for great stable coin entrepreneurs uh we have guy Young from Athena uh Sam from fra Jose from PayPal Nick vanak from Agora uh four quite different stable coin issuers obviously PayPal doesn't just issue stable coins they do other stuff too should we do one sentence description of what you are building in the stable coin space starting with with you guy sure can you hear me um hey I'm guy founder of Athena uh we look very different to the normal Fe stable coin we have a uh crypto collateral which is Delta hedged uh on exchanges and so that creates a delta neutral position where you can issue what we call a synthetic dollar uh we came out to Market in February of this year with a quickest growing dollar based asset to breach $3 billion um and yeah that's our story hey everyone I'm Sam founder of fra uh frax is the second oldest I think major decentralized stable coin after d uh one sentence is the decentralized Central Bank frax issues currencies and we stabilized them using smart contracts and now they're issued on our modular rollup fraxel hi I'm Jose I'm with PayPal what we are doing is taking the PayPal balance that is used by 400 million people Worldwide Moving it on on chain and using it to build the next generation of payment rails I'm Nick I'm one of the founders of Agora we're building an Institutional grade credibly neutral digital dollar and we share income with all the businesses uh that we work with awesome pumped to uh start this panel uh Sam we'll start with you in 2022 you and I well you were virtual you weren't on stage but you were on stage in a sense we had a panel days after Luna collapsed actually dwan was meant to be on the panel he pulled out and uh you know nobody's really tried to build Luna since then so my question is will there ever be anything like Luna again what are the prospects for that yeah I mean the reason I was on that panel uh is because fra totally withstood those downturns and fra is one of the most Lindy decentralized stable coins so I think Luna represented this this idea and of this decentralized currency that's stabilized by on on chain forces onchain economies and if people recall there's Terra chain right and and uh the thing with fra is the name actually for people wondering about the lore comes from fractional algorithmic and the idea with fra is you cannot build a fully algorithmic stable coin it just is not possible and that's the like thesis that we had you need exogenous collateral exogenous stability mechanisms exogenous systems like collateralized debt positions protocol own liquidity all of these things that have made things like d things like Athena and other stable coins actually withstand shocks and you can have Innovative components that we've designed we' designed things like OS which are algorithmic Market operation contracts and different ways to actually stabilize decentralized stable coins using algorithmic smart contracts and so I think that if there's a stable coin that's able to do it and has been uh championing that since then it's definitely fra and we're here and we're growing we have our own chain now and things are looking great guy I was going to say I think directionally sounds obviously correct but um I think it's actually just a question of scale and size I actually think a Luna could exist today but it just could never exist at the size that it it did at that time and the reason for that was uh really you can think about it as like debt and Equity within a business where in a hypothetical scenario where you have call it like 100 million outstanding of us and let's assume that the government's token for like Luna 2 is at $10 billion the market makers who are basically keeping the peg there have a very strong incentive to basically ensure that that 100 million stays at a dollar if their Equity positions at 10 billion and so at a certain level and size like the crypto system market makers large balance sheets can always step in and defend that Peg if they think it makes sense relative to the equity it's just that the size of Luna got to a stage where not even the biggest balance sheets within crypto could do that um so I agree fully with you at like huge scale it could never work and it's a bad idea uh but as a small like experiment I think it could exist in the back game so on that same topic you know there's been a lot of maybe controversy in the stable coin space recently with maker kind of moving away from their decentralized routes I mean in my view they had not been decentralized for a long time frankly but the N the death Nowell has come recently so maybe back to you Sam like is there a future for a truly decentralized stable coin or does that lens not even make sense anymore for stable coins no I I think there not only is but there has to be a good definition of what a decentralized stable coin is right my view is there's basically two types of stable coins one that are Fiat and cash equivalent and legally redeemable and and regulated and transparent and then the second one is a digital asset that uses smart contracts to stabilize it whether that those smart contracts work in different ways they cdps their fra uh Amo smart contracts new stability mechanisms it doesn't matter but that digital token is not redeemable for cash there's no bank account it's a dow it's a protocol there's no actual cash to redeem the digital token because it is decentralized sure some of those smart contracts they might have M6 whatever this and that but the idea is that it's actually similar to the to the dollar the dollar is not redeemable for gold it's not redeemable for the fed's balance sheet right you can't line up with the Federal Reserve and say hey I have a dollar give me you know 20 o of whatever this and that you used to be able to do it with gold you can't right now anymore right and so the way that I see decentralized stable coins is that they're actually the closest thing to decentralized central bank money right and that's why we call fra in one sentence the decentralized central bank it's not redeemable it's decentralized it's transparent and then there's no bank there's no legal Bank that that that has the cash for it so I think that is the end Vision that has kind of the Bitcoin and ethereum Ethos with stability in mind and and that is the fra Vision Nick or uh guy any view on this is there going to be such thing is a decentralized stable coin uh you know as we've known them historically I think the opportunity for decentralized stable coins is to do things that centralized players can't right so be natively yield bearing uh take on different collateral positions ultimately I think the larger market is centralized stable coins because there's a lot more utility with them you can use them for payments trading keep them in your checking account but I think decentralized stable coins are definitely here to stay and will be you know a meaningful portion of the market probably like 20% maybe a little bit less over the long term um but I think there's always like a room for those types of products uh Jose moving to you uh you know PayPal is obviously an established business business and uh you guys have really aggressively moved into the stable coin space so you could sort of argue that PayPal's existing business was stable coin like in some respects um how does stable coins how does issuing PUSD actually augment the business yeah PayPal has been run for 25 years now and and I would argue on the centralized and non redeemable and non centralized are not the same thing uh and your point to the dollar is is obviously spot on it's non redeemable but it's certainly centralized if we were pitching PayPal 25 years ago in the context of today we would argue that the PayPal balance was a how would we frame it a permission St a stable C in a permission environment right it's basically redeemable you can interact but you require that that is on a that both sides of the transaction have a PayPal account where we think that this is going next the way we think about a stable coins about our stable coin is basically tokenize balance is the B that you had then that you can use to interact outside and the reason we we enter the the space the stable coin was issued about a year ago we've been in crypto for around four years now the reason that we got into digital assets is because we are in payments and and when you run the fundamentals for payments moving money through blockchain protocols is 26 times cheaper than moving them on an a network is 400 times cheaper than moving that through checks so if you believe that and you're in the payment space and you believe that eventually the lowc cost actor wins you cannot afford not to be in that in that space it will take time and we'll talk about how what it's going to take for stable coins to be adopted for payments but the universe likes a low energy estate if you can move money cheaper money will move cheaper so uh staying with you for a second you know I think stable coins are obviously huge success story in crypto we there's 20 million north of that monthly active addresses on all blockchains use a stable coin 120 million addresses have a non-zero balance they settle around $5 trillion a year the numbers are huge they're going up and to the right but also at the same time I would argue a lot of the infrastructure is very immature um to link the Fiat world and stablecoin world and we're just still stitching it together what's your assessment of where we are in the maturity process of stable coins becoming a true global payment system I think we are at the beginning of the first inning so it's it's super super super early it's really difficult we all have seen numbers of the number of monthly active accounts and people take discounts or not even there you're talking about wallets so it's really difficult to translate that to active users when we think about what are the numbers that we care about we don't care much about market cap of stable coins we get a lot about onchain volume we get a lot about monthly active users the problem is that nobody has a number for monthly active users I think that sometimes we look at which stable coins are used or which Protocols are used for stable coin and we extrapolate from the number of active wallets to the number of users and I think that in the future we will still see a ton of people who for convenience are using custodial wallets and I know how many wallets we have and I know how many individual users we have and if we were to extrapolate from that then numbers from some of the reports that you would see would be totally different so it's super super early on the payment space there are FS that we are still lacking we are lacking one of the reasons why we deployed compatibility with enss on our wallets is that we need a frictionless way for people to address payments from one another people are just not going to go pasting wallet addresses to to make payments we need the ability for business to hold stable coins easily and that is more regulatory than a than a technology issue we need integration with earps we need a way to send a value back to customers all those things are not in place yet and that's why somebody in one of the side events of the conference I think was saying yesterday that crypto funded e-commerce is probably around 8 billion I don't know if the number is right or not but it sounds about right in terms of the order of magnitude and that's still a teeny tiny amount of global e-commerce nick uh your view on the extent frictions you know what are the barriers that we have to surmount for stable coins to actually become a globalized payments system I think it depends on where you are um maybe let's just start with usability right today crypto isn't very usable for most people right you have to do multiple clicks interact with the chain think like having seamless user experiences through embedded wallets in a web 2 type mobile app will help that that um in different regions there's not a strong Fiat on and off ramps and liquidity profiles right so you know for example um you know if you wanted to sell a USD which is our stable corn or Pi USD or even usdc or usdt into 20 million of you know pesos you know there's not that much liquidity for it right so that's like a barrier uh on the liquidity side for taking off in FX markets um so I think you know usability you know ease of on and off ramps liquidity these are the main things uh I think regulation will come that's obviously like a I think a near-term barrier but to Jose's point it's not just like 20x plus cheaper it's really like and even 10x better it's like a THX better right if you're moving $10 million or someone like Pepsi that's playing around tens of millions of dollars cross B on a daily basis you're either prefunding accounts using factoring you know forecasting flows now if you want to just send $100 million from Mexico to Singapore you can see oh it's in the men pool it'll be there in 10 seconds like that is a THX better experience it's why I think you know the title of this panel is the Relentless rise of stable coins crypto killer app I think today it is the killer app because it is 100x 1,000x better than moving money cross border and you know servicing em lat dollar demand today uh I think a lot of other things like tokenized fund products will come much later because they require a lot more things to get going but I think a lot the you know the key things are in place now for stable coins to take off they are taking off and we'll just see I think you know us hit like A5 trillion do asset class in the next five plus years I will note that the uh the title of the panel is actually taken from a brevan Howard report uh by Peter Johnson who's not here but it is a great report so definitely read it um so I want to decompose the drivers demand for stable coins into emerging markets and developed markets we just publish a report on emerging market adoption I think that's where we see the most traction for stable coins I think it's very obvious why an ordinary individual would choose digital dollars if they don't have access to dollars at all and the backdrop is an inflationary currency if they don't have access to Dollar banking if they're poorly integrated into the Global Financial system it's very clear why in Emerging Markets you would choose Stables what about in the developed World um what are the prospects for Stables to actually be adopted and what are the types of entities that would choose to adopt Stables as opposed to existing sophisticated Financial rails uh Jose maybe we'll start with you so if you are a consumer mostly who has access to a credit card in a the European Union in North America wasn't it for you for stable coins for mainstream e-commerce truly today not much so the many of the use cases in in the report that you highlighted crypto trading is going to be there access to crypto markets is going to to be there is going to be a relatively the biggest scheme of things are relatively narrow use case definitely I I do think that stable coins will dominate that use case it I don't know that it's going to trickle down to mainstream adoption if you're in the US Cory substitution is not a a use case and you there are there are other options what I think that we will see adoption first in the most developed markets are corporate use cases I think you're going to see that on management you're going to see that on B2B payment you're going to see that and vendor payments for all the things that Nick was saying it's not only that if you need to move $100 million it moves in 10 seconds is that you can settle in a weekend is that that you can get the money moving around instantly one of the biggest supporters of what we are doing on the PayPal side internally at PayPal is our Treasurer imagine that you need to move money around to 160 markets or more and you're getting into that mad rush and Friday at 2 p.m. trying to get treasuring everywhere over the world before the banks shut down that's a very rational conversation and this a place where stable coins are is incredibly easy to have a a conversation with a CFO so I I do think that you will see that first on corporate use cases before you see it in mainstream incomers and I also think trading firms and developed markets are going to be the primary users of these assets for the exact same reasons right okay if you know the market is down over 10% on the weekend because there was some bad action in a foreign country well actually can now move money or shift risk whereas in traditional markets the banks are closed right markets are closed so I think um trading firms are going to be one of the first to to take this uh in developed markets as well Sam yeah so I want to reframe the question a little bit to get to the answer and so if there's one thing anyone from this kind of talk takes away from this is that money and the economy is not Zero Sum and it's actually a positive sum uh Environ it's not like the law of thermodynamics where for energy can't be created or destroyed so someone has to take something from someone else and the important thing about this is everything fra builds is in terms of growing the liquidity and growing the piece of the pie of the entire ecosystem and so for example actually on ethereum mainnet usde Athena and frax is curve pool is the largest liquid curve pool on curve for Athena and and fra and same thing with a USD the Agora and and so the first thing we decide to do is we try to actually go and create opportunities that increase the liquidity for everyone and that I think is very important because my hot take honestly is that in the in the US and in in like mature financial markets they're never going to actually admit to needing to use crypto and us trying to go over to the traditional Financial market and saying hey please please try this thing and stuff is not going to actually work we will have to continue to build the liquidity in our ecosystem and they will eventually have to come to us that's our view at fra and our view is anyone that wants to build with us we're not going to actually like say oh fra is better this and then we're our our our Peg is safer and this and that we're actually going to try to increase the liquidity for anyone that wants to come on chain and work with us because I think that is in the end the most likely way that we're going to actually have traditional players come on the blockchain and actually make use of all that liquidity yeah I think Sam's Point is right is like people try to group together Stables as like one similar asset but this is positive sum there's a lot of different types of stable coin products that can actually be quite synergistic like you we work with the fra team so does ethena um and so I actually think you know people need to do a better job of defining what kind of stable coin are we talking about is is it you know a fully Fiat back stable that's probably going to be used for trading payments and as digital cash or is it a different type of product that can appeal to maybe um user you know trading firms that want to use it as collateral like primarily like Athena like there's a lot of different use cases but I think this in uh industry can also be positive some and many of us can work together with one another and then I think a lot of traditional Market participants will come in and say okay uh it's time to time to play ball so I want to turn to something you said Nick actually about settlement on the weekend so it's one of the frictions one of the issues in this space is that stable coins are 247365 well any crypto is dollars are banking hours which there's more not banking hours than there are banking hours um if you want to settle the Fiat lag of a trade in or out of stable coins that only works during banking hours in the past we had sen and sigut that were kind of bank settlement interbank settlement or rather intra bank settlement systems that helped with stable coin liquidity outside of those banking hours now we don't have those things so actually I'm just genuinely curious I don't know the answer to this question I know you not meant to ask a question you don't know the answer to but are there systems in place now to facilitate dollar liquidity for stable coin insurers facing redemptions on the weekend yes yeah so there's a few US banks that still have a 24/7 payment Network there's also some that are now popping up in Asia that we're actually planning to work with uh one of them is going to go live next month and I was in their office earlier today so uh there's those types of rails right where it's like a 247 payment Bank where you can settle over the weekend uh but there's also other things you can do right you know uh like have maybe something you know oh we only redeem in another stable over the weekend uh if you think you can get better cash there or you just go to a market maker and say hey provide me credit over the weekend for $5 million and like they'll charge you you know five bips 10 bips a day or whatever it is um but there are ways to do it over the weekend today and there's also of course other means to to go about it so this isn't like a huge problem then it's definitely a huge problem but you have to solve it right it's something that we spend a lot of time focus on um because it is one of the biggest risks to the business right um so it's solvable but it is challenging and many banks don't accept crypto related customers or even new customers um part of that's because of uh the choke point operation which you know I know you like to heavily um detail which is very much real um and like that's one of our unique advantages is that we work with some of the largest banks um because you know they actually you know have a relationship with us and you know vex's larger business um over time right and so they're like okay sure we'll work with you but in many cases uh you don't have Banks willing to work with crypto companies at all much less uh you know the the few that work with the 24/7 payment rails um I want to change the topic a little bit um talk about corporate adoption of stable coins uh you this is something we've seen in our business you know we talked to a lot of these firms that are on the frontier and they increasingly report to us that there's sort of non- crypto businesses that are now using stable coins for ordinary transactions and I'll I'll open this up to the whole panel why would you as a CFO of midsize business whether here or you know maybe a market with a less integrated Financial system why would you prefer stable coins to the typical transactional rails because there's no Financial infrastructure in the jurisdiction that you're operating right so uh this is a real anecdote we were introduced to a commodity business that is based out of uh Western jurisdiction they have uh oil and Mining operations in West Africa there's nowhere for them to keep dollars in in the banks there or they don't trust them and so they'd much rather use uh stable coins that have Lindy and are basically money right I would say like what we're trying to do is become money and centralized money it's the same with fracks and decentralized money um and so there's a lot of you know real world businesses that have access to very legitimate Banks but are operating in jurisdictions where the financial services infrastructure isn't there or isn't something they feel comfortable with and so they'd much rather hold a stable coin that's in their own self- custodi wallet and use that to interact with local contractors um or local governments even so I'm going to bring back the spicy take again and say in the west it's not going to happen super quick because trafi is is going to be like why would I use this why do I need this there's there's trusted Banks and all this stuff but if you actually just close your eyes and think in 10 years what the world will look like if we're right about our thesis that everyone will be using stable coins eventually they will have to come graling in this direction rather than us in in the other direction and so my view and I know it's a spicy take on thisit stage is that I don't even worry about how or why they would want to use stable coins because I don't even see it as my or our industry's job to educate them on it because they will have to go with the tide eventually or be left behind and so I know that's a a little bit of a spicy take but so far it looks like it's actually correct because everyone prefers the settlement 247 365 of stable coins the ability to custody and and have no other custodial trust and it just seems like objectively if you understand the stuff this is the way that history is going and the only question is what is the path dependence the the actual path to actually in 10 years everyone getting paid in stable coins on Shain earning yield and making payments and payment apps using stable coins right that's the only question is how how will it look not will it look in in that way and so since I'm so confident and we're so confident about that at FRA the thing we're really just focused on is making sure that everyone else that's building towards that decade long future is set up to work together in positive sum with the best successful outcome possible yeah I think the two points you touched on there instant settlements obvious as a as a benefit there but then the other ones around counterparty risk as well so I think anytime you're layering intered within the real world you're obviously adding counterparty risk at every level when you're doing that and essentially when you're using stable coin you're collapsing that to a surface area which is essentially just the issuer who's sitting on the other side whether it's usdc or one of these guys um I do think one piece to consider here is also uh you tend to see a bit of inertia with businesses when you have something that's fundamentally competitive to your own business model that exists now right so the business model of a stable coin that's being transferred on train looks very different to a payment system that's charging somewhere between 150 to 300 BBS on every transaction of the entire internet right um and so I think there is a real question of if the entire world is transacting with just stable coins at Subs transactions on chain that's an amazing outcome for for users and consumers who who clearly benefit from those cost savings but then there's an enormous amount of equity value destruction in the real world that occurs when when that sort of version of the world exists and so I think naturally there's going to be a push back between transitions from where we are today to that sort of uh situation I describe now yeah Jose what we are hearing from our Enterprise clients is reparation of funds similar to what you were saying and treasury management interestingly what we are hearing about our smbs is not what we were expecting to hear we thought we were expecting to hear us SBS who want to pay a way to pay suppliers outside the US instantly and not lose their money for five days in the wi transfer ER Labyrinth we seeing that what we didn't we were not expecting is actually folks outside the US smaller companies outside the US who need to play suppliers in the US and they lack access to hard currency in their markets in many of the international markets today is actually easier to get a hold of USD denominated the stable coin that it is to get access to hard currency and I think that's what it's going to be is going to drive some of the folks in the US to integrate into erps and start accepting stable comp fams so we we were having a little argument before the panel about uh crypto dollarization which is a madeup term but uh you know I think you guess what it means so my one of my big thesis for the next decade ahead is stable coins are a more frictionless way for individuals to spontaneously engage in currency substitution mostly into the dollar is what we've seen and we haven't seen a full-fledged dollarization event with stable coins yet you could say there've been some portions of certain Nations or economies that have dollarized maybe with stable coins probably Venezuela and Argentina would be the the two to call out and then Nigeria seems to have a significant affinity for stable coins what's your view on this do you think governments will be able to successfully inhibit this or are you know blockchain wallets and blockchain infrastructure is it's so hard to crack down on that you'll see this happen regardless I think that proxy to liken stable coin adoption with USD stable coin adoption I I do think that currency is going to migrate to digital CH to digital rails and I do think that we will see a non USD denominated stable coins popping up in different countries I don't think that countries will get dollarized over a stable coin I think that dollarization by itself is something that doesn't really happen uh it might happen to some degree it might happen to a small percentage but I think there's a regulatory aspect of it in which countries will not relinquish their their sovereignty over their own currency and over their own monetary policy so I don't think we will see that I might be wrong but I don't think it will be it will happen uh what I do believe is that the Reas one of the reasons why you only see USD denominated stable coins today is because the use cases today are mostly for USD denominated flows crypto markets are mostly denominated against USD Emerging Markets want to be able to hold dollariz Savings in some way and that that's a USD aspect when you get into some of the more mainstream uh parts of the economy and when you get into some of those CR crossb flows that are monetized through FX if both sides of the transaction are USD forever there is no FX to be monetized so you're going to find more resistance from the traditional operators to move digital if the FX spread just vanishes in Into Thin Air yeah it's actually an interesting point I mean stable coins been 99% dollarized for basically the whole existence actually I've ran the numbers recently and I ran them four years ago and they're more dollarized than they were it's incredible I mean I would have thought the Euro would have been somewhere it's nowhere what's going on so my view on this is in order to answer it you kind of have to look at why the dollar itself is useful why do other countries or users and and people want to save in it the way that I like to say it is the dollar does actually have a peg it's CPI the Consumer Price Index which is Peg to a stand standard of living and the most credible entity in the world that can make that Peg commitment is the US government right the largest economy in the world and inflation is just another word for saying how off the peg is right if there's 10% inflation and and the dollar if it was a stable coin it'd be like 90 cents right that means it's off Peg by that much against the Consumer Price Index and the reason I think of it in that way is people want access to a certain object that actually keeps their standard of living the same and actually you made a really good point that a lot of these things are dollar denominated flows but the underlying reason of why are they dollar denominated flows is that there needs to be some anchor or some price to something that people can keep stable to a standard of living right and so other people know that other currencies clearly other National currencies that inflate more or don't work as well or have smaller economies that can't make that kind of commitment actually aren't as safe so that's part of the main reason at least we think it fracks why the dollar is so important and if people in the audience have heard uh bgy talk and he spoke earlier today there's a concept that actually him and I came up with called the flat coin which is actually a stable coin unit that's pegged directly to CPI without a national uh index like a national unit like USD or Euro my guess and my take is in the next 10 years that will actually increase in in market cap against the dollar not other National currencies because the dollar is so good at doing what it does the only thing that can compete against this is a flat coin and and fra does have an experimental version of it but the idea is that that will be in the next 10 years one of the most predominant sectors of stable coin research I also think right the US dollar is the largest vehicle for global trade something that we chatted about earlier is most people don't use you know stable coins within the United States because it's relatively easy to move money within the US the same is true for the Euro Zone you know the euro is the second you know largest uh currency used in trade it's pretty easy to move money within the Euro Zone and so if you don't have the crossb Commerce poll and the money poll that Sam was just talking about today it's it's not really there's no really need for a Euro or JPY stable I think they'll start to come into the market is when you really start to have FX trade in different stable coins and they'll be a very you know much smaller portion of the market than they even are of the trade bound cuz I think they'll purely be used in FX markets just for for settlement purposes um cuz most people just want to hold dollars so I want to ask one last question before our lightning round which is another kind of dollarization which is dollarization of blockchains so if you look at the data stable coins settle about half the value that get settled on blockchains the other half is obviously the native crypto assets right in the past it's been as high as 70% so you know and in back in 2018 it was basically 0% was you know stable coin settlement blockchains themselves have become dollarized is this eliminating the usage of you know Bitcoin ether as that Medium of exchange the collateral type are stable coins too successful are they cannibalizing the usage of the original blockchain tokens for thee UA you know unit of account store for Value use cases is that something we should actually worry about is going of stable coining parasitic on blockchains I think it depends which Block Chain you're talking about so uh Bitcoin and eth are very different in that regard where the growth of stable coins can actually drive value to ethereum because uh ethereum through Mev and all the activity that's sitting on top of it can actually capture a return from transfers trading and the storage of dollars on it bitcoin's obviously not the same I don't necessarily see that as a threat or like an issue where I think the story for Bitcoin is sort of you know found a more narrow use case of a store value through time and that Medium of exchange has sort of dropped away but I do think it is worth just considering that uh the growth of stable coins is kind of actually the most valuable thing that ethereum is providing right now which is you've only really got two real use cases of blockchains at scale which is trading and it's using dollars in there and it's a storage of stable coins for for a store value and so um if stable coins didn't exist I think eth wouldn't be worth much at all um and part of the value is should derive by the growth and success of stable coins but I mean then e should be concerned that more stable coin settlement happens on Tron sure yeah which is the case today believe it or not um anybody else on this question yeah I like I like to refer to myself is the world's first self-proclaimed stable coin maximalist so you probably know the answer of what I'm about to say but my point is I think that this is 100% going to be the case that stable coins are going to increase in in usage and settlement however that doesn't make them a good investment asset for store value purposes right and so that's why everything here there's like a second token that's a staking token for the fra ecosystem for Athena there's a governance token staking token there's ethereum and Bitcoin that are investment store of value assets and I think that everything will be settled in stable coins because that's the unit that again anchors to a standard of living but you would actually be never getting any wealthier if you actually kept your investments in in those units right so there's totally different use cases agree I I don't think at all that the stable coins are parasitic to blockchains I think that analogy is moving from bartering to money based trading it's not if you if you have an opinion on one crypto asset going up or down on value in many cases you want to have a neutral asset to park the value there is not necessarily that you barter between Bitcoin and eth because those things might be moving in the same direction so I do think that having a neutral asset in between actually has its trading and you definitely we are seeing more volume on our trading side since we enable stable points yeah yeah I don't have much to add the only thing I'll say is like again it's like if you want a different product you should buy it right like people ask us oh how do you compete with like a yield bearing stable coin it's like well if they want a yield product they should buy the yield product right so I think yeah stable coins will be the the means of settlement but they won't be the be all end all okay quick lighting round we have minute 45 here so be quick stable coin market cap in 5 years pop stable coin in 5 years maybe it's one that doesn't exist today tether market share in 5 years it's 70% today guy uh somewhere between 3 to 500 billion I think is like a reasonable guess for me in the next 5 years I think this top top stable coin will be tether and that continues to be the case and their Market Shar is B are going to be exactly the same I think the reason for that is that a lot of the new entrance that are coming to Market whether it's Nick and and the other guys on the panel they're they're fundamentally sort of attacking usdc use case within the market market and that to me feels like the more open uh space for new entrance to come in and attack so I think tether's dominance is going to continue compounding into the future Sam tether market cap in 5 years in 2029 I'd say over 1.1 trillion uh it's a fra hopefully number three Rank and uh I think that there will be a multi-trillion dollar stable coin industry total market cap we've been betting more than 1 trillion number one stable coin for Commerce and payments is us for trading I don't really care uh but for we are very focus on the Commerce and payments Side market share I don't think that anything that is more than 25% of share for any given issue is healthy for the ecosystem I think that we need more options NE I think it'll be three trillion in 5 years uh I think tether will be the largest I think their market share will reduce from 70% to probably 40% today so I think there's a large chunk of tether holders that will only ever hold tether but I also think there's a large proportion that'll hold other assets so I think they'll shrink um and then you beyond tether I think will be the largest institutional grade stable I think Circle fall to probably like three or four all right well that's it Round of Applause for our panelist thank you so much