foreign ERS and welcome to the latest episode of the GI huddle um today we've got an affiliate perspective I'm with Will Armitage co-founder of best odds will how are you good morning sir pretty good surviving exciting weekend victory for Arsenal and the Minnesota Vikings so can't complain as a Liverpool fan I can complain but you could argue the success we've had um yeah you've had enough time at the top of the table come on come on it's time for somebody else to have some fun yeah I suppose when you say can't complain yeah I can't complain long term either correct um but yeah um we've got plenty plenty of interesting things to talk about we uh we could talk about a U.S market a little bit later but I want to talk a lot about the UK Market a UK Focus because last week some changes came in a certain operator called Sky bet uh which we wrote about in our GI Friday newsletter um there were some changes for the Sky Bet club and uh as a as a prominent affiliate best odds I wanted to get kind of the affiliate view um how much is five pounds worth to to a better I mean I will explain the details of why five pounds but uh if I were to throw that question out to you uh generally how much is five pounds worth to a sports better you know what could you say learning's worth a huge amount but it all depends on what is one's weekly limits really it's I know there's a lot of Bettors out there there's the sake of it better varies dramatically Across the Nation but there are those who'll say okay I'm prepared to spend eggs this is my entertainment amount I understand this over the weekend on my my Acura or whatever I like to do whatever my sort of ritual is and that's where it is and that is simply how I play and how I decide to play and as a responsible better that is my amount and so be it but I think someone should delve into what they've actually done here and boosting it from the 25 pound to the 30 pound mark I mean one could say we live in an inflationary environment one can say but there's very much a cost of living crisis so is this response on the part of Sky Bet and having done this but from a consumer's perspective yeah there'll be those out there who'll go well hang on why why have you done this I've been doing this for years I'm loyal to you um as people say it's a great retention tool because you can say right if somebody is spending that 25 pounds a weekend on their footy games or their horse racing or whatever they're going to do you you've got that sticky customer by changing the goal post at this stage you've got to think what is the real value in so doing what's going to be the cost to Sky bets units um revenues over the next year by so doing and I guess the proof will be in in the in the cave when they come to eat it we'll find out later absolutely um let me kind of uh outline the exact changes Sky Bet have done because uh I actually first noticed this as a consumer because you know every week I I most weeks um if my wife is listening most weeks not necessarily every week but we do a you know do the do the skybet club uh 25 pounds for a free five pound bet um the goal post as you say were changed uh last week they moved that to 30 pounds which as I say is only five pounds extra but for years 25 pounds was was kind of the limit um it was it was a kind of round number everyone got used to there is a choice of spending 20 pounds to earn that five pound free bet but that's on accumulators build a bets so you know much riskier markets um when it comes to the better Revenue stream for the operator yes yes exactly yeah and yeah it's a good good point good kind of interjection in terms of Revenue stream because in rgi Friday piece last week when we looked into it uh Sky bets uh UK online sports betting revenue is actually around 20 down in q1 and Q2 and the online segment is 32 down so actually from a financial standpoint it's kind of clear why they've raised this but as you say that the problem is will that actually increase the stakes or will customers for example like myself think well I don't want to spend an extra five pounds just to get a free five pound bet maybe I'll spend with another book uh instead yeah yeah in this day and age of responsible gambling is it are you in essence telling your punters you've got about another five in order to get the free beds is that inducements I mean it does open a bit of a kind of work I think another interesting aspect that you read in raising your article was a case of what are the deposit limits set at what are the clips what rates how does it ratchet up and I would hazards uh within a few months the I.T Department of flat will be somebody to be working this to say we've got to change this from 25 to 50 and actually have it in clips of five I'm going to empower the Punta more and say okay it's not going to go from 25 to 50 pounds it can go from 25 to 35 pounds or 30 pounds but you you give put it in the in the hands of the consumer for that that lower tier level you make sure that they are more in control of what they're going to speculate and what they're going to bet I think that's that's the fairness and then that I'm sure that will happen I'm sure already the ramifications are out there and this Monday morning they're probably having discussions about okay somebody came up with this idea how soundly thought through was it was it was it a bean counter who came up with this idea saying this could save us eggs and actually without putting themselves on the feet and shoes of the consumer to see what they say see what they do and I'm sure they probably it won't be like quasi core saying doing his vote fast with the income rate tax from 40 back to 45 I'm sure they'll probably keep this at 30 pounds but they'll they'll make yeah they'll have to um change it to support the deposit limit settings I'm sure that will happen soon yeah thanks for thanks for raising that point uh that was that was mentioned in the article because obviously a better is free to kind of deposit as much as they want uh if they don't have those limits but Sky Bet do go kind of all over the country with their TV adverts saying that joy and the millions of betas who have self-deposit limits and the key thing is it does go up in 25 so if you're raising the Sky Bet from 25 to 30 naturally you have to raise it from 25 to 50. and then you've got that well I've got an extra 20 in there you know why don't I just why don't I just use it whereas um as you say it could be the reverse effectors think oh they're trying to get me to spend 25 pound extra and double my weekly stake I don't want to you know yeah correct and I would Hazard they didn't think that but it's just a natural repercussion of what they have decided upon and now we'll see how they how they clear it up um we're very interesting to see what happens so we're going to look at the UK Market in general obviously obviously about 365 you have this giant that um you know um as you say unless you're a particularly successful better you can you can sort of have fun on that site and stake without you know any um repercussions should we say um but for example uh Sky bet is a good example I think you know build is the number one app in on the market is it now at a stage where it possibly it's so popular but it makes less money because they have all these super boosts they have these free bets and actually it it's almost could become a lost leader for flutter in that sense if that makes sense um I would hope it wouldn't I think if you're if you're part of Florida look at all your the amazing assets you have as part of that whole group you would hope that wouldn't become the case because foreign anybody who's sharp I think actually frankly any sports book or any bookie in the UK that you look at somebody's sharp they don't last very long at all it's as simple as that you know these businesses now uh it's not Gladiator like it was in the old days these are very well-run businesses with intelligent people at the home although sometimes may not listen to the customers but they have to report to their shareholders and they go finding the best means in order to to have the revenues be able to pay the dividends and to pay all the the shareholders accordingly so no I think I think we'll see interesting times but I think they're all pretty similar in that regard and I I would doubt we'll see Sky Bet ever as a lost leader um I think it's it's too big a brand it's got the greatest sonority of being part of sky or deemed to be um and so that's yeah there's a loyal City audience and no matter what we discussed earlier in terms of the the bad Club going from 25 to 30 there's still a hell of a lot of people who'll be loyal to it and um yeah I think they'll keep the keep the revenues kept flying in um so will I think you're you're spot on to say lost leaders is a bit strong of a word because whereas revenue is down it'll still be quite high for Sky Bet um when it comes to the Sky Bet Club then let's say in six months or so um do you think maybe we will look back and Affiliates might look back and see that um punches us just still depositing that extra five pounds and they kind of got away with raising it and you know I would Hazard yes I'm sure there's deposit limit settings will be changed and uh they will facilitate that into sort of eke out the extra fiber um because yeah in it's human nature isn't it if you can see that tantalizing off of a free gift and you just gotta do an extra extra five quid to get that Fiverr back I think yeah people would likely do it but we're very interested to analyze actually what percentage of those who hadn't necessarily done hackers will then shift towards okay I'll do and I can instead of spending the extra yeah so ultimately 10 quid to get the one would I then become a regular acupuncture instead be very interesting to see because again we all know that from this operator uh people are less likely to win on the actors as uh as I discovered this weekend trying to do an actor on the NFL week four and the choosing five legs and getting every single one from foreign yeah I think I think as you may have may have mentioned I'm not sure if I should say it on record but the your tips um usually people who back against them are more successful we've been doing that for about 20 years I I spent time on uh on a dealing desk uh in the naughties and uh I was known for Will's horse racing tips people would just laying to do the opposite and make money that way because my tests were generally terribly poor we focused on on Sky Bet quite a bit and I think Bet365 as we say you know the always doing well um May well see a slight uptick for example I might have gone an extra five for Bet365 almost almost out of uh not spite but just think oh subscribe it if you want more I'll just go with better65 but um if we talk talk about the the kind of UK landscape you have those big players um an interesting name is is the Zone bet which which I often uh I want to say it doesn't but I guess the name is designed but um they've got CEO in in a full maintained CEO so they've got kind of the the workings um of a potentially big competitor but it's difficult isn't it when they're trying to stand out and their offering is ultimately the offering is ultimately the same as all their competitors matter brilliant CEO you bring on board but you then okay what's got to work with um and I know yeah it's funny um and they are they're making there's a lot of money going into be creating the brand out there and what I understand is the rationale that you look at the successive Sky Bet um back over the last 20 years but identify that somebody who were subscribers in this day and age where people have some multiple subscriptions whether it's Netflix or a another Ott provider which now that zone is one of them for sports um they're clearly hoping that they can cross-sell to Their audience and it'll be very interested to see what happens they said they've got a great CEO uh with Copus experience and brains and mouths to make it happen but yeah as you mentioned how does one differentiate what is going to be there the the wow factor there and I guess we'll wait and see and actually a similar one interesting which we haven't talked about yet and it may have gone a little bit under the radar but there's actually uh talksport bet was a brand that was created recently as well I mean um that one we I remember we covered it as news on government Insider but it's sort of slipped under the radar interesting to see how how that kind of pans out as well yeah a tough one to make it's a crowded Marketplace we can never lose sight of that fact and again in terms of differentiation you've got hybrid has it as an incredibly loyal customer base but it's always tough to migrate a customer base from another medium to being to betting so whether it's on social media migrating that customer to a betting site is tough from Radio through to and podcasts through to to padding batting would be tough I think it's it's easier when it's visual so um this is a Sky bet so maybe that zone will be able to do that but um in terms of how is everyone going to bet with that zone and you're watching you're watching your German Bundesliga or you're watching Andrew Joshua fights whatever it may be how he actually replacing the bets and where that's that's the conundrum as you say um a busy Market a competitive market um although when we talk about the UK it's it's almost almost inevitable we kind of touch on the us as well because uh what was interesting is we're talking about this this five pound increase with skybag club which as I say when I saw it I was just like ah why do you do it but then financially if you if you look at the figures you know it doesn't make sense but in the US five pound the five pound increases at the moment with the aggressive marketing you know you're talking deposit free 200 free bets and things like that in in States like New York which uh we did a piece on New York last week which which you you uh took part in in terms of analyzing the affiliate role there but how does the kind of if we look at the UK Market in the US market at the moment and obviously there's many markets within the US any kind of General thoughts from from the affiliate point of view yourself at best dots it's just chalk and cheese it's Polar Opposites uh UK sort of older Marketplace more mature the data in terms of LTV of customers and how you attract them whereas the U.S landscape even though you've still got a lot of companies there who have to report to the shareholders and sort of put that there that's what Academy figures have got to be good yeah that explains why you're prepared to offer some of these I can't have any bonuses that are truly eye watering although what's interesting to know actually is in terms of this time last year some of the figures banded around were in this in the four figures there's very few doing that now yeah um and I think you're seeing a shift in terms of U.S I I think we've probably passed the phase of true sort of I don't use the phrase lunacy but truly eye-popping figures in terms of uh yeah I can't move in the office and I think that there's more Prudence in the market I think in terms of the the quality and the quantity of what's on offer is is reduced suddenly this year compared to last year so I think it's a bit of a sense has come to the market because if you're a mid-tier operator trying to sort of throw around those uh free opening account opening offers which is not it's not a hated business you can't there's no long-term business in that yeah and I think it's yeah it's it's still in sympathy comparatively uh I mean people say it's in sort of bottom of the first quarter or top of the second quarter uh there's still a long way to go many many states haven't yet uh regulated and legalized uh and it'd be interesting when you have some of the if and when you see the lives of Florida Texas or California sign off on it what will the offers be like there uh yeah and also what will the tax rate be as well because that's one of the other discussion points there's the high tax rate in New York at 51 yeah taxpoint is is an important point because I was gonna I was going to ask from what you've seen this uh this more practical approach is that simply a business case in that there was just too much being spent on bonuses or is it a little a little bit about um well yeah I guess it's definitely yes to that first one but how much of it influence our Regulators having and maybe just general kind of responsible gambling commentators as well who kind of say you know what are you doing with those with those kind of numbers yeah I I think there's yes I you heard the net on the head I think it was a case of all four points and probably more as well uh I think there's yeah you can see the template for what's happened over the last two decades in the UK and you've got Australia and I think yeah the US things happen quickly there um they're pretty efficient at what they do for the most part and when you look at this this Market you're seeing what's happening and the evolution of it yeah there's lots of parties and lobbyists at play all across the state very much yeah um so I guess a final kind of uh subtopic we could talk about which uh which is U.S um it's not not quite in the UK yet but but you never know I know you have some opinions on on this on micro betting which is um if you don't mind me saying uh afraid someone else use kind of the tick tock tick tockification so they're much cleaner offer of sports betting and that's kind of uh Jake Paul getting involved with simple bet um I mean I don't know if you maybe want to kind of talk us through that what the trend actually is but but you're I know like I said I know you have some views on it as well yeah there's a lot of noise in the US at the moment they're coming or better but Jake Paul's co-founded um with Jerry leave it a simple bet uh around this idea of microbetting biz what's going to happen on the next pitch what's going to happen on the next play is it the rush play is it uh a throw with a it's a good whatever it can be there's all manner of um of options available to punter given the stop signature some of these U.S Sports um and it's funny I way back in the day um was we were one of the first companies to do what's called binary options which is where you you do a binary bet on the sort of percentage probability of say the footsie being up or down at the end of the day so yeah when we first started it was it was a bet that took that Jason was in UK time 8 A.M to 4 30 p.m that was the duration of the Bears it took about five six years before this product became commoditized and you could then have one minute binaries and I think when you're having people would be able to do it at one minute you get better fatigue um and I think also if you're looking at these markets what is The Vic what is the juice what is the rake what is the margin from a better perspective on these products and how much are the books taking for these what are very binary events is it is it a pitch is it going to be a run play or a pass play it's very binary yeah and I think with these as a consumer one can get fatigue very quickly and I I wouldn't be very interesting how it plays out as to whether or not the American Market American Sports are suited to it and that you'll see people go okay I'm doing this for one game this is great fun this is novelty five games the other people thinking oh hang on no I'm a bit fatigued to this hang on I can't do this sort of the game last three four hours and one really concentrate that long over the course of the game I think what could be interesting is potentially when you're seeing okay there's a penalty kick is he gonna score or not I didn't that's an area where there's less likely to be fatigued so I think so but we'll see it'd be really interesting to see how it pans out um yeah and then of course there's a latency issue I mean people get very excited about it would imagine this on basketball what's going to be the next I lost hang on you guys have 35 second latency of watching the screens that actually what's happening in the stadium uh you probably have about three scores in that time um it's not it's not gonna work so I'm a bit I'm more pessimistic than others certainly I just sort of taking Universal gray head and older than a lot of people in the space and having sort of made the comparisons with the online trading sphere I think it's interesting it'll be very interesting how to play that put it that way yeah I think that those two are very interesting counter points uh my good kinds of pointers I mean the latency issue yeah because just that um the technology in the first place has to be just so much uh the uh the demands on it so much so much higher if you're talking about kind of every every five ten seconds and did you say the the better fatigue um these are probably reasons that the proponents of micro betting will will almost use the exact same reasons but flip them and say oh you can you can bet as much as you want but but as you say if you're you know how do you study form for these things and and sometimes people do just want to sit down watch their team uh in the US maybe Place 50 bucks uh you know on their home team do they care if they have this many throw-ins and sorry not not throwing just the wrong sport but yeah you get my drift there you go yeah um no I guess I guess yeah we'll see what happens as the market evolves I'll be what we're watching it very closely um to see whether the hype and excitement is all is Justified um yeah absolutely yeah but um will thanks very much for your time um as I said I'm Still Still skybag Club it's it's still still topical let's see how that pans out but um good good to talk to you about both sides of the Atlantic Ocean and yeah plenty to planning to watch out for indeed no I love you to charge always and uh have a good week ahead thanks very much and yourself cheers