welcome to neuron noodles neuro feedback and neuros pychology podcast featuring Tech Legend Jak gunkelman he's the man who has read well over a half a million brain scans and Dr Marie swingle author of ey Minds our goal is provide information and promote options for better mental health the neuron noodle podcast is supported by listeners and businesses just like you good morning Pete than long time no see my friend there what your shortterm memory then huh no anything anything spark your interest from uh yesterday well you know the the whole ADD ADHD uh issue ends up being I I think one that people could stand a bit of a dive into um and um you know the efficacy uh question is also accompanied by clinical utility those two go together as Concepts and um uh we have to keep that in mind as well but uh uh um I I I think that the uh ad ADHD uh circumstance Des deserves a little attention and okay um the to start with uh people think of it typically as uh slow content up front uh but in fact you can end up having individuals that have spindling excess beta up front what add is is the frontal lobes attentional and aect of regulatory control is not there as an executive level control and whether it's Disturbed with alpha or Theta or beta uh it's not working properly so you get the same symtom you know the DSM symptom based stuff might point to the area of the brain that's not working but you have no idea what failure mode it's in you need to look at the EG to end up seeing what's wrong with the executive control over attention and you can see these little tiny fast sinusoidal uh beta spindles and they're uh they're they're problematic um uh when we pick one here and I'm going to slide it over to the side here it's the size of that beta is about the size of that blue cell and that 20 microvolts that that that hits the limit of how big it can get but I doubt that it's the biggest that there is in this EEG we just got things rolling and as we go through uh the the problem with this particular uh uh person is spindling X beta frontally but that's only one subset and uh you can end up having an individual that has a complex mixture and so as you can see this has rhythmic slower activity in it frontally this is a Theta frequency but when you look at this more clearly it's a mixture of beta and Theta and Barkley's co-researcher back in the day split from him and she works basically at UCLA UCLA's semil research in the Psychiatry department and they did a nice paper showing that in ADD ADHD if you have frontal Theta you need methylphenidate but if you have beta spindles you need guanosine and if you have both of those patterns you need both of those medications and it's a very well done paper but you expect that I mean it's an academic paper it's not somebody selling something uh and uh and and you know well enough sized statistical power uh controls you all the stuff you expect from a an academic uh Research Center so um this one would end up having a combo of because there's tonic Theta is present as a tone up front there's a different kind of theta that's actually good brain function that you occasionally will run into and that's phasic Theta frontal midline Theta now this has Theta at the frontal midline but it's not frontal midline Theta frontal midline Theta is a brief burst of theta it's it can be elicited with memory tasks uh and it's uh less than 1 second long as a burst and it's well researched in the literature it corresponds with Superior memory performance but it's also uh uh something that corresponds with uh the antithesis of worrying and fear so uh it's it's got neuros pychological correlat as well anyway the Theta pattern here is tonic so this has Theta and beta in it and as such uh it's um it's another uh kind that you may run into this one is an add ADH kid who happened to also have ticks tourettes and he had some vocalizations you'll see in the temporal area here a spike uh Spike and slow wave and uh you say well how do you know it's it's real well it's it's something called field and phase you can see the same Little Wave here that you see here sky in the background accompanying us here sky so this Spike will Rec recur again and again through the recording and we simply uh recommended that they give him an empirical trial on lamal at low to moderate dose and and the ticks went away uh and the parents uh got really concerned because it's an anti-convulsant and uh they you know they were concerned uh uh that this could be epilepsy or something and what we suggested is that uh uh the the spike represented the temporal aspect of the discharge in Tourette's Tourette's is the cadate the head of the cadate for motor ticks but the tail of the cadate hooks into the temporal lobe it h merges with this triot terminalis and hooks into the amigdala hippocampus in the temperal lobe so the limic speech of uh Tourette's or eolia of tourettes are simply the tail of the cadate causing a discharge and that's all we're seeing now it it's not going to be causing seizures as such uh but the the the ticks are tourettes so we're not trying to change the diagnosis we're simply trying to get it treated properly and uh an anac convulsant stopped the ticks so they went to UC San Francisco to the neurology department and U they did their own AG which I would expect them to do and they found no spikes but he was on Lal which suppressed the spikes effectively and they said well it's a very low dose which we were intending it to be we're not trying to stop seizures we're trying to uh stabilize the EG a little bit and that this discharge uh uh basically U is not a seizure it's representative of the uh Tourette uh vocalization so um the they stopped the meds on the suggestion from the neurology department over there although it was not their medication to change uh so it was actually a professional error on their part and the tick came back which now really concerned the parents and they wanted to speak to me I I said okay if we get the neurologist and their EG and me and our EG and the psychiatrist that's prescribing and and the parents all in one meeeting at one time uh then then we can discuss it you know you don't want to have everything triangulated it out you want to have have everybody in the room J when you hear Tourette's you think of swearing it's more than that can you just get what are some of the symptoms Tourette's is is essentially uh uh all the way from a simple motor tick uh a little twitch uh that's an involuntary uh tick sometimes a a little facial Grimace or uh tick or a peripheral tick somewhere in the body that that's the head of the CATE which is involved in attentional regulation as well uh frontal lobe to the head of the cod8 putam Globus padus Thalamus back up to the motor strip is frontal motor inhibition and if the CATE has a discharge you end up having a motor tick from that circuit and and that's a simple motor tick from the head of the cadate the tail of the CATE gets much more complex if the discharge kicks the temporal Lo limic structures the amydala is an emotional processor and you'll you'll end up blurting out from the left hemisphere uh emotionally Laden words quite often pretty intensely emotional Laden words uh that that would make us say blush you know so um uh or right temporal it may be animal sounds um uh a growling um but the not words but sounds and if it's the hippocampus which is a memory processor you get echolalia or parting so the uh somebody says something you say it right back at them oh I had four younger sisters and they used to play that game it would drive people crazy but uh this is not a voluntary thing it's an involuntary thing it's an involuntary thing it's an involuntary thing you know you an involuntary thing yeah exactly so uh uh the the the discharges in the talob get a lot more complex um so uh but that's usually where we would see it the frontal ones we normally don't see the spikes up front uh that uh they're uh the the cod8 is a monopole it doesn't create discharges outside of it uh it it when it discharges the the vectors cancel within it so uh we don't see it but we see the tail of the CATE kick the hippocampus and amydala because of the paroc cample cortex which reflects the limic structures function and we see the spikes coming off of that so um the the the neurologist had to agree that um uh we saw spikes on ours and he didn't see spikes on his but the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence uh so the absence of uh anything in the record didn't prove anything and the presence of the one in ours uh basically was a confirmatory of the problem and the evidence of his response to the lowd do Lal was that lowd do Lal was an effective treatment for this person individually so personalized medicine evidence-based medicine you treat this Tourette person's uh uh brain with an anticonvulsant you don't just try to control it somehow behaviorally um but uh this is a discharge and this the spike is not uh uncommon in ADD ADHD a third of the people that have ADHD have spikes they don't have seizures they have spikes they may not involve the motor strip they may be frontal or temporal or sensory integration parietal uh but uh they're they're not diagnosed as epileptic but we want them treated effectively with an anticonvulsant uh we actually have a publication showing 85% positive Improvement psychiatrically for individuals that are given an anti-convulsant uh when their EG has spikes in it uh when they have no history of seizures and classically the neurologist would not give them any anti-convulsant because they're not having seizures uh you show them this EEG with this Spike and uh they'll they basically will say well uh we don't treat the EG we treat the patient and the patient's not having seizures so we're not going to give them these dangerous anti-convulsants yeah well uh 85% positive outcome J question with the neurologist um do they read the e G like you do the reason I'm ask no is there a there's no standard way that you have learned or people in our field have learned how to read the EEG but how do neuro neurologists look at an EEG yeah they they they look at it in in a a fairly limited way they're not looking at it neuros psychiatrically at all uh they're looking at it for evidence of epilepsy evidence of some specific and apathy a focal slow wave confirmation of a stroke but they for strokes they look at it with imaging they don't look at it with eg and uh you know seizures that that's the primary thing that it's used for in hospital settings in fact I've had uh people who wanted an EG to to identify uh gastrointestinal problems associated with the insula and the the uh Kaiser basically refused to order the EEG saying it's only good for epilepsy you know so uh and and for that hospital that's probably all it would be good for um uh the the view of the EEG as uh something that can give you guidance for Neuropsychiatric uh evaluation and uh guidance for uh uh therapy uh basically isn't looking to use it diagnostically which is the whole thing with Neurology there you know medical diagnosis uh we're using it prognostically as to how to treat and it gives great guidance on how to treat independent of the DSM uh you can end up getting good guidance information for what the brain needs the DSM is based on Behavior it has nothing to do with specific findings in the EEG it might point to an area of the brain that might not be working it won't tell you how it's not working so epileptiform discharges beta spindles slow content fast content Alpha content they don't know what they're going to find in the EG the benefit is when I look at the EG I can see the problem I know what the neuropsychological function of this are area is and I can suggest how this is going to represent itself and at that point reading with only the age as the information I I describe the client and their behavior and it works really really well I've been doing that for well over a decade uh my my lectures internationally were largely me walking in them giving me a handful of EGS never seen before process them live in front of people knowing only the age and tell them what the client looks like and how to treat them and uh after they see six of those done in a row they know you can reverse engineer it uh come out with the the client's presentation or do it more like is normally done you know the client or their presentation because they were referred to you and then you read the EG and match up the symptoms with the findings in the EEG but again for neurology is pretty limited uh uh Psychiatry is usually forced to go back through neurology residency to get an electrography uh U credential uh but that's to kind of get them to think about it in neurology terms and not uh look at it psychiatrically it's a shame um but it um psychiatria is traditionally not looked at the EG uh they they it's symptom-based diagnosis unfortunately and and it's they agree it's not valid yeah it's highly reliable but has no predictive validity anyway this person has uh uh vocalizations and um they went away um with low do Lal they came back when the neurologist told them that the liml was too low a dose to be effective and uh that there was no spike in their EG uh they the uh the ticks came back um we we made a big consultation and the neurologist agreed the evidence-based medicine um that the the ticks were effectively treated with a Lal and the spikes that we see in R are real he would have called them a Spike as well and and uh uh the neurologist again because the patient was not having convulsions may not have ever prescribed um uh an anti- convulsant for the client uh Psychiatry uses uh anticonvulsants as a stabilizing agent uh it's not uncommon for them to use them like an anticho um and onethird of The Psychotic patients have epilep form content you should treat them with an anti-convulsant not an anti-yo because the anticho actually makes their discharges worse anyway for for add we've got um brain Futures in [Music] 2022 piece together uh a brief which was intended basically uh uh to be presented in argument for uh the approval uh of an insurance panel for the use of neur feedback Martine Arns uh David caner myself uh um Donna Jackson U and she wrote the angels and assassin book um Fred schaer from bcia and uh Mark who was kind of wrangled the the the group together to get this done and um uh they they basically go through an executive summary uh they do a very nice introduction to the uh concept of uh efficacy uh they uh they actually present uh data and the go through the the evidence-based uh uh support for the ADD ADHD um a broader range of health conditions anyway this this this document is I think really quite uh useful uh and uh uh again the the group that uh puts it out or brain brain Futures and you can find this online and uh download it U they've got ones uh this is a more General one they've got one the whole thing specifically is for add anyway uh I would suggest uh that uh people that have uh the the the parent who wants the evidence and they heard Barkley doesn't support it or something um you know uh science is uh not uh it's evidence-based not Authority based so uh uh you know bar Barkley's got to show first of all independence from uh the the Pharma uh which he can't I mean he's been supported by Rin and methylphenidate for decades uh the early days of Chad uh uh methylphenidate riddle and as a brand actually paid uh uh doctors to travel around and and do talks at the Chad meetings uh the uh the the basically family group for add families and um if the person in the group started to talk about neuro feedback or ask questions about it they were basically thrown out of the group so it was a it was a you know a Pharma driven uh parent group and uh uh uh Chad has kind of broken away from being quite that dependent uh but it it's still largely a Pharma oriented uh organization anyway uh um uh the the the list this is a paper I did uh which is a sole author paper it was not uh done with co-authors um and uh this was from 2014 so it's uh becoming uh uh dated uh they want you to quote something that's within the last 10 years or something so this is starting to get to be old um uh we this is the correlation part partial correlation between profusion with Hyper profusion which is the profusion of the brain's burning of uh glucose and oxygen uh so hyper profusion of the brain busy burning and hypo profusion the brain's at rest not burning uh Delta is actually a positive profusion but that's you know your brain at night when you're asleep is busy doing stuff uh you're not awake uh but it it's still busy uh the Theta and Alpha band up to about 11 Hertz our hypo profusion at about 11 Hertz you get the neut positive profusion of the SMR frequency range the low frequencies of data some of these are considered compensatory rhythms and then at about 16 Hertz it takes off into hyper profusion this is link ears link ears is not really a good montage for evaluating local function these are both llan techniques so we uh we basically utilize um uh uh this information so that when we see different brain frequencies we can assume how busy or idled the cortex is so you you understand the level of function in an area um uh the frontal lobe uh this is a Mac monkey brain but area 4S is the just in front of the motor Strip This is the supplementary or Supra motor area that controls the motor strip and this is the supplementary super motor area you'd think control for the motor strip would be just be some direct connection the front connected directly to the motor strip it's easy right there but to to connect they go down to the cadate again associated with the tets paman Globus palatus Thalamus and then up to the motor Strip This circuit has a net excess of one Gaba which is an inhibitory neurotransmitter so the frontal lobe inhibits the motor strip with this circuit if the singulate becomes involved with the basil ganglia it adds a sub subthalamus Thalamus one extra Gaba and it becomes a preservative the frontal lobe command stop becomes stop stopping if the singul involved and that's kind of how you get obsessive compulsive so uh this is the circuit involved in it and actually the the you know cadate putam Globus palatus Thalamus are all fairly contiguous it's not like the diagram jumping all over the place the ADD ADHD group there's over 400 kids here sorted into groups that are similar uh about half of them end up having Theta in excess and some of those Theta access have beta access too some of them about a third of them have Alpha nxs some of them have beta nxs too some of them are just beta and here's some you know pure Theta ones again so the original paper was from uh Gordon serfontaine from Australia who's passed many years ago now and Bob shabbo Robert shabo from NYU and their their conclusion was add you know Theta gets stimulants and the alpha gets anti-depressants and uh uh they they didn't really talk about the normal Group which at rest they looked normal but if you put them on a task they usually light up and and show the add here's the head of the cod8 here's the tail of the cod8 merging with this drer manalis this is the amydala and hippocampus so uh the uh the discharge in the head is again that motor circuit you saw the head of the CATE was part of that circuit and here the tail of the cod8 hooks into the igdal hippocampus um here's a normal person that's been given a task to hit the button when he sees something that tells them to hit the button the go condition in a go no-o task and this is is a joint time frequency analysis and this is 1 second of data and you can see the beta spindle starts about a half a second in now uh uh libbit uh uh in at UC San Francisco in the late 70s showed that it takes about a half a second to be consciously aware of something so this the ghost signal was presented about a half a second later the beta lights up now his reaction time is about 120 milliseconds so if you add 500 and another 120 you get his reaction time where he hit the button here now the high functioning add hits the button later and the low functioning add even later and they have less and less of this beta that's induced by the the task they also have left gamma the gamma here is bursts of gamma nested in data uh the there's six bursts there but they're very weak this person missing some of the nested uh gamma so uh add isn't just a real simple thing you can actually test it um and and show uh significant functional differences and some of the things that you need to train may be some of this beta but then there are some people that have excess beta so you've got to be uh aware not everybody gets beta training if you do beta training here's a baseline condition you train beta it goes up rest up rest up rest up rest up rest you can see you can train the beta but this is magnitude not the size of the beta because the beta doesn't get really big they're just more packets of it per unit time so the magnet ude goes up the amplitude of the beta I mean 1/ f beta is always going to be small uh but you can make more of it so uh this this basically shows the the the increase in beta density uh when uh you're training it up uh in an effective training mechanism here's beta spindles that are pathology they're large sinusoidal beta beta was originally described in the the early 1930s by Gibbs and Gibbs Fred and Erna Gibbs um they discovered epilepsy could be seen in the EEG in the 19 early 1930s right after they translated burger from the German and uh at lennox's Lab at Harvard uh they they got married and moved to Chicago their whole career was based on epilepsy and EEG but they they describe beta spindles uh these are F2 beta spindles I think F nothing fancy I think f is just for Fred so uh but beta spindles up front in the EEG uh this is the kind of a finding you'd sign you'd find in the ad ADHD uh kids um this is a list of meds that you may find effectively treating one child here or there that might have ADD ADHD and rlin was one of the first it's a it's a methylphenidate it's a dopamine reuptake inhibitor if you have Theta in the EG it works really well um vians and adderal speed up Alpha so if you have slow Alpha that that may end up being the med that would help uh stratera is like uh an amphetamine but it's a reuptake inhibitor for nor not an Agonist so it's more gentle as a stimulant some sometimes they claim not to be a stimulant because that are they're not an Agonist but they hold the norepinephrine around and they has a stimulating effect so yeah more more uh no difference uh proval is is given on rare occasion uh but it's it's appropriate for for the people that have a primary disorder of vigilance normally diagnosed at a sleep lab uh we can see it in our EG recordings when you do eyes closed the visuals model can end up identifying uh people that have primary disorders of vigilance with labile vigilance regulation um you can have beta spindles in the EG we just showed some guanosine and clodine are actually originally blood pressure medications they reduce peripheral and Central neopine phrine so they reduce beta in the EG but they also drop drop blood pressure a bit so uh that you can't jack up the dose if some of this makes some things better you can't necessarily give a higher dose without negatively influencing blood pressure so for a more potent effect uh for beta spindles you can use Gabapentin which is an anti-convulsant uh but it's an ancillary anti-convulsant it's used for a lot of other things peripheral nerve pain as an example and it cuts down on beta more potently uh than uh the the channel blockers uh lamal is an anticonvulsant Depot and anticonvulsant um really big beta with transient discharges is in the EEG you need something to stabilize now the phenotype model does not differentiate paroxysms and diagnostically specific Spike discharges if you've got an instability you need to be stabilized with an antic combulsiones an antimanic compound some people give this to reduce the beta uh it does potentiate transience so you have to be cautious uh if the G's got instabilities this can make them worse um uh oxytocin's a hormone that assists in Social bonding and it's given uh for people that have big me in the EEG it reduces Mew and mu is a miror neuron disconnect so you're more connected to the outside world and oxytocin is used um again for some it's a good effect um the anti- depressants um obviously uh the the group that had Alpha up front is uh going to end up with uh consideration here an SSRI is good if you've got regular alpha 8 n maybe even N9 and a half 10 uh if you have slow Alpha 78 you need an snri with a nephrine reup take an AIT portion of it to speed up the Alpha and the serotonin to reduce it frontally if the alpha is faster than 10 and 1 12 11 you need to go with a tetracyclic uh it it will slow the alpha slightly it's given at night uh quite often reduces beta spindling at the same time and helps with insomnia it's an anxiolytic during the day there are people that are given an anti- uh an antipsychotic like uh respiron respirol and uh that's usually because of uh self harm Behavior or extremely aggressive acting out uh uh fits of laughter fits of Rage um that that sort of thing uh sometimes you're you look psychiatrically Disturbed enough to get an antipsychotic if you're acting out is in fact psychosis uh this may be appropriate but if the EG has got instabilities they're going to be potentiated by it and uh anti- psychotics do potentiate discharges in the EG rather potently and you need to be very cautious um with the prescription of that um if the EG is unstable the thing is the psychiatrists that are treating ADD ADHD don't necessarily look at the EG which would indicate specifically which ones of these might work for their individual client um they try one and then try another then try another so it it it's a a trial and unfortunately potentially error and the if you try something and it doesn't work you think well just stop it and try something else but there's quite often withdrawal issues with some of these uh stimulus withdrawing you can have a rebound hyper excitability um uh excuse me rebound uh collapse sedation um with the pulling of the ssris you can have a serotonin withdrawal uh if you stop an anti-convulsant you can have a rebound hyper excitability so uh the trial and error is not without consequence it is the classic medication selection approach you know Martin Arns uh showed a video at one of his workshops I thought was really quite striking a gentleman walks up to a counter across the counter is a woman in a white lab coat and he hands her uh piece of paper obviously a prescription and the camera pans back and below the counter there's a gigantic Container full of bottles of different kinds of medications she reaches down swirls them around and pulls out one and hands it to him and he looks at her like what uh and you know the it's not unlike how medications are prescribed oh you have this diagnosis well let's see what we might find that might work with that diagnosis here try this so um and when I saw that it you know well I I laugh a lot anyway but I just howled that that was it was too good you know um and it it it it really you know it's a an accurate representation of the trial and error and uh when you think about it who would put up with that as a method I mean it it's it's it's crazy pin the tail on a donkey yeah at least there you might know the direction of the wall you know uh um so if you look before you make a guess and the one of these may be perfectly appropriate for a given case but you won't don't know uh unless you actually look at the EG and the patient and make a match with the proper medication for their circumstance and uh the the frontal Theta uh frontal Alpha at what frequency uh frontal beta uh uh uh the the discharge presence of discharges or not uh th those features basically end up sorting between these quite effectively and saves you the time and your client the trouble uh of a mismatch so um but you know uh this was just presented to about a 100 psychiatrists and it was translated um internationally and uh the so it's it it's been being taught now uh uh um but it doesn't uh it doesn't necessarily penetrate clinical practice just because it's being taught now you know uh it takes time you know if everybody came out of med school with the proper knowledge of uh of of EG diagnostic uh d prognostically uh picking meds and assisting with therapeutic selection and so forth um they' they'd be coming out as Junior Partners in in a in an or big organization cuz medication medicine's not practiced in small offices pretty much anymore so it it would take maybe five six years for them to become higher up in the hierarchy so that they could actually do something that they wanted to do and U so it it takes time uh there's a huge inertia in the in organizational structure and um unfortunately uh Pharma that that sells the meds doesn't necessarily teach how to pick them using EEG it uh it may change you never know Jay I love it any update and IM medicin how how are the Koreans doing well they this talk was uh sponsored by the Korean group and they they uh invited kro edalati a psychiatrist up in Vancouver and myself to do a two-hour talk uh to uh International group of psychiatrists uh on uh a ADD ADHD and uh pharmacology and um so this is this is basically the the guts of my portion of the talk now uh there was a a beginning of the talk that talked all about the history of ADD ADHD across the years uh medications um you know the uh various uh uh how do you diagnose it uh all the all the details of of that end of it had to be handled by somebody who's a psychiatrist so all that was handled by kro I did some of the EG stuff and I did the this discussion of meds and matching the meds to the to the EG methylate dopamine reuptake inhibitor so if you have uh fronto Central Theta that's a dopamine reup dopamine insufficiency marker now you've got a match amphetamines and and Alpha frequency stratera provigil the you know uh the this was the the the detailed talk going to the psychiatrist talking specifically about uh each Med and their biomarker and you know we we'll see uh they they got the uh the hand out and um uh and I think that the talk is still available if you contacted iyn I think they'd be more than happy to provide people the two-hour recording I you know that I've worked with them for over a decade and uh as I say that they got all my bad advice for free so [Laughter] uh and that's the same way I've treated any company I've consulted with they get my bad advice for free so Jake unclean that was that was an awesome uh screens share thank you so much man well we ran through a little bit of stuff and geez we ate up quite a bit of the hour we we we did and remind everybody if you're watching this and you have some questions what's going on we have a pretty nifty Q&A every Wednesday 6:00 p.m central time um 400m uh Pacific you can see I'm in my my best dress outstanding I got this t-shirt from the BFE on the back of it this is by feedback Federation of Europe uh uh I I did a lot of my keynoted dresses over there in a t-shirt so I got this best dress t-shirt from them because it's not really proper and you know the in in Europe people are used to things yeah know being like if you're up there speaking you're in a suit you know so I was in jeans and a t-shirt and uh anyway uh one year um I I actually ended up having a a sport coat and uh no tie but and somebody came up and said you know I'm disappointed I I was told that you'd be in a t-shirt I was looking forward to that so the other thing that's coming up is the suisson summit from 2024 I I had a a local Arison make these cobalt blue uh Crystal uh pieces for memorabilia for the uh speakers uh that that pop in and um there there's 20 of them and I have not that many speakers so that some of the people that come to attend in the raffle will end up with some of those as some of the raffle prizes will will be those and other we got a lot of other stuff but we we do fundraisers for uh students um I don't know that my bear is long enough to interest anybody in a shave but uh uh that that's been done last year a little over four ,000 I think $4,625 last year um for the student fund off the shave and then others from raffle and whatnot but the whole purpose of the the meeting is for me to have a fun time on my birthday and to raise money for the students so I can't travel so we we have a a 3-day EG meeting here in town we take over the yacht club I I I read their minutes from their meeting I'm a yacht club member now for three years and U although I I I'm mased out in public I don't go to their meetings but I do read the minutes and uh they they discussed our meeting at the last one and they said that everybody who works the meeting thinks that it's the most wonderful group of people and uh that uh they're they're they're they're all happy uh and uh that our event which is like they normally rent out for a a brief evening thing or a dinner or something we're renting three and a half days of their facility we pay their annual taxes so uh that that's how they described our event uh this this is the biggest event we have and uh uh we we cover their annual taxes so um the yach club is happy to have us and um uh uh I think it's a wonderful uh uh location for us um this year we're live streaming uh for people who cannot attend uh and we we cap the attendance uh and I think we're pretty well close to being capped at this point but the uh um we're playing musical chairs this year because we are live streaming it uh it's going to be videoed so uh uh when you're done with your talk we'll turn on some music for telling people that's time to take your break and get out then we're going to and Musical stop because the breaks are 15 20 minute breaks in between talks so people can consolidate what they're they can ask questions it's not one after another after another talk which is causes overshadowing you don't really remember what somebody said because the new stuff is coming in so it gives you a break but we're going to play music to bring people back in as well when the music is done you have to be in your chair because we won't let you in the hall because you're going to be walking in front of the camera at that point but there's a a fallback position the big screen in the bar will be showing the live streaming so uh I I'm I'm hoping that not everybody and just deciding to hang out in the bar but you we we'll see we'll see Jay Gan we'll have the link for the Suson City Summit uh right here in in October and next month uh yeah just just about five weeks away give or take uh get ready to blow out all those candles Jay yeah the 75th birthday for me and uh uh the karaoke night Friday Friday the dinner for the birthday on Saturday we we we usually have a pretty good time so yeah anyway uh Jak Gman great chat uh have a great weekend buddy say hi to Rita and Sky we'll do bye bye byebye the neuron noodle podcast is supported by listeners and businesses just like you