excited to welcome UNLV head coach Lindy LaRock to the basketball podcast Lorac was voted the 2023 Mount West Conference Coach of the Year her second time winning the honor in three seasons she guided the Lady Rebels to a program record 31 wins during the 2022-23 season and repeated as Mountain West Conference regular season and tournament champions UNLV appeared in consecutive NCAA championships for the first time since going to three straight from 1989 to 1991. UNLV finished the 2022-23 season with division one's third highest winning percentage 9-12 behind only South Carolina and LSU only these three teams won 90 of their games Lady Rebels maintained a 24-game winning streak division one's longest against conference foes and a 23-game home-winning streak division one's second longest Lindy Lorax 72 and 19 coaching record was the eighth best record all time by winning percentage by a division one coach after three seasons Lindy welcome to the basketball podcast thanks for having me I'm excited excited to have you as well and uh what a turnaround uh three years that's quite the process that you've gone through and uh is it faster than you expected or was this what you expected oh well um you know I think taking this job I had high expectations for our program and myself so you know I don't know if I put you know everything you know on a time stamp like like it has been but I'm not surprised uh you know kind of by our success it's not just a product of me but the great people in our University that's really kind of embraced and supported us so um you know it's been it's been great but I think we still have a lot of room to grow of course and I love that statement just that uh you know part of it is coaching is believing in yourself and that self-efficacy that obviously transfers to your players and that belief is such an important part of the coaching process isn't it yeah you know um to kind of be in this job and you've got to have thick skin you've got to be your own champion at times and um you know that it just it can be rewarding it can be gruesome it can be brutal at times but um you know you've got to stay positive and you got to keep picking yourself up having played at Stanford obviously tremendous model for how to build a program and run a program in terms of that I'm wondering when you returned as an assistant coach did you learn something behind the scenes that maybe you didn't realize as a player that has helped you as a coach oh absolutely you know obviously I was coaching before I returned to Stanford and um kind of every stop of my journey has just been critical I think to developing you know as a person and as a coach but definitely going back to Stanford as an assistant uh knowing you know so much about the program from one side then to kind of flip over to the other side you know it obviously it wasn't like some drastic major change but um you definitely get to uh you know experience it from from a new lens and you know in terms of my growth as an assistant and as a coach in general uh I credit you know all of my years at Stanford uh probably more than anything of course and I'm curious is there something specific that stands out to you that uh you know might be able to share with the coaches well I'm sure you know I think even as a player we knew preparation was kind of our key as a team um you know and just how Tara prepares us from scouting reports to practice and and and the work ethic piece that preparation takes and so I kind of already knew that but um and then like you said returning as an assistant you know I think that was even more evident and I think what I've that's one of the key things that I've taken here of um you know having high expectation uh like I said like we started with for you know our staff and our program um and how you kind of achieve that is working really hard uh putting in the work and being prepared for you know anything that can really happen you mentioned being around other programs and of course you did that in one of the great Sherry Cole you got a chance to work with and uh she's been a tremendous supporter of basketball immersion in the podcast and uh one of the things that I've taken away from Sherry is obviously her her focus and her love of teaching and the teaching process itself so I'm just wondering some of your takeaways from that experience of being around her yeah I mean I I was with two with Sherry for two years as your graduate assistant and you know next to Tara she's she's the most influential you know basketball coach and person kind of again in my life and in my career and I mean you hit the nail on the edge she's a teacher first and foremost which you know I'm a I'm a child that comes from a family of Educators and so you know we from the get-go kind of spoke the same language um but the teaching side that she brings to everything and just I mean I I say it all the time she's just a wizard with words I mean just her um you know addiction and how she's able to communicate um you know obviously with staff and players and um written orally I mean that that's now kind of what she's pivoted pivoted to in life with her new book and everything I mean I don't think there's anyone that's better with words that I know um in my life than Cherry Cole absolutely and uh you know talking about your program and getting into you know one of your favorite topics I know is offense and uh you know a bunch of the things that helped shape your success but uh just to give coaches perspective set a single season program record for three-pointers made uh 223 three-pointers attempted 664 and free throw percentage 763 so shooting is a value in your program and uh you know beyond just recruiting great Shooters what are some things within your program that help shape the philosophy and then obviously the execution of those statistics you know I think it's really um I think it's really awesome obviously yes first and foremost we are you know pretty offensive minded around here um and me obviously it starts with me and that's kind of my my biggest thing yes we play some defense but you know whether it's recruiting or just you know talking with our team if we can't score the basketball then really nothing else matters um but you know like you said kind of whether it's some of those statistics you know each year we've um increased our points per game you know upwards of 75 uh which is you know ranked top 25 something in the country uh so we're proud of that and then what's really interesting and what you mentioned is the three-point percentage and the three-point makes um so for sure we value shooting we practice it um you know everyone for the most part on our team like has to has the green light uh they have to be able to be a threat from the perimeter uh so I think it starts there but you know and a lot of coaches ask me we probably maybe have two sets for threes and you know and I think especially with the game of How It's evolving is like everyone wants to be a three-point shooter it's like how many how many different actions you know you see Steph Curry and they run him off a bunch of screens and and all of that stuff but we we approach our three-point shooting actually differently and for us it starts in the paint um you know one of our like identities of our program is scoring in the paint it starts with our post players it starts with our guards getting paint touches and getting to the free throw line so um you know each year we've set a record number of threes and again we have like two plays for threes for scripted threes and so our our Shooters really credit our dominant post players you know and and we've had you know arguably the player of the year two years ago she was and this year she missed it by one vote but Player of the Year in the conference uh in the paint and she has to be doubled and triple teamed so that's how we get our three-point shots um so it's not all of the different sets or initially actions that we run for threes it's that we pound it inside pounded inside with post players with attack in the rim um you know really draw people in and then you kick out offensive rebounds um you know off double teams and there's some pretty good wide open threes to be that well this is fun to talk about because obviously playing through the post is not necessarily in Vogue as much in in some levels of basketball but at your level in most levels uh you know below it's so important to be able to still play through the post um and then three-point shooting is a byproduct so but let's go there it seems like you play through the post particularly in transition so talk to us about your preferred spacing for your posts and then some of the things that you do to help prepare your guards to be able to recognize the advantage inside yeah um uh you know for sure we play through our posts it starts starts there you know as a player I was fortunate to play with some of the best close players ever still to this day um so you know I was a three-point shooting guard myself and I I knew kind of like where where I made my money and it was passing to them first so then you know once they got double teamed it could happen out to me um but in terms of transition you know not just being dominant down there but they're all mobile um all of our post players run light guards um and and that's again kind of what we recruit to but also just you know part of our training and and the conditioning piece um so we you know we have a first post that runs straight to the room again like you know obviously there's a million different kind of schools of thought out there of playing on the perimeter but you know how we kind of are are built it is starts with a with someone running to the rim to draw people to the rim um especially in transition and then for our guards you know we give them the freedom to um they know they have to run hard and they have to run wide but what side of the floor they're on it doesn't matter they can be two guards filling the same side we call that a loaded floor or it can be kind of the traditional balance floor you know like a right lane left lane um and they'd have to they know they have to run hard and wide and deep all the way to the corner so again just drawing people down to the Baseline drawing the defense down to the Baseline um and I think you know for us that's how we've had success in transition it opens for for our guards and then obviously you've got to kind of pick your poison are you gonna you know sag in and help on that post player that's dominant that's right at The Rim in transition you know so then you've got some great looks from three um or are you going to stay wide and leave you know another post player you know one-on-one down there which we're happy with that too so in transition it seems like guards run to Corners to uh obviously space and create gravity uh is there a preferred place then for your post are you trying to run them opposite lane line you're trying to run the middle of the rim you know different philosophies exist or they just have a spacing template where they can go to these possibilities yeah so you kind of again just coming back to our post players you know unlike again kind of some of the norm across the country as we play two traditional cosplayers so that are interchangeable both of them can be on the Block both of them can be on the perimeter which again helps our scoring help helps just kind of our spacing so whoever is first is run into the rim whoever is second you know kind of in that trail spot is you know in the opposite like Pro lane from the ball typically the point guard um and behind them you know so we we play a four round one but our posts are interchangeable so our guards are definitely running deep to the corners you know we're not stopping at the wings again just to draw people down that just creates a whole bunch of room for our guard to our point guard or whoever has the ball to create and that trail post um is capable of shooting three so they're spotting up um you know being ready in the trail spot or that opposite Pro Lane and that's really obviously where we get a lot of high low looks um being able to go direct and in uh you know I think that's for us that's the hardest spot for people to double from so you know if we if we aren't kicking it up for three or going inside or attacking a basket then we love to you know reverse it from that trail post to First lokai in before initiating more offense yeah I love that I'm glad you went to the high low because I saw that on film as well and uh talk to us about developing that high low pass or high low skip look because that's another way you say it's a byproduct to be able to create that three it's obviously that advantage of the help having the help on the post yeah you know passing is just man what a fun fundamental skill that to be honest is just constantly getting overlooked in skill development you know you see all the videos and people dribbling between the cones and doing all these fancy things or working on one-footed floaters and all these fancy shots but man passing is just you know it for us it is one of our most important skills you know our assistance kind of joke that I've got you know the Lindy LaRock Passing Academy when we get freshmen I'm like you guys are coming down here with me and we're learning how to pass you know right and left hand outside hand finding the seams um you know old school Camp style of you know two-hand chest pass not just you know one dominant hand so I think it starts with us practicing a lot and then you know for the Post players they've just it just takes a lot of Reps for them to kind of learn to read the defense so we do a lot of breakdowns in in some position work and either getting some guys out there or or um you know them playing defense on themselves and telling the defense to kind of mix it up you know they've got to be able to read if if they're you know kind of sagging off and going to take away the high low then you've got to be able to make that shot um or if they're pressuring you then you've got to be able to make a pressured high low pass um you know and still get a great look with without a turnover so you know we're not perfect by any means but that is a huge piece to kind of you know what we do so if that's the case then you've got to practice it a lot and and we do so I'm curious your thoughts on this because one of the challenges in obviously developing passing is doing it unimposed or on air you know you don't get the decisions and you don't get the pressure of the visual stimuli and the distracting info and all that different stuff so you mentioned connecting it to breakdown um can you give us a perspective on that like you're doing it on air but then you're connecting it to the breakdown can you talk about how you connect those two things yeah I mean for me you know like we could do a whole podcast on passing because I would love to coach let's go excellent shooting again you can never get a great shot without a great pass and that's that's like kind of our our Forte so um I mean we do the basic like partner passing and I I do believe it starts there because the the mechanics the technical side of it is important before you even put defense on them so um we do a lot of just you know dry passing of partner or different passing drills um you know and team passing drills where they're asked to make a right hand a pass you know a left-hand bounce pass overhead skip passes all of that kind of in the same drill um so we do those things every day and then like you said in the breakdowns you know in some position work skill work stuff then I think that's when you add the defense because you know especially some of these young players like not being able to pass with that with their outside hand you know you throw defense on them and then you know that doesn't help them feel success you've got to practice that drive first and build that strength and that skill um you know so then they can actually feel like why they need to do it uh so that's kind of our progression but you know again that's that's we do that every day you know we might we might you know in the practice plan skip over a couple of things but we don't we don't skip overpassing and you know like you said for the three years that we've been here I've I've I'm really proud of the way we've been able to develop our players into passers again because for the most part when we get them they're you know they're not a blank slate they've got a lot of bad habits and pretty quickly just with our diligence and commitment to making it a priority we've we've turned some players into really really good passers um you know and like you said not just being able to mechanically do it but um read defense and make the plays well the emphasis part is so huge I mean if you want to be a good passing team you've already talked about it you emphasize it and it's important to you and it's important to them so that's big um the one thing that I think gets often overlooked when it comes to passing and being a good passer is freedom because we talked about being a good shooter that you have a green light and you have the freedom to shoot it the same thing applies if you want good passers they have to have the freedom to be able to make their own decision so talk to us a little bit about that part of the equation yeah I mean even like relay it back to transition right like everyone on our team practices that fly past to that rim run post player and you know if you're going to be okay with that um or if you're gonna want that you got to be okay with the turnover here or there and how we kind of you know preach it to our team is we're okay with with those turnovers now you've gotta you know we also educate them and and really kind of Coach the basketball IQ piece of it you've got to know some time and score what what were the last three possessions kind of you know what's where's the momentum of the game um and being able to know like if this is a 50 50 pass and you know there's two minutes left and we're down four like that may not be the one um but you know so there's multiple layers to it but you know our players do have the freedom we throw a lot of back door passes and so if if they're scared to throw it it's never going to get there and to be able to get to have them have the courage to throw them um you've just gotta allow it and you know and then they kind of you know they coach themselves and knowing like oh that was too late or too early or too low or something and for the most part they they can self-correct pretty well but uh you know that like you said kind of you've got to have that freedom whether it's a fly passes in transition or back door passes um you know I'd like to think that for every yeah sure for every you know two three maybe four nice passes like you've got to expect a turnover if you want to you know be have them keep confident and have the courage to still throw on well in saying that we'll come back to this question but your your assistive turnover ratio is is outstanding so um you're saying that you're accepting turnovers but you're really not turning it over that much and we'll come back to that the other part I'd love to hear your thoughts on with passing is and and I don't know how you grew up in terms of the way they taught passing but it was very mechanical it was very bottom mechanical and oftenly often it was very limiting as in don't ever throw this past and I believe that's been a big change that has helped programs that Embrace passing and freedom and passing to be better passing teams because you're no longer restricted by don't jump to pass or don't pass with one hand etc etc is that your experience as well yeah I mean you know I I I kind of I dabble back and forth between like the old school new school side side of of things um you know again kind of the layered piece of it we do you know really try to do a good job of of you know increasing our players basketball IQ I think the IQ piece is a skill that has to be practiced and and can get better it's not just something people innately have yes some have more than others lately but it can improve and so whether it's jumping to pass or you know even when I was a player it was like you know a cardinal sin to throw a bounce pass to the wing which makes sense you know a bounce pass is slower they're easier easier to be stolen you know so I kind of like go back and forth on that but then there's you know times and places to where that that is the right pass you know so I think again we try to um you know I try to coach our team and our players of you know nine times out of ten this is the pass you should be looking to make but you know that one time it might call for a different pass and you know you've got to make it too um and if you feel it then then you've got to make it so uh you know some of those kind of principles or passing principles especially you know staying on your feet and different things um we coach those but I don't know if we like penalize them if they do them and a bad outcome happens you know it's more trying to educate them I'm like okay you know you did this and this was outcome like why do you think and for the most part they kind of tell you and they know so um but there's plenty of times where you know you do jump pass and that that's what you have to do to get the ball there and um and it works out so you know it's you know trying to get them to really just like you said have the freedom to make those decisions um not like totally crush them if they make the wrong decision but help them you know try to learn how to make the next right decision and then talking about helping them uh are you asking questions are you using video what are some different ways that you help shape their decision making when it comes to passing outside of just again practice yeah you know video is huge for us we watch a lot of video um but whether it's in games or practice you know I think it catches some of our young players you know off you know catches them off guard a little bit at the beginning but I'm always asking them for their feedback and and what they think you know because ultimately they're the ones out there um playing and for the most part they haven't had to Think Through the game like that so you know when I'm asking questions or like what do you think or what you see you know at first you know freshmen young players they they can't always give me an answer and it's like okay well like that's that's okay but you you got to start thinking like this too and and um understanding why you're making some of the decisions but you know that that happens naturally you know as as players continue to mature the game slows down for them um they create more of an opinion of of what's going on out there uh so we definitely get feedback but film obviously the film doesn't lie and that's maybe one of the the best teaching tools of you know showing like when there's an extra pass that needs to be made or or a driving kick um you know those types of things so again just trying to you use all of the you know resources that we have to help educate them love it and uh you know some of your rankings division one's top 25 teams and field goal percentage 16th uh scoring margin 17th assisted turnover ratio 19 turnovers per game 19th scoring offense 22nd I mean the the question that comes from all that is that can you share some of your keys to playing fast and scoring a bunch but doing so on an efficient level because I think that's the harmony that you've created yeah I mean um I you know I I what I can tell you is just a little bit of how we how we coach and preach in in practice every day um you know I started with it our like the identities of our team is is scoring in the paint and rebounding and then execute it and really those things in order so you know paying touches uh rebounding creating you know second third opportunities offensively and defensively rebounding um and then executing so I think we've done a pretty good job of balancing all of those uh in terms of you know I'm like totally offense obviously we were there but what most people are surprised at is how good of a defensive rebounding team we are um and that's where that's where our offense starts you know if you have to take the ball out you know off a made basket it's hard to run in transition it's not that you can't but it's hard to play fast when you're having to take the ball out um so for us the rebounding like we we pound pound the glass um and and that is a a huge emphasis for us obviously offensively it gives you more opportunities but defensively like if if we're getting out rebounded and other team's getting offensive rebounds then um you know I'm not happy um but you know that's where I think our offensive um you know Catalyst starts is rebounding and then you know people like they the the efficiency side um I think again what what the three-point shooting like it's a lot of credit but it's it's it's pounding the paint it's getting to the basket you know our post players they they're shooting 60 from the field that that's efficient so then when you're shooting 30 35 from three then your numbers kind of look gaudy you know um so our our twos are you know typically um in the paint at the rim and then you know we we have a really good three-point shooters that you know don't feel pressured to make a shot um in order to get the next shot you know we've got really confident Shooters and um you know again kind of similar to the turnover piece of I'm okay with a good early shot you know if you're gonna if you want to play in transition I just did a clinic you know a couple weeks ago on transition offense and if if you want to score and transition then you've got to be okay with early shots you can't want to score and transition and say you know you've got to make two passes before a shot like that's not transition then so um you know the freedom piece the confidence piece are our team knows you're you're open early for a good shot take it and and and make it and if you don't then we've got rebounders flying in there and it's okay um and you know kind of we again we use a lot of film and just some of the teaching piece you know to teach the time and score you know but uh we're okay with good quick early shots and you know for the most part that's that's been working for us absolutely has been working for you and gonna you referred to some of these things throughout the podcast a little bit about the freedom especially in transition and then I talked to one of your opposing uh assistant coaches in your league and they reference kind of your half court offense obviously you don't run a lot of sets you reference that already but you run a little bit of structure a little bit of continuity but within that they said it's unstructured Freedom within the structure and I thought that was like brilliant way of kind of looking at it and is is that somewhat accurate in terms of the half court offense uh yeah that's really accurate I don't know who you talk to but they've got a good Scouting Report um they still didn't beat you so it didn't matter coach right right well that's kind of you know that that that's that's part of it um where we definitely have a structured structure to our offense um and I believe especially for our team how we play women's basketball and I think basketball in general you know you can't just totally like play willy-nilly otherwise people don't know you know then you lose some trust our team can make plays because they trust they know where the their teammates are going to be so we definitely have a continuity offense but then you know within that continuity there there is a lot of freedom to make reads um it's really just reading the defense and so you know um it's not complicated it just you know we try to really keep things pretty simple for our team and if if you're getting denied then you're cutting back door and once you cut back door then the next chain of thing things happen you know it's not it's not like totally trained tracks of you know pass here go there make this cut you know um but there is some structure to where then you can create out of it and as you read defense it can look totally different than the than the previous possession and it could look totally different the next possession which um you know again obviously we really really like so then we do run some sets um but those are for like really scripted shots because for the most part you know our offense works for us it definitely works and uh the way I phrase it to people is basketball decisions supersede basketball plays and that concept that you've talked about a little bit what I'm curious about because I get asked this a lot is that when you do run a little bit of structure or continuity and then you give them Freedom they're gonna break the continuity they're going to break the structure so what are some things that you do to help them understand how to respace and sort of reset so to speak within that well I think it's like it's them kind of understanding that that continuity and for the most part when it breaks you can get back to it pretty quickly and and sometimes you know uh how we teach our offense is not to play to run the offense you know our team like they know I lose my mind the most when they don't look to score like we aren't playing offense to run our offense we're playing offense to score so I don't want to you know change sides of the floor five times sure like if that's you know we love a good reversal because then you're making the you know the defense move but if we're getting down into the shot clock then people aren't looking to score because we would have already had two three maybe even four actions that people aren't looking to score um so you know that that like so when it breaks it's good because that means someone's looking to score so then you kind of just make the next play um and and for us you know it's not about how quickly we can get back into the offense but it's like if someone's breaking it then they felt that they had an advantage and so what we preach is now it's your job to carry that Advantage forward whatever it looks like um you know attacking a bad closeout or looking to shoot you know on a drive and kick so um you know I think that's that that structure and you know um like you said kind of the freedom to just you know again we preach like it's not about the place we run but it's about the plays you make and we gave you the structure to allow you the space to go make those plays um and then the structure also gives you a high level of trust with your teammates to know that they have your back well I love that answer coach I mean to be able to like help players understand that when you actually break the structure it's a good thing is is obviously obviously a great way to be able to give them the freedom to say you can go make a play so that's such an important part of what you just said that I hope coaches caught yeah for sure I mean you know there's like you said there's kind of all different ways to do things out there and this is just kind of how we do and how we teach and if it can help someone else then then great well definitely it seems to uh help your program so that's a good thing and you mentioned the rebounding part of it which is awesome and I don't want to just talk about offense with you because clearly your program is done at all so talk to us a little bit about your defensive philosophy then um you mentioned being an offense first coach which I would say I am somewhat too but part of the strength of being an offense first coach is that you do become really really conscious of Defense don't you because you're looking at how different ways that you can score sure yeah and you know I mean exactly to your point of yes I'm like offense through and through but you know if if we don't if our defense is totally trash then we'll never have an opportunity to play offense so um you know I I do favor them both for us defensively um we you know we we pride ourselves on taking away a teams a players number one thing and if we can force them to do their second option then we're okay with that and again we're like we're very conscious that we're never going to hold anyone probably or any team to zero points but if we can force them into their the second thing that they prefer to do and if it can be contested then we have a great opportunity to rebound um you know I think one one thing again that is like silly that we do is you know we we we really I identify like what shots were okay with them making and when when someone makes a good shot tell them good shot you know because there's a lot of great defense out there and then sometimes there's just a little bit better offense and or maybe a lucky shot and and that's okay so to not like get discouraged about whatever you did on defense and just say hey good shot and and do the same thing you know the next possession and they probably may not make it you know twice in a row um so defensively we're pretty Scouting Report driven uh you know we watch a lot of film um and we you know I I know it's referred a lot as a pack line defense I don't I don't like to call it pack line because it's not like true pack line principles but we call it be their defense you know so it's like when your player has a ball you're there um you're not out of position you're not lunging you're not trying to deny you're just there and uh you know so we we try to help in gaps um and you know we don't front the pose but we try to push them off the block a little bit and and you know make them score over us you love that be their defense absolutely and uh you know I thought you're gonna say like because you're so Scouting Report focused that you know you don't like calling it back line because you're going to modify a little bit to help based on who you're playing against as well is that part of it yeah for sure um you know once we get into games and obviously conference when you like know teams so well it is really you know individual tendency kind of based so you know the the pack line part of it kind of gets thrown out the window um and even obviously we have we do shell and we have you know certain principles and things but like you said I don't totally like beat it to a drone because once we get into games you know if the players like super right hand dominant you might be forcing them left everywhere on the court which might mean middle drives at times Baseline drives you know which can go against you know some of the general principles that you have um but so that's why we call be there I love it and you mentioned modifying help are there situations within scouting report that again part of modifying help for me was always certain players that we want to score versus other players we don't so we'd help harder on certain players and not help on other players because we'd rather have them shoot is that part of modifying help as well yeah for sure um you know kind of you know playing with a little bit of risk reward of if whether you know we're you know obviously I'm a little bit into the analytics I'm not totally like stats driven only you know I also kind of use the eye test and and some historical knowledge of teams and players but um you know if we're willing to you know give a little help on someone else and allow some you know another player to have a little bit more room to shoot or make a play then you know it's that's kind of we we pick our poison and we're willing to live with that and you know again for young players that's like a tough pill to swallow like you want me just to like short close out not not guard her like well when everyone has a ball we're guarded no matter you know we're division one player but what you want to be thinking is helping on the post or you know no one wearing this player is you know kind of first so um yeah you know it that makes help come in all different ways and and whether it's double in the post or or you know helping on a Baseline Drive or whatever the you know situation may be um it can be pretty fluid and you know uh that's that that can be a challenge again for young players and teams but then once they kind of buy into it they really they really uh buy into kind of the strategy piece and you know knowing the other teams plays and because once you feel like you you got an advantage that that that kind of that piece is addictive you know to like know to try to get into someone else's head and know what they want to do before they even know what they want to do um it's fun it's fun and it comes back to that self-efficacy piece even if you're wrong as a coach in terms of what you're trying to get them to do their belief that you have some Advantage is such a big part of scattering report type of defensive systems isn't it oh yeah for sure you know and there there's been players that have gotten hot and you know and at halftime you know if we're like letting a kid we're short closing out and she's got two or three threes you know they're like are we changing and I'm like no you know when she makes four then then we'll adjust you know and they're like are you sure am I again at first it's like okay you know we really gotta trust you and and and they do and um you know obviously this year you're still able to pull out those games even with a couple of players you know maybe having their career high but you know that that's that that was our game plan and what we were willing to live with and we saw it in the NCAA tournament right the semi-final to the final the differences in terms of the scattering Port approach for Iowa one worked and one didn't and uh you know that's part of the game isn't it and they still played their best percentages and given themselves the best chance to win yeah absolutely I mean I think that was you know obviously on the the biggest platform and the biggest stage and you could really see you know that the scouting and and just two like main defensive you know mindsets and philosophies you know South Carolina obviously a tremendous defensive team and you wouldn't say that Iowa was known for their defense but um you know they they kind of Drew up a game plan they trusted each other and they stuck to it uh and it worked out and not saying that it would every game but that game it did I'm curious like it was from coaches perspectives obviously all of us look at that and go okay that's smart and then it was interesting the concept of disrespect and I'm not sure if that's ever come up in kind of anything you've done that oh you're disrespecting the player by not covering them and to me it actually helped our players develop better in practice because offensively we would say like if they're we're just disrespecting you better work harder to get so we don't right yeah you know I think that's a little bit of uh you know players individuals taking that defensive concept personally which you know you kind of don't blame them but to your point you know if they're doing that then it should motivate you to to improve that skill and and change it um so you know until that happens then you know if you if you see it as disrespect and it you know you kind of have the responsibility or or the ownership to change it if you want and or or do something about it you know love it uh building this flexibility and this adaptability within your defense to be able to do these scouting report changes talk to us about how you've developed that within your practices because you must be practicing that in some context yes um you know part of obviously defense is we have a few different you know ball screen coverages so um we do we kind of start that pretty early on um in terms of just defensive mechanics obviously the shell drill you know there's a few things better you know and that might be the most old-school thing but it still works um you know from a Scouting Report piece it's it is hard to practice scouting your port in a practice you know even if it's against you know a player that has a blue jersey that they're the shooter you know that that one's you know okay but it's hard to you know you your teammate is this is their favorite you know move and you're trying to tell them well no this is their their other favorite move when they're trying to imitate someone else so you know our we we definitely our defense like gets progressively better um over over the especially the non-conference because there's just nothing that can replicate games and Scouting Report um and kind of the concentration and that and and focus that it takes um like a game you know so we kind of you know and that's where you know just from a coach's perspective we know that going into you know obviously we rely more on some of the veteran players like okay you kind of know what's going on then we we gotta count on you to do the right thing but when you're trying to give you know playing time and experience to some young players you've just gotta you know kind of go through a little bit of growing pains use some film to really teach him and then it gives you more things to practice kind of as games go on but our defense definitely progressively gets better for sure yeah yeah it speaks to the importance of playing games which uh we all love anyways but uh that's such a great point there coach and then is two-way coaching a part of the practice in terms of when you play offense and defense as well which helps connect some of those things yeah you know um like I might be you know talking to you right now but uh I'm you know our program has only done what it's done because we have a great staff and so um you know each staff member has different responsibilities and ownership kind of in practice whether it's teaching and and having an eye for for whether it's positions or offense or defense and so um you know some drills like we're coaching both offense and defense um that kind of gets hard to be honest a lot of our drills you know all to kind of tell the team of like we we are focusing on on the offense defense frankly do whatever you want you know and then on the converse we'll have like this is a defensive drill like you're getting subbed out you know Warren is what you know whistle's blowing if if you're not doing the right thing defensively so it you know obviously the game is two ways right you've got to be able to put both things together but I think when you're really in practice trying to focus on one um I think you know that's kind of how you said you get a little bit a little bit better at the defense a little bit better at the offense than maybe you play a scrimmage and you kind of put them both together I know Stanford famously ran the triangle offense I love the triangle for everything it's taught us about basketball uh text winner and all that so I'm curious about your takeaways from running the triangles player and the different lessons it's maybe taught you that helped you as a coach to understand offense yeah you know for me as a young player coming out of high school where you know high school ball you're just kind of running whatever and the ball's in your hand you're kind of do whatever you want um the triangle was the first offense I ever like learned um as a maturing basketball player so it is a little bit of a first love for me too um we had great I had great teammates and we had like the perfect Personnel to run it you know great post players um guards around the perimeter uh two post players in particular again just trying um but uh to your point I I think the triangle has a lot of really good Concepts um whether you choose to run the whole offense and as a continuity offense or if you choose to pick some parts of it um like we have we have parts of the triangle that you could you know relate back to the triangle in our current offense you know because it was like I liked that action and we can we can implement it here um and so I think it just the spacing that it promotes um the team basketball playing playing with each other um and again you know you have to have a great post player at least one to play the triangle I mean obviously everyone thinks of Shaq you know uh you have to have a great post player and so um if if that's you know what what your team makeup is then triangle could be you know a good thing or you can just look at it and run you know run it in pieces as a set or just add it to something else that you're you're building on but um I you know I love the triangle too I love it too and uh you know speaking back to kind of the high low and the different progressions of reads that's something out of the triangle as well regardless of whether you run the triangle the triangle was outstanding at teaching players the progression of reads about what to look for and then what to look for next yeah you know and I think from the triangle you know the like sister offense is the Princeton offense and both things you know coming back to passing you you have to be able to be your post players have to be great passers everyone has to be able to pass um and so I think those are good like fundamental things that you can take from from both offenses but the triangle for sure on the high low and really interchangeable post players um you know are I think are more critical the Princeton's a little bit more for round one which the triangle is two but it it's more interchangeable with two distinct post players yeah and the pro version of the triangle basically had a beginning and end and the Stanford version of the triangle what I thought that she did an outstanding job of helping us all understand was how to keep it flowing within the triangle from side to side and that was just uh outstanding lessons for all of us that love the triangle yeah I I mean we we got some great looks and we ran it into the ground um and it really obviously worked for us um you know but it also taught me a lot even as a player kind of some of the things that now as a coach I I take back of Eve I remember as a player you know running being on offense to run that offense and to go to the next thing and maybe passing up opportunities or thoughts to score and so you know again with our team now it's taking some of that that I learned of yes there is an option if if you need to um but you you have to you have to look to score and um and not just from the offense you know to get to the next thing uh it's such a great reflection of your time there that uh you take away the parts that uh align with you and then you adapt and or adopt other ideas and it's just beautiful to be able to hear you talk about that I've heard in an article you refer to ball screen and dribble handoff as your meat and potatoes I think it was one of your staff members that called it that so talk to us a little bit about your meat and potatoes and how those evolve within your program yeah you know that's what you know we we talked about a little bit of our continuity and so I refer to it as meat and potatoes you know when you sit down for a meal that's kind of like the bulk of what you're getting the appetizer the dessert you know for us those are our sets and some of our you know special situation stuff but our meat and potatoes are um uh revolve out of a ball screen ball screen kind of continuity um and with really uh this past season we did more of a gerbil handoff instead of like a pass and a follow to a ball screen and we've kind of gone back and forth and you know uh our first year we did pass and follow um the last two years we've kind of done more of a gerbil handoff um and you know I don't know if I'm like totally committed to one or the other I think that they both present great different types of scoring opportunities um regardless of which one you do you have to kind of commit to teaching it because especially just the way the game is being called you know a moving screen on a dribble handoff is like one of the most common things so you've got to really teach the timing um of the dribble handoff with the guards just as much with your post players being able to come to a stop and all that same with the ball screen right you you know there's a lot of patience that kind of takes takes part of it but for the most part we are kind of playing like a two-man game on one side and then having our our other three players kind of would call it a free side um being ready to kind of read and react and and you know rebound or be ready to shoot and if they can't score that two-man game then when it kind of gets kicked to that post player at the top of the key uh then the next kind of chain of events happens and you know coming back to like we have structure but there's it's unpredictable predictable structure and it depends on what the defense gives us um you know we can backdoor we can down screen uh we can kind of shallow cut out of it um you know and especially towards the end of the year obviously our team gets really comfortable and and creative uh and really trusting each other that you know the offense On Any Given possession doesn't look exactly alike although they're running the same thing I love it and within your meat and potatoes what is your preferred way of attacking switches um in terms of uh you know whether it's off ball screen or dribble handoff yeah um switches are hard you know and and for us coming back to you know our identity it's about getting it into the paint so if they want to switch a little guard onto our post player who you know is player of the year then we've got to find a way to get the ball back to her um but that can be that can happen in a number of different ways so um you know typically we play like with an empty corner on it on a two-man game but if someone's really switching then maybe we put you know we keep someone in that corner so it allow us to throw back to then take advantage of the switch and go right inside from there um but we also give our guards the freedom to you know it depends on that type of size a post player you know if it's if it's a big one bring post player then you know try to go attack them and so then you can draw you know more defense and get some of those drives and kicks so um switches are hard you know uh I think they're hard to teach and and if you can do it defensively it can be really effective and then offensively you know we we've gotta be able to not just kind of go out there and play it because you've got to have some strategy on how to attack it uh because it's that that tough coach just so many wonderful things here and uh you know I think it's on your team website the way you do anything is the way you do everything uh as a motto as a quote so talk to us a little bit about that and how that represents you and your program um we started off talking you know kind of About Cherry Cole and her way with words I think I I first heard um the phrase or kind of the motto from her of you know how you do anything is how you do everything and it takes a little while for it to sink in um but you know when when people kind of ask me you know their recipe for success or the secret ingredient uh to be honest I come back to that and it that is like every you know the fabric of of our culture from our staff to our support staff to obviously our players and it manifests itself in a million different ways and you know at first I say it to our players and they you know look at me like I've got 17 heads like that doesn't make sense you know now you're talking talking in you know gibberish but um you know for me the academic side of being a student athlete is so important uh obviously I went to Stanford and and that is important to me as a player but even for these young women that are great basketball players um you know they need their degrees and and you can't just be a great basketball player and not a great student in my opinion so how we introduce the concept is that it starts there you know how can I expect you to study my scouting report if you can't study for your math test uh you know uh and at first they're like well because I like basketball more and I'm like okay so do I but your habits and and your characteristics of who you are show up in both things and whatever you know whether it's complacency in in that math you know study session it will show up somewhere on the court and if you don't have the discipline to you know put your shopping cart away back at the little stall you're not going to have the discipline to dive on the loose ball um when the game is on the line and now you think you might but those those things kind of really relate so um I'd probably say it too much and you know but but they start to realize and again it starts with the academic piece of you know you're not taking care of your business there then you're going to lose the opportunity to be on the court with us um but even when we're out in the community of you know how how you're speaking to this father and his daughter um it's probably going to be how you speak to in an interview um at some point in your life and so uh we try to also use just that motto and that phrase to help help just you know build and create life skills that are outside of basketball that are interwoven in basketball um and I think you know again for as these young people you know once they transition if they're playing if they're going to continue to play great but majority of them don't and sometimes it's hard for them to understand how their athletic skills and things that they've done for the last four years translate to the real world and you know we I think we do a pretty good job of showing our team how they will as they're going through it because we come back to that of you know you're you're like work ethic right now in practice is and when like I'm giving you the hardest drill that I'm know exists it's going to be the same drive and determination that you're going to fall upon when you're out there in the real world working and you know your project is going sideways and you've just got to grind through it um so you know we love that saying I've got maybe a you know a handful in my bag but that is one that we we come back to and we keep in the Forefront um you know because the winning is great but how you do it matters and for us you know having fun enjoying each other you know really kind of buying into the culture piece is just as important because you can win a lot of games and not have fun and that's no fun so I rather have fun and maybe lose a couple of games than win games and not have any fun thank you so much coach for uh sharing that and connecting it I mean not just great lessons for your players but for all of us listening as well so thank you so much for sharing the game with us yeah no this has been great I appreciate you and I'm honored that you asked me to be a part of your podcast and I know you've got lots of viewers out there so whenever anyone's in Vegas come come check us out and see a game and cheer on the Lady Rebels