foreign to the being known podcast with my friend Dr Kurt Thompson my friend pepper Sweeney we are here to discover and explore what it means to be truly known hey Kirk pep man great to see you again it's been a while since we've recorded in between our last session and this second of this series but man it's just so good we were talking just now because we were getting ready for this how lovely it is to be able to have access through Zoom to connect with each other on a regular basis just really really great you know some sometime what we should do is just show up with no agenda and hit record and let that be our podcast yeah I mean oh my gosh we would have we would have so much fun at Amy's expense I mean I think we should do that like I think we should have think about having an episode every series in which which is just it's just you know it is um I think it does sort of show an element of our relationship that you don't fully see in the podcast right um you know the fact that we don't really like each other that much we put on this face here once we start recording this part of it oh is that not what we're doing I'm sorry Oh I thought that's what we were doing all this time darn it wrong again [Laughter] there is part of me that the other things that might be a good idea it's just you know sometimes those things get um I mean that's kind of our personal time too in our private time that I think is important for us to have but yeah you know it's worth exploring so today we are uh in episode two of the season of the being known podcast and uh today's episode is entitled the word of God the presence of wisdom and the wisdom of presence which with a subtitle of Consciousness yeah explain that to a skirt so this series we're talking about the beauty of wisdom that's our overarching theme and we are using the what our listeners have maybe become familiar with if you're new to the podcast we talk about in in the realm of interpersonal neurobiology we talk about these nine domains of how the mind functions and we're using that template we're using those nine domains as a template uh to kind of be our guide as we talk about wisdom but all that is sitting on top of a Biblical narrative if that's that's our ultimate source of what we mean to be people of wisdom and how does that get reflected in the way our brains work how does it get reflected in our relationships what does it mean what is it what does life look like when we're not being wise how does that affect things because I think like we said in our first episode in our introductory episode that you know we I don't think we know people who would wake up and say no I want to be more foolish by the end of the day I think we are people who want to be wise and so we also talked in our introductory remark about uh which we'll talk a little bit about here just a moment this this notion that we're gonna not just use the nine domains of integration as a template but we're also using the biblical narrative in the Bible as it is meant to be approached the Bible as it is meant to be approached on its own terms and um we'll come back to that in just a moment as well um but we would we would say that uh um wisdom when we talk about uh that um wisdom is something that in the scriptures talk about wisdom being at the beginning right at the beginning when when the world was being formed uh which we'll talk about it's important to know that wisdom does not isn't just something that just shows up we just it's not self-evident it is um it is it's it's a product that that when we talk about the scriptures and wisdom that wisdom came at a particular time in a particular people a particular experience it's not just self-evident I don't just go out my front porch and their wisdom is and I recognize it it is a thing that we have to acquire it is a thing that we have to work at achieving at becoming and one of the ways that we are beginning to talk about it today this in this in this episode is this notion of consciousness that if I'm going to be conscious and by conscious I don't just mean that I'm awake but that I am actually alert and I'm attuned to things I'm paying attention to more than just the fact that I'm eating my meal I'm actually paying attention to how the food tastes I'm not just having a conversation with you I'm actually paying attention to the conversation that we're having while we have it we are present to it I'm attuning to this and we would say that wisdom for us begins in the way that it gets reflected even in the scriptures that when you read the first two verses of the first page of the Bible we see that we're beginning before the beginning because the spirit of God we find in the when we say before the beginning there was there was this Spirit of wisdom and that was with God for the creation and then it shows up and that in that verse it says that the spirit of God hovered over the deep in the chaos it was present and what's interesting about this when it comes to the Jewish the Hebrew notion of creation it's unlike other cultures around it those ancient Middle Eastern cultures all those cultures had creation narratives in which the god that eventually ended up making people first had to go to war against the elements and defeat the elements but the spirit of God doesn't go to war the spirit of God hovers the spirit of God does not commit violence the spirit of God hovered over the deep and the chaos and it's present with the chaos and this is one of our one of our first tasks as as humans even developmentally that that parents when newborns come into the world parents are present with little ones we are present with them now first of all we're you know and we're present and then we respond to all the things that they need responses to but the degree to which we are present our we mindful of that is is a big deal if I'm just reacting to the child the child's upset and so I get upset at the child because the child's upset and it's inconvenient to me that's not being being very present to the child and in the same way if I'm that child to whom my parents weren't very present then I don't learn how to be present to myself and if I can't be present to myself it can't be present with others when we read the eighth chapter of proverbs we read wisdom speaks and says that wisdom was present with God before the creation and that whole notion from the very beginning is that wisdom is in that in those lines declaring the benefit of being present and present to someone with someone necessarily implies relationship that wisdom isn't just this thing that I acquire like oh I have my I I have my particular favorite coffee mug or whatever it is a thing that I experience in relationship with someone else that wisdom is it is practically it is it is Meaningful because of relationships and this leads us to this notion of the conscious domain of integration when it comes to Neuroscience when we talk about interpersonal neurobiology we talk about and we've talked about this in other episodes the significance of our being awake alert and attuned to others who are in our life with us we talk about this tripod of awareness if you will this notion that I'm going to be open observant and objective to my surroundings and so this also as it turns out reminds us of what we call the conscious domain of integration in the field of interpersonal neurobiology this notion that as human beings for us to function well we first have to be awake literally and then we have to be alert to things I actually have to be alert to walking down the stairs or the cars that are coming before I cross the street but I also have to be attuned and we are often awake and often alert we're we have a not so easy time being attuned because attuned to what am I attuned to what other people are sensing and imaging and feeling and thinking well I can't do that very well if I have not myself had the opportunity for someone to be attuned to me so as to Usher me into what that feels like what's for me into what that experience is like so that I can then go on and replicate that it's like I can't really know much about what it means to play the piano with feeling if I haven't actually had much experience being with someone watching that experiencing that I can't just like read about it having never actually experienced it and then expect myself to somehow be able to do that and relationships are not unlike that when you be awake alert and attuned and this has to do with what we have in other episodes we've talked about the tripod of awareness that if I'm going to be aware of things I first need to be open to all kinds of things that I sense and image and feel and think not just aware of things that are open to things that are outside my skin but things that I'm open to like what do I do if I find myself feeling angry well if I grew up in a house where I wasn't allowed to be angry I then I'm not even open to that so I work really hard to bury that for many many years only to find it exploding in my marriage or exploding in the workplace or I'm drinking too much or I'm looking at pornography or all kinds of things to take care of the fact that I'm not open to things that are true about me and then I want to observe those things initially if I'm going to be open to my anger the first thing I might say is oh I'm angry but I shouldn't be I'm going to condemn myself for even feeling it rather than saying oh wait a minute I want to observe that I want to be curious about that not condemning I want to be curious the more Curious I am than the more objective I can see more of the entirety of my story I understand more of who I really am so I'm going to be open observant and objective first to ourselves but I need practice with help from other people and then to the world around us I want to be able to sense image feel think and know what I want to do with my body we'll get to that body part in our next episode but this acronym of sift b s i f t b to sense image feel and think and what I want to do with my body with my behavior but I'm also want to be aware of the eight ways in which I sense the world now people have often we've talked a little bit about this before but people are oh I know the five senses the things that come to me from outside the world what I taste and see and hear and feel and all and touch but I also then notice that I have an internal a sixth sense I sense things inside my body and that Sixth Sense is followed by a seventh sense that seventh sense is I can sense that I'm sensing things I don't just sense the tabletop or my hand is I'm actually able to be aware that I am sensing it I'm actually paying attention to what I'm sensing that's a level of Sensation that we believe that most other mammals are not thinking about they're not sensing that they're sensing things and that then leads to our ability to sense what other people are sensing that eighth sense in the word I can sense that you're sad I can sense that you are upset about something I can sense that you're joyful I can sense that you're tense and so forth and so on and in this way we are being conscious of we are being aware we are being hovering like the spirit of God and then we see that and then God said those first two verses are God's spirit god making the world God Elohim making the world and then God's spirit hovers and then what does the spirit do God speaks God doesn't come with an army God doesn't come with violence God speaks and his word this speaking is an extension of his presence not something separate from it it's not like well first I'm thinking and sensing and then I'm going to speak and speaking is different it's just an extension of it and we would ask ourselves the question in what ways are our speech our words extensions of who we are wisdom is the offering of extensions of who we are I'm not it's not something separate from me it is me my words hopefully will be an extension of who I am now the problem of course especially in my own kitchen well yeah so I think I think wisdom is the extent you know it's also what you choose not to say you know right right I mean of course your words re you know hopefully are an extension of your wisdom but there's that also that um the wisdom to know when to zip it [Laughter] another t-shirt for you by the way right right exactly wisdom on the back know when to zip it dude dude we got we gotta get this marketing plan on the road we do it's time yeah so there there is that that exactly that sense but but I'm I'm only able to know when to zip it by virtue of being present to the moment and if this if this is an a like an expression of my attention to things it's also an expression of my intention God's intention is not just to be present but his intention is to give order and purpose to the chaos that is there and present in the first on the first page of the Bible and his words were few but powerful and there's another thing for us to be curious about in what way do we imagine practicing being able to be present by using a greater economy of language a greater economy of words how do we do that by even to the point where we zip it even to the point where we say nothing but how are we able to actually be wisdom by saying less you know it's it's often sad that if you are going to write something if you're given you know if you're like if you're a columnist for a paper you know you get met what 1600 words maybe 15 1600 words you don't have much space and it takes more work I think about you when you're creating lines right I mean we when you're creating a screenplay or when you're writing a sketch or when you're thinking about a program like you got all this talent and you got like I mean how are you you know how are you gonna like package that in such a way that one great example of this is comedy yeah um you know the best jokes have used the most use very much how do I say the economy of words right every word that isn't leading to the to the punch line everywhere that doesn't get you there needs to come out so so the best jokes are really you know every word is so purposeful and it's much more about what's not there than what's there right right well it's interesting like because even in the creation narrative we see I mean we we trust it's not a comedy routine but there is a sense in which God is both attuned to the broad landscape of what's before him but he is simultaneously attuned to the moment that is specifically in front of him wisdom requires us to be moving back and forth between our awareness our presence of the room and our presence of the particular person with whom we are having the conversation in the middle of the room if we're parents and we're having a conversation with one of our children at the dinner table I may be talking with Sam at the dinner table but I'm talking with Sam in front of Sarah and Alex with my wife being present and so forth and so like how do I wisely navigate being present both to the broader landscape and to that particularity I'm only able to do that if I have people who are doing the same thing for me toward me the broader landscape of my story but the particular thing that we're talking about right here and now and that's what God was doing in that space and wisdom was in the business of creating Beauty out of chaos there was this movement toward integration we would say and it took time movement that took place over the course of six days and then a seventh day he rested you know like it wasn't instantaneous why why don't the Hebrews write and say and God created the world and there it was boom just instantaneously it is a it is a recognition that wisdom is both present and it has to be acquired it's beautifully emerging but it is never complete we never get to The Benchmark we said yes now I am wise yeah and so it's such a long a long process to even get to the point where you're you you're you're approaching wisdom right oh gosh yeah and I I don't want to jump ahead but I know we're going to be talking about um some of Mako fujimar's art and you know he talks about this slow Beauty you know because the process that he uh that he does starts with crushing minerals and and then you do it in layers and it takes forever for that to dry and you're you know he talks about literally a lot of his art is sitting around waiting for paint to dry you know it's this slow slow process until he can reach that beauty right yeah yeah right and you know I think um as as we are you know we are in a time and space pep where Everything feels so urgent there's a lot that feels urgent and you know I think about the earth and the list is endless both in our personal lives and in the larger cultural landscape we look around no matter where we are in in the spectrum of you know in in in the West in the U.S in particular there's an urgency and with greater urgency there is this greater felt sense of I need to be wise now I need to have the whole kit and caboodle all of it like the whole notion of you know waiting for paint to dry right like it only makes me feel more urgent it only makes me feel more anxious yeah yeah and this is where it's really important for us to have another person in our life who can sit with our urgency look Us in the eye and say pep I'm not worried about you I just I just want you to know I just I love you where you are right now we're good you're good we're good and wisdom begins again it begins before the creation of the world it begins with this presence of being with God and God's trinitarian celebratory relational you know love offering relationship he's not just like in he's not just present with us like the chair is present with us in the room I like my chair my chair has never offered me personally much doesn't come out and say oh Kurt like I'm so glad for you to sit with me oh I mean I I I still okay I still remember that fateful night of walking down the hotel hallway with you with me trying to continue There was right right and I think like I'm like I'm trying to stay upright trying to stay upright from laughter from you know from killing over and I think there there was the part of me that is thinking to myself is pepper gonna think I'm a whack job because I'm not just walking down the hallway Ah that's funny like no I could barely stand up I don't think like he's gonna think there's something like this dude takes care of patience like like how do like how why do people pay him money like this is ridiculous and so at the same time that I'm laughing I'm also just aware of your being willing to be present with what to me felt like a certain degree of ridiculousness on my part yeah like you're laughing at me oh yeah right like right now I'm laughing with you like I was that night truly and I you know there's this beautiful thing that that you know um so God was in relationship as he hovered over the chaos um and the wisdom comes out of relationship as as you know you're talking about here and this time that we're feeling everything so urgent you know there's never I mean you know people probably over the years have always said this but to me there's never been a time that needs wisdom more than now or at least that feeling and so so the work that we need to do to be present with others to be on our journey towards wisdom in order to face the chaos you know that we're all facing you know uh I should speak for myself here that that I face every day yeah you know right um is is comes back to to starts with being known and being in relationships yeah yeah right on right on well you know it's it's striking them because when we talk about this notion of presence uh you know in God's creative act we then get to this what we would call this culminating and crowning act that we read about in Genesis 1 26 when God decides that he is going to create an image of his of himself it's going to be his word at first it's his word is an extension let there be light let the land separate from the sea that word is an extension and now as it turns out we become his word on the planet we become his image bearers and we'll and and then and we'll we'll talk in our next in our next episode about what that means to be his image bearers but in this sense in Genesis 1 26 let us create mankind let us create humankind in our image and then let them Steward the Earth let them be our Representatives that's what he's really saying let let us let us let us be on the earth and let them be us on the Earth but then be for the Earth Who We Are and so then we see that wisdom begets wisdom in embodied fashion it starts it's not it's not just this abstract thing and we all and because it's relational let us make mankind humankind in our image in our image we recognize that this is primarily relational that wisdom is a relational dynamism it is not just this static thing that I acquire like gold or silver or platinum or money or houses or things it's a thing that I that I acquire it is a thing that is happening always happening between me and someone else in relationship and what that means is that when we are when I'm if we if any of us are pursuing hard after wisdom like that eighth chapter of proverbs uh like invites us to do foreign we open the door for others to pursue wisdom as well we become that portal through which others can walk into places of wisdom now of course you know we live in the real world and that means that we have trauma and shame that disrupts this whole process and so it makes it really difficult for us to be present to others because I'm prone to live protectively in either the past or the future right I'm I'm like I have this experiences from the past that shape my anticipation of the future I was talking to another friend recently and I said like I I I I wasn't aware that I was doing this developmentally growing up but I became aware like oh my gosh I like what I have is a very thick almost velvet covering on the outside of me this is I think what I was as a kid growing up and as a young adult that I think was I think for the most part you know people liked me and I I I I love being with people and so forth but that velvet covered a fairly resilient titanium you know inner uh set of armor and there was always then this sense right I love the notion of wisdom I love the notion of connection and relationship and as soon as somebody got too close got close enough to the armor then I started to worry that this is going to start to feel too much like my mom or my dad or some combination they're in where I'm gonna get consumed in this relationship I'm not I'm like some something is not now it's not like I knew this but this is kind of how I would behave and so trauma does this to us and so this means that all the more reason for us to recall that for us to acquire wisdom and to be present we have to address that trauma and shame this is where we get back to um one of the things that we talked about in the opening episode is this idea of literature and there's a couple extra things that I'm adding to it we we talked about these this this literature of the scriptures that it is god well what what the folks at the Bible project like to talk about kudos to them this notion that it's God to human grief it's this combination which as it turns out is how we would say we are right we are God's fingerprints we are his image on there we are to be his image to the Earth and to each other we are to reflect him to each other my trauma makes it hard for me to do that so it's it's a god human project and so to be present I want to be aware that like I'm not just me like I am I'm an image Bearer and as my friend Andy Crouch likes to say you know he he talks about how when he was in Chicago on O'Hare airport once he he's going for a long walk in the airport in between flights and he just started to say yes he would pass people he would say image Bearer image Bearer image Bearer and when we start to pay attention that this is a god human Enterprise if we are present to that it changes our awareness of things that it is that the text that the scriptures are God human they are ancient they're old we have old parts of our stories that have formed who we are we have to be present to that we have to be present to what it was like growing up in our particular house that it's Jewish it wasn't Sumerian it wasn't Egyptian it was a particular story that we have that it is meditative that the scriptures are meditative we go over them and over them and over them and our stories are ones that are constantly being cultivated toward wisdom and it's literature it's artistic we are works of art this is and in this sense this acquisition and becoming becoming wisdom is an artistic Endeavor which we've talked about here this notion of being known how wisdom is acquired and is UNF unveiled as a piece of artwork deeply takes place in the course of the process of being known by others which is again I just get back to like this how grateful I am for you and me and for Amy and for how this relationship uh makes that possible makes it possible I think that you know this idea of you know we all of us are works of art um if we and really internalize that and and accept that as truth that's kind of a game changer yeah you know yeah [Music] right we would start treating ourselves and others a lot differently if we could really accept that as reality right well you know it's interesting uh when you hear artists themselves talk about this it's uh it's not an uncommon thing to uh or at least I've I've heard artists often talk about how challenging it is for them at times to um feel like they can take themselves seriously because they're not really sure that their art is good enough or you know am I am I able to call myself an artist am I do I have to you know be somebody who sells pieces for you know thousands of dollars before I can be validated or is it am I good enough all those kinds of questions and these are and these are for people who like actually are artists you will hear them talk about you know the self-doubt yeah yeah was that imposter syndrome so many of us no matter if you're an artist or not I mean that's so common right but I mean there's there's a sense in which like I I would think like even as an actor like how many people like in your profession like you you you're paid to be other people other than who you are and like you weren't like well am I am I really good enough to do this um you know like I'm so I'm thinking I'm thinking like what was going through your mind in that moment when Burt Reynolds comes and finds you and says hey yeah you want to turn around and say who you who are you talking to you know and and you know and in time you know someone like you say that it's a it's a a real artist that has these same feelings that's accomplished and everyone of course would say oh my you're so talented you know I I think that they they get to a place where you know the ones that I've talked to kind of you know they still have those self-doubts and those things am I really am you know am I an imposterous you know but then they they you kind of Shake It Off occasionally and say well stop it but I think it is a constant battle for people yeah well and I and again I think therein we would say what's really necessary is for us to have as much practice as possible being the presence of others yep by whom we're being known yeah so just just quickly when you said earlier you said uh you were given an example of of this and you were saying things about about how about me and about it was very it was just positive like I can just tell you that that I felt that I mean I good I'm glad it changed something in the room for me yeah yeah you know it just yeah yeah yeah right on right on well and I I mean for it too I wanted to because I want to be like I want to be more connected to you at the end of this recording than I was 40 minutes ago I just yeah um uh I'm just going to talk about an artistic piece and then we'll and then an application real quick um you know we mentioned the work of Mako fujimura here A friend of ours um whose work has been highly influential for for me and for for many people and in both his artistic work but also his he's got a couple of books out most recently art and Faith uh that we would commend and one of the things that he has to be in his work of nyonga this this this art form this Japanese art form that you referred to is that he has to simply be present to the process and when you think about all that pulverization all that crushing all the mixing all then very you know you can't do it haphazardly you can even though when at first you look at his paintings and you're like you know and so I don't know what that is is it a horse is it it looks you know it's like Jackson Pollock right I mean like what was that the guy just like spinning around with a bunch of you know whatever paint flying off but I think this is an example of how we are able to practice being present being present with one of his pieces for instance like the tears of Christ if you were if our audience were to look up on the Internet the tears of Christ you come to find that that being present with that peace evokes things within us that we otherwise may not be able to um to access and this is the first step to becoming people of wisdom it is being present it is being conscious being awake alert and attuned such that I can then take the next step which we're going to be talking about in our next episode of being awake alert and attuned to what's happening in my body and how does my body then become an expression of these things that I long to be an expression of namely wisdom I want to be living breathing pulsating wisdom in my world it feels so desperate in where things feel so urgent so one of the applications that we would invite you to consider doing is just this number one just practice a tuning once again to these we have This Acronym sift B what I sense image feel think and how I'm going to behave we can practice that a couple times a day just pause and be curious about what am I sensing at this moment again the moment itself is less important than that I'm practicing being attuned to that you can also practice being attuned to the eight senses that we've listed before and notice what ways you are or are not being with whomever you're considering notice am I with and present with the people that are sitting at my dinner table my with the people that I'm at work with am I with my students I with my employees my employer my friends my neighbors my with this person my just listening to the convert am I just in a conversation at Starbucks with my friend or I'm actually with my friend hovering and curious not at the ready to fix their problems but I'm going to be God's representative I'm going to be like God like God was on the first page of the Bible so those are some things for us to think about that's great you know I would add to that the the idea of being with and being present and not just uh thinking can I solve this person's problems but actually you know not thinking about your own problems and not even really being present at all which I have been guilty of at times where right um yeah Thank you Kirk this has been uh really time well spent I appreciate you so much right back at you brother and I feel wiser every time you're together take that as you will okay all right until next time Kurt if you are watching on YouTube Amy's going to be joining us here in just a couple of seconds so stay tuned for that right on [Music] hey guys hey aim hey guys hey I'm gonna hey guys I'm gonna hey guys I'm gonna I'm gonna fetch my airpod that fell out of my ears there we go there's so much going on over here like they started construction somewhere about two minutes ago and then there were like something's really happening because there were Sirens going on I'm like okay everybody we're recording so foreign like the Hub the kind of hovering I'm thinking about with that kind of chaos is just like step outside your door and say shut up that's wisdom right there yeah that's right you know it's brevity with words it is it is economy of words right right to the point yeah yeah not very funny but oh my gosh ah um okay I have a couple of thoughts let's hear him so so Kurt would like you opened up with this about wisdom is that too distracting was actually talking okay because that's the only thing I mean you can't hear the construction no oh my gosh okay good wow well I think I think here's here's the thing here's the thing God wasn't worried about the chaos God wasn't at war with chaos God was just present and I think your presence is like this is what happens when Amy steps into the chaos it's just like people around her just don't we don't even notice and hear the riffra and I mean like you're you are like God's rep you're welcome so this idea that wisdom is we need to acquire it right we don't get out of bed and like oh there's wisdom with my coffee like yeah and what struck me was not only do we need to but but the amazing thing is we can't like we have agency over that yeah and like pep when you said you know we're all work we're all works of art and if we like were to see each other as a work of art I had to see ourselves as a work of art and then I thought we are varying degrees of dryness like sometimes there's this part is really dry but then this part is not so dry it's newly put on the page yeah that's good right and being okay in in that which is really hard right right if you're the painting yeah and we are right yeah we are the painting and it's like okay I wish that was really dry and it is right right um no I just want to say I just haven't I just haven't thought about that I haven't I haven't just paused long enough to consider what it's like to be the painting where the different parts of me are unfinished and I become urgently impatient with them not being more of what I want them to be and it is going to dry if we're doing the work it's going to dry so it's but if you're if you're talking about the kind of work um and I can you you pronounce the Japanese art oh nyonga the hunger yeah it's going to dry but then it needs to require another layer and that needs to require another layer and then you wait for that one to dry and then it needs another layer and it just goes on forever yeah yeah and then the same patients and sometimes tolerance that other people like now are going to be like huh that's pretty wet paint right there that you're showing me like they also have wet right and yeah yeah so my impatience extends to them too yeah yeah for sure yeah I'm going to see people differently as I'm watching these today yeah they're not quite finished foreign because like in season three we talked about the domains of integration and this week has been a week for me like there's been some hard conversations and I realized that pretty quickly I go to threat I go I I take things as a threat situations is a threat and then I I respond in a different way like I am I think my security is threatened and and the the cool thing is is that like now I can notice that like huh why why do I go to threat I am okay I have agency I'm going to be okay and so that's the slow work like and I think about the YouTube video where the it's the orchestra and we shared it in season three and the guy throws his drumstick and like just and now I can't remember does the the band goes on right yeah but the the person he hits doesn't right he's like he pulls It Bolts right and it's like the slow work of like in this week where I could notice I go to survival mode pretty quickly and wisdom requires being present and noticing and being curious requires being present and that actually accomplishes more than addressing things as a threat does that make sense yeah yeah but I mean I I yes and like I'm I'm just thinking that um you know a couple months ago I um as as I knew that we were thinking about new uh ideas about this this season like what would our theme be and as we approach this I it kind of a a kind of a ramp up on my um you know prayer in my asking God to even more fully uh allow me to be a person of wisdom and wouldn't you know it I mean it's like boom boom boom like within within 10 days there are like three things that are coming at me and I'm like uh uh oh oh I see how this works like I I still I I think what I when I when I pray for wisdom I think I what I what I'm doing is I'm just asking God to grant me a special dispensation where in which anytime anything emerges that is the least bit difficult I will have I will be so full of wisdom that I will know exactly what to do and I I will be I don't know you know like a trauma surgeon who never saw a trauma that he couldn't fix and just like we're just gonna do this as opposed to the notion of like well if you want to be wiser than you are it means you're going to have to face a circumstance for which you don't yet have the wisdom in order to handle it because you're going to have to acquire it by Def and the only reason the only way you're going to acquire it is if you enter into this situation about which you don't know what to do and I'm like that's not how this is supposed to work right but but but so I so I I there I am like that sense of I feel threat just like you just like you're talking about like I feel threat and ins and and what I typically would do is just like on impulse respond to the threat as opposed to being present and then oh I I now have to be present and wait and be curious like what I'm what am I going to say I have and instead of just like you know rolling out a you know a thousand page essay you know in two minutes about like what no I'm just gonna wait yeah and I don't I don't it's hard to wait but I'm but in Waiting you see oh I don't have the wisdom I'm gonna wait for that I have to think more I have to talk more with people I have to be quiet and all the things in order for me to take smaller steps and wisely learning how to navigate this and that's the only way that wisdom is acquired right and it's a slow cook but it's like if I if I don't have Clarity I don't have Clarity so uh I've got to wait or and that is right it's much easier to think okay how do I take care of this so I can it's done even if it's not the best right can I do that to move on yeah yeah it's like we've got a we've got a uh a new Dutch oven oh my braised beef in on Christmas Eve and it took days all day right and then I made um chicken curry in the instapot and it took 15 minutes they were both tasty I don't know where I'm going with this I'm trying to figure out but sometimes it is a chicken curry dish was horrible one thing I know one thing that um that I was thinking about is and Kurt you've talked often about this pendulum where you have to spend time alone and in quiet and time in relationship with people and and I feel like this is something that presence to practice presence you know um a lot of time there's there's we need both right we need to practice that presence alone and then we need to intentionally take it in with other people yeah yeah absolutely yeah it's good guys I'll give you the recipe for instant pot Curry if you have an instant pot it's really good okay yeah what about the brace what color is your Dutch oven I'm sure Kurt was wondering that too so I'm asking it is like a uh well Kurt wouldn't I know my colors aren't his thing right it is like a I would say like a greenish blue it's really it's it's like an aqua cut like aqua not Aqua no no it leans and it does the blues I think but in that but it's not just straight up green it's got some blue in it right yeah and about and is that do you put that on a burner you put it in the uh how does it work is it'll I don't I Bray I braise on the stove with it you know yes the beef but then it it's in a low temp oven like uh 300 325 something like that for hours and does the does the Dutch have but it's like a pot right yeah and does the pot itself have it's like is it ceramic yes and does it have coils in it built into it or is it no so it just so the heat did it it's just a heat comes from the burner of the of the stove yes got it yeah yeah there's probably a YouTube video I'm sure okay it's how the Dutch cooked all their victims we'll post a picture of your Dutch oven yes might bring so much to these conversations yeah it is okay all right thank you all right love you guys love you we'll see you next time [Music] this podcast is produced by Kurt Thompson pepper Sweeney and myself Amy Chella audio production and editing is by Keaton Simons video production and editing is done by Mark Gould if you'd like to connect with us you can find us on social media at being known pod if you like this podcast tell a friend if you love this podcast tell everyone you 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