I don't know that you and I have ever really like hung out out like right but also like what I was saying to you before is you're very aspirational I don't know if that's the right word but I really always want to be my best self you you're like literally of the of like the the Sea of people that I've gotten to work with on camera like you are my favorite you are the one that I am most confident like if I'm in a scene with you like it's got to be good no matter how the writing is no matter how mad I am like this will always you like never up like you're never dishonest you're so smart and like I I really like love being around [Music] you as I was saying in there before I was going to tell you this story I think I'm I'm I'm always a little hesitant yeah to to let it like you know I want you to know my best self because there's parts of me that like you know I think I would you know like I used to be real dude and and and uh I would hate I I would hate to do or say anything around you is that weird it's very sacred relationship for me very precious for me but it's fascinating because I relate to that deeply deeply and I I don't think I have the same history right so but when I think of my history no yeah I don't have the same history but but when it because of whatever overactive fear I have of up of people not liking me or whatever that is when I think of people like yourself like Charlie like Vincent like these PE Wilson people that we work with that I I so admire I don't ever feel like I'm fully myself or sharing of myself because that little bit of fear holds me back um so yeah so again I for we have such similarities I think but just from completely different reasons yeah yeah but but you were saying how you you're like nervous I'm very nervous and and uh I imagine that's like astonishing for because like look like most of the people that like come on this show it's literally like the only time in their life they've ever been on camera only time in the Life they've ever right and I I I I imagine they'd be surprised by you who like know knows what the f like you're you you're you're at least seemingly so comfortable in front of the camera but that's the thing right though I mean I you can whether this is true for you or not but for me acting and what we do there is safer because it's on some level it's me but it's not my specifics so I I can I can live in the feelings that are very real for me without having to reveal any kind of details that might terrify me there's something but I always um I always equated it to like religion I I am not a religious person I don't believe in much spiritually in that sense but I've always been very jealous or or envious of people who have that because there is this idea that like there's someone watching there's a pth there's some safety there's some support there's a road you're meant to be on as long as you are a good person you are following that road I live just kind of like in entropy right like there's just chaos and every decision I make could make or break me so that's very paralyzing in some way but when I think about scripts that's a path right so like no matter what I do in that scene in that script it doesn't change what's going to happen 10 pages later yeah so there's more freedom yeah yeah and I also think uh uh I think that's super cool and I think like religion too or just faith in general there's this like underlying feeling that you know no matter how far we fall or how badly we up or how base our our our our desires get or or uh you know our trespasses and our our our weaknesses there's always kind of a way yeah there's there's always hope there's always a way out there's always a way to kind of like use it to some degree and I think uh I've really found that with with with what we do in play acting that those cracks those uh my the most dangerous parts of myself the most weak and fragile parts of myself all the things that I try to kind of like stay away from that lead me into bad paths or like I'm embarrassed to show those all have a a real currency uh and and and they'll actually uh in what we do yeah you know I think that's right I think those things that embarrassed us or got us into trouble when we were younger even however different they were and are sort of forbidden in real life because like if you need to like get up and like drive a bus every morning or like get to your job and work 9 to5 like you can't be an emotional RW nerve you'll never survive so those things that I think sometimes actors are born with innately that are you know problems disadvantages when you're younger suddenly become the thing that can make you really good at this yeah yeah yeah I think that yeah I latched on early I was like oh something that doesn't despise me for crying at the of a hat great I've wanted to have you on the show for a long time and you know our our last conversation yeah you know in in in New York when we were on set you know I just I just I just knew it I I I just knew it and and um I don't know it's like you came in in the kitchen we were both like yeah I'm nervous you're like you're nervous talk to me about like where that where that where you think that comes from like that that that uh because I I guess and look man rambling ass that's another big difference between you and me you get right to the point like the way we fight for the writing I like it like take the weight of the world and I'm like so upset and I like fight over every little thing and you're like very streamlined and you just like say the one thing and it's always going to be all right with me I feel like it's always like Doom and Gloom and like and like we got to fight these mother but like we are very similar but we're totally unike at the same time and I think it's about this like fragility and strength at the same time and uh talk to me a little bit about that fragility and strength fragility and strength yeah holy I don't have a lot of self-confidence I think and so when I look at how you approach the work and changes and the way you feel about the work um I honestly don't know how I couldn't do it that way it would be too scary um and I I don't like it's it's it's it's an inhibitor I think actually in my work I I genuinely my gut don't understand how people approach the world with confidence uh every single one of my decisions is framed by fear in some capacity and that's rough because a lot of people talk about like you know fear is the one thing that will you can't let you know fear rule your life but I'm like I don't know what any other way to live my identity is rooted in fear and anxiety um I've come a long way uh I used to have anxiety attacks all of the time and really held myself back a lot and I think I've I'm light years ahead of where I started um but you know we talked about uh bullying and what that experience can do to you particularly because it happens at that foundational age where you are literally developing a sense of yourself and at that age if someone tells you that you are unworthy or ugly or not wanted um that defines you for for the rest of your life you know for better and For Worse um and so yeah having having been through that at that age and I get nervous to talk about it like I think there's some of the nerves is I knew that that was something that you wanted to talk about and I I don't I don't dislike talking about it but there is a sense of like even with you guys when I shared it with you um the first response is always uh no who would ever bully you like who couldn't like you and I get that that comes from like this sense of like love and support but it puts me in a position of having to defend myself how so of having to prove that I was right like like why would anyone bully you now I have to explain why yeah yeah you know and so I get nervous about that there's a there's an immediate dismissiveness of like well if you're doing well in your life now and things seem good or that seems hard to believe then prove it um and the fact is that it is an enormously uh identifying part of my life and and feeling like oh God what if someone dismisses that or doesn't think that it's valid um and all of that's stemming from that experience right like I was taught at that age to fear how people feel about me sure and so that continues to persist that one thing I also think we we're very much alike is I feel like this thing you know like very much saved both of us and and and we owe a lot to it and I think that what what comes with that too is this uh this this uh this hunger that never goes away yeah um and this fear that it that that that it could be taken away because what what what what will we do without it uh I don't know how do you H how would you describe that kind of within yourself like like uh what's your relationship with sort of hunger and drive I'm a show your work person right um even if the result is really good and can stand on its own there's a part of me that goes it's not earned it's not it's not good unless you can prove that you've earned it or you can prove that you did the work to get it what do you mean like Talent is a weird thing right because Talent can just be a Nate you can just be a charismatic talented person and be a fantastic actor and never study never do any kind of homework never have a process right that's very hard for me to get my fingers around so like I have just like composition notebooks for days of just work you know notes that I took for acting school for different roles that I've had theater film TV you know even just things I worked on for auditions you know um because I have to show my work that there's something wrong in getting something without proving that you've and who who who are you showing that to no one well that's the thing some I know these mother like especially in these days with like all method acting and everything who are constantly like uh advertising like hey yeah well I just got out of you know I just like you know was living in a tour camp and you know what I mean it's like and and and I think that like those are the things that like you know you can I don't know you can sniff out a mile away yeah um I I've never seen you be showy in in in that way at all no I mean I love talking process I mean that and part of it is because I'm personal and private and I don't share a lot of my life life I I do love talking about art and process and how we do these things in character I do find that fascinating pretty endlessly um but but I also at a certain point realized I don't actually have to do that yeah yeah for me to do my work well I don't have to write it down I can just have it in my head and so that was like a a shift at a certain point so ambition and drive like I don't I would never describe myself as ambitious or even driven I think I'm uh committed maybe right like I I love this stuff I'm obsessed with this stuff but the things that are required to be successful in this business at that kind of level I don't know that I'm capable of what like what what what are what are those things well the social Parts uhuh like I you know my brother does sound editing and post- production and we talk a lot about like what gets you jobs and I think a lot of it is like are you a fun hang I don't think I'm a very fun hang um I'm just not you know I I think unless you play board games or knit or you know I'm not a really I'm not a really fun hang at least not in the like but like or you could look at that is like you you you are like absolutely allergic to pretention and it and like you're not like you sort of I don't know I don't know Deb I I I feel like you just uh from from from from what I've seen like you really honor this and you like you honor work and you really want it not to be good because you think like this is my shot kid and like this will a director will see this and like there's no part of you that's like that it's like this is there's a faithful holy like it's sacred to you agreed absolutely but I think the unfortunate reality of this business is that the former is true right like there's there's a certain part of like of this business that requires a little bit of not selling out but a little bit of superficiality and a little bit of of playing the game and if you are purely kind of driven by hard work and good work you know putting out good work it's not enough it isn't enough um and that's okay right like but enough for what enough to be a headliner enough to like be the lead of a show or something like that like that would be in a dream and ambition of mine and that's been harder to make happen than I thought it would be in my kind of life like oh you know you you prove yourself here and you prove yourself here and you prove yourself here and it should sort of lead to something right and it just doesn't work that way um so that was kind of an eyeopener for me I think um but I'm still trying you know I just have to try in my way which is the longer route yeah and that's okay yeah I mean this thing is definitely not you know solely a meritocracy that is there's like plenty of like super people who never get a shot and and and uh get stepped on over and over and over again I just would like you know I guess I would push back and argue that like the people that are sort of only sort of kind of like career focused or or do everything because it's some sort of strategic needs to an end there's a hollow to their work which will eventually kind of catch up with them and I think that's kind of across the board and I don't know I think the dream is like really just finding something you you just like absolutely love to do and figure out a way to to be able to do it I think what comes with that though is that like you know it's very scary that that could get taken away and and and and I do um I I think that that's uh I think that really exists in in in in in both of us yeah um and and I think that we both really fight to make every little tiny thing as good as it possibly can be I think I do it in a super loud and Brash way and I think maybe like I like to you know and I think you're just like whoa like easy there killer like we can just do this like we we have it all here between us I mean you know not to bring sexism into it too much there's a there's a I can't bring it loudly in that way I will get fired if I bring it loudly in some capacities right I feel that very strongly the the looks that I get sometimes when I push too hard or even just the ignoring give me an example about that like give me an example of that I mean cuz I feel like everybody would do whatever the I feel like like on been on people will do whatever the say no I well or part of the reason why maybe that is is because I have had to be very tactful and state things and really you know you know oh that's a great idea what if also you know like it's this kind of like very supportive open general you know like when I see you guys go no that's not good do make it better or here's what is better and that's what I'm going to do again I just have this I just know that that be greeted with you we don't have to work with you yeah yeah yeah so yeah so yeah so there's a little bit of but that's but that's that's putting to fin a point in because it's not to say that I wouldn't do it my way even if that barrier wasn't there right right um there is something you know deeper in my character that asks asks of me to do it tactfully and quietly and gently sure um I I like like that about myself also I think there's something in that too that that I don't really want to lose that I like being the kind of person that is open-minded and and assumes the best in people um so yeah I I that you know that comes into it too with like with the anxiety and all that too you know I there's a part of like oh man wouldn't it be awesome to be so confident that I could just you know be like screw you do what I say but then I go but who is that for me I know that I am 100 100 bagillion per super capable of being stupid and being terrible like being terrible at my job like I I really believe for me right like with with with acting like I love swinging for the fences like I I want to be a home run hitter and like the only way you can do that is like to strike and like be fall flat on your but this is also this is why you're great I mean it is it's Why You're great and it's and it's and it's why I'm not yet you know it's like what no no but in a certain level right like there's things that I still have to learn in order to do that right that that that fear that has been implanted in me holds me back sometimes 100% it does uh and I feel that um and I think I can get there but I have work to do you know well look man I I guess it's like the difference you know look there's like all kind I mean I always go back to like sports but there's all different kind of players like there's the like there's the the one that's like Flawless that like never so there you go right like I if I talk about aspirations I aspire to be an act like you not what I normally get which is like reliable Workhorse you know great company member you know like like those things that are unexciting and uninspiring you got to flip the script on those words it's Flawless you know elegant like you know like I don't think you could could be bad I don't I've never and so I guess but but but I guess all all alls I'm saying is that with with arguing the fting try make it I I guess all I'm saying man is I I I've said it before like I don't think that in whatever kind of work you do I don't think there's ever a bigger sign of mediocrity than being like so uh like uh like almost like a helicopter parent like like you don't if if you don't trust your kid you're like watching their every move like you're worried about them and defending them like trust your kid like in like put faith in that in that beautiful child that they're going to figure out like let them go let them fail let them experience and I think that like in our work you know these people with their ideas like the prerequisite that you know for me is like look I'm totally capable tell me what I'm is that dumb is that like cool you're not going to hurt my feelings dude it's got to be a two-way streak like I I think that's bad and you got to be able to and I think that like we're just so you can't be so ego driven in in in in art that it's like my idea versus yours yet you know like when I really think I'm right like I I like well it helps that you are you are usually right as well which is good no usually he right in the podcast all y'all mother that no no no you don't cut that don't cut it well but the great but that's true like I remember we had a one thing with like the gun and the handing off the gun and it was a whole thing and we like delayed shooting because John had a problem with it but you were 100% right and there's this thing with like within storytelling even as like good actors like we're like o yeah good material like you get really caught up in like the fun Dramatics of it that sometimes you miss specifics and details and the fun thing about you is you don't miss them you don't get caught up in the the fun juiciness of the scene and forget that like oh there's specific human things that need to have if you're broken getting in there it's like I I already stopped believing it like you made it bullsh like great we can cry our off but like the reason why we got there was why would we do that I mean look I I want I want to learn and take a lot of what you do into my own practice and I feel like you know as I go continue to work and get there I will but there was something I had a I had a a teacher tell me once that I really really liked which is that like for an actor we're a little bit bulletproof because experience is experience right like having a baby is having a baby whether it's written by Shakespeare or the next junior writer the CW right like no if it's written terribly it doesn't change the fact that I get to have an authentic experience so in some ways bad writing doesn't scare me that much because I'm a little bit bulletproof I know how to sit and experience and let the words just float on top the words are not that important to me I spend very little time with the words most of my acting process has nothing to do with what I say um it's about the iceberg beneath the surface the stuff I don't get to say and I get to make that whatever the to be and it can be a million times more complex in what you've written and frankly it should be yeah right if you're writing too much you're taking away my job right like I I just did you know we did the play did angels in America and you know our director is this fantastic incredible artistic guy um you know but a lot of what we were talking about putting in was like physicalizing subtext and I had to kind of keep saying no it's subtext because it's mine right like I want to keep it secret so that's that's I think a part of why I don't fight in the same way with writing if if writing feels untruthful if it feels like it's or too revealing I'll fight back but a lot of times for me it's like a word it's like and some of it is with f like I with with female characters men often like to write that a lot of my lines are like I know you feel this way I know you feel you know like vocalizing the emotions of the male characters because the men are too you know hard to talk about it and so a lot of time I have to come and be like so I'd like to say I feel this way and this is how I you know can we write from her perspective can I be speaking from How I Feel rather than just telling the audience how he feels so a lot of the fight is that um but again that's a simp that's that's swapping you for I right that's a pretty easy cell and so a lot of times I will work on a scene until I get to a point where I'm like okay I can't do it with this one thing I can make all the rest of this work and some of that comes out of doing classical theater like when you do Shakespeare you don't get to change the lines in the same way y you have to kind of figure out the problem solve the problem make it work how can you say that and have it be real even though you don't you think it's right Y part of the work is getting there um that's why I try to do that with modern scripts as well and I will come to the point where I'm like I can't get past this one thing so this is the one thing I'm ask for um I would just say the other you would yeah and and you'd save yourself a lot of time and stress and energy and then they'd like some come over like um yeah could you just actually it's actually written you I'm like yeah yeah no I know how it's true I'm just GNA say it this way and then they'll be like yeah but could you just well I heard what you said but like no I can't do that right and then I'm a no you're not a you're inspiring at least to me you're inspiring to me man cuz you're like in Special Forces like you're like you don't I don't know but that's why that feel like I'm constantly know like that's where I live from chimney Christmas um but that's right but like perspective is fascinating right perspective is fascinating I look at you and think he's so confident he just fights for exactly what he wants he has no no I'm just like I know that I'll be if it's that way like like I'm not going to let my like my kid's dad be because you don't know how right kind of kind of fear-based just fear based so we're both just ter and I disagree but like I think fear is like a great driver I think I I think it's great I mean I do I mean I and and I think like perpetually trying to find things that that you're afraid of and then diving into them fully is like a recipe such a great recipe for Success what's what's the what's the healthiest what in your like what what makes a healthy set what's the healthiest set you've been on so for me it's it's it's the ones where we are all friendly respectful because the fact is if I have to yell at you or belittle you or fight you or kiss you whatever it is these like deeply intimate things that we do as actors yeah it's why like intimacy coordinators and that coming in I think is fantastic because if I know that I can touch you here to hear then I have freedom yeah whereas if I don't know where I can touch you or not then I'm tentative because I don't want to cross any lines for sure but if I know that we love and respect each other yeah I can hit you hard yeah yeah yeah because you know I know you're safe I know you're good I know that as soon as they call cut it means action to cut is free because we know exactly how far to go and we can surprise each other but as soon as cut is called I got to come over and be like you okay I love you you know that's really good for me so I don't I don't love the sets where there are manipulative tricks to try to make you feel something I want to be like I'm an act of that like I'm not looking for dirt but I'm just wondering well no I did a small movie where like there was a kiss in the scene so I knew that it was coming but like the director told him to do it early and like to like genuinely surprise me and I wasn't upset about that because of the kiss part and like Crossing that boundary but I was like I'm a actor my job is to live as if and not anticipate and like trust again like trust me right the fact that you did that suggests that you don't think I know how to do my job right right right um which is to live in the moment so I dis I dislike those kinds of things um it's just interesting when I asked you what a healthy set was you went right to like actors that you feel that like yeah yeah I mean well I guess because that's my primary you know connection I think the bad experiences I've had on set never come from crew it's always other actors it's always other actors um but yeah that that feels healthy I you know I always looked at that and I was like wow if I'm ever in the position to be the person who like has some Authority like that's what I wanted to be I wanted to be a space where anyone felt like they could voice their creative ideas right that like this is a collaborative thing we are all building this wall together um so let's let's take each other's ideas and bounce off and feel that that sense of like there are no dumb ideas but just ideas we might not use for for sure um maybe that's also because I that's what I want because I'm a little afraid to speak up and share my ideas that like the idea of being in a space where that would be like what you like Afra like what when you say like you're afraid to speak up and share your ideas like what are you afraid of someone's got like what are you afraid of I mean you do know like do you you know like in your in your mind and you're like hanging out like on set or wherever like you know you're you're like I mean you're smarter than most of the people around you do you know that I mean I know you I know you probably can't say that but de you're definitely smarter people I I I am proud of my intelligence yeah I don't know that we need words it's like smarter than or but I mean like come on I'm proud of my intelligence but I don't feel cared for or written for so have you ever here and there Eric Olson loved Eric Olson and I Ow like there's a part of me because he gave me that episode because he wrote car in the way that he did in that third season I really like I I love him he will sit in my heart with like you talk about like favorite people to work with like he's up there and he took talk about big swings right he took big big Swings with like that I didn't even see it but reading it on the page that like black box episode for Vincent's character right like he took he took risks and he pushed for it um so I I really love him and then when it came around time for Ken's episode he listened to me I sat down with the writer and she and I like really worked on things this was a a backstory that had been building for years and they let me be a part of that the director we sat down we did rehearsals beforehand and like in his crime Noir show he took the crew you know the entire crew Upstate for a week to film a family drama in the snow and and and gave me a dream right like satisfied a dream for me to be sort of like the the lead like to have that I'm going to get emotional to have that moment of sort of like you the heart hard work and the dedication and the like constantly being there actually does mean something because the squeaky wheel is what gets the grease not the reliable quiet one I don't get rewarded very often for hard work and that felt like the one time that I did right that he like saw that I had been consistently trying to do the best thing that I could with this role and he honored it and that's the best way to honor it like I don't want an award I want you to give me great material and and responsibility to the story that's what I want um so yeah I will always I'm really really very grateful to him I mean I've been on sets where people tried to get me fired I've been on sets where you know I've been written out of things and you know I've had all those things but um that that's a good one Eric Gets my my stamp Pro I want to work with him again deeply but we'll see yeah why why you think you got emotional there like what what what do you think that's about I mean I think just just what I said right that it doesn't the kind of work that I do doesn't it it's not flashy so it doesn't pay off in tangible ways very often and so I very much have cultivated a sense of like if I feel good about it then that's all that matters right I don't have I can't I I love external validation but I can't rely on it so you know I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't watch anything I do ever because that starts to put it on an external thing I want to leave at the end of the night and be like okay do I feel like I found something I had a moment that was real that I connected in some way if that's true then I'm happy and I can that's all I need so when something like that happens where another person vouches for me and says like like I got emotion up the top of this when you were saying nice things you know um that stff feels really good it feels really good and it's it's validation of you know the little girl that has loved this forever and usually either was ignored or sort of shunned for it you know um you know you talked about acting saving you and you know when I was very wildly unpopular when I was younger um you know I stopped talking for a while there was like a I talked at home but like there was a time at school where I just didn't open my mouth because everything I said seemed to sort of elicit some kind of insult or backlash of some kind um but I'd always loved acting and singing and dancing and doing things like that so I went out for the play I don't know why in seventh grade like just did it and I that was the only time I talked at school was like for my lines in the show and so there was a real part of like and then and then uh when I did finally kind of start coming back out of my shell it was with those kids right like the kids that I had done the plays with and they become my like lifelong best friends yeah so there is a sense of this part of me that is childlike that wants to be 12 forever but was so slapped down at that time for being that anytime I get any little like oh I like 12-year-old Deb yeah like that little girl needs needs that healing so badly yeah um I did this I do a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and I did this Dungeons and dragon show called relics and Rarities and literally it was like 12-year-old Deb brain on a paper that I handed to some people and they made a set and we hired people and we did the show and you can watch it you know and I didn't realize it at the time and then when it came out and people had positive things to say about it it floored me because it was a was validation that I didn't even know I needed because that girl had been so quieted within me um and I had poured her into this show and people were like oh I like this and that was enough to kind of make me shake I'm a little shaky now um I'm needy I guess in that way and you think you this like all stems like 12-year-old Deb like what was going on in your life then I I hate it I hate that like you hate what that like 13-year-old kids like determined the rest of my life me like think about like how many people are like walking around with that right well I mean that's the thing right this is not a unique experience I feel like most people uh had some form of ostr or bullying when they were at that age um and it's funny too because like I look back and I'm like nobody that I was dealing with were like Psychopathic kids that love torture it's just like a natural weird societal order thing that seems to happen around them that time and you kind of end up on one end of that pecking order so yeah I I I hate that it continues to determine the decisions I make as a grown woman uh but was interesting I just did a panel of some other women who also said they were bullied and in this business in this industry and I was like there must be something about like compassionate vulnerable people cuz I you know that was always a question for me of like why like why was I so egregious you know and I why were you so egregious why why was I Target like why why was this aimed at me right because you do wonder that because there's a part of me that deep like deeply believes that I am an annoying person who people don't want to be around like that's deep that's that's deeply what I learned like I I know that you have that a little bit yes um you know I I was you know they make lists of like prettiest hair prettiest side it's always ugliest girl in school right like and when someone tells you that at 12 when everyone tells you that at 12 you that you believe it right there's a part of that part of you that will never not believe that um where was I starting so like but like even like with with that like you're on this list like you are the ugliest girl in the school and then like what 20 20 years like what you're on True Blood and you're like this like you don't feel as weird as saying it but like you're like this like International like like sex symbol and like beautiful like again I don't want to go back to like how could you it's not about that but like like what does that do then like do you like what does that do when you're like object you feel like feel like an imposter even though it's something as as sort even though it's like literally like your type like you're on this list with a bunch of like preent like like like pimply face losers and then you're like literally like in the world zeitgeist this beautiful woman and one and but but it's I I to I I I totally understand how you it's so hard to like kind of um uh like it's so hard to to to sort of like smash or um destroy like these these but like H how does that then compute like what what does that do it's it's awkward I think also you know like we've done these conventions and things and a lot of times when people meet me on the street I get a lot of like you know who you look like not I know who you are because I don't feel like I like I don't identify as like like a a desirable person I guess um so I always assume that when people meet me I'm a bit of a disappointment that with the hair and the makeup and the lighting and The Styling and the setup and everything there and the acting that that's you know an illusion of some kind and so yeah you know and again I you know my my brain knows that I am taking this experience and I am blowing it way out of proportion you know like I I know that but again there's just something about your heart in your gut that I'm sorry you feel like you're blowing what out of course but I know that people aren't disappointed to meet me or that not everyone Finds Me annoying but knowing is not the same as like believing feeling yeah yeah yeah right and so that that fear is always there and you know I part of my response when people always like oh I can't believe you know you were someone who was bullied you seem so nice or you seem you know as I kind of go you know we present the opposite of our fears right sure so if my deepest fear is that I am undesirable and unwanted and unlikable then every action I do is in contrast to that it's to make sure that I'm not annoying to you or you like me or that I so you know I've been dismissed as like oh you're a people pleaser and I'm like it is deeper than that you know this is a survival tactic um and it serves me in some ways and it really doesn't in others I can very much be a doormat I can very much you know as we've been talking about you know I I jump through a million Hoops before I say anything anything that could possibly you know push me in a in in a direction of being a confrontation um yeah it sucks but I don't know I also feel like I'm a compassionate person and when I meet people who I can feel have that like that energetic thing we're like oh I can feel like you're someone who maybe got some of those comments or lived like that who have that little bit of self-confidence like there's a part of me that's like I'm there I will be your friend right like I want to be I don't want anyone else to ever feel that way yeah and I don't ever want to feel that way again so I I have that Outreach in me um I'm really I'm really drawn to people who I think share that experience you've hung on For Better or For Worse to this to this um to the trauma that was caused to you as this this young girl and it's still very much alive in you but I would also argue it's also what makes you empathetic and compassionate and and loving and and kind it's why everybody you know and I know it's like Deb I get it I'm a so I I we get yeah but like dude like you're not like I don't know I don't so hard for me to look at you as a door it's like you know like you are the person you're the person on every set I've wor like you are the the the Pinnacle you are everybody you are and and so it's like like you know when I'm going back to do this thing I'm like I can't do I I can't play Frank Castle without you I can't like I it's like you want to reason like what's why is he there like what is he doing there it's like if it's not you everyone else is got like you know what I mean so so anyway that's but but but does the impetus does the feeling ever come up that at me now mother like like does that ever come up no no and and I do wonder why there's a part of me that goes maybe it's just like again my doormat psychos won't even let me get that far but there's also something like I talked to a lot of people who's like they're bully they know their name it's a full first and last name they can remember every instance of thing it was a rivalry it was a thing right I don't have that because for me it wasn't like I I didn't get beat up right I got socially outcasted um and pranked like pranked like I prank shows are not funny to me they just give me hives how do you get pranked like what do you mean pranked so you know you want to talk about pranked phone calls like when your phone rings at 4 in the morning you don't think somebody's calling to do a prank you think someone's dead right you think like somebody we love has been in an accident so number of times my parents like woken up or somebody for that or myself right um you know I had evil like cruel notes and things left in my locker I had I you know I told you you know I stop showering after gym class because someone took my clothes and like threw them out in the hall but then you get called stinky because now you're not shower you know like it's just a constant thing even small things of like I remember standing at like doors trying to enter my classroom and just being like hey hey can I get by and people ignoring me like I didn't exist so I just waited patiently until they moved and I could get into the classroom it's just like consistent persistent not cruelty like outright cruelty but just like you are not of value and and it wasn't one person it wasn't and there were plenty of people who didn't participate but also weren't my friends so I didn't you know so it just it feels like a all I don't have that one person and I'm like that's the person who I would say to that it was just a societal not even choice I don't know it's just like a thing that happened and I I do think there's something about you know we think pranks are funny we think you even like the the notes that got left were like lines from movies you know they weren't even original meant for me um so yeah I don't think that these were like evil psycho AIC kids I think they just thought they were being funny and I was an easy target because I was going to cry and not fight back or I was going to I was going to just be quiet and not fight back and I was weird you know I was definitely like because I I I wanted to be a kid I wanted to sing and dance and do cartwheels in the hall and I didn't want to date and drink and go out and be Rowdy right like I just wanted to be an actor you know I wanted to play Make Believe in the schoolyard forever and I think it just made me an easy target I was I was a I was a um a a nonthreatening Target it seems like you had like like no relief from this it was just like you woke up in the morning and you knew you were like facing this was interesting they I the one movie I can never ever watch is that 8th grade movie by Bo Burnham I know it's the best movie ever made because I I I broke into like ancient heaving sobs about halfway through it because that I get that girl I get her on a level I don't know he gets her I get her on a really deep level like that feeling of like oh like your parents made it so that somebody invited you to a party that they don't want you at but you have to go because they thought they were helping right and it's probably a pool party or something where you have to be in your most vulnerable state but you go home and you're like oh this will be the one right this will be the one where I go and they'll be like oh cute suit or like oh what a great you practice stories and they'll be like oh what a great story that is I underestimated you like oh I wish I knew you were this cool like you make up these fantasies and then you show up and people ignore you and you go sit in the corner and there's like a very unique experience of being like invisible and so conspicuous at the same time wow you know everyone is intimately energetically aware that you are there but they are choosing to pretend you're not and they're not doing anything purposefully outwardly mean no one's necessarily calling you fat legs or moly or whatever you know I would get unwanted you know now now as now as a parent like what did your parents do that worked what was your par did your parents do that definitely didn't work and and and how is that going to affect you in case this you know when this rears its head in your life yeah look I mean I'm they get let off the hook right away here because I didn't tell them um partially because of that because I I knew that my parents love me so much that they would not be able to help themselves you know um and what did you think that they would be like disappointed or do you think that they the opposite that they would they would run in there and that there would be a school assembly and people's parents would be called and the fact is I knew that would make it worse right whether that's true or not I don't know but I knew it would make it worse I knew it would make me even stand out even more you know my solution was as soon as I stopped talking and got quiet and like stopped putting myself out there it sto like it stopped I just was alone but it stopped which was a terrible lesson to learn at that age but it worked I just knew in my gut that if I got my parents involved it would make it worse it would make me a bigger Target that I had to show enough you know it's that don't don't snitch sort of thing right like I had to show that I was tough enough to take it and I wasn't going to go running to mommy right so I think I mean I don't I don't actually know what the situation would have been if I had told them but I did not tell them until many many many many many years later um and I don't know what I'm going to do if this is something I likely will have to deal with with my son um I'm terrified of school and middle schoolers I think middle schoolers are so scary um and I don't I don't actually know what the answer is other than just to like I think what I like what's helped me later on in life is to know that it literally has absolutely nothing to do with me it's so easy to personalize it and go it's because I miss this this and this I think some of that is why I was a target for it but like I bet you most of those kids don't even remember half of the said to me because it wasn't important to them they were just saying something funny to be impressive to their friends and not be me right they're just fighting to not be me not be at the bottom you know this wasn't like a sit down we're going to write out a list a campaign of how to make devb miserable it just coincided that way and became the social Dynamic of the school like became to become somebody who's so wildly talented and so wildly loved and have this beautiful family and this be beautiful child and this incredible career and be so Ju Just beautiful and revered like that is possible and I think on the other hand also for people that whether they're going through their own and just want to step on somebody's neck or they're just so misguided that they're just going to say something cool because it's going to make that person seem cool or they really are just like a deeply troubled mother who just like enjoys watching other people suffer or they just want to go along with status quote whatever it is like these things have like real lasting impact but I think it's also like be on the hunt man like be on the hunt for it like find the kid that's being made feel that way and be the person that goes and stands by that kid like be the person that like squashes at like be that yeah sheep dog like like that is your like that is what you do on IE I think I think giving it a like there's a big difference between like fighting for yourself and fighting for a cause or standing up for somebody else it's way easier than standing up for yourself well or it gives you it g it gives you something back right it's not just survival it's you know it's defense it's it's you know it's it's being a hero you know and so I do I do love that idea you know like there that great show pen 15 I that show I can watch even though I relate to it but there's a part of me that's like but G they had each other right like that's what made so much of that bullying and that experience of that show um survivable is they had someone else yeah and so I that's you know that's the one thing I I would have wanted was like one bu and there probably were people who would be but I was so I was just so afraid at the time that I couldn't even reach out you know to anyone to kind of make that happen um but yes I think yeah teaching our kids to be the the compassionate person who steps forward for others you know if it turns out that you know my kid is in my position just him a full sense of self that like that it's okay to be uniquely you whoever that is right um unabashedly uniquely you and I know that's what got me in trouble but I don't know I I I just want to continue to like say that to him and and say that to other kids in his class and like you know hope that as parents we can who have been through that that we can kind of raise our kids to be aware of it when it happens because yeah like like almost like what you just said that that if there's a kid who's like oh it'll just make my budy laugh if I prank phone call this kid you know and for them it's nothing they just don't think has any impact whatsoever they just think it's a laugh one night with their friends and they'll forget about it in a month but it might have a lasting impact for that other person just implanting in their mind that it might have more meaning than you think and I think to take a step further that like that one little question that one little hesitation like is that thing to do like or like or to see it in your homeboy and be like you know why does he want to hurt this mother and like that right there like whatever you want to call it whether it's like from from from God or from what but like a spark of empathy a spark of compassion if you then act on it and say dude like why are you doing that like f like what like like no like don't do that like that that is such a opportunity and that's I guess if that if I were talking to anyone who has been a bully or has you know in a in a bad moment said something cruel to someone else or done something to be funny at the expense of someone else anyone who's been in that position and you know what I bet more of us have than have not I've done it right we've all succumbed to that place because Society is impossible but it's just to go all right you've made that mistake move on and be better right like learn from that and and know that what we say and the things that we do have consequences and repercussions for others um and if you feel like you can just get I'm sorry you know like I was such an idiot when I said that and I know so much better now and frankly I knew better then and I succumbed and I'm so sorry um we are not infallible people we are very very fallible especially when it comes to those societal stations stations um and so yes I guess that's Grace I don't think that these were bad people I just think that sometimes the world sucks and it's these very human pressures that we put on ourselves but then again like I said I'm the kind of person I prefer to see the best in people I prefer to assume the best people so that's that's my assumption of back then that this was never a targeted mean malicious thing it was mean but not necessarily mean people but I don't know I think we all are are are stuck in this like 12-year-old version of us one way or the other and every single person you talk to has a story from that whether they were the bully or the bully they had they got it from someone else right we all have a story from that and I think most of the bullies are just from being bullied just you know just like any way we can just put that on that mother so it ain't on me you know like that's the just survival yeah and so it's like again it's like how do we raise these these youngsters to at least be because you know in some ways you know it's like things things have gotten like way softer and and like we talk about you like back in the way like suck it up like what do you want me to do but you know and um but we've also gotten yeah you know maybe by approach like it's like we've tied a ribbon around it be like we'll have a we'll have a conversation you know I think navigating things for kids is like way way more difficult and everything's online and hidden and I don't even want to oh my God the whole like online social media constant comparison you can be bullied when you're home alone in like I just can't up to it and it's like happened before you even get there for sure for sure what would you what would you say to Deb what would you say to 12-year-old Deb my my therapist has asked me that several times and I still don't know answer to that either I no I mean what I would say is it's not about you it's just not about you it's just not about you you're the unfortunate you know receptor for this experience but you know it just it has defined my personality my identity more than it ever needed to it just didn't need to is there any parts of it are there any parts of it that were a gift well I gu said I mean compassion and empathy and understanding for yeah that's not like a throwaway and and I drive probably determination right um we talk about fear being a motivator and things like that I think that that is true it is also an inhibitor um I love 12-year-old dead man I just would do anything I'm I'm learning to I'm trying to get back to her right she's cool as man and like you you you didn't bend you didn't like go try I don't know I don't know look I mean you my my husband has it too he has this really strong sense of justice and and of respect for like each individual person in their in the way that they need respect you know um and so I you know I deeply admire that and he fights hard for himself and for other people and for me even when I don't want him to you know even when I'm like oh I'd rather be quieter about this he like no you're not allowed to come at my people like that and um tell me about him tell me about egyp like yeah let's let's talk about him he's the best um but like even that like you know I remember we were having dinner and like conversations about like spouses and things like that come up and I you know I notice a lot of people feel very comfortable complaining about their spouse or talking about like the problems that they have with their spouse and I we have problems we have arguments we have all of the things that all couples have but like my gut instinct is I just I always want to think the best of my husband and I really want him to always think the best of me even when we and we do the wrong thing and the thing that hurts the other person feel I just I always want him to know that I'm always intending and assuming that he is the best version of himself in every given moment and I I'll say the same to you because you've said several times in this that like wanting to bring your best self to me and all that I always assume that you are that is my base living level I'm that's where I'm comfortable um and it does sometimes I think let take advantage of me and you know this that and the other but I think my husband's amazing I really do and I think that a number of the best things in my life are because of him and and the way that he helps push me beyond my boundaries because I'm a risk averse person I'm very comfortable just settling in finding my routine my thing that I like and I don't I don't push very hard into new things and so I wouldn't be a parent if it weren't for him um you know there are there are places I wouldn't have visited there are you future plans in our lives that are huge Endeavors that I would never think to do um so I think he makes me Brave in a lot of ways um yeah in fact for this my husband does a podcast sometimes he hasn't done it in a while but I I you know I told him I was nervous to come here and do this and I was like so what do you like when what makes good podcast guests for you and you know he said I'm sure exactly what you would say which is like authenticity honesty um you know you don't have to be a great yarn spinner or like tell great stories cuz I don't feel like I do that very well um it's just about like being present and talking and being a little vulnerable yeah yeah yeah he's cool yeah he is cool yeah he is cool he's always been really I remember in the the beginning when I started playing that part and I was like I'm G to this up he was so cool to me about it he's a I mean he's a comic book you know like Guru well he just loves it it's been his whole life and so you know this stuff does really matter to him but but he's the perfect example of that because I think actually the people who love this stuff want it they want you to be great they really they're not against you they're not like sitting back show me what you got they're like oh yeah I really want John to be great at this so they're on your side I think that's right um and and and I think they like once they see your I I think in the in the rare cases when people are sort of like don't do the work or like about it for themselves then then they they they see it and then you you cross the line with this story all the time about you cuz I at the time I was a little bit I'll be honest I was a little bit like joh but what what in the world so it was what in criminy like how could you what what no you did nothing you did nothing good God bullying me dude dude trying I know I didn't learn my lesson I should learn smoke reap bro all right go why why me okay no not uh but so we it was you were about to come on you'd come on done the second season and like me Charlie Vince all we knew you were amazing we knew it no no no we knew it we' worked with you I had a front row seat to that performance if I don't get to Sherk off myself you don't get to Sher off your you're part of that um so you're being announced or the show something is happening it must be nycc like a Convention of some kind cuz we're all there up on stage and they play a clip of what we've done so far and it's all all of us at the very end is the back of your head as you're walking down the hallway and you hear you know the one batch two bat you know it's like you're like everybody in that room like wet themselves they were so excited they didn't get excited like that for any of us coming out they were so excited about that and I sat there and I was like what did they know they haven't seen anything that he's done yet back of his head and like think he's the greatest things since sliced toast it's not it's not you but there is something about this space and we go back to like it's not a meritocracy right like that role the cache that you bring your previous work for sure you're set up right like you're they're ready to just love you and there was a you know that was a moment where it wasn't so much on but just like wow that's confirmation of the way entertainment and human brains engage with this stuff and I was like so you've seen my work consistently hard for three years and I get nothing back of this head and you're like John man unbelievable we know he's good but you don't know he's good he could suck at this see that's so funny because I was like dude I was like mortified I was I was horrified and that's the thing you don't want to be the guy that like they see the back of your head and they crazy and then the show comes out well you're lucky that you're not that guy so well I mean in this in this case you know so far but yeah yeah yeah I remember the first time I met you we were doing the hospital stuff at the very beginning and you were you know I you know you were you you know when you sit you're you're you were like this you were so small when you sort of sat in this chair like this and I remember being like Oh that's John and I I had this thing where you know again because I was like oh if I'm ever in a position of like Authority thing I want to make sure that it's a really welcoming thing so anytime we had guest stars co-stars anyone I wanted to go be like hi welcome right always so we're so excited to have you you know because I just know people will do their best work and work hard if they feel supported and like welcomed for sure um so I don't I remember coming up to you be like hi I'm deah like just dorky me you know but I was very nervous about it and you're like hi yeah okay you know you're very polite and uh and I you know I get asked about you all the time and you know I don't want to ruin your you know your image you're like your hard image um but I always have to be like he's very polite and he's very nice why would I have a very why would you be anything else but I do get the feeling that like people want me to be like oh yeah he's like you know he's hard to read and he's know man he's like and he's you know I heard once like in preparation for punisher he like hike to like climb the the Brooklyn Bridge can also be true those can also be true but like I always like I don't want to like ruin the thing he's got going on where people think he's like really like oh that's so funny tough and and soft like a baby man A little yeah I'm just nervous wanted to be good yeah little marshmallow you know what I mean yeah so I don't know there's a part of me that feels really honored that that that's what I think of when I think of you um cuz it's funny like we us to take pictures and you know you always like you know dude this is like make fun of johe no it's not I always love behind the curtain well honesty hey what youj what did he say honesty hon authenticity all keep going Destro was always so funny my last job you'll get to get out of your your box they'll stop typ casting you go something you're not you can actually get some sort of you know sympathetic I hope so man you know vulnerable men in there I hope so man um but there's something to that right that like I think it's impressive and I think it's interesting and I part of what I love about working with you is that there's that Duality it's exactly what I said about like my favorite sets which is like the ones where you can be like oh we're kind to each other we're polite with one another we love and respect each other but like once it's action that's yeah I mean I think that's the only way it can get it can get dangerous though like to try to create it when there's no trust and where it's not totally safe you can't get totally dangerous I I think then it's like for me and like I've said it so many times it's like the way this thing saved me is like my life was so wild it was so dangerous it was so out of control and then I found a way that I can like put all that into it and and especially I think like becoming a dad and and and and a husband it's just like to to to to just like love these people so much more than love myself and and and to to have like a reason to do it for I I do think there's you know there's something about the confidence that you bring and and the the sort of steadfast um belief in the work that I think might make you what happen Marshmallow Man dog you let's leave this part in and get rid um but you but again you can be both yeah you can you can you can you can be confident and vulnerable I think so I just don't know how to be vulnerable and confident I think you do Deb I really think you do I I'll get closer well that's also I do Wonder like because I'm unfamiliar with it maybe I just don't recognize it when that that was your real telling thing it's like your thing about like being you know it's like it does it's like we say these things it's like how I always have to it's funny like I I always have to like tell everyone especially like when I started acting like i' would always have to like kind of be like you know I used to get a lot of fights and you know I've been in trouble with law like I I would always like kind of like lead with that I think a big part of it was like I just wanted this I just want to make sure nobody me there because I wanted this to be safe and and I and it's like dude I haven't been that guy in decades like stop like let all that go and like you've got to like kind of like tell everybody The Narrative of yourself whether it's right or it's wrong and I think that they can be empowering I I also think they can be crippling as you know yeah what the thing you know so many people think of acting as like oh you must be a good liar or you must be the I'm like no no it's the absolute opposite for sure I'm a terrible liar I'm an excellent truth teller right you see everything in my cheeks and my eyes that's what makes me a good actor it's actually the opposite um and so sometimes all of that feeling all of that history all of that that's churning you know we think of actors as like oh they should be chameleons they should change every single time but I'm like no every other art form whether you're a painter or a director you're allowed to have a style you're allowed to say like here's me and what matters to me as an artist and I want to explore those themes in my work as actors we should be afforded the same the same exploration right that's not to say that you you're seeing through someone else's eyes or through character's eyes but that's for me what it is it's Deborah seeing through Karen's eyes experiencing the world through her perspective you know so it doesn't mean that I 100% change who I am to be Karen and it doesn't mean that Karen is 100% me but it's what do I as an artist see when I look at the world through her experiences um it means I get to bring who some of who I am that's why we do Romeo and Juliet MC Beth over and over and over and over again is because each individual actor brings themselves to that part and therefore brings out a different you know aspect of it and we we forget that because film and TV is so single one off y we're not interested in multiple interpretations of the same thing we assume there's a right and a wrong yep there just isn't you know like like the fear of motivator like we talked about that but there's also that thing like I I think this thing can take on a new life when it's like this is my sword like this is my sword to go like conquer the world I always like this thing um uh Judy Jen said that acting was the shy person's Revenge I always really like that quote because it does feel that way it's like I never felt like I could express myself for fear of being you know shut down but and when I act I just get to take revenge on all of you and just you you're you have to see Deborah for like an hour you know like you're gonna sit in the dark and listen to me talk you know um yeah that that's a little Revenge uh and and um just talk a little bit about uh theater and and and being on stage I I know that's like your uh yeah someday I'll get back to that on the regular so I'm a very selfish actor in the sense that my main concern is have I had an experience that I find artistic and motivating and fulfilling I'm not super concerned with whether the audience likes it or even that the story gets told in any particular way I'm you know I'm amenable to notes and things like that coming in but at the end of the day that's why I do this I do this because I love doing it not because I even like telling stories or you know I just enjoy acting yep and the crazy thing is that in film and TV you're just a sort of a you're Brick in the Wall right and I want my brick to be as beautiful and as strong and as interesting as it can be but at the end of the day someone else is building this wall someone's going to paint over it they're going to put music they're going to do a whole thing it's not really my work for sure at the end which is again why at the end of the day I've done my part of the work and I just kind of want to let it go hence no need to watch it no need to watch because I'm with you I've already done it and and I had a front row seat to my seam partner's work for sure right for sure um but with acting yours is the last hand there's just nothing that comes stage after you right on stage yeah uh every single performance is oneon-one with the audience with this character with my steam partners and that's so empowering and so exciting um and I like the chance that like of trying something new and it failing but knowing I get to do it again tomorrow and I don't know it there's there's kind of nothing quite like it mhm except maybe Dungeons and [Laughter] Dragons Dungeons and Dragons what about Dungeons and Dragons High man I love it so much right I think that might no what taking Dungeons and Dragons and smoking weed oh oh that might be you think you're original that what everybody does oh okay I don't know what do in like I don't it's like a game but like you imagine you're like in the game right yeah kind of I mean it's just just yeah it's just a collaborative story telling with some characters and you tell the story yeah I'm a dungeon master so generally I've written an arc and created a world and then players explore it and I make calls as to like how difficult it is to climb a wall or fight a monster or that kind of thing and so if you say this is a real difficult monster to fight then you've got to come up with a different way of fighting it yeah or you know either it'll I mean it can just be like how hard you hit it and how long the thing goes but it might be how you negotiate your way out of it if you can't actually kill a dragon but it's going to eat you how do you tell it not to um so there are other kind of checks that you can do Persuasions and deceptions and intimidations and all and then you decide whether you beat the dragon the person beat the dragon yeah there are stats there's a lot of math involved that can make that happen but like God damn you want to play D and D I mean I'll try I mean what do you think to do it literally right now sure all right so you what do you's see you've got a bow strapped to your back a sword and a dagger at your Hil right so you're walking through the woods it's dark it's at night almost no Moonlight is coming through you hear a crack off in the distance something large stepped on the branch what would you do first thing M how far away is the crack give me a perception check so then you roll dice and we'd see how perceptive you are let's say you roll a 13 okay and you're pretty perceptive so you have a plus three to that that's 16 so I know okay 16 that's pretty perceptive you think it's about 20 feet away okay it's about 20 feet away mhm I think I take out my my bow first okay so take a bow you're Reed you're aimed you're right at where where the spot's coming yeah okay slowly creeping towards you suddenly into view a little bit of ey shine in the darkness you see an owl bear this is a a 101 15 foot tall monster it looks like an owl but it has the body of a bear it opens its beak and squawks at you what do you do have I ever met an owl bear before like our owl Bears we could do in his history check so this is D and D you're playing D and D what you mean a history check so a history check would be like in your past in your history have you experienced so how do I check yeah let's Che roll a dice let's say you have a low history you roll a 13 but you have a minus three that's a 10 so no you've never met a owl bear in your life you have no idea whether it's threatening or not but it is squawking at you I'd be like yo are you my friend are you my foe fantastic you speak to it yeah I try give me an animal handling check so you'd roll another one so this is what we kind of see based on your character sheet that you've created you're going to be good and bad at different things who I create the sheet you could or I could or you could get a pre-made sheet why don't you just make your sheet that you're great at everything because you know if you're a wizard who's in school studying books to learn magic you're probably not spending that much time in the gym versus if you're you know a knight who goes out and slays Dragons you know maybe you're you're socially awkward and don't know how to talk to people so your within your interest to like not be great at everything you want flaws like one of my favorite characters my friend Tommy played Vos he was a prince and the idea was that he was very you know he'd been kind of pampered his whole life and everyone always laughed at all his jokes and said that he was wonderful and handsome but he's actually not that funny and he's not that handsome he just has been sheltered so when he got out in the world and started investigating he thinks that he's This Charming Suave individual but his stats his like literal Charisma stats are very low so he would fail constantly and part of his story throughout the campaign was him learning that he wasn't as Charming as he thought he was um so flaws are great flaws make good story but is the goal to win no there goal is to tell a great story tell a great story and there might be there might be arcs of like one big bad is like hurting innocent people and there are monsters to fight so you're you know you're motivated to be a hero and that's what I love about D and DS is practicing being hero it's practicing protecting the innocent and stopping the bad guy and standing up for your fellow players um it's the greatest game ever created and it's just collaborative storytelling you just sit at a table it's as close as you can get yet when you were seven on the Playard just like making up games and stories um and I love it uh and I will do it until I die yeah and it saved me through pandemic it saved me through strikes you know like I always had this thing to turn to for creativity and finances frankly how finances uh people pay me to run games for them and pay me to write campaigns and and do things like that yeah yeah it's like a whole side career now but it's cool and like I said it's that one weird space where we're all nerdy so I don't you you do it like free of there's no nerves or insecurity well there's nerves and insecurity but I I don't have to worry about not being cool whereas like every time I'm on a daredevil set I'm a little worried that I'm not cool I'm not cool enough for everybody um you know it's funny man I I and and again we were talking about this and joking about it earlier but it's like when you say like True Blood being cool and stuff like I I I I hear like I like I I I feel the exact I felt like I never could fit in because I I was always like this athlete and this boxer guy who was like trying to be an actor and like I always felt like you know not cool enough like I could never like really like speak that that that that that language and I remember when we were you know when walking dead like first happened you know True Blood was like I remember we were at like one of those awards that like one of those like you know like I don't know like Saturn Awards or something that I remember like you know Walking Dead hadn't come out yet but me and Sarah were there and we had to announce something and and they showed like the like the the like it was like the True Blood cast and like it was like close-ups of their face that we and like me and Sarah walked out and I don't remember who it was but like one of the main women on that cast and she was like like like like that like kind of like like zombie show you know I me I was like yeah that's our Hollywood is a weird space where either you were always cool or you or you were like your story where like I was a nerd or I was a sorry I was a jock who didn't really do this stuff but fell in love with it and then felt like an impostor because I didn't come from the weird artsy click MH or you're me who was always the weird artsy kid who then goes into Hollywood and everyone's cool and wants to party and I'm like oh I don't know how to do that you know so it's a it's a weird space where yeah I don't know I I I don't you know I at those industry parties I always end up in the kitchen doing dishes with the caters because I just yeah I've done that several times like one of the Netflix parties like at Ted Sis's house you went into the kitchen start doing dishes I did dishes in the kitchen because I was so nervous I didn't know who to talk to or how to be there so I went into use the bathroom or something like that and I I don't know I just was like oh let me get that I don't know I don't know my brain needed something to do yeah you know I think that's also why games and stuff help me because it's like an activity and I can get to know people better if it's not just talking if it's like oh we're playing a game and I'm learning who you are yeah so there's something about like oh I need to do something like helpful for the world right now instead of just standing at some fancy house pretending that I fancy and belong yeah I don't know those things are getting easier I mean like I avoid them cuz I just want to be with my kids about time but they're getting easier because I feel like I know people like I I get to see old friends you know what I mean I don't know I don't know very many people yeah that's another that's another downside of being introverted uh in this industry yeah I don't tend to hold on to those relationships very very well um that's tricky this art Forum this at all of it has was really very important to me for a very long time because of how I came into it and how much I put into it and how much I had to prove I deserve to do it and all of that and that the problem was is that anytime it went poorly that shattered me because it was the only thing I had going for like what is my identity what is my value and so when it went badly that fell as well and my husband really wanted to be a dad and I had never seen myself being a parent it was not part of my plan but we kept talking about it and it got to point where I was like oh if I don't do this with him I will be denying him like a core need a dream of his and I can't do that I sat down and I went you know what it would also be really healthy for me if I had something I cared about more than all this totally you know and I kind of knew in my gut that that's what kids do for sure for sure right um and you don't really know till you know till you know but I knew yeah you know and part of the problem was is that like the main narrative I had gotten about parenting especially as a mother was like martyrdom and you're never going to sleep again and you give up all your identity for your kid and like it was all this like terrible stuff and I was like why would you do that unless you were called to it and I've been so grateful to have been proven wrong it's just the best he's my favorite person in the world and I genuinely will choose him over pretty much anything else nowadays um and so yeah that like when I used to skip industry event or whatever because I was nervous or didn't want to go or you know that always felt like cheaping out cheapening out or like chickening out is what I mean yeah um but now I'm like oh no I just want to spend time with him for sure for sure nobody can question that all the want them to be able to do you got to try to do it yourself and all all the don't want them doing like try to cut those things out that that that you know of like letting the base parts of yourself win like making make making the better decision like just be being that yeah well you know like I I was a self-deprecating person I was the kind of person that would walk around and say cruel things about myself because there's that little bit of armor that's like if I say it first um but I you know consciously stopped doing that in front of him and really altogether good um because it's I don't I don't want him picking up that habit right I want him to think he's I want him to be confident and to feel proud of who he is in his identity um so yeah I you know talk about want be the best version of yourself around someone yeah but it's also it's I don't know It's oddly for me it's been easy it's been so easy to be to be that with him he just he brings out the best in me yeah and I didn't think so like I I because parenting was not like on my list of or my vision for myself I really thought it was going to be harder and you know me I prepare too much I've read all the books I do all the things you're supposed to do but I've been genuinely surprised by how natural I feel in the role um and how much I crave it and like just want to like we spent all day at the zoo yesterday yeah the best yeah yeah nothing nothing nothing better I mean I just want to go back to theater I just want to do more plays I don't have like a type of character or one particular role or anything that's particularly calls to me I just want to do more plays and I I I'm not even I'm not even all that well read you know like I know a lot of people who read all of the plays and all of the screenplays and all this I just I don't know I'm interested in acting more than literature I was a math and science geek as a kid right that's where I come from is the problem solving side of it you know I want to go like oh this is this text is a not a problem but it's it's a blueprint that I get to then you know extrapolate so just really that's it more theater I used to sing a lot and I don't do that anymore that would be a dream come true to like do a s time piece but I had an opportunity to audition for one this last year and I chickened out I didn't do it you did you chickened out why did you chicken out because I don't think I'm a strong enough singer right now I I it was kind of thing where I was like I could submit this and be really embarrassed by the quality of work that I submit and therefore never get the opportunity to do it again or I could try to recommit myself to getting this skill back in shape and then go for it but I talked myself out of it yeah you talked yourself out of that moment one thing like that that's some bull there you could have you could have done laid down the tape you ever I mean literally you could have done nothing and that wouldn't have prohibited you from doing it like like it would have done nothing it's a real worry it's a real worry for some reason yeah um yeah but that's something I would like to get if I have if if at some point the time and the energy comes back I'd like to make that a priority and start feeling confident in that skill again yeah um because I do love s time and I I do you know I used to love I used to love singing and dancing and and having that be a part of my my world but then in film and TV you don't do it very much so it kind of kind of went to the Wayside yeah yeah I thinkc because that early those early years where I wasn't talking and wasn't feeling accepted H and the plays were the only place where I did feel that way where I I felt like oh this is something I do well and something that people like me for when I do it um and that was very healing and I think that that uh I latched on to that pretty hard I don't know I mean I guess you could call it trauma I I shy away from words like that um maybe because I I feel a need to downplay it and I guess in a world where like really significant traumas happen there's a part of me that like is resistant to labeling this the same way um it's deeply affecting and and identifying for me um so those those are the words I generally like to use um yeah is that is that is that dismissive I don't know yeah I don't my no no no no I mean like I don't know it's like uh I mean even on this podcast you have people on here who can talk about genuine life-threatening terrifying things you know and I don't know I I struggle to place my experiences in the same category I don't know I mean I I I think like our and you know we're talking about something happened to you at like such a like like a ridiculously extraordinarily vulnerable age it's like the age that that you know like my kids are in now and it's something that just like the goal just like any anything else is like to talk to the people who are perpetrating the people who are being victimized by it and to try to see you you know there's not only a way out but there's a way to kind of like make it yeah you know potentially work work work for you well if any and if anything I you know I do kind of go like oh this is actually a more relatable Universal experience we have all been on one side if not both of this of this experience I am not unique in that regard and and so um and we're like we're in an age right now we like saying something bad about somebody or like writing something bad about somebody is so commonplace and it's like we can't just it's like you can't have a conversation with about any topic or any person without being completely binary that's so yeah that's like and and and I think that just in the same way it's like you it makes you a sheep like you're just going along and it's like like have thoughts and like I think to like go into situations kind of with an open heart and an open mind and be like oh who are you like what are you about and to be curious I don't know ra ra rather than to to judge and close down make it a competition I think I think so I think so well I'm I'm I'm really happy to see you and I'm very grateful that you did hey we actually know each other more now a little bit we'll have lunch it's yeah yeah yeah smoke some weed lunch is next hi High lunch is [Music]