I came here and I cried every night for three months. I just couldn't bear the fact that, oh my gosh, what is this? Meet Monica, an Indonesian who's been in Singapore for over 20 years and is now a Singaporean citizen.
Monica told me how it feels to give up an Indonesian passport, the biggest differences in mentality between Indonesians and Singaporeans, and whether the stereotype about rich Indonesians in Singapore is true. I'm Max Chernov, let's go! Indonesians in Singapore.
Yeah. Is it a big community? It is a big community.
So Indonesians love Singapore because, you know, we send our kids there. Yeah. You know, as young as secondary school. Some of them even send their kids when they're in primary school.
It's a favorite place because it's very near. It's safe, you know, just for the kids and for the parents. Yeah.
You know, the sense of security, I think, is really, really important. So there is a huge community here. What kind of jobs like Indonesians do in Singapore? Nowadays, tech, IT, finance, banking.
I saw a lot of creative as well. So you know your art directors and optimizers and video editors, animations. The creative industry is quite popular now.
And back then, before? Before I think it's more on management business, corporate maybe banking. That's quite popular.
Not so much on medicine. I think because Singapore is seen as a business hub for Indonesians, so naturally they will learn the nooks and crannies of the business strategies and how you deal with regional clients or even global clients. I think those are the skills and knowledge that they want to learn from the Singaporeans.
Is it the case when Indonesians work in Singapore, but they still work with the Indonesian market? Because the market is huge. So the headquarters in Singapore, but still your main market is Indonesia. Now we see more and more of that.
But when I came here 20 years ago, no. It's very separated. But now there's a lot of Indonesian companies that are building businesses here. Vice versa. There's a lot of Singaporean and regional companies that want to enter Indonesia.
Because the opportunities, the volume is just really exciting over there. And very interesting at the moment. So nowadays, yes, there's a lot of... bilateral kind of connections but a decade or two ago at least from what i know not as much are indonesians like settle in some particular areas or they spread out the lower right again yeah there's some areas that are favorites like mission mission a lot of uh indonesians own apartments in ocean not necessarily not necessarily living there though They have those as investments maybe, but in terms of working Indonesians, yeah, the suburbs are pretty much the favorites.
The east as well, there's quite a lot and Juchat or Gatong. Yeah, there is actually a thing like a rich Indonesian or like Indonesian billionaires who come to Singapore, buy a lot of land. I guess it's like true to some extent like There are some super wealthy Indonesians who like Singapore. Yeah, why not? I mean, what's not to like in Singapore?
I mean, I think it speaks for everybody, not just Indonesians. I mean, you know, a lot of American companies, even Dyson came here and settled their headquarters here. Obviously, you know, the owner of Dyson also have a land here, or maybe a big mansion. Just quite a really nice place for people to maybe invest and for some to settle down in this country, right?
But for some reason, Indonesians have this reputation. Like, Chinese, rich Chinese, rich Indonesians. That's a thing. Well, that's what I heard too.
Do you know any like super super rich Indonesians? I know a few. You know a few, yeah. The Nassim Hills and the Tangmins.
Are they kind of like separated from the rest of the community? Or they're part of the community? I think they are part of it in a way.
Because the community is very big. So, you know, there's quite a lot of generational families that, you know, that is also part of that. Maybe the granddaughters or the children, the grandchildren is in NUS or NTU or whatever university is this. Then naturally, they will be part of the student community. So in a way, they are part of the community.
How's Indonesia abroad? Do they stick to each other or they mingle with others? Because some nations, they really prefer like we stick to each other.
That we are friendly with others, but we are kind of solid community. How was it with Indonesians? I think when we are together, it's quite solid. But when we are separate, then we mingle quite, you know, naturally as well with everybody else. But I think...
With any other community, like you said, right? You know, once you're together, it's quite solid. But it doesn't mean that we can't socialize with anybody else. It really depends.
Obviously, when we're together, oh my gosh. The noise, you know, the gossips, all comes out. You know, anything that happens back home or...
There's a lot of province, right? Indonesia is very big. What's happening in your province? what's happening in your hometown oh you know we heard this we heard that oh wow yeah and there's a lot of diverse um people in indonesia here some comes from sumatra some comes from java but maybe the the the most is from java from jakarta i've met a few people from ntb which is from lombok from bali from minang from makassar you know and they're all very different so when we come together Yeah, it feels like you're already very rich, you know, there's a lot to talk about.
Yeah. That's why I think we love to just hang out, catch up, you know, very interesting, very exciting. And I guess like ethnically there are many like Chinese Indonesians in Singapore. I'm sure, yes.
Yeah. So I'm trying to, because like I'm not from there, I'm trying to understand like the relationship between like different Indonesians, different Nisist, different like the ones from different places in Indonesia. So I'm just very curious how it works.
But once you're out of Indonesia, you don't separate yourself anymore. Because it's us against everybody else. So we don't say, ah, because you are this Chindo, and then because you are Indonesians, or whatever it is. It doesn't feel like that, because you're overseas.
What you've got is each other. So that segregation, you don't feel it anymore. At least nowadays it's even less and less at best because we just mingle. But segregation in Indonesia it exists. I mean this Chindo and the rest is like...
Maybe, maybe. But I think... Is it still a thing? Like Chindo, Chinese Indonesians and the rest Indonesians still like they get along well with each other now?
I think nowadays it's getting a lot better. Yeah. Than last time.
That's why I think we don't feel it anymore. Especially if we're outside of Indonesia. We don't feel that at all. No, even back in the office. Everybody mingles, nobody cares who, where you come from anymore, you know?
It's the performance, what you bring to the table. Are you a great team member? Why are we contributing to this? So the conversation has changed a lot. How can I benefit from you and vice versa?
What can you benefit from me? So it's more like transactional approach. I mean, maybe in a way it's kind of helped to get rid of that line. But depending on where you are, right? In the workplace, yes, maybe.
But you're outside of the workplace, yeah, we're friends. Okay, let's do whatever you want, you know? The tension, I think it doesn't feel as much as last time. I think that's how I feel.
What were your biggest struggles or challenges when you arrived? Yeah, the pace. The pace?
Much faster? 100 times faster. And you're from Jakarta? And I was already in the corporate world, already working.
And I came here and I cried every night for three months. I just couldn't bear the fact that, oh my gosh, what is this? Like eight hours in a day, your brain has to work for eight hours in a day.
Whereas maybe in the fall, yeah, your brain works for four and then you had time to do something else, right? To think, to socialize, to whatever, do whatever. But over here it's like eight hours, then you just do it based on this checklist. Then you move on, you go home, the next day then that's another hour, it's just go, go, go.
So I think that was quite a struggle. But after a while you get used to it. By the way guys, if you also want to start working remotely, one of the options is to start your own YouTube channel. And I prepared for you a PDF guide how to make your first $1000 from your YouTube channel.
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And now back to the video. How was the process of giving up your Indonesian passport? Like can you explain like maybe your emotions and like how the process looked like?
When I first moved here, I think three months into the job, I applied for PR. Back in 2003, it was pretty quick. So after I applied, maybe a month or two, I got my PR. From getting the PR, I think I was already having discussions with my family in terms of, am I going to be here long term? Do you mind if I live here and then you live back in Indonesia?
And how would you feel about that? And last time I think you have to be a care for five years and then you can apply for citizenship. Right.
So that five years pretty much the thinking year. So I weigh the pros and cons, but I think at the end of it, it's still very hard. It's very, very tough because it's just paper, right?
But emotionally you felt like you're detached from everything that is, you know, that you had, you know, your family's in. So I had a really long talk with my, my father. So I said, do you mind? Because this is very hard for me. I don't know what to do.
I don't know how to decide. And then he said, well, that's your life and you're still my daughter. It's just a piece of paper.
Would changing this means that it will make your life easier in terms of work, right? Because with Singapore passport, then you can just fly to the US for a meeting next week without worrying, oh, my visa's going to be rejected and it's costly to get visas. I said, yeah.
Career-wise, I think with Singaporean passport, it will be a lot easier for everybody and then for me as well. And the company said, oh, okay, go on, you go. So I said, based on that, I think, yeah, I would love to consider that. And then he said, yeah, go for it. Yeah, I think that when I went to the Indonesian embassy to give that up.
You know, they slash the thing and then do like all the red cross and everything. That just hits you right away, right? Yeah.
Oh shit, whatever it's done. It's very sad. Yeah. But then again, I make sure that I don't lose, you know, that feeling of I'm still part of my family. I'm still, I still have my friends.
This is just paperwork. But also, I like the fact that I'm living here now. This is home for me.
This is home for me and my husband, so my immediate family is here. So this is our base camp. It's great to have a base camp in Singapore.
So I was like, this is, I created my own home, so why not? After that, then it's okay. So basically, there's no Monica Hines in Jakarta. And in Indonesia, there's this paperwork called Kartu Keluarga.
So that means the whole family is there, right? The name, you know, the father. My name's not there anymore. I don't exist. Sometimes it hits you hard, you know.
Am I still part of the family? Yeah. But it's okay.
What part of you now is Singaporean? What part of you is Indonesian? Wah.
I think I think like a Singaporean. First and foremost, I think in English now. Sometimes I have to think about, oh, what's that word in Bahasa? I think, hmm. So I think it's the way you look at life.
the efficiencies and the productivities and it's like every single conversation must have an objective for example so what is this conversation's gonna do for you and gonna do for me yeah and gonna do for what's the purpose every conversation should be like that and then yeah i think it's it's based on performance right okay what have i done today what have my kids done today that i can say okay yes we have a really productive day. So I think maybe 90% of Greenhouse is very Singaporean already. 10%, the Indonesian part is, you know, the culture that I always bring, that always, you know, inbuilt in you, you know, the thankfulness or the teamwork, like the gotong royong, the kampung spirit and all of that.
It will never die anyway. And Indonesians are very creative. So I think that creative part of me is also still there.
Yeah. In a way that, you know, when you... think outside the box.
There's a quote that says, it's freedom in the framework. So I think I apply that here because Singapore is very infallible, right? This is the law, this is the policy, so you should better follow it.
Indonesians are like, yeah, okay, that's the law and the policy. Let's see what we can do around it, but still within that. So I think that I carry a lot, even here in Singapore.
But yeah, I think after 20 years, I'm more Singaporean than English. But still you kind of keep this creative force. Oh yeah, for sure. It has to. Even right now I have three boys.
I make sure that they know how to be flexible. I think that's the word. They know how to think beyond those structures. I think, you know.
How's it to raise three kids, three boys in Singapore? How? Yeah, how's it?
A lot of energy is needed. A lot of food in the bridge. We replenish food every two to three days, especially fruit and vegetables.
They do a lot of activities. So keep them busy. That's our life, pretty much. From a financial standpoint, is it manageable for you? Yeah, it is manageable.
Depends on the lifestyle. I mean before we got married and before we got kids we know we already planned okay who is gonna work who's gonna stay home for example yeah and where is the income going to be from so we we talked about that from the beginning if we are not prepared we will never have three kids so for us is Yeah, okay, we can do this. Yeah.
As long as we keep doing this, stop doing that, and, you know, adjust this, simply that. So it is manageable, and there's a lot of people with a lot of kids here. So it's like you're the rational part of your Singaporean mentality. Yeah, we plan, we like calculate everything, and then you go for it, yeah? We know the risk, man.
It's... You know? Yeah, I think planning, I think...
Then another Singaporean thing here is everything has to be planned or strategized. Even picking schools for the kids. You have to plan it since when they're in your tummy. My friend registered his kid to a kindergarten even when he's in her tummy.
So I was like, why do you do that? Because I need to queue and then there's no guarantee that I will get my kids into this particular school. And then from there you strategize which primary school, which secondary school, what subjects are you going to take. But you know, everything needs to be planned. That is a big learning point for me.
I was like, it wasn't that bad last time. I think my parents are very chill. How come now it's... And we're not very familiar with the education system here because I didn't go to school in Singapore. My husband didn't too.
basically have no idea what the education education system is looks like so we have to you know dig from scratch yeah and find out through our friends and families and through communities yeah but yeah it's a very complicated system once you get the hang of it for the first one the second and the third is easy you go with that often to indonesia with your kids yeah yeah at the end so they kind of feel The rules, kind of, yeah? Yeah, I think, you know, Singapore in a way it's nice to live in, but this is not the normal life. I always say in terms of living in Singapore, it's not normal guys, seriously. So we make sure that the kids have exposed to other countries, how the way we live back home, for example.
My husband is from New Zealand, so we go to New Zealand often as well. So they see different ways of life. And I think it's very important for us.
So then when you're in Singapore, because they're educated here, this is not all and beyond. There's a lot of other aspects and elements in life that you also need to know. So yeah, Indonesia is super, you've been there, so super interesting.
It's diverse, everything is there. Everything else. From, I don't know, the high lives to the low lives, in a way.
So you can see everything. So I think it's a really nice place to learn from. What's the feelings when you land in Jakarta airport and step out to the...
Well nowadays I'm okay with it but I think the best feeling is like I'm home. Once the plane lands it's like hmm this is... I'm very familiar with this you know this is home.
Yeah. So I'll be okay. I think that's a great feeling even when you land in Bali.
Yeah. You know. Once you land, you're like, oh my gosh, I can chill now.
So I think that's the impact or the effect that Indonesia has on us, especially when we are in a very, you know, I wouldn't say stressful situation all the time, but Singapore is very different, right? So once you land somewhere else, especially Jakarta, my home, then you'll be like, okay, I need to change mindset straight away because things are not working the same way as they are in Singapore. So the change of mindsets is very important.
Yeah. Do you have a big family over there? Extended family. Yes, oh huge.
Huge. Is it like there are normally like big families and they kind of try to get together everyone, like all their cousins? We used to go to my grandma's house every Sunday.
No fail. Even if you have a boyfriend, you bring your boyfriend first to grandma's house and say hi to everybody. Then everybody can do their own thing.
So it's every weekend, every Sunday. So it still stays with us until now. But now everybody's scattered, they have their own family. But for example, when I go home with my... Kids, that everybody will use that as an excuse, OK, we have to get together again.
It's like you never grow up, like you're still that five or eight-year-old, you know, girls and boys. But now with our eight and ten-year-olds, the next generation. Yeah, I think it's that that I miss as well because Indonesian, you know, the families are quite close together.
Close together, yeah. In here maybe it's normal to see kids when they're working and then they start to rent their own apartment or their own room outside of the family, right? But in Indonesia it's normal if you live with your parents until you're an adult. Yeah. It's okay.
It's okay. Low social pressure to move out. Why would you? You got all that food, you got like a big house.
other than a small hostel or a hotline or something. But because everybody is very close, we like that feeling of, oh, I have my sister, oh, I have my brother, my cousins, this and that. It can be quite lonely here in Singapore.
That's why Indonesia is... That's why the community is... That's why the community is......mansalota. Yeah.
You said about dating. How is dating like you? Is it okay?
It depends on the family, depends on the parents. Oh! Or it's okay to have boyfriend or girlfriend. Depending on the parents. Depending on the parents, the traditions, the expectations.
I'm lucky, I think my parents didn't really involve much in those things. Yeah. And I was already here, so they couldn't see me anyway. Whatever I'm doing here, they don't know. So they have to trust me.
Yeah. But yeah, I think... Even when I was there in Indonesia, they were quite open to that.
But I heard quite many stories that the parents are very protective, especially if they have daughters. So they find it, a few of my friends found it really hard to date. Because there's a lot of criteria.
Oh, you know, you shouldn't date this person because of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Yeah, he's nice, but... Oh my gosh, the but. A lot of that.
But I don't know, I mean, that's... Maybe it really depends on each household. Again, tradition, you know, the expectation. We're very chill. So...
Was it okay for you, as Indonesians, the majority is Muslim, right? To marry technically Christian? Inter-religion kind of marriage is quite hard, especially in Indonesia.
I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know. But I don't think that there is any registry that will approve that. Over there? Yes. unless you change your religion to one.
So he's supposed to convert if you get married there? He's supposed to convert? Yeah, one of those has to convert to Islam.
So you have to choose one religion. But if you're Muslim, I think the expectation is to follow the... Yeah. To convert to Islam. There are some, of course, there are some cases, but I think it's hard.
I don't know about the situation right now. Maybe it's a bit more relaxed or open, but I don't know. But so far, I think from what I see, a lot of people just stick to their own categories. Do you find something strange now in Indonesia? Or like how your Indonesian friends in Indonesia live, how they behave, their habits, and you cannot like stand it already?
Well, there are some, there are some, there are some. Because of habit, right? Like for example, speed, I guess. things get done a lot less snowboard but again they're working on a different timeline different uh you know process so whatever it is so yeah there's some that especially in the work environment but i think i i see more and more companies in indonesia having that exposure to outside of indonesia right the global mindset because information right now you can just get it within a flick of a finger So it's not like last time, oh, you know, there's no internet, there's nothing. But now you say, okay, to win this, I have to be at that level.
That kind of information right now is very easy to get. The working culture there is way, you know, different from last time. They kind of like compete with the Singaporeans, the Malaysians, you know, and the Southeast Asians or even like the regions or the US, the UK. Yes, they can. But then there's just certain things like, for example, people don't queue up.
it frustrates you but you know what it's okay you still get what you want so yeah on the wi-fi sometimes doesn't work but again that's all right You have a few phones anyway with a few different providers. Then this one doesn't work, you use the other one. So, yeah, creative, creative solution. Exactly. You know, in Indonesia, you know, there's the CBD area.
They have this regulation for cars. So every day it's like the odd and the even numbers. So for example, Monday is for even numbers or odd numbers.
So people get creative. They buy two cars. with different plate numbers.
This is just one of the really interesting things that you can just hear from Indonesia, right? Does it solve the problem? I hope so. But people are so creative there.
If you give a problem to an Indonesian, they will say, OK, I don't know how to do it now, but I will find a way to do it. But as for Singaporeans, OK, this is the problem, this is how I'm going to do it. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. What do you think? But Indonesian style? Okay, it sounds very complicated, but that's okay.
You give me three days, I'll give you that in three days. But let me think about that. And I will try to find whatever it is. And I'll remember that to you.
Whether the process is something that you have in mind or not, doesn't matter. Yeah. But the end result, you get.
Do you miss this approach to life from Indonesians? Like, it already annoys you as a Singaporean. It doesn't annoy me at all nowadays.
Because? In some cases you need that. So maybe two out of ten cases you will need to be that flexible.
The other eight you do it based on process. I'm lucky to have that kind of exposure I guess. That I know that it's okay to be creative. And it's okay to be structured. So if you have those balance right, I think you can play for your advantage.
It applies differently. I've been to, I will say many, but several places in Indonesia. One of my favorite places on earth is Amal's Injil, the volcano.
It's unbelievable. It's like, oh my god, it's one of the most beautiful nature-created places, things that I've seen in my life. What would be your advice, like let's say top three things in Indonesia, if like say the Singaporean or someone living in Singapore want to explore Indonesia, like what would be your advice, like top three places there?
Let's say city, ocean and mountains. So mountains, yes. Kauah Wijen. and then go to Bromo and then also Kintamani. Is it Kintamani?
The one in Mount Rinjani. Rinjani. Yes.
In the... Bali? Yes, yes, yes.
Around that area, Bali. So those are the three famous ones. I think Bromo should be one of your top three.
For sure. So that's above. Again, I think this is based on my limited knowledge. You know how Indonesians don't travel much.
In their own country. No, why not? They are now doing that.
A lot of people just like to go overseas, right? But there's a lot of domestic tourism right now, which is really exciting. For the ocean, if you go down under, I mean, you know, the diving sites are beautiful in the east part of Indonesia. The ones that are not very commercialized yet, I think that's the best ones.
I mean, the most famous is Munaken, Sedef Tuan. Now it's Labuan Bajo. So near Komodo Island. South of the South. Yes.
And then I think Raja Ampat. So that's quite remote, but quite pristine. So those are the top three.
For the city one, if you, I mean, Bali would be the top, you know, destination for Singaporeans. All the massages, all the hair treatments. People keep forgetting that Bali is Indonesia. Bali is Indonesia.
We speak the same language. So Bali would be... Still my favourite place. I think the second one would be, you can choose whether Yogyakarta. Ah, I think, yeah.
Yogyakarta or around there. So Yogyakarta, Malang, you know, that's really nice. It's a different kind of city because Yogyakarta, we call it the student city. Yeah, it's a really different feeling. So Yogyakarta will be my second one.
The third one, again, you know, I think I'm just going around Java in Bali because that's what I know. There's a lot of other places in Makassar or Medan or Bangka Melitung and you know all those really beautiful places that I haven't been before. Yeah.
Makassar is great too. But maybe if you're around Java, maybe Bandung. Because it's slightly up in the mountains a little bit. So it's cooler there.
Yeah. You can do camping. You can, I think there's some hiking routes and interesting stuff. Yeah.
But yeah, it's great. quite cooling in terms of weather and you have direct flights to Bandung. I think no, Silk Air used to fly through there but not anymore. More maybe those are the top three in Georgia. We we went there with my friend We went to the the most so we actually googled the best place the best restaurant in the city So the city center we went there like best rating super nice place and also what I love about Indonesia people are so lovely.
It's like oh my god so friendly in Georgia It's just yes, people don't speak much English in some remote areas, but they still like super super nice to you I think it's the nicest one of the nicest people I've met. And so we went to this restaurant, and we had like, each of us had six or seven different dishes. And we had a lot of drinks, and the bill was $11. What did you expect?
I don't know, but that is $30. But $11 for two people. I know some people, especially foreigners, they go to Bali almost every other weekend.
And in Bali, you have everything, basically. You have surfing, you have Ubud. with the spiritual world you have like party place like huta and this on the left side so and you have the mountains too yeah to hike the party terraces everything and it's booming now like the real estate development is great but i think before it was occupied by australians there was so many australians yeah now it's everyone like it's ever yeah so that's the good place i mean people say it's overrated people say this and that But again, I think for me it's one of the welcoming places.
Yeah. You know, some areas are super commercialized, very touristy. Yeah, sure.
You go outside of that, then you will see the real Bali, the culture. I think it's very nice. Now I want to book my next flight to Bali.
What's your main principle about money and managing money and investing money? Investing... Yeah, everything has to be strategic, right, in Singapore.
So, passive income. It's the strategy. Do you have any passive income streams?
Yes, at the moment we do. Can you name what it is? We invest in properties that we rent out.
That's quite a no-brainer. We have some stocks as well. And some businesses that have run and operationally run by itself. Yeah, we do have those things as well. So I'm still working 9 to 5. But also on...
At the same time, we know that there's other income coming in. If you stop working like today, can you survive with the passive income streams? Yeah, that's amazing. Planning.
Planning. That's why we plan from 20 years ago. Yeah. I think wherever you are in the world, it's your plan ahead.
And hope that the plan works very well, by the way. It can go either way. So the plan has to have plan A and plan B and you know.
What would be some important principle that you learned through your career one big thing is don't assume never settle so those are the two principles it applies to everything i think it's mutual respect as well and one more thing you see three i have another one which is um being fair in terms of commercials for example you know like yeah they're both running a business we have to be fair to each other are you paying me fairly am i giving you my services fairly i think that is uh the biggest thing especially you know running you A business in Singapore. And also how do you treat each other, right? Am I being fair to you? Are you being fair to me?
And it's mutual respect. It goes a long way. Yeah, I think in Singapore as well, you know, you never assume.
You just find your data first before you say anything. Dangerous if you're just assuming things. What's the meaning of life, Phu?
What's the meaning of life? I recently spoke about that actually. In life, we have three things, you know.
You have profit. passion and purpose. I think passion, I get it for the line of work that I'm in, you know, maybe profit, yes, because I've been working for so long, I've been saving, investing and whatever, so now it's time for purpose. I'm involved in mentoring the Indonesian students, so basically building the Indo communities in Singapore with tips and I get involved more so this year than I've been here for 20 years.
That's my purpose. It's really just inspiring the Indo kids or whoever, you know, that wants to live here or wants to have grander lives. I don't know.
In my line of work in creative industry and advertising, I also want to instill this like knowledge and, you know, guys, this is really interesting. And you can still do well here. It's still a good industry to get into.
And then this is what you're going to do. So I'm sharing a lot of that now. So I guess my life stage right now, it's all about purpose. Why am I here for?
My husband volunteers a lot. He does social work and all of that. I say, if he can do it, I should do it. This is why I'm doing stuff that I love to do.
I also want everybody else to be inspired. To say that, oh, okay, one can do it, I can do it too. Of course.
And then share the things that, you know, I... I wish I knew when I was 20 or when I was, you know, moving here before. Now I say, yeah, you can know this now.
Just ask me anything. Is that a long answer to your question? Yes. Awesome.
Thank you. Thank you so much. You will have a good luck if you watch the next video right now. The only problem is it will be gone in five, four...
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