Hey neighbors, today might be one of my favorite days because I got to sit down with truly one of my, I don't know, top three heroes. I'm talking top three heroes in the world, Lisa Turkhurst, and she brought is one of your heroes too. And if you don't know her, she is a New York Times bestselling author, a speaker. She is the president and founder of Proverbs 31 Ministries.
I like to call her the matriarch of women's ministry. She is just a powerhouse for the kingdom of God. Her books, Made for More, Uninvited.
I mean, she's written so many, but those two in particular, not even kidding when I say this, changed my life so many years ago, 10 plus years ago. And if you would have told... me 10 years ago that I would be sitting down with her today to unpack life, our new friendship, her new marriage.
I just, I literally wouldn't believe you because that's just what a big deal she was to me. And now she's my friend, which is crazy. And she randomly kind of lives in Jacksonville because her now husband, Chaz, who you get to meet him too, he's incredible.
And he is from Jacksonville. So now they kind of live here. And I'm just blown away by how God continues to use her in my life. either through her books or through a personal relationship.
And then for her to bless the neighbors community and show up to this little storage unit we have here in Atlantic Beach and record a podcast episode when she could be doing so many other things. She is doing so many other things. But her and Chaz took the time to sit down with me today and talk about how they met and what it's like. Having a second marriage, especially after experiencing infidelity. And Chaz tells a little bit of his story of being sober for 10 years and how...
the lessons that he's learned from his first marriage, how he brings that into his marriage with Lisa now, and now they get to do ministry alongside one another. And Lisa is in a really exciting season right now. Last week, she just launched, I think it's like her 30 something book, I Want to Trust You, But I Don't. And I feel like we're talking on the Neighbors podcast all the time of so many hard things in life boiled down to, can I trust God?
Or I want to trust God, but I don't. And that's what this book unpacks. And so it's going to probably change a lot of lives, just like every other book of hers has. And so you should grab a copy if you don't have one already. But I just am so excited for you to hear this conversation with Lisa and Chaz.
And if you love this conversation, please leave us a review. Give us a five-star review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It helps neighbors grow and reach more people, which we'd love to do. And then if you're joining with us on YouTube, subscribe or like.
And let's get the message of hope and healing and God's love. love out there so that more people can experience the abundant life. Here's my conversation. I can't wait. Here's my conversation with Lisa and Chaz.
Welcome to the Neighbors Podcast, Lisa and Chaz. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having us.
This is super fun. This is super fun. I mean, you have no idea how this is like, I don't really fangirl over many people, Lisa, and we're friends now, so it's not as much of a fangirl anymore. It still is, though. But gosh, if you would have told sad, single, struggling Allie from 12 years ago, as I was reading Made to Crave, that we would be sitting here in this podcast studio in this storage unit in Jacksonville, Florida, and you would be sitting on this couch.
I mean, I just wouldn't have believed it. This is crazy. But here you are.
The sweetness of God, you know, I. I don't really consider people like fangirling more. It's just, I think we've gotten to be friends through the pages of my books. And so they're just excited to see a friend.
And so I'm honored. I'm honored to get to sit with you and new season for you, new season for me. But I just, I think it's the sweetness of God to bring people together who we can comfort each other with the comfort we've received from him.
Yeah, so true. Yeah, so you recently kind of moved to Jacksonville, like halfway, I guess, if you will, which we'll get to you, Chaz, don't worry. We love that you're here, too.
But you recently just moved to Jacksonville because you and Chaz got married, which of course we're going to unpack. And you started coming to our church, and our lead pastor, Pastor Joby, he ran into you guys at a restaurant. And the next day we're sitting in a meeting, and he's like, guess who I met last night?
You know, he's like flaunting it. I'm like, who'd you meet last night? He says...
Lisa Turkhurst and I I was my jaw literally dropped to the ground I'm like where did you meet Lisa Turkhurst he's like she lives in Jacksonville now she goes to our church and turns out you had been kind of secretly attending our church not secretly but yeah for like a year and a half so long just not telling anyone and and then I got to meet you a couple weeks later and um This is embarrassing for me because the first place that I took you guys when we went to dinner for the first time was Taco... Oh, I shouldn't say it. I'm not going to say the name of it. I just kind of said it. It was a taco place in a strip center.
In a strip center that's very subpar tacos. And I couldn't believe I was taking you there. It was really good, Allie.
You kept saying that, but... I don't feel like you actually thought it was that good. I did.
I thought it was good. Chaz loved it, though. He got flan.
Right? Yes. Or churros or something. Yes, I sure did. I always got to get dessert.
I'm not even like a big fan of tacos. Oh, really? For me to say it was a good taco.
But you got tacos the second time we got together, too. I know. So you just kind of like default to it, maybe. I just kind of think of like alley tacos. Great.
The food you don't love. But I love you. Okay.
And then, Chaz, I feel like it says so much about a person. I feel like you're the kind of person, without fail, you order dessert. It doesn't even matter what the dessert is.
Right. Because I feel like I asked you, like, do you even like flan? And you're like, I have no idea, but I love dessert.
Yeah. I was just going there. Now, we were driving over here today, and we stopped at a deli and got egg salad sandwiches. We really like egg salad sandwiches. I love egg salad.
And the minute we finished, he was like, do we have time to grab a dessert? Are you just a big dessert guy? I'm a dessert guy. Yeah. Like, to the point, it doesn't even matter what you eat.
It's all for getting to dessert? Pretty much. I mean, the dinner's important, but dessert's the fun part, right? So what's your go-to? I couldn't agree more.
You're speaking my language. Other than flan, I couldn't get behind the flan at the taco in the strip mall place. Like squishy.
Squishy. So squishy. Oh, man.
Such a strange texture. If you had your ideal dessert, what would it be? I mean, chocolate ice cream would be a go-to, right? Yeah, chocolate ice cream. Pretty straightforward.
Yeah. Never disappoints. Yes. I've never met a bad chocolate ice cream.
Never met one. All right. So now that you're new to Jacksonville, what is your favorite spot to go to? Well, let's see. Honestly, just our house.
Like I know that may sound kind of funny, but we live on the Ponte Vedra Beach side of Jacksonville. And every room in our house looks out over the marsh. Which I never understood marsh.
Like I used to think marsh and I would think swamp, right? Okay. So I just need to clarify that the marsh is actually one of the prettiest landscapes. It is, you get to see water, tons of wildlife and grasses that are in every green, yellow, beautiful colors. Like it's just really, really beautiful.
So that's my very favorite place. Like I walk into my house and I'm like, I am so happy. Oh, I love that. Don't we love that as Jacksonville natives, Chaz? 100%.
It's like music. When someone falls in love with Jacksonville, you're just like, yeah, we've been trying to tell everyone. Yeah.
And you know what's so funny? I grew up in Tallahassee, Florida. I didn't know that. Yeah. And I always loved Tallahassee.
But when I was 18, I was ready to go to the Carolinas. And so I made plans, went to college in the Carolinas. I got my first job in the Carolinas, have lived in the Carolinas my entire adult life.
And so it's not that I said like, oh, I'll never go back to Florida, but I was so eager to like move to the Carolinas. And so now it's funny because it all comes back full circle, right? That's incredible. But I do live half time in Carolinas, half time down here and it works great.
The last time we got together, it reminds me how confusing Jacksonville is. when someone who isn't from here, they're new here, and we were trying to meet somewhere, and then you ended up going to, I didn't know that there were even two locations. And I called you and you're like, I don't think I'm at the right place. We were going to this little cafe in Atlantic Beach. And I said, well, are you in Atlantic Beach?
And she's so defeated. She said, well, Allie, I don't know where I am. I don't know where I am in Jacksonville because it has so many parts to it, which can be really confusing.
And you were like off South side, which. It was you were so far we're so far away 30 minutes away from each other it was like closer to 40 minutes apart so we had to meet in the middle it was a mess but um yeah we're just so glad to have you in Jacksonville it's so fun so Jacksonville because of Chaz so now we'll get to how did you guys meet this is I'm gonna let you answer dating app dating app yeah this is gonna encourage a lot of people I have a lot of single friends out there it's very daunting but yeah you go ahead yeah What were you going to say? It's very daunting and... And it can be, lead to this as well. Yeah, daunting and lead to marriage.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well, I always said, like, I will never try to meet someone online.
Never. And there were so many reasons for that. And even when my kids heard that I was going to, like, like, load a little profile up onto a dating app.
My kids were like, that's so trashy. And they just kept saying that word trashy, trashy. And I was like, well, I'm not trashy. So therefore it's not. My experience will not be trashy.
Right. But I don't endorse it. I don't say like, oh, man, this is.
Are you going to be the face of the dating app? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But I will say the particular app we use.
It had an incognito feature, so only the people I wanted to see, you know, only the guys that I wanted to see my profile could see it. And it is a treacherous place. That's a good word for it. It is a treacherous place. And you set your settings to the whole country.
Okay, I did. That's a bold move. You're about to meet a man from Alaska.
No, I wouldn't have gone. You're a continental 48. Well, I was really East Coast, you know, but I don't know. I couldn't really figure out how to just limit it to East.
So I was like, well. Well, it looks like it's the whole country. U.S. of A. Yeah, because you, I mean, you did some long, well, obviously this was long distance, but yeah, you were not, you were going states away if needed.
Which I actually think maybe more Christian single women or men should do that because. If you're not finding what you want in the town that you're in, I mean, you got to broaden your horizons and maybe look outside the state. I know, you know, it's this hard thing, though, because I like if someone like one of my single friends, if they were to come up to me, like, do you think I should do the dating app? I always have this hesitation, like, oh, be prepared because it's it is not for the faint of heart. And so I almost am like, I don't.
Like, yes, I'm super grateful that it provided a way for me to meet Chaz 100 percent. And we would have never met otherwise. I mean, certainly God could do anything.
But I do believe that God brought us together through this unusual source. And I'm really grateful. But yeah, but no, I will never be the face of it. I will never endorse it.
I will I will not like stand up and rah rah it at all. OK, and my favorite part of the story is. that Chaz didn't know who you were at first. I love that part. You loved that. Okay, so I'm going to let you.
Yeah, you tell that part, Chaz. Yeah. No, I had no idea who she was.
I almost messed the whole thing up the first time we were supposed to speak. But, yeah, the first night, she literally had me in just laughing so hard, like belly laughing, like pounding my fist on the bed laughing so hard, tears rolling down my eyes. And I remember saying at the end of her, at the end of the conversation, Hey, if we never speak again, like, thank you so much for making me laugh this hard.
Like I've gone through, you know, my mother's passed away. My brother, you know, I've gone through a lot, second divorce, all these things. Thanks for making me laugh.
It felt amazing. She's like, no problem. We'll, we'll probably talk again. So, um, yeah, probably, probably gotta leave the door. Yeah, exactly.
Um, so next morning she sends me, um, and again, not knowing she's Lisa Turkers, but she sends me a writing that's like, just really, really, really funny. good and inspirational at the end of it. And I'll admit I was in the truck going to an appointment. I'm in the insurance business.
I was going to an appointment and I wanted to read it. And after I got done, my lips started quivering and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to cry. And so I started crying in the truck on the way to this appointment. And I'm like, who is this woman? We've all been there, Chaz.
She's made all of us cry with her writing. So she did. Good point, Allie. I mean, yours was a personal one, which definitely matters more. But welcome.
Welcome to the Lisa Turgers Club. That was my introduction. That was. Having no clue.
So I'm like, wow, I need to meet this woman. Like, if she's going to make me laugh that hard and then cry, this is different. And so I busted out the American Airlines app. No, she's in Charlotte. And I'm like, okay, 45 minute flight.
Watch this. So I call her. I'm like, hey, how about just coffee? Coffee's easy, right? It's an hour.
Like you're not locked into a whole evening or any of that stuff. And she's like, yeah, that's why don't you come up? That would be amazing. So that's kind of where it started.
Which I love that. I mean, that is such a great note for men too. Like that is standing up and just pursuing what you felt in the moment.
Intentional. I'm going to, you, you took a whole flight to have a one hour coffee because what, what if, you know, you just never know what was going to happen. And I think that initiative and pursuit is, I mean, we want to be pursued as women. And when you hear like a guy's going to fly States away just to take you for a cup of coffee, that says so much about your character before you've even actually sat down for the coffee, you know, which is so powerful.
And here's what's so funny. I was so impressed by that. And so we kept talking. Um, you know, like we were doing FaceTimes and stuff and I had a rule, I had several rules about this whole situation. So I had like really strict boundaries and really.
good rules. And one of them was before I would go on a live date, they had to talk to my girlfriends. And so I had two girlfriends and they were very invested in my whole dating process. And so when he talked to my girlfriends and we continued to talk before he came up, he had already offered.
But I was like, hey, why don't you get a hotel? And actually stay and let's just go on a real date. Cause I felt comfortable enough. But initially when he just said he would fly up to just take me to coffee, no one had ever said something like that.
And I was, I was really, I was like, wow, that really sets him apart. Yeah, no doubt. And then wasn't it on your first date when you said, like you asked him not to Google you or something? Yeah.
Well, I told him, I was like, Hey, so I know with this. online dating thing, you know, like people do Google each other and I get it and everything. And I was like, so have you already Googled me? And he was like, no. And again, I was so impressed by that.
And I was like, well, you're welcome to do anything that you want. Like you can, or you can't or whatever, but I would love the opportunity to tell you about me. And he completely honored that.
That's so sweet. So then at what point did you find out she was a... globally known author and speaker.
You know, I didn't know when she picked me up at the airport in a big Lincoln Navigator that was all matted out. And I'm like, okay, this is a big kind of cool car. Well, that's because I have so many kids.
I know. You do. You have a lot of people to put in a car.
You do. I really, that car is my nemesis. It really is, though.
This is such a funny thing. It is. Both of us, actually.
Well, he was impressed by it, so. Everywhere I drive in this humongous land yacht, truly, I get beeped at. Like, I'm so used to it.
Like in a, like a, hey, cool car? Uh, no. Or lady, learn how to drive.
I will receive it now. It's like, ah! I'm so glad you like my car.
But no, that is not why they're reaping at me. The car is just too big. But anyways, go ahead. So I pick you up in this ridiculous car.
The big car. Yeah, what have you. And we just, we roll down to her place. And I mean, and she has a beautiful, beautiful home in Charlotte. Did you ride the slide?
I did ride the slide. So yeah, it has its own slide. And so as we entered the property, I was like, whoa, this is quite the property.
And now she's been there for 30 years. And, and, uh. It's been, it's neat to see what it is now. But as we kind of ventured down that driveway, I looked at her and I was like, huh.
So what are you really dying to Google you right now? Yes. What's, what's going on? So, um, but that's kind of when I was like, Hey, what's, what's going on here? And, uh, what was kind of cool or what was cool was that her whole family was there.
So I really got thrown into the mix almost immediately. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. We're talking like my mom was there. My kids were there.
The grandkids were there. The first week he came up. Well. My house is kind of like the gathering spot for my kids.
And so they just really, really, really are present in that house. It's the only home that they've ever known. Now, they all are married and they've got, you know, their own homes and everything.
But most of them live very close by. And so my home is like the fun place. And so, yeah, they happen to be having family movie night.
So he just really stepped right in it. I mean, that's a lot to walk into. Yes. But you did it. And you came out on the other side.
You came out on top. Somehow, someway, yeah. Okay, so this is kind of the first time you guys have really done something like this, talked about, you know, your story and how you met.
And Chaz, I would love for you to share part of your story. You know, Lisa is so transparent. You know, not, of course, giving all the details of all the things, but the way you write and speak from such an authentic place of real pain and hurt.
And, I mean, you've had quite a journey. And so many people know your story, but Chaz, you're kind of this mystery man over here. And so will you share just a bit of your story and what you've been through? Yeah, yeah.
It's been a lot. Like it started out, I'm originally from Dallas, Texas, and my parents were divorced when I was about 10. I was the oldest of three boys. We moved out to Ponte Vedra.
I like to say my mom kind of ran us home to her dad. And he took... Took good care of us. We had a real amazing relationship with my grandfather.
Grew up in Ponte Vedra and went to the elementary school, went to high school, went to college at UCF. Came back here and got in the insurance business after I graduated. I was always love to surf, love to fish, love to party, love to, you know, to drink. And as I came back here, my drinking, got married, had kids, but my drinking just kept escalating over time. And we had, my wife and I had been married for some time.
My kids were probably around nine or 11. And a neighbor next door, unfortunately, committed suicide. And that. Set off a chain of events that led to adultery.
It led to my drinking escalating. It led to a pain pill addiction. It basically led to, you know, a point where I got to the very bottom. And got to a point in 2014 when I was in Park City, Utah, and a very good friend of mine that was a pastor at the time prayed over me for probably four or five hours. And, um, and I was truly at my wits end and, uh, came back from being out there.
And two days later was blessed to, to have my last drop of alcohol at that point. So, and that was, you know, 10, 10 years ago in 2014, when I had my last, my last beer. Um, but since that happened, it's been quite the journey to like, just what is the, as they say in AA, putting a plug in the jug was just like the very beginning of a lot, a lot of stuff.
So literally within. a week of being sober, the clouds lifted, so to speak, and I very quickly realized that my wife was having an affair with somebody at work, you know, kind of returning the favor of something that I had done years earlier, you know, more or less. And at that point, I told her, hey, you know, if you want to get out of jail free, this is the time to do it. You know, this is, I'm trying to get sober.
We're going to see what happens here. And unfortunately, that didn't happen. And, you know, nine months later, I had to ask her to move out. And this is during white knuckling sobriety, trying to get sober every day. And I'd finally found something that worked for me, which is AA and something that I will probably share more of that journey.
But then about 13 months into sobriety, my brother died, drank himself to death in an apartment in Jack's Beach. And he was only 39. 39 years old, left behind a daughter. So like that was kind of like my first like, hey, welcome to sobriety, big boy.
And but I just kept going to meetings. Things started to slowly get better. I just knew that when when I would go to meetings and I was starting to, you know, work these steps that I started to feel better slowly over time.
And I really did. And I started to develop these relationships that had disintegrated in my relationship with my kids got better and all these things, you know. So before I know it, I was at a point where, you know, it was. Able to take my kids on surf trips and spend, you know, just amazing time with them.
And then, you know, eventually I got to a point where, you know, A, it's just been an amazing part of my life. But my daughter came to me one day and was like, hey, there's this really cool church called 1122. And I'm like, huh. And she's like, you want to come with me on Sunday?
And she played me in. a lot of the girls from high school have been going. And I'm like, you know what?
I've heard of this Joby guy. I remember him. I remember him from Beach United Methodist Church.
We used to do the benefits there. And I remember Joby. And let me go with you.
And so I went and I remember coming in and hearing loud music and low dim lit. And I was like, what's going on here with all this? But Joby walked out and I'm telling you within 90 seconds to two minutes, I was in, I was like, this is my guy. Like, this is all.
Um, just, it just made sense. And it was a continuation of AA and, uh, it's been a beautiful journey since before I knew it. Like shortly after that, I can remember being in Nicaragua, like one morning, I almost cry thinking about it, but like just having surfed some of the most amazing waves of my life and driving back to like our house that we're staying at. And I looked to the left and there's a pastor that I'm behind me. There's a pastor and the guy that's back over there is one of my buddies.
And we're listening to praise music. And I'm like, how did this happen? But we surround ourselves, we attract what we are, iron sharpens iron. And so I feel like that journey, and that's kind of a microcosm of all that, but that's kind of what helped me kind of get to the table, so to speak, to sit at the same table as Lisa.
And how beautiful that your high school daughter invited you to church. I know, I know. Gosh, I just love that.
Yes, props to Leah. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so having gone through... Uh, Lisa, I mean, if people don't know your story, you, you went through, can you give us just the quickest? I mean, it's not quick, but yeah, just like a high level summary of what you went through.
Yeah. So I, um, was married almost 30 years and the last 10 of those 30 years were the 10 hardest years of my life. Um, and I was pretty desperate to keep my family together, but, um, You know, there were affairs, there was addiction.
And I, you know, here I am, like, trying so hard to raise these five kids and get them through some of the hardest seasons of their life. And I was never quite sure what was happening with my marriage. I knew that there were changes, but it was easy for me to, like, be Pollyanna almost and look past the red flags.
Because... I was like, no, we're that family. Like, we love Jesus.
Like, you know, I'm in full-time ministry and we go to church and we pray together. And, you know, we have a tradition, Monday night dinners, where, you know, we have friends of our kids from the community, like in our home and we're discipling them. And, you know, so I just, like, it was very easy for me to attribute the red flags that I was seeing. to changes like, oh, maybe it's because our oldest kids are graduating high school. And then, oh, maybe it's because now our daughters are starting to go to college or, you know, maybe it's just midlife crisis or maybe it's this or maybe it's that.
But eventually there was just undeniable proof that there was another woman and that things were not as they seemed. And And, you know, I didn't grow up with addictions, so I didn't really understand addictions, but I had to quickly learn. And so that started me on a journey of going to counseling and recognizing I couldn't work harder on another person than they were willing to work on themselves.
And it was going to be crucial for the sake of my safety and my sanity to draw some, you know, very... clear boundaries. And at the same time, I'm such a tenderhearted person that boundaries were super hard for me because I just kept thinking like one more retreat, like one more marriage retreat and things will turn around. Like one more book that we read together and things will turn around.
Like one more counseling intensive and things will turn around. And though there was a season that appeared that there would be a turnaround and, you know, I walked through a lot of forgiveness and we reconciled. Um, we renewed our vows and all of that. Um, but nine months later, things fell apart again. And, um, and in the end, I, I didn't want to walk away from my marriage.
And that, that phrase, like, I cannot be the one to walk away. That just kept me hanging on and hanging on and hanging on. But the reality is that there was already a death in that marriage.
And, um. And you can't repair trust that keeps getting broken. And so in the end, I didn't walk away.
But I did accept a reality. It was a reality I didn't want. It was a reality that I'd resisted a long time. But mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs.
And my kids deserved one healthy parent. And so in the end, I recognized that I was going to walk through a very, very hard, unwanted divorce. I had a friend talking to a woman who just found out her husband has been unfaithful.
And she said, do I stay? Do I go? Like, how do I know what to do?
And he used this analogy, and you kind of just said it in so many words, but he said, the house is on fire. And if he's trying to hand you a hose to help with the fire out, you stay. But if he's handing you gasoline to put more fuel on the fire to keep burning the house down, Like that's when you know it's over because yeah, you got to stay healthy and knowing that wisdom of how hard do you fight, which it's so nuanced. I mean, there are so many layers to that. It really is, you know, and I always wanted to leave room for God to move.
That was something that the Lord gave me in my quiet time, like leave room for me to move. That's why I didn't do anything fast. I just didn't.
Now, there were noble reasons for that and there were some unhealthy reasons for that. And I want to fully acknowledge that. But I think one of the best things that I did was I removed my hands. I removed my influence.
I removed myself, drew those boundaries, got a separation, which was very needed and, you know, had. legal counsel, had my counselor, had my pastor, had very godly, wise friends walking through it because you never want to walk through something like this alone. And I decided just to take my hands off and just see, just see like what decisions does he make when I'm, there's no promise of getting me back, but also I haven't filed for divorce yet. And that season of separation told me everything I needed to know. Sure.
So you both have had these hard journeys. They're two sides of the same coin. Even though your stories are different, there's still a lot of parallels.
What is it like to then put yourself out there in the dating world again after having gone through what you both went through? Well, I said, like, I will never date again. You said that. Oh, 100%.
And I meant it with every fiber of my being. Because I didn't want to attach my well-being and my integrity to somebody else's choices that I had no control over, but very much affected me, you know. And I had been in that place of fearing someone else's choices and what that would do to pull the rug out from underneath me, but also my kids.
And I just said, no, I will not. I made a really strong statement. To the point where my oldest daughter came to me one time and she said, can you please not say never? Like you taught us when you were raising us to not live in extremes.
And don't you love that? Like when your kids come back and like. I don't know what that's like. I have a three and one year old. They're not giving me any wisdom back.
Wait, Allie. It's coming. One day. But yeah, you're like, wait a minute.
No, I told you that. You let me live my life. Yeah.
Or in my case, like if they're reading one of my books, you know, they're like, hey, mom. Like, you actually said this in the book. Yes, yes.
You wrote about boundaries and also we need you to respect our boundaries. But my oldest daughter came to me and said, you know, I understand, mom, like you've been so hurt and there's no need to rush anything. But just don't say never.
And that was really good advice. But when I said it, I really did mean it. And so I didn't.
date. I took years off because my counselor helped me see that I needed to work on some things with me. I'm a great, classic, like codependent enabler, you know, and codependency is one of those words that people are like, wait, wait, what?
You know, well, here's how you know that you may struggle with codependency. You have a belly button. So to some extent, we all have codependency tendencies, right? But for me, it was more like this.
Like, I need you to be okay so I can be okay. So can we make you okay? Because I really want to feel okay.
But I need you to be okay. Okay? You know? And that was that dance, that dysfunctional dance that I had been caught in for so, so long.
And I knew that if I dated too quickly that I would attract someone who felt normal to me. But at that point, normal was dysfunctional. Interesting.
And so I did not want to jump right back into the same kind of dysfunctions that I had been living in for so long. And we have to really pay attention to that because it's sometimes hard for us to recognize our own dysfunctions. And when we've lived with those for so long and they start to feel normal, we will gravitate toward what feels normal.
So it was important for me to take a good amount of time off. And. and really work on me.
And that's what I did. So of course, the obvious question is like, wait a minute, like you had just gone through this relationship that addictions were such a detriment in that relationship. And now you're going to date someone who is like a recovering alcoholic, you know? But the thing that made me feel so safe, there were several things, but one of them is that He has such amazing accountability, such good accountability, real accountability on every side that I have a list of people that I can call if I even sense a hint.
I've never had to make that call and I pray I never will have to make that call. But I know exactly what to do. I know exactly who to call. And that makes me feel so safe. Also, I didn't really realize how crucial it would be.
For me to be with someone who never drinks a drop of alcohol. Interesting. I would have never known that that would be so super important.
But being with Chaz and, you know, he never. Drinks alcohol, not a drop. And that has been so extremely comforting to me.
And it just makes me feel very, very safe. And, you know, when someone has gotten sober and stayed sober for 10 years, again, there are no guarantees. But also it showed me he has what it takes to overcome an addiction. And then.
Layer that in with how passionate he is about still going to AA meetings, showing up at church, being very committed to, you know, like getting up and doing his daily readings and, you know, all of that. Again, no guarantees, but all of those things spoke such safety into the depths of my heart. Yeah. So you're still heavily involved with AA right here, 10 years later.
I went to a meeting last night that was just like, I always leave going, these guys are so amazing. You know, they're... They're my tribe and I don't go like I did, you know, like I used to 10 years ago, but it's certainly like a part of my life that I really love.
Yeah. Yeah. Is that something, I mean, for the person out there, maybe they struggle with addiction and they don't really know how to get out.
Yeah. What's like the first step that you would say to them? You know, and I would say when I, I went to a counselor at first, right? I'm like, okay, I'm going to go pay this woman and I'm going to go listen to her and she's going to get me sober. Like this will fix this.
Right. And then, so I go in and one of the first things she tells me is. You need to go to AA meetings. And this is probably 15, 20 years ago, the first time I ever really figured out I had a problem.
And I was like, there is no way I'm going to an AA meeting. Those dudes are crazy. I don't like group meetings. I don't like group none of this. And boy, it took a long time to get to the point where I had to walk in one of those doors.
But I would truly tell anybody that really needs help, that's the first place to go. What do you feel like is the number one thing you've learned about God through sobriety? He, you know, God is just, he's always there. He's always has been there in the deepest, darkest, like just hellish moments. Like God is there.
And I really feel like in those, there's been points in my life where I've dropped to my knees and asked for help. And there's just, yeah, God's always there. You know, it's always true. I see in Chaz that I respect so much. is this complete, humble surrender to the Lord.
And it, I mean, to walk into a room full of strangers and to acknowledge something that's hard for you to even acknowledge to yourself, like, hello, my name is Chaz and I'm an alcoholic. That's super hard, you know, but there is something in him. And I know that it was part of his healing journey.
That started this humble surrender and the way that he is humble before the Lord, the way he is surrendered to the Lord, and also the way he walks up to church. Like, okay, let me just explain something. He loves church. He wanted you to figure it out on your own, though. He couldn't push it too much, right?
Exactly. But the way he walks up to church. That is a man that loves Jesus. And you cannot fake that.
You know, some things you can fake, but you can't fake how you walk up to your church. I love that. Yeah, that's so true. No, I feel like, Chaz, I feel like a sentence I would use to describe you is you're just happy to be here. Like you're just, I love it.
The other night we're at an event at church and, you know, Lisa's got her line of women chatting with her. And you're over there holding like eight books, a coffee, a water bottle. A handwritten note someone handed you. And you're just so happy to do it. And that's, you were coming off of, y'all had just come home from Ephesus from a two week long trip and you're jet lagged and all the things.
But yeah, you just, the way you champion Lisa and it's just, it's really beautiful. And it's so cool to see this relationship and how y'all have come together, which doesn't mean every day is easy. So let's be honest because Oh no, with us?
Every day is so easy. What are you talking about? You got issues? No, you're right. With everything you've been through, what do you do on the days when some of those old things start to bubble up?
I mean, how do you walk through, like you still have the trauma that's happened in both of your lives. You have this beautiful partnership, this marriage, but yeah, it doesn't make it all go away. Well, I'll share a story that I actually have just written a book about this because I like to write about what I'm walking through.
And I think so many women have sort of been on this journey with me from my book, Uninvited, which was about rejection. So good. And then It's Not Supposed to Be This Way, Epic Disappointments in Life, Forgiving What You Can't Forget, Obviously Forgiveness, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes.
The title says it all, you know. And then this one's called I Want to Trust You, But I Don't. And trust, man, when you've had your trust shattered, it is really hard to want to ever take the risk of opening your heart up again. And all relationships have an element of risk to them, right?
So it was going to be really important in our journey for us. Both, but especially I think for me, because he had had a longer time of between the betrayal and then when we met. It was like a good 10 years, you know, from his first marriage. But for me, I still, even though it's been years, I still struggle with triggers. And so it was going to be really important for us to be open and honest, especially me being open and honest with him.
And. about things that trigger me. And there was one time he came in town to visit and I, in my mind, thought we were spending this whole day together.
And then he was going to leave later that afternoon. Well, I think he got called into work or there was something that happened. And so he just very abruptly announced like, okay, well, you know, I've got my stuff in the truck.
And, you know, I'm going to I got to head on back. And I watched and he turned and like wheeled his suitcase to go put the final thing in his truck. And there was something about that that evoked enormous fear in me.
And, you know, I I played it off at first. I was like, OK, OK. But the minute he walked out of the door, I just burst into tears.
And I was like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, this feels so scary. Why is he leaving early? You know, and it wasn't about that moment.
It wasn't even about Chaz. It was about many other moments in a previous relationship where I saw someone suddenly announce they were leaving, grab a suitcase, wheel it away from me. And then I found out that that meant enormous heartbreak for me. And so the situation with Chaz, there was nothing, there was no enormous heartbreak.
Like there was nothing that he was doing that was wrong. It was just too close to a scene that I had walked through before that meant something really awful. And that's really what a trigger is.
It's like all of a sudden past pain feels very present because you see something, you hear something, you encounter somebody. And that past pain just revisits you. And it's really, really hard. So I... As he was driving away, I can't remember if you sensed that I was sad and you called me or if I called you. I don't remember.
You probably called me. I think I called you. I could feel it. Yeah.
And I just said, like, hey, I'm just walking through a pretty significant trigger. Like, I'm bawling my eyes out, you know, saying, like, why did you have to leave so quickly? I just need to know, you know, what's going on.
And the way he reacted to me. told me everything, completely comforted me because instead of him saying, what? Like, I'm just like, I have to go back to work. Like, why are you giving me a hard time?
Making you feel like you overreacted or. Making me feel like I'm being dramatic or making me feel dumb or making me feel like I'm an inconvenience or, you know, that I'm like trying to get too much information from him. Instead of that, he was like, okay, tell me about that. Tell me more.
And he was so patient and he's so kind. And he said, what do you need? Do you need me to turn around and come back? Because I will.
And his reaction comforted me so much to where I was like, no, actually, I don't need you to turn around. And I think I'm good. And, you know, I processed that scenario later, even with a therapist that specializes in betrayal trauma. And I asked her, like, what was that about? And what do I do?
Like, how do I know in a moment of trigger? Is it discernment or is it my past trauma speaking? I can be confusing.
And I said, so do you have a formula? Like, I need something here. And she said, you investigate. You ask questions.
And based on how they react and give you the answers to those questions, we'll tell you everything you need to know. And I was like, that's why I was so comforted because of Chaz's reaction to it. And even now, like if I get scared or I get, you know, like triggered in some way, it's not necessarily what he's doing at all.
Because he really doesn't do anything that should elicit that kind of response in me. But it's just. Me still remembering little things that I thought were safe that then later I found out weren't safe in a previous relationship that we have to process through. But he is he is very kind and he's very patient. And I am super grateful for that.
What about for you, Chaz? Anything like what do you do? Does it ever creep up or you get the whispers of on hard days?
And what do you do? You know, we kind of laugh, like for the most part, we get along ridiculously well. Like we are just our mental, like we were very similar people. Like we laugh at a lot of things.
Like, I don't know, just something that happened the other day. We both have the same laundry bins and you separate the whites and the darks. And I came up to her the other day and I'm like, hey, you're not going to believe this. Like I get locked up sometimes and I can't put the whites and the whites and the blacks and the blacks.
And so all my stuff's on top. And he was like confessing to me. He's like, so I pile my clothes on. top of the laundry thing. And I...
busted out laughing because she's like you need to go look at mine i'm like struggling with the same thing stop so specific yeah white dark like there's too many like in between so i just started piling mine on top of the lid so we're similar you have similar so that didn't really answer your question but i just wanted to know that's a perfect illustration of yeah but it still doesn't mean we don't have our trials and tribulations and we still don't suffer from like our past you know like there's i think each of us when we get married, you know, way back in our, whenever it is the twenties or thirties, and you just have this ideal idea of what your life's supposed to look like forever. And it, when it's not that way, um, you struggle with that sometimes, but you know, it's, there's, you know, I think we both have learned a lot from our journey and, um, it's been a blessing to, to, to watch her share it with the women that she touches. And it's been fun to, you know, part of my journey.
is being in that AA and sharing with what I've been through with the men that have gone through what I've been. And to some extent, walking through what we've walked through in past relationships has made us that much more grateful for our relationship. And yeah, it's not perfect.
No relationship is perfect. But we are both so extremely grateful for one another. For sure. And... we both have such a deep respect for one another.
And I think that has made us extremely patient with one another in our relationship. And, um, we just don't sweat the small stuff. We just don't.
And I think also, you know, we're in our fifties. Um, I'm actually older than Chaz. I know. Right. So I'm 55 and he's 53. Right.
and so I think the stage of life that we're in we don't have some of the the day in and day out pressures of like having little kids at home with us all the time and schedules and school stuff and all of that um and so I think it's also given us you know this beautiful opportunity to bond over amazing things you know like And we both love to travel. And so we bond over that. We both love to go out to fun restaurants and we bond over that.
And so I just think it's a sweet season. I also really cannot emphasize enough that I think we would both say that walking through a divorce is not God's ideal. It was the most brutal thing on his heart and the most...
brutal thing on my heart. So I never want people in a difficult marriage to go, wow, maybe there's the answer. You know, maybe I need to get divorced and start over with someone else.
You know, please don't think that way. There's a big difference between having a difficult marriage, a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage. Those are very different things.
When you have a difficult marriage, all marriages can be difficult for sure. So that's... like a great reason to go to marriage conferences, read good books, get a good counselor involved, get in a small group, go to church together, you know, all of those things and work on the difficulties.
It's a whole other realm when you're in a destructive marriage. And that's a... That's a whole different battlefield.
But I think in the end, you know, we're just in this sweet season where I can finally see that God took what was meant for such evil truly, and he's using it for good. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, gratitude is a big one that when you've gone through something so hard and you come out on the other side, I talk about this. Even on this podcast, we've talked about friends who have gone through years of infertility.
And then when they have a baby, like the small stuff, they're actually just grateful. They're like, we prayed for eight years to have a crying baby in the middle of the night. Why would we be upset about that? And it just changes your heart posture a little bit. Is there anything else through the time that you all have been together now that something that God's taught you or something that you've learned that through this new relationship?
I would say for me, I have a really bad spiritual habit, so I'm just going to confession time, okay? And my bad spiritual habit is when I go through something really, really hard, I like to try to figure out the good a good God should do. So I like to look at my circumstance and think, okay. A good God should do this and this and this. And so I kind of run into my future and develop like this outcome that I become very attached to.
And then I want to hold God accountable to the good outcome that I've thought of. And God does not follow our script. And thank goodness he doesn't. And that has been a huge spiritual lesson to me.
If God would have followed the plan that I... begged him for, I would be in a really hard, desperate place now. And I am so grateful. I did not understand for so long.
I didn't understand why God was allowing some of the things he was allowing. I did not understand why it seemed that there was just hard thing after hard thing after hard thing. There are still many, many things I don't understand and that I wish would have been different. But I'm really grateful God didn't follow my plan because his plan really, really is the right way, the right timing.
And I'm so grateful for where I'm at today. It's been the most unexpected thing. You know, like I never thought that I would be a divorced woman. I never thought I would be dating in my 50s. I never thought that.
I would marry again, you know? But you would have this beautiful snow-covered wedding in France. Exactly.
And I never dreamed that I could be loved so well like Chaz loves me. Never dreamed it, but it was part of God's good plan. Yeah. What about for you, Chaz? What's God taught you?
I'll piggyback off that a little bit. In the AA Blue Book, there's... There's a portion in there that talks about how we as alcoholics love to control the play.
We like to control the characters and the play. And if I control this, if I get this person to do this and I have this person do this, and if I make this much money and if I spend this much time exercising and all these things, and really the minute that I figured out I don't control the play, God controls the play. And really the minute that I released all that and let that go.
And just started doing the next right thing. Yeah. One foot in front of the other.
Like that's when things started to work for me. I love it. Yeah. I love it.
Yeah. Our job is to be obedient to God. God's job is everything else.
Charles, are you going to write a book one day? You know, I tell Lisa I have to earn that right, you know, and definitely there would be some extremely entertaining chapters in it, you know. Well, you have a great in-house advisor.
She's written a couple, so I mean. Okay, but tell us about, so you told us a little bit about your new book. When does it come out? Okay, so it comes out October 8th.
And. And I really am excited about the subtitle is moving forward when you feel skeptical of others, unsure of what God will allow and doubtful of your own discernment. And the book really hits on all three of those things. And I think one of my favorite aspects of the book is that it is written from a very, very tender place, explaining what trust is and helping us navigate.
what to do when our trust gets broken. And trust basically is made up of two things. Trust is made up of safety and connection. In other words, Trust can only be built inside of a relationship. So that's connection.
But that connection needs to feel safe to both parties. And so that's kind of the underpinning fabric. What can happen when our trust gets broken is sometimes we start to prioritize safety so much that we refuse to take the necessary risk for relationships. And so our connection diminishes. So we can become.
rigid, isolated, and kind of like where I was. I was prioritizing safety so much that I was making statements like, I will never be in another relationship again. And whether you've had your trust broken in a friendship, in a family relationship, with your parents or with your kids or, you know, in a marriage or other kind of relationships, whatever it is, it is daunting. And so, of course, you have trust issues, right? Of course.
And that's not a bad word. It's just acknowledging what we need to work on, you know, the heartbreak that we have to deal with. So we can prioritize safety so high that we diminish connection.
Or I've seen where people take the opposite response, where they are so desperate to keep that relationship and keep that connection that they diminish their need for safety and they accept things that they shouldn't accept. They allow themselves to be treated in ways they shouldn't be treated. So the goal is not to prioritize safety and connection to such extremes, but rather to bring them both in balance. And trust is built time plus believable behavior.
So every time there's a rip in trust, there needs to be a repair and it's going to take time. And in that time, there has to be consistent, believable behavior by the one who broke. your trust.
And that's the only way to build a new track record. Wow. So good.
I feel like I've had so many conversations lately, which you're talking trust in horizontal relationships, but I'm sure you touch on trust in our vertical relationship with the Lord too. And I'm having so many conversations lately and it feels like so much in our life boils down to, do I trust God? Whether it's an idol, anger, I mean, you name it. It's just... Anything that you kind of feel like you're butting up against, it feels like more times than not, you can boil it down to, do I actually trust God?
Which, I mean, that goes all the way back to Genesis 3. Does Adam and Eve trust God? Well, no. The snake convinces them that they don't. That's right. And that he's not trustworthy.
And so then that's woven into us from that moment, just this doubt inside of us of, can I really trust God? Does he have what's best for me in mind? Yeah. It became a very important part of this book. Um, so two chapters in particular is, um, are how do I trust God when I don't understand what he allows and how do I trust God when the people who hurt me seem to get away with it?
Wow. And so, and I really dive deep into the honest wrestlings of the human heart, the honest wrestlings of my heart. And in the research that I was doing, here's an interesting fact. The word in the Bible for trust or trustworthiness is batah, B-A-T-A-H.
When that is directed toward God, it's always in a positive sense. When it's directed toward people or possessions or status, it's almost always in a negative sense. In other words, the promise of my book is not that I can help you develop a foolproof plan to never have your trust broken again. That's not the promise of the book. The promise of the book is that we serve an absolutely trustworthy God.
People, possessions and status and all of the other things, they will come and go in our life. And we're never to anchor our ultimate hope to any of those things. We can enjoy possessions. We can love people like crazy and we can work really hard and be good at our jobs.
We can do all of that. But ultimately, the only way to have the stability that the human heart is desperate for is to keep our hope attached to the only one who is truly trustworthy. So I ask this question at a lot of my speaking engagements now, and I'll throw it out there because I think it really hits at the heart of what I'm talking about. What would be different about your life if you really believed in the goodness of God? What would change about your life if you really believed that God is good, God is good to you, and God is good at being God?
That quote. 12 years ago. Wasn't that in Uninvited for the first time?
Okay. Yeah, I wrote that in a sticky note. It was on my mirror for probably five or six years.
And I mean, that is pretty much any time I come up against something hard, I'm like, God is good and he's good at being God. That's like a go-to phrase for me from, truly from Uninvited 12 years ago. And it's so relevant today.
It is. That is the question that we're all... need to wrestle with?
And I love that question on how you phrase it, because, yeah, gosh, what would life look like if we believed God was actually as good as He says He is? So you know what I started doing, Allie? I decided that I was going to do a personalized journal for each of my girls, and that I've written Bible studies for, you know, lots and lots of people out in the world, and I love doing that. But...
I wanted my girls to have something that I wrote just for them. And the focus of the journal, which is really like a Bible study, they can go in and put answers. They look up scriptures, there's questions and all of that, but it's, it's an entire book just for them.
And a big focus was filling it up with scriptures that talk about the goodness of God. So when I hit one of those places where I'm in the middle of a circumstance, I don't understand. or another heartbreak, or another disappointing situation with a relationship that I care very much about, I have learned if I will start turning to those verses about the goodness of God, and make Him bigger and bigger and more evident and more prominent in the forefront of my thoughts, then it helps me keep in perspective everything else.
So good. Well, thank you guys so much. I mean, You did not have to come on the Little Neighbors podcast, and you did, and you really are the real deal, Lisa, and it's been so fun getting to know you.
You have already impacted my life. We've been friends for like three months, and you've already just shared so much wisdom with me on how to navigate what God's calling me to do that I just am so, so thankful for you. So thank you guys for taking the time to come on here. And share, it just, it means so much. Well, you're so welcome.
And I was telling Chaz, we have this running joke about, okay, how many friends do you have now in Ponte Vedra Beach, Jacksonville area? You can count Allie now. I'm so excited.
I came home. I was like, I can add one more. So now I have like 2.5 friends. 2.5. And I'm so excited.
I don't want to know who the .5 is. Well, I have, well, the .5 is because I'm like. I we're at that stage where I'm like, I think she wants to be my friend.
Like I want to be her friend. So, you know, we're just still kicking the tires on that one. But you, Allie, are a solid friend. I have another friend named Marissa.
She's a solid friend. So I have 2.5 solid friends here. Well, I'm here for it.
I'm happy to be your friend, but I love y'all. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Allie. Neighbors is produced by Lager Creative and Taylor Minning. Music by Austin and Lindsay Adamak.
Artwork by Wesley Parsons. And motion graphics by Robbie Burns. He showed me brighter days, and mercies every more. He never shied away, to tell me that you're born.
How could I repay? I'm living to love life, living to love life. Ooh, yeah, I'm living to love life. Limit to love life You