What is one purchase or investment that you regret? Well if you look at it, the way I paid for my flat by selling HDLC bank stock you could say was something which in hindsight was bad. What was the amount of those ESOPs when you invested, when you liquidated them? You're really making me look stupid. No.
I think at that time the market value must have been about 2 crore. What was the amount which you lost because you did not... 200. I don't know. Oh, is it? What was the last job, which company and what was the salary that you were earning?
Starting salary at IDFCP was 50 lakhs a year. It's never been about the salary, it's really about the wealth creation. You ask me today, Louis, what do you want today?
I have no idea. What was your turning point in the entire career of the last few years? Buying a soap dish at Vahid Stores in Bandra. Okay. So you want to know more?
Yeah, I want to know more. Let me tell you some more. In today's podcast, we have invited Mr. Louis Miranda, who is the co-founder of ISPP, which is Indian School of Public Policy. He cleared the Chartered Accountancy, got All India Ranked in the Inter-R finals, did MBA from Chicago Booth.
And not only that, he was one of the first employees at HDFC Bank. Then he set up IDFC's private equity fund. He was the CFO at Chris Capital for... two years and you will be surprised that he left ESOP's employee stock options of HDFC bank to buy his own house.
He sold those shares worth 2 crores. Today, his value could have been more than 200 crores. It's what he mentioned.
In fact, it could have been more than that. In today's episode, we talked about his entire journey. What is public policy? What types of jobs are there in public policy?
And most importantly, how to network very effectively. He has a force framework, P-H-O-R-C-E, which you'll get to know in the later part of the video. And this will help you in order to network, send cold emails, and maintain that relationship with everyone. So, make sure to watch this episode. till the end and subscribe to my channel right now and share this with someone who you think will get a lot of value out of this and make sure to subscribe to Kushal Lodha Clips channel where we also bring you the best possible short form content in the best possible time.
Thank you so much. Until then, stay tuned for Conversation with Kushal. Hi, Luis. Welcome to Conversation with Kushal. How are you doing?
Thank you. Thank you, Kushal. Thank you for having me here.
Thank you so much for coming all the way here. It's an absolute honor to host you. I've seen your journey right from getting ranks in your chartered accountancy to doing MBA from Chicago Booth and now starting ISPP which is Indian School of Public Policy. Your journey has been like very very inspiring for me as an individual and today it's going to inspire everyone as well. I just wanted to start off by asking you like what was your turning point in the entire career of the last few years and how did you ensure that like how did your career trajectory become so successful?
Buying a soap dish at Vahid Stores in Bandra. Okay. You want to know more? Yeah, I want to know more. Let me tell you some more.
So, I just come back from the US. And my dad was going to be visiting me. And I needed to buy a soap dish. And I walked into this store. and suddenly I hear a voice behind me saying, that must be Louis Miranda.
And I turned around and I met a friend who I hadn't met for many years. And she just come back from the... the US. That's my, and we ended up getting married a few years later. That's how I remit Fiona after many years.
And the reason why I said it was a turning point, because I think after getting married to her, she encouraged me to take a lot of the risks that I took later on in life here. So I guess that would be a turning point in my life. But actually, if you slip back a bit, it's also to do with a meeting. meeting I had, an interview I had in New York. I was...
And that turning point was really related to me coming back to India in 1989. And... But actually, let's slip back to the Fiona story. The reason why I said it was a turning point was because I didn't think that I would get married. I thought I would sort of, you know, have this sort of happy single life and be on my own.
And I never expected to see the life the way it transpired. And it's also there for an important lesson for people that choosing your life partner is very important in life. You've got a long way to go still.
But the fact is that that's something which is so important, who you pick in life to be your partner, because it's got to be somebody who you are going the life journey together. It's the ability to, when things go bad, when things go good, when you want to take a change. I told her that, don't feel like that, you know, or when you're dating rather, that, you know, life's going to be a roller coaster.
Who knows what the journey will be like? And honestly, when I look back at these 30 odd years, we never expected, neither of us expected to be where we are today. We were just lucky also, but it's that ability when your time is saying, okay I'm gonna quit my foreign bank job to join an Indian startup Bank She was the one who said go do it if that's what you want to do go do it or when I'm leaving HDFC Bank to join the internet space a venture capital fund after the bubble had burst her point was that yeah if you don't enjoy what you're doing go do it and that's so important that selecting a life partner is important to you so what kind of qualities do you think we should have in our mind when we select our life partners I think compatibility is one and it doesn't and the second thing also this is I think some of the question we're having with our own kids today is you do don't need to be identical.
Sometimes you can be complimentary also. Someone can be lively, someone can be non-lively, someone can be serious, someone can be jovial. But it's the ability to communicate which is also important here.
But for each one it's different. What may be an ideal partner for me can be very different from what you would want. So it's really trying to figure out someone who is good for you as opposed to good for ABC.
I'd be a disastrous husband for somebody else here. Who knows you? But were you like risk averse before your marriage and like did it change after your marriage? So Chartered accountants, I guess, by definition are considered to be risk averse because you're tended to be sort of non-risk taking, etc. So I think I grew up in a conventional environment of risk averseness.
My dad, for example, had had the same job for most of for his entire career. I mean, he worked there for over 30 years here. So yes, there is a certain element of risk averseness that I grew up with.
And I think it's somewhere along the way I developed this thought process about focusing less on the downside but more on the upside. And maybe that trigger was coming back to India. And it's part of the lessons that I learned at Chicago, in a way, when I was at business school, which was challenge everything. So here was I struggling to get a job way back in 1989. I thought I was a failure.
I couldn't get a job. It was after the October 1987 crash. It was tough getting jobs. I got my summer internship, which was a fabulous assignment, working in the chairman's office of Citibank in New York, which at that time was a lot. largest bank in the world.
But when I was looking at a full-time job, it was not easy. And then I get a letter from Citibank Asia Pacific that they'd like to interview me. Now, this was the days before email and sm- Smartphone so we got letters it came in a meal Came in a letter saying yeah that they'd like to interview me and come down to New York No, I wasn't keen on going back to India so soon I wanted to go back to India, but I don't want to go back didn't think I'd go back so soon But to me it was a free trip to New York.
So I decided I shall go. Went down in, I think, early December for that interview. And we met up for dinner the previous night and I got totally smashed. I couldn't even remember the name of my hotel because I wasn't interested in this interview here.
And the first person I met was someone from Citibank HR in Hong Kong who irritated me by asking me a whole lot of stupid questions. And the second person I met was from... someone from Treasury and Citibank Singapore. And by that time, my hangover was kicking in and I was feeling miserable.
But the third guy is a chap called Jaidev Iyer. And five minutes into the interview, I can still remember that question. He asked me, Lewis, what do you think about marketing foreign exchange products in India?
I knew nothing about it. So my response was, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I spent the next 11 years of my life doing that. So just imagine the situation, how absurd it is.
You're going in for an interview for a job which you don't know anything about because I'm not prepared for it. And he asked me, Lewis, what do you think about marketing foreign exchange products in India? And I was told...
He's a very smart guy, so you don't sort of try to bullshit him because, you know, he's got to make you look like an idiot. So I just was honest about it. And which actually turned out to be also a very good interviewing technique, because then he spent 30 minutes telling me what the job is about.
And whenever he asked me any question, I would say, I don't know. And and that's what I ended up doing. So and, you know, I thought I was a failure because this was. Not a great, well-paying job.
I had the distinction of being the lowest paid guy in my graduating class. But to me, it was... the job sounded exciting. And that's why I sort of took it. But it worked out for me.
That changed my life. I was talking to Fiona the other day. She was saying that if I hadn't taken that risk, we would not have met a week later. I mean, when I moved back a week after I moved back here.
So that's it. So you met her at Citibank? No, no. I met her at Waheed Stores in Andalusia when she had come down. She was doing her PhD in the US.
So she had just come down for a holiday. But that's it. So I guess that's the stage when I realized that I was doing something which was considered to be risky. But then, you know, when you look back, my thought process was that, what's the worst that can happen? I come back to India.
I find that I don't hate it, I could always go back and start off with some other course and then stay on in the US and try to recreate that. And in life too often we worry too much what would go wrong, what would be the downside if things went bad. On average you're going to live till about 80. So what if you screw up for three years?
You've got still a lot more years to make up for that. And that ability, that thought process of saying, so what, I think has helped me take those decisions, which is really, in a way, again, what Chicago did, challenge everything. Just because it exists, so what? Why can't it be different?
So leaving Citibank to go join a much smaller bank at that time, HSBC, was a crazy decision. Leaving HSBC... HSBC to join a bank, a private sector bank in India, was considered to be a crazy decision. Leaving HTFC Bank and walking away from ESOPs to join a startup investing in dot-com after the bubble burst was considered to be more than crazy.
And leaving that to think you could make money investing in infrastructure in India was considered crazy. Starting a public policy school in India is considered crazy. so yeah got it so i guess i do take do crazy stuff now that's considered risk taking so it is yeah so you'll feel happy if people call you crazy right oh yeah yeah yeah i mean they've called me worse things so crazy is polite here okay uh so so like uh you're so i'm sorry lewis you just mentioned that you have like uh taken a lot of uh crazy bets also in your lives and uh you've been also correct in identifying like big trends multiple times like private sector indian banks in the 1990s in front of you infrastructure which is the IDFC in early 2000 and 2018 again you found like your co-founded ISP which is Indian School of Public Policy. Is there any framework which you follow to identify or spot these trends and newbies like let's say youngsters like me who are now starting their own ventures how do we identify these trends? Okay I don't know whether you've seen the movie Forrest Gump.
I've not but I've heard about it. You've heard about it yeah you've seen may have seen Lal Singh Chadda which was the Indian adaptation of that. Forrest Gump was this guy who just happened to be at the right time at the right place and had this charmed life I'm Forrest Gump It wasn't my idea to come back to India. Jaidev Iyer told me, Lewis, what do you think about marketing foreign exchange products in India? It wasn't my idea to say I'm going to go join HSBC.
Someone else came and asked me, Lewis, are you interested? It wasn't my idea to start an Indo-Private Sector Bank. I get a call saying we're starting a bank. Bharat Shah called me, are you interested?
It wasn't my idea to get into the BC world. Mohandas Pai connected me to those guys, or rather connected them to me. It wasn't my idea to invest in infrastructure. Deepak Padik said, Louis, we've got a mandate to set up an infrastructure fund.
Why don't you set it up? it up. It wasn't my idea to set up ISPP.
Patsha, my partner, said, Lewis, why don't we set up a public policy school? So you see the trend. It's never my idea. Whatever I've done has been because somebody else suggested it to me. And it was crazy and that's why I did it quite often.
So I guess the lesson learned from all of that is have that network of people who will throw opportunities at you. That's one. Two, take those risks and try something which is crazy.
And three, which I didn't appreciate till one of my friends recently at a 35th reunion in Chicago told me, his name is Bruce Riegel, you got to have the toolkit. And the toolkit is what I picked up during my CA time and in my MBA. The toolkit to be able to take those opportunities which someone else has thrown at me and make a success of it. Have we done everything?
right at IDFC? No, we had some disastrous deals also. But overall, we did great.
It created a very valuable business. We started, in a way, the whole infrastructure revolution on the investing side in India. India.
Did we expect to do that? No. Our expectation on that term was, let's just prove that you can make money at a higher rate than the debt rate in infrastructure investing.
That was our simple aim. And we did it much larger. So let's look at the story of getting into Chris Capital. I'd gone to pitch for business to Mohan Das Pai. And again, how did I get to meet Mohan Das Pai?
I didn't know him from Adam, but I knew someone who was on the board of Infosys. So I reached out to Deepak Satpalakar and I said, can you introduce me to Mohan Das Pai? Mohan replies back saying, I'm busy. Meet my assistant Bala.
So I meet Bala, his assistant. And we're talking and in the meeting, Mohan walks in and we are talking about some company which a friend of his... etc. which he had personally invested in.
And we get talking and he says, Lewis, you know, you're wasting your time in the techs, in banking. You should be in the IT sector. And I was intrigued by the dot-com. You know, I was intrigued that there was this interest. interesting thing that is changing the world, but I couldn't figure out how I, as a treasury person can, you know, how do I add value to a.com or an internet company.
And he said, no, Lewis, there's somebody who wants to meet you. And I said, yeah, crazy. What do I bring to the table?
He said, there's somebody who wants to meet you. And literally after half an hour, I get a call from one of the tech entrepreneurs in Bangalore. Mohan said we should talk.
So I met up with him a couple of evenings later. And it was like in the movies. You know, we're sitting at the restaurant and on the table mat, which is paper.
He writes out his business plan, et cetera. And. And anyway, that conversation did move forward.
But suddenly I started getting a lot of phone calls. And I realized quickly that, I realized two things quickly. First of all, that there was clearly a shortage of skill sets in that whole internet sector at that time.
And secondly, the model was very simple. IT company plus CFO equals IPO. You've got a company, you want to go public, you need a CFO, you call Mohan, Mohan says call Lewis. That was the simple. model.
And then through that network, I finally decided that I will start talking to a company, small company in Bangalore, software company. And that company was pitching for business to HDFC Bank and I was involved in part of those discussions so I was conflicted in a way. So I'm going to meet Aditya Puri, the CEO of HDFC Bank, and my boss, and also a good friend, on a Friday. Because I've been talking to him for a long time, saying, Aditya, I've been doing the same thing for 11 years, obviously at different scales. I want to do something different.
And so I meet him on Friday and tell him, I've been talking about doing something different, so I'm leaving now and joining this small company. He says, this company, he says, where are you going? I said, this company.
And he said, are you crazy? You can't leave us to join this small company. I refuse to talk to you, let's talk on Monday. And that was the end of our conversation.
So I went back to my room. And I call up a young fund which had just started off in India, Chrysalis Capital. They were my client.
And I call up one of the partners and I tell him, you know, I'm thinking of joining this company. It's the type of companies you guys invest in. What do you think about it? And he tells me, you know, Lewis, we've just come out of a meeting with Mohan Das Pai. We're expanding our team.
And he said, we should talk to you. So. So I said, but you know, I'm joining this other company. I said, can we meet for breakfast tomorrow? So I met up with Raj and Ashish the next morning for breakfast.
And that's how I got into the VC industry. It's just so random. And so I go meet Aditya on Monday and I tell him, you know, Aditya, he said, are you still living? Are you going to the small company? I says, yeah, I'm going, but I'm now joining Chrysalis Capital.
And he says, what happened? I said, I don't know, it was a very volatile weekend. But, you know. You know, it's just that. It's just those random conversations.
Now, you can talk about, is it random? Do you create those opportunities? But I think it's really just that force of the network which sort of, you know, creates those opportunities for people. And, you know, and also when we look at... Uh...
These opportunities, we never looked at HDFC Bank and saying, oh, we're going to make it the largest bank and the most valuable bank in the country. That was never, ever in the plan. If it was, I would not have sold my stock. earlier. But when we started HDFC, it was never about, you know, we're going to make a lot of money.
It was all about let's just make a viable business. So today, when I meet young people, If they pitch to me and within the first three minutes they're talking about a billion customers, a 500 million valuation, etc., I've already lost interest. But instead if they tell me this is how they're going to impact people, this is what the product is about, about then I am interested.
So I know what to keep in mind if I am going to face you. But I wanted to ask you so do you take decisions very quickly and if yes what's your like how do you do that? Sometimes you got to take decision. quickly and sometimes if a decision goes bad you should be able to know when to cut your loss and move on and that's why sometimes I could take decisions which may not be right in the long term about you know okay I move on as opposed to trying to sort of you know hold and make something work but that's it I guess that's part of that mentality of spending 11 years in that environment which made me sort of flip it around and And again, you know, we sometimes agonize too much about things.
And I guess I never looked at it. I mean, it's been a long time since we've talked. Then I've, you know, reflected on what happened in 2000 when I left the HDFC Bank and joined Chris Capital.
It was 24 years ago. But yeah, it was literally a decision over a weekend. Saturday morning and then Monday morning I'm having the discussion. And I remember I was at someone's party.
And they were on... having this conversation on the phone with this other person. Yeah, I think mobile phones started by that time. And about, you know, just my terms of joining, etc.
And Chris Capital was a young firm at that time. And the bubble had burst. And the company we had invested in were all struggling.
But, yep, to me, it sounded interesting. And again, what was the downside? It would fail.
It's okay. I'll go back to some other bank. But here, okay, what I would lose, I would lose those ESOPs that had been unvested, which I would have lost.
But that's okay. It's only money. Is there any decision that you regret about?
Oh, lots. A lot of decisions here. Well, one is selling HDFC Bank too early.
But you know, sometimes I... Then again, okay, let's look at that here. Let's look at that decision in the thought process behind that.
Because in a way, it also shows that while I do take risk, I sometimes am risk averse. So here was I in 2001. First of all, obviously, the stock that I had invested, I lost anyway. but the stock that had been invested, I still had that. And in 2002, I was looking at buying an apartment.
First time we were buying an apartment. Till then, we were just sort of living in rented places. and I had left Chris Capital at that time and I was sort of you know had a semi offer from IDFC but I literally had taken three four months off and was doing nothing.
This is 2002. 2002 year on that year. So we're buying this place and so I didn't have a job, I didn't have any income. I was oh 40 and I took kids and I had to take and I was buying this apartment.
So now I could have Bought it all in cash by selling my stock or I could have taken a loan. The plan was to take a loan. And at that time, it was considered to be a large loan for HDFC at that time. One crore at that time was considered large.
Or one or two crore. And then I said, you know, what happens if I get knocked down by the proverbial bus? And I had actually advised... One of our portfolio companies founders at Chris Capital against taking a loan to leverage himself up and I think that was a good decision because that company didn't do well it's eventually he'd have been in debt but anyway so this is where I was here saying that you know here was I going to take this loan and what happens if I get knocked down by a bus then Fiona and the kids will be stuck with a house, big debt and then I'll have to liquidate it. So that didn't make sense for me. me at that time.
Now in hindsight, 20 odd years later, I'm still alive. I could service that debt very easily. And I could have sort of enjoyed the upside on HDFC Bank. But that's all in hindsight.
At that time, based on how I looked at it, I felt it wasn't worth that risk. It's okay. What would I have done with that money?
Possibly donated it today. Because our lifestyle has not changed. Lifestyle would not have changed.
And Fiona and I have anyway some years ago signed up with something called Living My Promise. Where we have pledged to give away at least 50% of what we have in our lifetime or in our wills. So, and money would have gone anyway.
So, what difference would it have made here? So, what was the... the amount of those ESOPs when you invested when you liquidated them and what was the amount which you lost because you did not invest that ESOPs?
You are really making me look stupid. I think at that time the market value must have been about 2 crore because I didn't take a loan so and the place cost us about 2 crore at that time so it must have been 2 crore because I paid for it by selling the stocks. what would it be worth today? I don't know.
200 crore. I don't know. No, is it?
Something, I'm sorry. Actually, yeah, because the stock has like, I mean, rallied a lot since 2000. You can check it over the last 20 years, whatever it is. Yeah, it's okay. But again, like you, you don't have any regret about it.
Give it away. No. Because life, you shouldn't have regrets in life. You take decisions, you move on.
That's it. Yeah. I mean, one of my friends was telling me, one of my close friends was telling me the other day, joking about it with someone else a few years ago. ago like look at this guy you know he sold htfc bank stock but my response to him is boss i'm not working today you're still working here there's a lesson over there yeah so just remember that yeah at your age i had stopped working here so that's a very savage kind of a response i can be an asshole and i don't want to be here oh god so uh you've also been like a very pro networker and you always like you also mentioned just now that have that network which will give you the opportunities and you're very good when it comes to networking so even in your college days you began participating in events and since then you have become like a master network so can you just tell us about that journey and there's also force framework which you talk about right so can you explain the audience how to use this in order to network so when i quit work into 2010 i was 48 when i quit full-time work i said i retired and then uh My wife says I have a very strange definition of retirement because I'm busier than I was before.
But when I quit full-time work, I was sitting back about, trying to reflect on what am I good at, etc. And I realized that my core skill was connecting dots. I am never the smartest guy in the room. But I'm possibly the most connected.
And so that's what I realized was my core competency, the ability to connect dots here. And one day, I signed up to take part in a beach walk. It's a 55-kilometer beach walk for a fundraiser for an organization called Umid.
So we were preparing for this 55-kilometer beach walk by going for a walk on Marine Drive. etc. And Ashish Kareem Chandani, whose wife started Umeeth, we were walking together.
He was at that time, I know him from his, he was a partner at Monitor. Now he works at the firm called FSG. And he said, Lewis, can you come and talk to my team members, my colleague, about how you stay in touch with people over the years?
We have consultants who are very good at their work. But... They are very transactional in their relationships. They're working with a client, they'll spend all the time over there and then they'll move on to the next client, they don't stay, they don't build up relationships.
You do it well over time. Can you come and talk to them? So I said no problem.
And then I, by the time I reached home, I was wondering, what have I signed up for? Here these guys want me to do a session on networking, but I don't know what I do. It just comes naturally to me. So what do I tell people about this?
So I just realized that the best way to do it was really, again, go back to my wife. And I remember I was flying out somewhere. So she was dropping me off at the airport. And so she was driving.
And I told her, you know, why don't you tell me? what are the things that you see me do? I've got to do this stuff for FSG.
And why don't you tell me what is it that you see me do about networking? And she kept telling me what I was doing. And I was taking notes on my phone. And so now by the time I reached the airport, I had enough material.
Because that's sometimes important. Because sometimes you don't realize yourself what you're good at. For example, I needed Mohandas Pai to tell me, Luis, you can be a CFO.
So similarly, I needed, you know... she used to come and force me to sort of you know figure out why is it that i can talk about networking and then since i was talking to a bunch of consultants uh I had to come up with a model, a framework, because otherwise consultants don't understand unless you have a framework. So I, the various things that Fiona told me about, I just put that into an acronym and then that came out into this framework called FORCE, which basically was summarizing six behavior traits that I followed as a way to build out my network. So it's based, so this framework is actually based on the deep analysis with a sample size of one.
So I must caveat that that's what worked for me. It worked for somebody else, but it worked for me. And the FORCE is really an acronym for P-H-O-R-C-E, which is a spin on the word FORCE.
But P stands for positivity. That unless you are going with a positive mind, you cannot build a network. If you are not willing to go send that cold email, if you are not willing to reach out to someone, if you are scared of rejection, you cannot build a network. That's the first. The second is hard work.
There's a lot of work required in terms of it. Like, you know, it may sound basic, but because... it becomes second nature like what I did but when you look for example of what you did Kushal I told you sent me an email you then followed up three months later because I told you I'm not free now and I sort of contact me when on that dot you sent me another reminder but I don't know what you track but I'm a big believer in google calendars here same same same so in fact for our 25th wedding anniversary a kid sort of made a wedding cake for us which was in the form of a google calendar page because Because my life is based on Google calendars.
Same, like ditto. I have lunch, dinner, talking to my parents. Everything is calendarized.
Oh my gosh, if my family heard you, they would say, gosh, there's another person. They thought I'm unique here. So there's enough jokes about that in my family.
So that's hard work. That's the H. O is openness. If you are not open to the fact that you may be wrong or that there could be another point of view, you will again not build up a network.
R stands for reliance, trust. The ability, you've got to believe in the goodness of people. Otherwise, you can't build a network.
C stands for curiosity. I am interested. I want to know about you, Kushal. What is it that drives you?
What is it? Why did you reach out to me? What is it that you do?
You know, if... I go meet someone and I spend one, I'm asking them all the questions and I come out and I realize, they've not asked me anything about myself. Look back and say, what went wrong over there?
Why was I not interesting for that person? I'm curious. I like asking questions. Embarrasses my kids to hell, but I am like that.
And E is empathy. You've got to care for people. Because otherwise you won't build a network.
So that's my first one. Positivity, hard work, openness, reliance, curiosity, empathy. Based on this deep analysis.
of a data set of one. That's a very good framework. Just one follow-up question here that I have is a lot of people have like, let's say they network and then they go with an agenda or they go with a mindset that I'll have to add value or...
they'll have to add value and it's a very transactional kind of a relationship. My question here is, if let's say someone who is smarter than me and who is like three, four levels above me, how do I convince that person to give me a meeting? Like what is the secret to do that?
And secondly, once that is done, how do I... I ensure that the person who's three four levels above me I stay in touch with that person also boss you've done it so what are you asking me that question you just do exactly what you did which is really sometimes you don't need that value proposition if you just show that you are a good decent guy someone will reach out it's not that everyone wants something in return and I have this issue sometimes with with uh we have at ISPP we run a mentoring program and and some of the scholars ask me you know Lewis how do I I make it interesting for that person? I said that person has signed up to be a mentor. That person has signed up because they want to sort of be of assistance to you. You're not, they haven't signed up because you want to, they're going to get something from you.
Now it's a separate value. They get more out of it than you, but that's a separate point. So don't assume that everyone is doing something for a selfish motive or wanting to get something.
Sometimes people just want to help. I just believe in the goodness of people. So when I write to someone, yeah, I mean, maybe. I have something interesting. You try to create that value proposition.
You try, you got to figure out what is it that, and that's what's important about preparing. And it doesn't mean you get it right. I mean, I remember at fundraising, I think everyone should at some stage in their life get into sales and fundraising because you will suddenly have no ego at the end of it because it's a great level.
You'll suddenly realize that, you know, you get rejected so often that you suddenly realize that you really have no self-esteem at the end of it. But, But some, you know, it's just that you fine tune yourself by that experiment. I'm sure that when you, the emails that you sent today were very different what you sent maybe three years back.
Because you learnt how to refine, how to update the value proposition, etc. And so don't worry too much about how do I create value for that person. No, it's just that, you know, if you sound like a good guy, maybe I'll sort of say, okay, let me spend...
spend two hours with you. Talk us more about your HDFC buying experience. How did that happen and what are some of the lessons you have learnt from Mr. Deepak Parikh who is the chairman of HDFC?
This was 94, 93-94. Those Indian companies which were professional didn't pay a decent wage and those who paid a decent wage weren't professional. So when I get this call from Bharat Shah Singh Lohi, I am like, I am not going to pay a decent wage.
Louis, we're setting up a bank. You know, Aditya's going to be running it, etc. Are you interested?
I said, done. So I came on board just because I wanted to be in an Indian organization. So I was the third banker who came on board. And in my appointment letter, I actually said, HDFC Bank in bracket proposed. Because there was no bank.
There was no banking license. There was nothing. And I remember I'd come in, there was three, four of us in the office at that time.
And I'd come into the office, I had the keys to the office because I would be the first person in. I would, and Fiona had gone for a friend's wedding in Spain. So when our house was getting redone.
So I'd walk down and there used to be those days of a lovely vada pav guy sitting outside Raymond house. I would buy two vada pavs from him. I would collect the newspaper which are lying on the floor outside the locked door. I would open the office and then I would say, now, how do I keep myself busy today?
There's no work here. We don't have a bank. We don't have a license. So that's when I learned PowerPoint.
So that was the first skill that I picked up at HDFC Bank. And PowerPoint was this revolutionary. I don't even know what it's called, PowerPoint at that time. Whatever it is called.
It was a revolutionary productivity tool to make presentations here. This is which year, by the way? 94. Okay. So the first presentation.
of HDFC Bank. I prepared. And many years later, I could still see one or two slides from that, obviously now done in a more professional manner. But that was it.
And then we sort of, you know, looked at, you know, how do we build out the bank. And in the first, I joined in, I think, August. So from August till February, I worked in Raymond House and we moved to a place called Sandoz house when it was stripped down because Sandoz had just moved out and We just rented furniture and the land was a series of wires on the floor and someone kicked the wire and the whole land collapsed.
We were in that situation. We didn't have enough chairs in the office. You came in late, you didn't have a chair.
So to me it was frugality. which is the big lesson that I learned. And I think that's what's important.
So today when I see startups and having all this fancy lifestyle, I can't relate to it because that's not how we started HDFC Bank. We started off in an industrial gala. We started, you know, with nothing at all here. And then we built it up here. We gave up on all the perks that we had as foreign bankers.
We gave up on salaries, etc. Because we were excited about building something here. Aditya, I remember one day at the famous coffee cup story.
Have you ever heard that one? No, I have not. So one day he said, okay, we're cost-cutting. You bring your own coffee cup to the office.
Everyone screamed. This is really the level of pettiness over here. But that set the tone.
We all had our own coffee cups. We didn't have fancy coffees like in a conversation with Kushal. None of that here. But you know, it was not because we wanted to be cheap.
But just that's the message. That's what we want to build out. I also read somewhere that back in the early days, like for cashiers, there were some chairs without the side handrests because cashier's job is to give cash.
and the hands are always going to be like, it is going to be at the front and not at the hand rest. So there were some chairs which were bought without the hand rest because they were cheaper as compared to the chairs that had hand rest. This is what I read somewhere, I don't remember exactly, but that is the frugality which was there.
Maybe, but the only time that I've actually sat in the cashier's office at HDFC Bank was when we were, we just moved into Sandos'old office. So they literally, they moved over and they cleaned up the office, they took all their furniture, away and they ripped everything off. So our admin people, I got someone to just come in and put a coat of painting on the walls.
The flooring was still all scarred with all their partitions and we were allocated spaces to work in. We rented steel tables and chairs and the land I told you about was wired and I and some of us, the treasury room was in the cashier's office. So there was this place where there was actually a cashier window in front. and well I told you we didn't have chairs anyway we didn't have enough chairs here yeah so that goes right very interesting so now like we've worked at multiple companies HTFC bank HSBC city bank Chris capital and you said you quit your job in 2010 and then you started ISPP which is Indian School of Public Policy in 2018 right so I just wanted to understand so before we talk about ISPP also so what was the last job which company and if you don't mind sharing like what was the salary that you were earning because because it requires a lot of courage to take a plunge from sacrificing that amount to get into entrepreneurship. Sure.
So... I honestly don't remember what my last salary was. It was so huge that you don't remember.
No, no, no. It wasn't huge. I mean, it's a joke sometimes when I talk to colleagues. The salaries today are just so absurd compared to what I was getting at that time here.
I remember what my starting salary at IDFC was. I don't remember what my end salary was. But here was I leaving...
Leaving... Chris Capital coming across to IDFC and my salary was, and Nasser who was the CEO of IDFC was setting up the separate entity. He said, Lewis, I can't pay you what you get at Chris Capital.
And I said, that's not important. Just be fair. It's really strange, but every job I've taken was at a lower salary than my previous job.
Oh, is it? But. But there was always some upside. So my graph was, you know, it would be this and then this and then this and then this and that.
But it kept going up every time. But it was not because of the salary. It was because of the ESOPs or the carried interest that I made the money.
So I remember my starting salary at IDFCP was 50 lakhs a year. This was in 2002. And it could not have gone up extremely. a lot more by the time I quit 8 years later but I honestly can't remember what it was.
I remember that only because when I brought in someone else as my partner I said that you know we both would like to have the same salary and I was told no you need to have higher so I said okay then give me 51 and give him 50. That's how I just believe, that was my style. And then later on I was told, Lewis, you will get carry but not the rest of the team. And then I said that I'm not getting it.
Either the team gets it or nobody gets it. It's as simple as that. But anyway, so honestly I don't remember what it was. it was more than I thought of when I started my career. So how did ISPP happen and what exactly is the idea behind running that institution?
So, so I have zero knowledge about public policy, by the way. So I'm going to ask you as dumb questions as possible. That's okay.
That is nothing. I, I, I, listen, I own the price for king of dumb questions. Okay. So, so, so that's, you don't try to take that away from me.
So PATH started the Center for Civil Society, it was only back in 97. He was a professor at University of Michigan and he decided to come back to India and work with youth talking to them about the idea of free markets, liberty. And he was the lone voice at that time talking about it. And at the Center for Civil Society, we've been involved in a lot of different initiatives.
And one of the things we did very successfully successfully has been running something called I Policy, which is short three, four day interventions where we will go to colleges and work with the students over there, opening their mind to ideas. What kind of colleges are these? St. Xavier's College in Mumbai.
Undergrad colleges. Undergrad colleges, etc. Or even like in law colleges, in law college in Gandhinagar, etc.
The Gokhale Institute. And obviously, over time, they've picked up the capability themselves. And CCS was frankly the only institution at that time talking about this.
So Parthas had influenced a whole generation of young people about thinking of accountability, capitalism, free markets, etc. And... In fact, he recently was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award by Atlas Network in New York for his being a champion of liberty.
So, we basically said, Lewis, why don't you be the chairman of our board of advisors? And then we spent more time and I became the chairman of the board of trustees. And we said, you know, there are some... One of the colleges was setting up a public policy school.
They'd asked me to sort of help and I said, listen, Parth should be the guy who actually should be involved. And then after some time he said, Lewis, why don't we set up a public policy school? And... And I said, you know, where are the jobs? There's no point setting up a school if, you know, people can't get jobs.
And we realized that, you know, the world wasn't ready yet for it. And again, you know, you look back, and then when we finally, a year or so later, when we saw that the world was changing, people were looking for people who had some public policy experience that's when we got involved with we said okay let's set up a school so the idea again like all these other stories of mine was not my idea it was Parth's idea to set this up and we said we'll set it up as an independent organization like the Indian School of Business where we don't give a degree but it's the reputation of our training which is what will employers will see and that's what we've done we now graduating our fifth batch and it's really the strength of our faculty and the quality of the scholars that we take in which is really built up the institution here so how many people will usually apply every year? So it varies. So first we started in 2019 and within six so we study first of all a new thing called public policy we're starting a new institution called the indian school of public policy we have a class size of some 60 odd students and covet happens talk about you know walking into a storm we actually this is interesting we had um One of our faculty members who taught national security was a retired chief of our vice chief of army staff and he had taken organized for a trip for us students to go and visit an army post on the border with Rajasthan and Rajasthan border with Pakistan and over there The lockdown was announced.
So they never came back to campus. They all went home. And so we had to move online, etc. So it was a struggle trying to get people to, first of all, recruit from this new institution in a field that they don't know and not... recruited from before.
But we managed to place everyone here. So we have the current batch is 50. We've graduated students from that. They come from different backgrounds. And uh And they've, you know, gone on to do some fabulous stuff. And I'd love to actually, if it's okay with you, tell you about some of the things that our alumni are doing.
Yeah, sure. Because that's what it is. That'd be very helpful.
But, you know, you asked earlier, you know, what is public policy? Yeah. So.
You know there's a story about teaching someone, giving someone fish is philanthropy or charity. Teaching them to fish is skilling. But what happens if you sort of had a world where it was profitable to fish? And it was easy to become a fisher person.
Then people will become, will go fishing. Because they will buy, get fish and then sell. So then they need nets, someone will make nets. They need boats, someone will make boats. They need to store the fish, someone will...
cold storage, that whole ecosystem gets created because it is profitable to fish. You don't need to spend any money teaching people how to fish because there will be a teaching institution to teach fishermen because people know that if I I learn fishing, I will be able to make a livelihood. So there's no need for you to skill because the market would have basically set that up to train people to fish. And then because those people are earning money fishing, you don't need to give them fish.
So that's what public policy is about. How do you create the policies which therefore enable activity to flourish? Public policy are the rules that govern the way we react and transact with each other.
I've been a beneficiary of public policy changes both professionally and financially. 91, the markets opened up. People say, oh, Lewis, you had really great vision to come back in 89. As I told you earlier, I came back because I got drunk.
I was going to have dinner with a friend here. So to me, that was the. The lesson that, you know, so I had no idea that the markets were going to open up in 91, but I benefited from that.
In 93, around that time, the government announced the setting up of private sector banks. That was a public policy initiative. And I got a chance to be in my first startup.
We never called it startup in the days. We were just setting up a new bank. All these new words like startup. cap tables, et cetera, were not words that we used at that time here. And then the government in the budget of 2002, the finance minister, Yashwant Sinha, announced the setting up of an infrastructure equity fund.
because they wanted more private investment into infrastructure. That is how I got into infrastructure and private equity. So that again was a public policy change.
So I have seen the benefit of it. I have seen how it enables activity. The question is how can we have that multiplied by 10,000.
That's the sort of changes we want. So from what I understand is public policy is basically helping the government take some policy decisions for the growth of the infrastructure. nation, right? Like all the examples that you give. So anyone who graduates from this institute would be like helping the government take some policy decision.
Is that correct way to understand? Yes. So maybe, you know, when we talk about where some of our students have gone, you'll get a flavor for the different roles.
Because the roles are in all three, in Samad, Sarkar, Bazar. So it's not just only in the government. So we've traditionally looked at public policy being the domain of people in the government. In fact, you know, even in the IS. What they're taught is actually public administration.
It's the Indian administrative service. It's not public policy. Even a lot of the public, some of the schools which talk about public administration, not public policy. So let's look at where some of our students have done or are going.
So there's one guy called Umesh Jadhav. Umesh grew up in small town. His father passed away when he was young, had a bad car accident and he went to a government-run boarding school in Nanded.
Then went to study. I went to college in Pune and became a software engineer and worked in an IT company in Pune and just realized that that's not what he wanted. He is a kid who didn't have a lot, getting to work in the private sector, decides, okay, I don't want to be in this. And he went to Gachiroli and worked for a non-profit called Search run by the Bunks. And then he sort of, you know, ended up at ISPP.
At ISPP, because of his background, etc., he also, I think also before that, he also did, he worked with the Maharashtra government on the village transformation program. After ISPP, he joined something which the University of Chicago runs in India, where I'm a trustee of, is the International Innovation Corps. And he then was attached to the UP government working on their whole digitization for healthcare.
And now he has moved to Hyderabad and working for Cegis, which is looking at some other sort of aspects about it. So that's where Umesh is involved. So he's on the outside working with the government as a consultant and building on his skills of technology and improving government technology systems over there.
Similarly, there's a lady called Prachi who is interested in emerging technologies. quantum side. She's again studied computer science, if I remember correctly, in Rajasthan. And she then became a Young Tech Leaders Fellow.
It's a program we ran again at Chicago together with Omedia Network. And she was attached to ORF, Observer Research Foundation, and working very closely with the government on all the quantum stuff that they're doing. And she then is now actually heading off to do a master's program at Georgetown.
She says that's where she's been involved with. We have another sort of alum of ours, Pankuri, who I love her story. She was, like me, the lowest paid person in her graduating class. So she said she had no work experience. She said that she wanted to work in PRS.
and work as an assistant to a member of parliament and that's what she did. She worked at PRS as a lamb fellow and worked with this guy who was a member of parliament from Shillong, if I'm not mistaken, yeah, Shillong. And she then, after that, wanted to continue working over there and she got a job with the World Bank where she worked for half, they have these consultants where you work for half a year.
And she ended up being the lowest paid in her class to on a per day basis being the highest paid in her class. And she just was so driven by what she wants, she's now heading to the London School of Economics to do a master's program on a fully funded Commonwealth scholarship. So you're seeing also people sometimes go on to study further and do stuff. Then we have Himanshu, who is an engineer. He studied ceramic sciences, whatever that is here.
And he, when COVID happened, the government reached out to us saying, can you give us people to help us in the COVID war room? And he put his hand up, his family was horrified, everyone was horrified, like, you know, COVID's happening and you're supposed to stay away from people. He said, no, I'm going to go, I want to work in the government and I'm going to go over there. And it's now been four years and he is still working with the government.
He was involved in the COVID war room and he is now with the... National Health Mission continue to work. It's a fellowship program, part of the International Innovation Goal at Chicago.
And so he's been working over there, working on health policy matters all along. And then we've got a current student, for example, Prakrit Mathur, who spent a few years preparing for the UPSC examination. And didn't get through and he joined us and he's going to be working with one of the consulting firms starting in July and he is at the moment doing an internship with an industrial company where he's just pitched a business idea to them what they will do here.
He calls me up and says Lewis I've got to make this presentation to three managers and I'm not sure you know this is what I'm planning to do etc. He's just so full of life here. In fact, it's interesting.
So I was on campus one day and we were... Launching the mission to the moon and it was going to land at a particular time. And he said, Louis, you know, we have a class at that time.
Can you instead change your class and let's actually the whole class watch the lunar landing? And I said, sure. And I said, I'll give you another.
Let's make it more interesting. One of my classmates from school used to be the dean of the physics, physical. research laboratory in in in Ahmedabad I'll ask him and to do a session with us before the class and tell you more about that mission and you know so so that's you know it's just initiatives like that which make you interesting so so you see people someone's working for the government someone's working for an for an NGO which is working with the government someone's working in the consulting area in the private sector you know for policies etc then you have people also working with Corporates, today you're seeing that there's a much larger need, despite whatever has been said in the government. The government is more involved in our lives.
The government is there as an enforcer of law, as a customer, as a supplier, as a competitor, as a sort of partner because they take a share of your profits and taxes, etc. So they're all over the place. How do you interact with them?
So we run a program for companies called Understanding Government, for example. And therefore, companies also are building up large public affairs teams. In the past, it was all about, you know, just smooching with people in the government.
Now it's about how do you prepare policy papers, how do you work, you know, on improving the sort of the collective sort of growth of the company as well as helping your business. So companies also are looking to recruit people over here. So it's a mix of... So what is the average package which students usually get after graduating from...
I think on average, the salary range is between 7 lakhs and 20 lakhs. Okay. It depends again on the years of experience and the relevant experience. So we have people who have no work experience, then we have some people who have 10 plus years of experience. So that's the sort of range that people are out over there.
Do you think that... Like public policy jobs are underpaid in India and like it should match the private sector which is there? Clearly.
In fact, one of the challenges the profession has and that's something which we are working on at ISPP is how do people understand the value proposition of a public affairs professional? I mean there are a lot of profession which are underpaid starting with teachers here but that's a separate point okay so you know one of the the Tata group approached us a few couple of years ago to run a program for them to talk about where the theme was really that every CXO part of their KRA is the ability to deal with the government how do we teach that how do we get them to understand that And that's something which is therefore important for us. And that's what we are looking to develop over there. And so clearly, public policy professionals need to get paid more because they're playing a very important role.
So in fact, the other day, we partnered with an organization called PAFI, the Public Affairs Forum of India. And we were talking about, you know, how do you measure success? And so one of the guys was saying that, you know, his MD was sitting with him and saying, you know, how do I evaluate your performance?
And he said, did we have any scandal that came out in the papers in the year about this company? He says, no, that's success. You know, so therefore it's various ways.
So we're working with them about, you know, how can we look at, you know, improving the value proposition of what... A public affairs person does. And any idea in terms of how many people in India would be interested in public policy and how many jobs are also available?
Like, one is the demand side, which is the jobs. One is the supply side, which is the inflow of students. So, what would those numbers be?
I don't know. See, what's happening is that today, there are two parts to this. One is the number of schools teaching public policy have gone up.
I don't think the number of jobs. has gone up the way it should. Clearly they need to have more jobs, but a lot of people, especially in the HR profession, don't understand the need for recruiting more people.
Because you... Because it's really how do you articulate the value proposition for a role like this in a company, besides people looking at this as just a public affairs PR job. And that's something which is important. And as you've seen from some of the profiles of the students we have, all part of that ecosystem of creating value for various people.
So that's the thing. The other thing was I was talking recently to the dean of one of the leading business schools in the country. And they were, they said, you know, he said he's under pressure to start a public policy program. And their analysis shows that it doesn't, it's not sustainable. And that's unfortunately the challenge.
Because today, a public policy professional gets paid a fraction of what someone getting out of business school gets. But what the public policy professional, which I've learned and appreciated, I'm a C.A. and an MBA and not a public policy professional person is that they bring a huge amount of money to value to the organization but they get paid a fraction so as therefore the fees you can charge for a policy course is not the same that you can charge for a business course and this is a business school their cost structure is this the students don't get so much so for the ROI so therefore if they were to charge lower it doesn't become sustainable from there they have to supply so we for example I saw that ISPP the fees we charge don't cover our cost we have to rely on philanthropy to make it sustainable. So what are the fees you usually charge at ISPP?
It's little under 10 lakhs. Okay and this is for what duration? One year. It's a one year program. And this is after undergrad like?
After undergrad. It's a post graduate program. Okay. But I can confidently tell the students that at this price your ROI you will recover your first year salary will cover that cost.
Now just imagine that if your starting salary was 20 lakhs, then we can take up the fees and not have to rely on philanthropy. But today, unfortunately, it doesn't get paid. And one of the things that we see happening is starting salaries hopefully going up over time. Got it.
Which then, we will continue to do it. We will rely on philanthropy, but a lot of other places will struggle because either you can't get philanthropy money or you can't figure out how to make it sustainable. Right. No fair.
And this is an offline campus. which you are running, right? Yes, correct.
We have a campus in Hauskas in Delhi. Okay, got it. And like people, like for people who want to, let's say, get to know or apply and also like they have like a proper application process?
We have an application process. We don't look just at cut-off marks. Got it. So we actually look at the entire, we had this whole discussion when we started off. You know, whatever people we want to get, the person with the highest marks, you know, you want the most interesting people.
So it's really a combination of your academics because you've got to have a basic ability ability to understand and be hardworking and challenging etc but then there's also group discussion there is we look at the entire profile of the student at the applicant before emitting and yep admissions are actually still open. Got it. Very interesting. Actually this is very new for someone like me also and even for the audience I feel that there is lack of awareness in my opinion on public policy and I think people should know about that.
impact as you rightly mentioned that these professionals are having on the Indian economy. So once more awareness would be spread out in terms of the direct impact, then I think more people would be interested to apply and then even do these kind of jobs is what I feel. But I think lack of awareness is something which I feel at least in my network and vicinity is what is happening. Oh sure. I guess.
To be honest, I didn't know much. I didn't appreciate. I knew there was a public policy school. I knew about it. But until I really got involved with Parth and the Centre for Civil Society, I wasn't involved.
where I didn't appreciate fully even when I was a beneficiary of public policy through HDFC bank and at IDFC we knew there was a that we the laws changed because but we never really understood what is all that went behind it to get that law changed to get that pro how do you get consensus or get people to come up with something like this. I can see the passion and zeal that you have like about ISPP like I mean I can sense that from the answers as well and even like all these stories that you just mentioned i didn't know that jobs like these also exist honestly where people are helping the up government and all of that in order to just i didn't know that myself just like uh last couple of questions uh like you're also an avid reader and you've recommended books like my train 18 story about one day bharat and red notice which i have also read about investing in russia yes Right, right, it's there. So what are like some top three books you would like to recommend to all our audience and how it has impacted your life? So to me there are four books which I have at the moment which, let's see if I remember them, which I am in various stages of completing. One's a book called Why We Sleep.
I think that's what it is, Why We Sleep. The second is... Why we fall sick. Third is bad therapy. It's about how, you know, we've just gone overboard on mental illness.
Then this lady argues that a lot of people have a genuine problem. But I think it's become just over the therapist's session. I mean the world has just gone a bit overboard on this.
And it's a fascinating insight into some of the stuff. And then the fourth book is... Is there any book on networking or something?
Because you've mastered that. So is there any book you've read there? or are you planning to write one? How to Know a Person. That's the book that I was studying about.
That's the fourth book. But now do I, is there a book on networking? There's actually a lot of interesting stuff out on the net.
Harvard Business School has a whole series they've done on negotiation, networking. But, you know, it's, so, you know, so that's on negotiation. But on networking, there's a great professor at Chicago Booth called Ron Burt. And if you... you know, check some of the YouTube videos he has.
There's this lovely one, which is basically a series of four or five short videos on different aspects of it. So, like, last three questions, which are, like, little money related, because, like, this is more about, like, money podcast as well. Yep, yep, yep.
So, the first one is, basically, when was the first taste of success you had? And, like, if possible, like, what was the amount or what was the money that you won? Like, when was that aha moment for you? So, I think it was when...
We were at HDFC bank and the ESOPs went in them, well they were always in the money because we got them at 10 bucks. But when they got vested and you suddenly had value which you could have. And I don't remember again the numbers because as you can see.
it's never been this thing about you know if you ask me today Lewis how much what do you want today I have no idea we just set up a trust for the kids and again I have no idea what the numbers are here But yeah, I remember because when I was at, when we got married, this is an interesting story. So it was a month end and I was like, you know, running treasury sales for HSBC. It was the end of the month.
There was no money in the bank. My credit card limit had been bust. So it was a Saturday. So Fiona had gone out and I said, okay, let me cook because we don't have, what are we going to eat?
We can't go to a restaurant. My credit card is tapped. So that's how I learned how to make dal. But you know, it's from back from that where we were. I remember even when she finished her PhD, she went to defend her dissertation after we got married.
I didn't have the money to go and, you know, for her, when she got her PhD and attended her graduation. So, for our fifth year reunion at Business School, I couldn't afford to go there. So, but I think it was an HDFC bank when we, you know, the ESOPs vested with us and suddenly you see that, oh, I have so much of assets with me. That's really when it struck you that, oops, I have so much.
in the bank here. Got it. And that's really it, you know, so it's never been about the salary, it's really about the wealth creation on stock or in carried interest which really took me a while.
where I am today. Got it. What is one purchase or investment that you regret? Purchase or...
Well, if you look at it, the way I paid for my flat by selling HDFC bank stock, you could say was something which in hindsight was bad. I mean, the house I couldn't afford today because it's also gone up in price but not as much as the HDFC bank stock here. But... Something that I would have regretted...
Actually no, because I just realized over time I don't have regrets. Maybe it's that the dealing room exposure that I had. You really don't have regrets in life. You have good positions and bad positions.
positions and as long as the losses on the bad positions are cut early and you make overall more on the long and the good ones, you're doing fine here. So, yep. So, no, do I have any regrets?
They're all minor ones here. Nothing which I would say, oops, it's been a disaster. This is a tricky one.
If you were to become someone's assistant, what would your hourly rate be? Would my hourly rate be? Yeah. Oh, it's...
Oh, I would pitch it such that it's going to be a bit of a bullshit answer. I wouldn't pitch it too high. that I have to be obligated to be when they want me to be there. And I wouldn't pitch it too low that they don't see the value.
And this is actually what Mohandas Pai told me years ago. He said, Louis, if you're advising anyone on their business, charge them. What you do with the money is your call, but charge them. And there are sometimes people I do who I tell them, okay, you pay me, you just give it to charity. Or even if they give it to me, I give it to charity because I'm not doing that for the money.
But to see the value, it should be there. And that's what I learned over time, from the same conversation with Nasser. Just be fair to people.
And I believe that, you know, we were just talking the other day with some friends about people leaving and how do you retain people. I don't think people, they may finally leave because of money or a better job, etc. But the reason they start looking for something is because they hit their boss.
Their boss has pissed them off. And that's what's the advice actually to give anyone over here. here is if you're if you're managing a team of people actually let me rephrase that years ago when I was leaving HTFC bank one of my colleagues told me Louis you were the toughest boss I ever had but you were the fairest and and I presume he meant it as a compliment but but I'm tough because work has to get done I mean there are targets to be met we're not there but I'll be fair if you're working late I'll be there If you have to do something, if you made a mistake, I'll cover up for you if it is a genuine mistake.
So things like that. So and that's really what is so. So come back to the philosophy question which you asked about, you know, what would I charge or something?
It'll be something which I want to get the benefit from it, but I'd also be fair. Fair. Last question is again a tricky one.
So this I ask to all my guests. If you were in the shoes of Kushal Loda and if you were interviewing Mr. Louis Miranda, what is one question that you would like to ask him towards the end of the interview? Tell me more.
more about the tattoos on your hand so tell me more about the tattoos in your hand okay so this is about risk awareness so in 2010 i uh I had, it was my midlife crisis here. I quit my job, I climbed a mountain with our son who was 12 at that time, Kelly Manjaro. I completed the Greek, the Athens marathon, the 2500th anniversary with all of the private equity guys. I walked most of it and then I also got a tattoo over here which Which in hindsight was a bad idea because I was risk averse.
I wanted to be in a place where it wouldn't be seen in public. But it was there. And you suddenly realize that what's the point of getting it if no one can see it.
So for our 25th wedding anniversary, Fiona said that, you know... what should we do and then this was this was a cheaper bet than getting diamond rings here so yeah so we both got sunflowers because marriage has been very sunny and and we used to write letters to each other because we were apart for three years so you know we did it long distance for three years and we We would write letters to each other. This was pre-internet era.
So when she would write, sign off her name and I would sign off my name. So this is how she would sign off her name. And that's what we got. She has a similar tattoo with my name on it. So we realized after 25 years, we're not going to leave each other.
So we can tattoo our names on it. each other. Do you remember any interesting letter that you wrote to her or she wrote to you?
Which you can mention in public of course. So actually, if you, she told me many years later that my letters were very boring. It was a calendar of events, what I did on Monday, I did this Tuesday, I did this.
She said it was the most unromantic stuff there. But I would tell her, like, this is how I keep in touch. So yes, I was not very romantic.
But I must tell you this other story actually. About... about... how we... Do you have time?
Yeah, of course. I mean, if you have time then... Okay, what's the time?
Oh my gosh. She... I didn't realize how much...
how long we've been talking. It's a compliment for me. Okay, we'll end this.
So we were dating long distance, etc. We decide that she's coming down a year later and everyone was expecting us to get engaged, get married etc. And we realized I was just causing too much tension about this engagement thing etc.
So let's talk about marriage. We went to see a movie at Eros Theatre. At...
Yeah, it was a movie called Pretty Woman. And during the movie, I decided that I gotta get married. So she still hasn't forgiven me for the fact that I saw a movie about a prostitute and then decided to get married.
So we come out of the theater and there's this guy selling vegetables at Churchgate station. Now you know its importance as you know about getting market information and feedback etc. So I went to him and asked him whether I should marry her and we had this conversation.
He's trying to, he's my Hindi, first of all, my Hindi is bad. And he must be like, who's this idiot coming and asking me this stupid question? But he said, I should marry her.
So next day I proposed to her. And many years later, I bumped into Richard Gere on a flight. He's the one who acted in the movie. And I told him the story.
And he said, yes, over the years, many people have come and asked him about, told him that, you know, it's influenced him. But yeah, sometimes life is just full of these random moments. And these crazy moments.
You're a very quick executioner. I think you take decisions first and then you just have to execute it. And I've been lucky.
And that's, I think that's an important thing. We didn't talk enough about luck. Yeah.
I've been lucky and lucky plays a very important life. Everyone believes that it's their brilliance which has done it. True, there's a lot of calls I've taken and I've been crazy, etc.
But I've just been lucky that a lot of these calls have actually worked out right from finding a life partner to the, you know, the HDFC bank story, the IDFC, the ISPP, etc. but I also feel luck is directly proportional to the amount of hard work that you put in so that's the way I put it but it's not just hard work there's a lot of people who work hard but there's sometimes aren't that lucky but and there's some people who are just lucky without working hard you need to be at the right time and the right place and everybody got to work hard also yeah correct thank you so much Luis for this next time I am inviting you and Fiona both of you for the podcast thank you so much I enjoyed a lot sorry for taking up so much time I just had a great time here no I had a great time thank you so much for doing this I hope you got some value from this video. If you got some value, I request you to share this video with at least one friend you know so that they also can get a lot of insights from this. And please let us know which part you liked the most, which part you didn't like at all and which type of guests you want.
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