Transcript for:
Gloria Tapes

[Music] [Music] [Music] so [Music] [Music] psychotherapy is such a personal and private process that it is a mystery to most people who have never gone through it the following series is a unique effort that allows us to sit in on what is ordinarily a very private therapeutic experience an actual patient was courageous enough and considerate enough to allow herself to be photographed while actually engaged in therapy with three different therapists thus we are allowed the privilege of seeing and feeling what really transpires a film series like this in which three therapists distinguished by their different orientations share their therapeutic endeavors has never been made before we therefore wish to express our gratitude to gloria the patient and to her therapists for allowing us to share in their therapeutic adventure this series will be divided into three separate films in the first film we see dr carl rogers founder of client centered therapy interviewing gloria in film number two dr frederick pearls founder of gestalt therapy is working with her and in film number three dr albert ellis founder of rational emotive therapy is our therapist each therapist will first describe his system of therapy briefly he will then demonstrate his work with gloria and then he will comment briefly on his work now here's dr carl rogers [Music] from my own years of therapeutic experience i have come to feel that if i can create the proper climate the proper relationship the proper conditions a process of therapeutic movement will almost inevitably occur in my client may ask what is this climate what what are these conditions will they exist in the interview with the woman i'm about to talk with whom i've never seen before let me try to describe very briefly what these conditions are as i see them first of all one question is can i be real in the relationship this uh has come to have an increasing amount of importance to me over the years i feel that genuineness is another way of describing the quality i would like to have i like the term congruence by which i mean what i'm experiencing inside is present in my awareness and comes out through my communication in a sense when i have this quality i'm i'm all in one piece in the relationship um there's another word that describes it for me i feel it in the relationship i would like to have a transparency i would be quite willing for my client to see all the way through me that there would be nothing nothing hidden and when i'm real in this fashion that i'm trying to describe them i know that uh my own feelings will will often bubble up into awareness and be expressed but be expressed in ways that won't impose themselves on my client then the second question i would have is will i find myself praising this person uh caring for this person i certainly don't want to pretend a caring that i don't feel in fact if i dislike my client persistently i feel it's better that i should express it but i know that the process of therapy is much more likely to occur and constructive change is much more likely if i feel a real spontaneous pricing of this individual with whom i'm working a prizing of this person as a separate individual you can call that quality acceptance you can call it caring you can call it a non-possessive love if you wish i think any of those terms tend to describe it i know that the relationship will prove more constructive if it's present then the third quality will i be able to understand the inner world of this individual from the from the inside can i will i be able to see it through her eyes will i be able to be sufficiently sensitive to move around inside the world of her feelings so that i know what it feels like to be her so that i can sense not only the surface meanings but some of the meanings that lie somewhat underneath the surface i know that if i can let myself uh sensitively and accurately enter into her world of experience then change and therapeutic movement are much more likely well suppose i am fortunate and that i do experience some of these attitudes in the relationship what then well then a variety of things are likely to happen both from my clinical experience and from our research investigations we find that if uh attitudes of the sort that i've described are present then quite a number of things will happen she'll explore some of her feelings and attitudes more deeply she's likely to discover some hidden aspects of herself that she wasn't aware of previously feeling herself prized by me it's quite possible she'll come to prize herself more feeling that some of her meanings are understood by me then she can more readily perhaps listen to herself listen to what's going on within her own experience listen to some of the meanings she hasn't been able to catch before and perhaps if she senses a realness in me she'll be able to be a little more real within herself i suspect there will be a change in the manner of her expression at least this has been my experience in other instances from being rather remote from her experiencing remote from what's going on within her it's possible that she'll move toward more immediacy of experiencing that she will be able to sense and express what's going on in her in the immediate moment from being disapproving of herself it's quite possible she will move toward a greater degree of acceptance of herself from somewhat of a fear of relating she may move toward being able to relate more directly and to encounter me more directly from construing life in somewhat rigid black and white patterns she may move toward more tentative ways of construing her experience and of seeing the meanings in it from a locus of evaluation which is outside of herself it's quite possible she will move toward recognizing a greater capacity within herself for making judgments and and drawing conclusions so those are the some of those are some of the changes that we if i have any success in creating the kind of conditions that i described initially then we may be able to see some of these changes in this client even though i know in advance that our contact is going to be very brief good morning hi i'm dr rogers you must be glorious yes i am we have half an hour together and i really don't know what we'll be able to make of it but i hope we can make something of it be glad to know whatever concerns you well i'm right now i'm nervous but i feel more comfortable the way you're talking in a little voice and i don't feel like you'll be so harsh on me but uh i i hear the tremor in your voice uh well the main thing i want to talk to you about is uh i'm just newly divorced and uh i had gone in therapy before and i felt comfortable when i left and all of a sudden now the biggest change is adjusting to my single life [Music] and one of the things that bother me the most is especially men and having them into the house and how it affects the children and [Music] the biggest thing i want the thing keeps coming to my mind i want to tell you about is i have a daughter nine who at one time i felt i had a lot of emotional problems i wish i could stop shaking and uh i'm real conscious of things affecting her i don't want her to get upset i don't want to shock her i want so bad for her to accept me and we're real open with each other especially about sex and the other day she saw a girl that was single the pregnant and she asked me all about can girls get pregnant if they're single and the conversation was fine and i wasn't unat ease at all with her until she asked me if i'd ever made love to a man since i left her daddy and i lied to her and ever since that it keeps coming up to my mind because i feel so guilty lying to her because i never lie and i want her to trust me and i want i almost want an answer from you i want you to tell me if it will set you wrong if i told her the truth or would and it's this concern about her and the fact that you really aren't that this open relationship that has existed between you now you feel it's kind of yes i feel like i have to be on guard about that because i remember when i was a little girl when i first found out my mother father made love it was dirty and terrible and i didn't i didn't like her anymore for a while and i don't want to lie to pammy either and i don't know i sure wish i could give you the answer as to what you should tell her i'm afraid you're going to say that because what you really want is an answer i want to especially know if it would affect her if i was completely honest and open with her or if it would affect her because i lied i feel like it's bound to make us dream because i lied to her she'll suspect that or she will know something's not quite right outside she'll distrust me yes and also i thought well she would about when she gets a little older and she finds herself in touchy situations she probably wouldn't want to admit it to me because she thinks i'm so good and so sweet and yet i'm afraid she could think i'm really a devil and i want so bad for her to accept me and i don't know how much a nine-year-old can take and really both alternatives can say that she might think you're too good or better than you really are yes and she might think that you're worse than you are not worse than i am i don't know if she can accept me the way i i think i paint a picture that i'm all sweet and motherly and i'm a little ashamed of my shady side too let's see it really cuts a little deeper if she really knew you would she could she accept you this is what i don't know yes i don't want her to turn away from me and i don't even know how i feel about it because there are times when i feel so guilty like when i have a man over i even try to make a special setup so that if i were ever alone with him the children would never catch me and that sort of thing because i'm real weary about it and yet i also know i have these desires so it's quite clear it isn't only her problem or the relationship with her it's in you as well what can i accept myself as doing yeah yes and you realize that you set up sort of subdivisions so to make sure that that you're not caught or something you realize that you are acting from guilt is that yeah i don't like the i would like to feel comfortable with whatever i do if i choose not to tell pami the truth to feel comfortable that she can't handle it and i don't i want to be honest and yet i feel there are some areas that i don't even accept if you can't accept them in yourself how could you possibly be comfortable in telling them to hurt right and yet does he say you do have these desires and you do have your feelings but but you don't feel good about them right [Music] and i i i haven't thought you're just going to sit there and let me steal it like i want more i want you to help me get rid of my guilt feeling if i can get rid of my guilt feeling about lying or going to bed with a single man any of that just so i can feel more comfortable [Music] and i guess i'd like to say no i don't want to let you just stew in your feelings but on the other hand i i also feel that this is the kind of very private thing that i couldn't possibly answer for you that i sure as anything will try to help you work toward your own accent i don't know if that makes any sense to you but i mean it well i appreciate you saying that you sound like you mean it but i don't know where to go i don't begin to know where to go i thought that i pretty well worked over most of my guilt and now that this is coming up i'm disappointed in myself i really am i want i like it when i feel that no matter what i do even if it's against my own morals or my upbringing that i can still feel good about me and now i don't like uh there's a girl at work who sort of mothers me and she just she's i think she thinks i'm all sweet and i sure don't want to show my more ornery devilish side with her i want to be sweet and it's so hard for me this all seems so new again and it's so disappointing yeah i get the disappointment that here a lot of these things you thought you'd work through and now the guilt and the feeling that only a part of you is acceptable to anybody else yes that keeps coming out [Music] i guess i do catch the real deep puzzlement that you feel as to what the hell shall i do can i yes and you know what i can find doctor is that everything i start to do that i impulse it seems natural to tell pam here or to go out on a day or something i'm comfortable until i think how i was affected as a child and the minute that comes up and i'm all haywire like uh i want to be a good mother so bad and i feel like i am a good mother but then there's those little exceptions like my guilt with working i want to work and it's so fun having extra money i like to work nights the minute i think i'm not being real good to the children or giving them enough time then i start feeling guilty again then that's when i'm it's a what do they call it a double vine that's just what it feels like i want to do this and it feels right but after all i'm not being a good mother and i want to be both i'm becoming more and more aware of what a perfectionist i am that's what it seems like i want to be so perfect either i want to become perfect in my standards or not have that need anymore or i guess i hear it a little differently but uh what you want is to seem perfect but it means it's a great matter of great importance to you to be a good mother and you want to seem to be a good mother even if some of your actual feelings differ from that is that yeah i don't feel like i'm saying that no that isn't what i feel really i want to approve of me always but my actions won't let me i want to prove me [Music] i i realize you all right but let me because i'd like to understand that these times that your actions are kind of outside of you you want to approve of you [Music] but what you do somehow won't let you approve of yourself right [Music] like i feel that i could approve of myself regarding for example my sex life this is the big thing if i really fell in love with a man and i respected him and i adored him i don't think i feel so guilty going to bed with him and i don't think i'd have to make up any excuses to the children because they could see my natural caring form but when i have the physical desire and i'll say oh well why not and i want to anyway then i feel guilty afterwards i hate facing the kids i don't like looking at myself and i rarely enjoy it and this is what i mean if the circumstances would be different i don't think i feel so guilty because i feel right about it yeah i guess i hear you saying if if what i was doing when i went to bed with a man was really genuine and full of love and respect and so on i wouldn't feel guilty in relation to pam i wouldn't uh i really would be comfortable about this that's how i feel yes and i know that sounds like i want a perfect situation but that is how i feel and in the meantime i can't stop these desires i've tried that also i've tried saying okay i don't like myself when i do that so i won't do it anymore but then i resent the children i think why should they stop me from doing what i want and it's really not that bad but i guess i heard you saying too that isn't only the but i guess i heard you saying too that isn't only the children you don't like it as well when it really isn't i'm sure that i know that's it probably even more so than i'm aware of but i only notice it so much when i pick it up in the children then i can also notice it myself somehow sometimes you kind of feel like blaming them for the feelings you have i mean why should they cut you off from a normal sex life well a sex life i could say not normal because there is something about me that says that's not very healthy to just go into sex because you feel physically attractive or something or a physical need so something about it tells me that's not quite right anyway that you feel really that at times you are acting in ways that are not in occurred with your own inner standards right right but then you were also saying a minute ago but you feel you can't help that to either i wish i could that's it and i can't now i feel like uh i can't control myself as well as i could have before for a specific reason now i can i just let go and i am there's too many things i do wrong that i have to feel guilty for and i sure don't like that i want you very much to give me a direct answer and i'm going to ask it and i don't expect a direct answer but i want to know do you feel that to me the most important thing is to be open and honest and if i can be open and honest with my children do you feel that it could harm them if for example i could say to pammy i was i felt bad lying to you family and i want to tell you the truth now and if i tell her the truth and she's shocked at me and she's upset that that could bother her more i mean i want to get rid of my guilt and that will help me but i don't want to put them on her that's right do you think that could hurt her concern i guess i'm sure this will sound evasive to you but it seems to me that perhaps the person you're not being fully honest with is you [Music] because i was very much struck by the fact that you were saying if i feel all right about what i have done what is going to bed with a man or what if i really feel all right about it then i don't have any concern about what i would tell him or my relationship with him right all right now i hear what you're saying [Music] and all right then i want to work on i want to work on accepting me then i want to work on feeling all right about it so that makes sense that that'll come natural and then i won't have to worry about him but when things don't seem so wrong for me and i have an impulse to do them how can i accept that what you'd like to do is to feel more accepting towards yourself when you do things that you feel are wrong is that right right and i feel like i feel like yeah i feel like you're going to say now why do you think they're wrong and i have mixed feelings there too through therapy i'll say now look i know this is natural women feel it sure we don't talk about a lot socially but all women feel it and it's very natural i've had sex for the last 11 years i'm of course going to want it but i still think it's wrong unless you're really truly in love with a man and my body doesn't seem to agree and so i don't know how to accept it sounds like a triangle to me doesn't it you feel it i or therapists in general or other people say it's all right it's all right it's natural enough go ahead um and i guess you feel your body sort of lines up on that side of the picture but something in you says but i don't like it that way not unless it's really [Music] right [Music] but i have a hopeless feeling [Music] i mean these are all the things i sort of feel myself and i feel the okay now what did you feel this is the conflict and it's just insoluble and therefore it's hopeless and here you look to me and i don't seem to give you any help than that right i am i really know you can't answer for me and i have to figure it out myself but i want you to guide me or show me where to start or so it won't look so hopeless i know i can keep living with this conflict and i know eventually things would work out but i like feeling more comfortable with the way i live and i'm not [Music] one thing i meant to ask what is it you wish i would say to you i wish you would say to me to be honest and take the risk that pam is going to accept me and i also have a feeling if i could really risk it with pami of all people that i'd be able to see here's this little kid that can accept me and i'm really not that bad if she really knows what a demon i am and still loves me and accepts me it seems like it would help me to accept me more like it's really not that bad i want you to say to go ahead and be honest but i don't want the responsibility that it would upset her that's why i don't want to take responsibility you know very well what you'd like to do in a relationship you would like to be yourself and you'd like to have her know that you're not perfect and do things that maybe even she wouldn't approve of that you disapprove of to some degree yourself but that somehow she would love you and accept you as an imperfect person like i wonder if my mother had been more open with me maybe i wouldn't have had such a narrow attitude about sex if i would have thought that she could be you know pretty sexy and orange and devilish too but i would look at her as being such a sweet mother that she could also be the other side but she didn't talk about that maybe that's where i got my picture i don't know but i want penny to see me as a full woman but also accept me you don't sound so uncertain i don't what do you mean what i mean is you've been sitting there telling me just what you would like to do in that relationship with pam i would but i don't want to quite take the risk of doing it unless my tells me that it's i guess one thing that i feel very keenly is it's an awfully risky thing to live you'd be taking a chance on your relationship with her and taking a chance and letting her know who you are really yeah even if i don't take a chance if i feel loved and accepted by her i'm never gonna feel good about it anyway if if her love and acceptance of you is based on a false picture of you what the hell is the good of that is that that's what it is but i also feel there's a lot of responsibility with being a mother with i don't i don't want to feel like i caused any big traumas in the children i don't like all that responsibility i think that's it i don't like it feeling it could be my fault i guess that's what i meant when i said life is risky to take the responsibility for being the person you would like to be with her is a hell of a responsibility it is a very frightening one you know i look at it two ways i like to see myself as being so honest with the kids and really being proud of myself though that no matter what i told them or no matter how bad they might think i was i was honest and down deep it's going to be a much more wholesome relationship and yet you know i get jealous of like when they're with their daddy i feel he's more flipped he's not quite as real he's not quite as honest but nevertheless they see a sweet picture of their dad you know he's all good with some light and i'm envious of that too i want them to see me just as sweet as they see him and yet i know he's not quite as real with them so it seems like i've got to swap the one for the other and i know this is really what i want the most but uh i miss some of that glory yeah i sort of feel i want them to have just as nice a picture of me as they have of their dad that is a little funny then maybe mine will have to be too i think that's pretty a little too strong that's close that is what i mean so uh i know she can't have that need a picture of me if i were honest besides that i do feel i'm a little more ornery than their dad anyway so i'm likely to do more things that they disapprove of [Music] sounds like you really find it quite hard to believe they would really love you if they knew you that's right you know that's exactly it before therapy [Music] i know she can't have that need a picture of me if i were honest besides that i do feel i'm a little more ornery than their dad anyway so i'm likely to do more things that they disapprove of [Music] some of you really find it quite hard to believe that they would really love you if they knew you that's right you know that's exactly it before therapy i would have definitely chosen the other area i'm going to get respect from them no matter what even if i have to lie i see right now i know that's not true and i'm not positive they'll truly accept me something tells me they will i know they will but i'm not positive i want reinsurance i keep wanting these things you're in kind of a no-man's land of probably shifting from one point of view toward them to another but boy you'd sure like somebody to say that's right you go ahead and do it yes that's why i get encouraged when i read in a book from somebody i respect and admire that this is the right thing no matter what honesty will win out well then that keeps giving me confidence by gosh i'm right that it's so damn hard to really choose something on their own isn't it which makes me feel very immature i don't like this i mean i wish i were growing up enough or mature enough to make my decisions and stick by them but i need somebody to help me on somebody to push me [Music] so you kind of approach yourself for that i guess and feel what if i was anybody or if i was grown up i'd be mature enough to decide things like this for myself right and take more risks i wish i'd take more risks i wish that i could just go ahead and be this and say however the children grow up i've done my best i didn't have to constantly have this conflict and i'd like later just to say no matter what you asked me kids at least i told you the truth you may not have liked it but it's been the truth that somehow i can admire i i disrespect people that lie i hate it so you see what a double barn i am in i hate myself if i'm bad but i also hate myself if i lie so it's accepting i want to become more accepting and i guess judging from your tone of voice you sound as though you hate yourself more when you lie than you do in terms of things you disapprove i do because this has really bothered me this happened with family about a month ago and it keeps coming to my mind i don't know whether to go back and talk to her about it oh wait she may have even forgotten what she asked me but uh you haven't forgotten i have no i haven't i'd like to at least be able to tell her that i remember lying and i'm sorry i lied and it's been driving me bugs because i did [Music] i don't know i feel like now that's solved and i didn't even solve the things but i feel relieved i am i do feel like you've been saying to me you're not giving me advice but i feel like you're saying you really want to you know what pattern you want to follow gloria and go ahead and follow it i sort of feel backing up from you [Music] i guess the way i sense it is you've been telling me that you know what you want to do and yes i do believe in backing up people and what they want to do [Music] it's just a little different slant than the way it seems to you [Music] are you telling me the one thing that concerns me is [Music] it's no damn good you're doing something that you haven't really chosen to do that's why i'm trying to help you find out what your own inner choices are and there's also a conflict there because i'm not really positive what i want to do the lying part yes but i'm not positive what i want to do when i go against myself like when i bring a man to the house i'm not sure i want to do that if i feel guilty afterwards i must not have really wanted to i'm interested that you say i'm not just sure which words you use but you don't want it you don't like yourself or you're not approved when you do something against yourself you know this is so different now this kind of thing that we're talking about now it isn't just knowing whether you want to do something or not if i want to go to work in the morning or i don't want to go to work that's easy but when i find myself doing something i don't feel comfortable with i automatically say if you're not comfortable gloria it's not right something's wrong all right now what i want to ask you is how can i know which is the scholars because i do it does that mean that's the strongest and yet if i disapprove that's just part of the thing that's got to go along with it see it sounds like you're i'm picking up a contradiction i'm not i'm not falling sound like you're feeling a contradiction in yourself too although what i heard you saying in part is uh the way you like it is when you feel really comfortable about what you're doing yes and i have at times when i've made a decision now that seems right that seems perfectly right no conflict but then there are times i do things that i feel uncomfortable with so that there is a conflict there it's not the same at all so what i'm saying is how do i really know when i'm following my true feelings if i have conflicts afterwards or guilt afterwards i see because in the moment it may seem like your true feelings yes like if i'm starting to do it okay so that really is tough when if you feel comfortable in the moment about it but then afterward don't feel comfortable which course of action was really the one you should have followed you know the most outstanding thing i don't know if you're following me when i say about this conflict but one thing i know is i've wanted for example to leave my husband for quite a few years i never did it i kept thinking how nice it would be or how scary it would be but i never did it and all of a sudden when i did it felt right i didn't feel mean toward him i just knew this is what i had to do that's when i know i'm following myself i'm following my feelings completely i have no conflict there so many happy things came from it but i still have no conflict that to me is when i'm following my feelings and in everyday life the small little decisions the small little things to do don't come out that clear at all so many conflicts come around okay is this natural although you're saying uh i expect it is but but you're saying too that you know perfectly well a feeling within yourself that occurs when you're really doing something that's right for you i do i do and i miss that feeling other times and it's right away a clue to me you can really listen to yourself sometimes realize no this isn't the right feeling this isn't this isn't the way i would feel if i was doing what i really wanted to do but yet many times i'll go along and do it anyway and say oh well i'm in the situation now i'll just remember next time uh i've mentioned this word a lot in therapy and most therapists granted me a giggle or something when i say utopia but when i do follow a feeling and i feel this good feeling inside me that's sort of utopia that's what i mean that's the way i like to feel whether it's a bad thing or a good thing but i feel right about me in those utopian moments you really feel kind of whole you feel all in one piece yeah it gives me a choked up feeling when you say that because i don't get that as often as i'd like i like that whole feeling that's real precious to me i expect none of us get it as often as we like but i really do understand that it really does touch you didn't you yeah you know what i also was just thinking i feel dumb saying it uh all of a sudden as i'm talking i thought gee how nice i can talk to you and i want you to approve of me and i respect you but i miss that my father couldn't talk to me like you are i mean i'd like to say chad like you for my father i don't even know why that came to me you look to me like a pretty nice [Music] daughter [Music] but you really do miss the fact that you you couldn't be open with your own brain yeah i couldn't be open but i i want to blame it on him i think i'm more open than hidden on you would never uh listen to me talk like you are and um not disapprove and not lower me down it's yeah i thought of this the other day why do i always have to be so perfect i know why he always wanted me to be perfect i always had to be better and uh fairing yourself and just trying like hell to be the girl he wants you to be at the same time rebelling like i almost started writing in the letter the other day and telling him i'm a waitress which i expect him to disapprove of i go out at night and i almost quoted hitting him back like no how do you like me and yet i really want acceptance and love from him i mean i know he loves so you slept at him and says this is what i see yeah you raised me how do you like it but you know what i think i want him to say i knew this was you all along for me and i really love you i guess you really feel badly but you think there's very little chance you'll say that no he won't he doesn't hear i went back home to him about two years ago really wanting to let him know i loved him although i've been afraid of him he doesn't hear me he just keeps saying things like honey you know i love you you know i've always loved you and he doesn't hear [Music] he's never really known you and loved you and this somehow is what brings the tears inside i don't know what it is he's never really known you and loved you and this somehow is what brings the tears inside i don't know what it is you know when i talk about it it says more flip if i just sit still a minute it feels like a great big hurt down there did i feel cheated unless you it's much easier to [Music] be a little flip because then you don't feel that big lump inside and again that's a hopeless situation i tried working on it and uh i feel it's something i have to accept my father just isn't the type of man i'd really like i'd like somebody more understanding and caring he cares but not in the way that we can cooperate or communicate i feel note that i am permanently cheated [Music] that's why i like substitutes like i like talking to you and i like them that i can respect doctors or my i keep sort of maybe underneath feeling like we're real close you know and it's sort of like a substitute father i don't feel that's pretending they're not really my father no i meant about the real close business well see i sort of pretending to because i can't expect you to feel very close to me you don't know me that well all i can do is what i am feeling that is i feel close to you in this moment in spite of feeling initially the artificiality of the situation and particularly the hot lights i very quickly became oblivious to the outside situation and i think that gloria did too uh in many ways i'm glad that she kept pushing me for an answer to her very personal questions about her sex life and her relationship to her daughter i say i'm glad of this because as the relationship developed it became i think completely clear to her as well as to me that she was seeking something a good deal deeper than that incidentally i'd like to pay my tribute to her uh deep honesty and being willing to talk about herself so freely although every individual is entirely unique and in this respect i was definitely unprepared for and sometimes surprised by the material she brought up still in another sense this was very typical of my experiences in therapy when i'm able really to let myself enter into a relationship and i feel that this was true in this instance then i find myself not only being increasingly moved by being in touch with the inner world of my client but i find myself bringing out of my own inner experience statements which seem to have no connection with what's going on but which usually proved to be uh or proved to have a very significant relationship to what the client is experiencing i felt there were one or two incidents of this kind in this brief interview i was genuinely moved i probably showed it by the fact that she told me near the end of the contact that she saw me as the father she would like to have my reply was also a thoroughly spontaneous one that she seemed to me like a pretty nice daughter [Music] i guess i feel that we're only playing with the real world of relationships when we talk about such an experience in terms of transference and counter transference uh i feel quite deeply about that i i want to say yes we can put this experience into some such uh highly intellectualized framework but when we do that it completely misses the point of the very immediate i vow quality of the relationship at such moments i felt that gloria and i really encountered each other and that in some small but i believe lasting way we were each of us enriched by the experience i'm saying these things almost immediately after the conclusion of the interview and as is characteristic of me there are not more than one or two statements or incidents which i recall from the interview i simply know that i was very much present in the relationship that i lived it in the moment of its occurrence and i realized that after a time i may begin to remember it too but at the present time i really have a very non-specific memory of the whole interview i'll try to look at it though a little bit more from intellectual rather than a strictly feeling point of view gloria showed what i've come to feel are characteristic elements of therapeutic movement in the first part of the interview she was talking about her feelings and they were past feelings she was talking about aspects of her behavior and of herself as if she didn't quite own them she was looking outside herself for a center or locus of evaluation some source of authority she saw some of the things she was talking about in fairly black and white fashion by the end of the interview she was experiencing her feelings in the immediate moment not only as evidenced by her tears but by her ability to express very directly and with immediacy her feelings turned me she was also much more aware of her ability to make her own judgments and and choices i guess uh put in terms that have become somewhat commonplace you could say that she moved from the there and then of her life to the here and now of elements that she was discovering in herself and feelings which she was experiencing in the moment in her relationship with me all in all i feel good about the interview i guess i feel good about myself in the interview and like gloria i feel very real regret that the relationship cannot continue [Music] i'm to interview a patient and i'd like to give you some thumbnail sketch of what gestalt therapy stands for gestape is working on an equation awareness equal present time equal reality in contrast to depth psychology we try to get hold of the obvious of the surface of the situation in which we find ourselves and to develop the emerging gestalt strictly on the eye and thou here and now basis any escape into the future or the past is examined as a likely resistance against the ongoing encounter a modern man has alienated given up so much of his potential that his ability to cope with his existence becomes badly impoverished my aim is this the patient should recover his lost potential he should integrate the conflicting polarities understand the difference between game playing especially the playing of verbal games on the one hand and of genuine authentic confident behavior on the other the civil war of inner conflicts weakens the efficiency and comfort of the patient but every bit of integration will strengthen it now in the safe emergency of the therapeutic situation i repeat in the safe emergency of the therapeutic situation the patient begins to take risks and to transform his energies from manipulating the environment for support into developing greater greater self-support that is reliance on his own resources this process is called maturation once the patient has learned to stand on its own feet emotionally intellectually and economically his need for therapy will collapse he will wake up from the nightmare of his existence the basic technique is this not to explain things to the patient but to provide the patient with opportunities to understand and to discover himself for this purpose i manipulate and frustrate the patient in such a way that he's confronting himself in this process he identifies with his lost potential for instance through assimilating his projections by acting out by acting out the alien parts of himself principally i consider any interpretation to be a therapeutic mistake as this would imply that the therapist understands the patient better when the patient himself takes away from the patient the chance of discovering himself by himself and prevents him from finding out his own values and style on the other hand i disregard most of the content of what the patient says and concentrate most on the non-verbal level as this is the only witch only one which is less subject to self-deception in his verbal pseudo-self-expression on the non-verbal level the relevant question will always emerge and can dealt with in the here and now we are going to have an interview for half an hour by the way i'm scared you say you're scared but you're smiling i don't understand how one can be scared and smile at the same time and i'm also suspicious of you i think you understand very well i think you know that when i get scared i laugh or i can't to cover up but do we have stage for us i don't know i'm mostly aware of you i'm afraid that uh i'm afraid you're going to have such a direct attack that uh you're going to get me in the corner and i'm afraid of it i want you to be more on my side i get you into your corner you put your hand on your chest is this your corner well it's like yeah it's like i'm afraid you know where would you like to go can you describe the corner you'd like to go to yeah uh it's back in the corner where where i'm completely protected they would be safe of me for me well i know i wouldn't really well and then you feel safer yes i made you wear in this corner you're perfectly safe now what would you do in that corner i just said mr just sit yes how long would you sit i don't know but this is so funny as you're saying this this reminds me of when i was a little girl every time i was afraid i feel better sitting in a corner okay are you a little girl well no but it's the same feeling are you a little girl this feeling reminds me of it are you no no no no at last how old are you and you're not a little girl yeah okay so you're a 30 year old girl who's afraid of a guy like me well i don't even know about i don't know i'll be afraid of you you i get real defensive with you now what can i do to you you can't do anything but i can sure feel dumb and i can feel stupid for not having the right answers now what would it do for you to feel dumb and stupid i hate it when i'm stupid what would it do for you to be dumb and stupid but it put it like this what would it do to me if you would play dumb and stupid that makes you all the smarter and all the higher above me then i really have to look up to you because you're so smart yeah oh yeah and butter me up no i think you can do that all by yourself i think the other way around if you play dumb and stupid you force me to be more explicit that's been said to me before but i don't buy it i don't know what are you doing with your feet now wiggling them what's the joke now oh i'm afraid you're going to notice everything i do gee i want you to help me become more relaxed yes i don't want to be so defensive with you i don't like to feel so defensive um you're acting like you're treating me as if i'm stronger than i am and i want you to protect me more and be nicer to me are you aware of your smile you don't believe a worldwide i do too but i know you're going to pick on me for it it's your your blob your phone do you believe you're meaning that seriously yeah if you see you're afraid and you laugh and you giggle and you squirm it's falling you put in the performance for me oh i i resent that very much can you express it yes sir i most certainly am not being phony i i will admit this it's hard for me to show my embarrassment and i hate to be embarrassed but boy i resent you calling me a phony just because i smile when i'm embarrassed or i'm put in a corner doesn't mean i'm being a phony wonderful thank you you didn't smell for the last minute well i'm mad at you i uh that's right you didn't have to cover up your anger with your smile now in that moment in that minute you were not approached well at that minute i was mad though i wasn't embarrassed when you met you're not a phony i still resent that i'm not a so i can pick on you just as much as you're picking on me okay pick up me i have to wait till you say something that i can pick on but what does this mean can you develop this movement it's uh i can't find words i want to develop this as if you went dancing i want to start all over again with you okay i know what corner i'd like to put you on i'd like to ask you a question and because i have a feeling you don't like me right off the bat and i want to know if you do can you now play fritz spells not liking gloria what would he say he'd say that she's a phony for one so you are a phone you're a phony and you're a flip little girl and you're a show-off what would answer to that i i know what i'd answer i'd say i think you are too you'll say tell this to me you tell me what the phony i am see if it's your fault well for me is not quite the right word but it's more like uh a show-off for sure i can know all the answers yeah and i want you to be more human and that doesn't seem very human to me you know other answers it's not for you yeah right away find out how i'm kicking my feet and why am i doing like this why are you doing like that oh dear i've got eyes i can see you're kicking your feet i don't need a scientific computer to see that you're kicking your feet what's big about that you don't need to be wise to see that you're kicking your feet i know but it seems like you're trying to find some reason for it i don't it's your imagination okay i know what i'd like from you can i tell you what i'd like for you yeah i'd like you to be aware that i'm kicking my feet and to be aware that i'm giggling when i'm really nervous and accept it instead of putting me on the defense of having to explain it i don't want to have to explain why i'm doing these things did i ask you to explain you said why am i or what am i doing well what am i doing you said that's kicking your feet i didn't ask you to explain it is your imagination that's not this for it it's the first of your imagination it's a big difference now do this again again how do you feel now i don't know pretty stupid i'm not playing stupid this is pretty stupid you did something with your hair there is when you change something in my hair what you object to no no okay no but i your your hair and your features go along with the feeling i had about you earlier i had a feeling i could be afraid of you and you're the type of person that seems like you demand so much respect and so you're please pay for it i demand so much respect play this foot you just saw well you know how smart i am i know more about psychology than you do gloria so anything i say of course is right can you say the same as gloria something similar as global with the same act as glory i demand respect because i don't know no i don't i identify it with my father but not me i don't feel i demand respect you don't do mental speech no sure as a matter of fact i'd like more i'd like you to respect me more well you see so you demand whisper all right yes yes doesn't matter if i could demand respect from you i would but do it who's preventing you except yourself because i feel if i get myself out on the corner you're going to let me just drown you're not going to help me one bit and i know that i can't quite come up to standards with you what should i do when you're the crow encourage me to come out oh you don't have enough courage to come out by yourself you need somebody pull a little mems and distress out of a car yeah so anytime you want somebody to uh pay attention to you call into a corner and wait to rescue your cops yes that's exactly what i'd like and this is what i call phone pardon me this is what i call phone why is it phony i'm admitting to you what i am how is that a phony that is a phony because it's a trick it's a gimmick to call into a corner and wait there until somebody comes to your rescue i'm admitting it i know what i'm doing i'm not being phony i'm not pretending i'm so brave i resent that i feel like you're saying unless i come out openly and stand on my own i'm not a phony baloney i'm just just as real sitting in that corner as i am out here all by myself but you're not sitting in that car well not now and besides that it's like passing judgment when you call me phony i just hate that anyway now we're getting somewhere i call anybody phony who puts an act and if you like somebody and you want to meet this person to go to this person tell them i would like to meet you i would call not for me but if you couragely go into that corner waiting to be rescued this i called for this and i still think you're judgmental you know what i have a feeling you've never felt this way in your life you feel so secure that you don't have to feel anybody that does something like this you're going to pass judgment on there being a phony well i resent it good now play fritz passing judgment you are you're sitting up there in your gold chair i am fritz i passed judgement has catchment on me now i don't feel close to you at all dr pearls i feel that's phony i feel like you're playing one big game right i'm sure you're playing games but in spite of the games i think i've touched you now and then i think i helped you when i called your phone well of course you did and i think i hit the bull's eye that's why you feel hot i don't know all i know is when somebody when i feel the way i feel with you right now i it's like you don't have feelings all right now exaggerate this what you just need that's it don't talk to me i can't i can't i want to laugh i want to i'd like you to be younger than me so i could really scold you how it must be my age 30. good i'm 30 now imagine myself now your school okay don't be so [ __ ] sure yourself don't think you're so doggone smart don't act so proud because you've never been in the corner i think you can be just as big a phony parading around like you're so damn smart you know all the answers as much as me sitting in my corner oh and i like the feeling of you being younger i'd like to really i'd like to embarrass you yeah embarrass me when you give me what you wouldn't get embarrassed you seem unaffected tell me embarrass me think about how ugly i am you don't look old ugly you look distinguished and that gives you that's all the more on your side if you look so distinguished then see that's more on your side too very glorious can you cease one thing we had quite a good fight no i know no i fit i don't think you're fighting with me but i thought you came out quite a bit well i'm mad at you wonderful but you seem so detached you don't even seem to care that i'm mad at you i feel like you're not recognizing me at all dr pearls not a bit this is quite true our contact is much too superficial to be involved in caring i care for you as far as let's see you're right now my client i care for you as far as i like to like an artist bring something out which is hidden in you this as as satisfied here well i'd like you to i'd like to feel that there's some it's frustrating if i were to leave you right now and not see you again it would frustrate me to feel like there hadn't been more contact i feel completely out of contact with you like i'm talking to the baby that doesn't understand me or something like that i don't feel like we're a bit in contact and that oh that frustrates me that bothers me more than being angry with you i'd rather we were angry and fought than to have no contact yeah this reminds me of when my husband and i used to fight he sits there and he listens to me but he's not even aware of how much i hate him and how mad i am at him i'd rather yeah i'd rather affect you you'd really hate me or something and i feel like you're purposely staying out of contact with me how should i be give me your fantasy how could i share you my concern with you i can't say in words i know the feeling i'd see on you but i can't say it's just a feeling like i don't know it's like i want you to respect me more as a human being that i've got feelings now we come back to the beginning so you want respect yes i do i do this is a different kind of respect than i meant the first time but you want you need respect yes i respect you so much as a human being that i refuse to accept a phony part of yourself and address myself to the genuine part right now the last few minutes you were wonderful in january we were not playing anymore i could see you really hurting well i don't feel i've got a right when i don't like somebody or i disagree with somebody who's doing if if i should respect them if they're above me they're superior to me i don't feel i've got a right to really really tell you how mad i am it's that's through a not [ __ ] chicken you're getting back into your safe corner that's the way it feels that's what the safe corner feels like to me now go back to your safe ground because you have to park very soon you steal your safe corner you came out for a moment you nearly met me you could get a little bit angry with me now go back to your safety i feel like you're telling me the only way you respect me as a human being if i'm aggressive and forceful and strong i feel like you couldn't even accept my i'd be scared to death to cry in front of you i feel like you'd laugh at me and call me a phony i feel like you don't accept my weak side only when i'm yelling back at you or hollering at you you mustn't cry in my presence well i wouldn't even give you the satisfaction see this again no say this again i try not to i try not to cry in front of you or show my weak spot for fear you jump on me again i feel that your eyes are moist i'm aware that i feel more chokey yes i feel good could you choke me pretend but not for real why not for me well because i don't hate you that much i don't want to choke my kiss back you want me to choke you so you wouldn't cry i'd like to if i'd like to choke you it would be to make you cry i'd like to see you weak i'd like to see you hurt and and vulnerable what what do this do for you make me feel like i'm i have more of a right to be hurt and you wouldn't jump on me so quick would you jump on me if i would cry no but i would jump on you if you would cry you're sure of this no i'm not sure of it what would you like me to do if you were to cry i went you're smiling you're sliding something off well because i got two feelings i was gonna say i want you to i want you to love me and hug me but then i thought no i don't want to what's your objection i'd be scared to be too close to you now you're getting somebody first you want to be close to me now you're afraid to be too close to me that's what i'm saying but that's right now we got the two points of your existence but they're two different feelings close i mean emotionally but not physically but you've got the two parts of your existence now either far away in the corner or be so close that you can melt into one with other person it appears you travel between the two extremes i do you know what i'm thinking when i am really hurt and really upset about something and i want someone to love me like my girlfriend will do it a lot and she'll come up to hug me i don't i don't want it exactly see that's what i'm talking about you cannot sustain contact okay this is garbage but are you afraid if you went too close to your girlfriend if you let her hug you um the only thing i'm aware of is like when i perspire it embarrasses me that should feel how wet i am and it should hold my body up close and i don't know are you aware of your facial expression kind of disgusting yes i am do this more it's just okay i can just feel what it is i don't like it can you say this to me it's your icky no no what's your difficulty because i feel like if you really believe me that would hurt your feelings oh you must know my feelings well i thought i was so indifferent as you see before that though nothing could touch me now you suddenly discovered a way to touch me isn't it well you know what i believe i believe you're the type of person sort of like me that you act like it wouldn't hurt your feelings but it really would you act strong but you're you're soft and vulnerable inside there too i think your feelings could be heard sure but i don't think you'd show it very easy what would i do how would i conceal my feelings by turning it back on me by saying now what did you get from that gloria you turned the whole thing back on me instead of showing how hurt you were now can you see this two foots how did you what did you get out of this friends say this to me would you get out of what what you just said just for sentence sure i know what you'd get out of it if i said what did you get out of this stretch you'd say nothing it didn't bother me it was you that did it you still wouldn't let me know you were hurt but i know what it would be if you told your true feelings that you didn't want to show your hurt so you covered it up same way with me in the corner not if i were her if i would cry what would you do with me you would be you wouldn't be so superior to me you'd be more vulnerable and i could pacify you and make you feel better you could hug me yes and i could be the baby yes yes i'd like that you'd feel more on my level i wouldn't have to feel so dumb with you and the other way around you would have to be my baby she would cry he would like to play the baby and be comfortable and heart and the poor thing i'd like that too but i'll tell you something i think we came to a nice closure we came to a little bit of understanding i think we finished this situation right all right the demonstration was in my opinion quite successful and consistent with my theoretical outlook the avoidance of the genuine encounter manifested itself in three ways the patient was first taking control by putting on a smiling sophisticated phony mask of oscillating between the pretense of being frightened and yet at the same time having me figured out thus being or believing to be fully in control of the situation secondly she was withdrawing by fantasizing of hiding in a corner thirdly she was blocking the real encounter of melting through crying which then would have been the real emotional meaning of this meeting the patient was capable of identifying herself with several fantasies she had projected onto me she was this was especially evident with regard to her initial denial for a need to be respected the need for environmental support started to come out besides so need to get respected it was verbalized in a wish to be cared for rescued from the corner and so on i broke up the session when the first tears began to appear she began to play the role of a lonely child and apparently wanted to be hugged and comforted but here too the assimilation of her projection began to work and she began to experience holding me like a baby apart from assisting here assimilating in some projections the main therapeutic factor was to show how the inconsistency of a verbal and non-verbal behavior for instance saying that she was frightened and smiling at the same time the frightened person does not smile where i feel it was in the direction of embarrassment this embarrassment was protected by her brazenness and anger to get to her existing existential embarrassment we would have to work through and eliminated the phoniness that is the ease with which we can superficially assume any role that is required for a specific situation this pseudo adaptation is her way of coping with life this is about what i got out of this session rational therapy a rational emotive therapy also called rt for short is based on several fundamental propositions or hypotheses and the first of these is that the past is not crucial in a person's life the past affects him a good deal but he affects himself much more than the past affects him because no matter what he has learned during his historical development the only reason why these things that have happened to him and have been told to him affect him today is because he is still re-indoctrinating himself with the same philosophies of life the same values that he usually imbibed and taught himself to early in his childhood so we stick largely in the present in rational emotive psychotherapy rather than in the past and we believe that today the individual experiences negative emotions self-defeating behavior inefficiencies because he now is indoctrinating himself with what we call simple exclamatory sentences which involve ideas human beings can tell themselves ideas in all kinds of languages in pictures in sign languages and non-verbal expression in math for example but they normally speak to themselves in simple english if english is their native tongue and when they talk to themselves in an irrational or an illogical way then they create they literally create their negative feelings or emotions in the behavior that follows their from now just to give an example the individual usually tells himself when he's upset first a sane sentence and then an insane sentence the same sentence is something along the order of i don't like the thing that i've done i dislike my own behavior and that would be fine but unfortunately he follows it with an insane sentence which says to himself and because i don't like my behavior i am a louse i am worthless i am a no good nick and this thoroughly insane sentence which is a sentence of faith unfounded on fact which has no empirical reference which is a kind of superstitious or dogmatically religious system creates what we call his anxiety and through his anxieties depression his guilt his other forms of self-defeatism or again the individual tells himself the same sentence i don't like your behavior when let us say somebody has acted badly with him and instead of following that up with that because i don't like your behavior i can still stand it and i'm going to try to change to get you to change your behavior he says i can't stand your behavior or in an absolutistic god-like grandiose manner you shouldn't be the way you are because i think that i don't like the way you are now it's the second b sentences which upset the individual or another way of putting it as epic fetus a roman philosopher said many years ago it's not what happens to us at point a that upsets us it's b our view of what happens to us and in rational emotive psychotherapy we go after this individual the patient's view and show him that whatever he thinks has upset him usually some external situation what somebody else has done it's really what he's telling himself about this thing this event which upsets him and although he may never be able to do anything about the external event at a he can change the internal event his sentence his belief to himself at b now in rational emotive psychotherapy we try to show the patient three kinds of insight and kind of distinctions to some other therapies which usually emphasize one major kind the first kind we try to show him is that all his behavior especially his negative self-defeating behavior which we're interested which is upsetting him has clear-cut ideological antecedents he may have learned these as i said before in the past but right now today he must still believe these same ideologies else he would not get the negative behavior that flows there from and insight number two which is most important and which is unfortunately neglected in many other systems of psychotherapy is that he being as ernst casira once said a symbolizing animal is continually re-indoctrinating himself with these ideologies and that's the issue that's why he's now disturbed now insight number three is that even when he sees clearly what he's telling himself and that he's telling himself nonsense only by work and practice by continually reassessing and re-valuing his own philosophic assumptions will he ever get better now we also stress the fact that action is necessary to change an individual just talking about things thinking about things is nice but not necessary i should say it's not a necessary condition for a psychotherapeutic can change change what the individual has to do in addition usually is act and we therefore give him concrete homework assignments and get him to act these out and check up and follow to see whether he does these homework assignments and our final goal is to get the individual to learn and learn for the rest of his life to challenge and question his own basic value systems his own thinking so that he really thinks for himself he must do this particularly when he feels miserable he feels anxiety or depression or guilt or too much frustration or anything else that is negative or when he behaves very inefficiently and finally he was able through this kind of new thinking rethinking his own assumptions to apply what we call the scientific method to the facets of human living and to be truly scientific in his behavior to question and challenge his own assumptions as we do in science and thereby to minimize or never entirely to eliminate the terrible anxiety and the atrocious hostility which unfortunately affects most of us in this existence hello gloria i'm not growing yeah [Music] well would you like to tell me what's bothering you most you know i think the things that i'd like to talk to you the most about are adjusting to my single life mostly men i guess um as a matter of fact i don't know if i'm doing the wrong thing but i'm going to refer to your book anyway because this is what i'm impressed with the book about the intelligent woman's guide to manheim yeah i tried to follow it and i believe in it this is why it's so fun reading your book because i'm not much of a reader but i sort of believe the same way you do but then i've got a problem in this area the men that i do i'm attracted to or the type of man i'd like to become closely involved with i can't seem to meet or i get too shy with or something that i don't it just doesn't click the men i seem to be dating nowadays are the ones that i don't respect much the ones i don't enjoy much that seem flip and uninteresting and i don't know if it's something about me or what because i really do want to meet this kind of man well let's talk a little about your shyness let's suppose you meet somebody who you consider eligible that you might like now let's see if we can get at the source of your shyness just what you're telling yourself to create this you meet this man and you feel shy embarrassed yes but i don't usually show that i usually act flip right back yeah i act like the other men act to me as a matter of fact kayak flip i don't seem near as intelligent i act like a typical dumb blonde uh i'm just i'm just not myself with him i'm more on at ease yes well as you probably know from afterman hunting i believe that people only get emotions such as negative emotions of shyness embarrassment shame because they tell themselves something in simple exclamatory sentences now let's try to find out what you're telling yourself you're meeting this individual now what do you think you're saying is up before you get i know what it is that i'm not i don't stand up to his expectations i'm not quite enough for him he's superior to me although i want this type of man i'm afraid i won't have enough to attract him well that's the first part of the sentence that might be a true one because maybe he could be spirit to you in some ways maybe he wouldn't be attracted to you but that would never upset you if you were only saying that i think he may be superior to me now you're adding a second sentence to that which is if this is so that would be awful well not quite so extreme is that because i thought about that too it's usually i've missed my chance again because when i want to become if i want to show the very best of myself because i think i have self-confidence that i have enough to offer but when i get afraid like that then i show all the bad qualities i i'm flip i'm then i'm i'm so much on the defensive that i can't show my good qualities and it's like i missed my chance again there was a good opportunity to be close to this man and i lost it up again all right but even let's suppose you're saying that and i think you really are but you must be saying something else too because if you were just saying hell i missed my chance again you'd say all right next time i'll take advantage of what i learned this time and do it a little better now you still must be saying if you feel shame embarrassment shines there's something pretty bad about your error in missing your chance again i don't know if this follows in contact what you're saying but the thing i do feel is that i get suspicious then am i the type of woman that will only appeal to the ones that are to not my type of guy anyway is there something wrong with me am i never going to find the kind of man i enjoy i always seem to get the other one all right now you're getting closer to what i'm talking about because you're really saying if i am this type of woman that none of these good eligible males are going to appeal to then that would be awful i'd never get what i want and that would really be something right focus plus i don't like thinking of myself that way i want to put myself on a higher standard i don't like to think that i may be just an average jane doe well let's just suppose for the second argument at the moment that that were so all right that you were an average jane though now would that be so terrible would be inconvenient it would be unpleasant you wouldn't want it but would you get an emotion like shyness embarrassment shame out of just believing that maybe i'm going to end up like jane doe i don't know i don't think he could because he still would have to be saying on some level as i think you've just said and it would be very bad it would be terrible i would be a no good nick if i would just well i'd never get what i want if i were just a jane doe and if i'd have to accept that i'd never get what i want and i don't want to live the rest of my life with just icky men well necessarily so you'd never you really mean your chances would be reduced because we know some icky girls who get some splendid men though yeah you see so you're generalizing there you're saying it probably would be that i'd have a more difficult time but then you're jumping through therefore i'd never get it all you see the catastrophizing there that you jump to yes but it feels that way to me at the time it seems like forever that's right but isn't that a vote of non-confidence in you an essential vote of non-confidence yes and the non-confidence is because you're saying one i don't want to miss out on things i would like to get the kind of a man i want and be a in your word superior kind of girl who gets a superior kind of man yes but if i don't then i'm practically on the other side of the chain completely a no good nick somebody who'll never get anything that i want which is quite an extreme away isn't it yeah and that's what i call catastrophizing taking a true statement and there is a good deal of truth in what you're saying if you didn't get the kind of a man you wanted that it would be inconvenient annoying frustrating which it really would be and then saying i'd never possibly get what i want and even beyond that you're really saying and then i couldn't be a happy human being aren't you really saying that on some level but let's just look at that let's just assume the worst as virgin russell once said years ago assume the worst that you never got at all for whatever the reasons may be the kind of a man you want look at all the other things you can do in life to be happy well i don't like the whole process i don't even like as i'm going through it i don't all right even if it wasn't a catastrophe yeah even if i didn't look at it as a catastrophe i don't like the way i'm living right now for example when i meet somebody that i'm interested in that could have some potential right away i find i'm not near as relaxed with him i worry more should i be friendly should i kiss him good night should i do this if it's just a joe doe and i don't give a darn i can be anything i want to be i turn out to be more of a person when i'm not as concerned i don't like the way i'm uh well you're not you're not really concerned you're over concerned you're anxious because you were just concerned you'd do your best and you'd be saved yourself if i succeed great if i don't succeed talk right now i won't get what i want but you're over concerned or anxious you're really saying again that's what we said a moment ago if i don't get what i want right now i'll never get it and that would be so awful that i've got to get it right now that causes the anxiety doesn't it yes or else work toward it yes but if i don't get it right now that's all right but i want to feel like i'm working toward it yeah but you want to guarantee i hear my trained hearing is saying i would like a guarantee of working towards it and there are no certain well no doctor ellis i i don't know why i'm coming out that way what i really mean is i want a step toward working toward it i don't know i thought well what i was hoping is whatever this isn't me why i don't seem to be attracting these kind of men why i see more on the defense of why i seem more afraid you could help me what it is i'm afraid of so i won't do it so much well my hypothesis is so far that what you're afraid of is not just failing with this individual man which is really the only thing at issue when you go out with a new and we're talking about eligible males now we'll rule out the ineligible one you're not just afraid that you'll miss this one you're afraid that you'll miss this one and therefore you'll miss every other and therefore you prove that you are really not up to getting what you want and wouldn't that be awful you're bringing in these catastrophes well you sound more strong at it but that's similar i feel like this this is silly if i keep this up there's something i'm doing there's something i'm doing not to be as real a person with these men that i'm interested in that's right you're defeating your own ends by i've done it again if i weren't so doggone anxious about trying to hook this guy i could be more real he's going to enjoy me more if i'm real anyway so i'm only giving him the stinky part of me right how can anybody i respect respect a church and that's what i am when i don't really come through but look how you just devalued yourself let's just suppose the sake of argument you kept giving the stinky part of you a human being another person who's trying to get interested in you might not like these attributes these characteristics of you but i don't think he's going to despise you as a person what you are really doing i don't i i'm harder on myself than i think that's exactly the point like me there's not enough to me right and i say before if people just didn't like you and you went through enough of them and it would be hard to go for enough but it would be possible you'd eventually find one who did like you and whom you like but as long as you devalue yourself personally in your own eyes you complicate the problem enormously and you're not focusing on how can i be myself change the traits if you for example had a let us just say a mangled arm and you wouldn't accept your whole person your being because of this mangled arm then you would focus so much on that mangled arm that you wouldn't be able to do things that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do that's almost what i do yes yes you see that's exactly so you're taking a part of you an arm and focusing almost completely on that in just to bring it down to our own conversation taking a part of you your shyness your not being yourself with males and focusing so much on that part that you're almost making the whole of you and you get an awful picture of your total self because of this defective part and we're assuming you and i that it is effective we're not glossing over and say no you're doing all right you're not doing that well right now if you could accept yourself for the time being with this defective part with these attributes and not beat yourself over the head as i feel you definitely are doing then it becomes a relatively simple problem to work and practice to work and practice against this negative attribute in other words let's get back to that now how to be yourself let's just suppose for the moment that you really were fully accepting yourself with your failings right you know you're going to go out you know you're going to screw up with the next man the man after that and all probability but you're saying all right i have to go through a learning process that's too bad i won't be very good during this while but i'll do it just as i would at ice skating where i'd have to fall on my neck for a few times before i learned to ice skate okay now let's suppose that then if that was so you were really accepting you you go out take the risks of being you because after all if you do win one of these then you have to be yourself you're not winning them for a day you're not winning them for a fair i assume you want to marry one of these individuals eventually and be with them along with a long relationship i don't think so much marriage all right a long relationship in the course of which you couldn't act so we don't want to give you some acting well that he'll later find out was a role playing sort of thing so you have to eventually be yourself now if you really weren't so disturbed about these present current failings views you could go out and be this self of yours ask yourself what do i really want to do with this man to help enjoy him and have him help and join me because that's the basic function of life enjoyment which we tend to lose and you force yourself to take the risk of being that because if you succeeded great if you failed too bad either you are not for him or he may even not be for you because don't forget you said before when these men reject you you assume right away it must be my doing and my fault you know they may not be your cup of tea and you may not be their cup of tea and it's nobody's fault it's just true incompatibility yes you see yeah so if you would really accept yourself as you are and then force yourself and if you were one of my regular patients i would give you this homework assignment and then check up on you to see whether you could force yourself to open your big mouth and be you for a while even though it hurt with these males you would find that a you would start being yourself and gradually lopping off these inefficiencies which incidentally are the result of not being you but watching yourself from the outside while you're trying to be you which is almost impossible because you can't spy on yourself and still be yourself very well at the same time no but it will become like a habit after a while if you took the risks and forced yourself to as i said open your big mouth and even though you thought maybe it'll come out badly maybe he won't like me maybe i'll lose him completely and so on and so forth then you'd start swinging in the groove and being what you want to be and i would almost guarantee that you'd become more practiced and less inefficient especially in terms of the shyness because you wouldn't be focusing on oh my god isn't this awful how bad i am you would be focusing on what a nice individual this is and how can i enjoy him which is the oh the focus well you see my relationship the opposite way right how can i be more attractive to him and how can he be pleased by me because underneath if i am not then i cannot enjoy myself i refuse to accept myself unless i attract and win this good individual isn't that what you basically yeah then i even go further doctor i was when uh when there is one of these men i come in contact with and i find that i want to cultivate more of a relationship well if he accepts me and we're going along pretty great i find myself constantly on the defensive constantly watching the way i sit not drinking too much the whole time instead of just relaxing and saying he'll either like me or he doesn't emotional psychotherapy you're giving a very good illustration of why other directors did this other directiveness doesn't pay because if you really are defining yourself in terms of others estimation of you then even when you're ahead of the game and you're winning them you have to be saying to yourself will i win them today will i win them tomorrow will i keep winning them and you're always focused on am i doing the thing to please him and you never are yourself you never have a self well if you're saying what do i want to do in life there must be some human beings who would like me the way i am let's see if this is one of those human beings then that's the only way isn't it that you can be you see now we haven't got too much time now so let's try to get it off on a constructive note of more concretely what you can do you ask before where you can go how you can meet new people i'd say that i don't know this particular area but it's almost any place if you could do what we are talking about really take risks and focus on what you want out of life and on the fact that it's going to take time which unfortunately it does and it's not awful and you're not awful while it's taking that time then you can leave yourself open unshyly to all kinds of new encounters and these encounters can take place on buses while waiting for a streetcar if they have streetcars in this area at cocktail parties anyway you can talk to people who look eligible you can ask your friends to get your eligible mails and so on but the main thing is that you have to ag like yourself while you're not doing badly and b not be intolerant against conditions which are bad and i'm agreeing with you that they are now as i said i would give you if you were a patient of mine the homework assignment of deliberately very deliberately going out and getting yourself into trouble in other words taking the most eligible males you can find at the moment and forcing yourself risking yourself to be you are you saying even if it were like if i went into a doctor's office to start a conversation with him because he was attractive to me or he appealed to me right even go so far as to starting out a conversation with him a personal one why not if he's an eligible individual any kind of an eligible individual i know you accept that but that seems awfully brazen well let's suppose it is brazen what have you got to lose the worst he can do is reject you and you don't have to reject you if you were thinking along the lines that we've been 25 minutes or so oh yeah now can you try to do that i think i think so in order to give me a spirit to uh go out and see you're right that's all i can do is be rejected right and that needs you intact it just leaves you unfortunately not for the moment getting what you want so you try the one you've already read and i'll be very interested in finding out what happens oh i'm excited about it well it was certainly very nice meeting you clara thank you doctor i enjoyed talking with this interesting and i think highly courageous patient and thought that it gave a the session gave a pretty good illustration of a fairly typical session of rational emotive psychotherapy how was it typical in several ways in the first place i was able rather rapidly and quickly to get to some of what i think of the philosophic cores of the patient's disturbances to show her that the reason she is feeling shy and ashamed and afraid in this instance is because even though partially unwittingly she is defining herself in a very negative way or devaluing herself by blaming herself too much for imperfect behavior because perfectionism is the root of most human evils and she was showing some fairly typical perfectionistic notions so very quickly as is usually done in rational emotive psychotherapy we skip some of the asides we skip going back into the history as some of the psychoanalysts do and we skip some of the transference relations between us and the patient and we skip some of the non-verbal expression not that we think these things are quite unimportant but we think they're a relatively little relevance to the basic core of the patient's disturbance which is her philosophy of life and typically again this patient showed both anxiety and low frustration tolerance which most patients showed and these were intertwined and again very usually she was then beating herself over the head blaming herself condemning herself for feeling these kinds of feelings now she did not see very clearly at least i thought so at the beginning of the session exactly what declarative sentences and exclamatory sentences she was telling herself to create these feelings and i endeavored to show her some of these sentences and what could be done about it and among other things i also though briefly because this is just one brief session tried to give her a homework assignment that she could go and get her teeth into and actively try to do to de-propagandize herself by going out and taking risks which normally up to now she hasn't been taking that much of it's interesting to note that again quite typically in this session although i was attacking fairly vigorously the patient's attitudes or philosophies she did not feel an attack on her she felt that i was supporting her if anything and she ended up i thought rather optimistically feeling that i had given her several ideas of what she could do in the future again rather typically in this session i kept persuading the patient and attacking her ideas and showing her that her philosophy of life not only was such and such but that if she stuck to this kind of philosophy she had to get negative and self-defeating results from it and then i kept persistently going on even though a time she became defensive and wasn't quite accepting by any means what i was saying i didn't let this bother me but kept going on against her basic core system her value system because this is again what bothers patients that they give up very easily on attacking their own negative evaluations of themselves and therefore they persist forever now there were limitations of course especially in terms of time to the session and these limitations did have some effect for example there wasn't a not enough time for repetition in several sessions i would have gone over much of the same material until i was sure that it would sunk in then i would have had time to get feedback from the patient to see whether she really understood in action in particular what i was talking about and whether she was following it up or leading herself up some other diverting pathway which people can do there was no time to emphasize that she would have to continually re-assess her evaluations of herself and her general philosophies and do rethinking for the rest of her life there was no time to show the patient very much that even during this session in relation to me and what she was saying about herself that she was displaying her bad attitudes toward herself and finally there was no occasion of course since this was an individual session to see how she related specifically to other non-therapists as she would in group therapy and in the midst of this group situation to show her exactly what was going on and what she could do about it but i do feel help hopeful about the session and think that perhaps i was able at least to give the patient a few ideas which he could then go out and work on on her own because unless patients do work themselves with the material that we therapists give them in psychotherapy nothing eventually happens it isn't any magic that we have for them but we can give them certain catalytic ideas and influences which then if they work and practice at work and practice that will do them good for the rest of their lives