Mr. Prime Minister, thank you for having us here.
The whole EU is talking about you again. I see furious statements from various leaders, Olaf
Scholz, Ursula von der Leyen or Kaja Kallas. So just a few of the reactions about your trip
to Moscow to meet Putin. What did you want to achieve? Was it was it the Hungary rotating
presidency started 1st of July this year, which means that we have to have the European Union to
work better and to achieve certain goals. This is a very technocratic approach losses, legislative
competitiveness, very important issues. But we can't neglect the fact that we are living in a
very special time. This is wartime. So I think the presidency of the European Union, I mean, the
European Council simply cannot afford not to deal with how to get closer to peace and whether is
there any chance to close the war. Ceasefire or peace talks or if any rotating European presidency
of the Council, you wouldn't have to deal with that. That would be hypocrisy. So I have a strong
moral and political motivation that we have to do something. And my estimation is that in the
forthcoming two, three months till the American election, what will what will happen on the front
line? It will be far worse than it was up to now. Why do you think so? More weapons are there
and the Russians are moving Khuzestan lately had sold the energy of the confrontation. The number
of deaths, the lost lives, the casualties will be more brutal than it was in the last seven months.
Even the previous period was also very brutal. For what is ahead of us is far worse than we think
now. So my my motivation is that if we would like to do something and they we saw and to change from
war policy for supporting policy to other to the peace policy, this is the right time to do so. The
question is how we can do that. Why do you think so that it will be more brutal as your argument
that the Russians cannot be stopped because we see little success? Also on the Ukrainian side was
Western weapons. There was you know, the Russians tried to go closer to Kharkiv region. They tried
to attack in several occasions. It's not the case that the Russians are really having big successes
so far. This I'm not speaking about successes. I am speaking about energy, which is invested into
the frontline. And they had a chance to have a conversation with the Ukrainian president and the
Russian president. And believe me, believe me, that the forthcoming two, three months will be far
more brutal than anything. Why do you think so? Did Putin tell you that both sides is very much
committed to do so soon? The Ukrainians are now now the a country happy because it's not a proper
but an appropriate expression. But they are more optimistic because they got a good quantity and
quality of new weapons and they will use it. So the energy which we confronted on both sides
will be different than it was in the previous one. So so we Europeans, if we would like to
get less shadow on the European life of the war, we should not of great number one argument is
loss is life. Yeah. So life itself is this is the number one moral motivation. But the second the
self interest of Europe because what's going on is very bad for you. The argument from EU politicians
would be that a trip like you did to Moscow would divide the position inside Europe and to show
Putin that Europe is not talking was one voice. Very primitive, very primitive. What I am doing is
not that there are five main actors in this very complicated situation, and now I have met two
out of the five Ukrainians, Russians than the United States. Then China, then European Union.
They will continue to manage to get and collect the opinions, the position, the talks, how we
can formulate to find a way, the quickest way to the ceasefire and to the peace. It was not
just to do a trip to Kiev and Moscow. It will be continued. What is your idea? How can there be
peace? I mean, if we look on the Russian position, the Russians say all the regions, including
separate Kharkiv, Luhansk, Donetsk is Russian and they say, you know, we go on and we will fight
and we will take at least these regions. They want to destabilize the Kiev government. So how can
there be peace? Do you see any chance I mean, what did Putin tell you? The problem is that
you, as many of the European politicians, would like to get a solution immediately by 100%.
There is no that kind of solution. How the road to the peace starts is that those who are in the
war or surrounding the would like to have a peace. So that's the most important thing, the intention,
the real human, because the war is not coming from from from from the sky. The war is a result
of decision of definite persons, you know. So therefore, we have to find those leaders of the
world. Hungary is not among them, for obvious reasons, whose decision will decide these or
war. Ukraine is one. Russia also because finally, at the end of the day, they will make the decision
but very important. What is the approach of China, United States and European Union? China has a
peace plan. America runs of war, war policy, and Europe, instead of having our autonomy, most
strategical approach and position, we are simply copying the American position. So sorry to say,
but Europe has a war policy as well. So my target is to understand how we could change the position
of those elements, those pillars of the situation. They thinking and approach from war to the peace.
If China, United States and Europe would like to have a peace, it's far easier for the Ukrainians
and the Russians to find a solution. How to stop fighting, how to save a life, how to negotiate
and find a durable and durable solution. I would argue there's always the question of costs,
because the Ukrainians would argue if we give territory to the Russians, our people have to live
under Russian law, that they will torture them, they will kill them, that they will, you know,
have to live under under Russian culture. There's no Ukrainian books anymore, no Ukrainian
culture. And that they can't accept that. Yeah, I would not like to go into details about the
Ukrainian minority policy. You have a conversation now with the Hungarian prime minister. Yeah, but
you met Putin and Polanski and you have nothing. But I know, but I know. How was the situation
of the Hungarian minorities living in Zapata, which is part of Ukraine today, are treated by the
Ukrainian government on education, Hungarian books on foreign soil. So I would not like to criticize
while Ukraine, because they are in the war and then some of these in war, not the proper time to
criticize because their behavior to the Hungarian minorities. But what you can't compare that with
butcher or other times. But I'm speaking it's the job for me now is not to say that who is good, who
is bad. The situation is obvious. Putin and Russia started the invasion against Ukraine, but I would
not like to be indulged into a kind of measurement who is responsible for what and so on. My my duty
is to concentrate on how we can create peace. And the only way is that sending clear signals
to the fighting parties. Guys, we, the world, would like to have peace, to stop, fight, stop
killing each other. Let's start to negotiate one at least understand that there is no solution
on the ground. Because my starting point of the situation, understanding of the situation is that
there is no solution of this conflict on the side of the fault line. So the only solution is peace.
So therefore we have to concentrate on that. The main actors of the world would like to say or
would be ready to say, peace policy, what we need. This is not the case today because we Westerners,
we run a war policy and especially the Europeans, is difficult to understand because, okay, America
is far away and they have a difficult situation. During the discussion of the candidates, we
cannot have too many illusions how this country is run at this moment. So it's very difficult to
imagine major changes till the American election, which means three or four months till then. And
we Europeans should use this situation to have our own autonomous policy first, because we are closer
geographically. Hungary is part of Europe. It's sitting in the cross line of the West and east. So
we know how does it work, what the Russians are, how they behave. So we Europeans have a better
knowledge of this whole situation than the Americans. So we should have a deeper analysis
and better understanding of the situation first, second, the interest of Europe is in danger.
All of the Americans can suffer some losses financially, economically. But the main victim,
besides the two warring parties is the European economy and the European people. So therefore,
therefore, we Europeans should have our own approach to this whole conflict. And what I
see now, there is no real intention to do so, especially because they think that there is no way
for dialog and my trip to Kiev and to Moscow is a clear evidence that there is a way to have direct
communication, diplomatic channels on the blocked and all that kind of it's depends not exclusively
on us, but very much depends on us how we would like to. Are we in favor of peace, not the
continuation of the war? And tell us more about your trip, especially to Moscow. How is
it to shake hands with Vladimir Putin, who, for my opinion, is a war criminal, and not only
my opinion, but also others, and at the same time, somebody who is appreciating solid. Okay. So first
of all, we have to understand that what is decided by the war is not who is right and who is bad.
It's not about who is right, who has no right, because each party said always all argument why
it is reasonable to going to war. What is decided by war is who will die and who will stay alive.
So don't, don't, don't misunderstand. Sitting in Brussels, sitting in party or close to the
Atlantic Ocean, you can have a proper distance to examine in a more theoretical way the war.
But the reality of the war is not. That gravity of the war is is a very subtle reality. People are
dying every day, thousands now, every day on both sides. Anyway. So therefore, when we are speaking
about how to approach from the dimension of rules, responsibility, whatever is important, but not
the time important, the most important thing is how we can stop the bad thing which is going on
and killing people each day. So for don't mixed up the approaches to the problem because your
your questions are very much relevant tomorrow but today not to. This is only how to stop the
was all the respect. I personally know how the war looks like. I mean, I spend many months and years
at the frontline and I talk a lot to soldiers, to Ukrainian citizens. And I can tell you that
even though it's brutal for them and many of the soldiers are fighting for more than two years,
you don't find many people who are telling you, okay, let's negotiate now, because these day, if
the Russians, you know, come closer to my home, if they come closer to to my wife, to my mother,
you know, I don't want that. That's why we are defending Ukraine. So if I understand you
correctly, you as a German man, the German guy, try to explain me what does it mean to live
close to the Russians? So the point is, no, I want to just tell you how it is at the frontline.
The atmosphere of the Ukraine is don't forget that we are sitting in Budapest so nobody can
educate the Hungarians about Russia. I don't want to educate a lot. I just wanted to tell you how
the situation there is and what people tell me, even that the Brazilians, you know, it's
ridiculous. So the point is that Hungary was occupied several times by Russia. Very few
person of the world can know more about Russia than the Hungarians and especially the Prime
Minister, because that's my job to understand it. So we know what does it mean? And I can't
afford to simply not to understand how the Russians think and how to operate. we I have to
repeat, we are not sitting in a very safe part of the world surrounding only by friends. We are
sitting in Budapest and the meeting point or the division line of the East and the West and the
war is just in the next door. Next door, Country four. So we know what's going on. What does it
mean? Russia, how they think, how they react. And I am sure that Europe cannot afford the luxury
not to get be involved directly to communication, not only the Ukrainians but the Russians also.
Otherwise they will simply not understand what is in their mind. That's what I'm arguing in
favor not about who is right and who is not, because my target is peace and ceasefire. On
the other end, I hear from the Ukrainian side and also from NATO's people and European side is
even if there would be a ceasefire now and Putin would accept that, let's say, you know, the lines
how they are right now that his strategy would be to rebuild his army and to attack again and two,
three, four, five years. So they would argue we tried it with Minsk. And after Minsk, the full
invasion of Ukraine happened seven years later. Yeah, the the lessons of the Minsk is a serious
issue. So we should think about what is the real consequences of that. But I think Mr. Minsk was
far better than the situation is today. So don't underestimate the result of Minsk delivered by
the Minsk Treaty because for several years Minsk delivered a better position. I can't say good, but
a better one than believe. Now the question is, after Minsk, why The Europeans were not able
to understand that we have a job to be done. That's is the problem anyway. Now we start about
defense industry. No, we stopped about European security. Why not ten years ago, which was obvious
that after Minsk there would be a period when everybody tried to re establish its position and
Europe should have a clear cut foreign and defense policy for today. We haven't done so anyway. So
it's just in brackets. But back back to back to the point. Your point, I mean, which is very much
relevant. So my conversation with the two leaders lead us or led me exactly to your point, the same
argument on both side, because my question was to both leader I'm not negotiating at all because I
don't have a mandate to negotiate. I am I try to have the European leaders to understand what
are the limits of the peace possibilities. And also I am raising questions and collecting
information and making reports to the European leaders. So I raise the question to both leaders
Is it the possibility for creation of a limited time ceasefire which can accelerate the peace
talks and then enjoying the good consequences of an accelerated peace talks? Because now
everybody's thinking just the opposite. First, we have to make a peace agreement, and when
there is a peace agreement, then we can have a ceasefire. And they were not positive on that.
None of them. They said exactly the same thing as you, the Ukrainians and the Russians. Ceasefire
would be the interest of the other because during the ceasefire they can reorganize their
position in preparation to continue to war. Okay, I understand that position, but that's why the
mediators has a role to be that. When you met Putin, did you get the feeling that Putin
thinks he's winning? It's more than that. What he thinks he has. He has a clear vision
about what's going on and how Russia will win the same result. What does he say? The same with
Zelensky. Zelensky has a clear vision in his mind, explaining how Ukraine we win, how does how does
Putin explain how he will win? Because he's not making big movements so far. That's very easy.
Look at the realities, figures, sources of energy, number of people and soldiers. So it may say
it cannot be lost. It's very logical to mean soldiers, the soldiers, equipment, technology,
which shields in a war. So to defeat Russia is an idea which in Russia is a you know, it's
it's even difficult to imagine, You know, so it's the possibility that Russia will be beaten
is totally out of any calculation. Did you talk with Putin about the fact how many Russian men
died so far? I ask both persons about the losses, lost life and casualties, and both of them were
ready to say the number relating to the other one, but not for themselves. So. So they said, how is
the Ukrainian losses? You can support the Russian losses, but don't say anything about their own
losses. But it's, you know, okay, we can think whatever we would like to think about politicians
generally, what if we are leaders but they are human beings. So it's it's it's morally extremely
difficult situation to get information every day that thousands of your compatriots are dying
of war. So for it's not so they are that's the reason why I'm sure that even if logically they
are rather negative ones on the quick ceasefire and they are cautious to say the truth and so on
and so on. But I'm sure that at the very bottom of the things, everybody is aware that it would be
better not to die tomorrow morning and the Russian and then the Ukrainian who met Putin for several
hours. What do you think is his real goal right now? Is it the same as it was at the beginning of
the war when he wanted, you know, to conquer Kiev, wanted Slansky to flee or to kill him or to
change the government? What was on the table when you talk to in Europe, we regularly consider
it a little bit too complicated. Now, what is the real interest what the Russians have clearly.
So we overcomplicating the things here. Putin regularly delivers speeches. Sometimes they
produce documents. I follow that. Even I read the documents, even they have negotiation
documents to the Ukrainians and 2020 to April about how the negotiations could be run and
concluded and so on that document and a speech he thought we should take more seriously.
That's the reason why I suggest to all the European leaders direct information they read the
communication diplomacy. If we don't use that, we will not understand what's going well. They
would argue at the beginning of the war, they tried it before the war started. They tried it.
We all saw Macron on the telephone with Vladimir Putin just before the war started. Schulz was
there negotiating even after the war, they were in regularly phone calls, but it seemed to be that
they saw it doesn't make sense. It was two years ago. Now we are in a war for more than two and
a half years. The the the awful consequences of the war is obvious for everybody. What was two
years ago a theory, how the war look like now? It's reality that's different. Psychologically,
politically, morally, everything is different and we know how we are changing anyway. Europe. So I'm
I would not like to neglect what is the impact of the war on us. Look, look at Europe now. It was a
passive, almost pacifist continent. There was no question the peace policy is the most important.
We are getting more and more militarized our way of thinking, our approach. So so what my argument
is that regardless what has happened two years ago, two and a half years ago, I mean, that time
attempt proved to be not successful. Now we have a lot of very bad experience of the war. This is the
right time to open a new chapter and communicate directly. Did you talk to Putin about the threat?
And we're talking about that for many months, actually since the beginning of the war, that the
Russian army could attack Natal in Natal country? You know, I, I don't like to be to become
ridiculous. So no serious man can raise any serious conversation that Russia has an intention
to attack Natal. Why are you so sure about that? Look look I know the Russians, they are different
than we are. And also it's totally nonsense to consider them exactly as we are and seeing the
they think exactly as we think so because they have different kind of history, different kind of
culture, different kind of instinct and attitudes, different understanding of freedom, different
understanding of of, of national sovereignty, priority over the freedom and all that kind
of very much different thing from the European mindset. Yeah, but they are rational. They are
keep a rational thought. Well, but how was it? How was it rational? So to interrupt, but how
was it rational to attack Kiev? I mean, in 2022, when you say the Russians are rational, then
everybody would say, well, this wasn't irrational thing to do, was it? Miscalculation? Being
irrational is two different thing. Irrational means to do madness, miscalculation, to do some
mistake, calculation, mistake. That's different thing to attack me by anybody, not only Russia,
but anybody of the to attack Natal is totally impossible because Natal is the strongest
military community. It's a defense system. We are far better and stronger than anybody else.
So look at how difficult is on the front line the Russians have with the Ukrainians. What kind
of possibilities and perspectives would be for Russia to attack Natal? You know, it does not
work if the unity of Natal is maintained, which is the number one precondition of our security, that
Article five and the Basic Treaty of Natal must be respected by everybody. Natal Summit is coming
up this week. Would you talk there about your experience with both Putin and Zelensky? But this
is not my Atlanta. What I am doing that after each meeting I made the report to other European prime
ministers and to the President of the Council to inform them and to make some suggestions how we
could go ahead and they have to make a decision. So, okay, you should know who you are. So we
are discussing a huge empire of Russia. You are discussing Natal. Natal is dominated by
United States. We have you are speaking about big European superpowers like France and Germany.
So among the 10 million country. So I know exactly who are the Hungarians. So why are we leave? What
what is our responsibility for how we run our own policy and what can we do on an international
arena? And I cannot undertake more what is rational for my our position, the size of the
country and so on. So I try to be as modest as I can in this respect. So it's not my job to inform
the natal ones of what they know. So that would be well, but they would, they would probably ask
you when, you know, if they ask me, that's another issue. You know, modesty is the most important
thing. If you are a Hungarian, are you surprised by the reactions of other leaders or did you know
that this would happen? My, my, my point is that now we are speaking a lot about strategic autonomy
in Europe and we do very few things in favor of that because what Hull strategic autonomy means
is not to have our own interests based sovereign foreign policy. And what we are doing is not
discussing directly, publicly in an understandable way what is the interest of Europe under these
circumstances. But we are simply copying the American position. I think we should start to
discuss a little bit more and deeper away what is the strategic interest of Europe under this
circumstance, and especially after the American election? Don't forget about that. So what
I'm arguing in favor is deeper understanding discussions to raise more alternative to the
policy line in European context then we have done of up to now. So so therefore discussion which
was generated my my trips and my future trips will also generate is not a bad thing, is a good thing.
This is a starting point to argue not only in favor of the war, but now there are more and more
person who would like to argue in favor of peace, which was not the case even one week ago. So it's
a fermentation. Me I say what we need and I think it's already started to happen. Did you tell
the Ukrainian president when you met him in Kiev that you would meet Putin and was he in favor? I
haven't informed anybody prior to my meetings. So, you know, sovereignty is important if you are
doing that very delicate, sophisticated job of the peace mission. What I'm doing now, you have to
maintain your sovereignty to 100%. So therefore, I do not inform anybody about what I am doing
prior to the event, after that, of course, but never prior to that. Did you talk with the
Lansky or the Ukrainian government again after you met Putin? Not yet. What would you tell him? I
know exactly. So what would be the next step from your perspective? The next step? This is going on
to happen just soon, beginning of next week. Have you talked to Donald Trump lately? Because Trump
that's a very important step. His son was here just two weeks ago. So you think Trump's going
to be the next president? You know, election is election, which is the greatest possible of all
of the years. How an outcome of the election is finally coming out from the individual intention
of millions or hundreds of millions of people. So nobody can say what will be the outcome of an
election. It's a mystery. Even even in the Bible, you can find the moral mass and decency. So
it's very complicated. But at the same time, politics is a field of rationality as well. And
what I can say that that is a very, very high chance that the next American president will be
not the same president who is today. Do you think Joe Biden is mentally and physically fit to be
president? I'm not a voter of the United States of America, so it's not my job to say anything
on that. But what I can say, Europeans should run autonomous sovereign foreign policy under the
present leadership of the United States. I'm sure Donald Trump talked a lot about a possible peace
plan. He wants to sit down with a this both sides. And he said at the end he would threaten not
to deliver any more weapons to Ukraine. What do you think of his plan? I think new leadership
will provide new chances. So do you see things in the same way Donald Trump does? He's a different
kind of person. And he he he trust and believe more on direct communication and negotiation than
the regular type of European more intellectually honest oriented and intellectual background to
policymakers. So he is a he is from businessman, He's a self-made man. He has a different approach
to everything. And I and I believe that that would be good for for the world politics. Don't forget
that he is the man of the peace. I am not saying he will be the map. He is the man of peace. Under
his four year term. He did not initiate a single war and he did a lot in order to create peace in
the very complicated old conflicting areas of the world. So that's the reason I have a big trust.
I know many Ukrainians who are very afraid that Trump becomes president and just gives Putin
what he wants. He's not that kind of man. Be sure to give somebody what you would like to get,
But that's what a self-made man is. Not above my father. Very logical. So do you support everything
with Trump is saying regarding his plan to end the war? You know, I try to be very cautious because
I am not just, you know, an intellectual who is writing something on politics, but I'm a prime
minister and I have the limits of my authority, the United States and other countries I would not
like to be involved in all to be political. This whole thing I'm not I'm speaking only what
Donald Trump or the continuation of the present presidency would mean for the world.
And I'm sure that a change would be good for the world. But that's all I can't say. More on
that. Have you talked to the German Chancellor, Olof Schulz, lately, and have you discussed with
him your view on the war, the prior to go to Kiev and Moscow and some other capitals soon? First
I visited the German Chancellor first, then the Italian. But you didn't tell him as well and then
go and then the the French president to discuss the situation, including the war, of course. So
what was the outcome of that talk? I became more informed. I was earlier in which we are getting
more the position. It's not my job to reveal any points made by the German chancellor, but he
explained his position in a version of it and they explained my mind also. That was not coincidence
between the two things. Do you miss Angela merkel? Always. it's you know, it's a very funny thing in
politics that because of migration, you know, I'm a strong anti-immigration guy and she was rather I
heard about that she was more in favor of to find the technical solution for that. They had a what,
historical civilizational horizon to approach this issue. So therefore, we were not able to
agree on migration issue and the confrontations sometimes were what I do. So I try to be always
polite, but that was very difficult anyway. So. So that was not easy. But but regardless
of the migration, Angela merkel has a clear understanding of this region, not just Germany,
but central Europe. He has a clear understanding. She has a clear understanding. What is Russia
about, you know, liberal democracy in Russia. And that kind of stupid approaches from many
Western is totally untouched. Her, you know, also. So she did not understand what does it
mean East and Russia and history and so on. So so she was a good partner to understand together
and two and two and to find common points how to understand the Eastern politics. Central Europe,
how it is related to Western Europe and European Union. So her perspective was very wide and very
high to discuss historical issues. You know, the problem in the European politics is that
there's a failed mis misleading understanding of political leadership because in Brussels and
in Europe they think that political leadership means to manage the institutions. While, you know,
because institutions are the key of our political system and institutions are able to manage
well the life of the people, which is partly true anyway. Partly true, especially when things
are going well, but when things are getting worse and unprecedented developments are happening,
surprises coming in politics institutions does not help institutions just paralyze you. You need
political leaders, personalities who can react, understand, and make decisions and not
go. America was death kind of leader. So that's the reason of my appreciation to her. If
Angela merkel was still chancellor of Germany, do you think the war would have won a full scale
invasion, would have happened? Would have never happened? Would have never. Why? Because she has
a capacity and understanding and skills to isolate the conflicts which are bad for you. What
the mistake we have done that there is a conflict as of war. And instead of isolating
it, we escalated it and made it more and more international. But we tried. Everybody tried was
means and Minsk was a failure because. Swallow That's your understanding of means? I don't think
so. I don't think for me, if you think that the political actually like Minsk can solve all the
problems, of course, is a minsk is a failure. But if you see that there is a situation which is
bad and must be managed somehow, the only relevant reference point is not how could it be good, but
how cannot it reverse? And don't underestimate the situation now. The situation is far worse
than it was after Minsk. So therefore the Minsk situation we are pretty sure would appreciate
today a minsk situation. But now we are at that level to the war, Zelensky said. And it's even the
law, Ukrainian law. He would never sit down with Vladimir Putin to discuss and to have peace talks.
What's your understanding? Will this ever happen that Zelensky and Putin will sit on one table,
the three major actors of world politics, China United and European Union, would like to have a
negotiation. These there will be negotiations at peace. And will that happen? We have to work on
the peace is not coming just by stuff. This is something which must be created by somebody.
Decisions on the war was decision of certain persons. If if if we would like to have peace, we
need persons who would like to have peace and make decisions in favor of peace. And we like we have a
lack of that kind of world leaders at this moment, unfortunately. How does it make you feel that now
so many European politicians are criticizing you, that commentary, saying you, Putin's puppet
propagandist? I even read and Applebaum saying the wife of the Polish foreign minister, that
the native countries should take care of what they discussed on the next summit because you
would tell it to Putin directly. They are very young ladies and guys, you know, not them, not
that old folks, as I am in the job. You know, I do remember in 88, 89, when I raised the
point that Russians would leave Central Europe and Hungary and we should be as tough as we
can. The battling war should come down. And we have to do it now, not 40 years later. I was
heavily criticized by the leftist politicians from from from Germany. Later on. And I said,
Guys, migration, we have changed your society, by which probably you will be not happy. So
think twice. I will happily criticize. So to be criticized, I used to it. If you are a Hungarian
prime minister, living in a place where I believe that's part of the job. So the criticism right
now and people telling you are helping Putin, I'm helping Europe. So my approach to this
whole situation is how we can create a better policy for Europe. Thank you very much for your
time, Mr. Prime Minister. Thank you very much.