Discussion on Article 370 and Kashmiri Identity

The abrogation of the article 370 and what it means to Kashmiriyat. Come, without taking any time, I will... I would like to invite the panelists to the stage. Please keep clapping. Please keep clapping. Our beat, Mr. Gauhar Gilani, Mr. Anand Ratan, Syed Salah Chishti, Vivek Agnihotri, and this session is moderated by Thank you. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Since the introductions of all our panelists, I'd like to welcome all our panelists. It has already happened. We have to do a hard stop at 6.45, so I'm going to rush this session through. What I'm going to do is, starting from the left, I'm going to start off with everybody to just give a quick one and a half to two minute opening remark. Chishti sahab. Greetings of peace. In the panel where we are talking about Kashmiriyat, Kashmir and its culture, when we talk about it, we should keep this in mind. We have to have this understanding in our mind that we are not talking about Kashmir for the last 70 years, but of a thousand years of legacy and Kashmir tradition that we are talking about. And when we look at the spiritual life of Kashmiris, the reflections that we get to see, whether it is culture, or language, or language, or style, whether it is Shaivite traditions or Sufi traditions, whether it is a church, a temple, a mosque, how for centuries the soul of India is seen, known and felt. When the people of Kashmir speak in their language, they say that they are from Ajmer Dargah. When Kashmiris come there, when it snows, the old people from the Bakarwal area come there and they say, They call us as Joshis. That is the terminology which is primarily because of this influence of between the Hindu traditions and the Sufi traditions and the Muslims who have been growing up together and learning from each other. If we talk about the Bund Joshi, whose name was Sheikhikh Nooruddin Charar Sharif, whose shrine is unfortunately, the prosecution that took place there with the Sufis and Kashmiri Pandit we see it today. So when the bombing happened there, we see how Hindus and Muslims take flowers there. They go together with offering the flowers and the tradition of the syncretism. That is the essence of Kashmir that we will talk about in this panel. Jamia sir, the MP from Ladakh. Two minutes to you sir, maximum. Hello everyone from Ladakh. I greet Julley. Ladakh is the land of amazing destination and kind hearts it stands for Ladakh L A D K H land of amazing destinations amazing destinations if we see it from the perspective of a tourist one of the best tourist destination in the world an amazing destination of solar hub amazing destination of medicinal plant amazing destination of Sindhu river, amazing destination of a repository of glacier. There are so many things we can count as amazing destination and kind hearts. Kind hearts means peace, shanti, aman. and that too on the border of China and Pakistan, the unbroken part of this country is Ladakh. Whenever we talk about Jammu and Kashmir, Ladakh was always on the border, but this time after going to 370, Ladakh became the center of Shasid Pradesh and came to the limelight. And I always say that Ladakh is the best country for India. Hello, good evening everybody. The theme of this discussion, as I understand, is abrogation of Article 370 and Kashmiriyat. While diversity is sold as USP anywhere else in the world and anywhere else when it's not Kashmir, but in the case of Kashmir, The same diversity was not seen as its positive but because Ladakh was made into a separate union territory so this was an attack also on the diversity of Jammu and Kashmir. So that's point number one. Point number two is that while everybody talks about and loves to, people love to draw cheers by saying things which do not actually reflect the ground reality, it's been nearly seven months and still, you know, if you... If your Swiggy order gets laid by two minutes, you all fume. And it's been seven months that people in Kashmir do not have access to internet. And 1,50,000 youth have lost their jobs who were directly linked with tourism and IT sector. So I think all these things are to be kept in mind when we talk about things which look in a flowery language. The attack on the same people who have defended the idea of India in Kashmir. Five-time Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah, Omar Abdullah, even Shah Faisal who was sold as a role model for last 10 years, he also is in jail. And how this PSA has been used arbitrarily against everyone who has a view in Kashmir. Thank you. Vivek Agnihotri, your opening remarks. I think the theme is Kashmiriyat. So let me tell you this. Actually, what is Kashmir in today's date, conceptually and intellectually, but what is it in reality? I will give you an example. I was shooting in Kashmir in December. In Dull Lake. My wife, Pallavi Joshi, we used to make a show about India. Sheikh was doing it in Shikara. And we needed some small kids. So, 5-6 local girls from there. I sat with her in the boat in Shikara. After a while, when there was a little break, that little girl asked Pallavi, where do you live? So Pallavi said, I live in Bombay. And she didn't know where Bombay is. So she asked, where do you offer Salah? So Pallavi said, I don't offer Salah. So she asked, why don't you offer Salah? So she said, because I am not a Muslim, I am a Hindu. So she said, so what? Everyone offers Salah. And everyone should offer Salah. So this is the story. Today, Kashmir is in 2019. About which the intellectuals romanticize it a lot. But the child born in Kashmir after 1990, he doesn't know who is a Hindu, who is a Pandit. He has zero idea about diversity. Kashmir is a unique place in the world. Kashmir is the only place in the world where there is no cinema hall. When it was tried to open in 1997-98, there were shots and 15-20 people were injured and they went to the hospital. There is no theatre there. There is no music there. There is no literature there. In 1990, I will tell you, the literature, poetry, art and culture that has grown in Kashmir, there is no wonder that there was no wonder that Greeks called Kashmir Kashmir. Kashmir the cradle of civilization. It was the first Silicon Valley of the world. You name it musicology, astronomy, Ayurveda, Yoga, Naati Shastra, which is the place where Hollywood and Bollywood are based. You see these in the drama TV news. All these have come from Naati Shastra. The most epic knowledge center of India was Kashmir. And today this is the state from where the Pandit have come out. In 30 years, Kashmir has not produced even one work of art. art, literature or anything which you can call cultural, this is today's Kashmir. I will tell you about it later. How it was destroyed. Thank you. Anand, two minutes please. Good evening everyone. Actually I didn't want to be on this panel. Sushant Saneen had to be there. He couldn't come so I was roaming around. He said we need someone of the same size. So if not size then stature. So Sushant, my apologies. I will be back in two minutes. I want to say one thing on the abrogation of Article 370. There are two things. One, I don't think Kashmiris are special people. They are as special as all Indians are. And the second thing, I want to expose this. All the people who are there, Kashmiris who are in the majority, who talk about social justice, and they are against the abrogation of 370, I have the following thing to say. I take it that the people who are there, I think the synergy between science and law is terribly underrated. You know, the logic, the rationale, the ethics and the morality. There is something called the Blackstone ratio in law, which means that it is better to acquit ten guilty people than to convict one innocent. And that is so beautiful. So I want to say the following, in fact I want a show of hands, Abhijit, I won't take more than a minute. I want to take names of four or five Kashmiris and see how much we have regressed as far as morality and ethics is concerned. How many of you know of Burhan Wani? Can I have a show of hands please? Almost all the hands have won. How many of you know, and these are all Kashmiris I'm taking the names of, Meluram? No one. Radhika Gilani? One. Ek Love Meena, no one. Sainder Singh Sai, no one. Ejaz Bund, no one. These are the people who for 70 years, these are the Dalits, the homosexuals, the refugees who ran away from West Pakistan and settled, whose rights, human rights have been brutally trampled upon by the Indian democratic state for the last 70 years because of Article 370. They were graduates, post graduates, PhDs but they could only get a job as a sweeper and you have the gumption and the temerity to say that you are fighting for Dalit rights? Jai Bhim, Jai Meena, aapko sharam nahi aati sattar saal se aapne un Dalits ki human rights ko On what basis are you saying that Article 370 should not have been abrogated? You want social justice? You are crying now? You don't remember the Dalit for 70 years? So this is where I mean that the synergy between social Darwinism that comes out of the criticism by science of it and law is underrated. It must be taught in schools and universities. Thank you very much. So to just show you the contradictions that we're up against, we started off with the syncreticism, the natural beauty, the repression and exclusion and the avoidance of ground reality and then the ethnocide. happened out there as well as the complete whitewashing of history. So just to take this conversation forward, Gohar, I wanted you to respond specifically to what Anand said because his notion of Kashmir is... that it has been an imposition of a sort of Islamic view of Kashmir that's led to a complete whitewashing of other cultures, which if you accumulate with what Jamiyangji said in Parliament, means not just a whitewashing of Hindu culture, of homosexuals, but also of Ladakh's culture. How do you respond to that? One minute, please, very quickly. Before responding to him, I would briefly like to respond to Mr. Vivek when he said there's no art. Gohar, if you keep responding, then go around. No, I'll just keep it very short, 30 seconds. The best of the literature that has come... from Kashmir has come in the last 30 years. I think he doesn't read books. There's a lot of resistance literature, conflict literature, poems, theatre, which has come in the last 30 years. You know, just because you don't read doesn't mean there is no literature. Second, you know, coming directly to the question raised by the other speaker, the tradition of Kashmir is that you have heard the name of Sheikhikh ul Alam. His shruks and Lalla Arifaa, who is also known as Lalla. and Sheikhikhul Alam Shruks, that is Kashmir. You know, it's not, we celebrate diversity. That's why Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh was one unit. And that is what you have actually, you know, there's an assault on that one unit. So the second thing is about consent. You know, when there was a compact between the two parties, that compact has been broken unilaterally. Number three, how the local media in Kashmir has been silenced. And the only narrative that comes is from... Delhi, Noida and Bombay. So, you know, how people have lost jobs when the narrative is about development, how people are so scared that now there's an FIR against the entire population of Kashmir for expressing views. So there is total ban on narrative. So that is the things that you should actually talk about the dignity and dignity of life and also civil liberties, how civil liberties have been suspended in Kashmir. Abhijit, can I? Just one second. second, Anand. Jamiyangji, do you want to respond to that? Specifically from the Ladakh point of view. JAMIANG JAINPOOL KUMAR-Very interesting to hear.. Civil rights, dignity...... My brother had said before that the detention there is like this and that. Sheikhikh Abdullah can stay in jail for 11 years for the sake of Kashmir. So can't some people stay in detention for the sake of the country? And you said that there is literature there, this and that. But on the road we only saw stones, why? Isn't it? I would like to respond simply on one line. On one line, You stayed, throwing stones, we removed 370. Quickly, Vivek, I want you to respond to the point about the modern literature that Gauhar Gilani spoke about. the resistance literature and all of that and after that we'll go on to Anand. See whatever he's saying is his perception but since there is no diversity in Kashmir, it's very difficult to understand all other realities. I think what happened was and after 1947 since I have been working on this project for last two years, I'm making a film on Kashmiri Hindu genocide and I've been researching what happened after partition somewhere the Indian state believed that the Hindus will always remain patriot. And it's time to appease the Muslim population of Kashmir. It was 100% Hindu population. By the time we got partitioned, it became 15%. In 1990, it was almost between 2% and 5%. Now it's some 0.02% or 0.03%. Why did it happen? It happened because of the state of India. How we appeased and we created wrong history. Like Sufism, for example. Every single Prime Minister of India has glorified Sufism. Yes, Sufi music is great. Which actually came from the Bhakti Pratho of India. It came, it was influenced by Meena Bai, by Tulsi Das, by Kashmir. And that's why you see the entire Sufi music today is limited to Rajasthan and that part. Why it's not existing in Kashmir if it is such a great integral part? Now, before you should know how we have been cheated, all the young people who are sitting here, you must condemn. How you have been... I have to finish this. Literature. I want to specifically address the point of literature. Now Kashmir, every single time we talk about 370, we talk, people bring Sufism in front of us and that becomes the shield like in Shaheen Bagh, women have become shield. Now let me quote something. Let me quote something. Okay, let me just read two lines and you will understand the art and literature part. Okay, they were supposed to be always ready to carry the orders of the king. The king was Iraqi. Iraqi who came from Iraq. The personnel of royal bodyguard always sported large mustaches and like all Qazilbash wore red headgear. They did nothing against the wishes of the Murshid-e-Kamil meaning the Shah and on his order they struck several blows at the dead body and with his sword and ordered the Sufis to eat the flesh if somebody was left alive which they did religiously. This is written about who? This is written about the soldiers of the king whose only job was to convert people into Islam and they were called Sufis. And this is written, wait, and this is not my quote, this is written by the son of Arak. and this manuscript Gilani sahab is lying in JNK research center in Srinagar and in Aga Khan there are only two manuscripts and one is in Aga Khan research center I got hold of both of them and if I read the description of Sufis okay you will see them in the first thing you do is that will destroy them and so this is Sufism for you don't get miscarried I have only two points to make. First, those who have facts and truth, they don't need to be afraid of anyone. They don't need to be afraid of anyone. So let me tell you the facts, but first I want to say that I am personally... against the continued incarceration of Mahbubah Mufti and Omar Abdullah. I think it's been a long time. There has to be solid reasons for continued incarceration. But this is also true and these are the facts. Omar Abdullah sanctioned... 1537 detentions under the same PSA in four years from 2009 to 12. Then many people were quiet. Mahbubah Mufti's PDP booked 1266 people in three years during 2003 to 2005. Congress government led by Anand detained 1010 persons in 2006 to 2007. And Farooq Abdullah booked 503 people in 2002. Now when a hammer is falling on your head, then all social justice warriors are... as I said I am personally against there have to be strong reasons and number two look at the pathetic goalpost shifting this question that was raised why did you not ever raise a voice against the continued persecution and the trampling of human rights of lakhs of Dalits and homosexuals and refugees and Sikhs and women and Gurkhas. Not one word. And now you are saying that no, we always want to stand for dignity and human rights. This question needs to be answered. And let me tell you, there is no harm in saying sorry and seeking an apology. apology from the Indians. I say sorry. Until Ratan Shah wrote about this, I had no idea that lakhs of Dalits were miserably persecuted in the same Kashmir. I say sorry. There is no harm in all of us saying sorry, Mr. Gilani. And we must move on. from there. Okay, Chishti Saab, I just want you to come in on the Sufi thing because I think one of the things about modern literature is and a lot of people have written about this that you know there's different Sufi traditions. Some of them are quite peaceful but Taimur Lang was also a Sufi and he came and sacked Delhi and there were a hundred thousand Delhiwala's killed. The lack of this tradition is yours, not of the listeners. And those who know the truth, and the truth of this country, no one can misguide them. Because we are talking about centuries. We are not talking about the last 70 generations. When we are talking, this tradition and in every heart, when we put on the voices and talk about Sufism, that there is no music, there is no this and that. I agree with him that the Sufi devotion tradition, when they gave music to Sufism, today we see, we sit in the Qawwali, in all the languages, not just Hindi, not just Urdu, but the language of the people. The old ancient Hindi language is still used today. If we say Sufism is a religion, it can be their own weakness. But it is the truth of those who listen and feel. As Arifa Mohd said earlier, the truth is one. And when we listen and feel it, no matter what explanation it may come from, we can connect with it and feel it. If we talk about Kashmir and Kanyakumari, our brother said that from Karakoram to Kanyakumari, our country is a land of peace. We know, we understand that how spiritual understanding from all faiths and Kashmir is a living example today. Today we are not saying that persecution did not happen. Now, after some time when our Prime Minister will come here, he also said about Kashmir that we have supported him not only here but also in Geneva because it is a whole event and we have been considering it for centuries. The world has been supporting Kashmir. This is our duty to tell the world about Kashmir, which has been there for thousands of years. And to raise our fingers on our own people. If we raise our fingers on the terrorists who have crossed the border, it will break their hearts. The way Kashmiri Pandit were oppressed, the same way Sufis were oppressed. They have also been removed. When I said in the parliament that the Sufis who were removed with Kashmiri Pandit, where are they today? This is our duty. Gohar, one very specific point taking on from what Anand raised. If he's sorry for everything, everything that's happened. What do you think is the collective guilt of the majority of Kashmiris in the KP exodus? Again, first of all, I would like everyone to, you know, take name of Joshi Goebbels. I think today he must be feeling very insecure, the kind of propaganda that is being done against Kashmiris. So hang on, just to give a bit of background. Listen to me, the propaganda you are doing here, and the propaganda you are doing here, whatever you want, I remember a couplet, No scratch on the sword, no stain on the dagger, You kill or do miracles. Like as George Orwell said that in politics, the language is used in such a way that murder looks like respectable. You know, on the one hand, he says he condemns the incarceration of political leaders, civil society actors and human rights defenders in Kashmir. But at the same time, he gives figures that they had also done the same. So do wrongs make right. Do two wrongs make a right. But what is the thing, Gohar? You're not denying that. See, no, no. See, see. I'm saying, you know, just... Are you saying, are you accepting that there is some collective responsibility? Just raising you in cry and sharing everything that is... Ek share mujhe bhi aad aara hai, umar par Ghalib yahi bhool karta raha. Dhool chehre pe thi, aayana saaf karta raha. So, this audience, I understand that, you know, every... Every time Kashmir is being humiliated, you cheer a lot. So I have no problems with that. So, also I would like to say, if you allow me, if you shout, then I don't want to... You keep speaking, you don't worry. Chishti sir, I will get you in, please. So, you know, how these things are... are being done and sold as something else, while the ground reality is very, very different from what these guys are saying and what you are cheering for. But let, you know, in history books, these two years, five years come as one paragraph. Let things settle down. On the one hand, you say everything is normal, and then you take foreign envoys to trips to Kashmir, but don't allow Manish Shah Iyer who has written a scathing piece in the Indian Express that he was under house arrest, hotel arrest. He was not allowed to meet anyone. So these double standards, this hypocrisy, first saying that Kashmir is a bilateral issue and then saying it's an internal issue, then saying it's not an issue at all, then taking foreign envoys on trips to Kashmir. So I think this hypocrisy must stop. Okay. I just want to point out that two questions to now remain unanswered. One is the last 30 years of literature. One second Anand, I will come to you. And the second one is the complete sidestepping of the collective guilt question. Jamiyangji, is there anything you want to add on either of these topics or anything else? I want to add one thing. My friend put up a point here about insecure. See, when you removed Kashmiri Pandit from there, you feel secure. When you eliminated Sufism culture from there, you feel secure. When you removed Jamia Dugris from there, you feel secure. Ladaqa is completely discriminated against, you feel insecure. But today we ask you why you did this. Then you feel insecure. See, because of 370, there were no such laws in Jammu and Kashmir. Why not? We ask you, you feel insecure. There was no jurisdiction of Comptroller of Auditors General. You were looting the treasure of India. You feel insecure. that we are cleaning the Dal Lake. Actually, the Dal Lake was not being cleaned. The country's treasure was being cleaned. Now we are asking, you feel insecure? The Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh that you are running through today, you were talking about Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir, you were talking about a focal point, you were neither talking about Jammu nor about Ladakh. Today we are asking this question, nobody is propagating from this stage, nobody is propagating, everybody is telling the fact, the truth is going in front of the country, when the truth is going in front of the country, you feel insecure. Vivek, I want you to very very specifically without straying address the point that Gohar raised that the last 30 years have also produced a huge bulk of literature. Okay, so I would like him to name and quote some work of literature in front of the audience. of five or six names I will take. The grammar in India, Wani. No, no, in the last 30 years. No, no, I'm coming to 30. It has to be to the last 30 years. No, last 30 years, I mean, you name, I don't know. I don't know what literature, what music you have created. What are the... What are the kind of books you have produced? What kind of research you have done? What kind of scientific research you have done? What kind of work has been done on philosophy and higher thought? Kashmir was always a land. Look at the contribution of Kashmir. Grammar, yoga, literature, music. You name it. There is nothing which has not been created in Kashmir. And they have destroyed everything from Kashmir. Today Kashmir has no diversity. Kashmir has nothing. And let me tell you one thing. The young girls, I have been meeting girls and boys every day. They are so happy after Article 370. This is a false propaganda they are creating. The youth is very happy. They say this is the first time we have got freedom. But the problem is that they are not allowed to work. They are not allowed to participate in Indian mainstream because they fear all these people, the so-called leaders, the political and social leaders, they beat them up. I have seen 12 girls who participated with me in one shooting getting beaten up in front of my eyes by the entire village. How do you expect... If you cut somebody's head, how do you expect them to come back to the mainstream? The only contribution is that on radio, there is only namaz and kalmas. On every important mainstream function, there is only religious preachings. Every single thing has boiled down to Islam. And it's the Islamic forces, not the Kashmiri. Please do not hate Kashmiri young boys and girls. Because they are born after 1990. They have not seen any diversity. So it's not their fault. The fault is people... who are the who have become the landlords of Kashmir Every person should be punished as much as if someone from Kashmir remove the name of Mahadev that person should be punished as much as every person should be punished who from Kashmir who is from Saraswati, Sheikh who is from Kashmir, Sheikh who killed Saraswati, there is no punishment for that man's crime. I can't believe how such a thing so simple as admitting that yes, we were wrong, especially when the people who cry as the gentleman was about human rights and dignity. I apologize to my Dalit brothers and homosexual brothers and sisters and women of Kashmir that yes, Indian state failed you by the continuous application of Article 370 that trampled on your human rights. But you know why some people won't apologize? Because their whole house of cards and house of placards will come crumbling down. That is the reason. They would have to accept that for 70 years they were following a law in Kashmir that was unjust towards Indians, towards Dalits whom they call brothers. This is the reason why people still would not say sorry. It's so simple to say sorry. Say sorry. Anand, one quick question to you based on what Gauhar said. You brought up all these cases of the PSA being applied. One of the reasons we kind of abrogated 370 is because of the fact that we have a lot of people who are not going to be able to get out of this. precisely because of mal governance. Should the Indian state then be applying the same laws on Kashmir that we then withdrew 374 precisely for that kind of mal governance? Sorry, I didn't understand the... So one of the reasons was the draconian use of laws and discrimination and all of that. What it doesn't send a good message if the Indian state's first action when it withdraws 370 is to use the same draconian laws against the people, just a different set of... No, there is a point in there. But having also said that, that Kashmir is not Gurgaon. There are 100,000 Indian troops over there. The situation is very different. You know, when a terrorist, Burhan Wani, was killed, for the next three months, Kashmir was in a total lockdown. 10,000 crore loss. 100 people were killed. So, you know, this was the death of a terrorist. This is what happened. So, you know, of course, as I said, that, you know, I am against the continued incarceration of people because they have to be based on the application and the advice given by the security. And I think... I think it really has been a bit too long in my personal opinion. Having said that, yes, of course, there have to be laws that have to be conscientious. Every law must have a moral and ethical backing. Otherwise, I would not term it as a law. Okay. Gohar, coming back to you and Chishti sir, after that, I'll come to you. I want you to answer a specific question because we now seem to be stuck in a rut where we're just going two-for-two-for-two. So I want you to now give us what your opinion of the media coverage, media lockdown, so on and so forth. is because I also want to get other people into that entire media lockdown debate. Yeah, I mean, the coverage by the media based in Noida and Bombay has been very shabby and it's been very one-sided. And especially the local media in Kashmir is totally silenced. Almost all the news editors were taken by the NIA. And, you know, also the local journalists on a daily basis are being summoned and questioned at Cargo, which is a counterinsurgency grid, and local police stations. And, you know... You know, the oppression is at such a level that it's almost, the views have been criminalized in Kashmir. And I don't think it's a good idea to celebrate criminalization of opinions. You know, while you do so, you have to understand that these chickens can come home to roost. If you celebrate this criminalization of ideas in Kashmir, tomorrow this can happen to you as well. There is no problem when you form a coalition government with Mahbubah Mufti, then she's a good partner to have. There is no problem when you receive the Huryat delegation in Delhi. But now because of the change, now everything is, you know, now they are all evil. So that's the problem. You know, you have to understand facts. How for political reasons, how with a civilizational and ideological view, all these decisions are taken. There's no politics. It's all a civilizational view that this is a place where we have to suppress this place called Kashmir and people called Kashmiris. Thank you very much. Last words to Jamia before we hit the audience question round. If I, if I tell you in detail, without consuming, without taking so much time, if I tell you in detail, if all this is happening, then prevention is better than cure for the benefit of the country. Last line, Vivek. If Kashmir India becomes a part of India with the same pride and love, then this responsibility should not be left only on Kashmirians, this responsibility should also be ours and we can set an example. You know, the more you can exchange your thoughts and ideas with each other, you have to integrate them by showing them the greatness of India, then only they will be tempted to come here because all they get to see is the barbarism of Islamic forces there. Thank you. Okay, now we need to get into a Q&A round. Right over. Sir, we've got literally two minutes left now. We have to give the audience a chance. Just one minute. What Vivek bhai has said is absolutely right. We talk about this. What Gauhar bhai has said, when people are clapping, don't feel that it is about humiliation, about Kashmiri. Every Kashmiri is a part of India. Just like Kashmir is a part of India. So the applause that is being given here is not for humiliation. What is wrong is for what is right. And this is something that we have to take responsibility for. Vivek bhai... I think it is our responsibility. Because here in Delhi, 700 years ago, it was said that If there is a heaven in the world, then it is said for Kashmir, then it is here, here, here, in this India. So keeping this in front of us, we have to interact with everyone. Questions? Any questions? Okay, I can only take three. Please make it short, quick questions. The mics. Can we give the audience this thing? If you don't mind, I'd prefer to give it to the audience at the back. Quickly, the gentleman there raising his hand. Please just make it a question. No comments. Just quickly a question. The gentleman in the black and white. If you can quickly give him a mic. Anybody else wants to ask a question? Raise your hands now. now? The gentleman in the black at the front, I will get to you. The... Quickly, if you can just ask a quick question. Yeah. I want to ask... My question is to Mr. Chishti. You know, we have Bhakti tradition, Sai Baba and Mahababa and all. All these people, you know, form from Bhakti movement. But why do we see that Muslims, you know, generally don't respect this point of view, don't honor this point of view generally? Why do they practice the system of exclusivity? One second, let me just collect a few questions. This gentleman in black standing here? The gentleman who's standing here? No, no, right here, right here. Thank you, Abhijit sir. Quickly. I would like to ask a question to the MP from Kashmir. The thing that has not changed since the 70s, since 370s, what has happened now... Can you please hold the mic closer to your mouth and speak up a bit? Thank you. I am telling him that if you think that Kashmir is closed and everything is in detention, when Kashmir Pandit was released from there in those years, at that time he was asking this question. Why wasn't the question raised about Kashmir Pandit? Why wasn't the discussion about Kashmir Pandit raised about Kashmir Pandit? Your government was in Kashmir at that time. So, you have to ask the question, why wasn't the question raised about Kashmir Pandit raised? Why wasn't the question raised about Kashmir Pandit raised? Make it short and trite. Thank you. Okay, so that's the number of questions. I have to wrap up now. It's a hard start. Quickly, 30 seconds. Sir, excuse me if I may ask one. Just, I'm very sorry, but I have been listening to all of you. I've been to Kashmir. I'm a simple person. I want to say that this is not as simple as Mr. Agnihotri said. Ma'am, do you have a question? I have a question. No, actually, I want to say... Sir, I have... Ma'am, this isn't for comments. Do you have a question? Please identify who you want to ask the question to and ask the question. I will tell you that I... I want to ask that question to Mr. Gilani because I met a lot of young people there and most of them said, Aap kya India se aaye ho? Everybody was identifying, ki India alag cheez hai kya? Maine ka tum bhi toh India me rehte ho? Nahi nahi, aap toh India se aaye ho. they are this thing with the tourists what is the question no no no no questions no more questions please sit down no no no no no last one question no no no no more questions no more questions we have to end now enough go ahead why it's not been practiced Look, the problem of Kashmir is that all the prosecutions that took place there The prosecutions that took place there for Kashmir and along with that You saw how the Sufis were attacked by the terror attack Terrorists, terrorists who are there They are Kashmiri or Kashmiri culture representatives or they bring Kashmirism to the fore. The terrorists are there for their political interests. They were successful in many ways in order to instabilitize them. We heard the blasts of the blasts of the blasts. We never heard how people were killed there. How they were taken out. So today when we collectively talk about this, to establish peace, we have to take the trust of every Kashmiri. And all our Kashmiri Pandit brothers, who are standing there with them, who have been oppressed by the Sufis, they too have to stand with them. That is why our culture, Kashmir, which was called, Atal Bihari Wajpayee Sai said, Jammu-riyat aur Kashmiriyat. When these three things will be lifted, then only we will see the real face of Kashmir. And I quote this thing every time, I will end here that about our country India, which has been called as the world's guru, what is it? I will repeat the words of Rumi and end my speech by saying that Come, come, come whoever you are, come. even if you have broken your walls of repentance come, our doors, our India, our doors is not the door of despair. And I'm sure that speech will keep you more entertained than this one, hopefully, inshallah. So, thank you guys. You were a great audience. Thank you all the panelists. Thank you very much. But I'm sure this has really created the prelude and the atmosphere for the same. All right. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thank you.

The abrogation of the article 370 and what it means to Kashmiriyat. Come, without taking any time, I will... I would like to invite the panelists to the stage.

Please keep clapping. Please keep clapping. Our beat, Mr. Gauhar Gilani, Mr. Anand Ratan, Syed Salah Chishti, Vivek Agnihotri, and this session is moderated by Thank you.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Since the introductions of all our panelists, I'd like to welcome all our panelists. It has already happened.

We have to do a hard stop at 6.45, so I'm going to rush this session through. What I'm going to do is, starting from the left, I'm going to start off with everybody to just give a quick one and a half to two minute opening remark. Chishti sahab.

Greetings of peace. In the panel where we are talking about Kashmiriyat, Kashmir and its culture, when we talk about it, we should keep this in mind. We have to have this understanding in our mind that we are not talking about Kashmir for the last 70 years, but of a thousand years of legacy and Kashmir tradition that we are talking about. And when we look at the spiritual life of Kashmiris, the reflections that we get to see, whether it is culture, or language, or language, or style, whether it is Shaivite traditions or Sufi traditions, whether it is a church, a temple, a mosque, how for centuries the soul of India is seen, known and felt. When the people of Kashmir speak in their language, they say that they are from Ajmer Dargah.

When Kashmiris come there, when it snows, the old people from the Bakarwal area come there and they say, They call us as Joshis. That is the terminology which is primarily because of this influence of between the Hindu traditions and the Sufi traditions and the Muslims who have been growing up together and learning from each other. If we talk about the Bund Joshi, whose name was Sheikhikh Nooruddin Charar Sharif, whose shrine is unfortunately, the prosecution that took place there with the Sufis and Kashmiri Pandit we see it today.

So when the bombing happened there, we see how Hindus and Muslims take flowers there. They go together with offering the flowers and the tradition of the syncretism. That is the essence of Kashmir that we will talk about in this panel.

Jamia sir, the MP from Ladakh. Two minutes to you sir, maximum. Hello everyone from Ladakh.

I greet Julley. Ladakh is the land of amazing destination and kind hearts it stands for Ladakh L A D K H land of amazing destinations amazing destinations if we see it from the perspective of a tourist one of the best tourist destination in the world an amazing destination of solar hub amazing destination of medicinal plant amazing destination of Sindhu river, amazing destination of a repository of glacier. There are so many things we can count as amazing destination and kind hearts. Kind hearts means peace, shanti, aman. and that too on the border of China and Pakistan, the unbroken part of this country is Ladakh.

Whenever we talk about Jammu and Kashmir, Ladakh was always on the border, but this time after going to 370, Ladakh became the center of Shasid Pradesh and came to the limelight. And I always say that Ladakh is the best country for India. Hello, good evening everybody.

The theme of this discussion, as I understand, is abrogation of Article 370 and Kashmiriyat. While diversity is sold as USP anywhere else in the world and anywhere else when it's not Kashmir, but in the case of Kashmir, The same diversity was not seen as its positive but because Ladakh was made into a separate union territory so this was an attack also on the diversity of Jammu and Kashmir. So that's point number one. Point number two is that while everybody talks about and loves to, people love to draw cheers by saying things which do not actually reflect the ground reality, it's been nearly seven months and still, you know, if you...

If your Swiggy order gets laid by two minutes, you all fume. And it's been seven months that people in Kashmir do not have access to internet. And 1,50,000 youth have lost their jobs who were directly linked with tourism and IT sector.

So I think all these things are to be kept in mind when we talk about things which look in a flowery language. The attack on the same people who have defended the idea of India in Kashmir. Five-time Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah, Omar Abdullah, even Shah Faisal who was sold as a role model for last 10 years, he also is in jail.

And how this PSA has been used arbitrarily against everyone who has a view in Kashmir. Thank you. Vivek Agnihotri, your opening remarks. I think the theme is Kashmiriyat.

So let me tell you this. Actually, what is Kashmir in today's date, conceptually and intellectually, but what is it in reality? I will give you an example. I was shooting in Kashmir in December. In Dull Lake.

My wife, Pallavi Joshi, we used to make a show about India. Sheikh was doing it in Shikara. And we needed some small kids.

So, 5-6 local girls from there. I sat with her in the boat in Shikara. After a while, when there was a little break, that little girl asked Pallavi, where do you live?

So Pallavi said, I live in Bombay. And she didn't know where Bombay is. So she asked, where do you offer Salah?

So Pallavi said, I don't offer Salah. So she asked, why don't you offer Salah? So she said, because I am not a Muslim, I am a Hindu.

So she said, so what? Everyone offers Salah. And everyone should offer Salah.

So this is the story. Today, Kashmir is in 2019. About which the intellectuals romanticize it a lot. But the child born in Kashmir after 1990, he doesn't know who is a Hindu, who is a Pandit.

He has zero idea about diversity. Kashmir is a unique place in the world. Kashmir is the only place in the world where there is no cinema hall.

When it was tried to open in 1997-98, there were shots and 15-20 people were injured and they went to the hospital. There is no theatre there. There is no music there.

There is no literature there. In 1990, I will tell you, the literature, poetry, art and culture that has grown in Kashmir, there is no wonder that there was no wonder that Greeks called Kashmir Kashmir. Kashmir the cradle of civilization.

It was the first Silicon Valley of the world. You name it musicology, astronomy, Ayurveda, Yoga, Naati Shastra, which is the place where Hollywood and Bollywood are based. You see these in the drama TV news. All these have come from Naati Shastra. The most epic knowledge center of India was Kashmir.

And today this is the state from where the Pandit have come out. In 30 years, Kashmir has not produced even one work of art. art, literature or anything which you can call cultural, this is today's Kashmir. I will tell you about it later.

How it was destroyed. Thank you. Anand, two minutes please.

Good evening everyone. Actually I didn't want to be on this panel. Sushant Saneen had to be there.

He couldn't come so I was roaming around. He said we need someone of the same size. So if not size then stature. So Sushant, my apologies.

I will be back in two minutes. I want to say one thing on the abrogation of Article 370. There are two things. One, I don't think Kashmiris are special people.

They are as special as all Indians are. And the second thing, I want to expose this. All the people who are there, Kashmiris who are in the majority, who talk about social justice, and they are against the abrogation of 370, I have the following thing to say. I take it that the people who are there, I think the synergy between science and law is terribly underrated.

You know, the logic, the rationale, the ethics and the morality. There is something called the Blackstone ratio in law, which means that it is better to acquit ten guilty people than to convict one innocent. And that is so beautiful. So I want to say the following, in fact I want a show of hands, Abhijit, I won't take more than a minute.

I want to take names of four or five Kashmiris and see how much we have regressed as far as morality and ethics is concerned. How many of you know of Burhan Wani? Can I have a show of hands please? Almost all the hands have won.

How many of you know, and these are all Kashmiris I'm taking the names of, Meluram? No one. Radhika Gilani? One. Ek Love Meena, no one.

Sainder Singh Sai, no one. Ejaz Bund, no one. These are the people who for 70 years, these are the Dalits, the homosexuals, the refugees who ran away from West Pakistan and settled, whose rights, human rights have been brutally trampled upon by the Indian democratic state for the last 70 years because of Article 370. They were graduates, post graduates, PhDs but they could only get a job as a sweeper and you have the gumption and the temerity to say that you are fighting for Dalit rights?

Jai Bhim, Jai Meena, aapko sharam nahi aati sattar saal se aapne un Dalits ki human rights ko On what basis are you saying that Article 370 should not have been abrogated? You want social justice? You are crying now?

You don't remember the Dalit for 70 years? So this is where I mean that the synergy between social Darwinism that comes out of the criticism by science of it and law is underrated. It must be taught in schools and universities. Thank you very much.

So to just show you the contradictions that we're up against, we started off with the syncreticism, the natural beauty, the repression and exclusion and the avoidance of ground reality and then the ethnocide. happened out there as well as the complete whitewashing of history. So just to take this conversation forward, Gohar, I wanted you to respond specifically to what Anand said because his notion of Kashmir is...

that it has been an imposition of a sort of Islamic view of Kashmir that's led to a complete whitewashing of other cultures, which if you accumulate with what Jamiyangji said in Parliament, means not just a whitewashing of Hindu culture, of homosexuals, but also of Ladakh's culture. How do you respond to that? One minute, please, very quickly. Before responding to him, I would briefly like to respond to Mr. Vivek when he said there's no art.

Gohar, if you keep responding, then go around. No, I'll just keep it very short, 30 seconds. The best of the literature that has come... from Kashmir has come in the last 30 years. I think he doesn't read books.

There's a lot of resistance literature, conflict literature, poems, theatre, which has come in the last 30 years. You know, just because you don't read doesn't mean there is no literature. Second, you know, coming directly to the question raised by the other speaker, the tradition of Kashmir is that you have heard the name of Sheikhikh ul Alam. His shruks and Lalla Arifaa, who is also known as Lalla.

and Sheikhikhul Alam Shruks, that is Kashmir. You know, it's not, we celebrate diversity. That's why Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh was one unit.

And that is what you have actually, you know, there's an assault on that one unit. So the second thing is about consent. You know, when there was a compact between the two parties, that compact has been broken unilaterally. Number three, how the local media in Kashmir has been silenced. And the only narrative that comes is from...

Delhi, Noida and Bombay. So, you know, how people have lost jobs when the narrative is about development, how people are so scared that now there's an FIR against the entire population of Kashmir for expressing views. So there is total ban on narrative. So that is the things that you should actually talk about the dignity and dignity of life and also civil liberties, how civil liberties have been suspended in Kashmir.

Abhijit, can I? Just one second. second, Anand.

Jamiyangji, do you want to respond to that? Specifically from the Ladakh point of view. JAMIANG JAINPOOL KUMAR-Very interesting to hear.. Civil rights, dignity......

My brother had said before that the detention there is like this and that. Sheikhikh Abdullah can stay in jail for 11 years for the sake of Kashmir. So can't some people stay in detention for the sake of the country? And you said that there is literature there, this and that. But on the road we only saw stones, why?

Isn't it? I would like to respond simply on one line. On one line, You stayed, throwing stones, we removed 370. Quickly, Vivek, I want you to respond to the point about the modern literature that Gauhar Gilani spoke about. the resistance literature and all of that and after that we'll go on to Anand.

See whatever he's saying is his perception but since there is no diversity in Kashmir, it's very difficult to understand all other realities. I think what happened was and after 1947 since I have been working on this project for last two years, I'm making a film on Kashmiri Hindu genocide and I've been researching what happened after partition somewhere the Indian state believed that the Hindus will always remain patriot. And it's time to appease the Muslim population of Kashmir. It was 100% Hindu population.

By the time we got partitioned, it became 15%. In 1990, it was almost between 2% and 5%. Now it's some 0.02% or 0.03%. Why did it happen? It happened because of the state of India.

How we appeased and we created wrong history. Like Sufism, for example. Every single Prime Minister of India has glorified Sufism.

Yes, Sufi music is great. Which actually came from the Bhakti Pratho of India. It came, it was influenced by Meena Bai, by Tulsi Das, by Kashmir. And that's why you see the entire Sufi music today is limited to Rajasthan and that part.

Why it's not existing in Kashmir if it is such a great integral part? Now, before you should know how we have been cheated, all the young people who are sitting here, you must condemn. How you have been... I have to finish this.

Literature. I want to specifically address the point of literature. Now Kashmir, every single time we talk about 370, we talk, people bring Sufism in front of us and that becomes the shield like in Shaheen Bagh, women have become shield.

Now let me quote something. Let me quote something. Okay, let me just read two lines and you will understand the art and literature part. Okay, they were supposed to be always ready to carry the orders of the king. The king was Iraqi.

Iraqi who came from Iraq. The personnel of royal bodyguard always sported large mustaches and like all Qazilbash wore red headgear. They did nothing against the wishes of the Murshid-e-Kamil meaning the Shah and on his order they struck several blows at the dead body and with his sword and ordered the Sufis to eat the flesh if somebody was left alive which they did religiously.

This is written about who? This is written about the soldiers of the king whose only job was to convert people into Islam and they were called Sufis. And this is written, wait, and this is not my quote, this is written by the son of Arak.

and this manuscript Gilani sahab is lying in JNK research center in Srinagar and in Aga Khan there are only two manuscripts and one is in Aga Khan research center I got hold of both of them and if I read the description of Sufis okay you will see them in the first thing you do is that will destroy them and so this is Sufism for you don't get miscarried I have only two points to make. First, those who have facts and truth, they don't need to be afraid of anyone. They don't need to be afraid of anyone.

So let me tell you the facts, but first I want to say that I am personally... against the continued incarceration of Mahbubah Mufti and Omar Abdullah. I think it's been a long time. There has to be solid reasons for continued incarceration.

But this is also true and these are the facts. Omar Abdullah sanctioned... 1537 detentions under the same PSA in four years from 2009 to 12. Then many people were quiet.

Mahbubah Mufti's PDP booked 1266 people in three years during 2003 to 2005. Congress government led by Anand detained 1010 persons in 2006 to 2007. And Farooq Abdullah booked 503 people in 2002. Now when a hammer is falling on your head, then all social justice warriors are... as I said I am personally against there have to be strong reasons and number two look at the pathetic goalpost shifting this question that was raised why did you not ever raise a voice against the continued persecution and the trampling of human rights of lakhs of Dalits and homosexuals and refugees and Sikhs and women and Gurkhas. Not one word. And now you are saying that no, we always want to stand for dignity and human rights. This question needs to be answered.

And let me tell you, there is no harm in saying sorry and seeking an apology. apology from the Indians. I say sorry. Until Ratan Shah wrote about this, I had no idea that lakhs of Dalits were miserably persecuted in the same Kashmir. I say sorry.

There is no harm in all of us saying sorry, Mr. Gilani. And we must move on. from there.

Okay, Chishti Saab, I just want you to come in on the Sufi thing because I think one of the things about modern literature is and a lot of people have written about this that you know there's different Sufi traditions. Some of them are quite peaceful but Taimur Lang was also a Sufi and he came and sacked Delhi and there were a hundred thousand Delhiwala's killed. The lack of this tradition is yours, not of the listeners.

And those who know the truth, and the truth of this country, no one can misguide them. Because we are talking about centuries. We are not talking about the last 70 generations.

When we are talking, this tradition and in every heart, when we put on the voices and talk about Sufism, that there is no music, there is no this and that. I agree with him that the Sufi devotion tradition, when they gave music to Sufism, today we see, we sit in the Qawwali, in all the languages, not just Hindi, not just Urdu, but the language of the people. The old ancient Hindi language is still used today. If we say Sufism is a religion, it can be their own weakness. But it is the truth of those who listen and feel.

As Arifa Mohd said earlier, the truth is one. And when we listen and feel it, no matter what explanation it may come from, we can connect with it and feel it. If we talk about Kashmir and Kanyakumari, our brother said that from Karakoram to Kanyakumari, our country is a land of peace. We know, we understand that how spiritual understanding from all faiths and Kashmir is a living example today. Today we are not saying that persecution did not happen.

Now, after some time when our Prime Minister will come here, he also said about Kashmir that we have supported him not only here but also in Geneva because it is a whole event and we have been considering it for centuries. The world has been supporting Kashmir. This is our duty to tell the world about Kashmir, which has been there for thousands of years.

And to raise our fingers on our own people. If we raise our fingers on the terrorists who have crossed the border, it will break their hearts. The way Kashmiri Pandit were oppressed, the same way Sufis were oppressed. They have also been removed. When I said in the parliament that the Sufis who were removed with Kashmiri Pandit, where are they today?

This is our duty. Gohar, one very specific point taking on from what Anand raised. If he's sorry for everything, everything that's happened.

What do you think is the collective guilt of the majority of Kashmiris in the KP exodus? Again, first of all, I would like everyone to, you know, take name of Joshi Goebbels. I think today he must be feeling very insecure, the kind of propaganda that is being done against Kashmiris.

So hang on, just to give a bit of background. Listen to me, the propaganda you are doing here, and the propaganda you are doing here, whatever you want, I remember a couplet, No scratch on the sword, no stain on the dagger, You kill or do miracles. Like as George Orwell said that in politics, the language is used in such a way that murder looks like respectable.

You know, on the one hand, he says he condemns the incarceration of political leaders, civil society actors and human rights defenders in Kashmir. But at the same time, he gives figures that they had also done the same. So do wrongs make right.

Do two wrongs make a right. But what is the thing, Gohar? You're not denying that. See, no, no.

See, see. I'm saying, you know, just... Are you saying, are you accepting that there is some collective responsibility? Just raising you in cry and sharing everything that is...

Ek share mujhe bhi aad aara hai, umar par Ghalib yahi bhool karta raha. Dhool chehre pe thi, aayana saaf karta raha. So, this audience, I understand that, you know, every...

Every time Kashmir is being humiliated, you cheer a lot. So I have no problems with that. So, also I would like to say, if you allow me, if you shout, then I don't want to... You keep speaking, you don't worry. Chishti sir, I will get you in, please.

So, you know, how these things are... are being done and sold as something else, while the ground reality is very, very different from what these guys are saying and what you are cheering for. But let, you know, in history books, these two years, five years come as one paragraph.

Let things settle down. On the one hand, you say everything is normal, and then you take foreign envoys to trips to Kashmir, but don't allow Manish Shah Iyer who has written a scathing piece in the Indian Express that he was under house arrest, hotel arrest. He was not allowed to meet anyone.

So these double standards, this hypocrisy, first saying that Kashmir is a bilateral issue and then saying it's an internal issue, then saying it's not an issue at all, then taking foreign envoys on trips to Kashmir. So I think this hypocrisy must stop. Okay.

I just want to point out that two questions to now remain unanswered. One is the last 30 years of literature. One second Anand, I will come to you.

And the second one is the complete sidestepping of the collective guilt question. Jamiyangji, is there anything you want to add on either of these topics or anything else? I want to add one thing.

My friend put up a point here about insecure. See, when you removed Kashmiri Pandit from there, you feel secure. When you eliminated Sufism culture from there, you feel secure.

When you removed Jamia Dugris from there, you feel secure. Ladaqa is completely discriminated against, you feel insecure. But today we ask you why you did this. Then you feel insecure.

See, because of 370, there were no such laws in Jammu and Kashmir. Why not? We ask you, you feel insecure. There was no jurisdiction of Comptroller of Auditors General. You were looting the treasure of India.

You feel insecure. that we are cleaning the Dal Lake. Actually, the Dal Lake was not being cleaned. The country's treasure was being cleaned. Now we are asking, you feel insecure?

The Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh that you are running through today, you were talking about Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir, you were talking about a focal point, you were neither talking about Jammu nor about Ladakh. Today we are asking this question, nobody is propagating from this stage, nobody is propagating, everybody is telling the fact, the truth is going in front of the country, when the truth is going in front of the country, you feel insecure. Vivek, I want you to very very specifically without straying address the point that Gohar raised that the last 30 years have also produced a huge bulk of literature. Okay, so I would like him to name and quote some work of literature in front of the audience.

of five or six names I will take. The grammar in India, Wani. No, no, in the last 30 years. No, no, I'm coming to 30. It has to be to the last 30 years. No, last 30 years, I mean, you name, I don't know.

I don't know what literature, what music you have created. What are the... What are the kind of books you have produced? What kind of research you have done?

What kind of scientific research you have done? What kind of work has been done on philosophy and higher thought? Kashmir was always a land. Look at the contribution of Kashmir.

Grammar, yoga, literature, music. You name it. There is nothing which has not been created in Kashmir. And they have destroyed everything from Kashmir. Today Kashmir has no diversity.

Kashmir has nothing. And let me tell you one thing. The young girls, I have been meeting girls and boys every day. They are so happy after Article 370. This is a false propaganda they are creating. The youth is very happy.

They say this is the first time we have got freedom. But the problem is that they are not allowed to work. They are not allowed to participate in Indian mainstream because they fear all these people, the so-called leaders, the political and social leaders, they beat them up.

I have seen 12 girls who participated with me in one shooting getting beaten up in front of my eyes by the entire village. How do you expect... If you cut somebody's head, how do you expect them to come back to the mainstream? The only contribution is that on radio, there is only namaz and kalmas. On every important mainstream function, there is only religious preachings.

Every single thing has boiled down to Islam. And it's the Islamic forces, not the Kashmiri. Please do not hate Kashmiri young boys and girls.

Because they are born after 1990. They have not seen any diversity. So it's not their fault. The fault is people... who are the who have become the landlords of Kashmir Every person should be punished as much as if someone from Kashmir remove the name of Mahadev that person should be punished as much as every person should be punished who from Kashmir who is from Saraswati, Sheikh who is from Kashmir, Sheikh who killed Saraswati, there is no punishment for that man's crime.

I can't believe how such a thing so simple as admitting that yes, we were wrong, especially when the people who cry as the gentleman was about human rights and dignity. I apologize to my Dalit brothers and homosexual brothers and sisters and women of Kashmir that yes, Indian state failed you by the continuous application of Article 370 that trampled on your human rights. But you know why some people won't apologize?

Because their whole house of cards and house of placards will come crumbling down. That is the reason. They would have to accept that for 70 years they were following a law in Kashmir that was unjust towards Indians, towards Dalits whom they call brothers.

This is the reason why people still would not say sorry. It's so simple to say sorry. Say sorry.

Anand, one quick question to you based on what Gauhar said. You brought up all these cases of the PSA being applied. One of the reasons we kind of abrogated 370 is because of the fact that we have a lot of people who are not going to be able to get out of this.

precisely because of mal governance. Should the Indian state then be applying the same laws on Kashmir that we then withdrew 374 precisely for that kind of mal governance? Sorry, I didn't understand the... So one of the reasons was the draconian use of laws and discrimination and all of that.

What it doesn't send a good message if the Indian state's first action when it withdraws 370 is to use the same draconian laws against the people, just a different set of... No, there is a point in there. But having also said that, that Kashmir is not Gurgaon. There are 100,000 Indian troops over there. The situation is very different.

You know, when a terrorist, Burhan Wani, was killed, for the next three months, Kashmir was in a total lockdown. 10,000 crore loss. 100 people were killed. So, you know, this was the death of a terrorist. This is what happened.

So, you know, of course, as I said, that, you know, I am against the continued incarceration of people because they have to be based on the application and the advice given by the security. And I think... I think it really has been a bit too long in my personal opinion. Having said that, yes, of course, there have to be laws that have to be conscientious. Every law must have a moral and ethical backing.

Otherwise, I would not term it as a law. Okay. Gohar, coming back to you and Chishti sir, after that, I'll come to you. I want you to answer a specific question because we now seem to be stuck in a rut where we're just going two-for-two-for-two.

So I want you to now give us what your opinion of the media coverage, media lockdown, so on and so forth. is because I also want to get other people into that entire media lockdown debate. Yeah, I mean, the coverage by the media based in Noida and Bombay has been very shabby and it's been very one-sided. And especially the local media in Kashmir is totally silenced. Almost all the news editors were taken by the NIA.

And, you know, also the local journalists on a daily basis are being summoned and questioned at Cargo, which is a counterinsurgency grid, and local police stations. And, you know... You know, the oppression is at such a level that it's almost, the views have been criminalized in Kashmir.

And I don't think it's a good idea to celebrate criminalization of opinions. You know, while you do so, you have to understand that these chickens can come home to roost. If you celebrate this criminalization of ideas in Kashmir, tomorrow this can happen to you as well. There is no problem when you form a coalition government with Mahbubah Mufti, then she's a good partner to have. There is no problem when you receive the Huryat delegation in Delhi.

But now because of the change, now everything is, you know, now they are all evil. So that's the problem. You know, you have to understand facts.

How for political reasons, how with a civilizational and ideological view, all these decisions are taken. There's no politics. It's all a civilizational view that this is a place where we have to suppress this place called Kashmir and people called Kashmiris. Thank you very much.

Last words to Jamia before we hit the audience question round. If I, if I tell you in detail, without consuming, without taking so much time, if I tell you in detail, if all this is happening, then prevention is better than cure for the benefit of the country. Last line, Vivek.

If Kashmir India becomes a part of India with the same pride and love, then this responsibility should not be left only on Kashmirians, this responsibility should also be ours and we can set an example. You know, the more you can exchange your thoughts and ideas with each other, you have to integrate them by showing them the greatness of India, then only they will be tempted to come here because all they get to see is the barbarism of Islamic forces there. Thank you.

Okay, now we need to get into a Q&A round. Right over. Sir, we've got literally two minutes left now. We have to give the audience a chance.

Just one minute. What Vivek bhai has said is absolutely right. We talk about this. What Gauhar bhai has said, when people are clapping, don't feel that it is about humiliation, about Kashmiri. Every Kashmiri is a part of India.

Just like Kashmir is a part of India. So the applause that is being given here is not for humiliation. What is wrong is for what is right.

And this is something that we have to take responsibility for. Vivek bhai... I think it is our responsibility.

Because here in Delhi, 700 years ago, it was said that If there is a heaven in the world, then it is said for Kashmir, then it is here, here, here, in this India. So keeping this in front of us, we have to interact with everyone. Questions? Any questions? Okay, I can only take three.

Please make it short, quick questions. The mics. Can we give the audience this thing?

If you don't mind, I'd prefer to give it to the audience at the back. Quickly, the gentleman there raising his hand. Please just make it a question. No comments. Just quickly a question.

The gentleman in the black and white. If you can quickly give him a mic. Anybody else wants to ask a question?

Raise your hands now. now? The gentleman in the black at the front, I will get to you.

The... Quickly, if you can just ask a quick question. Yeah.

I want to ask... My question is to Mr. Chishti. You know, we have Bhakti tradition, Sai Baba and Mahababa and all.

All these people, you know, form from Bhakti movement. But why do we see that Muslims, you know, generally don't respect this point of view, don't honor this point of view generally? Why do they practice the system of exclusivity? One second, let me just collect a few questions. This gentleman in black standing here?

The gentleman who's standing here? No, no, right here, right here. Thank you, Abhijit sir.

Quickly. I would like to ask a question to the MP from Kashmir. The thing that has not changed since the 70s, since 370s, what has happened now...

Can you please hold the mic closer to your mouth and speak up a bit? Thank you. I am telling him that if you think that Kashmir is closed and everything is in detention, when Kashmir Pandit was released from there in those years, at that time he was asking this question.

Why wasn't the question raised about Kashmir Pandit? Why wasn't the discussion about Kashmir Pandit raised about Kashmir Pandit? Your government was in Kashmir at that time. So, you have to ask the question, why wasn't the question raised about Kashmir Pandit raised?

Why wasn't the question raised about Kashmir Pandit raised? Make it short and trite. Thank you.

Okay, so that's the number of questions. I have to wrap up now. It's a hard start.

Quickly, 30 seconds. Sir, excuse me if I may ask one. Just, I'm very sorry, but I have been listening to all of you.

I've been to Kashmir. I'm a simple person. I want to say that this is not as simple as Mr. Agnihotri said. Ma'am, do you have a question?

I have a question. No, actually, I want to say... Sir, I have...

Ma'am, this isn't for comments. Do you have a question? Please identify who you want to ask the question to and ask the question. I will tell you that I... I want to ask that question to Mr. Gilani because I met a lot of young people there and most of them said, Aap kya India se aaye ho?

Everybody was identifying, ki India alag cheez hai kya? Maine ka tum bhi toh India me rehte ho? Nahi nahi, aap toh India se aaye ho. they are this thing with the tourists what is the question no no no no questions no more questions please sit down no no no no no last one question no no no no more questions no more questions we have to end now enough go ahead why it's not been practiced Look, the problem of Kashmir is that all the prosecutions that took place there The prosecutions that took place there for Kashmir and along with that You saw how the Sufis were attacked by the terror attack Terrorists, terrorists who are there They are Kashmiri or Kashmiri culture representatives or they bring Kashmirism to the fore.

The terrorists are there for their political interests. They were successful in many ways in order to instabilitize them. We heard the blasts of the blasts of the blasts.

We never heard how people were killed there. How they were taken out. So today when we collectively talk about this, to establish peace, we have to take the trust of every Kashmiri.

And all our Kashmiri Pandit brothers, who are standing there with them, who have been oppressed by the Sufis, they too have to stand with them. That is why our culture, Kashmir, which was called, Atal Bihari Wajpayee Sai said, Jammu-riyat aur Kashmiriyat. When these three things will be lifted, then only we will see the real face of Kashmir.

And I quote this thing every time, I will end here that about our country India, which has been called as the world's guru, what is it? I will repeat the words of Rumi and end my speech by saying that Come, come, come whoever you are, come. even if you have broken your walls of repentance come, our doors, our India, our doors is not the door of despair.

And I'm sure that speech will keep you more entertained than this one, hopefully, inshallah. So, thank you guys. You were a great audience.

Thank you all the panelists. Thank you very much. But I'm sure this has really created the prelude and the atmosphere for the same.

All right. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Transcript for:Discussion on Article 370 and Kashmiri Identity

Transcript for:
Discussion on Article 370 and Kashmiri Identity