Dipinder Goyal's Entrepreneurial Insights

I have a weird question to ask you. Yes? Do you write the notifications of Zomato yourself? Yes. Has Swiggy been a real problem? Swiggy has forever been a problem for us. People don't know that Zomato had almost gone broke multiple times. And every time he's gone out there and brought money back. Or made it unbroke. I actually want to know about those phases. We have money left for 4 months. We don't have money. What will you do? You will bring money. You won't bring money. Then solve it. If you don't want to solve it, then go out. Someone else will solve it. It's been a difficult journey. It's been a fun journey. Difficult is fun. Pain is pleasure. BDSM of business. How do you earn money from one delivery? So... What have you learnt about India? Especially when it comes to workforce. People who need us, they don't look for a job. Do you believe in coaching? Coaching or approaching? What are you running away from? Slavery? Expand? Friends, we do very few business-oriented conversations on TRS because honestly, you don't see so many conversations on entrepreneurship but today's guest is the legend of Indian entrepreneurship space, Zomato founder Dipinder Goyal. We have talked about entrepreneurship in a very relaxed way, about the psychological side of business, about failure, about the struggling phase. If you want to open a lot of big businesses in life, if you want to do a lot of things, from a business oriented perspective from a startup oriented perspective so please watch this podcast till the end I know that the entire startup community will watch this podcast but I want that the students sitting in the interiors of India should also watch this podcast till the end it's a very good conversation with Dipinder Goyal learn about Zomato learn about Dipinder Bhai's mindset and learn about India's future on this episode of TRS Intro Welcome Dipinder and Goyal to TRS How are you sir? All well, very nice Should I call you sir or bro? Call me whatever you want Okay, you have a lot of bro energy Bro energy? Okay But that's because I don't work for you. I have a weird question to ask. Do you write the notifications of Zomato? I write something. Seriously? Seriously? Something. Cool. Was this your idea that there should be such trippy notifications? No, it was made by itself. There was no such concept. We had this idea that we will make something like this. Okay. And it was made organically. We tried something. It worked. Okay. We did something else. That also worked. then people say your brand is like this so we kept doing that. There were some phases where you thought you want to give up. And where you felt very low? I felt very low. When did you feel the lowest? A lot of times. I mean, I feel like quitting every 2-3 weeks. Even now? Even now. Okay. So, I do research before every podcast. I asked a lot of people in the business community what I should ask you. So, a lot of people said that in the business community there is different chatter than what the public knows. There's respect, a lot of respect for what you've done. But people don't know that Zomato had almost gone broke multiple times. And every time he's gone out there and brought money back or made it unbroke. I want to know about those phases. What was happening as a human being? What happened in the company? And what did you solve as a human being? And what did you solve in the company? Let's say we have 4 months left. Yes. Okay. And we round off. We have 10 million dollars left. 4 months left. Our burn rate was quite high at that time. Okay. So we will see that next month, when it will end, I should have 4 months left in the next month. Correct? So then we used to reduce the burn rate that much. Now in the next month, in this month, we had 2.5 million expenses. 7.5 million left. So next month, the burn rate of the first month should be less than 2. By doing this, we always used to keep 4 months'worth of money in the bank. So if you have 4 months'worth of money, then you have an infinite lifespan. What is a day in your life? A work day in your life now? Wake up in the morning, go to the gym, get to the office, back to back meetings for 8-9 hours. Tell us about 8-9 hours. What do you do? I mean, how do you handle such a big company? I don't, yeah. Like, the team is so bloody good nowadays. How do you handle that team? My job is to put the right people at the right places, more or less. Okay. So if the team is good and people are solving the right problems, then it's done. At every stage, as the company upgrades, you have to do a new set of top-level hires or do the same guys get promoted or is it a mix? It's better to grow from within. Means, continue your Q with the old people. Correct. Because, look, if you bring a new external hire, and this, Zomato is slightly like 15 years old. we have enough people who are 5-6 years old okay so the context changes so if we are a 2 year old company then we have to bring people from outside you don't have any choice but now if I have to bring someone from outside then So, let's say we hire someone. Either I have to be really, really sure that this person is very solid. Okay. And, unique spot, unique skill. It will work. But if I have, let's say, a head of marketing type position. So, let's hire from outside. Correct? It will take 6 months to bring someone. First you will interview for 3 months, then the notice period will be served, then it will come in 6 months, then it will be induction in 3 months. After that, in a year you will know whether this person is working or not. 2 years last. Correct. It's better if I take someone from the inside and spend three months with him, grow him and put him in that role. Easier. He knows the business. He or she. So that works. Okay. But if you hire a high-level person, a top-level person, do you also have fuck-ups at that level? Absolutely. Then how do you deal? Same mentality as dealing with fuck-ups from 2008. Yeah. Okay. It's been a difficult journey. Fun is not fun. Muskil is fun. Yeah. Pain is pleasure. Yes. BDSM of business. Business BDSM. It's like the gym man. Okay. Pain is fun. I respect you for multiple things, but I think the thing I respect the most is product skills, which manifest as the growth of a business. I know you're a product person. Nitin Kamat came on the show 2-3 years ago. And he said that, maybe the most valued thing in the startup ecosystem is the product people. Because product people think in the domain of creativity. They build out The present based on what they think the future should be. And honestly, can I take the name of a rival? Doesn't matter. I think the common people notice this about Zomato versus Swiggy. People feel that Zomato is very innovative. And I know you don't consider competition. competition, I completely agree with that mentality. There is no such thing as competition as long as you are creating your own journey. Which is what I love about you. And I think all the Gen Z's, my team members, they all notice the innovation on the Zomato app. Do you agree? Absolutely. I would like to tell you a little bit of a brutal truth. I personally feel reading is dying out as a habit in the world. Because of short content, because of podcasts too. Honestly, just culture is changing in the world. When you say this to an author, the authors get very, what are you saying? But it's true. Like I represent the internet, I understand what the youth is thinking. I know you have written a book about Zomato's culture. Many listeners will never read that book. Absolutely. So tell us, crunch down that book in this answer. I want to ask you that the book you have written on culture, please break it down a little. Yeah, it's actually quite simple. So, we don't have a process-led organization. It's a culture-led organization. And right people, if culture is right, then the organization works. Otherwise, it doesn't work. What does culture mean? Culture is how people behave. Okay. respond to stimuli, respond to pressure, correct? How they think about their own growth, how do they think about quality of work, all this is culture, correct? And the culture book is more about, employees ke liye handbook thi hai. So I wrote this, that if a new person comes in induction, then give him, that he should read, read 4 times, read 6 times. And if he works in a company, then he will read, hopefully. Because we are paying that person to read this book. Correct. You are giving them a roadmap of growth. Self-growth. Okay. Correct. In a way. So how to think, how to behave. Correct. And that is the roadmap. Maybe I'll read it. Then Chicky saw this on my desk and said, let's publish this, this is a very good thing. I said, do it. Awesome. You guys scaled it up a lot. Is this the core reason behind Zomato's culture? This is, I think this book is about 80% of the core principles. I've been working on this for a decade, by the way, the book. Okay. So finally I was able to isolate that, okay, these are some things, there must be some more. It will be available in version 2. Okay. Or is it your secret sauce? No, it's not a secret sauce. How can it be a secret sauce? There are 10,000 people in a company. Okay. Okay. Fair. But, but, has the scale been changed because of the culture, according to you? Or are there different factors? I think only culture. Finally culture. After a certain point at least. No, I think from the start. From the start. Okay. Do you want to elaborate a little bit more on culture? Specifically, what does self-growth mean for a person in Zomato? I mean, I believe that Mindset is everything. Correct? And doesn't matter your experience 5 years, 10 years, 15 years it doesn't matter. Problem, unique if any is coming in front of you so if you are fresh out of college you can solve the problem as well. as somebody who has been doing the same thing for 20 years. Probably better than the one who has been doing it for 20 years. Because you don't have the baggage. Like, correct? So, it's about how to keep on unlearning all of your brain or like, how do you bring freshness and determination nation to whatever you're trying to solve. So that's about it. Okay. Where do you hire usually in India? Do you hire from metro or do you randomly hire? But you get a bird's eye view of India. What have you learned about India, present and future? Especially when it comes to workforce. When it comes to workforce, so the kind of workforce that we hire is, is the kind of workforce that we hire. Very different. So we don't hire people who are looking for a job. Ideally. Because the people we need don't look for a job. Ooh. poach karto? Aap poaching me believe karto? Poaching ya approaching. Ha ha ha ha. Wow. Okay. Aapki harami panti mujhe bohot achi lagte ha. But go on. To approaching to it's hum achhe lukh. people and then we work on them at least the mid to senior level. The hiring process is very long. Okay. It's like courting, dating, like for six months, 12 months, and then we're able to get people. So it's a difficult job. Okay. You hire Gen Z's? Absolutely. Have you learned anything about Gen Z's? Is it very different than working with older people? Yeah, Gen Z's are way smarter than what we were when we were that age. And? I think potentially, Gen Z's are much smarter than what we were when we were is huge but less patience than what we used to have at that age and patience is a virtue which is required at work you know the people who are as ambitious as you are I often ask this question which is a rude question but I am not asking it rudely so sorry but I will still ask the question is what are you running away from what am I running away from slavery you Expand? That's it. That's it? Yeah. You want freedom? You want freedom. The reason why you do this is freedom. Okay. Correct? Like various forms of it. And absolute freedom is never available. Whatever you do. Okay. No chance. Okay. In this world. absolute freedom is not there. But if you get some extra freedom, it's nice. Okay. My research team has told me that you should ask questions related to ONDC. Will you tell me? ONDC is basically in a way, the government's Zomato. That's the easiest way to explain it. So till now, you were doing SmackDown vs Raw with Swiggy, now ECW has come. So, have you watched WWE? I watched it when I was a kid. F**k you got the reference. But anyway, ECW has come. So, are you tensed? No? How will you deal with it? Is ONDC even a problem for you actually? I don't know. It's too early to say. Too early to say is also a risky thing to say. Because then you can be lazy about it and stop watching it. So I don't know. Okay. But you... I don't want to call it competition because it's not exactly competition yet. But you must be studying them. It keeps going. Okay. But you already have strategies. I don't know. I don't think so. When that problem becomes real, then with a week's timeline, with ambitious goals, gun to your head, you solve it. This is the mentality. If a real problem is created, then solve it. Swiggy was a real problem. Swiggy has forever been a real... Problem for us. This is WWE versus WCW. You're Vince McMahon. I mean, Swiggy had once raised a billion dollars. We had almost nothing in our bank at that time. But from there, you... How did you move forward? We sold our UAE business. We got 170 million dollars from there. Then, we kept fighting slowly. We kept working hard. And again, same approach. We have this much money. We have to reach here. We have this much time. Gun to your head. Solve it. Okay. So, it's more important to have that base level blueprint. This should be the protocol. Gun to the head. I think determination mindset. That you have to do it. Now this is to be solved. There is nothing else. Either you can start blaming. That if I have this, then only I will be able to solve it. But there is no money. What will you do? Right? Can you do something? You will bring money, you will not bring. So then solve it. If you don't want to solve it, then go out. Someone else will solve it. Meet Swiggy's founder sometime. Many times. Okay. What is it? Friendship. Bros. Brotherhood. Play cricket match. Shaheen Afridi vs Virat Kohli We engage in the future So it's a nice friendly relationship We don't talk current business It's not legal to talk current business as well It's not legal to talk Publicly listen. No, I mean legally. If I know his strategy, then competition should be fair. So competition, we don't tease him. I mean, we talk about the future. How will the drones run in 5 minutes? Okay. But you take motivation from each other. On some level. I don't know about that. But I definitely take inspiration from him. Okay. Do you ever use Swiggy yourself? never zero okay this was a trick question but anyway means I have used experimental many times but real real real use never used okay means sometimes you have to use the app to learn but real use never used okay to compare same order same order I have done it many times I will say one thing openly I use Zomato to order food but I use Swiggy to order groceries hmm a lot. That's my use case. I have to order groceries, I will open Swiggy automatically. I use Swiggy because Swiggy was already installed on my phone. That was my mentality as a user. You have to study the constant user mentality, I'm sure. When you open Zomato's app, what do you think as the founder? So, I, as a product, like, person, watch my emotions in a way. So, if I seamlessly translate calmly I am able to do my work then it is a very good thing without having to think if the app irritates me then I get irritated so that's when I know that this is not right you call what are you reading sorry product feedback group we made a slack channel we put it on that how do you talk just this should be this I think you shout at someone Rarely. No? Rarely. Rarely, I would like to know when. I think when you are giving feedback to someone and their mind is not working when people don't listen. I think I have to sometimes raise my volume so that I can get my message across. Has that been a good strategy? Works half the times. And when it doesn't work, what happens? Nothing. The person has so much noise in their brains, like in their heads. They don't even hear that shouting. A little bit of a random, intrusive question. Okay. Fastest ever girl. grown Instagram account, fastest ever grown social media account. Have you heard? I have heard. That recently, he has got a lot of fast growth, where he basically vlogs every day and shows his fitness journey every day. Ex-Zomato rider. Yes, yes, yes. Ex-Zomato rider. I have actually seen his Instagram. Okay. He should be one of your brand ambassadors according to me. I think so. I am giving you a very big input here. I think so. We have more than 500 podcasts Dr. Jayashankar Priyanka Chopra, Ashish Chanchalani is a YouTuber. They were all one third of the speed of growth of views compared to Ankit Bhaiyaanpuri. Wow! That much hype. Nice. So, all the best. Thank you. But coming back to Zomato Delivery Partners. Have you ever thought that how much lives will be impacted? I want to know more about Zomato Delivery Partners. When you were creating this whole plan, I remember when Zomato was just a review app, then I read your interview because Actually, Beer Biceps, the word, started off as a Zomato review page. Very nice. In college. So, even I'm somewhere, seriously, I'm not lying. I wanted a creative name. I used to like be a... It's a very nice name. Thank you, bro. Thank you, bro. But, basically, I remember you giving this interview where you said, at some point, we will turn into a delivery app. How long do you think? That's one question. Second is? I'm sure that when you thought that you will become a delivery app, then only you thought about delivery partners. I never thought about delivery partners. Actually, Swiggy did it first. And customer love for Swiggy was very high compared to our service. So, it was almost a forced hand for us to do this. So yeah, okay delivery app isliye banani thi ye future mein kyunki 2005 mein a out of college banai thi ek. To my first startup was a food ordering app. Really? Yeah. Okay. To 2005 mein. Actually that was my third startup but like my first serious startup was a food ordering app. So that didn't work. So the reviews, menus, scanned menus and reviews, that was the trimmed down version of that startup. And then you went back to it. Had to. Because the whole goal was whenever the market is ready for it, we'll do that thing. From the beginning? goal from 2008. It was a dream. And not too serious about these things. Like, we'll do it, we'll see. Okay. But if it's done, it's okay. If it's done, it's a good thing. And if it's successfully done, it's even better. Okay. And how do you feel now? Detached. That it's done. Even now, the bigger it gets, it actually gets even harder. When the stories of Zomato delivery partners in the news and come out. Someone has had a bad interaction with a customer. Someone becomes a big Instagrammer. Zomato is getting marketing from there. I don't think it like that. Why? People say all marketing is good marketing. I don't believe that. I think good marketing is good marketing and bad marketing is bad marketing. People say all publicity is good publicity. I don't believe that. Really? Tell me. I think karma is karma. So if you do bad things and take marketing, it will catch up. So marketing should leave a good taste in people's mouth. You should associate it with positive emotion. Negative emotion marketing is not marketing. Okay. What is Zomato's marketing strategy in its core? Because I know that people from agencies tell you that it's all over the place. It's a mess, anything is happening. But still people know about the brand. So your core mentality will be right. What is your thought process? Especially your marketing branding team. Do you have only one team? Yes, I have a small team. Small team? Yes. What do you tell them? They say it themselves. I don't say anything. So, I think the principle they have narrowed down to is that we have to make somebody smile. Whenever we have a... marketing message, notification, Insta post, whatever you see, there should be a positive energy. Yes. Smile on the people's faces. So they try to do that. That's it. That's it. First principles thinking. Yes. So you try to make people smile. As many people as possible as well. Because you can also narrow down. You can narrow down and send a non-relevant notification. So we try to achieve generic smiles. Okay. But you hire for that team? To bring in humor? Yes, it keeps going. Okay. There you hire Gen Z's, I'm assuming. Correct. Correct? Has Zomato's marketing changed over the years? I think distribution channels have changed. But the... the tonality, what we've been trying to achieve. We try to achieve consistency in that. Distribution channels, means first Facebook, then Insta, Twitter. Okay. Now what? What's hot now? Now what's hot is Insta and push notifications. Our push notification distribution is quite high. And it goes viral a lot. And that's a thought out process. It's a strategy. It's not just that it's gone. It's gone. If you have a problem, then stick to it. The delivery partners of Zomato, I'm telling you, I'm listening to a lot of podcasts. What would you like to say to them? There's a lot of range in Zomato delivery partners. So range of quality of work, of quality of people. So, I mean, largely I would say thank you and continue doing the good work. Okay, drive safe. And take care of your health. Or exercise. Don't break your backs. It's a hard job. So please take care. Please take care of yourself. Yeah. Okay. And those top level delivery partners. what you want to say this is what I would say same thing thank you take care of yourself okay alright and like bottom people I will tell there is a lot of fraud at the bottom as well don't do it relax chill do good work eventually make more money if you means try to make money Sir, why are you ordering from Zomato? Tell us directly. I mean, we'll pick up the food and run away from the customer. Really? The customer will say, Sir, your online payment is not done. He'll come back to you. Give me cash. Some random things. So... Really? It happens all over the country? The bottom 1% is less. It happens. They, I don't... In Mumbai, it's less, I feel. Personally. We don't let it happen. So what happens if it happens? The rider gets terminated. So if I tweet on Twitter or post anything on Instagram, there are a lot of answers below. Sir, please reactivate my ID. deactivate it. Those are all the riders caught in fraud. 98% are accurate. 2% we are also at fault by putting people in a box where they shouldn't be. But 98% people... Did you anticipate that there would be such problems in food delivery? I mean, it was happening from day one. It was happening from day one. So you knew that this is going to happen. This happens. It happens in India mostly. Yes. In which cities? In all. In all? In Mumbai, Delhi? Yes. In Mumbai, Bangalore? In all. Okay. What is their mentality? To make money or to eat? Or to have fun? I think that no one will know. This is an app. So generally new riders do it. So many new riders come. Means in a month, 20-30 thousand new people join. So, a small percentage of them think that this is an app, what will they know if I do this? But eventually, we get to know that. Okay. A very, sorry for the language, a little sh**ty question. Okay? But, exactly how does Zomato earn money from one delivery? So... Customer charges are some. And restaurant also gets commission because order is generated for restaurant. Yes. And so marketing fee will be there in a way. And we have come to give money to rider. Correct. So this some money is coming, some money is going. Okay. The whole goal is that the money that is coming should be more than the money that is going. Okay. If a customer has spent 100 rupees, 100 rupees spent on Zomato. On food or on delivery charges. Okay. Let's say 200 rupees total spend of customer. We don't make money on orders of 200 rupees. Okay. 1000? 1000 is decent. How much? 1000 is... Actually... Let's say 300. The average is 300. The average is around 300-400 depending on the city. So let's assume the average is 400. If the average order value is 400, then our commission will be blended at around 80. Okay. There is a 20% commission, less than 20, 17-18 types, within that range. So, let's assume it's around 80 rupees. And, customer delivery charges, 20-25 rupees. Correct. So, 100 rupees is the revenue. Nothing else. And cost, delivery cost, 60, 50, 70, depending on the city. Correct. And distance. If the distance is more, then the cost is more. If the distance is less, then the cost is less. Then customer support charges. If you chat, your agent, his cost. Okay. Payment, payment gateway fee. If you don't like the food, then you have to refund. Okay. How do you give such big discounts sometimes? Discounts are very less. But they used to be there before? They used to be less before also. Okay. It seems more. Okay. 50% off up to 80. It's not 50% off. It's 80 rupees off. Hmm. It's an order of 400 rupees. It's 20% off, right? Yes. Nice. I want to change it but... I don't call this discounting honest. Discounting should be honest. If you are telling anything to the customer, it should be honest. It should be 80 rupees off. It should not be 50% off up to 80. But if this keeps on competing, I won't be able to make this change. Because you are saying this on the internet, a lot of people's brand trust is increasing in Zomato. Because the founder is coming and saying things so openly. Are you aware of that? I don't know. Okay. You are very unprocessed. I mean, you just say it. So, I like it. And this is what the audience also likes. I have been like this since childhood. Okay. I would like to talk a little more about orders. So, on a national scale, you are basically roughly making 80 to 100 rupees off an order. That's revenue. Then from that, the rider... All the cost is gone. So, 5-10 rupees are made with difficulty. Yes, profits. Yes. But 5-10 rupees nationwide. I mean, where do you make 5-10 rupees? After that, the fixed cost comes. All the team, all the tech, server cost, this, that, all the drama. 1 rupee. or 2 rupees is difficult to make. Wow. But at scale, from that 1-2 rupees core profit, how did you become profitable? If 1-2 rupees start becoming profitable, then I'll become profitable. Really? Because the scale is so big. Orders are so many. Earlier, our cost was more than revenue. As soon as the balance tip, it became profitable. Okay. This is the long term VC money game. Like taking VC money. I don't know about VC money. Look, businesses like ours have fixed costs. Which is quite heavy. Fixed cost is... the cost of engineering team, product managers, ops teams, blah, blah, blah. Now, the cost of fixed team will be the same whether my business is of 1 third size or 10x size. It will remain the same. Okay. So, when I look at the cost per order of this team, when my orders increase, the cost per order of this team will fall. And this is a heavy cost. It's not easy. So, if I scale 10x, then my cost per order will be less. So, if I do something, and move revenue will be the same and my other sub-costs will be the same and I scale my profitability will increase which is why we are expanding into more countries we are not expanding into more countries we are an India only business but you have purchased businesses But we did it earlier, everything was closed in COVID. Oh, okay. How did that feel? Bad? Bad. How do you deal with it? How much money have you spent on them? That's the mental health. It's done now, right? Can't look back. Some cost. Okay. Coming back to India. Coming back to India. Just by being a YouTuber, I'm making content. And my small site. silo of the audience. It's a big silo, but it's not so big. It's maybe 20-25 million in a good scenario as compared to billions of Indians. But still, I feel that I have got one sample size, we get data, so I can see the future through that data. Okay. Do you feel the same way about Zomato, because you are serving so many people in India, all over India. Have you got any information about cities? Have you got any information about cities? Yeah, I think people are making more money. India is developing super fast. So, I am excited about India. Okay. Optimistic. Okay. Quite a lot. Okay. And to the point I don't even want to go outside of India. and X to expand this business. I was like, there is so much in India for the next decade. If it's a 100% saturation point, how far have you reached? I think India has reached 10%. India... has reached 10. As in potential wise. I think economic superpower India will become in the next 10-20 years. China-US scale. So I can feel it. Spending power will increase. Spending power will increase. People will have good food to order. Food is just one of the things. Blinkit is there for example. So Hyperpure is there. So multiple things. You have to just focus on India and scale. India and focus on Indians. I think that's our goal for now. Okay. So I'm assuming that you targeted the metro stations in phase 1, Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, etc. Right now, 900 cities. Okay. I would like to know about 900 cities. Which are the ranges of 800 to 900. Where, where, can you name some cities? I don't know. The smallest towns. Mooksar is also one of them, the hometown I'm from. So, Okay. It's the 956 city by population, if I'm not wrong. People spend there too? Absolutely. And what have you found out about those cities? I think Zomato's use case is a little unique because there is not much to spend. How will you go to see a movie? There are no shopping malls. So if you have money, you need something new in your life. So if you want to break the routine, then Zomato is a very good option. Now, at this point, September 2023, what is the challenge of Zomato? I think growth and profit, that's external. And internally, we focus on team quality. And I think that's my big area of work now. I do HR a lot these days. Because the scale at which you are working, you need to care about culture much more than... I mean, as I said, right people at the right places. If they are there and they are working on the right problems, then we are sorted. I have to make sure that we have the right people and they are being trained well and they are being coached well. So, that's about it. Is it easier than your previous business phases that you are focusing on HR? I think, this is a phase in life where I am able to do this. So, I don't know whether this phase will last. Tell us about your 3-4 big mistakes in short. Not specifics, just generally learnings from those mistakes. For young entrepreneurs? I think one big thing I have, I don't know if it's 3 or 4, in 2015, 2013, 2014, we did a lot of international expansion. At that time, I was like, India is small. There is no market size in India. We go international. Should have focused on India. Stayed in India. Should have been chill. Power focus? Huh? Is learning power focus here or is it learning to focus on India? You should focus on India. And I think even right now, there are a lot of startups who come and say, I'm going international. My advice is, just stay in India, chill. Why? Because, every market is different, first of all. Every country, the regulations, the people that you're going to work with, the culture will change. The culture you... If you work in India, that culture is Middle East, Europe, and you won't be the same in the US. Correct? So then it becomes harder to run an organization if you go to multiple countries. Compliance, legal bills, regulations, it's just complex. And people say that India's market size is not big. That's why I am going out. I say that it is not today. After 10 years, it will be too much. And like me, we have closed all the international markets. You will also do it. So because you will say that 90% of India is mine. of the business is made I am for 10% business size why am I spending 50% time it doesn't work correct so we shut down international when India was hitting 93% of our revenue but effort was so much that means Australia's country manager means we didn't have time to talk on the phone with him why should we do it you are 1% up So, it was actually prudent to shut it down. Okay. But what was your mentality before the expansion? Growth. Growth. Aggression. Scale. You wanted to hit the ball. Yes. There should be some ball to hit. Okay. If today you were 22 years old and you know in your heart that you want to enter in startups, again, Zomato style, something like that, it's a very hypothetical question. But if you were a young entrepreneur today, what kind of business would you do in India? I don't know, man. I mean, it doesn't matter if I'm 22 or whatever, but if I had such a brilliant crack of an idea, I would still be chasing it in my mind. Okay. Uh, if someone took everything from you today and left you at bare minimum, then what do you do? Start again. Start Zomato again? No, start something new again. What something new? I don't know. You take time off to learn? Yeah. How would you learn? Wander. Travel? No, wander. Mentally. Do you do mental wandering now? How? Read. Reading is my thing. What do you read? Random books. Okay, really? Yeah. About? Chemistry, physics, biotech, I do everything. Why, just like that? Yeah. To exercise your brain? Yeah. Which is the most boring book you've read? I don't know. I don't do anything like that. Which was the most impactful book? Which is the most impactful book I've read? I should have the answer to this, but I don't have it. Okay. What's the book you gift the most? Nowadays, I do culture. Apart from your book? Art of thinking clearly is... my most gifted book outside of that. First principles thinking based. I'm assuming. Human biases. How to read your own mind. Tell us a little. I mean, art of thinking. It's very human. Humans have a lot of biases. We are not rational. We take a lot of emotional, stupid calls. And there are a lot of heuristics in it. I think 70, 80, 100 will be there. So if you can internalize them, you take better calls, decisions. Why do you read books on chemistry? Why do you read books on chemistry? I think everything is the same. First principle thinking, if I come down to it. So chemistry also... teaches you a lot of things. So physics also teaches you a lot of things. Which you can apply in Zomato? Can. Of course. Some point in time. I don't know how. Basically you are saying that learn something, don't know when it will be useful. At least you will become smart. Because when you need something, then you don't know what should be the solution for it. Or what should I learn to solve it. Life is not that easy. So the more information you download into your brain, you are able to use it sometime. Constant learning process is important. Bureautech. business career? I don't know. It happens. For you? I operate like that. Okay. Next time, I'll ask you about chemistry. Dipinder Goya, thank you. It was fun talking to you. Thank you, sir. Lots of love, lots of good wishes. Go to India. The next 10 years that are going to happen in India, a lot of money will reach you and Zomato delivery partners. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time. Thank you. So friends, this was today's episode. I really like business conversations. But we do very few business conversations. Because, honest to God, we don't get views on business conversations. So you tell me, from a business perspective, which other business legends would you like to see? Send us guest recommendations on TRS. And keep following TRS.

I have a weird question to ask you. Yes? Do you write the notifications of Zomato yourself? Yes.

Has Swiggy been a real problem? Swiggy has forever been a problem for us. People don't know that Zomato had almost gone broke multiple times.

And every time he's gone out there and brought money back. Or made it unbroke. I actually want to know about those phases. We have money left for 4 months. We don't have money.

What will you do? You will bring money. You won't bring money. Then solve it. If you don't want to solve it, then go out.

Someone else will solve it. It's been a difficult journey. It's been a fun journey. Difficult is fun.

Pain is pleasure. BDSM of business. How do you earn money from one delivery? So... What have you learnt about India?

Especially when it comes to workforce. People who need us, they don't look for a job. Do you believe in coaching?

Coaching or approaching? What are you running away from? Slavery? Expand?

Friends, we do very few business-oriented conversations on TRS because honestly, you don't see so many conversations on entrepreneurship but today's guest is the legend of Indian entrepreneurship space, Zomato founder Dipinder Goyal. We have talked about entrepreneurship in a very relaxed way, about the psychological side of business, about failure, about the struggling phase. If you want to open a lot of big businesses in life, if you want to do a lot of things, from a business oriented perspective from a startup oriented perspective so please watch this podcast till the end I know that the entire startup community will watch this podcast but I want that the students sitting in the interiors of India should also watch this podcast till the end it's a very good conversation with Dipinder Goyal learn about Zomato learn about Dipinder Bhai's mindset and learn about India's future on this episode of TRS Intro Welcome Dipinder and Goyal to TRS How are you sir? All well, very nice Should I call you sir or bro?

Call me whatever you want Okay, you have a lot of bro energy Bro energy? Okay But that's because I don't work for you. I have a weird question to ask.

Do you write the notifications of Zomato? I write something. Seriously?

Seriously? Something. Cool.

Was this your idea that there should be such trippy notifications? No, it was made by itself. There was no such concept.

We had this idea that we will make something like this. Okay. And it was made organically.

We tried something. It worked. Okay. We did something else.

That also worked. then people say your brand is like this so we kept doing that. There were some phases where you thought you want to give up. And where you felt very low? I felt very low.

When did you feel the lowest? A lot of times. I mean, I feel like quitting every 2-3 weeks. Even now?

Even now. Okay. So, I do research before every podcast. I asked a lot of people in the business community what I should ask you.

So, a lot of people said that in the business community there is different chatter than what the public knows. There's respect, a lot of respect for what you've done. But people don't know that Zomato had almost gone broke multiple times.

And every time he's gone out there and brought money back or made it unbroke. I want to know about those phases. What was happening as a human being?

What happened in the company? And what did you solve as a human being? And what did you solve in the company? Let's say we have 4 months left.

Yes. Okay. And we round off.

We have 10 million dollars left. 4 months left. Our burn rate was quite high at that time. Okay.

So we will see that next month, when it will end, I should have 4 months left in the next month. Correct? So then we used to reduce the burn rate that much. Now in the next month, in this month, we had 2.5 million expenses. 7.5 million left.

So next month, the burn rate of the first month should be less than 2. By doing this, we always used to keep 4 months'worth of money in the bank. So if you have 4 months'worth of money, then you have an infinite lifespan. What is a day in your life? A work day in your life now? Wake up in the morning, go to the gym, get to the office, back to back meetings for 8-9 hours.

Tell us about 8-9 hours. What do you do? I mean, how do you handle such a big company?

I don't, yeah. Like, the team is so bloody good nowadays. How do you handle that team?

My job is to put the right people at the right places, more or less. Okay. So if the team is good and people are solving the right problems, then it's done.

At every stage, as the company upgrades, you have to do a new set of top-level hires or do the same guys get promoted or is it a mix? It's better to grow from within. Means, continue your Q with the old people.

Correct. Because, look, if you bring a new external hire, and this, Zomato is slightly like 15 years old. we have enough people who are 5-6 years old okay so the context changes so if we are a 2 year old company then we have to bring people from outside you don't have any choice but now if I have to bring someone from outside then So, let's say we hire someone. Either I have to be really, really sure that this person is very solid.

Okay. And, unique spot, unique skill. It will work. But if I have, let's say, a head of marketing type position. So, let's hire from outside.

Correct? It will take 6 months to bring someone. First you will interview for 3 months, then the notice period will be served, then it will come in 6 months, then it will be induction in 3 months. After that, in a year you will know whether this person is working or not.

2 years last. Correct. It's better if I take someone from the inside and spend three months with him, grow him and put him in that role. Easier.

He knows the business. He or she. So that works. Okay.

But if you hire a high-level person, a top-level person, do you also have fuck-ups at that level? Absolutely. Then how do you deal?

Same mentality as dealing with fuck-ups from 2008. Yeah. Okay. It's been a difficult journey.

Fun is not fun. Muskil is fun. Yeah.

Pain is pleasure. Yes. BDSM of business.

Business BDSM. It's like the gym man. Okay. Pain is fun. I respect you for multiple things, but I think the thing I respect the most is product skills, which manifest as the growth of a business.

I know you're a product person. Nitin Kamat came on the show 2-3 years ago. And he said that, maybe the most valued thing in the startup ecosystem is the product people. Because product people think in the domain of creativity. They build out The present based on what they think the future should be.

And honestly, can I take the name of a rival? Doesn't matter. I think the common people notice this about Zomato versus Swiggy. People feel that Zomato is very innovative.

And I know you don't consider competition. competition, I completely agree with that mentality. There is no such thing as competition as long as you are creating your own journey. Which is what I love about you. And I think all the Gen Z's, my team members, they all notice the innovation on the Zomato app.

Do you agree? Absolutely. I would like to tell you a little bit of a brutal truth.

I personally feel reading is dying out as a habit in the world. Because of short content, because of podcasts too. Honestly, just culture is changing in the world.

When you say this to an author, the authors get very, what are you saying? But it's true. Like I represent the internet, I understand what the youth is thinking. I know you have written a book about Zomato's culture.

Many listeners will never read that book. Absolutely. So tell us, crunch down that book in this answer. I want to ask you that the book you have written on culture, please break it down a little.

Yeah, it's actually quite simple. So, we don't have a process-led organization. It's a culture-led organization.

And right people, if culture is right, then the organization works. Otherwise, it doesn't work. What does culture mean?

Culture is how people behave. Okay. respond to stimuli, respond to pressure, correct?

How they think about their own growth, how do they think about quality of work, all this is culture, correct? And the culture book is more about, employees ke liye handbook thi hai. So I wrote this, that if a new person comes in induction, then give him, that he should read, read 4 times, read 6 times. And if he works in a company, then he will read, hopefully.

Because we are paying that person to read this book. Correct. You are giving them a roadmap of growth. Self-growth. Okay.

Correct. In a way. So how to think, how to behave.

Correct. And that is the roadmap. Maybe I'll read it. Then Chicky saw this on my desk and said, let's publish this, this is a very good thing. I said, do it.

Awesome. You guys scaled it up a lot. Is this the core reason behind Zomato's culture?

This is, I think this book is about 80% of the core principles. I've been working on this for a decade, by the way, the book. Okay. So finally I was able to isolate that, okay, these are some things, there must be some more.

It will be available in version 2. Okay. Or is it your secret sauce? No, it's not a secret sauce. How can it be a secret sauce?

There are 10,000 people in a company. Okay. Okay. Fair.

But, but, has the scale been changed because of the culture, according to you? Or are there different factors? I think only culture.

Finally culture. After a certain point at least. No, I think from the start. From the start. Okay.

Do you want to elaborate a little bit more on culture? Specifically, what does self-growth mean for a person in Zomato? I mean, I believe that Mindset is everything.

Correct? And doesn't matter your experience 5 years, 10 years, 15 years it doesn't matter. Problem, unique if any is coming in front of you so if you are fresh out of college you can solve the problem as well.

as somebody who has been doing the same thing for 20 years. Probably better than the one who has been doing it for 20 years. Because you don't have the baggage.

Like, correct? So, it's about how to keep on unlearning all of your brain or like, how do you bring freshness and determination nation to whatever you're trying to solve. So that's about it.

Okay. Where do you hire usually in India? Do you hire from metro or do you randomly hire?

But you get a bird's eye view of India. What have you learned about India, present and future? Especially when it comes to workforce. When it comes to workforce, so the kind of workforce that we hire is, is the kind of workforce that we hire. Very different.

So we don't hire people who are looking for a job. Ideally. Because the people we need don't look for a job. Ooh.

poach karto? Aap poaching me believe karto? Poaching ya approaching. Ha ha ha ha. Wow.

Okay. Aapki harami panti mujhe bohot achi lagte ha. But go on. To approaching to it's hum achhe lukh. people and then we work on them at least the mid to senior level.

The hiring process is very long. Okay. It's like courting, dating, like for six months, 12 months, and then we're able to get people.

So it's a difficult job. Okay. You hire Gen Z's?

Absolutely. Have you learned anything about Gen Z's? Is it very different than working with older people?

Yeah, Gen Z's are way smarter than what we were when we were that age. And? I think potentially, Gen Z's are much smarter than what we were when we were is huge but less patience than what we used to have at that age and patience is a virtue which is required at work you know the people who are as ambitious as you are I often ask this question which is a rude question but I am not asking it rudely so sorry but I will still ask the question is what are you running away from what am I running away from slavery you Expand? That's it. That's it?

Yeah. You want freedom? You want freedom.

The reason why you do this is freedom. Okay. Correct?

Like various forms of it. And absolute freedom is never available. Whatever you do. Okay.

No chance. Okay. In this world.

absolute freedom is not there. But if you get some extra freedom, it's nice. Okay.

My research team has told me that you should ask questions related to ONDC. Will you tell me? ONDC is basically in a way, the government's Zomato. That's the easiest way to explain it.

So till now, you were doing SmackDown vs Raw with Swiggy, now ECW has come. So, have you watched WWE? I watched it when I was a kid.

F**k you got the reference. But anyway, ECW has come. So, are you tensed?

No? How will you deal with it? Is ONDC even a problem for you actually?

I don't know. It's too early to say. Too early to say is also a risky thing to say. Because then you can be lazy about it and stop watching it. So I don't know.

Okay. But you... I don't want to call it competition because it's not exactly competition yet. But you must be studying them. It keeps going.

Okay. But you already have strategies. I don't know. I don't think so.

When that problem becomes real, then with a week's timeline, with ambitious goals, gun to your head, you solve it. This is the mentality. If a real problem is created, then solve it.

Swiggy was a real problem. Swiggy has forever been a real... Problem for us. This is WWE versus WCW.

You're Vince McMahon. I mean, Swiggy had once raised a billion dollars. We had almost nothing in our bank at that time. But from there, you... How did you move forward?

We sold our UAE business. We got 170 million dollars from there. Then, we kept fighting slowly.

We kept working hard. And again, same approach. We have this much money. We have to reach here.

We have this much time. Gun to your head. Solve it.

Okay. So, it's more important to have that base level blueprint. This should be the protocol.

Gun to the head. I think determination mindset. That you have to do it.

Now this is to be solved. There is nothing else. Either you can start blaming. That if I have this, then only I will be able to solve it.

But there is no money. What will you do? Right? Can you do something? You will bring money, you will not bring.

So then solve it. If you don't want to solve it, then go out. Someone else will solve it.

Meet Swiggy's founder sometime. Many times. Okay.

What is it? Friendship. Bros.

Brotherhood. Play cricket match. Shaheen Afridi vs Virat Kohli We engage in the future So it's a nice friendly relationship We don't talk current business It's not legal to talk current business as well It's not legal to talk Publicly listen.

No, I mean legally. If I know his strategy, then competition should be fair. So competition, we don't tease him. I mean, we talk about the future. How will the drones run in 5 minutes?

Okay. But you take motivation from each other. On some level. I don't know about that. But I definitely take inspiration from him.

Okay. Do you ever use Swiggy yourself? never zero okay this was a trick question but anyway means I have used experimental many times but real real real use never used okay means sometimes you have to use the app to learn but real use never used okay to compare same order same order I have done it many times I will say one thing openly I use Zomato to order food but I use Swiggy to order groceries hmm a lot. That's my use case.

I have to order groceries, I will open Swiggy automatically. I use Swiggy because Swiggy was already installed on my phone. That was my mentality as a user. You have to study the constant user mentality, I'm sure. When you open Zomato's app, what do you think as the founder?

So, I, as a product, like, person, watch my emotions in a way. So, if I seamlessly translate calmly I am able to do my work then it is a very good thing without having to think if the app irritates me then I get irritated so that's when I know that this is not right you call what are you reading sorry product feedback group we made a slack channel we put it on that how do you talk just this should be this I think you shout at someone Rarely. No? Rarely.

Rarely, I would like to know when. I think when you are giving feedback to someone and their mind is not working when people don't listen. I think I have to sometimes raise my volume so that I can get my message across. Has that been a good strategy?

Works half the times. And when it doesn't work, what happens? Nothing.

The person has so much noise in their brains, like in their heads. They don't even hear that shouting. A little bit of a random, intrusive question.

Okay. Fastest ever girl. grown Instagram account, fastest ever grown social media account.

Have you heard? I have heard. That recently, he has got a lot of fast growth, where he basically vlogs every day and shows his fitness journey every day.

Ex-Zomato rider. Yes, yes, yes. Ex-Zomato rider.

I have actually seen his Instagram. Okay. He should be one of your brand ambassadors according to me. I think so.

I am giving you a very big input here. I think so. We have more than 500 podcasts Dr. Jayashankar Priyanka Chopra, Ashish Chanchalani is a YouTuber. They were all one third of the speed of growth of views compared to Ankit Bhaiyaanpuri.

Wow! That much hype. Nice. So, all the best.

Thank you. But coming back to Zomato Delivery Partners. Have you ever thought that how much lives will be impacted?

I want to know more about Zomato Delivery Partners. When you were creating this whole plan, I remember when Zomato was just a review app, then I read your interview because Actually, Beer Biceps, the word, started off as a Zomato review page. Very nice.

In college. So, even I'm somewhere, seriously, I'm not lying. I wanted a creative name.

I used to like be a... It's a very nice name. Thank you, bro. Thank you, bro. But, basically, I remember you giving this interview where you said, at some point, we will turn into a delivery app.

How long do you think? That's one question. Second is?

I'm sure that when you thought that you will become a delivery app, then only you thought about delivery partners. I never thought about delivery partners. Actually, Swiggy did it first.

And customer love for Swiggy was very high compared to our service. So, it was almost a forced hand for us to do this. So yeah, okay delivery app isliye banani thi ye future mein kyunki 2005 mein a out of college banai thi ek. To my first startup was a food ordering app.

Really? Yeah. Okay.

To 2005 mein. Actually that was my third startup but like my first serious startup was a food ordering app. So that didn't work. So the reviews, menus, scanned menus and reviews, that was the trimmed down version of that startup.

And then you went back to it. Had to. Because the whole goal was whenever the market is ready for it, we'll do that thing. From the beginning? goal from 2008. It was a dream.

And not too serious about these things. Like, we'll do it, we'll see. Okay. But if it's done, it's okay. If it's done, it's a good thing.

And if it's successfully done, it's even better. Okay. And how do you feel now? Detached.

That it's done. Even now, the bigger it gets, it actually gets even harder. When the stories of Zomato delivery partners in the news and come out.

Someone has had a bad interaction with a customer. Someone becomes a big Instagrammer. Zomato is getting marketing from there. I don't think it like that. Why?

People say all marketing is good marketing. I don't believe that. I think good marketing is good marketing and bad marketing is bad marketing. People say all publicity is good publicity. I don't believe that.

Really? Tell me. I think karma is karma.

So if you do bad things and take marketing, it will catch up. So marketing should leave a good taste in people's mouth. You should associate it with positive emotion.

Negative emotion marketing is not marketing. Okay. What is Zomato's marketing strategy in its core? Because I know that people from agencies tell you that it's all over the place.

It's a mess, anything is happening. But still people know about the brand. So your core mentality will be right.

What is your thought process? Especially your marketing branding team. Do you have only one team? Yes, I have a small team. Small team?

Yes. What do you tell them? They say it themselves. I don't say anything.

So, I think the principle they have narrowed down to is that we have to make somebody smile. Whenever we have a... marketing message, notification, Insta post, whatever you see, there should be a positive energy. Yes.

Smile on the people's faces. So they try to do that. That's it.

That's it. First principles thinking. Yes.

So you try to make people smile. As many people as possible as well. Because you can also narrow down.

You can narrow down and send a non-relevant notification. So we try to achieve generic smiles. Okay.

But you hire for that team? To bring in humor? Yes, it keeps going. Okay.

There you hire Gen Z's, I'm assuming. Correct. Correct? Has Zomato's marketing changed over the years? I think distribution channels have changed.

But the... the tonality, what we've been trying to achieve. We try to achieve consistency in that. Distribution channels, means first Facebook, then Insta, Twitter.

Okay. Now what? What's hot now? Now what's hot is Insta and push notifications. Our push notification distribution is quite high.

And it goes viral a lot. And that's a thought out process. It's a strategy.

It's not just that it's gone. It's gone. If you have a problem, then stick to it. The delivery partners of Zomato, I'm telling you, I'm listening to a lot of podcasts. What would you like to say to them?

There's a lot of range in Zomato delivery partners. So range of quality of work, of quality of people. So, I mean, largely I would say thank you and continue doing the good work.

Okay, drive safe. And take care of your health. Or exercise. Don't break your backs. It's a hard job.

So please take care. Please take care of yourself. Yeah.

Okay. And those top level delivery partners. what you want to say this is what I would say same thing thank you take care of yourself okay alright and like bottom people I will tell there is a lot of fraud at the bottom as well don't do it relax chill do good work eventually make more money if you means try to make money Sir, why are you ordering from Zomato? Tell us directly.

I mean, we'll pick up the food and run away from the customer. Really? The customer will say, Sir, your online payment is not done. He'll come back to you.

Give me cash. Some random things. So...

Really? It happens all over the country? The bottom 1% is less.

It happens. They, I don't... In Mumbai, it's less, I feel.

Personally. We don't let it happen. So what happens if it happens?

The rider gets terminated. So if I tweet on Twitter or post anything on Instagram, there are a lot of answers below. Sir, please reactivate my ID. deactivate it.

Those are all the riders caught in fraud. 98% are accurate. 2% we are also at fault by putting people in a box where they shouldn't be. But 98% people...

Did you anticipate that there would be such problems in food delivery? I mean, it was happening from day one. It was happening from day one. So you knew that this is going to happen. This happens.

It happens in India mostly. Yes. In which cities?

In all. In all? In Mumbai, Delhi? Yes. In Mumbai, Bangalore?

In all. Okay. What is their mentality?

To make money or to eat? Or to have fun? I think that no one will know.

This is an app. So generally new riders do it. So many new riders come. Means in a month, 20-30 thousand new people join.

So, a small percentage of them think that this is an app, what will they know if I do this? But eventually, we get to know that. Okay.

A very, sorry for the language, a little sh**ty question. Okay? But, exactly how does Zomato earn money from one delivery?

So... Customer charges are some. And restaurant also gets commission because order is generated for restaurant.

Yes. And so marketing fee will be there in a way. And we have come to give money to rider. Correct. So this some money is coming, some money is going.

Okay. The whole goal is that the money that is coming should be more than the money that is going. Okay.

If a customer has spent 100 rupees, 100 rupees spent on Zomato. On food or on delivery charges. Okay. Let's say 200 rupees total spend of customer. We don't make money on orders of 200 rupees.

Okay. 1000? 1000 is decent.

How much? 1000 is... Actually... Let's say 300. The average is 300. The average is around 300-400 depending on the city. So let's assume the average is 400. If the average order value is 400, then our commission will be blended at around 80. Okay.

There is a 20% commission, less than 20, 17-18 types, within that range. So, let's assume it's around 80 rupees. And, customer delivery charges, 20-25 rupees.

Correct. So, 100 rupees is the revenue. Nothing else. And cost, delivery cost, 60, 50, 70, depending on the city.

Correct. And distance. If the distance is more, then the cost is more.

If the distance is less, then the cost is less. Then customer support charges. If you chat, your agent, his cost.

Okay. Payment, payment gateway fee. If you don't like the food, then you have to refund.

Okay. How do you give such big discounts sometimes? Discounts are very less.

But they used to be there before? They used to be less before also. Okay. It seems more.

Okay. 50% off up to 80. It's not 50% off. It's 80 rupees off.

Hmm. It's an order of 400 rupees. It's 20% off, right?

Yes. Nice. I want to change it but... I don't call this discounting honest.

Discounting should be honest. If you are telling anything to the customer, it should be honest. It should be 80 rupees off. It should not be 50% off up to 80. But if this keeps on competing, I won't be able to make this change.

Because you are saying this on the internet, a lot of people's brand trust is increasing in Zomato. Because the founder is coming and saying things so openly. Are you aware of that? I don't know. Okay.

You are very unprocessed. I mean, you just say it. So, I like it. And this is what the audience also likes. I have been like this since childhood.

Okay. I would like to talk a little more about orders. So, on a national scale, you are basically roughly making 80 to 100 rupees off an order.

That's revenue. Then from that, the rider... All the cost is gone.

So, 5-10 rupees are made with difficulty. Yes, profits. Yes. But 5-10 rupees nationwide. I mean, where do you make 5-10 rupees?

After that, the fixed cost comes. All the team, all the tech, server cost, this, that, all the drama. 1 rupee.

or 2 rupees is difficult to make. Wow. But at scale, from that 1-2 rupees core profit, how did you become profitable? If 1-2 rupees start becoming profitable, then I'll become profitable.

Really? Because the scale is so big. Orders are so many.

Earlier, our cost was more than revenue. As soon as the balance tip, it became profitable. Okay. This is the long term VC money game.

Like taking VC money. I don't know about VC money. Look, businesses like ours have fixed costs.

Which is quite heavy. Fixed cost is... the cost of engineering team, product managers, ops teams, blah, blah, blah.

Now, the cost of fixed team will be the same whether my business is of 1 third size or 10x size. It will remain the same. Okay.

So, when I look at the cost per order of this team, when my orders increase, the cost per order of this team will fall. And this is a heavy cost. It's not easy.

So, if I scale 10x, then my cost per order will be less. So, if I do something, and move revenue will be the same and my other sub-costs will be the same and I scale my profitability will increase which is why we are expanding into more countries we are not expanding into more countries we are an India only business but you have purchased businesses But we did it earlier, everything was closed in COVID. Oh, okay. How did that feel?

Bad? Bad. How do you deal with it?

How much money have you spent on them? That's the mental health. It's done now, right?

Can't look back. Some cost. Okay. Coming back to India.

Coming back to India. Just by being a YouTuber, I'm making content. And my small site.

silo of the audience. It's a big silo, but it's not so big. It's maybe 20-25 million in a good scenario as compared to billions of Indians.

But still, I feel that I have got one sample size, we get data, so I can see the future through that data. Okay. Do you feel the same way about Zomato, because you are serving so many people in India, all over India. Have you got any information about cities? Have you got any information about cities?

Yeah, I think people are making more money. India is developing super fast. So, I am excited about India.

Okay. Optimistic. Okay.

Quite a lot. Okay. And to the point I don't even want to go outside of India.

and X to expand this business. I was like, there is so much in India for the next decade. If it's a 100% saturation point, how far have you reached? I think India has reached 10%.

India... has reached 10. As in potential wise. I think economic superpower India will become in the next 10-20 years. China-US scale.

So I can feel it. Spending power will increase. Spending power will increase.

People will have good food to order. Food is just one of the things. Blinkit is there for example.

So Hyperpure is there. So multiple things. You have to just focus on India and scale.

India and focus on Indians. I think that's our goal for now. Okay.

So I'm assuming that you targeted the metro stations in phase 1, Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, etc. Right now, 900 cities. Okay. I would like to know about 900 cities. Which are the ranges of 800 to 900. Where, where, can you name some cities?

I don't know. The smallest towns. Mooksar is also one of them, the hometown I'm from.

So, Okay. It's the 956 city by population, if I'm not wrong. People spend there too?

Absolutely. And what have you found out about those cities? I think Zomato's use case is a little unique because there is not much to spend.

How will you go to see a movie? There are no shopping malls. So if you have money, you need something new in your life.

So if you want to break the routine, then Zomato is a very good option. Now, at this point, September 2023, what is the challenge of Zomato? I think growth and profit, that's external.

And internally, we focus on team quality. And I think that's my big area of work now. I do HR a lot these days. Because the scale at which you are working, you need to care about culture much more than... I mean, as I said, right people at the right places.

If they are there and they are working on the right problems, then we are sorted. I have to make sure that we have the right people and they are being trained well and they are being coached well. So, that's about it. Is it easier than your previous business phases that you are focusing on HR?

I think, this is a phase in life where I am able to do this. So, I don't know whether this phase will last. Tell us about your 3-4 big mistakes in short. Not specifics, just generally learnings from those mistakes. For young entrepreneurs?

I think one big thing I have, I don't know if it's 3 or 4, in 2015, 2013, 2014, we did a lot of international expansion. At that time, I was like, India is small. There is no market size in India. We go international.

Should have focused on India. Stayed in India. Should have been chill. Power focus?

Huh? Is learning power focus here or is it learning to focus on India? You should focus on India. And I think even right now, there are a lot of startups who come and say, I'm going international.

My advice is, just stay in India, chill. Why? Because, every market is different, first of all.

Every country, the regulations, the people that you're going to work with, the culture will change. The culture you... If you work in India, that culture is Middle East, Europe, and you won't be the same in the US.

Correct? So then it becomes harder to run an organization if you go to multiple countries. Compliance, legal bills, regulations, it's just complex.

And people say that India's market size is not big. That's why I am going out. I say that it is not today. After 10 years, it will be too much.

And like me, we have closed all the international markets. You will also do it. So because you will say that 90% of India is mine.

of the business is made I am for 10% business size why am I spending 50% time it doesn't work correct so we shut down international when India was hitting 93% of our revenue but effort was so much that means Australia's country manager means we didn't have time to talk on the phone with him why should we do it you are 1% up So, it was actually prudent to shut it down. Okay. But what was your mentality before the expansion?

Growth. Growth. Aggression.

Scale. You wanted to hit the ball. Yes.

There should be some ball to hit. Okay. If today you were 22 years old and you know in your heart that you want to enter in startups, again, Zomato style, something like that, it's a very hypothetical question.

But if you were a young entrepreneur today, what kind of business would you do in India? I don't know, man. I mean, it doesn't matter if I'm 22 or whatever, but if I had such a brilliant crack of an idea, I would still be chasing it in my mind.

Okay. Uh, if someone took everything from you today and left you at bare minimum, then what do you do? Start again.

Start Zomato again? No, start something new again. What something new?

I don't know. You take time off to learn? Yeah. How would you learn?

Wander. Travel? No, wander.

Mentally. Do you do mental wandering now? How? Read.

Reading is my thing. What do you read? Random books.

Okay, really? Yeah. About?

Chemistry, physics, biotech, I do everything. Why, just like that? Yeah.

To exercise your brain? Yeah. Which is the most boring book you've read? I don't know.

I don't do anything like that. Which was the most impactful book? Which is the most impactful book I've read? I should have the answer to this, but I don't have it.

Okay. What's the book you gift the most? Nowadays, I do culture.

Apart from your book? Art of thinking clearly is... my most gifted book outside of that. First principles thinking based.

I'm assuming. Human biases. How to read your own mind. Tell us a little.

I mean, art of thinking. It's very human. Humans have a lot of biases.

We are not rational. We take a lot of emotional, stupid calls. And there are a lot of heuristics in it.

I think 70, 80, 100 will be there. So if you can internalize them, you take better calls, decisions. Why do you read books on chemistry?

Why do you read books on chemistry? I think everything is the same. First principle thinking, if I come down to it.

So chemistry also... teaches you a lot of things. So physics also teaches you a lot of things.

Which you can apply in Zomato? Can. Of course. Some point in time.

I don't know how. Basically you are saying that learn something, don't know when it will be useful. At least you will become smart. Because when you need something, then you don't know what should be the solution for it. Or what should I learn to solve it.

Life is not that easy. So the more information you download into your brain, you are able to use it sometime. Constant learning process is important. Bureautech. business career?

I don't know. It happens. For you? I operate like that.

Okay. Next time, I'll ask you about chemistry. Dipinder Goya, thank you. It was fun talking to you.

Thank you, sir. Lots of love, lots of good wishes. Go to India.

The next 10 years that are going to happen in India, a lot of money will reach you and Zomato delivery partners. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

Thank you. So friends, this was today's episode. I really like business conversations.

But we do very few business conversations. Because, honest to God, we don't get views on business conversations. So you tell me, from a business perspective, which other business legends would you like to see? Send us guest recommendations on TRS.

And keep following TRS.

Transcript for:Dipinder Goyal's Entrepreneurial Insights

Transcript for:
Dipinder Goyal's Entrepreneurial Insights