Transcript for:
Frank Slootman Lecture - Amp It Up

some people can move to become much more impactful players because they never had the leadership they never had the motivation never had the inspiration be different show up make this day a different day and all the other days that are just a gray zone of zero impact not moving any dials I use these Expressions drivers versus passengers I mean obviously they're exaggerated stereotypes but they exist Frank great to have you here on the learning leader show welcome yeah thanks Ryan good to be uh with you I was fascinated to learn about your upbringing I read a story about you as a teenager in the Netherlands harvesting tulip bulbs and walking behind a tractor 10 hours a day as well as cleaning Factory toilets where your dad worked I have to believe that some of that experience impacted you as an amp It Up Style leader can you take me back to that time when you were a teenager doing some of that grinding manual labor and how that impacted you as a leader yeah you know I I didn't think much of it uh at the time because it wasn't uh you know unusual but you know you get that visceral uh sense and experience that like wow I can't imagine what this would be like if I had to do this for the rest of my life right so it puts it puts rocket fuel in your tank and it it builds just ambition like you know I'm not going to be here long you know type of a thing so I I think it's uh it's very good to do manual labor because you don't know what you're talking about until you're actually doing it for weeks on end and uh especially the the whole tulip episode which I did several Summers uh you know in a row and under the beating song walking behind a tractor it is mind-numbing uh but that's just how it you know how these how these Farms operate and what they do and the type of Labor they need and uh it's it's find appreciation especially at that age when you're like 16 17 years old and you're you're very impressionable and those Impressions will uh will last you know it felt like your dad intentionally helped you have jobs like that because he wanted you to feel what it's like to do that and I feel like I read too in your book that he said see you know this is what you don't want to do when you grow up that's why I have you do it now like what type of impact did your dad have on you as a leader yeah you know he he was he was very much you know of the mindset that look you know you will have supervisors that are incredibly unreasonable and uh and by the way you positioned yourself into that place okay you can expect that now there's more to Norm there's the exceptions he can be angry and outraged and and feel slighted by that he says but you know you need to make sure that you're going to be you know operating in a place where you know you're dealing with more enlightened folks so to speak you know or you have a more reasonable relationship there and again you get a lot of appreciation for a lot of people uh have to endure out there um it's good and as I said you know when you're older in life these things don't impick you that much but when you're young I mean you're an Unwritten Leaf right and it just it's sort of it's sort of tattooed in your uh in your in your recollection and in your life experience you know in the beginning of your book amp it up you put Theodore Roosevelt's part of his man in the arena speech and I love it I was like what a great way to start a book what does being in the arena mean to you well you know this book is is a written especially for people that are doing this kind of work and uh you know I found that a lot of people that communicate with me because they read the book because I always leave my my email address in the book um they always say I feel like you're speaking directly to me okay and and I'm like I was because there's a lot of people that can't relate to the things that I write because they are not people in the arena and they'll never know what it's like you know they're the timid Souls that uh that that TR talks about right and a lot of people uh you know they sort of clutch my writings as a combat manual because they feel like there's somebody here that actually can totally relate to you know what I'm going through and and what's between my ears and the hell between my ears and all that kind of stuff and uh that's really the reason that I do it you know this is not a philosophy they're just observations I'm not trying to convince anybody but if it resonates with people you know they're living through these kind of circumstances and don't know what to do with it don't know what to make of it their board members can't help them you know they can't relate it doesn't resonate um so and that's just a small thing that you can bring um you know I I've talked in other episodes about this guy eye of contact with me is 32 years old then he got taken out of his CEO job and he was devastated I'm like dude you know you're 32. you know this is just part of your learning your upbringing this is normal and he's like really I'm like really you know when I was 32 I was absolutely nowhere so he went from being devastated to you know just taking it in stride and that's its context is really what it is you know when you look at your story Frank every once while and I've had them on the show I see a CEO who has killed it at one company all right they've grown they've done it awesome I almost never meet one who's done it at two different companies let alone three different companies so the fact that you've been able to do it and then do it again and then do it again is so rare meaning take smaller companies and grow them huge uh varying sizes but the first one being very small big second one a little bit bigger huge now it's snowflake same thing I I mean the the natural question is what happens when they inject you as the leader when they they put you as the leader that then takes them from being wherever they're at to a much much bigger place not that far and it doesn't take you that long to get there what is it that that you would say is the thing that you bring That's Unique that has just hardly ever been done before well things get amped up that's the reason why that's the title of the book I know that uh the publisher didn't like the title and I'm like well that's too bad because that is the title they didn't like it no but yeah you know you know our book publishers are right I mean they want to use verbose uh words and uh they they talk to a different audience I wasn't talking to their audience again you know I'm talking to the to the to the men and the women in the arena which is a different you know psychology and and all that uh but the input it up means you know all the dimensions that I described in there uh is really what you bring you know to the dynamic and a lot of organizations where you walk into they're lethargic they're unfocused or unmotivated they're not energized they're lethargic all these tanks right um you know I I I use the example of you know Lombardi taking over the Green Bay Packers you know how do you go from losing Seasons 11 years in a row to the next year winning sure you know the roster changed and all of that but you know he had to help he amped the hell out of that place uh very very quickly um very strong leadership injection change the expectations changed how they viewed themselves I mean all these things that are intangibles okay and the whole point about amping up is like there is an intangible and I I fully refer to it as an X Factor as well there is a sphere there that you can access and optimize that will change things enormously and immensely in a very short period of time like in your next conversation okay this is not like oh regular months of planning no your next conversation you can bring this to Bear right so it's a very you know it's just a thing that you you have to nurturing yourself how do I go about my day how do I go about my next meeting how do I leave this situation much better off than I just encountered it right it's a choice you make it's it's it's it's not it's it's simple but it's hard because you have to amp yourself up for every conversation and every encounter you can't be tired you know you can't be lethargic right I mean you got to be that that that burning source of energy that uh that gets gets injected into the equation and everybody reacts to it because everybody craves energy and excitement because that's what they want right that's what we all want yeah let's take an actual practical example so the first company's data domain it was smaller but then let's actually go to servicenow which was a little bit bigger when you took over but still nothing even close to what they are right now when you get hired as CEO what's your first I don't know if I'd say 100 days that's a lot of days because you you seem to work much faster than that but what are the first like core objectives or things you actually get done right away as you become the new leader yeah so I think things evolve differently I mean I've been at snowflake now almost exactly four years and you know the first 90 days are not comparable to what I do now okay there's a complete Evolution and and by the way CEO they don't do the same things day in and day out the situation because as a CEO you really don't have a job you adapt yourself to the circumstances and the and the nature of things what happens in the first 90 days is this this this sort of combat zone assessment of what's working what's not working uh your triage situation hook stays on the bus who gets off the bus and very very uh quickly right because the wrong people on the bus they poisoned the whole atmosphere and they're they're a liability organization in real time you know not next week next month next quarter right now so I tend to move very very quickly because I sort of want to start to undo the damage immediately right so I I have a high degree of sort of impatience with if things are wrong I I need to get after it like now um you know we put people in new positions all the time and you know playing advice to them is always ask questions listen you know for the first 90 days but I myself don't always do that I tell others but you're you're making decisions like that person's out right I remember reading a small part of uh amp it up and as actually on my long walk with my wife who's also a senior leader at a tech company and we're talking actually about a leader who works for her and maybe struggling and I said I'm getting ready to talk to Frank slootman okay this is the guy Frank just wouldn't stand for that because if you stand for mediocrity with a person you're sending a message to the rest of your team that you're okay with mediocrity and I think he would fire this guy like now and so it seems like if you realize and you and maybe use this gut intuition as well as just your experience that kind of makes helps you make decisions but how do you view that when when making leadership role these are these are not front line these are leadership positions how do you make decisions on okay who's going to stay on the bus and who's going to go well I mean in the beginning you don't know the people but what you can observe is what they're doing and not doing and how the peer group you know views that person and uh you know it doesn't even matter what what I think if the peer group you know is down on the situation and the leadership that's exhibited there it's it's in the game right um you know when I when I was a younger person you know I always thought I could coach people and help people to evolve to become somebody different than they than they were and that's naive um you know I don't go down that path anymore right I mean if you're entrenched in a role you have a leadership brand For Better or For Worse okay and that leadership brand is highly observable you know in in real time and if that doesn't exist I mean you look at a function whether it's HR or legal or sales or whatever in what area I mean you can observe is this working or is this not working right and sometimes it's it's a gray Zone and then the question becomes you know is there a doubt and if there's doubt why is there a doubt you know what and and so I don't want there to be any doubt we want to have high conviction about our leadership so either we become highly convicted or we change you know and then sometimes I give it a little bit more time to see if we can get to conviction which sometimes works right because when people get you know new people and they react and respond to that that does happen but often in other words that's the whole saying with get with the program you know tab with a message some people do some people don't um so it's the the culture starts to sort and sift on the basis of you know how the new leadership injects itself you know people sometimes think I am Uber harsh now I'm really not I think I'm actually quite reasonable but I'm I'm I'm fast you know I just want to make you know clear to Dex you know and uh and the restart and re-energize and then people also know like okay you know he's moving through everything and uh I also give people assurances that I say look you know I'm committed to having you in this role I don't leave him in doubt okay as I really send very clear messages to the positive and the negative you know but you need to have high standards don't just tolerate it because oh it's better to have somebody than nobody well you're wrong about that you better to have nobody than you know somebody who's Incorrect and wrong for the role because they become poisonous to the environment and uh and the culture so that's why you get you got to get after it because otherwise your leadership Grant is now a question people are saying oh this guy or this gal doesn't move we all know it we'll see it why don't you yeah how does it impact the overall morale of a place when they know their senior leader their CEO is going to move fast and at times get rid of people uh fire them for lack of a better phrase how have you seen that now over the course of three companies of leading them like what's it what's it do to the culture it's high anxiety in the short term there's no way around that okay and uh we have a saying in my native language you know and that's a soft healers make stinking wounds you know there is no soft healing okay you just get after it um and the the sooner that you know things become clear and correct everybody recovers some people don't I mean there's there's upheaval sure but it's necessary upheaval it's the type of evil you want because people are are not voting with their feet well good I don't have to do it for you you know um so I make no excuses for that you know by the way we're all adults here these things happen in life in business okay get used to it by the way the best way to prevent these things from happening is you know play your A-game you know then you know you've got nothing to worry about you know we talk about drivers versus passengers and people ask me how do I know I'm a driver well if you don't know you probably aren't okay so so I'll start going to work on that do you want some passengers I read this quote that you said passengers are people who don't mind simply being carried Along by the company's momentum they're often Pleasant get along with everyone attend meetings promptly generally don't stand out as troublemakers while passengers can often diagnose and articulate a problem quite well they have no investment in solving it what's your feeling on passengers versus drivers and and are there a certain amount of passengers you actually want on your team I I personally don't okay but it's it's unavoidable um you know it's just it's it's filler and by the way it's not like okay I'm either a driver or a passenger obviously you know in the middle you know you get a mixture it's it's it becomes a gray Zone which is worse okay because you know if it's very clear that somebody's a passenger the answer is is simple right but sometimes there's elements involved but if you start with where it's clear okay so first create the clarity that exists and then you deal with what what remains some people can move you know to become much more impactful players because they never had the leadership they never had the motivation never had the inspiration right be different show up you know with your A game make this day a different day and all the other days that are just a gray zone of zero impact not moving any dials just thinking about wanting to go home at night and have a cocktail you know that's that's just you know complete bull you know that's not how you show up for work um but you know I use these Expressions you know drivers versus passengers I mean obviously they're exaggerated you know stereotypes but they exist and then we all know it right I mean you saw what he almost did at Twitter I'm taking 80 of the employees what do you think they are drivers you're not going to take out drivers you know how do you feel about the word balance and I asked this you're in Hawaii it's spring break with your family you're taking time to be with me and do other work for snowflake I know what do you think of the word balance I don't have balance I have immigration and there's a difference um you know I never shut off um other than I want them to sleep obviously I am shut off but then again I get my phone going off in the middle of night also but integration just means that my my work life and my personal life day run in parallel you know from one second to the next you know I might be in this conversation that is personal or that conversation that is purely business and I like it that way because I feel like I'm always connected in the fabric um you know but you know you can't work 24 hours a day unless your name is Elon Mustang you definitely can do that so um so there's no I'm I'm definitely not a balanced person most people in in these type of roles are not balanced people that's why they're in these roles what about your what about the people who work for you who say Frank you know you're hardcore and that's awesome and I'm a driver too but I want more of that what do you say to them well um I will tell you that over time everybody will be similar in their patterns and their behaviors I mean you look on our management team we communicate 24 7 through the weekend it's not like somebody goes away on Friday and they don't respond to you until Monday you see that in Europe a lot Drives Me Crazy by the way um we're just like that's just not our style we're we're it's an unspoken expectation that you react response engaged in a certain time frame in a certain manner right uh rather than while I'm off right now I mean that that mentality doesn't exist uh in our type of companies and I think in Silicon Valley generally I don't think it really exists either you know you briefly retired after your last uh uh successful run as CEO of servicenow and I got into sailing I know and that still then became competitive because you wanted to win races and which was really uh interesting to read about I don't know much about that world but then you sat down and and they asked you to come back and run Snowflake and it to me it felt like you you may be done after the last time and maybe focus on sailing or other things that you're interested in what made you want to come back and be a CEO again after already killing it twice yeah it's a really good question and I I wouldn't have known the answer to that that question until I actually did retire because you know retirement for most people is a is an idea it's a notion it's a vision they don't really know what it is they have no idea what it is how I did I had no idea what it is I had a very romantic view and I'm like oh this is amazing I have time that money I can do whatever I want sounds great until you get there you know and then reality you know sets in um and it's very different and it also changes you know month week one is fantastic month one is fantastic even month you know year one is even fantastic and after that you start to realize this is this is all there is right um and by the way some people are are outstanding at being retired they just have the disposition for I didn't and I know lots of people in in our line of work don't have to there's all these quarterbacks in the NFL that can't retire you know how do you how the hell do you get them out of there because they can't you know they crave the action right they need it it's it's part of their psychology um so you know I um I was actually and by the way you also get this this thing called atrophy now not not so much physical atrophy but just mental because you're no longer under the gun you know your sharpens is never greater than when you're when you're most challenged and when the challenge just sort of you know abates and and goes into the background you're not as sharp I will guarantee it you only say Sharpies when you subject yourself you know to these incredibly hard confusing threatening circumstances right so the older you get the more you realize you know this is actually I'm alive okay because I'm in this Dynamic right whereas you're a lesser wide than when you're trying to play Bad gold every day you know and and and have that kind of like your world becomes very very small I mean I sometimes see people they can endlessly talk about their handicap I'm bored as hell what by conversations like that okay so do you think you'll ever retire again I I always say uh they'll rip the jersey of my back you know yeah so they'll retire me they'll tell you I know that feeling I've played played played football a little bit professionally after college and that's that was the clear signal sorry bud you're not good enough anymore and then you're I guess you're retired it's kind of gonna do the next thing yeah or younger men that that and women uh you know that are just you know more suited in terms of their you know where they are uh for this role I'm I'm always you know and people have not wanted me to retire and that's that's a signal that I'll be uh you know in the arena for a little while longer you know Sequoia um one of their um leaders named I'm going to mispronounce his last name Carl eschenbach I think is how you'd say it he said uh I read this when we brought Frank into snowflake at our first board meeting he said quote let me tell you how I'm running the board meetings and how you're going to participate we're going to keep this very simple I'm not even going to tell you anything about the good stuff that's happening because we already know that you're you said you're going to focus on what's broken I was so I've been in board meetings and and seen these before I am curious first and foremost about how you basically said like listen I'm not really listening to how you're gonna run the meeting I'm telling you how we're going to run the meeting and this is what we're going to do uh and you write about this at the end of of the book amp it up about like how CEOs should should basically understand the weight of their words and their and their power and use it for good what was it like at the beginning and do you remember that conversation with Frank when you said like this is this is what I'm going to do and I just want to let or his name's Carl well this is what I'm gonna do and I want to let you know how it's going as well as we're going to focus mainly on the the tough things and what's broken and then how I'm going to fix it yeah well you know I I first of all uh in board meeting this is another you know piece of unsolicited advice that I give CEOs and that is don't create a vacuum in a board context in other words don't the worst thing you can do in a board meeting is say what do you guys think okay because they're going to tell you okay what you want to do is tell them what you think okay you fill the vacuum you do not show up unprepared without you know a fully vetted way of thinking about situations so that's number one number two is I want to create full transparency I mean almost extreme transparency what I mean by that is I want them to feel the hell that's between my ears okay you're not just coming into this board meeting four times a year just do you have a pleasant conversation and drink coffee and you know talk intelligently about stuff and then you go home again no I'm going to make you feel the pain okay because now now we get full alignment now you understand really what we're really struggling with uh and if you're nervous coming out of this board meeting good because I am too okay so and and now we're talking about I I make it as real as I can okay and uh people sometimes when I remember when I was a service now they're like God you're really negative I'm like dude that that's your perception of what I said I'm just giving you reality it's neither this or that it is what it is right and by the way the company's doing so well and what do you want me to do do a Victory lap you're coming in here and you're going to get a dose of reality if you can't handle it you need to find another board I'd love to go inside a one-on-one meeting with you okay let's say your CFO who I know you've you've you've worked with a lot or other uh senior level leaders that report directly to you what are your one-on-ones like what do you focus on what questions do you ask what are the conversations sound like I'm fascinated by the inner workings of a one-on-one with somebody like you in the one-on-one meetings I mean I I look you know they're they're not as you know intense as you may as you may think they are because I I use it as a check-in and sort of dial into their frequency you know what's in your mind you know what's what's preoccupying you what's worrying you in other words stuck to me okay um and you know we talk a lot about the management team when a company's growing very very fast these people might be okay today are they going to be okay a year from now if so why do you think that right because we need to make decisions well ahead of the time you know one one it's needed right um there's always very very acute stuff not not always but you know frequently there are acute situations that you know we need to uh deal with but we also talk about you know sort of things that are not acute but are bothering us you know when and I'm into Clarity conviction you know I I really check the leadership um how clearly are you thinking about your situation you know what we're dealing with do you have your priorities straight or you're assessing the team correctly what and by the way you know there's another question I I asked the other day you know I said look we have I don't know how many months left in the year eight months left in the year if you can achieve only one thing the rest of this year what is it and they usually stare at me because they haven't thought about that question and it's and I'm not saying you're only going to do one thing for the rest of the year but what if that was the question what would the answer be because I want to know what is the most important thing that you need to accomplish and why is that okay uh because those conversations then really start to drive out what really really really matters versus the things that maybe matter a little bit less those are good conversations now they're contrived on purpose okay so that we we get to the heart of the issues what if we didn't do that no what happened right so you know it's I'm trying to get to high clarity you know High conviction you know on you know what are we doing so but it's really um you know it's really closing the fabric uh of the team connecting I connect with people whether I have a reason to or not we can also talk about the weather or your kids college choices I don't care you know and by the way those are fine conversations or what car did you buy or where are you going to you know take a family trip that's all fine right because we're human and and we have those conversations too you know we're not robots you know when you're hiring for a leadership role on your team what are some of the obviously they need to have the competence of the role your CFO has got to know that stuff right I get that but what are some of the qualities the aspects of their character that you're looking for and somebody to be on your leadership team well I I personally have a preference for people that have a sort of an inbred need to prove something uh to themselves that are siblings to their parents or their friends uh they're they're a bit unbalanced I don't want to say unhinged that that's too strong but unbalanced that's you know they have they have unfinished business in the worst way and they want to you know make their Mark they want to show the world what they're capable of um you know people and I you you feel that hate and that passion in the conversation right um because it's it's highly unresolved energy that that they are they're grappling with it they don't they don't know what to do with it I'm what I'm trying to do is provide an outlet and a path for that this is the place where you can you can play this out people sometimes ask me you know um you know how do you manage your people I'm like well it's more that they manage me okay because they're running so hard you know I gotta pull on the Range uh which is my preferred relationships as opposed to I gotta whip them up the hill which I don't want to do because they need to pull instead of me pushing right so you you're looking for people that have you know great ambition and you know they're not they're not so you know dysfunctional that they can be part of the team that that is possible as well I don't I don't like that at the end of the day we all come together we all fall in line I don't hand the tablets down the mountain I'm very facilitative in in the way you know I I manage the team everybody gets to weigh in and by the way that keeps me safe from doing stupid stuff stupid things happen between my ears but my team protects me from acting okay uh and good groups that are very high trust um they will converge on the right answers just through logical discourse and challenging each other and really vetting the conversation breaking it down examining it after a while you know you come to the one place that it's the only place you could have come to but it's a process to get to this is why it's so important to have great teams that are that are that are sort of a high trust environment because they converge you know uh really well together and by the way it's it can be testy okay because it's people will take each other on sales gets aggressive with with products you know Finance gets aggressive with sales that happens but they know that you know we always separate the message from the style in which it's delivered I often get in the middle of those kind of conversations because I look what's the message here forget the style in which it was delivered we always got to work on our style you know there's always a better way to deliver a message but what is the substance and do you agree with it almost all the time they agree with it they just can't separate you know the the you know the form from the function and uh you know in organizations that's where you know this function comes from because they just didn't like the way something was said and then they can no longer uh receive the message that was in there and the message the message that was in there was legitimate and needed to be you know thought about acted on and all that kind of stuff but in intense organizations yeah I mean sometimes the pressure boils over absolutely yeah my job to make sure that we get the lid back on and okay if we take a deep breath it's okay you know you're in the Army now you know so we the whole you know some people need to go to the rear for a while and and you know sort of recover a little bit from the intensity and then we go again you know you mentioned the first thing of what you look for is that kind of need to prove something is is do you still have that do you feel that way um I don't feel as much as I did as when I was a younger man there's no two ways about it you never I mean my experience the data domain which is the first company and that was a pure startup um I still think of that experience that's just Monumental uh career-wise it was a fantastic experience because we did so many things that I didn't even I couldn't even imagine you know we did because we were started with no Revenue no customers and 15 people we had no viability we didn't even know how to think about ourselves we were running out of money and we're raising money was hard almost like it is now uh back in the day and the fact that it became you know a multi-billion Dollar business instilled this to this day um you know where you can never take that away from us I mean there's there's an immense sense of rewards and pride uh in in that kind of work but you only have that the first time the second time you don't have that again you just don't and uh because this like you know there's only a first time for something and there's there's there's not another first time okay and your service now is different because it was like they definitely had you know product Market fed but in a very different way than it does today um and there was velocity and they had all these things and was just you know it had operationally I mean it was you know there was a lot of work to be done but it was a very different type of a challenge we were scared to death by the way at service now because I mean that that that thing was it could have blown itself up numerous times over people couldn't see that from the outside because it wasn't so much visible from the outside on the inside people were scared okay and we really had to figure out how to you know really harness and get control of the situation here we were you know running you know I.T systems for the largest corporations and we were a popsicle standard okay uh in terms of our sophistication and resourcing so that's scary as well but very different than when you don't know whether you have viability or not that's a different kind of scared you know I I remember even hearing Michael Jordan out of the words you know I have nothing left to prove nothing left to prove and I'm not trying to make a comparison between you and Michael Jordan but I mean there's not many CEOs who have done it three times they're just they're just aren't I I don't I can't name them right now you have though so it feels like it might be hard to battle against getting a huge ego to thinking you've got all the answers to being like hey like look at me look what I've done I don't get that sense like I sense a lot of confidence right in you and and you've you've you've got earned confidence through the evidence you've provided yourself but I still sense like a bit of humility in a weird way even though it could you could probably easily be the guy to say like hey what are we doing here look what I've done you should be coming to me for all of the answers what do you what do you think about that yeah you know if you uh if you talk to the people that worked with me for a long time um I'm quite certain that they will tell you that I don't have much ego which is unusual because you know most CEOs uh need ego because you can't do this work without it on the other hand you need to have your ego and check up unless you become insufferable okay there's this balance yes you need some but you don't need too much there's this disright thing in the in the middle there but you know I never uh you know somebody said to me hey Frank you know we need to step aside you know um I will be out of there in 20 minutes okay and and it's like I would have a glass of wine and talk to my wife and pet my dogs and it would be fine because I am not my personal you know uh experience is not so wrapped up that you know that would become a devastating experience to me I also never talk about Legacy I can't tell you how many people use the word legacy what's my legacy I never think about leaving a legacy it's like you know when you're dead you're dead you know you don't need a legacy you know I mean it's like well you what you need a street named after you I mean what is this nonsense you know this obsession with Legacy right in other words they can't face their own mortality that's why they're talking about Legacy I don't think in those times at all so yes in that sense I have low ego and I think it's it's helpful for uh for a CEO to not overdose on ego I I absolutely think and oftentimes that's not the case I mean CEOs lose them so you know I mean they when they're successful um you know they they become difficult and you see that with Founders as well all of a sudden they've had a success and they think that wow you know I'm I'm amazing you know maybe you were just lucky okay instead of amazing and I've seen a lot of Founders who like they were very very successful but then they think they can do it on command and they can't right because there's it's a very very complex mix but creates success they just think like oh I had a great idea and I acted on that was it no it's not it's the timing it's the Confluence of circumstances there's a whole host of variables you didn't even know you know acted on the situation you think it was all you it wasn't most of the people who have in my life or the ones I've interviewed who have done extraordinarily well but also remain humble they have a good Core group of like a kitchen cabinet or a board of advisors or a good peer group good friends sometimes it involves like close family members a spouse what's your what's that like for you like do you have a core group of a small group of people that kind of keep you like I have my my wife and my brother and others who are like very close that no matter what happens like we know we We Got Each Other's back and we're also going to keep each other in line do you have that if so like who who are those people for you well um this is another thing you know I I have a fairly low dependency on externals let me just put it that way okay um and that's you know when you're when you're in the combat zone you know who are you gonna call you know um you need to be very very comfortable between your own ears um I mean the number the the group that matters to most to me in terms of doing this kind of work is my own team those are the people that give me context you know every moment of the day okay so um that that's that's where I get it you know uh I I find that a lot of people could be good CEOs but they a lot of people miss the psychology of being a CEO and that's psychology is that they they're they're Pleasers they're appeasers they're very very dependent on relationships you can't be a CEO that way okay I mean you can but you're not going to be that great okay and it's like being an NFL coach you know if you don't win you will get fired it's guaranteed okay um and that is the reality of it if you can't deal with that you're doing the wrong job you can please the fans you can police the alumni it won't make a damn bit of difference okay because you lose they're going to replace you so once you know that yeah it is what it is you know um so you know um that that comfort in your own mind is something you got to learn uh look I've been around a long time I've been uh I've been not a CEO for a long time I had you know 20 years where I wasn't the CEO okay I've seen a lot of other CEOs okay that I that I worked for or worked with or saw from afar where I saw behaviors that I absolutely didn't like in other words I will never be that way if I ever get to walk in those shoes in other words they they taught they were negative Role Models they taught me what I wouldn't want to do and that was very helpful I I find negative Role Models actually more more instructive than than positive ones the positive ones are obvious you know but the negative ones what did you learn you know from that experience that you never would want to repeat um I've talked about this this many times and uh you know people inadvertently did me a huge favor by exhibiting behavior that I absolutely in other words I didn't fall prey to that behavior because I saw it and I saw how the employees reacted to it I'm like man I can't be ever I can't be like that ever I can't say I cannot say things like that ever because I see how people are internalizing that style of behavior you know and uh that was that was helpful and by the way you know I spent 20 years not being a CEO and I needed a lot of years not being a CEO to become a CEO I when people become CEOs at age 25 I mean how do you do that you just don't have the life experience you know and they're smart and they're aggressive and they're hard working and they have all these things but they don't have the intangible intangibles in the psychology and then they're devastated when they get flipped out of their job and you know actually getting flipped out of their job was probably a very good thing for them it'll take them another 20 years to realize that you know what are some of the things you learned from those negative Role Models those CEOs what are what are like actual behaviors things they said things they did that you wrote down in your journal or you put it away in your mind I will never do that I'm not going to do that I'm not going to do that what are some of those few things well you know exhibits of Lifestyle you know thinking they're sort of you know above everybody else and you know the way they talk to people uh it's just there it's just a a callousness I can't be touched CEOs get drunk under their own power all the time and uh CEOs have an enormous amount of power but not everybody can handle it um actually CEOs are way more power than they realize that's that's another thing that I that I talk about often because again they come from uh from another job when they want to see where they had far less power there's an enormous Gap you know between a senior executive and being a CEO they just think that it's a small incremental thing it's not it's ginormous so you know once they sort of embrace that enormity sometimes the behavior you know does not you know improve and I guess it gets worse especially when they've had success because now they think they can afford whatever you can't you know humility is is important it's just a job man it's just a role if you're not a CEO tomorrow who would you be is it lonely look you know some people have enormous need for having company around them they they get lonely very quickly other people for Less I don't you know I'm I'm very good at you know being alone that's just my psychology that makes me more suitable for uh for the role as well because it doesn't phase me but I know a lot of other people there's this tremendous need and that that probably makes them less suitable for these roles and that's why you know I've been involved in a lot of CEO searches for other companies and everybody's always lamenting the fact that my gather is a thirst of talent out there and it's like well and it's not so much that that they don't have the the the the material skills is that the psychology uh is very difficult to acquire and you know you could argue you know that CEOs are a little bit dysfunctional in their psychology yeah that that's a subjective you know uh assessment but it's different that I will tell you how did being rejected by IBM earlier I think I read a dozen times if that's accurate how did that impact you later on in your career that at the beginning that people said no Frank we don't want you sorry not good enough how did that impact it was not so much that I wasn't good enough I suppose more they didn't know what to do with me uh me and we could buy it foreign credentials they couldn't even pronounce it let alone understand what it was that's different today you know 30 years later you know people the international careers are much more common and the back then you know you had these cookie cutter resumes that then people said okay you did this you did that therefore you're going to fit in these roles and you know we hire and by the way I'd be having tons of people in those days I thought I could easily flow you know into that group but I couldn't because they looked at me like we don't know what to do with this dude so so you know it's just you know and when you're that age and you're that impressionable I mean it's incredibly hurtful because you're like I did everything right you know I did everything I possibly could and you just summarily pass on me right so again you know it it leads this uh you're going to want to prove them wrong in the in the most profound way that you can right so it it fills your your tanks with jet fuel is what it does you know and uh that was that that's that's really the the net of it but you know I've said many times that down the road you know uh I realized that they did me a huge favor because if I had flown and flowed into that company and become whatever um you know I would have been a very different person you know yeah when looking back you see the benefits of it even though it hurt in the time when it comes to hiring you've said hire people ahead of their own curve hire more for aptitude than experience and give people the career opportunity of a lifetime love love that can you can you go deeper on hiring people ahead of their own curve and what that means well in Silicon Valley we do this all the time we may not realize uh because there's there's scarcity and by the way hell we put CEOs in jobs way before long before they're ready right we do this almost all the time so in other words we do it whether we realize it or not the point is that aptitude is a very uh no nondescript thing but what what does that really mean um and you know what it really means is you know what are you and innately good at you know what are you sort of better at Naturally than than the next person what is that an assessing aptitude is really important because you know I can't I can give you experience but I can't give you aptitude you come with aptitude it is what it is so I have to assess that you know very very well by the way that's what was my first question in the interview I always ask people what's your center of gravity what do you what do you think are your god-given you know talents things that you just excel at don't mention golf you don't want to hear about that but you know it's it's like where where is it where you feel like you know you just shine okay talk to me about that it's not a trick question I just want to know what you think you know is is is really the core of your being right and by the way tell me the inverse as well which is I suck at this or I suck at that because it just doesn't it doesn't suit me for whatever reason it's incredibly helpful to me to know you know where you shine and where where I should never you try to use you right and um and once I have essentially your attitude and like then I also know how to get you experienced because the combination of aptitude and experience you know it becomes you know a liar performance you know and people will be happy they will be successful I mean everything will be good you know when when you match their aptitude with their uh their experience you know I'm for example you know I'm a highly abstract uh thinker I'm a super lateral thinker I'm not a functional exec I'm not an engineering manager I'm a finance manager I'm not a sales manager because I'm this this person who you know by nature is highly lateral on an abstraction so I just see thanks you know from a helicopter point of view I can go to the lowest level of detail but I start high and then go low that's just the way that I am there's lots of people who are not that way okay but once you know that you know there are certain things that really suit themselves to you by the way I was a product manager for a long time and I was a product GM for a long time why because that that orientation really lends itself well through those types of role I was like a fish in the water for those types of roles I would not have been good in a functionally narrow job because that's just not how built yeah interesting so if the question was flipped on you that's what you would say yes lateral thinking can what is what does being a lateral thinker mean it means that you see all the dimensions you know of a subject or a topic and their relationships and the analogies with other situations I mean I can I can talk about analogies all day long people look at me like where did you get that well that's just because that's how my mind works I see now like a situations constantly can you give me an example well nothing comes to mind but I'll uh I'll I'll think of one got you one of uh by the way I I can give you an example actually I'm actually thinking of one right now but it would be in the Weeds on on products though probably not not suitable for effort so another thing that I read about your leadership style that you said I'm more a patent than an Eisenhower what do you mean by that well you know Eisenhower was first of all he was not a combat General never really been he was always a staff General very accomplished though obviously and you need those people too and you know Eisenhower was also a highly political person he needed to be you know in a post-world war II Europe was immensely difficult Place uh he needed to decide whether the Russians were Friend or Foe well if you had asked Patton what a Russian was friend or Foley who would have told you okay and he he knew the Russians were bad back then okay and he was not confused at all right but you know Eisenhower wouldn't want any of it and that that became the post-world War II order the generals are very black and white you know either you're going to kill me or I'm going to kill you and uh you know they know what they're doing he was racing you know to get across the river you know into Germany and you know he was an absolute total combat leader um you know and uh you need people like that um you also need Eisenhower's I'm not saying that one is better than the other they're just different but you need both uh I have more to flavor of uh you know running the Army rather than being a political person I'm not a political person I would absolutely suck if I had to be a governor or a mayor or some job like that it would be terrible it would be miserable so don't ever think about me in those terms you know so well one of the things you've written about that I read that I liked was putting the success of the company ahead of your own and that the Celeb style CEOs bother you that that work to kind of be famous how do you feel about that in your role as a CEO I mean we're doing an interview here that will be public uh you've written books that are public for for public consumption I know you do it as an operator for operators which again that's why I think it's it's so useful and practical but this difference between being this celebrity CEO on the cover of magazines versus how you view being a CEO yeah you know I mean the the book writing I I really did it first of all the the last book uh the amp it up book which was quite a successful listen but I didn't want to do it okay our CMO uh Denise person is the one that kind of you know said no you need to do it you know she was and and she said I'll make it easy for you I'll do everything so that it doesn't become a drag on you I didn't want to do it uh because but the reason that we do it is we get tons and tons of inbounds you know how long can you speak here can you speak there can you take this meeting you take that meeting I'm like Christ Almighty we can't accommodate even a fraction of that okay so you know writing it down is my way of conveying look I know the questions that you have here are the answers because I wrote the book from the standpoint of look I know you have these questions this is my best attempt at answering your questions okay but then people go like oh I want to talk more I'm like the book actually you know created even more demand for for meetings and podcasts and speaking engagement and and all that so another word that strategy didn't work at all um so I I look results need to speak for themselves if the results are good great um you know and if you I I really don't uh you know have a great need to um I mean I don't do a lot of press for example um I have no need for it to constantly comment it's always my my communications teams that are saying you need to do this you need to do that and I I concede a lot if it was up to me I would do none of it you know because I'm like look I publish my results I hope you like it you know and and then we move on to the next and that that's more how I'm naturally built you know well I mean the just to go a little inside baseball here you met you probably don't even know this the process for this conversation to happen has been more than a year in the making of emails and back and forth and questions from your team doing I think a great job vetting if the this is worth an hour of your time and I think that's what a good CEO surrounds himself with a team of people to do that because I wanted to have you on for a long time so uh they've done a great job and I'm I'm very happy though you eventually agreed or they gave the green light or it all came together because it is it is kind of neat to see the inner workings of how this stuff gets done because a current active operating CEO it it doesn't happen that often it usually when I get them it does take a lot of work in your case I think it did too but you present so many amazing ideas that are useful and practical and real life happening as we speak right now it's not like oh this is what I used to do this is like what I'm doing literally right now I think that's super useful for people to hear in the moment yeah well look we we have a responsibility to share there are Generations multiples you know in these roles and they're pulling their hair out if they have any left you know about what to do here and those are the people that I speak to those are the people that that's the man of the Arena that's why you know it is what it is and uh and you know I don't care how big the audience is you know we're not trying to be Tony Robbins or something like that and that you know people say your philosophy this is not a philosophy this is just these are just observations I mean philosophy makes it like something that we're going to teach or practice no I mean there's just things here that you can try on for size hope you like it and if you don't that's fine also yeah when you got hired April 26 2019 I think you wrote the good news was they were already on a tear at snowflake the bad news quote the company was quite impressed with itself what was it like at the very beginning I mean it's just a few years ago but it was like at the beginning when you when you got the role yeah that that that just drives me uh out of my model you know when I see people being so happy with themselves all they want to do is Victory lapse all day it's like oh my God we're amazing and all we want to do is celebrate all day and it just it just it is the worst reflex that people a group of people can have right so what you want to do as a leader assistant get over yourself real quick like in the next minute okay unless let's examine this you know in terms of everything that is wrong you know back to the Carl lessenback uh you know uh example that you brought up we're going to talk about things that are not right hey I took one look at the p l I'm like well this is one fat pig no discipline you can't scale this you know I mean sales and marketing was 160 of Revenue it doesn't expensive hobby that ain't a business you know on and on and on you know so it's like you know get real with yourself right and uh you know no business you know every business has tons and tons of issues it's just the nature of things you can pick any of them okay you think they're all perfectly pristine well it was I I appreciate you going inside while it's happening because again I think that's pretty rare I'm curious from your perspective Frank and you probably uh have these these requests all the time as far as from a a recent college graduate who has uh wants to do well wants to leave a positive dent in the world what are some general pieces of Life slash career advice you'd give to that person well there's there's numerous things I actually wrote a LinkedIn article five six years ago also about okay if you're under 30 and you're you're out of school whatever you know seven eight years you know whatever there's some of the things that you want to think about because when you're young and you're out of school you need to really think more strategic uh in terms of what kind of experiences should I have what industry should I be in what company should I be in you know what kind of rules you know should I aspire to those are really important questions rather than how much do I get paid what will my title be where will I be and the location is really important to people and who will my peers be uh those are all the wrong instincts in the wrong reflexes right where are you going to be geographically used to be a really big thing obviously much less uh now I mean Silicon Valley was just a center of the universe now Silicon Valley is more of a culture they're out of that place so you know I talk about all those aspects but laying foundations for for a long period of time is really important you know and more specifically you know I tell people look look for jobs that are close to the drive train of the Enterprise you know where things get built where things get supported where things get sold where you're very very close to the to the uh to the transfer of value I'm giving you a product and you're paying it you want to know what that's like you know what really happens in that process because most people are layers and layers and layers removed their feet don't touch the ground they talk smart about [ __ ] but they don't have no idea what this business you know really really is and the older you are you know the more removed you're going to be so therefore start early you know you want to have experiences that are real as real as you can make it now a lot of people want to shy away from that because crap that's that sounds scary being accountable moving the dial having to solve real problems it's like wow it's going to show whether I'm any good or or not I'm like you're damn right to this okay it is going to show so you eat a rice to that occasion um or you know you don't and uh and people rather hide from that level of challenged rather than just embrace it and I'm telling people embrace it you know I sometimes speak to uh these graduating classes at Columbia and London School of economics and they always ask me and if you have one piece of advice and I'm like yeah don't go work for an investment Bank don't go and work for a consulting company don't go work for McKenzie you don't even know anything how can you how can you be a consultant what are you going to consult about get a job building and selling something okay and they look at me with fear like what are you talking about you know we have this Elite brand name education and we can monetize the living hell out of this thing you know I'm like yeah you can and that's the wrong reflex you'll never be somebody you'll never know where you're worth a goddamn okay and I I I sometimes get emails back a year later and they go like I heard what you said and I want you to know that I did this I I turned a few hats not many probably but a few and you know if I can say just one I'm already throw the bits okay yeah I love that because I I graduated college after getting into playing sports and uh my dad said if you don't because I had no idea what I want to do get a job in sales you'll learn quick about how hard it is and it was the best 12-year experience ever because you sell every single day whether you carry a bag and have a quota or not you are you work in sales and I think that is an awesome piece of advice for people like get close to the customer get close to the product be the one transacting like make it happen and he goes great sales people at least I know people get laid off but great sales people it just doesn't really happen another good piece of advice that I think when it when it comes to this Frank I really appreciate your time especially taking away a while in Hawaii the books called or the most recent book is called amp it up leading for hyper growth by raising expectations increasing urgency and elevating intensity it's really good for all leaders and I was attracted to it when you first wrote it and that's why I've been on a mission to have this conversation so thank you so much for being here and I'd love to continue our dialogue as we both progress man great thanks Ryan