there's this Collective Consciousness happening around focusing on meat a food that's been demonized vilified and it looks to be incredibly healthy and nutritious for humans I believe almost all Physicians are intelligent and want attention we're just [ __ ] brainwashed 10.2 times harder to un-brainwash someone high fructose corn syrup sneaking in his natural fruit flavor when there's actually no fruit in some of these yogurts do you really want to be eating this oil do you really want to be eating excess amounts of linolic acid from any seed oil but canola specifically and you really got to read the label it's like partially hydrogenated they don't have to put it if it's less than a certain percentage a lot of what you espouse what I espouse it's not fear mongering it's actually clearing the air knowledge is power but a year and a half into it run into problems with long-term ketosis that we can talk about wow so this is kind of how your ni philosophy has evolved from being pure strict carnivore to now incorporating our next guest Dr Paul saladino is Ren for his advocacy of the carnivore diet and his critical perspective on conventional nutritional wisdom he is double board certified with credentials including an MD from the University of Arizona in Tucson and a residency at the University of Washington in Seattle saladino is a certified physician nutritional specialist his journey into medicine was driven by the realization that Western medicine often fails to address the root causes of chronic illness focusing instead on the symptomatic treatment through medication this realization led him to explore the potential of nutrition particularly an animal-based diet in preventing and reversing chronic disease saladino's exploration of a dietary impacts on health is deeply personal including a significant period where he adhered to a raw vegan diet which he ultimately found detrimental to his health this experience coupled with further research led him to adopt and then become a prominent and proponent of the carnivore diet which he credits with curing his autoimmune conditions and improving his overall all Health however it's noteworthy that his views have evolved over time initially saladino adhered strictly to a meaton diet but later adjusted this approach to include moderate intake of carbohydrates from fruits highlighting the impact of flexibility and individualized approaches to diet hey guys welcome back to the ultimate human podcast I'm your host human biologist Gary Brea where we go down the road everything anti-aging biohacking longevity and everything in between and today is going to be a phenomen Al day because um I have someone that I've wanted to have on the podcast now for almost a year I've been following this guy for a long time I incorporate a lot of his ancestral tenants into my daily life I'm a huge huge fan he's a mentor of mine doesn't even know it but he is and um we're in La of all places but um getting to sit down and get a few minutes of his time so we can hear his wisdom is going to be an episode you definitely do not want to miss so welcome to the podcast the carnivore MD Dr Paul saladino thanks for having me on brother previously carnivore MD yeah I changed I actually wanted to start with that and one of the things that I do admire about you is I think well first of all I I know that this started as a health Journey for you did um because you were a raw food vegan for a while 15 years ago people really know long time ago I was like the gnore him he was a raw food vegan true yeah that didn't work out true story um so talk a little bit about your journey to becoming the the carnivore MD and like I because think some of the the most influential people in the world and and and and the great thought leaders of our time you know really come from some kind of problem that they solved in their own life yeah I mean I grew up in a family of doctors my dad's a doctor my mom's a nurse and I had eczema asthma and allergies as a kid I was a little bit obese as a kid and so I got any of those pictures P I want to see a chubby Paul salino I don't have any baby pict thr that up on the podcast I've got some pictures when I was raw vegan oh you yeah and I was I was 20 lbs of lean muscle mass lighter so I was such a gaunt human yeah I'm 165 lbs 5'9 now and I have a moderate amount of muscle mass I'm pretty lean but I was 145 even sometimes less than 145 pounds as a raw vegan um but so I grew up with you know average kid problems not super sickly but not super healthy and I got overmedicated I got theophine which is a medication that we used to give to people with asthma I had pills of theophan emptying into my applesauce when I was a kid I had over I had inhalers I remember one time my dad forced me to take an inhaler at the dinner table and I puked in my pea soup just too much Albuterol right at one time and so there were no real thoughts about food or where the roots of my illness was coming from we ate pretty standard American diet growing up probably slightly better than a standard American diet and it was really not until I started thinking about human health that I took matters into my own hands I started thinking about diet right when I was a PA right so before I went to medical school I was a physician assistant worked in cardiology and my first fora into diet was a misstep in the vegan world so I was a raw vegan for seven months lost a lot of weight had horrible GI symptoms I really couldn't be in a closed room like this with people my gas was so bad oh really yeah you were just letting them rip huh it was so bad I used to I used to work in a small office maybe half the size of this with two other women a nurse practitioner and a PA and after I left that practice they told this I mean I heard stories about how they used to complain to the CEO of the business about how bad it was it was like oh so bad I was just I thought I was doing the right thing and months and months and months I'm detoxing I'm detoxing my gut floor just wasn't having it and eventually I kind of realized humans have always eaten meat in our history we've never there's never been a tribe discovered of humans that doesn't eat meat it's part of our biology it's written into our DNA and I reincorporated meat and did something kind of like paleo for 10 or 12 years but it didn't fix my Xmen asthma that vegan diet didn't fix it so I haven't eaten a lot of process feel better you put some muscle back on you yeah but yeah muscle back on I was running at the time faster gained probably about 5 to 15 pounds of muscle over time and started to feel better but didn't didn't quite fix the eczema and Asthma and then I was in medical school had really bad eczema at different times I was doing a lot of Jiu-Jitsu and I would get impo which is a superficial fungal infection right well bacterial infection on the skin yeah from the mats when my because you get eczema on my knees and elbows and they they get infected and it was pain in the ass I was always tweaking my diet trying to figure it out but I thought you know I'm eating this organic paleo diet vegetables salads nuts meat eggs fruit and and my Eczema is still problematic for me so what's going on here and it wasn't until my residency at the University of Washington I had a really really bad eczema flare I did a bunch of uh sort of mushroom extracts Corps rayi chaga and it just flared my exml like crazy I had headit to ezema wow and I was just sick of it I was like this is not right my immune system is not happy with these Foods and I it was right about the same time that I was driving to the beach to Surf um it was probably a cold rainy weekend in Seattle it was miserable surfing there and I heard Jordan Peterson on Rogan's podcast talking about how a strictly meat-based diet improved his autoimmune conditions wow I know he talks about that I thought he got that from you you actually that from him wow cuz he only eats meat salt water occasionally eats liver but it's rare okay but that's what I mean meat meat yeah and so it's pretty interesting and so I am fascinated by autoimmune conditions because the further I went in medicine so I did two years Masters uh as physician assistant worked in cardiology for four years four years of medical school four years of residency and throughout all that I was really interested in what was causing human illness and I started to see this commonality along autoimmune conditions the immune system is disordered in almost every single chronic disease atherosclerosis is autoimmune in some ways dementia has autoimmune components uh mental health issues depression anxiety have neuroinflammation and changes in the phenotype of the maccrage in the brain so the immune system is at the center and I really think that there's a very compelling hypothesis around the gut as this Ground Zero oh no question where the immune system is being programmed right because so much of our immune system lies in the lamin appropria these these lymphatic tissues right around the gut and so the foods we eat program Us in interesting ways and and that can extend to the whole body because these immune cells then move from the gut to the whole body and affect us in different ways so some people get some people get autoimmune thyroid disease some people get rheumatoid arthritis and often the cause is the same but Western medicine doesn't think that way Western medicine wants to divide illnesses into 10,000 different pigeon holes 36,000 to be exact it's expanded 36,000 of it's become even more and I think that it's probably four or five things right 36,000 from five it's just different manifestations in different people based on our genetics at a baseline wow and so I thought okay if Jordan Peterson is an N of one but I think these stories of humans are are so valuable what little nuggets that's a gem that's a diamond piece of information he fixed his conditions that Western medicine had been telling him and his daughter Michaela were incurable for decades by eliminating all plants that's crazy what's going on there let me experiment with that so I cut out all plants ate meat organs salt and animal fat for a year and a half xma gets better right never get a recurrence but a year and a half into it run into problems with long-term ketosis that we can talk about right wow so this is kind of how your your diet philosophy has evolved from being pure strict carnivore to now incorporating clean carbohydrates from berries honey maple okay things like that because what happened after a year and a half was that I had electrolyte problems I had muscle cramps I had sleep disturbances heart palpitations declining sex hormones testosterone goes from total of like 800 to 500 sleep disturbance and I'm thinking what's going on here and then I came across this paper that nobody had ever showed me in medical school talking about how insulin affects the kidney and actually signals to the kidney to hold on to electrolytes and so if we don't get an insulin signal from our meals we waste sodium and along with the Sodium everything else flows out that's the way the kidneys work there's all these Transporters antiporters and sorters part of the keto flu well part of the keto flu it's like long-term keto flu right right because my body just wasn't holding on to these nutrients these minerals and so I have this kind of crisis of faith I wrote a book about the carnivore diet because I'm so interested in this collection of people healing things that Western medicine says are not healable right there's this Collective Consciousness happening around focusing on meat a food that's been demonized vilified and it looks to be incredibly healthy and nutritious for humans evolutionarily consistent people healing every autoimmune condition under the sun right by cutting plants out and everyone's a little different but what's going on here this is a movement it's really just a it's something that's happening even now today I wrote a book about it and then I'm thinking oh man I don't know if I can be strict carnivore that's hard on your brain right it really challenges my mental flexibility to think okay maybe there's a piece of the truth here but maybe I don't have the whole truth and that's the humility that I've had yeah the whole time that love that I love seeing that you're you're you're willing to get out of a dogmatic commitment to one you know linear line of thinking and say I'm I'm willing to actually change and evolve and amend you know my my protocol and my my my dietary recommendations I always want to be evolving and thinking and learning and I I I there's I think it's just I forget who said this but you know it's like don't say that you have the truth say that you have a piece of the truth who has the whole truth no one right but we all share pieces of the truth in hopes that it will help people that can benefit from our experiences so I added back fruit looking at kind of the plant kingdom and thinking the leaves of plants and the stems of plants like celery or the roots of plants or the seeds of plants which are actually seeds nuts grains and beans they all have defense chemicals and this is otney 101 right and they all have more defense chemicals than the fruit and if you look at the fruit it's colorful it's sweet the plant wants you to eat the fruit there's a clear signal here like here's a treat don't eat me yeah well yeah like here's a treat don't eat the rest of me right and and maybe eat this mango and deposit the seed somewhere else or eat this raspberry and poop out some of my seeds somewhere in a pile of poop fertilizer it's a clear design and if you look at the way fruit even ripens fruit contains defense chemicals and they decline as the fruit ripens wow so an unripe fruit has more defense chemicals than a ripe fruit there's a clear there's a clear collaboration between animals insects humans and plants that's been going on and we sort of in some ways for some people not everyone we have these genetic susceptibilities that make us more sensitive to defense chemicals in the vegetables and what I've come to Now sort of over time in my evolution is this perspective that if you're thriving why change anything right but if you're not it's really interesting and insightful to question our assumptions about nutrition first assumption meat is horrible for us every news Outlet is going to tell you that yep saturated fat y horrible for you that's the devil that's the cause of heart disease right second assumption vegetables are great for everyone plants are the best thing on the earth eat more of these to thrive if you have an illness it's because you're not eating enough fiber you're oh my God so true it's because you're not eating enough plants Gary you should eat more plants and Less meat and so I turn that on its head and go okay what if I look back at I in my mind this is just my sort of my sort of summation of what I look at the medical literature and anthropology I went to visit the hodza in Tanzania you look at where other hunter gatherer tribes go in terms of their preference of foods and at this point we've completely excluded all ultr processed food we can talk about that but if you look at unprocessed animal and plant foods which I think can form an incredibly healthy diet for every human there is I believe a hierarchy of value in those foods and we see this reflected in the way hunter gatherers behave the foods they prefer and if you ask Western medicine or you ask people who consume General scientific information or nutritional you know information plants are at the top right and I'm going to say actually let's put plants at the bottom the vegetables and put meat at the top right because meat and organs are the center of every human diet that we've ever studied and doesn't mean that they eat only meat and organs or that they eat the majority of their diet as meat and organs but if you ask the hza what's your favorite food it's meat right without a question I mean Singapore has one of the longest average life expectancies and they have one of the highest consumptions of meat in the world I think it's like a pound and a half average of meat per day yeah and that never gets mentioned in conversations about blue zones conveniently conveniently left out of Blue's own conversations I don't think Dan vuter uh ever visited Singapore this is this just recapitulation this happens over and over in medical science we we could go on you know some of the research that I I I viewed in cenarius um but that's contrary to to a lot of conventional thinking I mean we we we in in 22 years of mortality research I did not see a single centenarian not once I'm not saying it doesn't exist but we did not process a death claim for centenarian that did not have clinically elevated levels of LDL cholesterol when they died uhuh um now clinically elevated we should talk about this yeah exactly yeah but in any case I mean I didn't mean to cut you off but but I I think there's a lot of conventional wisdom and we form an industry around it and then you know it's like an aircraft carrier moving at full speed to to to actually turn it around it takes there's so much inertia that to to actually turn it around because there's so many people on the deck of that ship that are relying on that conventional theory of thinking and it it picks up so much momentum and and you know the Health Care System evolves around it to then actually turn that is is is difficult super hard takes but we should I want to come back to that idea that because there are multiple studies I want to talk about LDL CL there are multiple studies that show that people who live a long time lien 85 Plus the Lothian Birth Cohort have elevated levels of cholesterol so it's quite interesting and challenges this hypothesis that apob is directly injurious to the endothelium but if we go back to this hierarchy it's like you look at H 100 gatherers meat organs honey fruit these are the foods that they prefer you ask the hza what are your favorite foods meat berries bobob honey tubers is the last thing vegetables aren't even on the list other than tubers they don't really eat salads M right they don't eat seeds unless they're starving and so that's interesting to me and again I want to reiterate the fact that it's not that everyone needs to think about this and limit those foods but for people who have issues that are unresolved fatigue anxiety mental health issues sleep disturbance low libido weight loss issues autoimmune conditions of a variety of of forms for a lot of those people limiting or cutting out the vegetable plant foods for some amount of time as an experiment is incredibly helpful and so that's why I didn't want to be carnivore MD anymore right because I eat plant foods and I Have Become less dogmatic over time hopefully and I didn't want to say to people hey you can only eat this one way right I meet a lot of people who eat vegetables and are super healthy right but I've also met a lot of people and I think the value of anecdote in story and Human Experience is is something you can't ignore who cut those things out and have these long-standing issues resolved so what's going on there right it's not something to ignore and I think that our detractors who are similar and make similar Arguments for both of us would say there's no RCT Paul that says vegetables are bad for randomized clinical trial yeah and I'm saying I can give you a thousand people who have had improvements in joint pain long-standing inflammatory bowel disease irritable bowel syndrome insomnia mental health conditions ecos psoriasis I'm one of them you're telling me that's not valid because there's no RCT and I'm not saying everyone needs to do it I'm just saying consider this yeah consider this and understand that meat is being vilified organs are not even eaten in the western Consciousness you know unique nutrients that are left out of our diets and fruit and honey I mean a lot those are increasingly under attack you know people are saying oh it's going to spike your glucose we can talk about that too but vegetables are elevated and meat is it's just upside down World which is which is similar because a lot of things depending on your way you see the world upside down world seems to be a pretty accurate characterization of a lot of things today you know it's interesting I had a um a Harvard MD on on my podcast last week Dr Palmer and uh he's a uh Harvard MD he's a psychiatrist and he's treating some of the most drug-resistant mental illnesses and I'm talking about real crippling mental illnesses um like severe forms of schizophrenia with paranoia and um you know where people are literally trapped inside their own bodies you know um voices paranoia um you know all kinds of really tragic consequences that and they're drug resistant and he's treating them with ketogenic diet and um when you're when you're to the level where you're treating drug resistant mental illness illness with nutrition I think you're starting now to see the power that the human body has not just to heal itself but that nutrition can have on a whole consequence a whole Cascade of of issues it's incredible um yeah it's really interesting what's happening there I've I've spent a lot of time working with people who had severe mental illness also I did my residency in Psychiatry right I've since left psychiat hey guys if you've been watching the ultimate human podcast for any length of time you know that one thing I do not do is push products I do not just let any Advertiser into the space because I believe that the products that appear on the ultimate human podcast should be things that I use every day in my life to improve my own physiology one of them is something called the echoo plus the echoo plus is a hydrogen water generator that you can take on the go you essentially take the top off of this bottle you pour bottled water in this and repeatedly it will make high part per million hydrogen water you press this little button you'll see these bubbles going up in the water that's hydrogen being created in the water there are all kinds of peer-reviewed published clinical studies on the benefits of hydrogen water including reduced inflammation better absorption of your supplements better absorption of your Foods better balance of the stomach acid and it feeds an entire class of bacteria in your gut hydrogen water in my opinion is the most beneficial water that you can drink and now you can take it wherever you go you can go to Echo East CH HOH h2o.com that's Echo eoh h2o.com enter the code ultimate 10 for a discount Echo H2O enter the code ultimate 10 for a discount I think that mainstream Psychiatry is just a um man just a what a dumpster fire yeah in I mean in the most dumpster fire in the most respectful way um but uh you know and that's not because I have anything against the doctors it's just it's mostly every doctor I've met has been intelligent and well-intentioned it's just the medical system is broken in our Paradigm and I think the biggest break is we treat from the neck up and from the neck down right and we somehow think that this is not connected to this and that was really my realization that you know I was seeing people in Psychiatry and there was never any intention to diet in my residency at the University of Washington and you're seeing neuroinflammation that's that's the root cause of most psychiatric illness is neuroinflammation like I said we have these macrophages in our brain U they're called micral cells and they they become inflamed they have a switch and they become you know a certain phenotype when they become inflamed and when they become reactive against our bodies and what's triggering that well it's something coming from here and so dietary changes in Psychiatry that's such a radical thing to do and I wish there was absolutely no ability to do that in my residency at the University of Washington one of the most preeminent you know universities in the country in Seattle there's no ability to treat anything with diet it's all medications don't worry about the side effects any of this stuff and so that was really why I left medicine I've had this just complete loss of religion and I'm still a doctor I'm still a board certified licensed Physicians but I don't practice I do this sort of thing educationally and I realized that there's so many parallels between the way that we divide the brain and the body and with every other autoimmune condition that we see I mean I've talked to so many people who go to see gastron neurologists for inflammatory bowel diseases Crohns and all sort of colitis who are told there's no connection with diet yes it's literally in your gut we see discharge papers from from oncology treatment centers that say dietary recommendations none yeah and I'm like none somebody just finished you know several rounds chemotherapy for for breast cancer or colon cancer or metastatic cancer and they're blessed enough to be on the other side of this and now there's no dietary recommendations that's incredible even during treatment dietary recommendations during treatment none um that's astounding to me you know Ben and& Jerry's I mean it's you got to gain weight yeah yeah you got to gain weight that's it you got to gain weight yeah um I want to talk about the keto thing for a minute because there's a little bit of a discordance here that's interesting to me because I had a bad experience with keto and Chris Palmer is using keto to treat you know profound mental illness so I think there's clearly value to ketogenic it's not prolonged keto dieting either it's it's what guess you would call it keto reset right there's I think there's something to that and um we know that when you're intentional about your food choices things get better and so what he's doing with patience is sort of an incredibly brilliant idea where I'm going to use a key to diet to improve the quality of their diet I think some sort of a framework for diet helps people do that and if it's cutting out carbohydrates great because you're cutting out carbohydrates that are ultr processed right and we know that that when you have an ultra processed flower from ultr processed grains you're stripping out the information that's been there for all of our Evolution as humans and that's very confusing for humans right and I think that the same thing about sugar and this is a very interesting position that I don't think I've done a good enough job communicating to people but if you look at processed sugar if you look at table sugar that is a molecule of sucrose it's a disaccharide of glucose and fructose right and that is interesting because humans would never have had that evolutionarily we would have always had that molecule in con with thousands literally thousands of other compounds in the fruit so you look at honey there's over 600 components in honey there's probably over a thousand components in honey but 300 haven't even been identified so there's polyphenols and and prebiotics and you look at a a piece of fruit it's probably over 5,000 components in that piece of fruit so there's all this there's all this contributory information that comes with sugar in our diets whether it's honey maple syrup or a piece of fruit that is not the same as a cable sugar which has zero inflammation and it goes in your body and it basically just can feed the bacteria in your gut and cause overgrowth and lead to lead to increases in lipopolysaccharide endotoxin which which we are so clearly connecting in Western medicine if you have endotoxemia this increase in lip polysaccharide in your in your gut and in your body that's horrible for humans but what's so cool is that if you eat an orange you're getting fructose in the sugar and fructose gets demonized but you're also getting all this information that's actually preventing your bacteria in your gut from over growing so this is a difference I don't want people to fear fruit or fear unprocessed forms of honey but understand that we can't conflate research on processed sugar or high fructose corn syrup yeah I was just going to say I want to delineate the difference between fructose that's found in fruit and high fructose corn syrup which by the way now is is sneaking into labels I did I did a podcast short on this as natural flavors natural fruit flavors and and and you really got to read the label it's like partially hydrogenated you know they they don't have to put it if it's less than a certain percentage right in there and so these partially hydrogenated oils which is you know the sling term for the seed oils and um high fructose Corin syrup sneaking in as natural fruit flavor when there's actually no fruit in some like some of these yogurts you know with fruit on the bottom um right it's it's blueberry flavoring in high fructose corn syrup with a dye to look like a blueberry color but there's actually no fruit in it it's crazy but high fructose corn syrup is made from corn obviously but corn is all glucose and it's a different molecule than fructose M so in to make fructose from glucose you have to exract it you have to isize it then you have to highly process it so you remove it from corn it's not even a whole food anymore it's not even a food anymore it's just a industrial chemical and there's studies showing that hose corn syrup contains Trace Amounts of mercury and other toxins and the highy fructose corn syrup industry has gone to Great Lengths to cover these up but it's it's just I think this is the problem with humans and it goes back to this these simple principles that I think humans can live by and if these guide the way we're living M we can be so much healthier which is why would you e a f that has been stripped of all the information that has always been presented with that in humans yes you know a a processed wheat flour you never encounter high fructose Cor in nature you would never encounter pure fructose you would never encounter pure sucrose in nature and yet the studies that vilify sugar are done with those and then conflated and you see people I mean you know this is just respectful but I'll call it out you know um on huberman's podcast uh there was a physician recently Dr Robert lustig just talking horribly about fructose but conflating research done with isolated fructose or done with isolated sucros in animal studies or in human studies again with isolated molecules and really not giving a different perspective I don't want people to make fruit or fruit juice their whole diet but I don't think we need to fear it and there's an interesting story here which is oh the problem is not the fruit the problem is not the fruit juice it's taking away all the information that's associated with it in nature and the same is probably true of seed oils yeah right because what is a seed oil it's an industrial byproduct of a sunflower seed right or a rape seed or a soybean foods that humans have probably eaten in small amounts historically but when you take all the information out of it and you distill it and you make concentrations of things that humans would have never experienced we end up with massive problems as hum especially when you deum it with hexane you deodorize it with sodium hydroxide 45 degrees and turn it ran yeah I mean we talked about this on our last podcast but I you I got censored by the seed oil Society of Canada which I didn't even know or canola oil Society of Canada and um and and I was like look I didn't say canola plants were bad I said that industrial processed canola oil is bad right and and you know anytime you're adding hexane and sodium hydroxide and high amounts of heat to turn something rancid well canola plants are bad there's no such thing as a canola plant it's a rape seed plant rape seed and um apparently you can't even say rape seed on YouTube I don't know rape seed it's it's one word guys did I just lose my YouTube channel but what's interesting is that you by the way why can't you say rape seed on not not to it has because it has the word rape oh okay okay can you say consensual sex seed I don't know okay okay but you know rape seeds are not it's illegal to sell rape seed oil in the United States it's also illegal to sell mustard seed oil because they have a mononitrated fat called arusc acid in them right and so this is the problem that in order to make canola oil which is an acronym for Canadian Oil low acid there's no such thing as a canola plant Canada said hey we've got these rape seeds let's figure out a way to do this they genetically modified a rap seed plant to be low arusc acid but it still has significant amounts of arusc acid a fat that has been associated with heart lesions in the studies and so this is concerning you're eating two to 3% arusc acid I believe is the number in canola oil native rape seed plants have 30 to 40% but you're still getting some we talked a lot in the last podcast that we just did about C cative stress yes and so do you really want to be eating this oil do you really want to be eating excess amounts of linolic acid from any seed oil but canola specifically no I don't think any human has ever really gone up to a rape seed plant and said yum let me eat this like it's never it's never even been a food for humans and now it's probably the single most consumed seed oil around it's touted as healthy by the American Heart Association because it lowers your cholesterol wow don't you know they don't tell you that it oxidizes yeah the oxidized cholesterol so um let's let's sort of take a a little wander down the the road of cholesterol because um I certainly don't have the body of knowledge on cholesterol that you do but anecdotally um as I mentioned you know we didn't see a single centenarian that did not have what we would consider clinically elevated levels of LDL cholesterol so LDL cholesterol over 99 nanograms per deciliter and I think a lot of people don't understand that cholesterol is actually not a fuel source right it's it's a construction material one of the main construction materials in our body we build hormones we build cell walls cell membranes we make vitamin D3 we make coloc calciferol from cholesterol and so it's it's a very necessary compound and yet it is vilified because in my opinion it's at the scene of the crime um but not the one pulling the trigger and so talk a little bit about cholesterol and maybe some of the challenges and misconceptions in the medical community surrounding cholesterol yeah I think cholesterol is is really the Crux of so many conversations because when humans eat more saturated fat from animals whether it's butter Tallow ghee a steak and they eat less seed oils there is a physiologic thing that happens that the apob which is just part of just just a metric that sort of reflects LDL cholesterol in a little more sophisticated way LDL apob containing lipoproteins go up and this triggers all sorts of alarm bells in medical offices across the country and the nric reaction is here's a Statin so let's just consider this I like when humans eat a diet that is evolutionarily consistent that essentially mirrors what humans have been doing for hundreds of thousands of years and and they get rid of seed oils and LDL cholesterol goes up a little bit that's bad because you know the position of Western medicine is called the response to retention hypothesis and is essentially that there is a direct geometric relationship between the amount of apob containing lipoproteins in your blood and the rate at which you accumulate atherosclerosis in your veins the more apob containing lipoproteins in your blood the more you get plaque in your arteries except when that's not true and except when that's not true except for except for the many instances when that relationship does not exist and there are so many of these relationships out there that Western medicine ignores wildly but here's the problem that if you look at our population as a whole As westernized Americans in general there are multiple studies suggesting that 88 to 93% of us are metabolically unw some form of insulin resistance right pre-diabetes and that's a big number and that's 93 to 88% have at least one metric of metabolic syndrome and I would say that means you have some Cascade beginning in your body of insulin resistance AKA metabolic dysfunction right even the American Heart Association admits that half of Americans are either pre-diabetic undiagnosed diabetes or diabetes over 150 million people according to the American Heart Association have some form of insulin resistance metabolic dysfunction wow I would argue it's closer to 90% but even the AHA claims it's over 150 million of 330 million plus Americans and so when we have a position when we have a context of metabolic dysfunction yes there is a direct geometric relationship between apob and atherosclerosis progression but what if we don't have metabolic dysfunction the relationship completely changes it it essentially goes to almost zero there's still a very very small relationship but we also know that no study is perfect there are other things in our environment that can damage the endothelium but I think that if you if you argue as Western medicine does that apob is causal right right because if you have more APO and it's not causal what's the big deal but it has to be causal it has to directly injure the endothelium on the inside of blood vessels if you argue that apob is causal in atherosclerosis then why in someone that's metabolically healthy does it really not have much of a relationship between a closis or even a very small relationship aerosis and why in someone that's diabetic is the relationship very clear and extremely intense like the geometric relationship is much more a much higher slope so there's a discordance here in the actual philosophy around apob B if apob is truly damaging the endothelium why is it that you have centenarians in your mortality data that all have high levels of apob yeah and they're not dying of atherosclerosis what's going on these examples are Myriad of ordance is places where apob levels don't seem to correlate to the progression of atherosclerosis right and it's generally in people men and women who are insulin sensitive so how can you say that apob is injuring the endothelium when there's clearly something else going on and there's all sorts of other arguments in Native human biology we don't get atherosclerosis in veins we only get it in arteries so you have the same amount of apob it's a continuous system in your vein as you do in an artery but an artery is a higher pressure system with a much higher propensity to have damage to the endothelium denuding to the endothelium right so if you look at the literature in medicine and my God I want to debate Peter a about this you do yeah for sure and everyone else that that you know is claiming that apob b is is the Boogeyman and and that apob is causal if you look at the literature it's just it's it's there are so many discordances here and it's just so clear that if APO B is causing the problem why are there so many uh why are there so many instances where doesn't look like it's happening and then it's clear the endothelium must be damaged for atheros atherosclerosis to start so what damage is the endothelium oxidation oxidation poor repair from insulin resistance heavy metals toxins in our environments right so if you have damage to the endothelium yes apob is involved but this is necessary but not sufficient so if you have a component that's involved and you have a system where there is constant damage to the endothelium like diabetes or metabolic dysfunction is it possible that apob looks like more apob is bad but it's not actually beginning the process right and then interestingly or connected with that what about someone that doesn't have ramp and endothelial dysfunction happening what about someone that doesn't have ramp and endothelial damage we all have a little bit but I think in those of us that are metabolically healthy we can repair it we all have high pressure with bifurcations in Our arteries we're all going to get some denuding of the endothelium of our arterial walls but I believe that we can repair it and so this is the problem it's it's just basically saying something else initiates apob as a causal factor I completely disagree with that verbage I think it's wrong and I think that is propagating a a false narrative in medicine it's incorrect philosophically to say that and the problem then like I said is that people are scared of eating foods that are good for them yeah and they're scared of eating foods and connected with that the American Heart Association the American College of card College of Cardiology will recommend canola oil to you because it lowers your apob and they will tell you to limit saturated fat because it raises your apob when we also know that there are so many populations of Free Living humans with huge amounts of saturated fat in their diet and high cholesterol quote unquote that don't have any incidence of atherosclerosis in their diets it's just they're not eating processed foods and the piece that always gets left out I know I've been ranting and it's complicated I love this um the piece that always gets left out and we hinted at this earlier is that as polyunsaturated fatty acids in seed oils lower your LDL lower your apob they're also increasing oxidized LDL and LP little a which are much stronger risk factors for cardiovascular disease but why is that never addressed that there's this huge discordance here so now your your a b goes down and these other ones rise there's greater degrees of endothelial damage and oxidation and that initiates the process and then it initiates the process even though you've controlled for your AP a AP B and we have randomized control trials that show this I mean the data regarding seed oils and this is hopefully a debate with Lane that's going to happen on seed oils at some point the data on the randomized control trials on seil oils are are interesting they're complicated there's about 10 randomized control trials that have been done in the last 60 to 70 years where researchers have replaced saturated fat in the human diet with seed oils the problem is that in seven of them the control arm that was high saturated fat was given a lot of trans fat because it wasn't until the last 20 to 30 years that we realized that trans fat was bad for humans so when people in the health space who are saying that the research says seed oils are benign are quoting studies or metaanalyses they're basing The Meta analyses The Meta analyses include trials or are they're quoting studies that are fundamentally flawed where the control group is eating trans fats but there are three trials where that doesn't seem to have been a major case and these are Minnesota coronary study perhaps the best study that's been done on seed oils versus saturated fat Sydney diet heart and rose corn oil stud and these were all seed oils versus saturated fat essentially yeah and they all found that seed oils were worse Minnesota coronary was we talked about this in the last podcast we did suppressed yeah right it took years for that trial to be published anel keys the guy that initiated the whole saturated fat fearing uh you know right uh sort of uh Cascade with his seven country study was one of the authors he was one of the researchers on Minnesota coronary but didn't want to be Associated because the results were not what he wanted to see the results were buried for decades and what they show us pretty clearly is that when you Satur substitute saturated fat from animals with seed oils you have higher rates of cardiovascular disease and increased rates of death wow big surprise you're putting more fats into your membranes that are fragile they're breaking down more and the problem with seed oils is that they contain this fat linolic acid right which accumulates in our bodies so we talked about cumulative toxicity in our podcast about fluoride about cobalamin even folic acid being unmetabolized but I think that this is the problem with linolic acid that this is a compound that we never would have been exposed to and these amounts historically evolutionarily as humans but it's in nuts and in small amounts yeah very small amounts have you seen how many so Americans eat an average of five to six tablespoons of seed oils per day you would have to get over two and a half pounds of sunflower seeds to get that much linolic acid okay 65 to 75 ears of corn okay right like the numbers are staggering over two pounds of soybeans you know like I think it's two and a half to three pounds of soybeans to get the equivalent of that it's just we would never have gotten this amount of linolic acid in our diet it's in nuts in small amounts and you eat a small amount of nuts right how many nuts are in the human diet historic small amounts like you have to crack every single nut it's very hard and you think about we probably ate some nuts and seeds I would argue we did that when we were starving as like a fallback food but then you see it concentrated in the seed oil you can eat massive amounts and if you look at a bag of laay potato chips there's probably I think what do we calculate like 15 to 17 tablespoons of seed oils in that whole bag wow you would never have gotten that historically and whether it's fried in canola oil we didn't even eat seeds right right so this is an evolutionarily inconsistent amount of compound linolic acid that then gets stuck in our bodies cumulative toxicity we know that cumulative toxicity cumulative toxicity and the trick here if you look at the research carefully is that the linolic acid in your fat cells that is reflective of your consumption it's not in the plasma because plasma gets turned over and this is the other confusing part when people are looking at seed oil consumption but if you look at linolic acid in fat cells the more lenic acid in your fat cells the higher your rate of card vascular disease and that is never discussed because people always look at blood and the problem with blood is that linolic acid is metabolized by two enzymes Delta 6 desaturates Delta 5 desaturates into pro-inflammatory mediators and the people that have the lowest amount of linolic acid in their blood do the best excuse me people have the lowest amount of lolic acid in their blood do the worst because they're pushing it all to inflammatory Pathways and so they look at the literature and say hey look people that have more lolic acid do better in their blood people that have less do worse therefore more lolic acid is better but what they're really showing is that you don't want lenic acid to go down that inflammatory pathway and make arachadonic acid or the other Downstream mediators which are highly inflammatory for humans so so for somebody that's listening to this podcast um you know how do they go on a journey to avoid high amounts of linolic acid like where do you find it how do I avoid it obviously meats and organ Meats but um you know because uh what if I'm eating vegetables nuts fish chicken uh avocados small amounts in all that right Tallow 1 to 2% linolic acid in Tallow 1 to 2% in butter nuts can have 15 to 25% but you're not eating six pounds of nuts right right right if you tolerate nuts right I talked earlier I think a lot of people do better without nuts in terms of their digestion but if you tolerate nuts small amounts right you're not eating 5 pounds of nuts right right it's concentrated in seed oils and and the seed oils are corn canola sunflower safflower soybean grape seed peanut this is why I'm not a fan of peanut butter yeah right I'm not feing peanut butter either peanut butter is made from the worst microt toxin point it's made it's made from moldy moldy peanuts and you're basically making a seed oil it's not an industrially processed seed oil but what do you think is on the top of peanut butter that's natural peanut butter non-natural peanut butter the jippy that I used to eat when I was a kid right they put things in it to prevent the separation of the oil if you get the natural peanut butter which I thought was better you have the seed oil on top and that's that's 30% linolic acid this is the problem with almond butter too you're making a seed oil and that seed oil is becoming r it's on top it's highly oxidized and you're concentrating lolic acid you're going to have a much harder time unless you're spooning that seed oil into your mouth you're going to mix it back up in the peanut peanut peanut butter or the almond butter you're going to get less but it's highly rancid and oxidized when you do that so wow this is the problem with nut Butters you're not meant to do this you're not meant to grind up nuts and leave them for months on a shelf they just they're fragile this is the problem with so another one we should talk about is flax seed oil yeah highly oxidized highly oxidized that's a seed oil and that's considered like the Panacea of healthy oils it's he bro yeah I mean I I literally know I happen to agree with you but I literally know people that actually start their day off with uh half a tablespoon to a full tablespoon flax seed oh yeah and people will this is another thing important to consider people will also start their day off with a spoonful of fish oil if you're going to do fish oil you better know that brand is really good and you don't want to do fish oil in a spoon because that is so highly oxidized when it's exposed to the air so you can't spoon fish oil horrible idea and any of these oils they just break down over time so you just got to be really careful so avoid the seed oils that's a that's the first step and then if you want to get really granular and decrease the amount of linolic acid in your diet you want to do grass-fed beef versus grain-fed beef ruminants convert poly uncrated fats to mon unrated fats so ruminants can saturate we can't do this as humans but it's really the monogastric animals where the polyunsaturated fats accumulate pigs the eggs of chickens um chicken meat this kind of stuff so fatty chicken eggs or fatty pork that's fed corn and soy is going to have more lenic acid in the fat than it would if it were a naturally wild chicken or wild hog yeah so again don't let perfect to be the enemy of good but understand that if you're really trying to get this dialed in I think that an important metric for humans would be how much linolic acid is in your diet and one of the things I would love for you guys to do a 10x I don't know if you could ever do this is actually sample the amount of linolic acid in adapost tissue and you can track that wonder if we could do it an adapost tissue we could we could do it in the blood blood is good because we talked about that yeah you'd have to you'd have to you'd have to just do an [ __ ] little biopsy just a little pull some adapost tissue out you can do it in red blood cell membranes but it's not great either the fat is really predictive like I said The more linolic acid you eat the more that ends up in your fat tissue the more that's in your fat tissue the higher rate of cardiovascular disease so what are we arguing about you know well we're arguing about poorly done studies and confusion over blood levels of linolic acid because people don't understand how lenic acid is metabolized right and again let's just back up you know 15,000 years we would never have had this move you know back up a hundred years seed oils are machine lubricant yeah yeah yeah I was like a submarine lubricant and let me just mention this I know and then we'll we'll stop with seed oils but 120 years ago 130 years ago all Americans ate were animal fats and the rates of cardiovascular disease were a fraction of what they are today so anyone who wants to argue that apob going up or animal fats are the cause of cardiovascular disease you got a really hard argument to make because there's a there's a natural experiment of uh many millions of Americans from 1900 or 1875 showing very low rates of cardiovascular disease all we ate was very very low animal fat all we ate and then something happened in 1950 with anel keys the seven country study Eisenhower had his heart attack his cardiologist was Paul Dudley White and the American Heart Association got a $1.7 million donation the equivalent to $20 million today from Proctor and Gamble who made Chrisco wow and this is and then the American Heart Association begins talking about how saturated fats are bad polyunsaturated fats are good and there are literally advertisements from the 1960s talking about how you should polyunsaturate your family is that yes MAA corn oil and and that's when we got margarin and and we got all of these like industrial process to I forget I forget the name of the housewife they had the ad it's tonight Maggie polyunsaturated her whole family with mola corn oil you can find them oh wow and you know we can look at and there's still there's still a you know some people that are of that conventional wisdom that fat makes you fat I mean I I have female bants that won't even wouldn't touch a ribbi wouldn't eat an avocado would never touch a raw nut um or coconut oil or olive oil or or grass-fed butter or ghee or Tallow because they believe that fat makes you fat um and they're and they're very heavy um right we know sugar makes you fat but well sugar probably short circuits are satiety mechanisms sugar probably leads to overgrowth of bacteria in the gut which leads to lipid polysaccharide body insulin resistance too is all you know core component of obesity it's a huge component of obesity and I think if you look at it insulin resistance is probably coming from long-term overc consumption of linolic acid at a cellular level and it's it's chronic toxicity right because in the short term if you look in the short term seed oils don't create insulin resistance they sometimes even make you more insulin sensitive but I think it's so hard to do a long-term study on seed oils and insulin sensitivity but if you look at the mitochondria of people who have insulin resistance they're not doing oxidative phosphorilation they're not doing oxidative glycolysis o they're not moving nutrients through the cellular energy Pathways and this can all be connected with changes to the mitochondrial membrane disruption of the electron transport chain leakiness of the proton gradient across the inner and mitochondrial Matrix spaces so there's a lot of really interesting hypotheses it's impossible to do randomized control trials about this or they've already been done like Meda coronary trial but the mechanistic ideas here are really interesting that accumulation of linolic acid and probably other polyr fats in your membranes leads to breakdown of our Energy Systems and this is where insulin resistance begins it's one of the pathways what what do you really see as some of the challenges in the medical community and why would it not be adopted as more mainstream I mean clearly you make an amazing argument I actually agree with your argument um but I I mean how is it that Physicians today conventionally educated Physicians today are not um ascribing to dietary changes lifestyle changes as major impacts on on chronic disease I mean I think if your eyes are open you you're you're looking at this we also talked about this on the podcast too and you're like look at the spending look at the rising chronic disease look at the mortality rates mortality by the way in the United States for the first time in 110 years is going backwards um and I was a mortality expert for decades so I think between the 2018 variable basic table and the 2022 variable basic table first time we're actually seeing life expectancy go backwards which doesn't make sense given the amount of technological advances and and science all things we have to do to keep people alive um but what is it about the adoption you know one of my opinions is if we don't fix the food supply we will never fix chronic disease 100% And and you know but what what is your opinion on that I mean what is what is keeping the medical community from there's a maximum that I heard um will you look who this is um because I want to get the name out there so people can find this maximum it's that the amount of effort required to undo [ __ ] is 10 times required is 10 times greater than the amount of effort required to create it right do you hear that the amount of effort required to undo [ __ ] is 10 times greater than the amount of effort required to create it wow what we learn first as humans stays in our brain right it's hard to undo what your mom told you about broccoli right even if even if you get a lot of gut pain even if you get a lot of gut pain right and I'm not saying your mom is [ __ ] and I use the [ __ ] term all the time and people say I'm [ __ ] so whatever it's all fair game right yeah All is fair and Love and War um but it you know the problem is that what's the name of the guy brandolini's law yeah brandolini's law brandolini's law good old say [ __ ] no I think it does I think it does it actually say [ __ ] in there yes it does yes did he do a randomized clinical trial I mean yeah this is this is a meta analysis showing that it's 10.2 times harder right but the idea is this you come into medical school as a bright-eyed intelligent enthusiastic medical student and you are taught things and it is 10 times harder to undo all that teaching that medical students have all now been indoctrinated propagandized we're told in medical school on the first day half of what you learned is is wrong half of what you learn is wrong and when a doctor speaks out about it you get pillared right you're told half of what you learn is wrong and then when a doctor says I'm questioning the medical system the medical system will absolutely try and destroy you discredit you you're a charlot and you're a quack whatever right it's the same thing so half of what we learned in medical school is wrong the trick is just witch half right and it's really hard for us to change our mind as humans and a lot of Physicians humans are also tribal we look at other Physicians and we say this is what we believe we believe that statins are good for cardiovascular disease I believe statins have a place I don't think they're I think they're overprescribed and underappreciated in terms of their side effects but we believe that statins are good we believe that saturated fat is causing heart disease we believe that red meat is bad for you we believe that um you know your lower your rape will be the better this is what we believe this is our tribe and we sing and we sing and chant over a fire sponsored by fizer you know about about about how good we are as Physicians and like I said earlier I believe almost all Physicians are intelligent and want attention we're just [ __ ] brainwashed and it's really hard to un-brainwash people man it's really hard yeah know it it 10.2 times harder to un-brainwash someone yeah so so then what are the what are the basics I mean somebody because you know again my I I really have tried to steer my audience to the masses right I mean we talked about this earlier where you know instead of ultra woke biohackers talking to ultra woke biohackers and I know you don't like that term but I'm going to use it and you know bringing a message down to the Mass is that here's what you here's what you've learned that's wrong it's wrong you know I've I've actually started doing this thing I call lateral shifts where I take I go into anybody's cabinet and I I take whatever it is that they like to eat and I say okay I'm not going to add a dime to your budget I'm going to not change the flavor profile I'm just going to massively shift the nutritional profile and show you how you can go from like this Dan and yogurt with fruit on the bottom and high fructose corn syrup to um you know a whole Fat Greek yogurt with a fist full of berries and some natural honey and still you'll actually be more Sati satiated have a better nutritional profile and you actually won't miss the taste of that um and so you know talk a little bit about the starting point um for someone because it seems it seems extreme for me to go do I have to go just all meet all the time right out of the gate or like what are some of these steps I can take you know to to to get going I think I love the idea of lateral shifts I think it's just the idea of better than yeah wherever you are now do better than tomorrow yeah you said something earlier progression versus perfection don't let perfect be the enemy of good don't let perfect be the enemy of good yeah yeah so in other words don't not don't do nothing because you can't be perfect exactly right and and I and I take the opposite coin side of the coin that you know a lot of what you espouse what I espouse it's not fear mongering it's actually clearing the air knowledge is power yeah it's knowledge is power but it's also making things easier do you know how easy it is to eat like that I mean you know it's how much easier it is to navigate a restaurant um how much easier it is to navigate a grocery store how much easier it is to navigate you know food choices when you're when you're not in your own home and cooking your own food if if you know that whole grass-fed Meats organ Meats um you know berries honey you know that that there are really nutritious food choices that you can make pretty much available anywhere um and you don't have to be like hyper attentive to exhaustively reading every label yeah it's understanding that just do better than what you're doing now and like you said there's a shift between I think First Step the smallest amount of ultra processed foods you can eat right less things that have had all the information that we would have always associated with them historically evolutionarily Stripped Away less chips less seed oils less of that stuff and just eat whole plant foods and whole animal Foods what what um and hopefully some organs I'm still you know I I haven't gotten there on the a you you know I get I get my grass-fed Meats from this place called Parker pastures in in um Colorado and and I love them because they they're their family farm and they don't vaccinate their cattle it's all grass-fed grass finished but um she does these organ Blends where she takes the you know the grass-fed the the the hamburger meat and and mixes it with organ meats and it's delicious right straight to the organ Meats is still like the liver is still still a little tougher me it's probably always going to be that way I mean when I first started eating liver I was in medical school and I would literally gag yeah I just I would gag I remember it's such an acquired taste if you give it to a child when they're eight months or a year old and they haven't had years and years of Cocoa Pebbles and these other flavors they're going to be fine with it love this stuff yeah but my niece and nephew are 4 and six you know my mom is 73 my dad is 73 and so I realized I mean I want people to eat fresh organs but this this this like Gap here was why I built my first company so Harden soil makes the desicated organ supplements brought you some with testicle by the way let's fire it up yeah no no actually I'm not going to eat a testicle on my podcast is Caple testicle oh capsule testicle okay you can take it with you yeah cuz I've seen people on Instagram like I'm like I'm not quite there yet no I'll give it to you after the podcast I got I got a bottle of like testical capsules but what's so interesting is that you know my have some sticks too that I want I do have some sticks I'm going to get you this too yeah um but the you know my my um here give you my my sister so my niece and neew four and six and they won't eat liver but you can take the capsule and empty it into their smoothie and they never know right right how cool is that my mom takes the the beef organ supplement from Harden soil all the time and this is another thing that I'm super proud of so you got to try one of these beef sticks so I just this is the second company that I've built and it's really humbling to build these companies because it's just really cool to think about doing things in the world that help make people's lives better I really only I want people to eat Whole Foods and I want people to eat Fresh Foods and so I want to make the highest quality stuff and this is what come this is sort of the the agency that comes with the the work that I've done in the world is I can build this I could never have built this you know a few years ago but how cool is this to be able to build this so this is a grass-fed grassfish meat stick the first of its kind in the world really yeah with organs in it so this contains liver and heart in the beef stick okay I went to Australia to see the Farms that we sourc from these are the most beautiful Farms I've ever seen in my whole life really in Australia Green Pastures right on the ocean it's like literally million dollar real estate and it's cows grazing on grass oh dude that's freaking awesome you guys want to try yeah give to these guys I'm not kidding like I'm not just saying that because you're on yeah I'm like I'm not going to sit here with Paul salino be like that's awful no it's freaking good it's grass-fed beef grass-fed liver grass-fed heart vinegar I think I think this mix is so much better cuz the liver has a call it a gy taste or whatever yeah pretty intense what do you think isn't that good and it's important because a lot of a lot of women fear this stuff too and like most of us have a very difficult time meeting our protein needs and certain protein sources like whey protein and others can be as little as 20% absorbable this is 99% absorbable and it has all of the essential amino acids that the body needs to build lean muscle to recover to improve our exercise performance and most importantly to repair after we have intense exercise so this is called perfect Amino by Body Health it's like I said 99% of absorbable it only has 2 calories eventually the caloric intake has virtually no caloric intake it will not break a fast it tastes amazing you mix it in water I take this literally every single morning if you're working out in a fasted State you have to take a full spectrum amino acid prior to your workout to preserve your lean muscle and make sure that you're recovering properly and again it will not break your fast so the caloric impact is virtually zero you get all of the full spectrum amino acids it tastes wonderful I use it every single day you can go to bodyhealth.com Ultimate that's bodyhealth.com slul imate and look for the perfect aminos they actually come in capsules if you're on the go or it becomes in several flavors that they make in a powder which I love it's flavored with natural um uh means of flavoring so there's no artificial sweeteners in here so this is one of my absolute favorite products give it a try if you're working out at all you need a full spectrum amino acid go to bodyhealth.com timate that's bodyhealth.com ultimate I love their lab tested products you can actually see the absorption rate for all of their products they've got great electrolyte protein combinations my favorite is the perfect aminos bodyhealth.com timate and now back to the ultimate human podcast I love there's like a voice off camera right now like Chomps everywhere this is different than Chomps so this is air dried I we'll talk about this just for a second but Chomps we don't have to name their brands they're cooked right they're cooked and when they cook something they have to put lactic acid and sodium nitrate or sodium nitrate or celery powder which is just a standing for the same things in it these are 5 days air dried at 78 degrees Fahrenheit they never get heated above 78 they're in they're in a cooler for 5 days getting air dry you find these people I built this oh I built this you found the farm and then you built the process yes wow yes can I invest maybe I think you probably can be oh no it's it's actually awful no but it's so cool to to build things like this and we were talking off camera before the podcast like doing what we do is a blessing and a curse because it means that I can't make [ __ ] products cuz my fans will keep me honest right right like hardened soil will never make something in a plastic bottle you know we'll never use garbage ingredients we'll never use garbage ingredients in this I never wanted to put celery powder or lactic acid in these and the way that it comes out when it's air dried is so much better than when it's cooked now having said that better than can also be a grass-fed beef stick in a grocery store that's cooked that can be way better than a slim gym right right but what's exciting for me is to give people opportunities to to have something that's like the quality that I really want that I'm proud giving to my sister and my family and my niece and nephew and my my niece and nephew go crazy for beef sticks they do yeah like young kids all they do is snack I didn't know this I don't have kids but like eat all the time so it's cool to create things in the world that make people's lives easier agree and also have this message behind them and it's been a it's been an incredible journey because i' i' i' I've been on a journey to to to build a chemical Free Living brand and you know eventually human it's very hard for cleaning products for toothpaste for dishwasher detergents and you know soaps and all kinds of things because I again you know back to just micro poisoning ourselves yeah did Death the [ __ ] cumulative dose toxicity so so where're is Paul saladino the the evolving carnivore MD where where is all of this headache headed to um you know products like these that are to to help feed the masses I actually happen to agree that if we don't fix the food supply we'll never fix chronic disease yeah um is that where your passion projects are now no from surfing yeah surfing is a huge passion of mine these are just side projects I think that I feel most compelled to like I mean this will sound cheesy just fight the good fight you know there's a and I don't know that it's necessar a fight it's just there's a lot of discordant voices in the health space and it's confusing for people and I think that a lot of these people are well-intentioned and smart I just think it's important to try and have respectful discussions on different views respectful is the main thing yeah respectful discussions on different views and I want to try and create ideas and content for people that helps them navigate because I imagine people are listening to this going this is different than what I've heard right they've heard somebody else on a podcast say worry don't worry about or like you're you should be concerned food vegan yeah be a raot food vegan or be worried about budg spikes or honey is horrible or fruit is horrible or vegetables are great for you and I don't think vegetables are horrible but like I said there's a time and a place and maybe some people are different than others and so I I think that mostly what I'm excited about now is just trying to create content in in the most um in the most you know Sovereign and the most consistent way that I feel good about you know in my heart that's like putting ideas in the world that help people navigate this confusing landscape yeah you know in the most truthful way to myself like because I just think that I'm a doctor you know I spent decades doing this I have a doctoral degree and it's still confusing for me it took me it takes time to read 10 different randomized control Tri trials on seed oils and realize hey they're using trans fat they're using you know a hydrogenated fat in the control group these are not valid studies right how is anyone going to make sense of this stuff yeah no it's very very hard and then you got to look at the you know the uh this disclaimers and and you know the conflicts of interest section sometimes you see that actually the company that's actually putting out a certain drug is actually touting the drugs efficacy and you go well it's hard for me to really trust that and you don't see the whole data you only see the published data you know the 20 I think it's 19 of the 20 people on the USDA guidelines for nutrition in the United States from 20 to 20 to 20 2020 to 2025 have conflicts of interests with pharmaceutical companies food industry Ultra processed food 95% of people who are on the committee that makes our food guidelines in the United States have conflicts of interest 95% and it's going to be the same for the 25 to 2030 guidelines and the guy who's one of the chairs for the 2025 to 2030 guidelines for food in the United States which a lot of people listening to this podcast don't care about but it's what shapes food lunches it's what shapes school lunches yeah and it's what shapes policy and it's what shapes all sorts of things the guy who's one of the chairs for that is the same guy who authored the food Compass study that told us Frosted Mini Wheats were healthier than beef and eggs wow it's the same guy who wrote A meta analysis on seed oils saying they're benign and included all of the studies that are confounded by this trans fat in the control group and it's the same guy who also receives funding from Bungie a seed oil company wow and also I believe ilc which is one of the major sort of conglomerates of ultr processed food so this this guy's name is Darius mozafarian he's at tfts and I can say that because I'm not afraid of getting sued right because it's all true what I just said right it's kind of like you know it's not slander if it's true right it's not a conspiracy theory if you're just following the facts yeah yeah it's it's all true and I mean I've talked to people who have spoken with him I've never spoken with him i' love for him on my podcast come on let's go bro what's his name Darius mozafarian Dar Darius mozafarian U you're invited to the you're being P false podcast and but it's just yeah it's crazy stuff I've spoken to people who have spoken to him you know CI means is a friend of mine he used to work in the sort of process food industry he was a he was a sort of a a policy maker or a an advocate at Coca-Cola so he was in the boardrooms of Coca-Cola when they were planning how do we get in front of this idea and make people think that Hy cor is fine he was part of the enemy you know he was like on the the dark side he came over the rebel Lions right but he you know when he was talking about these ideas with Darius and suggesting publicly that there's perhaps a conflict of interests here Cali told me that like this guy calls him on the phone how can you do this you know this is how we make this is how we fund studies and he was literally like yelling at him on the phone wow so it's crazy and I'm not looking to be disrespectful I'm just saying truth is truth Y and it's it's not slander if it's true no no it's not slander if it's true this is this is so awesome man I love helping you know people like yourself get the message out um I'm going to throw um link to some of your your products into into the show notes where can people find you most of my audience is probably familiar with you but for those that are not where can they find you um how do they find out more about you and and get more guidance from your books and teachings what have you Paul saladino MD on all the socials you find me everywhere yeah I've got a podcast got I'm on all the socials great podcast too that's where you find me so um Paul I ask every guest the same question at the end of the podcast and there's no right or wrong answer to this um it's just a thought-provoking question what is does it mean to you to be an ultimate human I think it's basically living the birthright that we all have to be vital right so I think that our our resting state our the state of lowest entropy which is thermodynamically whatever but uh the state that we should fall back to the state that we have a Birthright to is a happy healthy vital human that can do what they want that can play with their grandkids or their kids like we have this I love this this word Birthright you know we have a Birthright to be way healthier and way more capable than we are told by Society you go to Western medical doctor with any they say it's bad family history you can't fix it most of the time they'll say here's a pill but I think that being an ultimate human is just going back to what is ours as our Birthright this this idea that as humans we can be incredibly vital and just radical humans at our at our Natural State at our Baseline State at our resting you know just at our resting state we are incredibly you know vital humans and that is when that's what happens when we align the way that we're living with the way that we've lived for hundreds of thousands of years as humans I love it it's not feeling amazing it's just feeling normal yeah and normal Is Amazing by today's standard exactly awesome man well thanks for coming on today been awesome and this was one of the easiest conversations I've had in a very long time man lot in comment appreciate you too brother man's handshake I know I'm like reaching around the microphone that's just science