'll go through periods where I'm like oh gosh I've got a 3-we stretch here I can you know maybe I'll just have some fun really getting into this you know I had a couple surgeries on my arm and elbow where I couldn't do other things so I'm like okay this is a good time to you know really get back into it but I still had to sit down every evening for an hour and um prepare it you know for the next day and um and then my research just never stops I'm always doing different projects and how can I automate this uh you know Oco trailing vol utility stop on you know cqg and blah blah blah so I can put the trade on and leave you know for the day and what are the what are the particular conditions that precede that and can I identify those through a linear program or do I want to bother with AI you know some type of machine learning type thing um which I really don't and um you know so it's just uh it's it's like sitting down and doing jigsaw puzzles every every night you have to enjoy that but generally as a general rule of thumb most people don't want to do the work they'd rather sit and watch the Netflix series or the you know yeah yeah yeah right they definitely do they definitely do and I I think it it really does boil down to that that work and being extensive do going the what what some might class the extra mile which I imagine you would class as that's just the work itself that's not going above and beyond for example that do yeah I think any entrepreneur will tell you anybody that has their own business including you there isz um they're not 40-hour work weeks I don't think yeah this yeah definitely not especially with this tool you know we really it's it's it's strange because as I said that above and beyond for example is the norm that that is the almost the The Benchmark you know and then you know above and beyond would be going I of if anything there isn't a a time or chance to have an element of a meon because you're already giving it your all you know um one thing I did want to ask you and I think the audience would be annoyed if I didn't ask you which was the the the term that you coined which is the turtle soup Turtle yeah which is a I don't know if you know this or not but it's a phenomenon over the last year or two in particular because someone's tried to not hijack it but essentially you know coming up that they've created this concept but uh what are your thoughts in terms of you know developing Concepts and uh creating strategies you know what is the process of going about doing that the turtle soup came about when I was writing the street smarts book in 1996 with Larry Connor and we were just joking around about everything having a good old time and turtle soup was tongue and cheek because at the time that Turtle strategy of trend following buying the 20-day highs you know had been popularized and so we're like well when that fails it's turtle soup chuckle chuckle chuckle right um so that's where that name came from now when you test this because people don't do their own testing but it's very important to model these things you'll see that the um longevity of that signal is a about one day so it's not it doesn't forecast necessarily that you're going to have this huge reversal in the opposite direction you might get that one out of every four times but you know that's something in modeling that I always do I always model the frequency of occurrence I model the the uh the delay in other words like let's say for example you're modeling a trend following system I want to know that there's not going to be a significant deterioration to the results if I enter a day later okay how much is dependent on you entering within what type of window okay so and then you want to see like the Decay you know how much uh impact does that signal have you know on the clothes the next day is open the next day is closed so forth and so forth so it kind of is like building these Actuarial grids all the time yeah so that's that behind turtle soup so just because there's this play around there and it reverses it can come back back up you know the very next day as did coffee you know so the other thing is that this game is very much semantics and that's what makes it fun so I'm sure a test and a failure test you know you have woff with his Springs and up thrust you have vix SPO is to be or to not to be you know I mean there's like a zil different little things and there's none of it's like copyrighted or trademarked or anything like that it's just make it a joke you know I don't care if somebody wants to to you know call it their own what what do I care you know exactly yeah know I don't have any ego in that area you know oh knock yourself off you want to have the Grail too fine take it it's yours do you know in terms of uh your trading how how much of it was mechanical versus discretionary oh was 100% discretionary yeah 100% I have done some mechanical trading when I had my fund I had a a couple uh little separate profit centers that were volatility breakout systems because that's one of the very few mechanical systems that has an edge although it has a ridiculous amount of variance you see so you have to know the nature of the Beast that you're dealing with um so I just thought it would be an additional overlay I learned a lot by trading the volatility breakout system I actually had somebody else doing the execution on that for me um um but net net it only added about 1% to the bottom line and I'm like that's just not enough to justify all the overlay of costs and time and work and energy so I would say 100% of my trading is discretionary but it's all around models so um and I test my models most of them are like if I entered on the close or if I entered on the next day's open you know so then what would the computer do you know and then I can have a benchmark to judge myself against a computer most of them also just have two variables maybe two variables and one filter so they're durable and robust the stuff is held up for 40 years it's all the same stuff I've been I do now I've been doing you know for all these years and uh the sophistication part might come in um do I want to Trail a stop you know I'm doing that a lot more because I can just walk out of the office then and uh you know set it and forget it I don't do it that much I put a lot of time and energy and development into this but it's still I I like being in control I like that and one thing that I've sort of tried to pick up on from our conversation is how how focused you are in terms of collecting data reviewing your trades and almost making decisions off the back or creating models off the backup data how important as a Trader is that um you know I did it in the very beginning I really haven't done it for 30 years I mean I have updated my models I'll occasionally run them to see if the stats are still the same and when I do my modeling or my testing I do it in threeyear blocks so I'll do you know okay 2000 to 2003 2004 to 2006 2007 to just so I can see if there was um a unique event that led to outperformance in a particular market for example natural gas at one point before we had fracking you know had some insane insane moves on some of these mechanical systems because it was hurricane season in the Gulf you know and then that went away but I don't want to include that in my results going forward and you know another PE thing that people forget is we have bull markets bare markets dead markets and just about every Market that's traded out there so so I I think it's really important to test in blocks and then the last thing is that people far underestimate the importance of sample size I see people drawing conclusions off of a sample size of like 26 I'm like huh you know like normal statistics would tell you that in order to get a decent confidence factor meaning some validity to your idea you need a sample size of around 36 or something if you're just looking at traditional standard deviation models and so forth and no my experience ISS you need a sample size of 300 before you can go about trusting anything which isn't easy because you might not have that frequency of occurrence but then that's where you have to say well I'm going to look across multiple markets that will build up my sample size now is it a true principle of price Behavior aha yes a market is a market doesn't matter if it's a market in cows or a market in corn or a market in bonds you know a mark they have their subtle nuances of course because of liquidity provisions and and commercials and seasonality and stuff but you know markets all behave very similarly in that they are driven by people and supply and demand they tend to overshoot to one side and overshoot to the other side that soros's theory of reflexivity which he did not invent but he came popularized from him and then all markets go through periods of um positive feedback loops you know and then uh tremendous periods of noise so those are the common denominators with just about all markets and if you understand that and can then understand the importance of putting things in context which is really where the experience level comes in you know understanding the context a continuation pattern is not going to work in a Range bound Market with too high of a noise Factor you know but a continuation pattern if you're so lucky to get one in a market that has these positive feedback loops it's like gold and you're probably not going to get one because that's why it's a positive feedback loop and it leads to that parabolic acceleration how do you trade that most people don't know because the frequency of occurrence is much less so we don't know how to deal with these events that come along that we just haven't seen much of so see now you understand how you can study this stuff till you're 97 years old with one foot in the grave and we can talk all day long here definitely definitely I want to finish up with just one or two last topics with you but one in particular was of course the the range of size that you would trade you know the the element of risk and profits and and and the general size of the trades that you took across your career would have dramatically increased over time and you know did you ever find any challenges or any key lessons from that Evolution well I hate to say it but my my trade size was much bigger the younger that I was oh yes oh yes we so this is this is very common too that the younger you are the more variance you have in your bottom line most people would be more like uh you know loose aggressive type of of Traders and then as we age you know we become tight you know aggressive type of style of trading and um but I especially when I started to manage money firmly believe in an even bet size so what I did is I reduced everything down to the average dollar range of that particular market and I redo this on a quarterly basis so um for example if the average dollar range of a corn contract is $600 but the average dollar range of a crude oil contract cont ract you know is $3600 well I can trade six times more corn per unit size than crude so I reduce everything down to a unit size now I might say okay for each $100,000 I have in my account or my program that will buy me one unit okay so now for every $100,000 maybe I'll trade six corn but I'll only trade one crude oil right and so now you just keep on multiplying that for every million dollars for every $10 million which makes it very easy when you're managing money and funds are going and coming and going and then you have to be mindful of correlation and it's not just correlation between gold and silver or the indices or something like that but you also have to be extremely mindful that correlations break down when there is an outlier event and that's where people really get into trouble thinking that they have a diversified trading portfolio but no it's just Katie Bar the Door liquidate everything throw the baby out with the bath water you know and so that's where you need that cut off for your account and say if my account balance drops down by more than 10% everything everything is getting closed out because you don't know if there was a nuclear blast or tsunami or what's happening so all of this is in a greatly neglected area called risk management and um the last thing that I'll say with risk management is that um because everybody likes to talk about entries and exits and all the little fun things and I don't know how much time you have I've got one story for you if you still have time of course no don't worry okay but this risk management thing is not just about the leverage that you use the stop the initial stop but also your use of capital time spent in the markets so for example um a person that's in the markets for the less time you are in the markets the less exposure you have put it that way the less risk you have so if I'm in the market for 10 minutes and then I'm out my risk is extremely minimal because not susceptible to any event risk or things along those lines you see and um so you can go off into so many tangents with this but it is a really important part of of the trading you know the the time the risk and and and and our own mental Capital right okay we can talk about our you know actual Capital that we have to trade but we do have to have a balanced life you know EX exercise and eat right and so forth and I could speak to you all day really I could and I would really enjoy to hopefully do something again in the future and I appreciate you being here as well with us today like I said it's a true honor and everyone at home drop a comment of your biggest takeaway from this episode I know there was so much links for Linda will be in the description below so make sure you check those out too other episodes are on screen and until next time everyone take care