Oh Much of the world, Bunkano, believes that Indonesia is now very closely aligned with China. Is it true? True in the sense of the word that Indonesia is very much aligned with all progressive forces in the world.
Indonesia is very much aligned with the new emerging forces. It is not only with China, but with any country, any nation, with progressive ideas, with progressive policy. But look here.
When we made our Declaration of Independence, Proclamation of Independence in August 1945, I said in my 17th of August speech last, that about that time also, About that time also, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea made also the declaration of independence. That's why I said in my speech that Texas, Jakarta, Phnom Penh, Hanoi, Beijing, Pyongyang, I... Very logical. May I ask you a rather difficult question?
How do you reconcile your being so opposed to imperialism and yet align yourself with a country which has always had imperialist designs in Asia and many people think still does? Do you think they still do? China. Do you think they might become an imperialist nation again?
No. I had serious talks about this with Mao Zedong, with Zhou Enlai, with Chen Yi, with Zhu Te, with Liu Xiaoqi, all the responsible leaders of China. They all laughed about this.
I mean, people... They say that we Chinese are imperialists. We are not.
And I'm sure they are not imperialists. They are not imperialists. You know, a few years ago, we had here also a Chinese problem.
And we have tackled this problem nicely. It was not because China was... Imperialist? Of this imperialist? No.
You know that if then Chen Ji came here, I mean, I mean, when we were tackling this Chinese problem in Indonesia, Chen Ji came here and he said, President Soekarno, punish them if they are... doing things against the interests of your nation and your country. Punish them. So this is a proof that, anyhow, that Changi is not imperialist. And that China is not imperialist.
Do you think that this has any possibility of happening, that there might be a clash at some point between the interests of China and the interests of Indonesia? No, no, no. China is solving its own problems, we are solving our own problems.
And so long as we don't intervene, subvert each other, everything is alright. You have now friendly relations also with many Western countries, don't you? Yes, yes, yes. Which ones? No, with the Netherlands.
No, with France. With Italy. Those are Western countries. Yes.
Even we had very... Very nice talks and relations with, for example, President De Gaulle. It's now sometimes very much opposed against your policy, I mean American policy. I'll go on to another if I may. You have very fervently in many of your speeches prayed for world peace, yet Indonesia is the only nation to have withdrawn from the United Nations.
Coincidentally, this is the year of the 20th anniversary of Indonesia's independence and also the 20th anniversary of the formation of the United Nations. Would you tell us if perhaps if you can if this was an impulsive move? Impulsive, Ms. Beryl?
How can you speak about impulsive? It was already in 1960 that I made that speech to the United Nations in New York. And then in that speech I elaborated already about... the urgent necessity to reorganize the United Nations, because the United Nations of today are not picturing the world constellation of today. The United Nations of today is just a picture of the constellation of the world in 1945. And after 1945 so many changes have taken place.
So many new Asian states have been established. So many new African states have been established. What would your suggestions be for the most important changes which you have suggested in the past for the changing or amending of the United Nations Charter's organisation?
In the first place, that the United Nations now are a real reflection of the world life of today. ...45's Constellation. Today, 60. I uttered it already, 60. I'm not 60, 65. Even more now. Is this regarding the Security Council?
Security Council, United Nations Charter, etc., etc., etc., etc. Do you think that the Security Council should be different and how? Don't put me into details. Anyhow, do you understand that the Security Council is not satisfactory to us?
And that the whole organization of the United Nations is also not satisfactory to us? Should it happen that there be any revisions in the United Nations Charter? Is it at all possible that Indonesia may rejoin the United Nations?
Yes, but not the contrary. We shall never come back to the United Nations before reorganization of the United Nations.