[Music] hi there welcome to the Arkham sessions the only podcast dedicated to the psychological analysis of every single episode of Batman the Animated Series brought to you by Comics Alliance my name is Dr Andrea letamendi and I am joined by Brian Ward hi there Brian hey there how you doing I'm doing very well because it's a very good week for us this week is essentially Batman week it is essentially Batman week both officially and uh in my opinion based on the episode that we're watching I I can't imagine a better episode of the Arkham sessions than this one right here at least until next week but this week is going to be an awesome week this episode uh is um very uh psychologically relevant yes so I would say that it's a great Batman week is a great week to to dive into this episode and why is it Batman week uh July 23rd is has been claimed as uh the Batman day Yeah official Batman day DC DC Comics made it that it is well it is the 75th anniversary of Batman um you know the firstep yeah well why it but wait I know what you're thinking yeah the so the comics didn't come out in July so what's that about yeah the the Detective Comics that introduced Batman was in May of 1939 I believe so it would have been May ish uh to be perfectly honest DC chose July 23rd because it's the day that opens Comic-Con and uh you really got to milk all that media for all it's worth I'm not complaining I think it's great any opportunity to celebrate Batman is a good one for me yeah uh I know that you must be extremely excited about this particular episode as you mentioned because it's very psychologically relevant but it take it basically takes place in Arkham Asylum mhm you that in itself I would imagine would get you all like Super Hyper and ready to go and this is my world yeah essentially this is everything I think about everything I talk about um essentially this is probably this episode is one of the episodes that led me to be interested in Psychology that is not an exaggeration that's the truth Okay then if that's the case let's uh let's get to it because we are of course talking about dreams in darkness uh it was written by Judith and Garfield Reeves Stevens it's the first time that that the writers have ever chosen to go with narration there was no time left not for me not for him and not for Gotham City uh Batman opens up the episode he is in a straight jacket Dr Bartholomew uh as he introduces himself wondering if this is the same Dr Bartholomew as Dr Bartholomew wper from Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns uh of course he'd be going by like sort of a Dr Phil type moniker going by that first name if that's the case well this psychiatrist you're right goes by Dr Bartholomew yeah and he doesn't look anything like the uh The Dark Knight Returns Dr Bartholomew right but uh his his kind of his personality is very similar sort of the the kind of uh disregard for patient care um he's I wonder if it if it is a some kind of tribute or um you know some kind of connection I do definitely want to talk about his disregard for patient care when we open up Batman is in a straight jacket and we reveal that he's actually been there for a while the orderlies talk about the fact that uh the hallucinations are dying down uh and you know when Dr Bartholomew then approaches Batman who who seems very sympathetic to Batman's cause he he understands that Batman is an important character in Gotham Such a Pity really to think after all he's accomplished that he should end up here like this but when Batman then starts saying have you gotten a hold of Gordon have you gotten a hold of these of the authorities uh you then realize or or Bartholomew realizes that the hallucinations have not died down Batman is still going through a lot and he says you know we're just going to have to leave him in there longer right well and the thing is Dr Bartholomew actually thinks that Batman has hallucinations has has uh some kind of clinical disorder yeah whereas as the episode unfolds we learn that Batman has been exposed to some kind of fear toxin or uh you know something that is um creating the experience of huc hallucination so um there you know there's that sympathetic kind of uh caretaking nature that Dr Bartholomew clearly wants to help him but he's not really hearing what Batman is saying U now Batman's in his bats suit yeah in he's in a straight jacket in the bat suit so this isn't Bruce Wayne in a cad Arkham it's Batman right so it's very interesting that Dr Bartholomew has that level of of respect toward him and um you know legitimately thinks that he has some kind of mental disorder and is keeping him there um under observation to continue to monitor his symptoms and try to uncover you know what's going on psychologically with him let's talk about that we see that Batman was trying to stop someone from tampering with the water supply of the health spring spa uh at the pumping station and he is exposed to a gas and we find out that this of course was planned precisely on schedule the first major hallucination that we saw we saw that he was startled by Alfred in the Batcave but the first major hallucination that we saw was as he was driving to Arkham Asylum in the Batmobile and he suddenly thinks that uh Robin is in the [Music] road Robin that of course sends the Batmobile kening down the hill and it it crashes there at the Asylum uh presumably he he then goes unconscious because we start to see a couple of orderly sort of silhouette Running Scene we see smoke coming out of the Batmobile and then these two figures running towards the vehicle with the Arkham gate right behind it yeah and then we see him strapped to a gurnie Bartholomew actually stops the orderly from removing Batman's cowl and not yet his mask is at the root of his delusional fixation to take take it off might plunge him into a catatonic state do you leave the mask on do you take it off do you is it true that taking it off could plunge him you leave it on but for different reasons um now just like anybody coming in with any kind of garment or clothing or mask or accessory you don't REM you don't forcibly remove it unless of course you have to apply some kind of medical care that requires that um so you really would leave they would leave it on that's realistic I I wouldn't say at at now he's being admitted so I would say that there's no pressure in in you know absolutely having to have that mask off okay um over time of course there's no reason to have it on either either because he's been in the cell you know later we see he's been in the cell for some time so the reasoning to leave it on would simply be out of out of respect for the patient out of wanting them to willingly be able to take it off themselves out of some kind of uh level of respect for their identity and if now at this point we know that this that this uh psychiatrist understands who Batman is to some degree you know like if some random person with a mask came in I wouldn't necessarily be interested in forcibly removing the mask right um I would want to understand why they're wearing it and I would wonder if taking the mask off would create some kind of anxiety um anger you I don't know um and in this case he's he's concerned that by removing the mask it could put him into a catatonic State yeah I mean I I don't know where he gets that I think that is it be is it because he's a psychiatrist and really he just wants to give him drugs we do actually see him try to he does try to give him drugs he does try to give him drugs on a regular basis no I mean of course it makes the episode so much better and he can't know that he's Bruce Wayne so it makes sense but I think ultimately his reasoning that it would put him in a catatonic state that doesn't really make much clinical sense to me unless his theory about this person wearing the Batman costume that if indeed he's in this delusional State and must be in this costume and if the costume is removed and his delusional state is disrupted yeah I would agree that there would be you know a some some kind of anxiety related you know identity crisis you know something that would cause distress to the person would it put them in a catatonic State I don't know he clearly understands that Batman has been a hero for Gotham he actually says that it's a Pity that Batman has has come to this yeah but he tries to claim that the cowl is part of a delusional uh fixation so that almost suggests that as the psychiatrist he believes that Batman is not necessar neily a real hero but believes that he's a hero or believes that he's important for Gotham or something along those lines I don't know hearing those words sort of suggests to me that the doctor doesn't think he is uh really a hero and this actually reminds me of a comic book story which started out with Shadow and the uh shadow of the bat and uh the first four issues of that which I think were called the last Arkham uh involved Jeremiah Arkham who had of course uh sort of inherited Arkham Asylum from amadas Arkham and uh Jeremiah actually thought that Batman was messed up in the head yeah very different from Arkham Asylum a serious house on serious Earth which um is a story in which the Joker kind of pulls uh Batman into Arkham uh trying to tap into his psychosis or neurosis and um you know kind of play with his Batman's worst fears yeah and the last Arkham and this entire story reminds me a lot of the last Arkham in that it's about uh Batman going into Arkham now in the comic book series he and Gordon have worked out this this plan to get him committed into into Arkham it's sort of a 21 Jump streak kind of scenario where he he goes in to be an inmate but the whole time it's in order to un uh cover the series of really Grizzly brutal murders that are uh believed to have been committed by Victor zaz and um in the process zaz ends up uh sort of getting Jeremiah Arkham on his side and Arkham starts to think Batman really could be messed up and the entire thing ends in sort of the the sewers and kind of this cavernous uh you know underground very much like this episode um but I do really find myself fascinated by the way Batman is treated in this episode whenever they go to his door and they Slide the little shutter open uh to see inside Batman is always in deep Darkness MH would he be treated this way in this situation like what would be the reasoning for taking someone who has hallucinations is screaming things oh and by the way uh I know this is sort of going off on a separate tangent but you being a fan of this particular story of death in the family yeah might have caught when he was on the gurnie and he was screaming various things one of the things he said was Robin look out don't do it it's a TR the hallucinations were getting stronger I could have sworn I had really seen Robin in front of me but I couldn't tell them that I was raving incoherent look out Joker's got a bomb yeah now it's weird because if he was referencing a death in the family he was talking to Jason Todd not Dick Grayson who is who is the robin for those that don't know Jason Todd was killed or believed to be killed by a bomb set by The Joker yeah uh well after the Joker had blung him with a crowbar little things like that are constantly popping up in this episode and I I it's it's so mindblowing if you've not been able to see this episode you have to if you're a Batman fan because there's so much cool stuff in it and the narration I mean you mentioned the narration in the beginning the narration is unlike other episodes because you have that kind of VoiceOver walking us through what's going on um explaining how he ended up in the cell to begin with right um because as we're as the episode unfolds you realize um he's really held in like you said in isolation in this dark cell in a straight jacket yeah um so before I went off on this tangent though yeah I was asking the treatment of Batman you said that keeping the cowl on might actually be reasonable for a short period of time what about putting him in the straight jacket in a darkened cell what would be the reasoning for no that that makes no sense I mean I think realistically if we were really talking about a psychiatric facility MH we wouldn't have him in the straight jacket we wouldn't have him in a in isolation in a dark cell um we he would have a room he would have a bed he would have unless he has uh demonstrated some kind of um risk to himself or to someone else so threatening to harm himself threatening to harm other people or just having just a really bizarre dangerous sense of self or or mental state um one might call that grave disability um we may need to have them uh restrained in a certain way it's incredibly rare though to have somebody like that in a straight jacket and in fact straight jackets really aren't used um you know medically or psychiatrically what so you've just I you I you have just disillusioned everybody well I mean we know they've been used historically yeah in but today Straight Jackets aren't really used no I mean only by magicians and Escape only by magicians right and as we saw like you mentioned uh the straight jacket wasn't even uh accurately well there yeah there were a number of design flaws with that stray jacket for starters uh a stray jacket it should have uh a strap going from Back to Front yeah and so that you can't pull it off up over your over your head you've got to have something there and this particular straight jacket has no strap going back to front um but it's also one of those situations where didn't like we we saw him escape from a straight jacket once before and be a clown yeah and a tankk yeah I mean he was in Houdini's water torture chamber yeah and still got out of that he should have been able to get out of the straight jacket maybe I don't know there are trick Straight Jackets there are Escape artists some of the better like of course the better Escape artists are escaping from legit Straight Jackets but but there are straight jackets and it was at a sort of Carnival setting so maybe maybe Joker didn't have like a good one I don't know and and maybe Batman wasn't he was impaired like you know okay so speaking of being impaired yeah you you occasionally have facilities where they use um physical restraints but only because in a moment you know in that particular time um there's imminent danger the the patient is um you know threatening to hurt themselves or could pose a danger to other people and so you wouldn't just have someone sitting in a room with a straight jacket okay um and certainly we have to remember that this is Arkham Asylum this isn't um Gotham general hospital where they might have a psychiatric ward right this is this is where the criminally insane so to speak go to um you know where they're incarcerated so this is a facility for criminals and just a couple of weeks ago in fear of Victory we saw that the Joker had a bed scarecrow had a rocking chair uh pois I had a bed and a plant I mean they they let them keep their costumes they let them keep all of their accessories uh you know they were all behind glass he's being treated very poorly compared to how uh those those uh individual uals are treated um but the the doctor is interesting he he claims that it's all for for Batman's sake he says you know we need to keep you here longer we need to understand what's going on with you um you know we need to keep you stable so those are words that that imply that he's in a psychiatric emergency that he's um again that he's posing a threat to himself or that it's it would be dangerous to release him out you know into the community and and more observation is required and I know that that you were a big fan of this particular scene at one point in time Bartholomew asks him to sort of recount his story to to talk about uh what it is the the elaborate plan that Batman seems to think is going on Batman of course thinks that someone is tampering with the water supply yeah and that that person could could only be scarecrow and that he was coming to check up on on Scarecrow in Arkham Asylum just as he did with fear of Victory a couple weeks ago but THU says he just saw scarecrow earlier in the day mhm and also says I think this plot is just another delusion and deep down you believe so too otherwise why come to Arkham the one place where costumed delusional personalities can receive compassionate help yeah he's in the right place yeah he he firmly believes that Batman has problems well and he sees um we know that Batman's vehicle crashed you know right outside the facility and it could be that this was seen as as an as a voluntary hospitalization almost like we knew you were coming here um to admit yourself and you went into an episode and and you crashed you know so now you're being involuntarily held or this is involuntary hospitalization at this point because Batman has made it clear that it doesn't want to be there um but I I could see the psychiatrist reasoning that you know he was he was on his way here to be admitted and it's in our better clinical judgment to keep him here because we want to keep him safe and we want to ensure that he gets psychiatric care because he is you know he is paranoid he's talking about the entire city being um overtaken by some kind of toxin some kind of gas he's uttering you know he's making all these comments about the Joker and bombs and you know all these different people and and it it does even as we're as we're experiencing this episode we hear these things and it it does sound kind of out there it's he's sounding a bit crazy and we would probably react the same way right um we so talk about the invol like talk about uh in the real world a patient coming in like this and right here this is the real world this is the real world well talk about that talk about what it would be like for Batman for someone who comes in even a decorated vigilante such as Batman talk about this involuntary hold for one what what causes an involuntary hold how long can you keep a guy like Batman in a Cell legally for observation and for what purposes Etc mhm well all states have laws that permit involuntary psychiatric holds or Psychiatric hospitalizations so the one I'm referring to is specific to California because this is where I practice mhm but overall with some small you know differences all states allow what we call non-criminal holds okay meaning the hold is is specific to um to Commitment of mentally ill persons so people with uh impairments of judgment um impairments of reality testing folks again that I said before have pose a threat to either themselves or to other people okay you may have heard of something called 5150 yes Lind Lindsay Lohan and Amanda bind run a 5150 exactly so 5150 refers to a section of the California law um referring to psychiatric holds so while someone is under 5150 um they're essentially required to get evaluation and treatment you know at at some kind of um mental health facility and um you know they they're basically in held in custody for a period of up to 72 hours um you know that's that's been seen as enough time to stabilize a patient to undergo evaluation to make a determination about potential diagnosis to contact support you know that takes a few days what what is the evaluation process what would be you know what would go into making that assessment I think what Dr Bartholomew is doing isn't completely uncommon he's trying to assess for um you know Batman's state of mind and understanding if he's cognizant aware of where he is who he is so you have to kind of establish cognitive abilities um you know if you ever seen folks um you know in movies or TV series they'll they'll be asked to draw something or they'll be asked to to repeat three words or remember three words um they'll be asked to say who the president is like all these very important questions you and I can answer them you know pretty easily uh but those types of mental state assessments are to understand if if someone is um you know is either distressed or has certain impairments that are considered you know cognitive psychiatric uh emotion all those things so again that may take a couple of days to understand exactly what what it is someone is going through and experiencing Dr Bartholomew is trying to understand the nature of Batman's hallucinations and essentially he's trying to uh really understand Batman's insight as well last week we talked about Insight do you remember that yes so remember how the Mad Hatter um has moments where he actually believes he's the Mad Hatter right and his secretary is actually Alice right and you know his boss is the Queen of Hearts like he is completely immersed in this delusional World okay and we talked about how level of insight is you know referring to his ability to understand that these are delusions so it's almost like your ability to know about your disability okay so to speak so um I've worked with patients who have schizophrenia for instance and they would be able to tell me right now I'm seeing something or right now I'm hearing something and I know this is because of my illness and I would ask do you believe that this voice is really you know a person talking to you or do you believe that there really are people in that painting trying to communicate with you and someone with very good Insight would say you know no I understand that's a product of of my brain I understand that's my illness someone with very poor Insight would believe it you know they would be absolutely convinced that that that those things are actually happening to him or them so Dr Bartholomew is also getting at Insight I think he's established that these are delusions these are hallucinations that there is some break from reality and Batman is he wouldn't be held there is is he delusional like is he actually having delusions because it seems like he's having a lot of hallucination yeah but everything he is saying to Bartholomew is correct right Dr Bartholomew is questioning whether those experiences are actually real he thinks that Batman has this delusion that you know the scarecrow has escaped from Arkham that he's um you know going to uh you know use this toxin to make everybody in Gotham City go crazy I mean it it really does sound very outlandish and um you think by now anytime Batman says hey this huge thing is going to go down I would believe it but you know this doctor is seeing this as a delusion and it does sound it actually sounds very paranoid so you've heard of um paranoid schizophrenia um this you know there's a category called paranoid delusions for a reason um many folks who experience schizophrenia have those types of of delusions thoughts that um people are after you or that the government's going to get you or that you know there's this big conspiracy those types of um paranoid symptoms when you've got someone presenting with these paranoid symptoms rapid speech these comments about all these different characters and people that are coming out to get him um having just crashed his car like all of these having seen Robin in the middle of the street like all of these things does not they don't look good I think the psychiatrist uh has good reason to keep him there uh but we don't need him in the straight jacket we don't need need him in a dark room you know that that part of this story is a bit extreme so let's talk about some of Batman's hallucinations uh this episode does a fantastic job of showing some just nightmarish visions and images at one point we see that Batman is um walking through the door of his cell into a very kind of hellish looking version of Crime Alley it's got the orange Hue to it it's it seems sort of hot and you know and then and then becomes Crime Alley where he sees Thomas and Martha Wayne and uh they begin walking toward a tunnel and Batman is running but running in slow motion he can never catch up to them and he is being held back and they walk into the tunnel and suddenly uh the world around him sort of crumbles and we see a beautiful image of the tunnel actually having this sort of lava like uh red stuff coming out of it and we start to notice that the tunnel is becoming the barrel of a of a gun and uh one could say that that lava is that hot red liquid could have been the blood of the way pouring out as we know that Thomas and Martha were shot to death in in Crime Alley the gun [ __ ] back and it fires and we see that Batman then wakes up in this burst of light and and you know Bartholomew and his two and his two uh orderlies are once again observing this and uh basically I'm I'm happy that Batman who wakes up in the fetal position in his cell uh didn't go and and say something like Mom Dad Thomas and Martha Wayne I'm it's your son little Bruce like um I'm glad that he didn't uh go spouting off you know family secrets like that while they're observing oh I see yes um that would have been bad yeah uh but also how now I'm just realizing you know does this chart just say Batman yeah apparently it's just Batman and there's no there's no history what about an emergency contact how who are they going to you know like all of this is It's just interesting patient care yeah uh you know and and so it's one of those situations where I I think this episode handles these hallucinations wonderfully because we as the audience are equally terrified by what we see or at least distraught by what we see yeah it's really well done and and I think you know as as we see especially that scene um and how he reacts to it we realize that he he truly believes he's in the experience which they don't make it clear whether they're nightmares or whether they're hallucinations because um you can have nightmares that are very Vivid okay and you can wake up from them um you can have hallucinations that are very Vivid and you believe that you're in that situation typically hallucinations um whether they're auditory or visual take place within your environment so you know someone would be sitting in a room and they'd be hearing additional voices of people not in that room or they would see figures persons or things in the room so when Batman starts out in his own cell and walks out of it the cell part could actually be pretty accurate right the rest of that while he's walking through Crime Alley and and seeing his parents you know that looks more like a nightmare okay rather rather than hallucination and you're right he when we see him in his cell he it's possible he wakes up from this um nonetheless it's very disturbing he he was living that as if he was you know it's it was basically a very Vivid nightmare or or flashback or hallucination it's unclear um and he's in such distress that he's just curled up on on the floor in a little ball and um yeah it's a it's gripping it's a really moving moment that's when Bartholomew and his two orderlies come in to admit that they may have been wrong that the scarecrow has in fact escaped from Arkham Asylum and uh that's when Batman says that he needs to find him he needs to find where the Arkham water supply is coming from uh and barthol tells him that that comes from the Arkham Caverns below the Asylum um and Batman insists on going to find uh the Scarecrow however the only way to get there of course is to to descend these steep dark yeah you know stairs into minds of Moria kind of uh staircase leading down into the caverns but Bartholomew won't let him in your condition I can't allow that you're staying here on the one hand Dr Bartholomew is accurate in saying you're in no state to to leave the facility and and especially no state to uh you know get into some kind of life-threatening battle with with with this villain with a very dangerous person so I would agree that that's that's not something that I would do on the other hand where's the realization that Batman was correct that the city is in Peril that there's this huge risk and I would see that Batman may be the only person who can truly protect everybody well he does say Let The Authority let the police handle those yeah you know he admits that Batman was right but he says let the police uh take care of it you need rest you need to to heal from you know well and he's actually right because now the doctor knows that Batman was telling the truth meaning he was exposed to this fear induc fear inducing uh hallucination creating toxin so to keep him there and and to understand that he's still you know under the effects of this toxin again it makes sense yeah we find out after this scene that um in in a scene that reminds me very much of Batman Begins that the grand scheme of the scarecrows is to contaminate Gotham City's water supply with uh this fear toxin that will induce Mass hysteria and he's not doing it for revenge like he was last time he's not doing it out of this uh this need to just kind of watch Gotham go into madness he is almost gone back into his state of experimentation and observation as a scientist because he actually says the opportunities to study the nature of fear will be unparalleled it's time for the greatest controlled experiment in Mass Madness to finally begin they flip a switch and the countdown goes to 5 minutes now why you need a countdown to inject the the toxin into the water supply I don't know it's an experiment it has to be measured it has to be standardized you start it at 5 minutes you flip the switch it makes sense to me but but now you've got the Scarecrow going into experimentation mode again all he wants to do is observe yeah this Mass Madness and you know I he's maybe I'm not I'm not allowed to say it necessarily but it seems to me he's sort of crazy for wanting to do it but he's got science on his brain like he he wants to see what it's like when entire city goes goes you know mad with fear yeah he's he's back to his uh his uh sciencey it's like he's that curious yeah scientist again and and he wants to to to better explain and understand um the the fear reaction what's interesting is uh when so when we learn more about Batman's exposure to the toxin we uh again this is kind of in the in the telling when he tells his story in the hospital we learned that he had visited the man who was first exposed to the toxin right uh that man had been taken to the hospital he was under observation in a medical facility and Batman is there um shortly after being exposed himself uh and and opens the chart and and finds that the uh the chart said he was hallucinating wildly due to a massive fear reaction in the amydala of his brain um okay so that sounds like a bunch of sciencey yeny uh sort of stuff bunch of big words I don't necessarily understand is this the case of writers doing research or is this the case of writers creating scenarios that kids won't understand uh it's actually quite true really uh no the amydala is a real part of the brain and it's um one of the components of the brain that is responsible for fear management so it it actually makes a lot of sense but there are some more recent now this is in the 90s right okay there's more recent research from the early 2000s that shows a link between schizophrenia and areas of the brain including the amydala so schizophrenia of course one of the chief symptoms you said being hallucinations right right I said schizophrenia um of course no one has mentioned that in this episode of um btas but hallucinations are a core component of schizophrenia so interestingly there's been some research uh again in the last 15 years or so that has linked the area of the brain um actually it's called the HAC hippocampal amydala complex okay um and that part of the brain has been linked to the path of physiology of schizophrenia and suggests an association between that structure and hallucinations so my mind has just been blown are you suggesting and you've all heard it here first folks if this is actually what Dr letamendi is suggesting are you suggesting that the Scarecrow is using his fear toxin to induce schizophrenia yeah essentially that's what he's doing wow so it's not just random hallucinations like he is actually yes specifically hallucinations related to fear and paranoia and again you know those paranoid symptoms could be a component or a symptom of of schizophrenia so want me to blow your mind again yes I will with this research from the American Journal of Psychiatry which found that there is a connection between paranoid cognition and the amydala meaning what meaning not only are there neuroimaging and brain studies showing a connection between the amydala as Batman mentioned in this episode and schizophrenia there's a connection between this part of the brain and paranoid symptoms of schizophrenia so again to put in plain non Vulcan English the part of the brain that Batman mentions is associated with those paranoid types of symptoms those fears so so Jonathan crane might actually be on to something he might be studying the links by imprisoning him you may have prevented uh cuz like you said in 1993 he was working on this research and it wasn't until the early 2000s that anyone started publishing studies it could have been that 10 years earlier Jonathan crane could have been like see I told you there were links to the amydala and paranoid schizophrenia but he was right all along yeah he's pretty much a genius I think so too you know why cuz he's Ginger so I will put the studies up on uh on our site so that folks can yeah cuz I definitely want to read more about that uh if you're interested in reading it you should definitely check it out uh the links are below uh of course Batman ends up escaping from Arkham Asylum as you would expect him to he uses an axe to cut off the straight jacket I'm not sure how he got the axe off of the hook to begin with he may have like kicked it and then you know pushed it along with his foot or something but he certainly didn't pick it up and then he positioned it and he uh used it to cut the straight jacket off mhm and uh then uh something that I thought was weird you've got a a cape that you know has been used to um uh go through fire uh in some stories bullets have had a hard time sort of piercing in some cases they they say that it's like a Kevlar type material and yet Arkham Asylum was shooting darts at him uh sedative darts one Dart rips straight through the C the cape and goes into another guard knocking that guard out like that's a very flimsy cape tonight like it's you know it's got a little or it hit the sweet spot it hit the it hit the one spot of the cap that wasn't coated in some sort of teon maybe that's his special Arkham Asylum Cape only used for when he's um held captive uh in in naram Asylum I don't know that I would use that Cape because now you realize it doesn't actually stop anything uh he goes down into the caverns and uh ends up having more hallucinations the best more more nightmare marish uh he sees a rat turn into the Joker mhm uh he sees uh the a giant version of the penguin come up out of the ground with a tiny little umbrella with a tiny little umbrella and he's beating the the top of the cave sort of caving things in um and probably the creepiest moment of the Hallucination is the Penguin's head splitting apart and too faace coming out of it yeah he's flipping the coin and then he ends up throwing the coin in turns into like a razor like a saw blade sort of thing coming after uh Batman um it it is really one of the most disturbing absolutely too faace then melts and becomes poison ivy which doesn't make sense cuz I thought he would melt and become maybe clay face or something like that yeah but melts and becomes poison ivy uh uh then from behind poison ivy we see uh Robin and Alfred come along and they refuse to help Batman it's too late for that Bruce you've lived in darkness too long yes do come and long Master Bru it's time to go home and then Batman Falls uh through the the cavernous abyss and uh ends up going into the scarecrow's mouth and and scarecrow says that the great Batman scared out of his mind how does it feel Batman only wakens when a bat actually flies overhead and a real bat real bat and and he sort of comes back to long enough to um end up fighting guards and uh uh stopping the Scarecrow from launching his toxin into the water supply MH which is a a weird sort of fight because like I said before it's a big machine and there's a countdown it started at 5 minutes by the time Batman gets to it and sort of stops it he stops it at a minute 45 fool did you really think I wouldn't have backup controls a scarecrow sort of had everything in mind here he thought yeah there's a strong possibility that Batman's going to come down here and he's going to he's going to flip the switch he got to have a backup and the backup is just like uh below you know drops down near the the first yeah you know it opens up a panel flips the switch now the the timer magically goes from a minute 45 to 14 seconds like apparently it's in cartoon time yeah it is in cartoon time uh and Batman of course has to conquer his own fear in order to stop the countdown that countdown uh is stopped the machine is broken and it actually causes a great explosion which uh sort of collapses the Cave the cavern around them and um it's a it's a fun scene uh and like I said it does remind me of of one of those battles with the Victor zaz in uh the last Arkham and um earlier on Batman was offered an antidote he was told that he would actually have to go to sleep for two days for the antidote to to fully work and Batman not going to happen can't let that happen glad it didn't because within those two days is even going mad he was able to stop the Scarecrow um but Alfred administers the antidote one could think that this is all a par for the course but I find it a particularly deep insight into Bruce Wayne and Batman in that the doctor that tells him you've got this problem and I've got an antidote and I could give it to you is not necessarily trusted enough to be the person to administer it later instead it happens in the Batcave and Alfred is the one who does it and Bruce actually says thanks Alfred it's good to know I'm safe here H so in this area is where he is most comfortable and uh through Alfred is where he would rather get the antidote I I really like that scene because we see Bruce you know finally receiving his treatment um you know safely in in his what we would consider kind of the the back cave version of a hospital bed yeah and um but what's interesting is he says it's good to know I'm safe here Alfred walks away goes up the elevator and it pans out to show that Bruce is alone in the back cave in the darkness and bed just sort of bed with bats kind of flying around one bat lands on a perch and the entire scene is sort of engulfed in this in the shadow of a bat which by the way I think is probably their little homage to Batman shadow of the bat which is where the last Arkham is the first four issues so uh maybe I'm wrong but it seemed a little on the nose so h I can't shake the parallel between this story and a rather popular very well-known study called on being sane in insane places tell me you've heard of the study before not only have I heard it I wrote I've never heard of it you've probably read did you take psych 101 did it's one of those research studies you know back in uh in the early 70s late 60s that um is you know read about for decades and decades so okay I don't know that I heard it I don't know that I was introduced to it through that title what was the title of it again the title is on being sane in insane places that is the name of the research article that's how awesome Psychology was uh decades ago um it's it's now called The rosenhan Experiment the rosenhan experiment was uh as I said a very famous well-known experiment that was done in the late 60s early 70s to essentially kind of prove a point that psychiatrists really don't know sane from insane that basically the do tell I want want to hear about this it was run by Dr David rosenhan who was a psychologist oh of course it was because you know it was it's the whole like psychologists versus psychiatrists sort of that like oh psychiatrists don't know what they're doing you should come to us we're the psychologist now you laugh but it kind of was true that he felt as though there wasn't um a really sophisticated diagnostic system that was reliable that was standardized now we did have at that time the DSM which I refer to the DI diagnostic B book yes our our big book of mental mental disorders your toome now that manual has gone through several revisions since then um but the you're actually pretty accurate that there is this um there was this accusation that the Psychiatry field wasn't um you know providing good practice wasn't providing appropriate mental health care so when people for for people who don't know the difference because I don't know that we've ever necessarily discussed this before the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist a lot of people understand that a psychiatrist is an MD yeah who prescribes medication but a psychologist is a PhD you don't prescribe medication but but a lot of times people think that psychiatrists are the ones that you spend a full hour with sitting on a couch you know telling talking about your mother but really that's more of a psychologist's like what is the difference there well it it really depends on on the care because psychiatrists and psychologists can provide um what we call like talk therapy or Psychotherapy and that may include up to an hour or more of sitting in an office uh talking to a psychiatrist or psychologist a psychiatrist can administer medication and typically if you receive medication you also need to talk a little bit about how that's going you know are there side effects am I getting better am I getting worse how am I feeling um so par but a a typical session for psychiatrist typically not a full hour because um you know their role is essentially to provide uh the psychiatric medication and and to do brief evaluations to get updates and you know they have training in in psychotherapy but that's traditionally that's that's not their main role it is really like a medical doctor you go in they say you know how is that medication working for you you tell them it's working well or not they they up the dose or lower the dose or change the medication or whatever and then send you on your way sure that's not to say that they can't or won't provide more psychotherapy but um it I I don't know that many choose to because um they're ble to see more patients and provide more care to more patients uh you know if if they can churn you out well I don't you know that's really not it's insensitive that's really not the efforts the efforts are to provide psychiatric care um medication medication management and referral really to a clinical psychologist or to a master's level therapist to provide more of the psychosocial interventions which I would recommend you know you should have a an hour or more a week sometimes something that's more intensive to really handle everything that's going on so 20 minutes a month really you know that's that that may not be enough yeah um and for other folks 20 minutes a month getting their medication is perfectly fine so there there's a lot of variables that are that that impact that affect whether you see a psychiatrist or psychologist and how long you might see them and how many times per month you might see them but if you wanted to start like a little Turf War you would say you would start a an experiment yes that said that psychiatrists didn't know what they were doing especially in the' 60s where and things were just you know and how would that end up going well okay so back to Dr rosenhamer psychologically healthy individuals who they were plants they were plants right he sent he was like it's like a sting operation yes he sent them he sent three women and five men um to pretend as if they had auditory hallucinations um as you know in order to gain admission to psychiatric hospitals across the country so it turned out that these um you know these folks who were otherwise healthy um lied they were hearing things and that they thought something was going on with them you know in their brain so they kind of had the the same script several similar things to say and um wouldn't that be great if they were actually hearing the same things like they were like oh my God I just had a patient earlier that said that said that they needed to pick up more bread too think Dr crane think big right so he sent them to different facilities across the US not the same facility um so they were all admitted and they were all diagnosed with psychiatric disorders after admission as per the protocol this experiment they then informed staff and psychiatrist that they no longer heard the voices and they essentially stopped having the symptoms however despite looking as if they had been in remission like they had gotten better they were not released they were held and actually on average they were held up to 20 days what um one one I think stayed a week and the longest day was up to two months wow in this in a facility so what's interesting is is that they were then uh treated as if they had um you know once they were labeled with their diagnosis and most of the diagnoses they were given were were psychotic in nature so schizophrenia was like one of the most common things they were given naturally because they were presenting with supposed hallucinations um they were sort of monitored in a way that continued to pathologize them so naturally because they're in a study and they're kind of like taking notes um one particular participant mentioned that as he was taking notes and jotting down some things um a staff member of the of the unit was you know sort of perceiving that as one of his symptoms that he was um you know in a frenzy that he was in this in in his psychotic episode um being paranoid and jotting things down so what we might consider normal behavior was seen as pathological because they were were in this role they were under this label of of having a mental disorder wow one of the findings from the study is that experience of being pathologized and almost um characterizing that expectation characterizing that role now we talked before about the Stanford Prison Experiment where people you know really played out their role this was one of those situations too where because they were perceived and treated and really dehumanized um some of these participants began to wonder if they really were insane and they Ed that word in the article that's why I'm using the word sane and insane sure so they really started to buy into it they started to think that maybe there was a problem yeah absolutely and in fact when this study was um published in uh in the Journal of science it criticized the reliability of psychiatric care and specifically psychiatric the psychiatric diagnostic system um it it claimed that uh that mental Healthcare was disempowering and demeaning to to patients and it just created this huge explosion and attention to um to Mental Health Care it really again it's it was a groundbreaking study so we can say that uh definitively correct I hope things have changed since then absolutely uh the the DSM is has undergone several iterations and uh relies more on science-based work uh really to to better capture and characterize mental health diagnoses um we're also moving toward this has been happening for a longer period of time and and I I would credit this study for pushing Us in this direction to move away from labels um and creating care spe so specific to those labels just like in inpatient psychiatric facilities which is what we've been talking about um outpatient mental health or Comm mental health we still use diagnostic categories but we really really pay attention to the presenting symptoms the behaviors that need attention you know we we aren't simply just working from diagnosis because we know they're not as reliable as really understanding and seeing the person in front of you and what they're telling you they're distressed about so I wonder if this episode is some kind of commentary on mental health care because you mentioned the you know the reference to Dr Bartholomew we see Batman kind of being a bit I wouldn't say abused but um somewhat you know he's held there against his will he's um dehumanized and as this Animated Series has sort of played out uh just like in the Tim Burton films we don't exactly know what time period this this uh animated series is in in our timeline so uh it is possible that maybe this was done pre-60s you know where where people may have been treated a little differently or something like that yeah that it may have been referencing a period of time where um patient care was um you know was not respectful toward patients and um and I think it I mean I can't help but think about that parallel and think about how as many times as Batman was saying you have to listen to me were in danger I'm not you know I'm not crazy essentially he was being um silenced there's even one point where Batman gets defensive and says I hope I'm not disturbing you isn't that why I'm here because I'm disturbed and he's trying to he's trying to assert his his sense of of you know his his identity and his sense of um the sense of justice as essentially that I'm trying to say something and I'm not being heard at the end of the episode when Batman tells Alfred that he finally feels safe and it's a strange a strange scene at least for me to watch because again he's in this cold dark cave by himself um it's kind of like saying I I'm I'm sane in an insane place I mean that's that's really what I was reminded of on on being sane in an insane Place wow you know what I got from this episode what Jonathan crane Ginger one of the orderly Ginger but I'm not going to hold that against him he was just doing his job poison ivy Ginger MH even though she was just a hallucination MH but forget all those I'm going to let those go okay the real crime against gingers whatever the sedative is that Bartholomew puts in the uh syringe and is about to inject Batman with in order to shut him down it's orange I've never seen I've never seen any kind of medication like this so brightly carrot orange oh really it's orange is it like Fanta it's it is it's just like Fanta it is like their hatred for gingers goes so far as even the serum to shut Batman down is orange I don't know I didn't notice this you wouldn't you know why you're not a ginger I'm sorry so what I got from this episode yes Psychiatry bad they hate gingers although they sometimes employ one to be their muscle I I disagree well we always disagree on a few things but I think this was meant to raise awareness about um the treatment of of folks with mental health problems and and that we should absolutely listen I'll give you that what's being said I know I know it's it's maybe a little too deep I'll let you have that one so this week we actually uh went to you the listeners and asked for your questions uh and we ended up getting a really good one emailed to us uh from Scott mclen he says Dear the Arkham sessions this is a question uh this question is really directed toward Dr letamendi um I'm curious about your thoughts of Dr Bartholomew's approach in this episode as a mental health care professional did he act in the most professional manner we sort of discussed that in some ways he did and in some ways he didn't um but were his actions in the best interests of the patient uh we think that it could have been until he found out um it seemed odd to me about his keeping Batman in The Dark while he was locked up in his cell we kind of touched on that as well um this is the part that I think is uh the really good part of his question and that Dr Bartholomew did not consult other professionals on this case especially when Batman seemed Lucid enough to specifically Ally mention Commissioner Gordon or Dr Woo the woman who offered to administer the antidote before yeah what are your thoughts as a mental health care professional yourself now it's true he said did you reach out to Dr W did you reach out to Commissioner Gordon and Bartholomew didn't he he had said no I'm going to kind of ignore all of this I know you're a vigilante I know that you've been right in the past I'm not going to consult with the people who could validate your concerns MH that's not good you know if if you're aware that a patient has recently been seen at um you know at at the local Medical Care Facility um has had involvement with police enforcement I mean you would you would want all of this information it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't access those folks and have consultation with him and Dr Ru would have just been able to explain this immediately that he was to this toxin she has the antidote she can give it to uh to Dr Bartholomew we'd be done with this yeah but um you know he chose not to do that and we wouldn't consider it we would consider it poor practice I don't know that it it would be I mean it certainly is is bordering unethical because he's been told look I've seen these other practitioners you really need to talk to them and so it's in everyone's best interest that he does and Dr Bartholomew dro the ball there the other thing I noticed is that Dr Bartholomew uh appears to specialize in costumed um you know delusional personality disorders or whatever he calls them absolutely so I think he thinks he's like you know the uh the expert in in handling folks that that admit um that are are encountered at Arkham Asylum and happen to be wearing a costume so he may feel like well this is you know this is my in my wheelhouse and and I know exactly how to handle this and this guy's going to be here along with with uh the Joker and Poison Ivy and these other folks I'm going to blame Dr Bartholomew for all of the problems of Arkham Asylum because as we have established in this particular episode because if you remember during fear Victory I questioned why someone would allow the Scarecrow to keep his costume why someone would allow poison ivy to have a plant why someone would allow uh Harvey to have his coin or for the Joker to have his play cards and as we've established in this episode Dr Bartholomew allows Batman to keep the cowl and his costume just as all the other Arch villains they were all allowed to keep their costumes none of them are in traditional uh prison Garb like we see Joker in at the beginning of Christmas with the joker you know using the jumpsuit on that um and he is convinced that no one can escape Escape despite the fact that in every episode someone has escaped from either Arkham Asylum I mean just two weeks ago in fear of Victory scarecrow escaped yeah and nearly took out an entire football stadium full of people and and uh and now he does it again you know Bartholomew really I think is the problem here he specializes in costumed delusional personalities however maybe he kind of allows them to escape to preserve their delusional identity like it's very important for them to enact these crimes you know what I think Dr Bartholomew may be just as delusional as his delusional costumed personalities I I think that's accurate um Scott you are actually going to get a prize woohoo yay um courtesy of Warner Brothers tours who handled the Fantastic VIP tours over at Warner Brothers Studio studios here in Hollywood California um Burbank beautiful downtown Burbank um you are going to get a copy of DC Comics Batman number one from Scott Snyder Greg kulo it's the first issue that introduces the new 52 uh this was uh an issue done a couple years ago um and you might think you have this copy but unless you've been to Warner Brothers Studios you do not have this copy why is that this is an exclusive it's a special edition um I look at it like a a Warner Brothers variant cover yeah it's totally a Warner Brothers variant cover it actually says Warner Brothers Studios VIP Studio Tour presents the Batman exhibit Batman 75 it's got the logo there in the in the corner you can only get this variant if you are um you can't even get it if you're just visiting you have to be you have to be on the VIP Studio Tour yeah yeah so uh you have got a copy of this comic and uh congratulations and you guys should also stay tuned and submit your questions for future episodes because there could be other prizes lined up for you guys we are at ComicCon this week so we are going to ComicCon swag city and that could mean prizes for you so uh be sure to watch ahead and then uh submit your questions to us via Twitter we are at Arkham sessions you can also send us emails like Scott did at Arkham sessions gmail.com you can also email Drea underthe mask online.com Dre where can people find you on Twitter they can find me on Twitter at Arkham Asylum Doc and I'm at BW 028 I think that about wraps everything up don't you uh no not at all oh you my friend have a new podcast and the first episode uh has just been released so tell us a little a little bit about that that's true I do have a new podcast it's called Comics assembled and uh I am doing a podcast with comic uh Creator illustrator writer Tom Zer you might know him from Love and capes or you might know him from the My Little Pony micro series Comics uh from IDW he is a great friend um a wonderful Storyteller he has been a writer a letterer a an illustrator uh in the comics industry for quite some time we talk about everything occasionally we might hit on uh comic news but really the podcast itself is about the comics industry from the perspective of a Comics professional so if you're interested in comics if you're interested what it's what it's like to be a Comics Pro whether it's going to conventions or uh you know where you come up with stories to to write or uh you know getting a franchise gig or illustrating this is the podcast for you you can find it over at 5x5 dotv uh and uh look up Comics assembled fun yeah I'm very excited should be uh you know roughly once a week or so um and then uh you this can't all be about me you've got like some sort of article that was just published yes so as if folks can't get enough of the psych ological analysis of Batman I was interviewed by boing boing along with Jim Lee and Dr will Brooker about the basically the endurance and resiliency of Batman over the last 75 years he has been at it for a long time he has you'd think he would uh figure it out cleaned up Gotham by now oh I see you're coming over to my side no he's it's a great article and you should absolutely check it out over at BO bo.com yeah I'll set up the link folks can find it link will be right below so check that out and of course we would be remiss if we didn't discuss the fact that this week is Comic-Con week I know we gave you our schedule last week um but go and check out underthe mask online.com you will find Drea's schedule she is on five count them five panels at Comic-Con this week so go check that out under themask online.com find her uh and I'm on too you won't find mine on under themask online.com no but you are in the schedule so folks can find you very easily absolutely Friday night 7:00 23abc it's pretty easy uh Shout factory Scream Factory shout kids uh panel and then I will be moderating your psychology of Star Trek versus Star Wars that is Saturday night 8:30 p.m. Comic-Con after hours after hours after dark it's where all the magic happens so come find us it'll be a fun week if you come by please say Hello I'd love to chat with folks about the show once again thanks to Comics Alliance for presenting our podcast on their site of course I'm sure that they would love to hear your thoughts on we love to hear it they love to hear it everybody loves to hear comments as long as they're good keep them good if you got nothing nice to say don't say anything else zip it I like comments good or bad it means people are listening that's true so anyway uh until next week I am Brian Ward I'm Dr Andrea letamendi and we are the Arkham sessions [Music]