My favorite thing about it is like it just feels the most like me. Yeah. So like I remember you know you talk to people and they're like, our albums are never finished.
They just like take it off you. And this was definitely the most that. It's okay.
That's it. I love it. I listened once.
I didn't go like, ah not that. So just... For now.
Yeah. And then you listen to it finished and you're like... Maybe I'll... Are you guys going to stay here all night? Thank you crew.
This isn't the beginning, this is the end of what was a beautiful day this time. I've been looking forward to it since the last time. When myself and Harry Styles sat down to talk about Fine Line, we were on the coast in California.
We watched the sun go down with no sense of what was to come, the two years that changed the world for all of us. But as we come together again and the song says, it's not the same as it was. Harry who sits before us all is not the same. You can hear it in the brand new album Harry's House. The growth.
It's a triumph. You're gonna love it and we have a lot to talk about. Starting with the deep turquoise detail.
Nice nails. Thanks. Thanks for having me.
And your nails. Thanks for having us. I love what you've done with Pleasing.
I think it's awesome and it's funny, you know, because I was walking around Coachella on the first weekend and everyone's nails. And it's just like my kids were doing it and they were doing mine at the beginning of quarantine. And of course it's fun, it's an awesome thing, but what made you want to do that?
I know it's a strange place to start, but I just noticed your nails. I think for me, like, a big part of it is... Like, I really like making stuff and I really like kind of coming up with ideas and collaborating with...
I feel like I'm really lucky the people around me that I get to work with are really fun to work with and... you know, working's like my favorite thing to do. So based in the fact that I think it obviously begins as a hobby, so then like getting to make stuff for work, I feel like is a real gift.
I think if I didn't think about it too much, much I would be making music and putting out music constantly but I'm also aware that I'm a total control freak and I want everything to be perfect so the idea of like I made these four songs I'm just gonna put out an LP because I made it I'm just like it's just not how I think of it I'm glad you said that because I think that there is this um especially now there's this kind of subliminal urgency in the arts to constantly feed and I always really welcome that kind of of opposing philosophy which is like, yeah, haste is fine, but care is a whole other thing. Yeah, I think the biggest thing that resonated for me, I can't remember what, I think it was maybe like the Emmys or something and Michaela Collier won and she said like, you know, don't confuse visibility with success. I think it's so, it's just like, it can't be put better than that, I think. And it's not an easy thing.
place to get to because it's a world where like we all just want to be loved and then inside that like music is an industry where everyone just really wants to be loved. It's a psychology thing huh? Yeah and everyone's just kind of like you know gagging for it and that kind of positive like reinforcement. And not to dark tower it but there's more than enough parts of the experience that are willing to play into that desire for love and it's like cool you want to work we'll keep you working yeah and i think what is so exciting and like dangerous about it is that you put so much love into an industry that's so fickle and that like it loves you back when you're doing well and like if you're not you're just out out and and that's like it's understandable that it's really scary to go away and be like, you know, no one's talking about me, you know, no one cares, or like all of that stuff, get into that kind of place, and like I have to get onto social media and like remind people I'm alive, or all of that stuff, and I just kind of feel like I did a lot of that kind of constant thing when I was in the band, and it's really easy to kind of brush off.
you know, the pandemic, everything that happened, and brush off the kind of, oh, it was a big time for self-reflection and a lot of perspective changes and all of that stuff, which everyone went through, to kind of go like, oh, I went through it. Big phase of self-reflection that's really kind of like airy. But it doesn't mean it's not true.
We can't brush it off and in fact I didn't want it today because of that. I think everyone's so exhausted talking about it but there are some things we should never forget. Yeah, you're never going to be up here forever so you better find something else that makes you happy. Because the... best people who are truly like unicorns of music are the ones who do it and then are gone so you never see them anywhere else and eventually they're up here here enough that when they come back it matters.
For a really long time I was terrified of what my life was if I wasn't up here doing music like on a show doing something. And then you're faced with a time when you can't do that and the great leveler of like it doesn't matter how much money you have, doesn't matter where you live, doesn't matter this, doesn't matter that, you can't travel, you can't do this, you can't go outside your house, it's like suddenly you're forced to not be this musician guy. You're forced to be like a friend and a brother and a son and all of those things. And I actually feel like I kind of had a little bit of a chance to focus on that, at least for a moment, and just stop and kind of take in a lot of stuff and remember things.
You're kind of gifted this stolen time and you feel like like, oh, I can get a head start. I can just start making stuff. And I kind of stopped for a second and looked at what I turned to listen to and what I was watching and all that kind of stuff and was like, what does it actually mean to make something? And what does it mean to me to make something as my job? So you removed time as being the primary, because that's what we're talking about.
We're talking about what you spend your time doing, how you use it to connect with people, when it's time. to make an album, when it's time to tour, time, time, time, time. Just what does it mean? Beautiful. There's so much I want to pull out of that and I'm going to try and do it in some form of some kind of lovely way, but I feel we have to acknowledge this because at one point we were going to do this in the United Kingdom, but there's something wonderful about being in this afterglow in Palm Springs, which is I'm sure how you feel a little bit after these two amazing headline shows, two Fridays on the trot, man.
You just seem super light on your feet and chill, you know, which I can imagine in a lot of ways. There's probably relief involved. That may surprise some people, but there must have been some relief knowing that you did it. I just, you know, if I'm going to put something out, whether it's a show or an album or a song, I want it to be perfect. And I think, like...
That's why I take so much stress on, I think, around something like Coachella, because I feel like I want to be good. Like, if it's not going to be good, I'd rather not do it. So, you know, in that kind of setting, no matter what it is, kind of you know the dust or the wind or however many things it's like so many things can go wrong in that situation and and it's not your show and it's my first festival so you know I'm kind of of going out to the crowd and I like knowing what I'm stepping out to.
No chance. No chance. No idea.
And that was really terrifying. What was your instinct when they asked you to do it? Did you want to run?
I think my instinct usually is like, that's too scary so I'm probably going to say no. But that's kind of like also what's fun. It's about like...
That's a little thing that gets in your stomach and that's the thing. It's hard to... to shake that. I mean it's the same thing with making an album or making a movie or something. It's like, yeah, it's obviously easier to not do it.
If your only reason to say no is because your gut's churning and you feel scared, you can't turn it back on. And I think that goes down to songs as well, like being uncomfortable with something doesn't mean it's bad. You know, it's funny, it's like the songs that when I wrote them, they kind of made me so uncomfortable because I was like, I don't know if that's, I don't really know what it is.
Like I don't know, I can't tell if I like it or not. I love it or if I hate it. That's just like the funnest place I think to make music. I remember like I played some songs to Rob Stringer when I was kind of like getting close to feeling like the album was getting somewhere and As It Was was like the last song I played as part of like the added bunch because I was like I don't know if this will be on the record or anything.
Rob's your record boss by the way and Rob's also one of the most British people you live with in your life. going to totally the truth in a very unflinching fashion. Yeah, I just feel like that kind of uncertainty is always the best.
Really? You know, it was your first festival, but also you went out on stadium stages really, really early on in your whole journey as an artist. And so that side stage, that deep end, you've done that before. But I wanted to ask you what that level of applause and that level of reaction from that many people, how that's changed for you then versus now. Like, are you able to absorb it more now, appreciate it in a different way, see it in a different way?
Coming out of the band I definitely felt like I have to get comfortable with the fact that I might not do that again. I'll probably never do that again. To that level? Yeah.
It just felt so separate from any individual. It felt like, you know, you were never on stage being like, yeah, this stadium's full because of me. Yeah.
It felt like the band was like this thing that kind of like hovered above all of us. And... We each played a part in that, but it was all... Slightly disconnected in a strange way.
And it's hard to say that it means more, because I guess personally, obviously, there's something to it that is so unbelievably touching. Something about maybe you can fluke it once or maybe something. And I think when I did the first tour and the crowd was there, I just kind of felt like, holy sh**, like this is...
I don't know, it just made me feel so liberated. The crowd is so emotionally generous that they just want me to be having a good time. And I can feel that.
Doing shows is my favourite thing to do, like in the world. And it's really easy to be like... You know, when it stops being fun, I'll stop doing it.
I wouldn't feel good like having people buy tickets. You don't want to fake it. If I'm like honing it in. I don't know man, you know, you find other ways to connect. What I'll say is that from a fan's point of view, watching you on stage...
right now feels really special to be in that crowd. As a fan, and you know I am, but to be around sort of on that night, whatever it was, 50,000, 60,000 fans, you're right, there was just this level of care. care and love that was being thrown back at you.
Normally it's how they go, I love you all so much, you're the greatest crowd ever. And I go, all right, we love you too. But it felt like people loved you before you even sang a word.
It was like, come on, we're all here. That's why I said you did it on text, because it just felt like the only thing I could say, like you did it. I feel like sometimes you get it with comedians a lot, where they come out and...
The first thing they make you feel is like you don't have to worry about me. Like I'm not asking. I'm just doing it.
And like I'm having the best time ever. I feel like Jim Harry did that like a lot. Like the first thing always felt like...
I'm good. Like this is happening and you can come and join the party or you can do whatever but it affects me zero I've just tried to do that in terms of You know, I had like before the first week I was nervous and you know, someone said to me like Just have fun It's the only thing we care about as your group of friends around you I just have so much fun when you have people around you who make you feel like that You feel like you can get back to what it's about. I think and it's really really liberating Now we all needed that 2020 I was thinking the other day like where we were in November of 2020 2019 mid-November and I couldn't get my head around that it was only a few months later that everything had changed it felt like there was so much more time between that conversation when we were on the coast and what eventually happened and then I was suddenly reminded you didn't even get to tour like you did those kind of kickoff shows you played the album played the album in LA which was awesome and then that's kind of it and like everybody had to put their plans on hold but it must have been so rewarding for you to finally get out and be able to tour that record and do it safely and wave the flag for your fans that we can do this.
The delay in it almost, I couldn't really in a lot of ways go out and promote the album. It was somehow more powerful for me, because I kind of just got to watch it do its thing. Yeah.
And then when that crowd shows up in the arena, we've lived with these songs for so long that hearing You play a song like She is just like a whole other level than where it would have been you know three six months even into that cycle. Yeah I mean I think you have, everyone has more of their own experiences with the music and stuff. What it means to them is like allowed to develop more and all that kind of stuff. But I think also for me by the time I started playing, we went out touring I'd finished this album and I got to play those songs with knowledge of what was next. So rare.
I mean I felt like I had a secret the whole time. Yeah, which is great but also that cycle of like, exhaust yourself playing the songs you once loved and then somehow drum up the creative energy to go make another batch of songs. Yeah, I think... I don't know if it works now, I don't know, I mean that was amazing what you got to do.
Yeah, I think I thought about it like, if you asked anyone if they could go back to when they felt the best about making music, would they have made another album or done another tour? And I feel like everyone would take another album. Like in the moment where they feel like, I can make stuff.
freely and feel really good about what I'm making. I feel like everyone would take an album. When I went into rehearsal for the tour, I'd just been mixing the new album, so I'd been listening to it constantly, constantly, constantly. And I get to the first rehearsal, and I'm trying to remember the words to the album before, and I was like, what are these songs?
This is crazy. Plus, they're very different songs. This is an evolution. We're going to get to that.
But the album, sonically and songwriting-wise, and the music, it's a lot of different things. we've got to spend some time on the words because your words are at another level. All that's to come in this conversation. But it's a very different experience. I mean, yeah, it's like all of a sudden you're reminded about who you were.
It must have felt like a long time ago. It's a weird time-space continuum thing at that moment. You know, the other version of like I'd gone on tour and then I'd finished the tour and been like, all right, I'm going to go make it.
another album. There has to be some fatigue there and there has to be some kind of like... I always try and keep writing always so that you don't get into the thing of like a hard stop.
and then you go, okay, now I have to follow something up or I have to prove something because that didn't go well. And my favorite thing about this album is while it's so different, I think it was very much made with the same intent as Fine Line. Which is what, if you can boil it down?
I think it just felt like from the first album, I think it wasn't necessarily like a super commercial album. And I think there was something in doing the tour and people coming and dancing and having... a good time.
It made me feel like, okay, you just want me to make what I want to make. Obviously, with the knowledge that if my favorite artist, if I went to a show and felt like, okay, they've stopped doing what they want to do, then it's not fun. It's not exciting watching someone fake it. I always feel a little bit responsible as a fan.
Maybe I'm taking it too serious. I always feel like, man, did I corner you? Right.
Did I expect you just to keep doing the same thing? There's enough. examples of it, I always just think in terms of like, oh, we really liked that, so do that again.
Yeah. You're kind of like, well, that one still exists. Yeah. You can still listen to that. Yeah.
Somebody said that actually as a famous quote. I can't remember who it was, but someone said, well, that album is around. Yeah. I feel like it was like Tyler. Yeah.
Somebody said like, you know, you like this song? It's cool. They're just over there. Right.
They're literally below you. Just a little bit. Exactly.
New one. Just under you. But it's kind of like...
You know, you try and chase that thing that you did already, and it's like maybe it sounds similar, but it's not the one that you fell in love with, so it's kind of just like not as good a version of the thing that you like. I think that's got to be artistic hell. I think if you're in a situation where you can't get past what you've achieved and you're doing it because it fills some kind of gap, some void, yeah, it's all the wrong reasons, you know. You were so good with your fans on that tour, because I was watching shows as they were being put up and scrolled.
scrolling and seeing and everything else. And I felt like you really connected with your audience, I guess partly because you hadn't had a chance to before that. And it's like, wow, we're really in the zone. And this will be the last chance you'll get to see this album because I'm not doing two runs, the only run. For people that don't know what that was like, because we were in our own COVID bubble, what was touring?
during COVID like? I think the biggest thing was like we said to everyone at the start of the tour like we have an opportunity to show everyone that it can be done if you do it properly and it hit the crews harder than everyone else is the reality and you know touring crews and everyone in that circle has a bunch of friends who are also in touring crews so it's like all of our Our friends in the touring industry are depending on us, showing that this can be done. So, you know, tested every day, you tested any time you got on a bus. Like, the isolating was super strict, no indoor dining, no like...
You couldn't do this thing, you couldn't do that thing. I'm pretty strict on tour anyway. Like, I don't drink and I go straight to sleep and all of that kind of stuff. Kind of the opposite of, I think, what everyone thinks I'm probably doing after a show.
But, you know, it's like, I was very strict on tour. I'm very, very proud of just the way that everyone took it on and banded together. You pulled it off. Covered other people when they were out. Everyone went kind of very much above and beyond their job description to kind of get it done.
Was it lonely for you at times, doing it that way? Yeah, I mean, touring's kind of lonely sometimes anyway. Yeah.
And I strangely feel very lucky that I'm used to it. And I kind of... I kind of just use the time, that time to like attempt to take care of myself as well as possible. Yeah.
And you know I'll sleep like 10, 11 hours minimum when I'm touring a night. I haven't slept that much since I was like 16. You're like six. Exactly.
But it's more like the traveling that is the tiring thing and then I kind of look at it as like, okay for a couple of hours a night, give it everything and then the rest of the night, The rest of the time I'll spend trying to take care of myself as well as I can. Yeah. And if I kind of cocoon and just focus, I can do it.
I mean, you're so responsible. I've got so many stories from my friends who have texted me or called me from the road and been like, yeah, I broke my leg. Like, yeah.
Doing what? Skateboarding. I'm like, you're on tour, dude.
What are you doing skateboarding? Didn't your insurance company give you a list of do's and don'ts? Even football. I'm on a tour.
The amount of artists that go out there and play like social football. I did it once on the last One Direction tour where I played football and I broke my foot. See? And I did one show in Dublin in like one of those big boots. And it was so not fun that I was like, okay, I'm just going to strap it up.
Yeah. And I'm going to take like some pain medication and I'm just going to do it. And then after the show, I'll just let it throb.
You know, until... And we had like two months of the tour left. Yeah. So I was kind of doing that.
It's so funny to me because like after, you know, after the show I take like an ice bath or something. Yeah. But under whatever I'm wearing I look like an old man playing tennis. I've got like knee brace and my ankles are strapped up. And like the whole thing I'm kind of like, you know.
When we spoke a few years back I asked you why we were having a conversation in L.A. and on the show. on the coast and stuff, and we talked a bit about home. And you made a really astute observation that London was the closest thing to felt like home at the time, because there was time there. But I could tell that you hadn't really committed to an answer, you didn't really know what that felt like at that moment in your life.
And I feel that for all the reasons we've just been talking about, we all had to ask ourselves, where's home, or where are we making home for the next two years, because we're restricted in travel and stuff. And you went back to the UK, and I wondered what you thought. whether you found it. Yeah, I think I had, I did the pandemic in like four chunks, really. So when it first hit, I was in LA.
So I was there until you could move around. Yeah. And I was there for maybe like two and a half months. And you recorded during that time, right?
I did, yeah. So I took like six weeks where I did absolutely nothing. And because, you know, you didn't know how it was going to be.
Well, no one was doing anything. And we were like, wiping down the surfaces of the food that was arriving. I mean, no one knew what we were doing.
And I kind of started just writing a lot after that first kind of pause. And you booked a studio. And I booked, yeah, I was back in, we went back to Shangri-La. Shangri-La, which is Rick's room in space.
Which is, you know, nice because, I mean, it's amazing, but also it's a good kind of, you can stay there and we were able to, like, bubble up. Yeah, because how did the rest of your team feel about that? I don't know how they felt or you felt, but I... I know for the first three or four months of the spring of 2020 out here, leading into the summer, I would drive up and down the 10, which is a freeway, and it was me and three other cars. I mean, it really felt like the day after tomorrow, like I am legend or something.
And yet you're already booked in studio time. Are you like, come on, we're going to get back out into it. Was anyone like, oh? It was definitely, at the start, it was definitely like, okay, is that what we're going to do? And it was kind of like, that's what I'm going to do.
That's an answer. That's it. I totally understand if you would like to come, I would really like it.
I just would have loved it if you'd shown up on your own and be like, alright, how do you work? So I did like... I was maybe in LA for about three months and then I went home and had some time not in the studio and then eventually was back in the studio and I was in England then for like several months and in that bit where you could it was right in the middle of the first year and you could like travel a little bit and stuff and I drove to Italy by myself I drove with a friend and then I drove back by myself.
What was that drive like in that in 2020? It was kind of like an open-ended And I think the biggest thing was like any gap that I'd had to go on holiday or take a trip like that would be like, OK, well, I have a week, so I'm not going to drive because I should just get there and have as much time as possible. And I drove there with a friend.
We got there, and then he flew back a couple of days later. and I just stayed there for a couple of weeks by myself and just went so slowly and felt much more like present than I'd been in a really long time. And you know, I'd walk.
walk around and I'd get a coffee and I'd sit down and drink it instead of like just be like I'll get it and I'll walk with it because I'm going somewhere else. I think like I just relaxed a lot and felt like no one knew where I was and felt like a human being and felt very small in a really nice way and driving back I was by myself. for the whole drive back and I love driving. Me too. Because it's just, you know, free.
What did you listen to? Do you remember? I listened to, like, a bunch of books because I was trying to, like, kill some time. A lot of the time, my stepdad passed away several years ago, and he'd got this car before he died, and he always wanted to...
He kind of started driving it around the UK with my mum and stuff before he passed, and they were taking a lot of, like, road trips together and stuff, and... He'd really wanted to go to Europe and it had like a lot of his old CDs in it and stuff. So like a lot of the time I would just like put these old CDs on that were just like kind of you know jazz and different kind of you know and then you accidentally flick to like some insane Italian radio station and then... Did it get emotional man at times like driving on that drive and just being on your own and having that experience and knowing what it would have meant and what it means now? Yeah.
I felt like I did a family thing and I think maybe for 12 years family things have not always been able to be the priority and maybe the way that... They should have been or I would like them to be more of going forward. And you know, you miss so many birthdays and stuff like that and then eventually like it's kind of just like assumed that you're unable to be it. stuff and I think that was kind of one of the things where I was like oh I want to take a second to like invest some more time into like balancing my life out a little bit like this working is not everything about who I am like it's something I do And I don't want to be defined as a person necessarily by, like, what I do all the time. I want to be able to kind of put that down.
And for a really long time, I didn't really know who I was if I didn't do this. And that's really scary because it's, you go like, okay, well, if this ends, am I going to be good at handling it? What am I going to feel like?
What am I coming home to? Right. Exactly.
Exactly. Because I've been away for 20 years. I've missed all these things.
Yeah, and I think it just gave me an opportunity to kind of get comfortable with who I am and kind of get to know that person a little bit more. And putting out the first single from this album was far and away the most relaxed I've ever felt putting anything out. I no longer feel like my overall happiness is kind of dependent.
on whether a song goes here or goes here. Which is amazing, because if you actually think about it, all this was happening while Fine Line was establishing that level of success on your terms and not with the band. You were finally getting back to that place that you were in with the guys. Guys, and you're having this watermelon sugar moment, and it's like number one, and then it's like eventually it's the Grammys and all these things. And you know, history, in my experience of having these kind of conversations, would suggest that that's a moment when most people try to hold on, not let go.
And yet somehow you're finding a place to actually let go of that. I mean, I feel like, you know, like I said, I wasn't able to kind of go out there and be playing and be on a TV show and play and stuff like that. And in a weird way, it was kind of like, It's not really about me.
That's what the audience thinks. To some degree, it is very much still about the music. Watermelon didn't work because I was on all of the... Selfers being like this is the new song. It's quite freeing to have a reminder that people either connect with something or they don't and either way isn't really dependent on you and I think that can be Really terrifying and you can kind of force it to connect or you can be like the only way to Leave all of this without a ton of regrets is like I make what I'm really proud of and like maybe some of it connects And maybe some of it won't some of it is bound to not to, but I found it really freeing to kind of watch Watermelon kind of happen in a way that felt very much not dependent on me.
It was kind of like you send your kid off to school and then they come back and everyone's like, people really like your child. And you're like, that's amazing. I'm so proud of that child. It's not like everyone loves me. Yeah, I know.
It's so kind of, it's so different. You know, it was kind of just like a reminder. to me that no one really knows what they're doing.
And that can be really terrifying or it can be really relaxing. And I kind of just like chose to let it be really relaxing instead. Is there a song on that album that you think has aged really gracefully that you listen to it now or you think about it now even playing it live because you probably haven't listened to the album for a while?
I mean Fine Line's probably my favorite. The last song on the album? I think so.
Yeah. Dude, that's the one. Because usually what happens is obviously you make it and you're listening to it constantly. And then it comes out and I'll listen to it once when it comes out to kind of make sure there's no like yips in the way it's been uploaded or, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then it's like, I'm probably going to stop listening to it for a while.
Why though? I don't understand. Just for a bit. No, but wait. Because you've listened to it so many times.
No, no, no. I'm done with that argument because I heard this so many times from artists. I definitely go back to it.
it but I hadn't listened to it kind of top to bottom. I never understand. I sort of get it to a degree because you have to go play it live and stuff.
Psychologically it's a strange trade because you've got to be a fan of what you make. For sure. So I wonder whether it's just was it conscious or subconscious that you decided that I can't do it. I think by the time it was going, if I had a two month gap or something and then went back to listening to it. I was working on the next one.
Right. So I didn't want to listen to the... You're creating, always creating.
You know, didn't want to listen to that one a ton. But I listened to it... I used to listen to it sometimes when I was running because I would know, like, where I am time-wise by going by the songs. I'd be like, all right, that song's going. It's time to turn around.
Like, that kind of thing. But I listened to it top to bottom for the first time in a while when it... I think like on the year anniversary. And I love it so much. I love it.
Also, I guess because I was making the new one, I kind of subconsciously stopped listening to a lot of music. I started listening to a lot of classical stuff and instrumental stuff. I think when I listen to the first record back, I can hear all the places where I was playing it safe.
I think in the second record, when I hear it back, I can tell what all the references are. I was really interested, if I don't have any direct sonic references, I don't know. I make.
I think the fun thing is listening to, I don't know, like Bill Evans or Samuel Harry or like, I listen to the Swan Lake thing a bunch and stuff. I kind of felt like you can reference things by the emotions that they evoke, but I'm not necessarily going to be like, oh, that string sounds like flames. Let's do that. And I kind of just wanted to step out of going like, I love that synth. Let's find out what that synth is and get close to that.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I found it happening by accident it makes sense because you talk about fine line, which I love and When I listened when I listened to the album When I get to the end, if I was a betting person, I'd be throwing money on the fact that that's where you would pick up from. You know, we'd go into this, you know, organically expansive space at the end of that song. The way you think you're done emotionally and then it goes...
It just like goes off into another place altogether. It's a deeply emotional moment of music and I thought, well, that's going to be where it goes. And then, you know, it's not.
And it makes sense that you were sort of searching. inward for that inspiration and not externally picking up where you left off. Because that would have been an external decision.
Well, I left there. It would have been a cerebral decision and not one with the heart. Head, not heart is what I'm saying.
Yeah, and I think like, you know, I've worked with like Tom and Tyler a lot at this point and there's a shorthand there. Which is good because neither of them can string a sentence together. And I love being able to... Feel more confident with them being like, I want it to sound like this and say a bunch of words and they can get it to what I'm imagining. I was talking to Tom the other day, I was complimenting on the and we talked about music for a sushi restaurant.
He was saying how much he loves that second verse because of the joy. And that when you're having fun, as important as it is for you to tackle those deeper subjects, there's something really infectious about that. So where does that joy come from?
Do you know how to harvest it? Do you know what brings it up or does it surprise you as well? I think it maybe surprises me sometimes as well. Tom's favorite lyrics on the album are always, without fail, the ones that aren't like grinded over.
It's always like there's something playing and it's like falls out of your mouth and then it's like this is what it is. And also like, okay, I really like making music. So if there is like a...
thing that makes it go like well you can't make that when you're 40. and i'm kind of like i want to make music that i can always make in my life that shorthand that you have with tyler and tom and the three of you creating this music now is um i didn't feel like you were trying at all maybe that's just too curtain observation but when i listen to it i'm like wow you just kind of had all the ingredients on the table and everything you put in the pot tasted excellent yeah there was definitely one kind of moment of groove where it felt like there was a couple of songs that we did in a row where it was like I don't know if these are good or bad but I really like them. Early on? Pretty early.
I think the best thing that happened to the album was when we moved into the studio first day we were setting up and it was just me and Tom we got there early and we were at late night talking. Out the gate? The first day.
Out the gate. If the thing that is stressful about making an album album is like okay what's like the song? If that is the thing that kind of puts any stress you can make a bunch of songs and then be like yeah but what's the one? And I think doing that we just then got to make the whole of the rest of the album being like we have that. I think like you said like fine line there's a finish and it feels like okay I feel like I know how the next one's going to open and I had an idea of how I thought the next one would open.
So I wasn't off the mark You were thinking, this is a good place for us to pause. Yeah, I think, you know, I like that kind of through line. And then there's something about Sushi that felt like, nah, that's how I want to start. You know, it becomes really obvious, like, what's the first song you play to people when they be like, oh, can I hear a bit of music?
It's like, how do you want to set the tone? And it's probably not this direct, but, you know, I hear a lot of Jacob Collier in my house because our kids are big fans. And I'm now subsequently a big fan. And the way that he just moves through. through those 80s jazz harmonies.
It's like, am I singing? Am I an instrument? And that stuff is so fun.
Hearing you do it and dive into that, you just lay it wide open from that point forward that anything is possible on this record. Yeah. Probably the biggest thing also was like I wanted to just make music and I stopped like singing like I used to feel like oh like I'm a singer so I should Be singing everything so I'd like try so hard to like sing. So being one voice in five, you get the shot.
Kind of, yeah. You've got to get your voice in. It's like, okay, you're going to sing the chorus.
You better f***ing sing it, otherwise you won't do it. And I found like a, like I know when I like how my voice, sounds I know when it when it feels like this just sounds like super generic and not interesting you know you have like a line of lyric that you don't know and you go like scuba-da-ba-da-ba-boo instead and it was kind of like it works this is fun You know you do it on Grape Juice as well. You introduce another side to your voice on that too, which is great. Has almost a very early McCartney-esque vibe to it, and to me at least when I listen to it, that kind of really lovely four on the floor mid-tempo groove. You know that song is just a beautiful tribute to dependency through alcohol and the hangover that follows.
Have you ever written a song with one? Drunk? No, hungover.
Not drunk, but hungover. I think there is an... A moment of...
vulnerability definitely that is so impossible to recreate definitely when it's you in an instrument feeling like pathetic or however you feel when you're at your worst moment of a hangover like a sip of water in the morning and you're like man i am not feeling good have we heard that song yeah i think fine line was kind of a little bit like that i try and write more on the up than the in the down. But it's funny because this album to me is like almost in three stages and I don't know if this is intentional. In the beginning stages there's really a search for release and sometimes that's through empathy like in Late Night Talking, a desire to try and fix a situation or searching for the through line to help somebody and therefore help yourself.
But then there's also like a dependency suite. The first four or five songs is like man. What am I going to do to kind of figure this out? Were they all written within a time frame? Am I looking too deep into it?
I don't know. It's just some interesting imagery, you know, on daylight for instance. Yeah.
Daylight was like we have to find a way to stay awake and finish this because if we all go to bed... then this is gonna turn out not what it would if we finish it tonight. So. You put it on either.
We like powered through on that one, you know, and then finished it and went down to the beach and the sun was coming up and it was like. I felt correct that we'd finished it in that place. I think there's like, you know, I'm just a big believer that life is so much about moments and especially with songs in particular, you can learn to surf and sometimes you don't get the wave and sometimes the wave comes and you haven't practiced surfing and then every now and again the wave comes and you've practiced enough that you can ride the wave and sometimes when the songs... like write themself like that, it feels like, okay there's a reason why sometimes I like sit out there falling off the surfboard a bunch and it's like it's for this moment because that moment feels so Magic. everything comes together and it, obviously you want people to like your music.
I also think it's really important that it's not where making it comes from. Like I think there is a percentage of people. people who make something that has to not care about what people think about it.
Because you're just always going to change it. But to get there, sometimes you have to go to those painful places. I hear that in As It Was, as much as it has a spring to its step, and here I am running down 65 steps on Coachella's main stage about to kick this whole thing off.
That's a song about, to me at least, when I listen to the lyrics, is about the desire of that scary moment of letting go and opening yourself up to new experiences. And that can be sad as much as it can be uplifting. thing and daylight and grape juice and there's some pain in the first sort of half of this album and I asked you where the joy lived before do you know where the pain is do you know like as it was to me is you know like bittersweet to me it's like the To me it's like really devastating and it was very much written that way.
Like I have, you know, like the voice now of it being written and it's very like In this world... It's a death march. Yeah, it's a death march.
You know, you start playing a drum beat that's faster than that, and you're like, this could work. It's also super subversive, which is cool. Because we're all up there like, do-do-do-do-do, and you're like, well, it's a sad one. That's always been, you know, the kind of... kind of fun part about music.
It's so interesting. You can, a bunch of people dancing to like your most devastating experience. Oh, Jammin'Lewis is the best in the world at it. I mean, how many times have we gone out and danced for us and danced to things? Like Rob dancing on my own.
I mean, that's a great example. As It Was is definitely one of those. And I think, you know, As It Was is about, you know, kind of metamorphosis and perspective change and the whole thing of like when you have that, it's not something you have time with.
And people go like, all right, we'll give you a couple more days. days with this moment and you get to like say goodbye to your former self or ever it's kind of like by the time you realize it's already gone and no matter it's a I think a big part of the kind of evolution of what music you make as well as like it doesn't matter If people want you to be that thing that they always loved about you, or they want you to be that person because you're not that person anymore. Everyone is changing and, you know, I think like there's no reason to...
not approach music that way and kind of let it change and turn out differently than you start it and you don't always get to realize something happens and then you kind of look at it and be like wow and then you get to decide whether that is devastating or brilliant and accept the fact that it's probably both that's the trade yeah that's the trade and i mean now that we've cracked open as it was to some degree because when it came out i think everybody was dancing yeah and now that we've cracked it open and we've revealed its true nature a little bit can i ask you what you were going through at least what you felt you were experiencing or feeling when those words came out you know i was in england for like i said i started the pandemic in LA, went back to England for a while, came back to LA for a while, walking and then went back to England for a while. All four of those moments were the longest I'd been anywhere for 10 years, 11 years. I just got to like sit for a second and you create this kind of like space for yourself and obviously and everyone kind of had their world shrunk and you really became abundantly clear like who you missed and who you didn't miss. didn't miss and who you wanted to spend time with and what felt more important and all of those things. It was kind of like, all right, we've gone through a portal and you can't necessarily go back through the door. Once you know something, it's hard to unknow it.
It's impossible. I think going kind of-That's what therapy tells you on day one. Yeah.
I find therapy to be a really good example of it because I feel like for a really long time, I- I kind of emotionally coasted. I didn't really feel anything. And we'd go through real highs in the band and stuff and it would always just feel like a relief.
Like, oh, we didn't fail. That feels like a massive relief. I never really felt like I celebrated anything.
And I had a great time, truly. A great time is a distraction too, by the way. Right, right. That's another form of dependency. I'm having a great time.
And I think sometimes with therapy as an example is that you're not alone. It's like you open a bunch of doors in your house that you didn't know existed. You find all these rooms and you get to explore them. And then in a time when it would be easier to emotionally coast, you can no longer do that because you know the room exists.
And the scale has just widened. And you feel everything that's bad so much harder. You feel the good moments so much harder.
And there's obviously moments when you're at this end where you go, well, is it worth it? opening the windows and finding the other space. That's the work part of it. Yeah, if you do this, you never have to go there. Yeah.
If you don't do this, then you never get to go there. Here's the thing, even when you're at the start of that and it feels daunting and it feels really terrifying, what you're going to discover or where you're going to go. Like I said, the important thing to remind yourself is there's no going back through the doorway, I don't think. You can't reverse that decision, I think.
Yeah. You make a commitment to that. I think also just obviously accepting that... Happiness isn't this kind of final resting place like life is about. Yeah the peaks and troughs and I think the same with music you start out and everyone kind of You know tells you of this place like if you do it like this for a few years, you get to this place, you can do whatever you want.
And it's like, if you just do what you want, that place exists. But if you're like chasing this thing and think that if I keep jumping through hoops, I'll get to this place where I get to do whatever I want, you have to just keep jumping through hoops until someone's like, all right. There are only sort of four other people on the planet who can relate to your experience in that regard. And you have come through the other side and done some work and made some music and got to a place where I think we've established so far that it's like you're in a good place.
You know, I think about a song like Keep Driving, which I know isn't specifically about this, but there's an escapism to that. Again, that's a great distraction. Do you sort of keep a keen eye on your friends that were in the band because I'm sure they've been through it too.
I mean you can't not in your own time privately have been through some of what you're describing that sense of uncertainty those moments of really crippling doubt that no one can truly understand except you guys because of the circumstances you're in. You know I look at people who kind of did... You know, kind of went through like some version of what we went through but on their own.
I'm like, I can't imagine having done that really. It's like, I feel really lucky that we always like... ...had each other to be this unit that felt like you could keep each other in check and you could...
Yeah. You know, just like have someone else who gets it. Because it's impossible to not, at times, I think everyone experiences...
is this, feel like, oh, everyone else is on the other side of the glass and I'm on this side of the glass and no one really gets it. And I think having that is like kind of priceless. You still feel like you have that?
If push came to shove, do you feel like that's a blessing bond that can't be broken like I think there is a very much like a respect between all of us of like we did something yeah together and that is something that you can't really undo yeah and you know it's like a very deep love for each other I think you know as it was in particular to me was like you know it's not the same as it was as a kind of through line of the whole thing of like from From that, you can then explore what the verse says and what the second verse says and what the bridge says and all that stuff. To me, it's like everything that happened in the pandemic, it's never going to be the same as before. All of the things happening in the world, it was so obvious that it's just not, you can't go backwards, whether that is us as a people or me in my personal life or any of those things.
so much in those moments, are forced to like face things head on, whether that is your least favorite things about the world or your least favorite things about yourself or all of those things. It's like you just can't then pretend that stuff doesn't exist. You're right, it's bittersweet too. It's a super sad realization. It's like the end of something is really, man, you may wake up a couple of days later and feel like the whole world is wide open, but there's going to be a few days of acknowledging that.
couple of really poignant moments on the record where you scale things right back but Matilda is a total standout classic middle of the middle of the album moment you know if you think of it this way I think of vinyl and I think that's it's perfectly in the overall. Yeah finishing the first side was always gonna be that. It had to be.
Once again you're sort of writing from this really this position of real emotional intelligence you're offering a point of view For a protagonist, a female, a woman who's going through something, trying to give her the strength to move forward in life and not feel that sense of shame and guilt, which keeps everybody rooted in one place. You're no stranger to that POV. Where are you when that comes to you, or do you any closer to understanding why you're able to write so eloquently from the point of view?
in particular from a female's point of view, under those kind of challenging circumstances, you seem to love these stories, or none of love is the right word, but you write them beautifully. Thank you. I feel like making an album is so incredibly navel-gazing, like it's so self-absorbed as a thing. We don't talk about that, because otherwise all music comes apart, and we never talk about it again.
But I think what is affecting you in a moment, what you feel like you want to be able to... to say to someone in a way that is strangely easier than calling them and being like, just so you know, I want to tell you this or something. It's like, it's also kind of a nice reminder that like sometimes the thing that's more important to...
say is to someone else and you know like okay I could spend this day when I'm feeling this thing and thinking about this thing I can try and write another song that's like fun about like how I've like fancy someone and I think they're really great. Or I can be like, no, I'm thinking about this thing. Were you thinking about someone in particular? Yeah. And I had an experience with someone where in getting to know them better, they revealed some stuff to me that was very much like, oh, that's not normal.
And I think for a lot of people, obviously, what you know in your experience is what you're going to feels like it's everything you know. It's easy to kind of mistake it as being, I don't know, I guess in this specific case, like regular behavior. And I think being able to be like, that's not normal, and I think, you know, you should maybe get some help or something to kind of go into that a little more.
Matilda, for example, is kind of like, I think Matilda's kind of relatively self-explanatory, so I mind doing it less, because, you know, obviously I think it's important, like, it means a certain thing to everyone but I like that it was this personal story to me about someone else being able to say like this thing is more important than Me just making music about myself. Yeah. Because I think it could mean more to you and a lot more people. A lot more people, yeah.
You know, another one of these songs could mean to me. But kind of disguised in... you know, Matilda from Roald Dahl book of like, okay, disguise it as imagine Matilda as like a grown up.
I mean, I played it to, you know, a couple of friends and stuff and like. all of them cried and I was kind of like, okay, I think this is like something to pay attention to. Have you played it to the person it's about?
I haven't. Do they know it's about them? No.
Wow. Will you ever reveal it? Or will they know instinctively?
I think they'll probably know. It's hard with that because it's kind of like, it's a weird one because in that same sense, like the line of like, it's none of my business, but it's just been on my mind. It's kind of like, we talked about this like last time.
We sat down and you have a couple of people in your life who you've lost to like suicide and stuff and it's always hard to not go like, I wish I'd reached out to them and I wish I'd done this. And it's really difficult not to do that even if you're not that close to them. You know, with something like this, it's kind of like, you know, I wanna... Give you something about like I want to support you in some way, but it's not necessarily my place to make it about me because it's not my experience and sometimes it's just about listening. I hope that's what it did in like if nothing else that it just says like I was listening to you.
There was a moment on Friday, first Friday Coachella when you played Boyfriends and it's I can think of maybe three, four... Certainly less than half a dozen times in my life when I've been in a crowd of that many people and Everyone is quiet. I know you were performing and singing and that's a complex song to sing because it's harmonies pretty much all the way through and you all have to be in the pocket and you're really naked up at the front of that stage, you know?
But did you, were you able to absorb the silence? I mean, I couldn't hear anything the whole time, so it was really hard to tell that people were quiet. We were quiet.
It was definitely the first thing that Tom said to me after the show. Dude, it was like Radiohead at Glastonbury playing exit music. It was that quiet.
Everything just sucked the noise out of the field. And for good reason. I mean, if you saw the Angel Olsen did a little sort of nod and a cover on TikTok the other day of it and called it a keeper, called it a great song.
And it is a great song. Thank you. Now it's a...
From a male perspective, it's a very knowing song and it's a very self-aware song. You have to have some self-awareness to write from that perspective. Yeah, for sure.
Boyfriends was written right at the end of Fine Line. So, you know, I'd finished the album and we touched on this last time. There was like an extra week where I went in to write some stuff and wrote Adore You and Lights Up and Treat People With Kindness and stuff.
And we were recording Lights Up. And it was very fast. It was like, OK, we have a super rough demo.
Let's get singers in and do it. And it kind of came together really quickly. And then at the end of that session, everyone left. started writing Boyfriends and it almost felt like, okay, there's a version where we get this ready to put on this album and I think there was just something about it that felt like it's gonna have its time so like let's not rush to get it done and we did so many versions of it, you know, it was like vocal and acoustic and then vocal and this with that.
Jump track. You know, electric guitar and then this and then... than that. Which is crazy to me because I cannot actually, and people say that to me and I can immediately put it into a different arrangement, I cannot hear that song in any other way.
Yeah, and we did, you know, we did like, did the harmonies on everything and then took them out for chunks and put them in for chunks and all the stuff and then at the end it was like, okay, we need like, there's something that it has to be, to be what it should be and Ben Harry played on it. Yeah, he did. And, you know, it kind of just, it's, it's him.
No one plays like him either. hands playing that guitar. God, you can so hear that as well. It's the craziest thing. Style is a funny thing, isn't it?
And he has it. And it's like the guitar that he wrote his first three albums on. And he gifted it to us.
So, another lonely day. yeah was written on that guitar i believe so yeah wow and he'd gifted it to his daughter and had to ask for it back to borrow to play it on the thing but didn't tell her what it was for so i believe now will be her finding out that he played so thank you for letting us borrow it but it was kind of uh yeah it was just such like a singular moment i think for all of us like tom tyler mitch we're such big fans of him as well and it just felt like a really special moment. Well you couldn't have got a better player to contribute to a song that speaks to that subject either.
Ben Harry has been an advocate, you know, and a beautiful and again another emotionally intelligent writer who writes from that kind of POV. Many times. So he would have felt the subject matter of that, I'd imagine.
I think you know writing it, it was really easy to be like, okay we should like pitch this maybe. But at some point you go like, alright we'll pitch it and let some... one sing it and then it was kind of like really I mean no it was never gonna be oh no pitched but it's kind of like no one else could sing that it's so much except Angel Olsen amazing version by the way I think for me like writing it I felt like you tend to try not to like get ahead of yourself when you write something obviously but I think there was something in it where I felt like okay when I'm 50 and And if I'm playing a show, maybe there's someone who heard it for the first time when they were like 15, and this is probably the song that they came to see.
Because I'm learning so much by saying it, and I'm not ever going to pretend to know what someone's experience is, but like I... Hear you in some way and like definitely some self-awareness has there and We're all flawed, you know, and I think Pretending that we're not it's like I just don't get it really anymore and It's a funny thing to like want everything to be so perfect but also be like you're 100% we're all like yeah Yeah, we're a flawed species. I think like the boyfriends thing I think the good part about it is that it is everything it's both acknowledging my own behavior, it's looking at behavior that I've witnessed, it's looking at, you know, I grew up with a sister, so it's like watching her date people and watching friends date people and, you know, like people don't treat each other very nicely sometimes. And I mean, it turned out about boyfriends because I started playing it and then sang boyfriends and then was kind of like, I can't. kind of like that, go from here and then just kind of kept going.
Yeah. And it was kind of one of those, like it was one of those like really quick, like just say what you think of Boyfriends and you're like. You know, after that song, the album takes a turn and this is the final kind of suite of songs, which I love because it's like both kind of sweet.
It's like S-U-I-T-E, but it's also S-W-E-E-T. It starts getting really light and happy and joyous. And I feel like when we get to cinema. It's like, wow, here we go. You seem very happy in that moment of the album.
What's cinema about? Cinema's about, like, I think I just wanted to, you know, make something that felt really fun, honestly. And, I mean, I have the kind of note of writing it, and it was very, I was like on a treadmill. And it's very just like... Me kind of going...
You know, and I feel like a very fun one for me because I used to, you know, tend to do so much writing in the studio and it was very much like, you know, I did this bit here... had like the melody and then I went home and added a little bit and then kind of left it and then added a little bit more and kind of left it and then went into the studio and kind of put it together and that kind of was the biggest thing for me across the album was like we used to book a studio and be like, okay, we're in for two months. Grind it out. Grind it out. And it felt like, you know, I would always feel like, well, we've booked the studio, so we should use it.
And some days you don't have it and you don't want to be there. And eventually you've been in the studio so long, the only thing you're trying to write about is nothing because you haven't done anything. And I think this album... That also probably comes from that work ethic that you had growing up in the band, too, where it's like, you're on the clock. Like, how dare you stop?
Yeah. You're on the clock. You get to do this. Like, how could you?
And mix that with some Impostor Syndrome and it's like a cocktail of just like... But this album was the first time that we worked for a couple of weeks and then everyone went and lived their lives. Beautiful. And then we came back. back together.
Well you said that in the last conversation where you talked about like man when you go and do create sometimes you actually forsake the ability to live a life which will inspire the creativity in the first place and I wondered when you said that, I remember exactly how I felt when I left that conversation. conversation thinking a couple of things always go through my head after conversations i'm ever thinking like i wonder i wonder if and when he'll crack that i think you just then you're living and everyone gets re-energized yeah and there is also you know tom lives in la i live in london tyler lives in nashville there is something that happens when we all get back together in a room because we can't do it all the time that is so exciting and it's like there's always two or three songs that come out that just go like yeah because what have you done what what have you got what's in the tank? Everyone's been writing, everyone's been making sounds and everyone's been doing stuff and you bring it all back together and it's like we're back together let's you know. So cinema and daydreaming and satellite and that kind of group of songs. Yeah.
Sessions three slash four. Yeah well because we kind of had these moments of out and it was a lot I did a lot more writing kind of on my own taking stuff in I used to to kind of go in with nothing and then we would work and make stuff. Going in like six or seven times instead of two or three chunks gave you six or seven opportunities for those first few songs.
So the whole album is made up of like... We got together here and we made these two songs straight away. And then we got together here and we made these three songs straight away in the first two days.
And then we worked on them and maybe wrote a couple of others. And then everyone left for a month and then we got back together. and blurted out these things. And it's like, that is the album to me. I feel like the album kind of goes in the timeline.
I know there's moments where As It Was came toward the end and Boyfriends was way back there. And I think maybe Little Freak was even way further back than that. Yeah. But those last songs... then dude, you know me, I ain't going there.
But to me it just feels like you're happy. Yeah, I mean, love of my life. I'd always wanted to write a song about home and loving England and all of that kind of stuff.
And it's always kind of hard to do that without being like, you know, went to the chippy and I did this thing. And to me, love of my life is definitely... was kind of the most terrifying song for a long time because it's so bare.
It's kind of just so sparse. Yeah, it's a performance record. But also it felt like so perfect closer. We moved into a friend's house. and made the record very much in a room.
So in Shangri-La, we didn't use the control room. We all moved everything into the one room. Then we went back to England and we were all in real world.
That's one room. We went Back to LA, we were all in one room, and then we moved into this house. And I said, I know you're away, do you mind if I use the house to do some writing and stuff?
And they were like, cool. No problem. Thought we'd maybe come with her.
Why did you choose that house though? I'd spent some time there and I knew it was really peaceful. And I wanted to just be away from everything and be able to go outside.
And I've always enjoyed doing that. I don't love like distractions of doing it. It's like a 360 visceral experience of like, you know, you have an idea and you can tell everyone at breakfast instead of like, oh, wait till four o'clock when we're in the studio or something like that.
You know. you're able to go through the night and then just sleep. And all of the things that make it kind of, everyone cares about it as much as you do.
And I think that's something that's tough to achieve. You know, we made it in this room and Tyler was playing piano and we did like, baby you're the love of my life, ooh. The room was kind of below the room I was sleeping in and I just heard it going round and round for so long. And I was like, I really don't know.
what this is and it was kind of one of those where Tom and Tyler were like we really like it trust us like let's finish it and yeah I love it and I think it's like you know it kind of feels like a perfect like I'll probably end the show with it and stuff You know, in the spirit of what Harry's House is about, I think it started as an idea that I wanted to... It was very kind of literal and it was very on the nose. I wanted to make like an acoustic EP or something and make it all in my house and make it really intimate.
It was named after Hasano. He had an album in the 70s called Hasano House. I kind of spent that little chunk in Japan and stuff and I heard that record and I was like I love that and it was his first record out of the orchestra and stuff and I Was kind of like I'd be really fun to make it out called Harry's House and thought about it kind of being this smaller thing and then it was kind of back to that thing of like you know maybe that's an album I'll make in four years or five years or whatever and as I started making the album I realized it wasn't about the kind of geographical location as much more of an internal thing like when I took that title put it to the songs we were making it felt like it took on this whole new meaning and it was about okay like imagine it's a day in my house like what do i go through a day in my mind what do i go through in my house i'm playing fun music i'm playing sad music i'm playing this i'm playing i have doubts i have yeah all the stuff like joy pain kind of like a day in the life yeah yeah you know i like all of that stuff and um i think while it obviously is a lot more like electronic in a lot of places than anything I've made, it's also so much more intimate to me.
Totally. And so much more intimately made. It doesn't feel like an electronic record to me. No. It's a modern pop record, but man, the songs, if you broke them out, every one of them, even Sushi Restaurant you could play around with.
And I think in the same thing, kind of back to what we said at the beginning of you don't have to worry about me, it was like I'm going to play in my house and you can come visit 100%. I'm not going to. I'm not, you know, it's like I'm making this because it's what I want to listen to.
And, you know, this is like my favorite album at the moment. And I love it so much. And it was also made so much more intimately than anything. And because of the circumstances and all the things, everything was played by like a very small number of people. It's crazy.
It's you and Tyler and Tom and a few great backing singers and Ben and a bit of John Mayer. Yeah. Yeah. a little bit of Dev Hines and a couple of other writers, but it's super low-key.
You know, so to me, like, it's everything. It's everything that I've wanted to make, really, in, like, a lot of ways. So you're 28 right now. Yes. And you were...
At the time of this interview, I was 28. Yes. I also will be when it comes out. So is life moving fast? Is life going fast or is life going slow? How does life feel to you in terms of pace at this point in your life?
I think I'm embracing both very much. I think in moment to moment, I feel like I'm embracing both. I feel like I'm always working at being more present. I feel like I've got a lot better at it.
I feel like I'm able to celebrate the moments that should be celebrated. I don't feel so relieved, kind of like, that could have been really bad. I'm like, this is really good, and that is really fun.
Because I don't feel like the people around me the friends around me kind of, I don't feel like their love is conditional. And it's like unbelievably relaxing in a way that I'm sure you know, you have, you know, a family and stuff. And I think like there's a lot of things that used to feel like, okay, there's a part of your life, then there's a hard stop, and then there's a next part of your life. And things that used to feel so unbelievably foreign to me, so terrifying. Okay.
feel like I'm not 19 anymore. So, you know, I'm less terrified of them and realizing that. It's just one thing and it's not like chapter over, bye bye, now, you know.
And trying to just like appreciate the moments and the time and I think... I definitely found a place in the pandemic where I was like, okay, I'm really lucky that I get to be with friends right now and all of that stuff. And I feel like, okay, I used to feel really... guilty for trying to kind of protect the space around me and being like defensive of it and I felt like I was so concerned with people liking me that I would kind of give up too much space around me that would affect me negatively and I think now I feel okay kind of putting boundaries up and I'm okay now I think feeling like If I'm not spending time with people that I love and people who love me, I'd rather be on my own.
Like I don't really have... That need to be kind of just like around people who don't like positively affect each other. I definitely had a really big moment I think when, like when Bill Eilish kind of first blew up. And I think being in the band I'd always felt like We were like really young, we were just really young and it was like fun and exciting because we were young.
And I had a moment seeing her do this at such a young age where I felt like I'm not that young anymore. And for a while it was like how do you like play that game of like remaining exciting? And I just had a moment where I felt like okay we're not the same thing. And... In the same vein of like you're not always gonna be the kind of young thing I was like okay I would like to really like think about who I would like to be as a musician.
was going to be like, what does maturity mean to you when you've always been this kind of Prince Charming of pop music? And it's like, how do we keep you in this space? And I don't think anyone wants to, but I wanted to.
And I'm so glad you're going here, because that was going to be how I was going to finish. What does it feel like? Well, I think we've ran into each other a couple of times, but I'm kind of from afar incredibly thankful to her, because I feel like. She felt like she represented something to me that, I don't know, it felt like, came in in a way that was like, you're not, like don't worry about being this thing, ever.
Because, you know, she's like a lot younger than me and... There's no point in me going like, okay, how do I get back in? How do I like get back to like this exciting thing? She sort of broke the spell is what you're saying. Yes, she totally broke the spell for me in a way that I'm like very grateful for.
That, you know. This may be weird because I've never told her that, but for me it just let me go like this is so unbelievably liberating to go, I just want to make good music. That's it. That's what I want to do.
And everything else is like what it will be. And that's kind of it.