okay so let us start inshallah and greetings to everyone who are here first of all let me introduce myself I am Muhammad shos and I will be the moderator for today's interview inall ald all right so first of all let me um Express a gratitude to Professor William chiti for your willingness to be with us today indeed your presence um will be beneficial to all of us who are Hunger who who have the hunger and thirst for knowledge and for everyone who are here thank you for supporting our program indeed tradic or Center for Advance infan studies is a research institute in Malaysia so here uh we are dedicated to the furthering study of Islamic philosophy and we have U not only invited Professor William ch and indeed this is not our first program but we also have uh interview with James Wiston moris k w ears and also uh parvis Mor we also have special lectures from Scholars throughout the world and we open um all of our programs for free except for uh classes like um tap Sufi and so on which we conducted here in Malaysia so uh without further Ado let me introduce uh this program a little bit for everyone so uh this is a part of our program and we will be opening uh the floor for everyone uh to us after I interview a few questions to our esteem speaker so our esteem speaker speaker for here uh that is here with us today is Professor William Chik who I will not be introducing to you anymore he is already famous he is already known for his Works in philosophy Sufism Islamic mysticism Iran and so on and so forth so um after intervie after interviewing him I open the floor to everyone to ask anything that you want particularly regarding Islamic philosophy Islamic mysticism Sufism and Iran and every and anything that is related to it inshallah so Professor William Chik how about we go to the first question yeah so my first question to you would be um as I have said as I have mentioned you are already known throughout the world for your Works in Sufism tasa and so on um which actually a part of Islamic philosophy and um actually we really wanted to know what Drew you to the study of sash which actually uh quite different from the Western mysticism or so on so maybe you can share with us what Drew you and your experience um dealing with this type of study one thing after another uh as an undergraduate I was looking didn't know for what I shifted my major to three times um then I heard about a program to send students to uh the Middle East the Beirut the American University Beirut so I signed up in order to get out of Ohio and uh went not knowing what to expect except that I heard uh there was a very nice Beach on the Mediterranean right there at the University so that was a a big attraction and uh then I arrived and I needed a a project in history I took a couple of courses in Islamic history I needed a project for my University back home the the only Topic in the two books on Islam Islamic history I read that was kind of interesting to me was something called Sufism never heard of it I didn't know what it was so I started doing research and so yes and of course that was the year that said Hussein Nas happened to be a visiting professor at the American University and eventually I started uh auditing his classes he welcomed me and by the end of the year uh I decided that I in order to keep on studying roomi whom I had fallen in love with I needed to learn persan and so I checked with Dr n can I come to Iran and learn Persian he said well sure of course you're welcome there's a good program for foreign students uh they'll teach you you can learn Persian there and study whatever you want so that is the brief version of the story thank you so much indeed um an amazing background to how you are interested and also attracted to the study of Islamic mysticism now um what uh when you are studying Islamic mysticism and throughout your study of it um what what does differ what what is the differing or differentiation between Islamic mysticism and also other religious mysticism that um you have come across I think each I don't like the word mysticism you may have noticed in my books but in any case just for uh ease of discussion I'll use it um the the basic issue is the where this tradition is rooted The Roots where do the roots go back otherwise we've got two things going on one is human nature which I think all Traditions agree is a essentially a divine nature and the Western tradition were created in God's image uh were receptive to the Revelation the self-revelation of God uh the various religions and traditions all provide paths whereby you can discover who you are and discover who God is so I I find that the starting points are very different the ending points are different too because even at the highest level of self-realization of God as the uh the famous axum goes there's no repetition in the Divine self-disclosure which means that you and I and her and him and the Buddha will never see God the same God always it's the god that is revealed to each of us made in his unique image so it's not that all rades lead to yes all RS lead to the one but all understandings can't no understanding can understand the one if I can put it that way which is why there's a very strong stress in both Islamic philosophy and especially Sufism and capacity there's a there's a receptive that the cause goes back to the receptacle that is the image in which you have been made we've all been made in the Divine image but your image is different from my image and from different each IND human individual is a unique manifestation of the one God is one he doesn't repeat himself he can make an Infinity of his images full images each unique so this idea that all roads lead to the one well yes or no all roads go back to the one of course because there's only one but everyone's perception and arrival at the one will be unique that's again the brief event Ian araby of course discusses this in the most detail uh like in any issue of uh Sufism eron uh Arab is your your basic source for these views and then later philosophers and like make that very systematic work it out in detail in philosophical terms in brief all right thank you so much uh Professor William CTI now um You you already mentioned about uh roomi you already mentioned about Arabi and also sadin aliri all we we known him as mull sadra so in your works we can see that um these names and more other names are being mentioned um repeatedly and also you have been discussing them uh so much throughout your works so U we wanted to know actually are you actually outlining a particular intellectual project and if so where can we start with your works and where is um and how can you situate it today in the vast realm or vast cpose of Islamic uh knowledge well no I'm not I don't have a project so to speak I get involved with texts I'll come across and usually it has to do with let's say I'm invited to a conference and I need a topic and I'm looking for a topic and I find a topic and then I'll get caught by a particular a I mean early on I went after room I ran after AR both of them were very uh uh very very well known and really attracted me but at the same time for example this is typical of what happened the encyclopedia ironica where I was working for a time needed an article on a k b right this philosopher uh they didn't have anyone that couldn't find anyone to invite because no one had written anything okay I volunteered I was an editor I said I'll write the article that was an opportunity because I knew he was important so I read his I I read his works very quickly and realized he's a fascinating philosopher so I wrote a couple of Articles and then I decided to translate as much as I could in one volume so this led to of course my book on uh the heart of Islamic philosophy the same thing has happened in my current work basically I'm working on S far extremely important disciple of s Ki who of course is Arab's son-in-law and the most important propagator of Arab farani has been ignored largely in the second Dair literature I've written a few things on him back way back when but in the last five years I've been dedicating understanding uh his work for translating his major work uh interpreting it uh and it's because of my own interest I'm not you know I don't have a project except to understand what's going on I find something that's beautiful that is not really studied which should be studied it attracts me I go after it so and and now as for my my works I mean if I had when I have to give advice this we begin with the introductory text which is usually written late of course you read the in you write the introduction last or towards the end of the book same with these books on well of course the vision of Islam which my wife Sai omat and wrote together that of course is a good place to begin and then the int int Sufism a short introduction or what's it called to beginner's guide these sorts of first books if you want ifan araby you could start with uh one of my short books on iban Arby which were written after the long books and then if you're really interested then go to selfish uh Sufi Path of Knowledge which will keep you busy for a while and eventually you know uh hopefully in about inshallah two years Faron will be out and when farani comes out this book you're going to find the most thorough systematic exposition of Aon I think ever written to tell you the truth I don't think there's anyone who is so systematic and relatively concise mol is systematic but he goes all over the place and he doesn't have one book which really says everything so anyway Faron is a really great figure ignored in the secondary literature for one reason he's extremely difficult I could only do this at the end of my career not at the beginning uh anyway so yeah um are you going to continue your answer my you are you going to continue if uh no please go on question I think I covered unless I something but okay uh next question from me so you have been mentioning about well I can say a bit of your career and throughout your career of reading ing writings translating um what has been the most surprising discovery that you have made about Islamic mysticism and Sufism that's really hard to say I guess the most surprising was to me early on afterwards I got used to it was that the secondary literature mostly have it all wrong all these books on Ian araby they were largely missing the point roomy the same way uh in other words the orientalists weren't doing a good job of explaining what is going on in the text and even the initial studies of the texts weren't nearly as careful or as thorough as they should have been someone like Corban for example which of course uh wrote this amazing book on Ian Arabi but he just takes one side of Ian Arabi and turns it into his own philosophy and he isn't really when you get down to it talking about he's talking about his own understanding isusu was better in terms of analyzing texts but ISU was also very limited especially in because his book is based on abak kashani as much Asus both of those great Scholars I really respect both of them they only they didn't go beyond the Fus I mean the Fus that's just you know that's one small book in a huge Corpus the only way to really understand what's going on in Fus is to study the fut or you can start reading commentaries there were over 100 so that will keep you busy but the Fus sadin gvi of course is the person who singled out the Fus from Ian AR's works and taught taught it to his students two of them wrote commentaries at Tani of jandi these very important commentaries jandi in particular jandi was this was the teacher kashani abdz who became the most important in among the Arab Scholars that's kind of the go-to commentary K was the teacher of K who among Iranians and philosophers they love Cas series commentary but it all goes back to qu who's another figure who needs very very thorough study but that will take it's not going to happen in my lifetime K is again is a very a very difficult author I wish I could inshallah we'll have a few more years uh I would like to get back to him because I worked on them a lot earlier but then I realized it's just there too many difficulties and clarifying what he says in English all right so in your opinion um what are actually the Misunderstood aspects of Sufism in the west many [Laughter] come I mean the most basic I think is this idea which is unfortunately rather rampant among Muslims to that Sufism and Islam are somehow not really connected that Sufism is kind of an addition which is added on this is very very prevalent in the secondary literature you know where did Sufism come from I mean they used to historical studies what so many scholars still can't seem to understand the sism simply focus on the purpose of the Islamic teachings the intention of the Islamic teachings we make that point in the vision of Islam already that Islam the Sharia is all about what you must do the right way of doing things utterly essential in any religion there are instructions which are both ritual and also have to do with human interactions vendors why are you doing it anyone with a bit of intelligence after by the time they're teenagers they saying hey how come I have to do this prayer how come I have to fast well now it's the faith how to understand who God is who is the prophet who are the prophets what is the role of Prophecy this Isam philosophy theoretical Sufism it all addresses these questions so you can ask the questions know and you don't have to listen to your Mulla and say who says you have to believe because God said so in the Quran but that's the ridiculous way to deal with students because I said so right and the speaking on behalf of God because I said so accept it so many students have taught me told me this is how they were taught Islam and their mosques in any case but what is the purpose of acting correctly and understanding it's to become human fully human to actualize our human nature and that comes about through what is called isan or one of the many names it's the Sufi teachers who focus on that also the the philosophers do it in their own way of course anyway I've written about this practically every book since the vision of Islam addresses this issue that you cannot separate sism out and say this is not real ISL or this is added later it's not added later anymore than the Sharia is added later they don't talk about all these rules and regulations in the Quran this was the development of the Quran and of the Hadith the way it the Islamic community worked out how to understand these things by the way let me put in a a a word for what is up till now I think my favorite book on Islamic learning uh in as much as it's the most complete of any book I've seen which covers all of the dimensions without separating them up integrating them together and this is Ral AR the Repose of the Spirits by Ahmed samani which I of course I've done a translation of it the text it's Persian commentary on the divine names 500 pages in the English translation it's an extraordinary book the author is a younger contemporary of gazali Al gazali the great Al gazali he's a much better writer if I do excuse me kazali have the tremendous respect for the works of kazali but when kazali gets translated into English it's pretty boring as on the whole and so the the uh I don't know about well whatever whereas samani is just fun even though he's dealing with theology he's dealing with Sharia he's dealing with Sufism he practically he doesn't use the word Sufism except in a couple of quotes uh but he's like doesn't say I'm talking about sufis says I'm talking about God and the human relationship with God that's what the Divine names are all about after all it's how we can understand our relationship to God I understand the meaning of those names so that's a that's a really really great book it it it needs it should be you know widely recognized as the best comprehensive presentation of the religion of Islam at least available in English much better than any of the individual books of Al kazali if you can read all 40 well sure that'll give you the whole picture but one volume in which it's all all integrated together that's very difficult to find all right thank you so much uh Professor chiti um I believe that that is all my questions uh for you um because we create this program um so that the audience can ask you and also interact with you um and here in the chat box actually there are there are so many questions so I also believe that uh um there are who there are people who wanted to interact directly with you um so this is the rule um firstly I will ask through the chat box and then I will let um people to ask you directly and then back to the chat box and then um let people ask you directly so it is interchangeable as you like all right so I will go to the first question in the chat box um it is here by friend Yim I'm sorry if I pronounce your name incorrectly um how do you think a serious Sufi likeu Arabi or roomi would like would respond to what is happening in Palestine what would he tell the Palestinians William um yes what would he tell the Palestinians what would he tell the Israelis and what would he tell the Americans and secondly how would he respond if his children were murdered would he grieve or will he accept God's will without grieving that is the first question well first of all I'm not going to enter any sort of political discussion I will only say that the response of the Prophet is ald that would be the response of those now the individual that is built with another level Al together that's the universal response God knows what he's doing we do not know what he's doing all right um so we have here Arif wakil Arif wakil if I'm not mistaken do I announce your name correctly okay you may ask the question interact with prop what what good evening or good morning professorum I I just more have a thank you and an acknowledgement in a very small question at the end which is not so important I just very very deeply deeply deeply grateful for the work you've done you've written um just reading your text this uh over and over again just the same chapter just uh absolutely completely totally overwhelmed so just being virtually in the same room with you is uh a blessing enough uh certainly a lifetime is not enough to explore the reality I've read very little and already overwhelmed um got so much out of just this brief introduction with you as well I am very curious about something so it is a little bit of a personal question um I'll I'll Be Brave and Bold and Brash enough to ask it anyway and just like you feel feel free to dismiss it um I was very deeply touch introduced uh to your work by this beautiful book and now I'm I'm all over the place I just keep dabbling all over your Works among other authors but I keep coming back to yours the beautiful story that you shared of your experience um um um yeah at some point you mentioned that this was just part of the experience so I was wondering is there anywhere else where we can learn more about it have there been more such not um it's not it it's just exciting to read about um any stories are and especially this and especially uh we speak to a person who've been through it that's what's there on top of my mind at the moment love Professor thank you so much that's [Music] let me just be again very brief that the way that got came to be written has also a long story but which is but but it all goes back to my own imagination I wanted to reframe some of these ideas in a form which are more attractive to people instead of standing back theoretically but how would you know you interact with since they talk about these sorts of experiences quite often in the texts well this is my um Imagination of how if this imaginable person were to appear today this is what they you know he and the person he appears to might talk about so let's leave it at that got it thank you so much Professor that's all for me thank you for the kind remarks all right thank you uh aril uh you may let down your hand so that I will not be confused okay so next question from the chat box um one question I have is how to understand Islamic philosophical terms like accident and substance according to God's for in the context of the primordial meaning of reality of things the study of philosophy is a longterm occupation you cannot simply give you know someone a list of terms this means that this means that philosophy is itself a worldview or which traditionally was carried out stage by stage and so this is a problem of course with these classic texts when they get translated these authors assume that you already know this terminology anybody who knows much at all about Islamic philosophy or Sufism theoretical Sufism is certainly familiar with substance and accent uh these are of course substance and accidents Aristotelian go back to Aristotle Aristotle explains what means it means uh my heart of Islamic philosophy I try to being perfectly aware that most students have no background whatsoever in philosophical learning I spent a lot of time in the introduction trying to clarify and explain the basic terminology which is used everywhere not just by philosophers the theologians use the same term I mean this the the the uh use of this terminology which Aristotle of course was you know they call him the first teacher in Arabic he was a seriously great person who systematized everything and so the Muslim Scholars found his systems very useful in order to clarify their ideas substance and accident is one of many ways of talking about things so uh either you go back and start studying some basic philosophy and make it classical philosophy not modern philosophy modern philosophy will just confuse you more and more and more classical philosophy Greek philosophy Aristotelian philosophy there's plenty sources for that uh in West in Western thought Plato and Aristotle still play a major role uh and there are introductory books to Islamic philosophy which will help you out but uh otherwise you can't I think just jump into a book on philosophy written by a philosopher and expect to understanding he is using words that he expects all of his students to have learned on the basic courses right this is to spend you know a year studying logic two years which all of the terminologies defined and the students learn what their meanings are and learn what their uh how to use and then they move on to the Natural realm uh mathematics perhaps there various roots of getting to the heart of the matter which is elat the Divine things metaphysics as it's as platinus was translated the the Theology platinus of Aristotle soal so there's no easy route to learn what philosophical terms mean you have to do some basic study of philosophy can I say all right thank you Professor William Chik uh let us move on to mea silu because he raise his hand first so please me uh sir you un muted yeah yes yesam everyone I have three questions actually if you don't mind uh first uh regarding uh over 100,000 Adams I think that's mentioned by in Arabi uh I first read over three decades ago and in my auntie's place I can't remember which but I remember that that phrase where Arabi said he went was it cumulating the Kaa and he saw uh this person which looks like out of time out of place and he thought to himself is that Adam and he chase after that person and then he asked are you Adam and that person asked which Adam there are many many Adam you know and I I remember there's a place that said Arabi said there's 100 over 100,000 Adam except later on when I want to find out where is it said uh later I find that okay which volume of uh Mak did he say that and I find that I only read the first and second volume there's 39 volumes I don't know where so my question is in which volume is that that reference and what is actually said that's one question second is uh I read this person who said he studied all volumes of uh and he said that Arabi interpreted the six days of creation six days of creation as in you know uh God created the world the universe everything in six days and then he went up and on on the Arash for his place of power okay but this person said that actually from his reading of inabi in meant to say that actually the six years of creation meant One Direction One Day One Direction that's one Dimension One Direction One Direction that's that means go into two two Dimension One Direction one up that three dimension and that what he said that is whatab on six days and then the on the seventh day when God is on the sitting on the Arash that means that uh creation is manifested in time and that happens every every moment this is what this Spate uh Arin meant by that idea okay that's a good question yeah so what is what in what in what volume of uh say that let me interrupt you're asking the wrong person here I'm not an encyclopedia ofan Arab you're going to have to go search at least you can search these days you can that is to say you can find a PDF or rather a word dock of of Arab if you can't the fut and if you can't find it I can send it for you uh but I don't know I don't know where that's found it's not the type of little tiny issue that I have really any interest in this is this is kind of antiquarian stuff I mean it's you know this aity and that aity the there's so many more important and more basic issues that need to be clarified before you get into these little strange anecdotes and stories which I Arabi sometimes quotes and sometimes uh question just to what do you think of yakaza you know some said that you you can uh have experience meeting the prophet in person in person whether whe it's not a dream whether it is uh like a projection a 3D holograph I don't know in person or bodily but there are many accounts of that so what do you think of that the the experience of yakaza okay that's it I think God can do anything he wants now whether any of these accounts are true or just stories you know for to build up your own reputation or to attract disciples I have no idea every individual is is different so it's possible I would leave it that all right um thank you Professor William Chik and also and also thank you mea silu for your questions uh now we go to the chat box here by n Alam again um his second question in the subcontinent people think that Ahmed sindi introduced to fix the issue in is there any issue there I've written two or three things about this you can find them on my website one is uh for the Encyclopedia of Islam uh the issue is has to do of course with the circumstances of Ahmed Hindi in India at the time uh was a real difference I point it out one of the problems with Ahmed s Hindi is he didn't know much about the history of Islamic thought and he thought shud and wud are two different things or in early usage shul which is witnessing and wud which is finding finding in yourself they parallel Concepts there's not that much difference so it's kind of a madeup to me it's a madeup opposition which is useful for times what he's really driving it is of course that there are these people claiming to be sufis in the subcontinent I've run across some there even are you know in recent times today and now in California who say the uh the Shar is not necessary because everything is one right so since everything is one it makes no difference what you do it's all gone this kind of nonsensical thinging I think he was that's what people were making of This notion remember that again I've written quite a bit on this is not a teaching of eil Arabi it is not found in his writings it is a concept which was applied to his writings by later thinkers like event Tamia in particular but what would you you show me yes of course you say but but he says that wud is well of course wud is W how many true wws do we have that's to that's the simplest idea in Islam there's only one reality there's only one true wud that's self-evident you think if an Arab thought there were two necessary existence of course wal would you everybody knew that perfectly well so why did w would you suddenly come it it wasn't sudden it was very gradual has to do with sir Hindi his objectiv has to do with people making ill use of the concept say ah since everything's one doesn't matter what I do and we can just do the Sufi dancing and take a little hashish on the side and go into ecstasy and everything will be fine uh so this this whole issue against is not is to me it's an artificial one uh it has to do with local situations and with she Ahmed well anyway let's not get into it any more than this other than me to say there's there's no real issue there it has to do with the context in which it was poed all right thank you thank you uh n Alam for your question and thank you Professor William CTI for your answer uh next we go to Mr rhan Khaled I see you raise your hand first before this Mr ran kham alayum Professor uh so I've seen your article about Arabi in the Stanford philosophy in the internet so what introduced me is that you said that uh Arabi is hard to understand and then it's easy to dismiss him has a Mystic and a penist so the question is I want to ask first question is that is the mystical reading or the pantheistic reading or ONN Arabi was not correct what is pantheism and what is mysticism if you can define those words for me I can answer you otherwise they're just empty words what do you think pantheism means what do you think mysticism means these are the words manufactured by orientalists in order to be able to dismiss people they don't like a Mystic is not reliable a Mystic is involved with Mysteries and and and and mysterious things not with reality Mystics don't deal with objectivity therefore we can dismiss them a pantheist oh they believe that everything is God there's nothing there so this is this is all these are madeup words no one claims to be a pantheist maybe a western philosopher too otherwise people are accused of being pantheists why is that because it's a terrible word in English so it's not there's no substance to these arguments it's it's a waste of time to try to figure out was he a pantheist first of all if you can give me a definition of pantheism which makes sense which corresponds with the way it's used then uh I will respect you to no end because you've just solved the problem a lot of people what the heck are they talking about but no in the understanding of pantheism that is usually thrown on and mysticism no certainly not Ian AR cannot be classified by any name which is why I've to the point I've made over and over again my writings he does not fit into categories why because he Embraces all the categories himself and tells you what each category and this is has everything to do with this whole discussion of the station of no station the category of no category uh the I've I've written one of my articles all my articles by the way the published articles are all on my website William what is it William c.com you can just download them and read them uh the Ultimate model of the ultimate I think is one of the name of one of my articles it's about am araby and and this issue of how his perspective is unclassifiable because it is too broad and Embraces all possible perspectives that's again brief the brief version all right so thank you for the first uh the answer for the first my first question and the second question is about the as you said before for the previous person is that you said that is just a term that is it is even not the teaching of I Arabi and what intrig me in the your article in the Stanford an phy is that the way that Arabi says or God as the most real being like how AA says that every contingent thing are dependent on necessary being so so thep Arabi is not from uh promoting a monistic reading like hartis something like that no arabarab is uh there's nothing at all strange about what eabi holds on to that's the issue asserting the unity the Oneness of God acknowledging that only there's only one reality there is nothing real but the real if Wu has any reality at all says it in the several times there is nothing in existence but God I mean because there's only one true reality the existence of other things is as you just put it a puts it contingent since it's contingent it's not real it's only real in terms of the other and the other is the necessary because the necessary is necessary the contingent gains a certain reality it's not real reality it's Mazz it's a metaphorical realities so to sayi is the mon is wrong he wrong what do you mean by monist don't use these Western categories what is a monist every Muslim believes in the one you're not a Muslim if you're not for that matter everyone who in any religion I know believes that there's no God but God they just use different names all right thanks for the answer uh Professor William all right thank you ran KH you mean raise down your hand so we have here questions back to the chat box by imas Yu please share your views about Hussein mansur alash on how we should start learning about him about him how we should learn about M yes as you like I don't know I mean is a very big figure in Sufi literature Islamic literature generally especially poetry you can read I mean the the great book is Masson you know the three volume study of halaj and all the historical background uh animer shim wrote a very nice article many years ago in which she does a history of of the different pictures of halaj which are presented in uh Persian Arabic Persian uru Cindi literature right and how halaj plays a very important role he's a Mythic figure more than anything else try to get a historical handle on halaj I think is a waste of time you should just appreciate the way he's he's discussed roomi gives wonderful interpretations of what halaj meant when he said an right and Sham almost makes fun of and here's sham the famous teacher of roomi and yet they have very different interpretations apparently and what the role of halaj is halaj is a a Mor someone you can make a very good lesson from whether you like him or you hate him uh he's he's a lesson to be learned from so I just don't try to figure out exactly who he was that's I think a waste of time same thing goes for anyone else in Islamic history for that matter all right thank you Prof Titi and thank you Prof uh um MTS Yu so we go to the um to the participants here I can see Robert his raising up his hands sir maybe you can ask your question or interact with him thank you um my question will be brief it uh concerns a phrase that I've come across uh what does it mean to be on the heart of a prophet and want still be on the heart of Muhammad Muhammad Embraces all the prophets Muhammad as the last of the prophets his message is Jam as Arabi and everyone says it brings together all the messages that's why the Quran is considered once you have the Quran you don't need any of the other prophetic message because every prophetic message is in the Quran this is a very ancient teaching which so of course you're on the heart of the uh and is full of discussions of this in various terms right and so he talks about uh the the M of the various prophets so this is he'll say this issue is all based on the hik ISA the wisdom of Jesus Jesus presents a specific narrowing of the one into human language in Arabi explains how Jesus's message is different from Moses's message all of them embraced by the one message of Muhammad this is very very standard Central to the wayi thinks about uh the prophets in general Muhammad in particular and I would say it's it's it's very common though not not quite as explicit and not as developed I mean I I mean it's very common other thinkers this well prean AR if you just if you read samani again 100 years he was Bor he he died 50 years before iban Arabi was born and here's this man writing in Persia who gives the most wonderful and beautiful Expressions among other things of the muhammadan reality and how it Embraces all realities all right thank you um Rik and also Robert for your question um is there any more question Robert um can one still be on the heart of Muhammad this of course has has been debated ever since especially an Arab because if's uh purported claim it's not clear that he does this but anyway some SE is the Seal of the muhammadan friends of God no if you're a friend of God you're on Muhammad's heart but you're limited by your own capacity to understand God so your capacity F has has wonderful expression explanations of this he does it sometimes in terms of water says Muhammad is the infinite ocean so Muhammad's Muhammad Embraces all possibilities each of the Major Prophets The Seven Major Prophets are one of the seven sees unless their prophets are the Great Lakes un ler Saints are rivers and every single believer is a drop of water now water is water what is that water that is the Muhammad in reality so by following the path of Muhammad you will reach if you do it sincerely and well and all with all the conditions then you will gain your yes you will be it'll be the muhammadan reality but it'll still be your reality which is not the same it's your drop of water or your Lake and not Muhammad's infinite ocean that's the you know very imagistic way to explain this idea but but very very common way of looking at the reality of Muhammad as the all embracing uh every possibility of of human Perfection is embraced by his uh single reality all right thank you professor and also thank you Robert um I will go to the questions in the chat box uh now we have come to the turn of Iman aan um sh can you ask him what is his opinion on Prof alatas and Prof alas sentences of Kalam falsafa fsaf and T viali Andi uh well I Professor atas is an old friend I met him in in in tan oh oh so many years ago 40 40 some years ago uh and I I've read some of his things and I've heard but but as far as but that's as far as I can go and I've heard you know various rumors about his that he's changed some of his ideas in in his maturity shall we call it uh but don't ask me I don't know uh I'm not familiar you know for me to judge what a scholar has done or a philosopher I would have to have read some of their writings and this particularly on this issue I'd heard that this was a there's a difference of opinion Onan AR on the one stand Bali on the other um we all have our capacities and we see things you know in our own way say uh so so sorry I can't address that yeah all right thank youan for asking the question question and thank you uh William tiik uh now we go to the participants I can see Salim farar um raising his hand please uh you may ask your question or interact with him Alum uh I have just one question but hopefully um it's sufficiently concise uh for you to for you to expand and explore it um what is the defining feature of Sufism or tasa and I'm not saying they NE necessarily the same thing and what is it that makes something suic a very simple question this of course the how look at if I could I would not use the word Sufi if I could get away with it but it has become so common and everybody talks about Sufism in their own terms which is why I one reason I try to stay away from General discussions let someone like samani in the 500 page books to me it's the most one of the most Sufi books I've ever read yet he he mentions the word in passing what makes it I don't know I I can you know it's like that old thing about pornography I don't know how to define it but I know it when I see it heard that famous saying of some lawyer some judge way back when I know Sufism when I see it but I can't Define it and part of the its reality is precisely that it is indefinable and when people try to Define it and put it into this historical context or that historical context I think they're they're misleading themselves yes that works for some people but to me it has to be something it has to be a reality which get to the heart of what Muhammad was and what Ali was and the others AB back and the asab the other asab as well it's got to be the lived reality of the religion of Islam that's what I see and when it becomes dry and desicated as it often so often is when it gets into the hands of the jurists and the theologians and these quibbles schools of thought this is the right way and that's the wrong way even Tamia although he was was himself as far as I know practicing Su is still he was very happy to have these arguments uh I you know uh there's no easy answer to that question and if I give an answer then 10 Scholars out there are going to disagree with me so why why bothered I I tried my best there two places where address the issue one is that short book suf of The Beginner's Guide the other is the introduction to Sam Ani the Repose of the spirits because he does use the word the book is in my mind a totally thoroughly utterly Sufi work yet his contemporaries knew him only as a a jurist he's mentioned by contemporaries as aak how what is this fak doing right in this beautiful beautiful exposition of the Divine names which is calam issue and Islam as a living incarnation of beauty as the beauty is also one of the Hallmarks of uh Sufi writing in general the Sufi literature think of the especially the Persian poetry but other other Islamic languages I've been working of course working on IM far farani these past years I'm also working on IM far because his commentary his book is a commentary on far's uh this nma right the the 760 verse which is really verifying the way to God it's an incredible poem uh which I now have translated uh and I think I'm going to be able to get it published with just the translation and just the Arabic text little introduction and that will be hopefully encourage people to read faron's commentary the first of the commentaries on this poem the most complete and I think the most profound of all of them all right thank you uh Salim far and thank you Prof uh chi um we go to the chat box here by nurudin uh Prof what is your view on the Darwin theory of Evolution what about some who say that Mula sadrai and others believe in evolution I have a article called uh The evolutionary psychology of jalaludin roomi it's on my website I suggest you go read it it's not simple it's not there's no simple answer to that question let me just say that the people the Muslim scholars in particular who have have this idea that these people roomi and M Etc uh believed in evolution I think they haven't understood two things one what evolution means two what those poets or philosophers were saying now when you got ignorance of two issues uh getting together of course you get these views that well uh it's it's evolution in any kind of dar inent sense is incoherent in Islamic thought all of Islamic thought makes no sense because everything begins with the one everything is the one is always present with everything he is with you wherever you are and everything is going back to the one so the notion that things begin when this chaos of is as I say Islam ly for that also in terms of other uh Traditions it's incoherent because it leaves out the only final cause the only original cause the only final cause talks only about secondary causes and then also makes certain assumptions about what we can know what science allows us to know when in fact if you go into the you know all these the scientific evidence it's very very flimy anyway this is lots of of things have been written on this and it's it's not my and I say if you're really interested what I think then go to this article The evolutionary psychology all right thank you um nudin for your question and thank you Prof William CTIC for your answer um I believe that I will only take two more question first from the participants and the last one from the chat box um I have to apologize because um in USA is already uh nearing 10 uh and Prof William tiik need to rest so um we will be giving uh these two questions and then maybe Prof William TI can conclude a bit inshallah so I will go to Ryan Habib because we are the one who raised your hand first uh asalam alikum Professor Chik I hope you're doing well uh my question is actually threefold it's specifically concerning the inner heart the CB in t uh firstly uh what is Mercy according to you secondly how crucial is Mercy in transforming the Culp from one spiritual state to another and lastly can anything be forgiven and if so can it be completely forgiven that's Mercy God's mercy Embraces everything uh Mercy is omnipresent Mercy is the reason for creation Mercy is present with us always everything we experience is Mercy uh the heart is Mercy uh I I mean can you define it well can you find Define God for me then I'll Define mercy for God is Mercy he is of course one way to express it if you go through the school of Arabi then then the uh the comes right and says listen Mercy is existence existence is a mercy then of course and and and without our existence with without Mercy there would be no existence God is infinite mercy and and he is merciful even to the to the things that you know the PE the specks of dust and none of us deserve Mercy that's another thing it is he doesn't give us Mercy because we deserve it it's because it is his nature uh water doesn't make you wet as Sam an says because it wants to it's because it's nature to make you want Mercy doesn't save you because you deserve it or something it's because it is his nature to do that so I mean Mercy is just too utterly fundamental in Islamic thought I would say in the Quran as well why does the Quran begin over and over and over again and the heart I mean you know as say it's it's the the uh the seat of the all merciful in in the microcosm in the soul but but I there was something about the growth of the heart or something that yes the transformation of the heart from one spiritual state to another right uh how how is Mercy linked to that like is Mercy Mercy is linked to everything how is existence linked to that it happens now the the uh the basic you really should read uh Repose of the spirits this is the most amazing exposition of the omnipresence of Mercy in the universe that I've ever run across ity does the same thing but it does everything else as well but this particular book is very very focused on this um the it the the transformation of heart we're talking about the past to God there are one way of theorizing about it one way of talking about it listen there basically two forces going on simultaneously one is your effort the other is attraction what your effort saluk way fairing traveling on the path all right you have to do this you have to do that you have to do this you have to do that first of all you have to observe the Shar second of all you have to follow instructions of your she now this is all the effort you put into it's it's it's all of your effort second is jazba jazba is attraction the famous saying is that one jasba of God has more effect than all of the good works of Jin and Men right jasb now and what is jasba it's the Divine Mercy pulling you to itself but what is saluk you said well I'm putting my effort in who gave you the effort who gave you the intention who gave you the aspiration who gave you the shake it's all Mercy it's all God's mercy directing you to your ultimate end mad is also very big un this that we are all being directed to our final end which is determined by God's mercy and all of the Gaz the Wrath which comes along in the way well that's that's to clear out the the clouds to purify the mirror that's to prepare you for The Shining of the sun of Mercy all right um thank you Ryan and also thank you Prof William Chik I believe this is the last question that I would take and this is from the chat box and for me myself I think this is a very great question to close our interview uh from tanir uh and maybe Prof uh William C You can conclude a little bit um a little maybe give some advice to all of us after answering this question as a conclusion so the question is Salam what is your advice for the IM for the emerging young scholars in which areas or Fields they should focus and work or research on well the first thing you have to do is Master the preliminaries language is all important I mean I I whatever tradition you're study we're talking Islamic Studies Arabic Persian are very basic uh then of course if you're doing a if you're going to do be doing graduate study you have to find a good place to do graduate study and you have to be able to work along with a professor because it's not the program which defines a good place to study it's the professor you have to have with it someone who you can work with that will limit your because he'll want to do certain things and maybe not encourage you to do other things so for quite a few years in your studies you're going to have to deal with teachers uh ask them for advice um certainly I would advise you to follow what really attracts you this this idea attra action and uh uh wayfaring that I was just talking about the wayfaring for someone in the University of course is going through all of the uh of the necessary work that you have to do in order to get your degree but the attraction on God's side is can very much you know appear in your heart I don't want to study this I want to study that and follow up on if you can then again you you may be limited by the possibilities of your University or your your library all sorts of of issues so you have to let things develop on their own go forward with the intention of learning as much as you can and and and uh for yourself forget about helping other people could do that later once you get someplace where you have something to help other people with I see a lot of young people that thinking that go out and save the world or save you know uh guide other Muslims on the path or whatever they don't even know what the path is they're out there to help others um so and it it depends of course very much on your own individual situation uh I you know I I can't say follow my my roote my route was you know just one thing after another was just happened just happened I didn't set out for any specific goal I just was curious and and interested and followed and this is where I ended up I hope it's not a bad place all right thank you so much uh Professor William Chik I believe that everyone has learned a lot today and um indeed this is a very um insightful session your answers um have enlightened all of us um to clear out the doubts at least inshallah um for those who are attending um this session today um for those who just entered the session I need to announce that we will be closing the Q&A session already um as I have mentioned is already nearing 10 at uh United States of America um and it's also nearing 10 in the morning in Malaysia um we are forever grateful um to Professor William Titi who are willing to be with us today um despite his busy schedules um in in in in his intellectual projects of translating books writing articles um and also contributing uh to the advancement of Islamic philosophy um particular cly at the global at the global level so thank you so much uh Professor William Chik and for those who want to access uh our videos that we have been posting before either it is uh special lecture or uh interviews with other Scholars like James wion morrris parvis Mor and also k w ears please access our Channel I have put the link of our channel in the chat box um you can visit uh you can subscribe subscribe and please share to your respective peers um to your friends or maybe your acquaintances who are interested in learning Islamic philosophy we are so happy if you can um help us to um Advance the the the knowledge of Islamic philosophy inshallah and for those who want to contact Professor William Chik I have also put uh the link for you to email him um that is in his website um you can access his website you can type down in the Google search William tiik and it will show his website you can uh contact him through the website and you can also read all of his articles and also know uh what is what are the books that he had wrote before um and also maybe know more about him inshallah so thank you so much everyone I believe that is a very beneficial session um the recording will be posted in our Channel after this uh please bear with us uh maybe um late today um or maybe tomorrow um for the time being you can access our old videos um either special lecture or interviews so thank you everyone um and thank you for joining us we are so grateful for everyone particularly Professor William Chik m