Transcript for:
Karim Busta's Tech Leadership Journey

In the Silicone Valley, there are those who watch the trains go by and those who lead them. Karim Busta, himself, has always had his hands on the wheel. He left France with a CV of engineer, a well-made head and this taste for impossible challenges. He has crossed the Atlantic, landed in the Silicon Valley and very quickly, it became found in the heart of the cyclone. Tesla first alongside Elon Musk and then Lift where he was in charge of operations. Then it is Masayoshison himself, the boss of Softbang who called him so that he can come and shake up the start-ups of the Vision Fund. So, he will find himself at the head of Get Around. SO inevitably when you work with Musk or Masson, you learn to no longer be afraid you're welcome and he's going to tell us everything that he lived. He has lots of anecdotes to tell share, truths that we hear never in France. So without further ado wait, place to Karim Bosta in Of the Record. I realize that it was going to be a car that would change the automobile. [Music] Before starting this episode, I wanted to take a little moment for you talk about our partner contau. We love them at Silicone Carnet. It is It's true that when you start your business, you don't want to worry with the French administration. I am been there and conto takes care of everything for you. Whether it is the accompaniment legal, the capital deposit, your pro account, you even have a tool integrated billing and that makes your pre-accounting. All of this is 100% managed online. At this moment, creation business is offered. You just pay the mandatory Lego fees. It's great simple, it's fast, it's effective. I really invite you to go through them if you you are about to create a micro-business, an SAS or an SRL. Besides, a 1 in 5 companies choose Conto. That is called conto.com and it is written q O t.com. Hello Karim, hello Carlos. Thanks for come and say hello to us here in the SCON valley where you no longer live Besides. Uh well thank you for the invitation. Glad to be back here again. Indeed, I moved 2 years ago. years. I am now in Miami. Miami after spending 15 years, almost 16 in the valley. Let's go back a little bit on your journey uh before dive into tech and this madness from Silicon Valley. Well, you are a inget square what. You're coming out of telecom Paris. Where is Karim Bouard from? He comes from where? Uh, what's his background? As a kid you were a good student. Yeah. So me yeah, I've always been pretty good student. Uh, I didn't really know. what I wanted to do. So I asked myself let yourself be guided by the classic route French uh scientific terminal, prep scientist, engineering school. So to At that moment, I realized that I also wanted to do others things. So I did an MBA and then I started for by I started to work for big companies Proctoring Gumble, General Electric. In the end, I have always worked only for French boxes uh American, never for boxes French, except for a small interim at a moment. Since the beginning, in fact, I liked the culture, the way of working Americans. I liked it J because well, it was a group enough until 2010, it was one of the most respected boxes, admired by the world. It's a bit super innovative. Yeah. Uh so there was lots of things to do, lots of trades to learn. So for me, It was perfect. Not knowing exactly what I wanted to do. Uh In fact, it was them who led me on on tracks of So I touched a bit of everything in many industries different. I did medical, security, industrial, uh all the types of possible positions. And it is embossing for American boxes that you wanted to come here in the silicone valley. How did it go? ? In fact, uh, in fact, at the beginning I had don't want to come to Silicon Valley but being at home it was that was 6 I was 7 years old and I was there in Europe so I was turning a little on different boxes on different positions he regularly told me, well if you want to continue you will have to come to the US and J it's a group industrial with large centers almost everywhere in the US most of the time in places that aren't super sexy or uh Tennessee the center Milwaukee things like that. So to every time he came and I said "No, Well, it's not going well there, I don't feel it." And then one day they came with a proposal for they had bought a small start-up based here and they told me "There we have need help because in fact this this doesn't work great." And since I had the habit of declining, I say "Yeah, I don't think so, I'll look but I don't think. And in fact, it turns out that at this At that time, my wife was also working for an American company based in Saint- Rossé, so in the south of the valley in tech too. Yeah. Yeah. And So there, we said to ourselves "Ah, maybe that there it might be interesting to look How old are you at that time? At that time I was 35 36. So you have children already? No, no children. No. OK. No. So the The move was pretty easy, though. The move was quite easy. It was just is it that we want to do this passage ? And so we said, "OK, we can, we can." try". But we are leaving, we was uh so we weren't sure and so we left with a belt, suspenders, uh life jacket and everything in terms of expat contract, return clause, if we wanted to go home, if that meant didn't like it, in fact What. That is to say in the conditions perfect by being Yeah. times, if We don't like it, we go home and we don't insist. H And in fact, at the end of 3 months ago, I had the clause removed that I had added uh on You are said "I'm going to stay." Yeah, because we saw it right away in fact, we liked it, that was it, it ticked the box all cases. What did you like about it? here when you arrived? This is this is the personal part or is it the professional part? It's both. This is both the point From a professional point of view, it's moving, that's it go fast, finally it's it's fluid, it's there is innovation, you feel it especially at the time It's pulsing, you feel that something is happening things what. This is where you need to be. Yeah, as they say. And from a point of view Personally, life is great. pleasant. You meet people, the conditions, the material, The weather is nice, not too hot. Uh finally It's yeah. clings to all boxes and you arrived at because the gap culturally, it is absolutely colossal between France and in particular Silicon Valleyley. I'm not even talking about the UNITED STATES. Uh, me 15 years later, I still continues to Yeah. Yeah. soul surprise. Uh what was for you the most difficult when settling in here in the S convallé? Ah there is there is has several things. So I'll tell you a story which I tell next. Something that shocked me when I arrived, first day, my new job in the box over there uh that I am shown around, to meet the people and so on. I do two or three things and around 12:30, I see the girl who had guided me into the offices and I tell him "How is it going for lunch?" And she said to me, "What is What do you mean?" I say, "Well, I know No, what are you doing for lunch?" She says, "Well, if you brought your lunchbox, you can there is a cafeteria downstairs you can go eat there. Otherwise, there may be restaurants but 2 3 km but I don't know what. But I don't know. And so there, I I realize that there is no shared lunch break as a team as we're used to it in France. So this it was something uh that I I still can't get used to it. That annoys me. maybe still need to take a break to take a break and This is an opportunity to discuss. Finally one something else. So that I am I am not sure I don't know if it is American American or if it's silicone valley. I find that when people here have a little difficult to disconnect. It is that they are still 24 all the time 7 days a week business. So. Uh so you always have this thing when you meeting people. The notion of friendship in fact, it is still linked to your your job and what interest they can to have to know you and to know you frequent in relation. There you go, that's it. Tru uh so that, I never used to it. Even in Miami, it's where is it different? Miami? No, Miami, it's it's different. So, it is relational, it's not directly transactional. Hm hm. But finally, it is something else. It's another one different mentality. But I find more relaxed and the people more Yeah. more relaxed, more in the good mode if It's the weekend or the evening, we do the party and we don't talk about work. So one day you have the opportunity to join Tesla. Yeah. H well the dream No ? Uh so for me uh yes, in It's been several years since I was thinking about it and it's both uh the heaven and hell after. But uh actually when you got there, you still said it was a job dream. Yes, it was it was really the thing I wanted to do. In fact, this what had happened, I have When leaving there, you you said "I just got out of one "A real pain." No, no, I never have regretted for a second what I had what I had done with the time that I had spent there. But no, it was really what i want what i wanted to do. I had uh from 2012 when Tesla started to market the ModS, it was the it had become quite the fashionable thing quickly. I was in Palo Alto. You arrived at Tesla, we are in what year ? 2000. End of 2015. End of 2015. It is not the Tesla we know today eh. It's a Tesla that completely There are many questions about the Tesla's industrial capacity. Uh the promises as usual, they are extraordinary. We have an entrepreneur which at this time is still in smell of holiness in relation to power democrat and uh and who a kind of promise like that from an entrepreneur new generation uh liberal but progressive. But many doubts from the market when you have the capacity to Tesla of of of full thread of responding to the promises that Elon Musk did. Then we have the image, we to this guy who is a genius who tweets, who uh who throws cars in space. So you lived behind the scenes Uh, you came home with glitter in the eyes and then very quickly you I said I understood that it was going to be different from what I imagined. Yeah. So, I had a little preview before the interviews while meeting Ilon and all this, especially the first time that I met him where there was this finally you felt the determination at the same time kind of we're going to walk on the moon. It is it is the kind of So he told me the first The time I saw him, he said to me, let's go Let's build the biggest one biggest box in the world. The way which he says, is that we are going to build uh actually, we're going to revolutionize the automobile, we will impose the electric. As we will be early, we will be the biggest box of automobile and if we are the biggest car box, chances are that we are the biggest box in the world. So he says it quite quite simple. Uh and then he starts listing the things that need to be done and each one is something that seems impossible. So you know before you arrive that it's there, you You're not recruited yet, eh. No, it is it's you know it's going to be something It's a really hard thing, but it's impossible to imagine uh the rhythm, the intensity the intensity uh that there is in this in that box at that time. It is absolutely amazing. How much do you make? interviews at Tesla before returning ? How does it work? So, it was not uh because it's a box in hypergrowth uh enough not very well organized. Uh so before meeting uh Ilon, I think I meet 15 people different different who all tell me "Yeah, we want to recruit you thing but every time he you had to see Bilul there and then we discuss and then and each time that was even more because everything the world is hyper passionate. you meeting people who are uh in whom describe to you what they do. You say "But yeah, actually that's what I want to do." And 15 people in a time lapse of what? Over a month, something like that. So basically you pass already your life at Tesla there. There you go, that's it That. Especially since at the time, I had I had broken my ankle. Uh so I was uh finally in in a wheelchair on crutches. On crutch. And uh the Freemand factory site is one thing is kilometers and kilometers. So I made some kilometers in this with your crutches and Tesla to try to get back on crutch at Tesla. Yeah in I did have a you know what we call the scooters n scooter there you put your knee on a little troller. So, I met Ilon the first time with my little scooter there. So by wandering like that in the in the premises. First impression of meeting with Ilon. So before you meet, in fact there is a preparation, I spent 2 hours with his chief of staff and the person in charge HR to prepare to prepare me for what I was going to to suffer through what was going to happen. Ah yeah but that's that's that's that's usual, that is to say it is organized. So that depends on Elon's step. Musk like that. It depends on the type. maintenance that it is just for to validate. Apparently, there is a little of that but there it is because well that way of behaving in the finally in an interview and uh confusing, disconcerting. So yes, me after the people I was passing through interview with him, I have the same feeling, I I prepared it, it was necessary Then, What exactly did they tell you before? of of So, so it is necessary to arrive so there is no schedule. So, there is no schedule, it can be that It can be shifted by 5, 6, or 7 hours. So, you have to, uh, there is no preamble, there is no hello, How are you ? Things we do normally it starts directly. And so, there are several phases. First first 4 minutes, he tries to assess whether it will stick. SO there, it only plays on the impression. It's animal. Is this the no one has the intensity, the strength of conviction? Do I feel it? What ? It's it's Yeah, it's purely intuitive, instinctive. And so if you don't pass these four first minutes, in fact, he has a little thing where he makes a sign, someone comes, finally the secretary comes in and says there is an emergency and we stops there. That's how it is pass. And so he prepares for that. They you They say, here you go, you have to know. So the first four minutes are very important. Otherwise if you Don't pass, it's over. Afterwards, there is a something else 10 minutes away. There, it is he has had a little more content and so in this phase, in fact, it don't ask a lot of questions. In general, he asks one or two questions, but it goes super deep. Uh and besides, it's something that I I have I used, that we used after because I realized that indeed the best way to know someone, it wasn't to do it uh the story of his entire journey, of everything what he did. it's actually take an example of something that he did but to go super far and so basically you spend all the the interview to talk about this thing on which he finally tells you and he is curious, he asks questions, he he asks a lot of questions. But so on the second part of if 6 7 minutes to arrive at 10 minutes there he estimates. Is there really the subject that I want to explore? Yes. No. If it is, if it is, well that's it stops there. If yes, then he has It has emergency exits. So, 4 minutes, that's it. 10 minutes away. And after 10 minutes, it can last 2 hours, it can last it can last so generally half an hour and 3/4 of hour or more depending on the affinities and the thing. So we prepare you for that because that it is then the other thing is when when which one are you being prepared for so it is necessary to arrive it is very impatient, he has he has a duration of attention span which is very very reduced because he thinks about worthless things. So if you start talking and you takes 10 minutes to explain something, you lost it. So we have to get to speak to capture his attention to capture his attention with enough content to keep him focused. Uh and that's when you explain that, you say "OK but how do I do it?" So there you go, you were freaked out it was that suddenly you were No because that I said to myself no, I said to myself if it works great, if it doesn't too bad. I would have just met this guys and then there you go. No, none no stress. So tell us about it first four minutes. Elen comes home in the room. Does he serve you? hand ? No. No physical contact? No. No. Visually, he looks at you in the eyes. Uh, he looks at you with a look piercing which finally you feel this this intensity there. No smile. No, he don't smile. No, that's not cool. No, there is no there is no kindness what. There is nothing there is nothing of that. What does he say then? So he starts by explaining his vision. So we're going to build the biggest box revolutionary, the biggest box of the world. Uh, and there he says to me, here it is he was recruiting me for the position of responsible uh after-sales service customer service. Yeah you're going to be in charge of something which is very complicated. A little sharp. Yeah. a little sharp. Yeah. And so he tell me we're going to uh global customer service eh. You enter recruiting for take care of all customer service global. Yeah. So he tells me we're going so to do that to get to that my ambition: better customer service the history of the automobile and the industry and to do that uh so we built all from scratch. I need to find the best in the world to do That. And while he's talking, I have this kind of my education, my training a little bit like French. You know, we always have tendency to compared to Americans, we don't have naturally trust us. We does not naturally put forward by report a little imposter syndrome little. So. Yeah, totally. SO while he says that, I say to myself but in so here is a guy who wants to do the biggest box in the world, it looking for the best in the world and me if I think I'm in regional D4. Yeah. So what the hell am I doing here? Yeah. Do you doubt yourself? Yeah. And so I actually say to myself, well, it's nice to be got there but finally people like that finally he surely has hundreds and so I'm preparing to tell him that or to tell him and so he stops there and I tell him but actually well I I'm passionate about Tesla and all that but In fact, I don't know anything about cars. by telling myself perhaps that like that It gives me an escape because that I am so in fact you were looking for also perhaps a way out yourself what. Yes, because I was arriving not to tell me I'm going to sell myself wanted you're there and he actually says to me well that It's great because I don't want [ __ ] because if I take someone who who has already driven a car he will reproduce industry recipes and I want to break everything. So I want someone who knows nothing. That's it. This is the moment where you think you spent the 4 minutes. It is at this moment that it is with this answer there. I think for him, but I wasn't yet, uh, me I still felt like I was in my shift uh and then something happens so he tells me says his thing again, I'm looking for the best of the world, all the people I recruit, the best, the best of the best. And there, I say to myself in fact what is it that look for ? And I see the profile that we all have a little if we have worked in the United States with Americans, the self-confident American who has always Since he was 5 years old, he has been told that he was the best. At 7 years old, he started to do PowerPoints and stuff in class and so he has this assurance natural. And there, it annoys me to think that it is a guy like that or a girl like that who will take this position. And so, I rebel against this, against this this thing where I want but no, I refuse. It's not And so that's where I I I say to myself no but then we will go so long worse, it doesn't work but in any case I I'm not going to leave it, uh I'm not going to leave this position to someone other and especially not to one of his Americans. So that's pride also French, the and then a form of panache too. not to let yourself go not to let yourself get down and and to even if the battle is lost uh I I will fight with honor here without giving up. Without lay down their arms because some seconds after before I was about to do and then no it's not possible. Yeah I refuse. In these four first minutes, do you think that it's him who talks a lot? Yeah he's talking about 3 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. So he looks at you and what does he look for ? look for your expression bodily, I think. Yeah. He he try to see at once if he will have control over you. No, or is it that Are you scared? No. Uh, maybe. In actually, I think he wants to see uh of the task, hey I'm talking about, huh. Yeah. Yeah. There is an expression that he use it, it's hardcore. He wants some hardcore people, that is to say they are at bottom to bottom who who don't give up, who who are fully committed. a bulldog. Yeah. And so he's looking to see that. Is he feel it? Hm hm. And then it is is it that he manages to see the proof that Are you someone like that? The fact that you are French, it matters or it doesn't matter completely [ __ ] up? He doesn't care completely. What image does he have? French people, by the way? Takes for accounts? I think he's okay [ __ ]. There are quite a few very good ones engineers at Tesla. So I think that he knows that he has a lot but he don't look so much at the pedigree. Uh They don't care about diplomas. Uh hm h so uh there are quite a few French people who have been successful, which have worked well. So I think he has an OK image, but it's not an important criterion. for him. Second part of the interview, we are in 10 minutes. Yeah. So, what is the subject? He asks me to talk about something very difficult, a very problem difficult that I solved. So I He the don't know huh. He knows you, he has not your resume. there is there is there is a brief in fact which is given to him before hm h uh quite detailed on the 15 interviews previous. So we had prepared that. He had me Guys, you told me about this, I think. That's what he needs, he who goes interest him. And it didn't fail. It was this topic. So that was it. What was it? subject ? It was on what I had actually done in the in the start-up of I had helped to get back up. It is a box that made the systems explosive detection security for luggage at airports. So quite specific, quite technical. They had huge problems. So their customer, it is the TSA of the agency of airport security. So there was huge quality problems. THE product didn't work, they were threatened with exclusion from all calls for tenders from all airports in the world. So you have a little pressure What. And so there was a lot of stuff to do to solve this from a point of view product view, customer relationship quality and I did that in 2-3 months. Uh so I told everything and there we spent is that there is a first step where it said "OK, I'm interested in coming back in the in the in the subject and after We talked for 45 minutes. Didn't he know anything about this thing?" No, he he knew nothing but he poses asked the right questions. Yeah. 50 questions what. Yeah. And in fact its technique which is really something thing, I was saying it's something that I have retained and I use since uh it's that it really allows to see the usurpers because It's very hard to hold on because he's going very very far into the subject. SO he will tell me if I say I have a problem of quality, he will tell me it was What is the quality problem? I say well that makes the system it's a it's a tomograph with a rotating table where it there is an X-ray that rotates, it must rotates at a certain frequency with a maximum deviation of 6 microns and you look why 6 microns? I I don't understand. Finally you see, he goes the engineer who will challenge you to really check if you master if you have really done what you said that what you say you had do. No, but it's super interesting. because maybe people who go live this experience and there you are in giving us a masterclass. How to pass an interview recruitment ? How to get through with Elon Musk? Yeah. So in the story in made me it's even more special what happened is that there was a moment after 30 40 minutes its sa secretary just gave him a message and he says to me "Wait I have to that I'm looking at something. There is a message that comes to him and I learned after it was a message from SpaceX. There was a problem with a launch which was planned uh the following night or something like that. So he multitasks, he changes context. But what makes that the continuation of the discussion in made it was more completely concentrate. So we stayed for another 1 in total hour 1 hour and they called me back after a few days later telling me in there was a problem It's just that he doesn't remember. Yeah. he does not remember the rest of your crazy discussion because he was in his SpaceX thing so you have to come back. So I'm entitled to a second one session. So actually he's not that smart. What. Well, I think there are cases where, uh and then there he really wanted to be sure and then he says "I can't get over it memory I'm not sure it's necessary it's necessary it's necessary that he comes back that we continue the discussion. So you come back So I come back and I'll do it for 1 hour and a few. And this time, the second time, you go in you uh with more apprehension that the first or on the contrary not, you said "This interview with you is not bad Elon. Uh uh no, because you are you are not at all, not at ease. You are You are still very disconcerting. SO Yeah. So it's not a part of pleasure. No, I knew what wait for me in relation to the first times but it's still it's when same Yeah. Yeah. So second interview uh more than 4 minutes there it is finished. Yeah. No, it's for continue. And there, on the other hand, we have started to he started to tell me about this who of what he wanted to do and how I saw things. And one of the things who was important to him because so Tesla was built on the customer relations, uh making a product uh beautiful and then an experience customer uh who makes people adhere to the thing. And after a picture around that which was done at the time we had uh so me when I am when I arrived the box had sold 60,000 cars, but we had millions of supporters worldwide entire. These are people who said he This box must succeed was waiting for who had passed pre-orders. There you go it was just about the picture and the image she was sent back by well what we this which we were talking about and so on but we did zero marketing. There was no advertising. If it was muque the marketing. Yes, but we didn't spend any money. zero dollars in marketing. There was a marketing department elsewhere. No No, the only thing, there was a little two people uh who were doing the events when we were doing presentations of new newcomers vehicles or things like that. But No, no marketing. One day he had a fit because that we had we did the analysis of marketing and automotive costs it is generally one of the brands classics spend between 1500 and 2000 dollars per sold in marketing and we we had 6 dollars and he said we thought he was going to would scream with joy saying it's it's incredible one one finally six compared to 2000 is incredible per car and it said uh where did you find it spend 6 dollars? This is unacceptable. It didn't suit him either. 6 dollars It was already $6. He had said zero so Ah yeah. Oh yeah. The guy is extreme anyway. Yeah. So you know you're hired right away after the second interview. It's him Who tells you or not? It's a little After. It reminds me it ends one little bit of this stuff is pudding second interview. You don't really know. No. So there is more next step. There is no no the second second ends very very well in the sense that he gets up, he thanks me so he does from time to time there were gestures finally things like that which made which even disconcerted the people around because you have to know that the interviews, there is no office closed, it's an open space, it's the coffee machine practically anything. So there are almost people around What. So he leaves him one little bit of space. So he doesn't have someone next to him but two offices further away, there is someone. It's a huge open space. Etth and so he sees him get up and shake my hand saying goodbye. First physical contact. Yeah. And so there they told me well in fact so it is good it's good. He never did that or It's super rare for him to do that. So you know it's good. So after we have they confirmed a few days later. In Silicon Valley, we are used to it to say that time is money. 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Good, you discover your workplace, your colleagues and so on and so forth. Then you cross paths with Elon Muskel days later. H And then there, you understand that in fact you you're not recruited, what. You are not yet recruit actually testing. You are recruited but you is being tested. Yeah, that's it. How so happened? explain this to us. Uh so there is a meeting of a meeting of crisis because there was a problem of quality on the fashion at the time and so I'm invited, I came to arrive, it had been 3 days since I was there so I'm invited in this meeting, there was Ilon uh and so there he says it's the Qata, if we don't solve this problem, we're dead uh in 3 weeks. Because basically, if we solved not the problem, the car was selling more. if the car sold more, uh it was the end of So good uh total crisis meeting of finally, all hands on deck, we must absolutely that we solve this thing and no one, finally it was a bit of chaos no one really knew what to do. SO I was there, I listen, I try to understand who is who does what, what what is happening, what is the problem and etc. And after that, I have his chief of staff who me who calls me or sends me an email in saying wants to see you. And as I had it not seen since the interviews we had not spoken in this meeting, I say to myself "Ah well actually, he wants he wants me welcome." And so I arrive and he says nothing. He doesn't say Hello, nothing. He told me in English but so he says I am super super worried there. Uh since you arrived, I haven't seen any difference. Uh, you didn't do anything. Uh You have to understand, it's not like that's what's happening here. Uh and there he looks at me and I But so I he told me he must have confused me with someone because it was literally on Thursday I had arrived Monday or Wednesday for Monday, something like that. What does it mean? say ? I didn't see any difference. It is and you tell him you tell him no but you know that I finally it's it's my 3rd day. And he said to me there while switching to mode rude what finally but F F word F word Uh, I don't give a [ __ ]. You are here you have to shake everything the thing. Yeah you gotta shake it up the whole thing. There, I don't see that it's happening pass. And so there I started to say to myself "Well, okay, uh, what do I do?" And actually, I understood afterward, it's a thing that regularly did, a kind of test crash test in fact. And so, I decide to tell him "Well listen, OK, well maybe, but let me explain what I have in my 3 days there." There you go, thing, that's the plan. This is what that I will do. And uh actually, I'm not going to show you results in 3 days, but in 3 weeks, that's it the three things I would have done. And so there he calms down completely and there we discuss the future, strategy and all that. You're actually an [ __ ]. SO Uh, I don't know why. Uh it's a [ __ ] behavior anyway like That. It's a behavior. So, there is always the justification that does that because he can't afford it to have weak links because if there are weak links, the box It's so difficult what there is to TO DO. So there is always a justification. And you, do you take that? Yes, because all the people who are there in fact, we admit that and we adhere to it made to the objective uh the objective of the box, to the objective so uh so we accept these these things like that by saying "Yes, well actually that it seems it seems it's hard but it is normal, right." There you go. Yeah. Somewhere And then you accept it until moment when you no longer accept it and when you accept it anymore, that's when you decide to leave. Actually, that's it, that's it relationship with Elon. We'll come back to that. You will give us some other examples and some other anecdotes, but he's not always there. So he makes slightly flashy passages, dazzling like that. Yeah. Yeah. What's the atmosphere like with the other colleagues? It's hyper focused, hyper intense, hyper in fact it is stimulating but there are mutual aid, there is there is there is of empathy because there we see that there is doesn't have any at all with So just Yeah. So, uh, actually, that's the miracle of as he is so without empathy, we are forced to overcompensate by saying we are we are together in fact. And so in the end, it's the box less political than what I saw because that you can't afford the little ones stuff to try to push your tone personal case in the hope of That is impossible. It doesn't work. It is impossible. There is no barony. No, It's impossible. In fact, it is a autocracy what. Uh well actually it is there is a leader and everyone then we have responsibilities for things, but there is no time you are there to tell yourself "Ah, I would like to get such a organization." Finally all the stuff that there are in many boxes. Uh because in fact everyone says "My success, if the company succeeds, in done, I succeed too." And if I put my interests staff in advance, it's bound to go so in fact it is paradoxically it is the most pleasant thing is the best the best the best work environment because there is never a low blow, there is never because we don't have the time and in fact you are in a constant state solve problems. There is a real trust finally between people and you have to trust everything the world. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a little things you find in the in emergency situations where there must be mutual aid and all that, but it is linked to the fact that we have this mission to accomplish, these problems to solve uh which are but It's unimaginable the number of things every day that you have that falls above, you have to find how get out of it. So precisely, uh, we have talked about the energy level that this guy prints. Hm hm. Uh and of the pressure he puts, but also the ambition he has. Hm hm. But we don't have talked about genius because often when Elon is described as a genius. Uh uh was there a time when you really stuck where you said to yourself wow, the guy is actually uh super smart ? Yeah. Yes, there were. There were some. The one that sums up well for me the thing, that's when I first time that I got into a Model 3. Yeah. because we were working on it, we saw her but but first time that we have a pre-production model that is running and the boss of engineering offers me to go up with him to try it and there I go up in the car and I realize that it is This was going to be a car that was going to change the automobile. And so there is Yon's mark everywhere in this thing. The design, the hyper-aggressive choices of simplification of the dashboard machine of technological choices of simplification of architecture, software integration everywhere, uh the choices, uh, physical, so there handling, acceleration, so there is his mark everywhere everywhere. And there I say to myself "Ah yeah, It's still, uh, it's incredible." To say that it is not simply a visionary, it translates into the execution. So. Yeah. And there you are inside with choices that he pushed against all odds because we say so example something that we find in all Tesla which is a choice of Elon Musk who is uh a little remembered uh so there are two things. There is the hypersimplification of the architecture of the car. That is to say that most cars are made with subsystems and each subsystem is managed by a team, an organization. often it is outsourced with suppliers, Valeo, Bosches and so on. The manufacturer, the builder automobile, it is an assembler of subsystem and he from the beginning said "No, no, it's a platform that we master completely Apple in design." There you go, Exactly. Uh and in doing so, we can simplify things in an extraordinary way. So we create this kind of vehicle platform where all subsets, to give you an idea, it's the same the same electrical architecture and transmission of information which manages the engine, the system that we calls infotainment from the radio, the screen and so on, the button for roll down the windows. And so with in fact the same software, the same tu can decide to change what pressure should be applied to lower your window or configurable change the car's acceleration by software over the air. And so this kind of thing where people told him "But no, It's impossible to do that." And he insists, he insists, he insists, he manages to do it. And there you realize that it is revolutionary. Karim, maybe you will finally be able to explain to us why in the Tesla To open the glove box, you must go through the control screen in the Model 3. Yeah. And the Model Y because he had decided that it was necessary no button anywhere. mechanical? How is nothing mechanical? Yeah, no Bah, actually it broke the mechanical but that's especially it broke the spell of the design that it wanted to have completely completely smooth. Yeah. Uh there is no handle either. Yes, That's annoying. Yeah. And and that is it things we fought over, finally all the time world why it's not much, we can put that. No. And you can do nothing TO DO. It's impossible to change. When he decided something, he rarely changes his mind. No, he can change your mind. Yeah. As long as it is not him who changed his mind, it's very very hard to change his mind because there is often a mixture irrational instinctive that you can't explain. So this button story for open the glove box. You, you go use a rational trick by saying well It's still more practical to have the button to go to the menu. And he will say "Yes, but it's not handsome." And you can't, what are you can do? You can't do anything. OK. There is no more arguments. So. OK. You me I said while preparing this show that this genius that we see, we have the impression to see genius. Actually, he's a guy who just has convictions uh and then they are interpreted as genius, but He's above all a guy who doesn't give up of his idea. Yeah. And then it's also a rocket launcher, that is to say that we retains rockets that worked. Hm. But uh everything he does, he accepts that it spits, what. That is to say that for a thing that works, there are nine things that are going to mess up what. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not surprising. So and he manages in fact all these boxes as he manages SpaceX. Yeah, there are launches, that. works, it doesn't work. We learn and then we rectify it the next time. That means he doesn't expect 100% of success despite everything. Yeah. So he is very far from the French mentality which wants everything to be planned. That failure is not and does not make part of the equation. There, failure is Completely yeah. Uh actually, we often said, he said "We want to be we have to be so fast that we have time to try 10 things which do not work, fall on the 11th who walks and during this time our competitors, they will be still wondering how we do." It's that they have they even have didn't start first. They will be just wondering how we do. So in his head, that means be here hyper of a speed. Yeah. extraordinary and sometimes so it put that it was we were doing things that were beyond the logic finally where you say but it is It's just not possible so we did changes to the cars. SO in the automobile generally works by model year, that is to say that you all the years you make changes on a on a model you are the 2023 model 2024 with some modifications. you put all your changes in this in this release in fact, in this new version. And we made changes several times a day, software, hardware on the car. So that means there was none there were very few cars that were exactly the same in fact. We introduced components thing uh we made changes which which were not fully tested because that we didn't have time and we said well anyway if it doesn't work It doesn't matter, we'll change it later. So. So depending on when you bought your car, maybe you didn't have one necessarily the same you had the same model but maybe not the same components inside. So. Actually no, you obviously didn't have it because changed so often. Uh to a moment, I had we had tried to count because afterwards it was necessary you have to be able to manage the parts of spare parts and all that and we had counted I think it was 16,000 different configurations that were uh in circulation in circulation then that there was uh at the time there was that three Model S and 3 models uh but there had 16,000 different configurations with changes of uh component So these are things like that. Why he said this question of speed of being able to be on cycles faster development, decrease the costs, finally lots of lots of reasons. Uh but including doing things completely out of the ordinary nobody does uh doesn't do things like that in the industry. Who is wearing the We feel that he carries the vision, but then uh it happens How does it go from there? It is there is the product team, uh, it has numbers of uh No, there aren't any product team. Uh, that's another one. particularity. There are project teams but no product team. Another one peculiarity is that it has a quality, there is the vision which is ambitious and so on and then he has an ability to translate vision into a strategy and the strategy to make it super simple. hypersam strategy, that means priority for everyone world. So if we are 30,000 employees at the time, the 300 people, is to take out the Model 3 and bring it to machine production volume. That's all. Whatever you do, every every time you spend working for Tesla, it must be supported this strategy there. Yeah. So that's it makes things super simple because you don't need to make committees planning thingamajig. Uh what do you need to do to launch the Model 3 and reach one million vehicles of vehicles sold? all the world. Well, that's the plan. action, what needs to be done is hyper uh so after that, there are thousands of projects and so on, but it's super easy to design and have everything the world in the same uh on the same objective. But there, I have I want to ask you a question, it's that this objective is very clear. H but for example, leave security. Yeah. That's a problem there. So, if we begin to ask ourselves questions about security, yeah. He had to ask himself these questions security issues. Yeah. So, we how he understood if someone would come and say to him, "Yeah, we will actually launch but there we have still a big security concern." Well, we were establishing principles and once again great ability to simplify the taking of decision for everyone. On a subject like that, we said if someone said "But what is it what we do about this problem of security?" Very simple reasoning. What do you think will happen? pass if ever there is a problem safety that makes cars unreliable, there are people dying ? What do you think will happen? pass ? Well, we're dead. The box has no future, it's over. SO What are we going to do? We are going make sure there is no problem security. So immediately, this thing goes back up. Uh at the time, there was the Takata airbag problem and I have managed this thing from the very beginning when I was arrived. I didn't even know what it was a collection but someone explain to me, I'm told, there's a reminder manufacturer, manufacturer recall and we me and so I am told here, there is this problem, we put airbags of this Japanese brand Takata. there are problems after a few years with humidity, it risks exploding. And so with this principle, we could not take any risk that could be fatal for us, uh, if there was had an accident, I decided to execute the recall immediately then that we didn't have money for it TO DO. We were terrible for the box at that time. But we did it, we were the Tesla was the first and only one in fact to having executed it 100%, we do it in 4 months or something like that. And when you look in France, right now, it's finally exploding. Not bad pun Yeah. Uh because we tried so there was uh But when you make this decision, you kill it take it with him or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. precisely with this this uh all of a sudden there is there is a criterion, a risk that passes above of the primary objective. Yeah. And he understands it. And he understands it. And no only he understands it, but in fact he says uh why do you want to do it in 4 month ? This is unacceptable, this is too slow, it must be done in a month. Okay, OK. There is an incredible anecdote that you told me which is an anecdote about the Model Y, the Model Y. Yeah. of Tesla where there uh you present uh the model Y to Elon Musk? What year is it now? ? Uh, that's 2018, early 2018. So it is due out in 2019 and so this is the development phase. So the Model Y is presented to Elon Musk internally. Yeah. everyone is super proud of present this model because it is a incredible job what to achieve and then it is you must be super proud of you. And there he look at this model Y tells you what it is what this [ __ ]? Yeah what is it? that shocks him? What shocks him is that there was a steering wheel. [Laughs] It's 2018. Yeah, there was a steering wheel and he says but uh because since 2016, he was constantly doing, he announced that the car was going to be fully autonomous at the end of the year. Uh and so he says well it's completely stupid, we'll take her out next year or the year after, I I don't know 2019 or 2020 anymore. H but so he said it's it's it's it's completely silly. It's no use. Uh, it's used for Nothing. We will be 100% autonomous. I I don't want to see this stuff anymore. So the engineers explain but no but This is what we will not be approved. He says I want I don't care about you take this thing away from me. I don't want it anymore see. If I see that again I'll fire everyone. So uh It's crazy. But what is really interesting in this anecdote, it is that many people say about Elon Musk when he makes his announcements, we can draw a parallel with by example I'm going to Mars in 2028, huh. He actually really believes it. He believes it really what. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a fuss, no, it's convinced. Yeah. So with this Model Y, you present the car to her, she must come out in 2020. He said that the Cars would be self-driving by then. So he aligns the company for that she is, he believes it. Yeah, except that you know very well that it is that it will never happen. So the engineers decide to have two two versions, one with and one without the steering wheel until the moment. You have yourself in fact that you told him yes yes, there has no problem getting rid of the Yeah. Yeah. of the problem what Elon. But you have maintained two lines of of production. A No no, it was just it was on it was on designs so yeah. So it lasted I think 4-5 months. until they realize that it was going to take much longer. So there, he asks, he says "Ah, we must even if we add the steering wheel." So there was the Ah yes. SO, How does that work? When he realizes that he was wrong, that is to say that and there, it is not said "I wasted 4 or 5 months for the company." No, that's it. There is no feeling, there is just we have to we have to do that. And so you in the submarine, you had maintained a version with steering wheel that he was not aware of. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't see that. Yeah. Yeah. And uh and you you him you said well yes, we will we will do in so we're going to put a steering wheel back, there is No problem. Except that it was he was already there at the wheel. But yeah, but that's an example but there is constantly had things like that because you are obliged to so he constantly sets goals uh unattainable some of which you manage to reach taken by miracle finally by of of of incredible feat. But often you don't succeed because It's just unfeasible, impossible. So, you have to constantly get to navigate, to manage multiple types of multiple types of subjects and objectives which give uh while keeping the course on what is really important and what what must be done so that the box turns. So it's Tesla, that's it which is actually exhausting, is managing all that. So what is Tesla? This box is a miracle, it holds up miracle or not? There is it is a model unique uh which others should to be inspired. I think there are a lot, uh a lot to be inspired. on all technological choices. So what I was saying about the simplification of architecture, software integration, that's what things that are really revolutionary whose now the new builders are inspired by uh y including the Chinese. on how to the mode of management. If you take off the layer a little inhuman management of the CEO, if you put that aside, the teams who who and the leaders, the managers who manage who manage the box arrive at actually do it at take advantage of what makes well, that is to say the simplification, the clarity mobilizing everyone on objectives, to make everyone give the best. If I talk to all the people with whom I have worked or who have worked with me uh at Tesla, you go find, I think 99.99 % if you ask them what is in your entire career the moment you have gave the best of yourself, all the everyone will say it was that it was at home Tesla. So there is still something thing, you see, to get out the best of each. Uh so Now there are many things to to draw from this experience there uh for the rest of the companies. Why do we care? goes from Tesla? So then there is lots of different ways to go kick in the ass in the ass. That's how it turns, eh, that's how it turns regularly and then it turns into a game constantly and it's him who turns or that also turns into teams both but the frequency finally the most sustained is still him and he is able to because he he does meetings with teams of all levels there are no hierarchy of things like that. So if there is a subject, a problem, it said "We're going to summon all the people who are working on this topic." So you will have beginners, people experienced and he can decide that there has the attitude of someone in in this meeting that he doesn't like. He will say "No, you shouldn't do this person that he remains. So let her stay." He told her don't say it to your face, it happens later. That happens right after. Or not, he can say to your face. If someone says something thing and he says "But it's completely What you're telling me is stupid." You do your luggage? Uh yeah, you have nothing to TO DO. SO It's rare. I don't have an example where he has does this on someone who is who is was cheating. Actually, it's more of a person said something, he said "But you are sure of what you're telling me there?" And if the nobody gets into this, that's it This is bad. Or defetism saying "Ah, we're not going to make it." That It's impossible. That's it. It is a cause for dismissal. Ah it is direct. Yeah. He actually has friends. Uh Uh, I don't know about that in my personal life, I don't have any No but at work, you saw it with a little bit of relationships friendly where you felt that he had need of of of of of No, there was there there have always been people, uh, in whom there had confidence but this confidence because there are moments when he is in mode in fact, depression or paranoia, finally there are some kind of anxiety attacks in do. And in those moments, there is some people who can who can approach it. Uh, not really friends, it's these moments there, there is there what? There is There is black smoke coming out. There are signals. We have a code with the secretary and the chief of staff. He says "Wait a minute." Yeah. Yeah. And him, Is he aware of it? That I I don't know. Yeah, I don't know that. Well, you decide to leave Tesla, you stayed how long in the end? Almost 3 years. Yeah, still. Yeah. Yeah. Visibly already the first four minutes are complicated. So that's a lot of 4 minutes that. Yeah but I was actually I loved what I was saying just now the time. I loved every moment and then there was a moment when I found that I was uh good I had reached quite a few goals. I had made some great projects, I had learned a lot and I felt like I was happening, you know, it's like if you have you won I don't know which Champions League tournament and you say there you go and you say to yourself in fact I'm going for a ride again, I uh and then I'll find myself in winter and then uh and then it's going to be ... spin, I actually said to myself the best time because I saw lots of people so there are both said the ways of leaving to be done turn to be in a depression in a kind of listen to Bernard here or decide to leave oneself. And I said to myself, I prefer leave before that things go less well and that I am that I am asked to leave or that I be completely burned out. So there was a moment when I felt that it was the right time for that. SO uh but I put uh between the moment when I decided to leave and the moment I I told him about it, it took me a month to prepare because I saw around me the people who were leaving. Uh, it rarely went well. H that is to say that even someone who decides to leave often uh in the discussion he says "But in fact it's not you who, not me who fires you." What is not is not very serious, it's just not pleasant. But we don't leave him. But yeah he has trouble with that he has trouble with that. SO I prepared my thing for a while months for it to go well. And it went really well. So you since you came back, that means you have to go see Elon Musk and him explain listen Elon, I think it's the right time to me to leave. Yeah yeah. And and there also, we will have to argue. That is to say Yeah yeah. explain to him why. Yeah. I basically tell him, I have I have gave everything I had to give to Tesla and I think that from the moment, you will have a version of me that is a a little less good. So it's better that you that So he says "OK, I understand. Thank you for everything you have done." Thanks. Yeah. And then he gets up and he shakes my hand. And there was the rest of the staff outside. It was one with one there was a bay window. So he sees me talking about it one-on-one with Ilon and Ilonne who gets up and who me shakes hands. It's a thing what's going on? Yeah because yeah it's very very rare. So they are said he persuaded him to stay and That's why he serves her by hand. Yeah, something like that. So you leave Tela and then you decide to leave a battlefield for join another battlefield. So still in the car business, yeah. uh you're going to dive into the war which opposes lift to Uber. Yeah. Uh, so there also eh, two boxes, two visions, two completely different styles. Yeah. So, it's funny because you join Lift, that means that when even you pass to the other side. That is to say that Liff is still the good guys. Yeah. You haven't been join, they haven't completely got you perverted Tesla. There was still one left part of humanity in you. And there you go join the cool bobos of lift. What was that? It was a kind he needed you like that for a cure of kindness. No, actually, I had I didn't really have any preconceived ideas, but I had the opportunity to meet the CEO and I really go there thinking well, I go there almost out of politeness because that I didn't particularly want to go there and I meet him one Friday night in SF in SF and there I see someone who uh indeed a nice one finally who had looking nice and so we go Ah, that's interesting. It won't necessarily be, uh, after the fact. uh no. not necessarily. Uh they are all twisted here in the city. Yeah, he It takes to be Yeah. to survive. Uh but so we spend 3 or 4 hours in his brainstorming office and so I love it. I say to myself, oh well here all of a sudden I go from you kind of fury of the dragon. Of the dragon. Yeah, that's it. And there, I say to myself "Ah but in fact, I can do something at the same time exciting but with people that's where there is this species, I had the impression of benevolence of What interests them about you? This is precisely the experience at at Tesla." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They say "The guy survived Musk for so many years, so He is unbreakable." He is there is no that it's not just Kon Musk, it's the in fact there is there is the the the have participate in building scaler uh the box so with some with some crazy multiples what. Here are some stuff. I TLA I had I had built an organization of 9000 people in 18 months. Finally, you make stuff, you So uh so any box who has growth ambitions [Music] of scale want to have people who have done things like that. So that was it. That's it. interesting because there is only in the Silicon Valley, you can find people Who have experienced this type of growth exponential with scales similar. Yeah. Yeah. With such crazy speeds. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Uh and that's true that it's rare. Yeah, we do stuff incredible in France even in the field of new technologies all that. But we don't have that scale. Yeah. We don't have this scale. Yeah. Yeah. When you arrive at home Liv, so you're going to be in charge of the So, well, I don't know about maintenance. recruitment, nothing to see there, there is more the story of the 4 minutes of the 10 minutes. No no no, it's cool. Uh yeah, you see less B I see the CEO on Friday evening, I pass instead of an hour, we 3 or 4 hours pass, I don't know anymore. And in the weekend, he sends me an offer. Uh and you start almost on Monday practically. Are you going to be in charge of operations? Yeah. Well, basically you're number 2, What. No, no, no. I was so there was a CEO who was my former colleague of Tesla who after became my partner. He was hunting at home Tesla the Yeah yeah yeah. to the great Lady of Yon who Ah yes he hated. Ah yeah he was he was friends with Travis the boss of Uber. Well he is friends with no one we understood Elon. But he had chosen his side. His camp Was it Huber Elon? Yeah. Uh I know not. In any case, he couldn't see lift. Yeah, he couldn't see lift. It was What ? They were weak people or they were nice so they were going No, I understood after. I have understood after. This is his story of robot taxi in fact. This is his ambition to make a fleet of in fact of replace Uber and Lift with its own autonomous car fleet. He must have to make a face elsewhere when when he heard you were going to lift. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was glad to be away when Yeah. He didn't call you or uh No but he has gets the messages across. He did pass on the message that he was not very happy. Afterwards, there are quite a few people also from my team who supported me joined and there he was really really angry. Yeah. At that moment, it is passed since but at that time, it wasn't it wasn't cool. You have still have relations with him? No. No. Hm hm. But indirect. And you could I call him? Uh I could call him but I think not that he would pick up he would pick up. He may have changed his TV number, I don't know. Upon your arrival, uh, at your place Lift, uh What condition is Lift in? Uh they're fighting against Uber, it's number 2. Yeah. in a state of great motivation because it was in fact there were plenty of projects for catch up with Uert and me, that's it, actually which convinces me to go there. H Uit very bad reputation at this that moment. H Lift had a very good reputation and in addition they had the ambition to catch up with Uber, to enter on the stock market, that's not done and and and beat to beat Uversi. It happened the IPO. Yes, but they have didn't catch up with Uber. That's not it. So when I was there actually, we had so quite a few initiative projects to uh to do that and we had a year a little more than a year where we had twice the growth rate of the and we went from 20% to 43% of par of market in a very short time, in a few quarters. So that was the excitement What. We are in the process of and then since then it has fallen back. And it's interesting because at Tesla, they have a guy like you and then others of the same caliber. There is a management style that is completely different. Bah Lift is recruiting the same calibers since they are people coming out of Tesla. Yeah. Doesn't get the same result. So it is really a question. It's not simply a question of competence, it is necessary, it is indispensable, but we could think on paper then yeah that's really leadership what makes the difference is leadership and the culture, the DNA of the box. And there, precisely, it is interesting. Uh, that's something I only have I discovered and in the on which I got a bit stuck because I thought like you said, we take people who have succeeded in this environment there, finally in the Tesla environment or others, we bring them there. There is there is a matter, we want we have a plan, a strategy. ambition is also uh but there is a problem that I have I haven't managed to solve it in fact my time there is the fact that the most of the employee teams at Lift uh didn't have what we at Tesla called the AGANAC, the Ilon, he calls it the hardcore, I'm all in. Yeah. Uh, they didn't have that actually, they had the comfort that one finds many in Silicone start-ups Valley, often among the most big, so Google, Facebook and etc. Uh, super well paid, millionaire through stock options with a level of effort to get there. In done, you just do you go out on the wave and then there you are, you arrive at Millions of salaries, millions in stock option and so on. And so people lose the spirit a little for boxes that really want succeed in areas that are not pure software. So when there is Liv Tuber, there is operational, it is on the ground, it's the margins are weak, finally it's really hard like the automobile. Uh, it requires a state of mind. you really have to go there. It's not comfortable. And the teams that I found there, many of them had this good spirit, you still have to Uh, it's okay, it's recess. So. And so if this is missing ingredient there when you arrive in saying and it's actually if you look what happened when when Musk bought Twitter, he faced exactly the same thing there because it arrives with the same methods. Come on there goes. And people say, "But why? "They don't know how to run anymore. There not because there is not the same so there were great teams, amazing people, but this was missing this spirit of if we don't give ourselves to 200%, we won't get there. Uber had it uh Uber was washing in its early days, minds hyper aggressive, including from a point of view negative view. Uh, if we have to break the laws, we will do it and so on. Uh and they kept after the taste of the risk who did it in the end is still this what made them successful is going in all markets of the world, to engage in other activities, the meal delivery and so on. While lifting quite quickly uh it's it's retracted by saying where there so there international no we don't go there not because it's risky. Uh, to do some we don't go to the food store because it's risky and so uh so they went from very very enterprising to almost fearful in fact. And it is interesting in what you say there. I remember several things for me, it is that there is a feeling, uh, first of death imminent that you described at Tesla. Yeah. Maybe at Uber too at one period where in fact we maintain the team. If we don't do this, we're dead. in What's this at Nvidia Today. Yeah. For a very long time For a long time, Nvidia had this and still does today uh Jensen Wang arrives in meeting saying "Guys, we have to that we solve this problem. because otherwise in a month we're dead. There is constant pressure on the teams. That is to say, to succeed is as you have to practice all the time succeed. Yeah. So we can't take fat, there must be only fat muscle. H and then uh there is also this permanent risk-taking, that is to say of uh of not being afraid h uh to go and confront battles that we are not sure of winning. Exactly. And an anecdote that I who had struck me at the time at Lift which translates exactly that, or rather the opposite of that, when we announced to the teams that we were going to go public. So there is has a meeting with all employees. So this is a very important day that you are going to enter the stock market, it is a amazing thing. And so there are questions at the end uh in the in the assembly. Are there any questions ? And the first question that is asked, is it okay? change something in our daily life especially ? Because we have noticed for some time now weeks that there were no more lawyers at the cafeteria for the there was a free breakfast which is done a lot in silicone valley. So we noticed that there was of the most lawyers. So that means that there are cost reductions. Is it that going public means that we will continue with the reductions of cost ? And there, I remember, I said to myself [ __ ], back then I was still optimistic, but there, I said to myself, I I think we're screwed because because it's just possible. It is It's not possible. This question is asked a lot in this podcast about what makes SCON valley walk and it's interesting because that there, in everything we said to each other, We never actually talked about money. Hm hm. Often, we believe that yeah lift 22 billion raised. Yeah. Uh, sorry. Uber raised 22 billion. Lift it was How much ? Yeah. 5 billion before the IPO. 5 billion before the IPO. Yeah. Uh money uh obviously, but it's fuel in the in the in the reservoir. Yeah. Uh, that's not it uh, it's not just that. Yeah. It is not only that. Well, if we don't have any, we obviously not moving forward well, but in everything we said there and this mindset and This is the thing we are trying to capture France, I think you sum it up really good. There we begin to understand this stuff a little bit. And I ask myself the question now, In France, are we capable of this mindset? Yeah. So, there are some people who work very very hard in France huh, and I meet entrepreneurs and who are those who have this mentality. But there, this level, this level there, this ability abstraction from his personal life for entrepreneurs, I think they are capable. Me, what I hear from precisely as an entrepreneur in France, is that they have difficulty finding people who are involved in this, including finally even more so with the youngest generations. Yeah. And work life scales, there aren't any, eh? The work life balance. Yeah. Yeah. Your wife by example, it's lived, she lived how this thing ? I think it was a tacit agreement. that she let me do that for a while that I seemed to like it. But he It shouldn't have lasted. But at one moment, she told me that there, he must you will have to think about it what it's doing to your your brain this thing. So because she she worked in Silicon Valley, she was also in a tech company but not in the same environment. Yeah. No, not at that level. All right. not at that level of of intensity what. This teddy bear side of lift Yeah. that we find, it is true in others huh silicone startup Valallée, less now eh, I have the impression that we have returned to a version uh a little more musical uh while Musk is no longer part of the Silicone Ballet, left him but he has still left a mark behind. Uh, others too, huh, but we also see at MTA that the state mind has changed. It's getting tighter. Yeah. Yeah. There is visibly more testosterone, it has become a little more masculine again and a little more warlike. For example, at Lift, he boasted enormously about treating properly the drivers. It was really a thing then that we remember from the episode at Uber where uh Travis in a in an Uber had uh practically insulted a driver in him saying uh no, that was that was a one big differentiators and in fact I was directly involved in there because I was responsible of the in the operations of everything that was a driver. H and so what we had said that it was only to win to catch Uber, we have to manages to find an advantage over the drivers. And to find an advantage on the drivers, we can't do it just by paying them more because the margins are extremely low. So it is necessary manage to find something else that makes that makes drivers want to to work for us. So it is What drivers need? earn enough money and have enough shopping. And that for to be able to guarantee them that, well that's it super hard. you uh and the third thing is well there is has things in fact in addition that you can to do for them who will do that they have a preference for you. SO there is the way they are treated when they have business to us at the platform. So at the time we said well there has to be It has to be human, there has to be have empathy, they must have teddy bears in their lift. It was you entered a universe when you I went into a book, the logo was pink had we had we had centers finally places where in the city where he could come with salons, you know how the lo They were your champions. So here we are welcomed, we had them refreshments, they could take a shower thing. So there was a a little bit of all that. Afterwards we said we must, we must even though there are some things a little stronger. So we developed some actually services that helped them. So to be able to work, you have to that they have a car. Not easy when you have when you have nothing, not much to buy a car. SO so we set up a service of rental which allowed them without having contribution to start working and rent the car. Often they don't have access to bank accounts. It is It's very hard in the US to have an account bank because you need a history of credit and so on. So, we had made a agreement with a with a bank that offers them allowed to have if they worked for us to have a bank account, a free debit card. So full things like that to make it easier for them the life. Uh for example when he with this map that we had developed, well if they bought gasoline, it was debited from their account after that they have touched the money of the races they were doing. So things like that. So there was really this spirit there. It was really something something really important in fact. It was a strategic initiative that we that we managed. And then uh but it didn't lasted because after the IPO, This is where the reality of being a box side started to catch up the founders. So at the same time there was the species of risk reduction, we were more less inclined to take risks, to try new things, there is had the idea that in fact the most sure not to take any risks, it is to It's about copying Uber. Uh so you've become a kind of copy 4. So uh so there was the reverse path actually Yeah. to copy Hubert, including in the treatment of drivers uh and little by little the dismantling of a whole bunch of services who had been who had been offered. You who have a guy who you are a scaleer, that is to say that you are someone who knows how to scale and things. When you see all these measures which are put in place place at the drivers' service, me Instinctively I say to myself it's great. Of course, my human side tells me and maybe we can create one difference and it's still a marketplace, there is a supply, a demand and that it is very hard to climb a marketplace because they are needed two uh at times uh uh not always the same ones, by the way. Uh but I say to myself, but what is it that doesn't happen? stuff is just stuff that makes It's going to be difficult to scale. SO uh on that uh I am involved in everything that concerns customer relations, so if you consider the driver as a client, uh the way to create a customer experience which is the best possible while being scalable, it is in fact not to worry about scalability before having of having created the experience. And for the to create, you have to be in direct contact with the customer. So that's why when I was at Tesla, I was in contact I was talking directly, I looked at what was happening was happening on social networks, things, I I each feedback of customer, I looked at it myself which was happening. So it doesn't scale because you can't do that on millions, but you do it on even thousands. And then, once you have defined the model of for uh to provide this customer experience, uh, top level, after you ask yourself the question of how to do it uh on a scale and in a way that finally while earning money and and doing it profitable time. But it starts with the in fact hyper detailed, hyper sharp. Uh because if you do the opposite uh Well, that's where you create these customer experiences that are completely disconnected and inhuman. And so yeah, i've encountered this a lot paradox there. Uh and actually this way to do it, it's like that that I did every time. Looking back, I say to myself that if we take a triangle, Uber, it has put at the top of the triangle the Shareholders. Yeah. The shareholders. Yeah. Immediately below the customer. But the customer wasn't the drivers, they were the ones who took the cars were ordered. Yeah. Yeah. And at the very bottom, the drivers. Yeah. And you lift, you had in this triangle another inverted triangle. Yeah. Where the drivers were in high. Yeah. The customers were at the same place maybe, but the shareholders were downstairs. Besides, you will raise less money. So. And then until the moment of the switch where it is And what's interesting is that in making the switch, it is by saying in done, we have to stop all this, we have to refocuses on shareholders. Well, it didn't work because now you look at the lift action, she is she is at 20% of what she was when after the IPO. Hm hm. So uh so actually, they lost the market share and they lost uh also the stock market valuation. But Is this a game where all way uh there was room for several I always found it very strange to see a car arrive with a Lift and Uber logo. Yeah, I think he there is winner stake what. So, I think that having both, I think it and there is always room for two. It still allows us to create, uh, actually regulate the on both sides, drivers and consumers uh so that there is no abuse precisely so that it is not the shareholders who win. Uh uh because as soon as there is one of the two competitors who are starting to make a little too much, the other can take advantage of it to grab market share. So so I think it's pretty good that there are some have two but not more but more that seems really difficult. Yeah I see not because there is no differentiation is the same it is in the more it's the same people actually who drive for the two. Absolutely. Yeah. you leave Lift and in retrospect, We talked about your departure from Tesla and then when you look back uh even if it was a mess at Tesla, when you look in the rearview mirror at Lif, you say to yourself, uh, you're not happy with yourself or you are not happy with the box. You were telling us earlier that the CEO does under his appearances Uh yeah, I'm disappointed. The impression that you're a little angry with him. I am a little disappointed, yeah, with what I have found there. H There is a bit of a mess. I think it's a box that could do so much better. H And uh Yeah. So. So no less enthusiastic that did you believe that at Lift these social values that we have as Europeans, uh could exist in an economy formidable like that of the United States and that perhaps that was a bit of what it was that you wanted to show that who you liked that Yeah, there was a little bit of That. Yeah. Yeah. And finally it didn't market what. Yeah. Hope dashed. Hope disappointed. And there you find yourself a little a bit like in a kind of Twilight Area and and it is Softbank. Yeah. Who will tell you "Well, well Here, come and give us a hand What. Come help us. You are going take on an advisory role, uh, on the part operating partner. Operating partner. Yeah. So what is it? It's a kind There is also an entrepreneur in residence. It's a bit of resources that we know are exceptional, which are between contracts, between two contracts and that rather than letting them play golf, we will keep them busy and we will put them at home in case we need it. That's it. So no, I get a blow of thread from a headhunter who says who explains the thing to me and who tells me "It's not that, it's not exactly that, it's not what you just described because This is often what happens in the in the funds. They actually have a retired hen and say it's not That's not it at all. Uh because you are not you are not old enough, you are not uh uh actually they want to do something different. They have they have identified uh so it's the biggest fund uh of investment in technology. HAS At the time, they had 100 billion, they added 50 billion let's explain because everyone may not know SoftBank. Uh It is indeed a Japanese background. Hm hm. Uh led by a man hm uh whose we're going to talk about who's called Masayoshi Her. Yeah. Uh, that we often see at the television. Besides, it is very close to Donald Trump at the moment. He is the one behind the project Stargate. He is the great financier of the Stargate project. It's a Japanese background but which operates on the American market and especially here in Silicon Valley for many years. It's a big investor in a whole bunch of Silicon Valley start-ups. Uber for example, it was but also WeWork uh so with a lot of success times but also with failures resounding who manage a fortune. You talk about 100 billion but it is today it is I think it is even more so today. Yeah 150 Yeah 150 I think or something like that That. So this is the bottom Silicon Valley stranger who deploys the most capital here in the Silicon Valley with this Masayoshon. A man who says "I bet on instinct." It's crazy because there you say these guys handle billions and billions and billions and his framework is the moment. Uh there is it There is an incredible anecdote about this meeting with Adam Newman, the the the the founder of WeWork who will get of of of of his I don't know how many anymore hundreds of millions in 8 minutes because Masayoshi thought to himself this guy is is incredible. What he's going to do is awesome. It will be called WeWork and I I think he had invested a total of 20 billions on WeWork there too. So me I think it's great that we're talking and that we have the opportunity to share this with the people who watch us in France. So your meeting with Musk, your meeting with the founder of Lift Massayoshisen, how do you meet him? ? Actually, I don't meet him during He's not the one recruiting you. No, it is it's a way of completely different operation. OK. So really Japanese is hyper-hierarchical. Yeah. And then he has he created this Vision Fun, so the investment fund which is a uh so it's a bit of a structure complicated but in fact there is a team in the United States, a team in London which manages the creation of the team, of the organization, the recruitment and him he only occurs in certain recruitment of specific profiles and on investments. So actually, I meet him after on investments or things like that that only on little man uh so yes, someone truly amazing. So you he said he invested on the spot, it's true, instinct, the moment but he has a vision. So there, it's really something incredible. When he explains his vision, Most visionaries say, "I, I see the future in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years years." Massa, he tells you all this, it's it's anything. I'm watching over a millennium. I I I look the future of humanity over 1000 years. Very Asian too, eh. Yeah. Yeah. as an approach. And so he takes you away in this there is a lot of poetry in made in his way of speaking, the images that he uses and so it is and he tells you so so in 1000 years Well, we don't know where we'll be, etc. but I know there will be intelligence artificial and he said that 6 years ago. H 6 years ago when there was no well, we didn't talk about it much there hadn't made much progress actually. He says all our investments, we must that there is intelligence artificial. We are ready to chat GPT, there are artificial intelligence topics, there In Deep Mine, there is Alpha who does things like that. And he already feels that it's going to be a societal rupture, global, uh from all sectors of activity. He feels that and he says there, he says we must that we are that we are fully committed. So I want all our investments to be in the are in the AI, which is very difficult because there is no there is no box so all the everyone is aware of this and is putting things saying I do I do of the AI ​​thing or and that's how it is all these founders who succeeded in get up adapt their peach by saying for to say what he wants to hear do. And so there is both this millennial vision and after decisions in instinct with instinct in the moment uh on investment decisions including Uh, I experienced that in one case. so the way it happens so there are teams working that meet the start-ups uh once that they are convinced there is a videoconference with Massa. So no, he has to say that he is that he wants to meet them. So that means that the teams prepare an investment case. Presents it, presents it to him, he said "OK, I'm interested, he said OK, I want to meet them." So there, there is a 30-minute video conference. Yeah. It's not very long, eh? You have interest in being good huh. So there, if Okay, we'll invite them to Tokyo. OK, meets Massa. But the meeting, It's 10 minutes. But he wants to meet them in person before Covid. he goes they go there, they meet him and if it's good there the investment is made. So there in the particular case, I will not give the name of the box but so they go there to raise I think that It was 200 million. So they pass the 30 minutes, they pass the 30 minutes. They are invited to Tokyo. They are invited to Tokyo for 10 minutes. For 10 minutes. It's a long journey but it's worth it. 200 million therefore they make their pitch, they make it quick meeting. who says "OK, it's good." And then, there is, uh, the protocol so depending on whether it is whether it is really glad he likes them, he escorts them to the elevator. Pooh means it's in the bag. If he really likes it a lot, he goes down with it them to the ground floor. That's it standardized. That is to say that it is it is protocol is the protocol of Mass. Yeah. Yeah. You passed the Tu you passed the stage. So you scrutinize yourself all these steps there to see or what is happening. And so there he goes with them and he goes down with them. So OK, that's it Good. And he goes back up. So I know after because that he tells me both of them founders tell me what happened passed in the elevator. So the time to go down is a big one a big one This is a skyscraper. So there is a few dozen seconds, but it ask them what they can do with 1 billion instead of 200 millions. So there, the CEO who is the engineer one of the two founders said "Well actually it will be useless because we are limited by" and the other gives it a huge nudge and said "Well if you give us five times more, we can go 10 times faster than what is this that he wants to hear." And so he goes up to Massa and he says "We will give them 1 billion 900 million." Finally incredible. Here we really are in the elevator pitch huh. Yes. You have 10 seconds and you better not say stupidity. And there from what you enter the two founders, you the engineer him. No, but it's useless because I'm limited anyway. I can not recruit more engineers because that we don't find them. And the other one who says "No, no problem, we can go 10 times further quickly if you give me five times more." They were 10 times faster with c times more or not? Of course not. Actually, the whole thesis the thesis of the vision fund was that you over-multiply, you You exaggerate the deployment of capital. Uh, that should allow us to have some returns on investment uh raise the stakes. So. disproportionate in fact. And in fact, that turned out to be a false thesis because because that's not all there is to it said earlier, there is there is not that capital, there is not only money, uh there are plenty of others factors and in fact there are not even only skills. So. And actually, me what I saw is that this is the effect the opposite in fact, it's when you make noise a start-up under the money, well there is no longer this feeling of imminent death. Exactly. So you lose the notion of to go and solve problems, to find solutions in a hyper way efficient because you solve everything by money. Of course, we can't manage to selling the product, it doesn't matter, we recruits 50 more salespeople. But maybe we just can't sell the product because it is the product that has a problem. H well it is no problem, we have we have we are recruiting 50 engineers. Yes, but it may be not the product, maybe it's the positioning. So actually you solve not the right problems because you you have an immediate solution. You have a immediate solution which is to tackle money, to add resources above. So that's how it is lots and lots of start-ups that have collapsed just after receiving enormous sums. H it's not a criterion in fact. Yeah. It's not the the amount raised is not a criterion of guarantee of success. Yeah, Exactly. you are at Sofbank, you are in this stable and then they have an investment in which they put a lot of money into also called Get Around. Yeah. That we know well in France because there is a story also with a French box with Get Around, we're going to talk about it. Uh and there is a problem with Get Around and there they say "We're going to take out Karim Musta it's ours wild card. Yeah. Well, the CEO asks 9 months later having received a huge sum taken away uh asks me for money again, saying he I need money, I spent it all and a little like he had received how much to the base? Uh I think it was 300 millions of things like that. 9 months plus Later, he had already spent everything. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Get Around explains what It was car rental. Yeah. This is what we call car sharing car sharing. So it is in fact it's Airbnb but for the cars. It is individuals who there is another company elsewhere in the Silicon Valley. It's always there always two who pull each other's leg eh. It is also directed by a Frenchman. Andrea Hadad, whom I know a little, who is called Turo T R O. And so Get Run and Turo is a bit of a drag like Lift and Uber. Uh, there you go, and so Getun receives 300 million from Softbank and other investors. 9 months plus Later, the CO comes in saying "[ __ ], I need money." Yeah. And then they tell him "Well, we'll send you instead our new guy who comes here to arrive. So uh who sends me there? ?" No, we don't say he doesn't say that right away following. Uh already, before we give you some money, we want to understand what is going on pass. And so in fact, yes, they had they spent everything. SO, part of what they had spent, it was part to acquire the European competitor, a French company who was called Drivey. Drivy that we knows well in France. Yeah. And besides, this is another hyper case interesting when you look at the differences in ecosystems. So to At the time, Drivy was known for having the best technology. Hm hm. have operational teams who held the road, even before Touro, having they had succeeded in find out how to make money, how to make the model work in France and Europe, they had developed uh only DV, they don't have managed to raise the same sums as Get Around who was in San Francisco. you don't have the capable investors to put 300 so it is Getter who has bought Drivy while in fact finally from a purely point of view quality of the teams' technology and etc., it could and should have been probably the opposite. So actually this 300 million money, he served essentially to buy back driving part. Yeah. Uh yeah. So you arrive in this. Yeah. with therefore a box which was actually when I asked how much he They had any cash left, he didn't know. We It was so messy that we knew not how much cash was left. I knew after that when I had asked the question, there were 17 days left. 17 days ? Yeah. It was during the holidays Christmas. So it was there there is the fire what. So there's a fire there. So the first thing to do is stop the bleeding thus reducing of cost so turn so turn of hundreds of people. Cancel it then They had very aggressive plans to recruit hundreds of people. So all that canceled hundreds of positions eliminated. Uh, and that brings us to February and March. and that's 2020. So it's the beginning of the Covid. So at the start of Covid, everything stops. Yeah. There we have a problem for a transport box uh not bad, there are some quite a few who died. Yeah. But I still manage to convince Softbank to give a little money to arrive at summer saying "Well, well there, we reduced the costs of the thing, it we have to be able to see this anyway that we can do." And then there's Covid coming along. and everything stops, except there is a car sharing activity which continues. So, we say to ourselves, well Why ? What's going on? During the lockdowns in the United States, there are what we call the workers, people who need to continue to work, uh medical assistants, people who are in logistics, in the stores, well, uh, so everything a bunch of odd jobs. Uh and since everything is stopped, so it's people often who don't have a car, there is no transport, they have no car, They can't rent a car. Who find this way super flexible in fact to rent a car from one particular uh which allows them to continue to to work. And so we see that and we see that the activity continues and that in fact it is growing while it was it was improbable. It was improbable. So we discover that there was a use for United States of the car sharing model that we did not suspect in fact a species of a little bit of underground economy when who was who was beginning to emerge. Yeah. Who are these people, these ants? that we see on public transport who go to work, who all of a sudden had more access to these transports in common. And so on this project, I convincing to hand over money saying here, it's going to be a strategy, it's a thing which has ever been done to provide a means of transport to all these dozens millions of people in the United States who do not have access to transport uh because that there is no public transport, there It's very difficult to buy a car. They buy this. And they buy this. Yeah. And there they tell me "OK, but at this point you have to be the CEO." So So, how do you do it? You will see the founder of No, it's them who manage. Yeah. Yeah. And so I so I sign. Who was the CEO of Gator? He is an American. It was Yeah. Sam Zaid. Yeah. H He takes it GOOD. Uh, he doesn't take it very well, but From the beginning I said "Anyway, It will be temporary. We must put it back thing on the rails. I don't have any vacation to be there or very a long time. And you were in mode mercenary what. Yeah. To put the boat that pays you at that time, it is Softbank or is it Goran? Uh so It was still Softbank until moment when we actually entered a IPO process with a Spack and at that time for reasons of clarity for investors and etc., I went through as an employee Getterund Spack on explain for those who are listening to us because it's not very easy to to understand. These are already vehicles sides. Yeah. Uh in the stock market who merge with a start-up. Yeah. Who allow the start-up to finally enter the stock market faster because you don't have the filing to do and etcetera and cetera since they are already That's it, it was very fashionable in particular at that time. Yeah. Yeah. Another another topic with full of Yeah. with lots of agreements also eh, big disasters. Chamat for example, PG Pataya from the ex metaums some nice bowls on that. And so we put this process there road and at that moment I I I I takes something away from me a year later like that and I go back to Softbank at that moment. All right. He had tailed you stocks anyway in passing when at the time of IPO or Yes yes yeah. OK. And you told me that The irony of history is that uh the US branch Yeah. She comes to be closed. Yeah. There is only the French branch, so the exy which continue. So it's actually when you put it back all that end to end, uh you said to yourself "What the hell have you been doing? European investors?" Uh you should have been there or the investors Americans, why not invest? directly in drivey? Uh finally there is That wasn't possible because for it doesn't work. Yeah, it's the French made handbags for us to make no we don't do we don't do get some. Yeah. That changed a little bit. little do you think? I don't think so. I see it not. There have been some big ones investments donated by Soft Bank in France, the Mistrals, things like that, but it's still no, it's it's very very rare, huh. I think he after this get around experience uh There, you say to yourself, start-ups are good. Uh no, on the contrary, on the contrary, to opposite. I see But you never have you have any ideas for a startup project hey you are not you are you consider yourself an entrepreneur Besides ? Oh yeah, well what I have done since, that's exactly it. So at that moment, I see the following so on Tesla, I see the model of how to build organizations, teams, products, who who that work and solve all the problems that arise. Lift, I see the perverse effects of the model. you raise 5 billion uh finally you put the people in the comfort that makes you have difficulty mobilizing teams and etc. Get round, I see the effect pervert you put large sums, you raise large sums and and and in the end all for nothing. And so all this makes me say in fact there is there are so many boxes to build uh but you have to do it with a model different because the classic model, it is finally, it produces waste incredible. the model at the same time uh of start-up but also the underlying model because there you have the ecosystem in do. There you go, that's it. Uh we launch some start-ups. The biggest one of the big ones The founders' objectives are the raise, make a nice series A, a beautiful B series, a uh and so you get into this gear, as you have made a nice series A, well everything everything must be done to justify the valuation of the B series. Uh and it's more to develop the box and do what it takes to make it work. And it's interesting because at Musk, he is not obsessed with the fundraising. It's he doesn't get up in saying to himself yeah that's what pisses him off big what. Raise funds. That's it. Yeah. And and and it's true that we are in a generation of entrepreneurs where we have who celebrates fundraising and it seems that their goal It's about raising funds. That's it. And you say that it is it is it is completely completely stupid. So I chat and spend time with two my former colleagues at Tesla. You are funny. You come back to Tesla he you in do. Yeah. And we say to ourselves that we must finally each had made others sound stuff so there was one with who I was at Lifft and we say to ourselves we have to do it it's it's it's too much waste, it's too much there is a way to do something something that is already nicer, that is interesting for us and which solves this kind of problem. So a background therefore we launch then it's a it's it's this which is called a venture studio. Hm. That is to say that it is uh it's a it's like a background which invests in our own ideas, in our own startups. So we act on the both as an investor and founder. It's called Divax. DVX. Yeah. DVX. DVX. DVX. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Where does this word come from? So to At the time, we played a little game of words on the notion of acceleration of the value creation and we had adopted, we wanted to call ourselves delta delta velocity, therefore the delta in physics the engineers. Yeah. And then uh and then there is an agency of from MIT who tells us "In fact we are already uses this thing so we found it something else. We have, we have, it's not at all inspired by NFX uh which also has a the even No, it was in an emergency, he We had to find a name. Yes. Who They have a thesis that is really on the network effect and that's what they try to search and also to create in start-ups to create this network effect. What is the network? effect? This must be explained also to people, it is the fact that at after a while size makes it create a network effect such that it creates a exponential growth because a A good example would be, for example, the Amazon reviews. Uh, that's the fact. that there are reviews uh by the users who actually make this network and this this network effect which so we go to Amazon because it There are a lot of reviews that do that well uh it's it's this effect of network which also ensures the quality of the product. Uh so you it's speed and execution. That's it. It is to find a formula of speed and execution with the delta between the two What. Yeah. in fact two ideas which join but who are completely at the opposite of what the les do classic investors. H h the first it is that so we pose a thesis, finally a theory, we say to ourselves uh when you look at what's happening with start-ups, so there are some that Some succeed, some fail. And in the classic model, that which fails, so they fail to different stages, but the founders will always try to prolong the box life until moment when there is no more hope. They refuse to die. They refuse to die and refuse to admit that it won't work. H then that's enough difficult because those who succeed are precisely those who have succeeded in pass these stages where they were going die. They continued to believe it. Hm. And and therefore, all the founders are pushed to continue until there are no more hope. And we say to ourselves, "OK, actually, he must there is still a way to find rather if a start-up will work or not." If we manage to create a model, then with our experience uh data model compared as a result, the extrapolation, the thing, you must be able to predict rather if a box will work or not. And so if you manage to do that, that means that you are able to make the decision to stop it or continue. Uh when you decide to stop it, you stop it earlier, so you lose less. H so from the moment you do that, it means that you stop it earlier, so you have less lost. The one you continue is because you have the conviction that they So go there you can put more. SO Now you can do something that is very difficult to do in the classic model which is that you are you are losers, you don't lose much and you are winner, you win a lot because you put more. So this is the first one part of our thesis. The second is that it is say if we are we are basically pieces business people, business at last entrepreneurs, uh, operators, managers, we are not bankers. In our experience, we have been able to influence the trajectory of a company, to allow him to succeed where she could have failed. So we have a role, we played roles in the success of So if we apply this to start-ups, we must also be able to to influence uh the trajectory and the probability of success. So if you put these two things together, you create a model in investment fact which is hyper concentrated, where we are hyper involved, but with this this theory we stop them rather and put the package when you are convinced. Actually, a return on investment model which is completely different from du classic model. So this is what we have mounted so it's been 5 years now. Actually, we launched it when I was still at Softbank and when I left Softbank he has it was going to be 3 years, 2 years and half, I went full time in there. So, we are now 4 years old and a half years of experience. We saw that it actually works, that it works at point that there are more and more of investors who are interested in thing and to your model, it's still interesting and if we did something thing, went to speed speed according to. So it is But that Yoshison, he invested in you. Uh, not yet. him it must be it must be it must be It's finally starting, there's no more zero in the to interest him on your thesis that I love and which is the opposite of what I did to my little one level as a business where it is really a numbers game and deploy pray uh and I find that super interesting and the more I did it, the more convinced I am because of what you're saying, uh there because we talked about it together before this recording. I am came to the conclusion that we were serving nothing in this in the previous model, finally in the model opposite to the shot. Yeah. That is to say, I was telling you that in fact there are two categories of entrepreneurs, there are the good ones and the bad. Uh well, obviously when you invest, you think they are all good. Uh uh do you realize that they are not all, but the good ones, they have don't need you because they are good. So if you're lucky to have some good ones in your wallet, uh you're safe. Hm hm. And the bad ones, they need a lot of you but they don't listen to you. Uh so in both cases, you have the impression to be absolutely useless. In the model you describe, I say to myself two things. One, that means that uh you have to be hyper-enzone. Yeah. That is to say that we must also arrive at find CEOs who let you somewhere. That's it. It's not for It doesn't work with everyone. That doesn't work with everyone because I know entrepreneurs Alright. Uh, I'm one. Uh there is also an ego uh and they are they are inhabited. You were talking about M for example, forget your model, you will never have one Elon Musk in this thing. OK. Uh and then the second thing is that he we need a government, we need to have a share of capital to take decisions still in the box. SO uh where perhaps the model of studio that allows you to have Yes. because in fact you have you have two you have capital in two ways. By the fact that you put money in very early H H and the fact that you play a role of founder. So actually you have you have you consider yourself as founder. Yeah. So we have actions as a co-founder individually. the studio, the OK platform and like investor uh so after that it depends on who is this what brings the idea to what finally it there are several possible configurations but basically it is so there are cases where it was we who had the idea it is This is our idea, we're starting it so here we are, we start in fact we have 100% of the capital and there we bring someone who comes to help us develop we give it a little and then to the opposite where it is someone who has a idea We arrive and help him. But indeed, it only works with people who want this partnership, get a little bit of a rip-off too. Yeah. So, it's not everyone, but there are still a lot of them because there are a lot of people who who say We often have this discussion because that someone says "But why do I tell you I will let you have 50% of my box?" That's what you take. This is a case, it goes from 20 to 80 in function of of the configuration. or even 10, well it really depends. But let's say 50%. And we say OK, but in 50% does that mean nothing because is it better to have 50% uh 10 or 50% of 1000 or 90% of 10 or 50% of 1000? And so people who want to work with us, these are those who say "Yes, actually there is a way to do it better, to increase the probability of success and size of the success, success." Uh so these people actually it works for them works really well. So we have Yeah. In 4 years, we have created a portfolio of 10 10 start-ups. In which sector? almost all possible sectors. We have restricted to the At the beginning, we did both B2C and B2B. Now we have decided to focus on B2B. It's tech but not just software. Uh, if there is software, it's mainly software but applied to industries uh that we do cybersecurity, we do mobility, therefore the automobile, we do retail, e-commerce, fintech. The proportion of boxes that are yours own ideas and boxes where these are What are other people's ideas? Uh 7 which are our ideas, three which are the others. In France, there is a studio that you certainly know who is called Exa, uh, directed by Thboier, at Maurice Sepulcre and Quentin Nickm, I'm tired of it maybe forget. There are others founders. In any case, it is them that that I know. And uh they do a little bit of what this that you say. They are just their ideas and Ideas are quite easy after all. There is no shortage of ideas. It's not what is missing. I don't know who it is anymore who was telling me some ideas the other day I have some every morning when I go to the toilet. They are often shitty ideas. But uh one of their difficulties because that I know them well at Exa and we have I know this model well for having discussed with them. I was told the The difficulty is to find precisely these people. Yeah. uh these CEOs that we are going to put at the head of these uh of these projects. Uh, they have a methodology, she is she is she is she is she is not simple and even uh even having worked a lot on it, uh they say that it's, uh, that it's hard. Uh uh it's What is your Secret Source? What kind of entrepreneurs do these have? It is no I don't find that we have difficulty find this for each project. We has every time a handful of great candidates. SO, it may be particular to UNITED STATES a kind of uh what we did is that we said to ourselves from the beginning, so he we need to define the criteria for the profile of these candidates. as we clear part of the brush work, it doesn't need to be the same criteria as for a solo entrepreneur who must have been, one must be when even a little superhuman to be for be a founder classic, what, entrepreneur. Uh so we managed to find some criteria, a profile that is enough uh finally we are not looking unicorns, what. It's it's people so there are some there are some there are some Not bad. Yeah, they're findable. They are great, you have to be great but there are some it's not it's not one rarity. Uh and the other thing we have discovery but what does it look like? So, I'm going to tell you, but there to the other thing that we discovered, it is that who actually unlocked us, who made the easier task is that we realized that he shouldn't try to look for someone who would be able take the box from zero to 10 years, for 15 years. In fact, we have to start on smaller cycles because a start-up, as you know, there is multiple phases, multiple cycles, 0 to 1, a little 1 to 10 and so on. and so we restricted the field of skills like that. So by saying if If we start from scratch, we look for people who are zé to 1, therefore builders, uh, super resourceful, who manages to get by with no many resources, which have instinct, which are capable of being make product, tech, sale, to talk to investors but who don't need to be asked not to find 100 million numbers business, you have to go from zero to one. So you'll find me first customers, you will convince them, you will create a product that is not bad. From the CEO disposable. So from the transitional CEO because we don't actually throw them away. In did what we started to do, which is that we have people in our profiles who are super beautiful in 0 to 1. So we give them said "OK, here's project three next year or two years and then when you're done this one, well we'll have two more in the queue that are waiting for you." That's great. So, in there you go, there is recycling. So. And so after that you move on to this the next step where now This is growth. So we do come a CEO who is a growth scaler. This second profile is not necessarily someone who has mounted the boxes precisely. it can be you don't need no, it is someone who has participated, who was in in start-ups, who have seen what it is like hypergrowth, how it should be done to do, like what like you when you are arrived at Tesla or there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so that's how it is in actually breaking down the problem and realizing that we can simplify things a little bit of life. So. And so by having with this approach, because at At the beginning we struggled a bit and since then we have that we had this approach there, so there we has great candidates with people in more than we keep uh in the in the wallet. Yeah. And it is I come back to the first profile there, it's this 01. So he's definitely a entrepreneur who may have set up boxes that have successful or not. Yeah. Even at the limit, I wonder if the fact that Well, I like the Yeah. Yeah. In France, eh, that's the one who missed in done, he learned, he has a scar and plus he has Yeah, he has the In English, we call it the fire in the belly. It is the flame, the spirit of revenge too. The spirit of revenge. And we like that. This is one of the criteria that we are looking for because if you take someone who has never tried, Well, he doesn't actually know. uh what is it what they are attacking. Uh, so we have as a criterion that You have to try. Something that I find super important in this 01, we often talks a lot about the product market fit. Yeah. I have another criterion which is very important is to found it uh marketf, that is to say uh this adequacy between uh this first uh uh the one who will tackle the problem, with uh or at least the context. Uh that's also uh yeah. that I said with instinct, that's it It's instinct. Yeah. Instinct in finally it's a very thing rational that activates ultra quickly. That's why we talk about instinct, but in fact it's just dice hyper-rational indicators. So. But often people have trouble explain. So the person will tell you say we have to do this or the customers wait for that and you say but how do you do you know? I know. I have trouble explain it but I know it. Hm. What if he or she doesn't have that, well that's where he will be paralyzed because ah I need data, I need something, we'll do a test, we will do it and you can not move forward. H so uh so yeah, there needs this and you feel it. SO he is someone who has a passion for the problem, which has already worked above, which tells us "Ah but ah yeah but actually I had looked at that and your angle of attack is really interesting uh but who already has experience in the in the field. H hm It's also super important. There is a huge problem for me in what you describe it there. Hm hm. But I am certain that you have an answer for that. Uh This is the fundraiser. That is to say that when there is a studio in there that has a substantial participation uh Yeah. Uh, you're talking between 20 and 80. Yeah. Uh often it is a problem for the investors who arrive. So, it is a problem in the general if you have not because there is this Venture model Studio or Start-up Studio. Uh but if you if you come back to what I was saying in the way we build the thing, uh let's explain first because I always try to be a little educational because we tell you that and you understand very quickly what I'm telling you but the People here may not understand. try to explain why is that when a start-up arrives in front of a investor, this CEO who in the Silicon Valley mythology and uh uh the god on earth who embodies this start-up there must explain that it is not he who has the biggest share in the box, but that there is an entity in the DVX occurrence uh which holds maybe 50% and for them it's practically deadweight, that is to say It's dead weight. in the case classic, yes, because uh so the the investor who invests in the start-up, he invests in the idea, the product and etc., but he essentially invests in the in the in the CEO, in the CEO. And so he invests in the CEO, he will be sure that the CEO is completely finally has a huge motivation to make it work. And the The way you motivate a CEO is because that he has a big part in the dance in the start-up. So there is models they are used to that At such a stage the CEO must have 50% of the box of the box. or finally it can It's worse in your case because you you are even explaining that this CEO it turns out won't be the CEO tomorrow. So. So the difference is that we are also founders, that is to say that the investor So I had this discussion dozens of times Effectively. Ah but that's weird we are not used to it, your capable, your capitalization table is and I tell them yes indeed but you you understood that our model is not normal. Now what is it what is it situation ? Well the situation is that you invest in this start-up at which therefore there is a team of founders who then there may be my partner John McNeill who is very famous, very respected and on which on which the investors invest. It is it is a founder is an entrepreneur on which people say uh so not the same level as the one we were talking about just now. H but here it is, people they say we are bable, he is bable and he's a rockstar, that is to say maybe it's not Michael Jackson but well he has it so in relation to what you I was saying, there is the dead tax system in fact which, uh, is not the case for us because that we are active and in fact we do part of the reasons why the investors invest. Uh so I had the same thing with one of the one of the start-ups that I launched myself uh where the investor told me "Well it's weird, we have something but the CEO uh had I don't know 15% uh we have we I'm not used to this." I said, "But yes, but look what we have as co-founders." And Besides, I'm going to stay in it for the long term. because I have all this participation so I am motivated and interested in it working in the long run term. Wasn't full time. I am not full time but I work on a very small number of projects at a time two or three maximum. Hm. Uh which is also a difference by compared to the classic studios which have dozens of investments. And so that's that's how it is that works. We raised with highly prestigious funds. There is a need for this explanation and and they need to see it because It's all very well, but they say but how many are you working on? projects? three here and I'm in and they will ask me if I am really in the details, if I know what what happens if I make the decisions and I and and they win this this trust and then you will certainly sort it out also with the reputation of DVX when it there will be exceptional outings and etc. where the question will not even arise what more at this moment what. Yeah. Yeah. But it is indeed a model that is against the grain, that is completely completely against the grain and and that's why it is interesting. That's why there is lots of people who want us who want to watch because in fact all the objections that they have that people have, we manage to answer it. But it is in you have to understand everything to put all the pieces together end to end. H and there you say "Ah yes, OK, It can work like that." Hm. Uh so if you just look at one part, you say "But no, it works not." Yes, but that's because everything is in fact, it's like you're everything was reversed compared to what we have the habit. Karim, thank you very much for being passed by of the Record. With big pleasure. I had a huge pleasure converse with you and you it was it was super interesting. Thanks for sharing this. We can't hear you in France. Thank you. And uh it was it was awesome. Thank you for listening to this episode. and to have stayed until the end. YOU you are more and more numerous to us at we look at this format of the record. I will continue to interview these personalities, these Frenchy in the Silicon Valley and the US in a way general who have absolutely different paths incredible. And I give you see you for a next episode of Of the Record Amigos. Bye bye.