Cooperative Architecture and Design Autonomy

Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn Ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn Ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. Scaffold is supported by the Architecture Foundation, bringing new voices to the conversation about architecture in London and around the world. For more information and upcoming events, visit architecturefoundation.org.uk. From the Architecture Foundation, I'm Matthew Blunderfield, and you're listening to Scaffold. Late last month, February 2024, I was in Barcelona with my teaching partner, Kathy Hawley, and our students from the RCA, visiting projects that, in different ways, related to the theme of our studio this year, which is all about excess, or to borrow a phrase from the anthropologist Anna Singh, a new art of living on a damaged planet. Barcelona is full of architectural exuberance. Think Gaudi and Jujol, Enric Marais and Flores Prats, all of them and many more designing buildings that are florid and idiosyncratic, but interestingly, by often repurposing and reorganizing existing materials and building elements. offering an aesthetic of abundance that could conceivably persist in times of profound precarity. On the other hand, there are practices in Barcelona that have a much more ambivalent relationship to the excesses of form and style, prioritizing instead a social richness that can unfold within buildings that are often necessarily more uniform and standardized. A project of this kind we visited was the cooperative housing scheme La Borda, built in 2018, by the practice Lacal. Lacal emerged in Barcelona following the 2008 financial crisis, comprised of tens of students who were all living together in a district of the city called Sants. Faced with dire job prospects and galvanized by their research into Sants' history of workers' cooperative movements, the students began addressing common needs through cooperative structures in the most comprehensive sense, whether that be in the management of energy, the procurement and development of land, or indeed in the establishment of a cooperative architecture practice. Christina Gamboa, a member of LaCalle, gave us a tour of La Borda, and I met with her a few days later at LaCalle's office, itself home to a range of cooperative organizations, to learn more about La Borda and the practice that designed it. And now, my interview with Christina Gamboa. I think it's something I've been noticing in students. A reluctance to design anymore and a kind of caution around this idea of authorship. To assume too much control over a project is now kind of taboo and I mean this is a question very close to the call. Which itself is an architectural collective and works with collectives to make collective work. And maybe we could start there with this question of autonomy. I mean we're kind of jumping... right into things, but to me it's somehow the most crucial question. How as a collective do you find autonomy when there are so many people involved in making the work? Yeah, well I think autonomy is a word that for us connects in many levels, because in for us, La Col was a space of autonomy in a context of crisis and also like working for people without conditions etc etc. And at the same time the project that we are proposing, we are working with La Borda, it's a space where the users or the inhabitants kind of have the autonomy to control the environment, housing environment. So in terms of the design I think that well the space of autonomy for us it's really linked. to the moments of design in a way. I think that despite we are working with, in a collective way, in many levels, we like to understood as inputs, as kind of information and conditions or restrictions that you are to the design. But in the moment where we are kind of understanding how this game became an architectural kind of form, object, building, we feel that we have that autonomy, which is based on also the trust with between all the members and because at the end the environmental consultancy or the municipality or even the user are not that involved in the moment where we are here in a workshop all the members discussing about the project so And it's so clear, especially looking at the project we visited, La Borda, there is a formal autonomy. There's a very reduced material palette and a kind of monolithic form. It's mostly corrugated polycarbonate. carbonate and timber and concrete on the base and you have these strip windows which remind me a bit of modernist housing corbusier and then this roof this other world on the roof which is is for conviviality, for laundry. It's also a garden or a greenhouse. So there's this real singular vision of the building form, and yet a very collective, what you've referred to as co-production of the project itself. And just, I think it's helpful for a moment for me and for listeners to put this in contrast with other forms of co-production or other forms of co-design. And when we... When we toured the building, you brought up the designer or the architect Lucien Kroll. You also mentioned Frei Otto and his Ockerhaus project in Berlin. To me, these are really in opposition in a way, possibly, we could debate, to what Laborda is doing. Could you talk a bit more about these other forms of collective design and the conscious decision to move away from this? the collective appearance into something more homogenous or singular. Yeah, I have the feeling that for us also the collectiveness is present, it's kind of a manifestation of the collective with all kind of this double size or double height space, this multipurpose room that is present from the street or suddenly also kind of this entrance to the park or even the greenhouse. So we were, when we were starting, to design La Borda and thinking how we were, which was our position regarding participation also of the user and in that moment of course we were looking at Giancarlo De Carlo, Kroll, Frioto. It was to understand these different levels of participation, also kind of how we can also kind of build this process and in that moment the ownership was really important because it was a project based on collective ownership. And the right of use one flat in a specific moment of your life, but not maybe all the entire life. So we were imagining that the project is not a glove for a person, and we were following more the idea of a Habraken of a support and infill, and this idea of the infrastructure... Can you say that one again? Habraken? Habraken. Jean Habraken. Oh, okay. And the theory of the supports. Oh, can you expand on that? Well, basically it was the idea that the project has the main infrastructure, which he called the support, and then the infills, which it was the parts of the building that can change and adapt to the specific user. So it was kind of a matter of establishing rules. And this was something that for us was having more sense, the idea that basically you were defining this idea of a community infrastructure. that then users can live in different ways from the individual perspective, but also from the collective perspective, because the needs of the community will change from the moment one to 75 years. So that's who we were imagining also the participation. That's interesting. So it's a kind of framework for all. kinds of possible occupations. And again, the framework or the infrastructure for the community to unfold within is becoming much more commonplace in terms of what you see in the ambitions of young architects and students. And it's exciting because it is about handing over autonomy in a way and relinquishing a certain amount of control. And I guess I remember as a student, for me, the dawning awareness of this possibility first in the work of people like Lekatan Vassal, where there's a kind of generic framework. And the beauty of the project is really only captured in its entirety once it's been lived in, and once the trappings of daily life and domesticity are on display. So when the balconies are full of stuff is when the project can really be experienced. And it feels the same with Laborde. And you're right, I mean looking across the street at this double height space, thinly veiled by the corrugated polycarbonate, you can see evidence of play and children's toys and people hanging laundry and stuff like that. And so it seems like there's a kind of give and take even formally because To understand the project as complete is to see it fully used or fully occupied as opposed to a pristine, sterile object. But at the same time, I get the feeling that it's never actually really complete. There's some really beautiful proposals for future works to the building I wondered if we could talk more about. And one is this idea of elderly care in the building. So there's a space for a mezzanine. basically in this double height area. What happens there in the future? I think that probably following this idea of the kind of the main infrastructure, the support and all this idea of the infill, basically I think that part of those kind of common areas and common needs that will be kind of in a way ended or continued building being built will be will be will be that and i think that basically we arrive to this idea of different phases of construction because budget restriction because economy but suddenly we realize also how powerful it is in the sense that basically if you define unfinished building then the user has also the control to intervene and this was something important for us because at the end if you are you are living there and realize that your needs are not fulfilled and not kind of there you have the capacity to understand which are the rules to to use it to intervene so this was something that was allowing to reduce the initial budget but was opening the door to the To the change and adaptation, so this idea of deep adaptation also that we are thinking now in the cities about also kind of environmental or the reduction of construction. So if the buildings are open to this transformation maybe are also kind of making the life of it longer. So in a way was opening the idea of a sense of belonging and adaptation through through the design and through something it was really pragmatic so we had an enough budget and right now this was more present in the common areas as we saw in the visit basically the first step was finishing the kitchen and dining room then we are also organizing the storage space the laundry and the last step it's also this care space in the building which also basically it's interesting because right now people it's younger So I would say that the oldest is around 65, 68 years old. They are totally autonomous. So also there will be future needs. So this space will be ended when all those people maybe need certain support of caring and certain kind of, yeah, exactly. Well, this is part of that, how through the life of the users, even the life of the building will kind of change and adapt. I wonder if we could talk now about the genesis of L'école as a practice, as a cooperative. I heard you speak in a lecture explaining that there are three students at the University who are looking at sense and projects in sense. and this is the area of the city of Barcelona we're in right now, which has a history of cooperative movements. But was the genesis really in these early student projects, and how did it move from a group of three to a group of 13? co-founders? Well, in fact it was a group of almost probably ten students who were renting a space in Poblasek, another area. And suddenly another group of students, they wanted also to kind of join. So basically in around 2008, 2009, in the last stages of the university, we rented as a student a space and it was around 21 people. In that moment, it was also in the middle... So in the School of Barcelona, we're really kind of canonical, more conservative, really envisioning the idea of the Barcelona from the Olympics and the 90s. And suddenly it was kind of a crisis that was there, with a kind of old, or I would say kind of outdated model of understanding architecture and the role. And in that moment, it was beginning when we had to... to do the final project, like the final thesis. And in that moment, from this kind of rented space, this space of working together, because we didn't have workshops or places to work together in the university. So basically from that space, based on SANS, we started to imagine if we could develop projects, the final project linked to the surrounding. And we were also applying to a... kind of a new jury in the university that was accepting. these real projects to be the thesis project. So, and this was the opportunity to three of the members start to work in Can Valllló, but also, for example, Carles, another one to work in Lleota Tsencenca, which it was this project from H Architects right now. And like all the, almost all, shoes spaces in the neighbourhood or in the other neighbourhoods linked to where they were from. So, but basically, kind of conflicts or a species of opportunity in the city were to develop the the thesis or the final project and three of them uh lali arnau and paul choose campbell law as a site and this was the beginning of the involvement of of all the group in the in the claims the histories and also the beginning of the recovery of campbell law but in a way it was One of the many projects in the surrounding where we were involved in that moment as students and was the entrance to understand more about the site, the histories, the cooperative genealogies. Can we go try some of those cooperative genealogies now and how they've influenced the thinking of Lacal? Totally. I think that we basically, for us the neighborhood was a school. So in that moment where we We're kind of thinking that it was obsolete, this model of the role of the architect, this model of the city or the management of it and the transformation. The capacity to understand more about all those genealogies was essential. So basically the values of cooperativism linked to the roots in the territory, the co-responsibility, the horizontality. Values from sustainability in a broader perspective, environmental or even social sustainability, were values of cooperativism. So when we were starting to imagine how we can organise ourselves as an office, because we were many people and also with these kind of common values, the architectural or the cooperative form was something that we in a way kind of took from the neighbourhood. And in the same time, There were sociologists, anthropologists, other kind of disciplines and people important for us researching about these genealogies. And it was a moment of crisis, so it was a project from our neighbours downstairs, which was called the Cooperative Neighbourhood. And it was in a moment where the welfare state was dismantled with all the kind of the policies in Spain during the crisis. The idea to solve collectively common needs through cooperative structures was present and it was part of those research. So the idea that we could also imagine cooperative models in the transformation of the city, in the management of the resources, in the provision of housing, or also in a work environment as Lacolle, was something that was kind of really influential for us. And how does it work in practice that An architectural office is run as a cooperative because in my experience having worked in practice as well, there are inherent hierarchies traditionally. There are directors, associates, project architects, intern architects or architectural assistants as they call them in the UK and there's an inherent hierarchy. experience, of ability, and at the same time there is of course more to learn from younger members. So I'm just wondering how does a architectural practice function if the power structure is lateral or is there some there must be some kind of hierarchy built in how does it work yeah well basically I think that suddenly also all change because we were this group of students that suddenly 14 members co-founded like all 10 years ago so basically it's different when you start a couple and then or one or two architects and suddenly you start kind of having more more people and suddenly there is kind of a difference of information of control of power as you mentioned but suddenly in our case we start kind of all 14 in kind of in in the same moment of course the involvement uh and also the work was kind of uh we were kind of not working suddenly 14 members but the idea that you are starting from a same moment you cannot have this typical division of responsibilities of work so suddenly you have to organize reproductive and productive work in another way And also this was making visible that suddenly you don't have a person that is developing all the management work. Or even this category is about which is kind of the different levels of responsibility or why drawing or doing a model is less important than being in a meeting with collaborators. I don't know. So in a certain moment we were kind of understanding the value of any of the works in an office and we were trying to organize it in a cross-sectional way so all the members are involved in different stages. So this was something that it was the way we started because the condition and it was making us all the time thinking about when when you are aware about economy in the studio you realize about also how a detail it's embeds the economy of the construction about but also the economy of the studio you cannot be developing i don't know 100 hours to or or a certain number of models because you cannot sustain it And I think that this vision about starting from the beginning, being aware of which amount of work we are able to do to have a decent salary. So I think it was kind of a connection between these two worlds about how to sustain this professional working structure in parallel to the production of the architecture that I think that was giving us. many new approaches to even to the design and in terms of the kind of the practicalities we were of course we could not be all involved in all the stages so the providing us spaces of decision or collective discussion so the idea of workshops was really important so a couple of days per week we had assemblies to discuss about the management or kind of the entrance of new projects or any who will be lecturing in a place or another one, but also another space during the week is the view of the workshop, where a team, a member, was presenting a project or an initiative in different stages, and we could all kind of define the guidelines in a way. So we are suddenly 13, 11, 10, 8 minds. and with different perspectives, backgrounds, interests, discussing on a project. And this is the moment where we feel that all the members are taking part of it. And I would say that the last comment about that is also this idea of transfer of knowledge. When you have a specific power structure, there is a people who is kind of having more and more information or knowledge. So of course the idea of how we are rotating about all the different roles. Co-workers provide the spaces of transfer knowledge and all these are mechanisms that we were just kind of trying to implement through time. So I think that our structure and way of organizing are being changing and it's really organic. Adapting to the different needs and the different moments of the collective or the cooperative, I think had not been the same structure and way of operating, I would say, 12 months. So we are always kind of... Learning by doing things, not from architecture but also from our way of organizing in the studio. Speaking of the transfer of knowledge, you seem to have always been at the interface of the office and the public, in terms of relaying the work and ideas of the practice of the collective or the cooperative to a wider audience. And it's necessary to have a spokesperson. It's necessary to have a singular voice. Communicate. You're hesitant. But I think if we were to have all... the members of the collective in the room right now. This conversation would be very different and it would probably be much longer and discordant. So can you talk more about what it means to be a spokesperson for the cooperative and how all of this kind of multiplicity gets filtered into the voice of one person? I think it's a really important point and I really think that this was something that that at the beginning a couple of colleagues, Carlos and Eliseo for example, were the ones that were really present as a voice from La Col and they were two men. In a certain moment the woman we were realizing constantly here in the space that sometimes we were not aware how kind of social construct even social dynamics were also affecting us internally so sometimes how we were feeling not prepared enough to let a project. or not prepared enough to be kind of one of the voices. In a certain moment it was important for us to give different perspectives and voices outside. And it was also a moment where we were finishing La Borda and also I was one of the persons being more involved in the project. So I think that there is certain choreographies of moments where based on the projects, on the topics and even the spaces, if it's more academic or more practical. So I would say that we have been changing who is participating and who is explaining. And we are also currently in a moment where also I think that I've been really present as a voice. And it's important to have a step kind of backwards and also give new voices. So even I'm just trying also right now to invite more people to be in conversations. But of course there is also... even moments, personal moments, people who are not feeling comfortable because of the language or because of... we have been in a moment of many maternity and paternity leave. So I think that it's something just temporary in a way and I think this is beautiful because as you also mentioned if my colleague, if other colleagues will be here the perspective will be different, the strengths, the important points are different. I think it's also that So, I usually, when we start a lecture, I try to say it's one of the voices, one of the, yeah, one perspective that we are always trying to be plural and, but this is difficult and I did same, I think that the richness of Lacolle is that suddenly if Carlos is here, we'll give another perspective, Elisabeth was here and of course in a conversation that would maybe make it longer, more complex. we also have different opinions, contradictions, conflicts, which I think is the beauty of Lacolle and also which makes us more strong. But yes, the voice is something and the face is something that we have, we are aware about that and it's a moment of change maybe. I should have come during one of your assemblies. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, you should learn Catalan. I mean part of Part of the process of these kinds of conversations is to understand the individual as well. And at this point, I want to talk more about your own motivations or personal motivations for being part of this collective. I think where I want to begin in this strand of the discussion is trying to trace back to a moment in your career or your education where your attitude towards architecture shifted because in the public imagination imagination, and I'm sure in the imagination of most people uninitiated in the practice of architecture, it's a very egotistic pursuit. And it is about individual expression. And so I wonder for you if this was the case initially, and if there was some moment of realization of another way of working, or if in fact you always came into the ambition to practice architecture as a collective. endeavor? How did it begin for you? I think that this idea of understanding that we are individuals also is something important. So we never want that kind of this idea of the collective structure could not respect in a way the individual moments and I think it's something really beautiful at the end. Like all it's kind of a platform where the individual interests are also kind of shaping the collective. kind of path in a way. And this is something that even with the kind of work that we are realizing right now, because it goes from participation, mis-linked to sociology, to right now understanding all the spaces of operation in the construction realm, because Laura, for example, has been studying and working in terms of project management, construction management. For us it's really powerful how this can be a tool for us in terms of the design. So and also for example, cooperative housing has been one important line or right now energy transition and all this it's linked to understanding urban challenges and also where we think that we have kind of a major role but also based on individual needs which are always changing and I think that this is something that yeah. It gives motivation because constantly we are understanding that we can imagine spaces, frameworks of work, different based on individual needs. I think that personally when we were involved in the process of La Borda and we were realizing about the politics of the domestic realm in La Borda from the gender perspective in a housing project and also of course the environmental manifestation in terms of the project, the construction. So I think that in this tension between the feminist approach in the sustainable in the domestic and right now we are like evolving in the urban scale and i was working in a feminist cooperative a cooperative which is led by a group of women lesbian lgbt plus and they edited in for during the process taking care about the moments of participation design also about how the spaces of the co-op but also The way that we're also facing the construction, even the relation with the surrounding, understanding that we can even kind of expand this feminist approach, not from the architecture, but also in kind of the urban scale or the architectural production, was for me kind of, yeah, really kind of a discovery, not a discovery, but being aware that we have to, in a way, look at it from more perspective. from another kind of point of view. And I think that this is something that I am interested in, this idea of the transition from the design to the management of resources in the urban realm, and this idea of energy transition or feminist approaches. Well, it's where I'm just right now really kind of thinking about noise. There's a project that La Colle have worked on or are working on. In collaboration with the feminist group, it's a housing project for women. Is this the one you're talking about? Yeah, exactly. And what's it called? La Morada. La Morada. Exactly. And looking at the plan for this project, there is something... different going on here slightly i mean it's smaller smaller than the others yeah exactly um but there's um there's more um idiosyncrasy happening in the plan especially in the in the catwalk or the the gallery which has a distinct geometry to it that is different from the more generic or anonymizing balconies of other projects so there's something to me something funny happening there purely aesthetically but I just wonder because this project seems important to you on a kind of social level how that's translating possibly to aesthetic decisions that are being made. Yeah, it's important. So I think precisely in the process of La Murada, it was in one hand important to let them be more aware about the instrumentality of a space historically, to distribute the roles about reproductive labour at home, for example, and also, of course, explain narrative and generalisation. genealogies, about the approaches of feminist architecture, of feminist scholars and women that were kind of trying to explain all that. And the presence of the kitchen, for example, as a space that we were like, allocating it in the middle. And there's a transition from the public to the common, to this kind of the most important place at home, which in that sense was the kitchen, but also because the idea of the own room. It was something and the privacy and the intimacy that they wanted for also from their bodies but also from kind of even their sexual approach it was important so the idea to give a lot of intimacy as kind of the exterior level of the project and also this allocation of the kitchen in the middle was something important and suddenly it was the corridor and when we were also designing they were also talking a lot about the norm and also how architecture can be really normative and in that sense the idea of just kind of this liberation of giving certain kind of shapes, forms, aesthetics was really really important from all the process even right now with the color of the facade or the like the the appearance to the to the neighborhood of the project and it was totally like this and they were constantly the discussions with them they were kind of affloring or letting us know about all this kind of micro politics in any decision and I would say that exactly like the different forms of the of the inner courtyard the the color of The way that we define the facade, because suddenly, in a certain moment, we're trying to imagine a really kind of neutral, which is a word that they hated also, no? Kind of neutral facade. And it was a moment to say, look, look how is the neighborhood, it's a really popular neighborhood, being built through self-construction with migrant workers. They are arriving there, they are really aware to not gentrify, to be understanding the also kind of the existing networks, but even with the presence of the building and understanding that they will they want to be really in touch with all those precedents and putting the value on that it's a way that we are also understanding the role of the facade how we kind of showing the projects or relating the project with certain architecture or the precedents or the current and contemporary so i would say that constantly there is all these kind of decisions but sometimes maybe are looking as aesthetics and for them are really political I mean, just looking at that balcony in Plan, I was thinking to myself, that is a queer balcony. But at the same time, there's a lot of very florid, very outlandish architecture in the city, historically as well, to draw from. And just moving through Barcelona with students over the past few days and looking at people like Gaudi and Jujol, or even Flores Prats. Um... There's an overwhelming embrace of the expressivity of architecture. And I'm interested how you relate to this history, given this, up until this certain moment, this interest in neutrality in the work you're doing. I think it's difficult for me to give an answer to that question, because constantly we are discussing about aesthetics or beauty. if it's something that which is maybe unnecessary. So this idea that we are constantly fighting with budget, trying to arrive to the which is absolutely necessary, which is the basis. And this is something that we understand that basically because we if we take all the layerings, suddenly there is kind of the pure architecture it's there. and we are linking always through something pragmatic as I was saying as such an economy. So when we are imagining certain kind of ornamentation, decoration or something that maybe is more aesthetic, we think that we are excessive on that and we are critical about that. And well it's something that probably each of the members will have a different opinion, some of them feel more or less comfortable. It was a moment where a critical critic was saying that Labordeux is ugly and this idea of ugliness or beauty was something that we really enjoyed that critique. We were thinking we are fine having done an ugly building and I think that sometimes we feel more comfortable being in comparison with when Le Champlain was built without architects. It was this idea of the ugliness and the ugliness of the building. The head of construction, someone who was practical, understanding the techniques, the resources and building, and sometimes one floor plan was used for different kind of plots. And so this idea of homogeneity, or not homogeneity but even genericness, it was something that we were feeling sometimes more comfortable, but maybe because a lack of a specific narrative through aesthetics. So you mentioned the Shambla. Can you talk more for listeners who won't be familiar with what that is? Oh, basically, it's like Sardar. So Sardar, this extension, this major extension of the city, which nowadays is the main singularity in a way. So this was a moment where basically kind of the developers were kind of building it, you know, and sometimes linked to speculative reasons also as a way of where the resources and... The colonialism in a way was being present because it was resources being worn in the colonies, being built in the city and in that moment it was two kind of architecture. The ones linked to Gaudí and all those kind of big figures really as a representation of the power in the city but then also this anonymous buildings of housing which were kind of following the same typology linked to resources which the the stones were from Montjuic and it was this like the memories or text where is this description where the materials come from and this idea of the head of the construction was The person in charge of this building, it's something that I would say that we feel more familiar, no? But, yeah, I think it's a current discussion in Lacolle, no? Which is our position regarding all those topics and which kind of aesthetics we are looking for. And if it's a desire or a goal or something that we look for, or sometimes it's basically the outcome of a process of discussing other topics. So I think it's something that we have to address, probably. I think there's still more of this kind of personal genealogy. I'm interested in trying to understand. You talk about this experience working on La Morada with this group of women as being a kind of a moment of discovery for you personally as an architect in terms of this relationship between aesthetics and politics. maybe, or the expressivity of a particular group of users and how that manifests on a facade or in a building form. But I think there is this really formative moment in education. that must have had some kind of role in your decision to initiate or join this collective. And I'm still curious too about what your expectations for architecture were coming into education and how and when they changed. Because I suspect that this way of working and thinking probably wasn't taught, at least initially. So where do you learn that? I think that's a good question. Well, I think that something that is important for me right now is how these different narratives are present in the schools, at least in many of the schools. And also how important it is that for us to be more present in the school, to realize that there are many ways of practicing architecture. And this was something that when we were studying, it was difficult to see it. So it was a couple of teachers. Zaida Moshi was teaching at the school in that moment. Jose Maria Montaner, they were talking about the politics of architecture. It was over in a seminar called Architecture and Politics. And also Zaida was the first voice that we heard about feminist approach. And I would say that these were a couple of teachers, really influential for us. They are still friends. But... There were few of that. So I would say that for us it was, when we were starting La Borda, this idea of understanding which were the main ideas and which kind of architecture we wanted to look at, which were the reference. It was a process of, in a way, self-learning, in a way. You know, self... Yeah, to try to find that there were many precedents in the way of organizing in the studio, in the way of practicing architecture. that we never heard about them in the school. And I think that it's a pity. It's something that we have to put the value of on all those different voices. I was mentioning Krol, Giancarlo De Carlo, even Sergio Ferro, or many, many even women that were doing a kind of architecture that we, or matrix this cooperative. So something that we are still discovering voices and it's like... Oh my god, why we don't know about them before? And this is something that we have done after. So that's why we talk about the neighborhood as a school or spaces of unlearning. And sometimes we talk about unlearning because we have learned about a specific history written by a specific white man. And this idea of understanding how we can add, complement, redraw it and re... And this is also something that we are still... makes us still understand and think of this... Yeah, our way of operating and our way of working. And yeah, there were not... there were not a moment of it in the school. I think it was definitely after, after it. And that's why we are constantly understanding our practice. Each project is an opportunity of a discovery in that sense. We are not involved in academia in a formal way. Any of the members of the call, for example, they are doing a PhD or we are teaching, but we are teaching sometimes in a... of part of a specific courses but not with our agenda. We are not having a course with our agenda. So each project it's the space of opportunity of that and it's been the way that we have been doing it. I don't know if it's correct or incorrect. The last question has to do with this topic of evolution. It's a question about aging. When we visited Laborda You were talking about just how much energy it took to achieve that project, which was unprecedented at the time and I think still is in terms of being the tallest cross laminated timber building in the city, being the first cooperative. housing project developed on public land. I mean it was a real Herculean feat. How do you sustain that energy and that ambition and I guess that naivete? as well in a practice as the practice ages? Well, I think it's the idea of aging or evolving is something that it's been really always really linked to Lacan. I would say that we are so many people that there is always kind of new energies. I think it's always, I've said it like we are in a certain kind of cycles of dynamics where There is always something that someone that right now it's maybe in a moment of just kind of resting to bring kind of new energy you know and I think that even this idea of evolution it's also allowing us to think how Lacolle it's a platform for the people who founded Lacolle but also for people who are starting to work here no and I think one of the challenges for us it's how the originality and all the discussions that we had as co-founders, we can expand it in the new people who are involved as workers, as collaborators. So this idea of evolving the structures and also the projects is something that gives constantly new... So we are always facing new questions and new challenges. But... Yeah, I think it's how we are facing it. Yeah, it was a bit difficult for me to question. It's a difficult question. I don't think I really formulated it coherently. But maybe there's a question of when you look at most practices, they start off with very ambitious, sometimes totally outlandish. work that seems almost impossible and is only realized on the basis of this insane naive ambition and energy that is not sustainable and over time things become more conservative I think not politically or not socially but just in terms of saving energy okay yeah I guess there's a question about resisting the the conservatism that corresponds with aging and at the same time how you sustain The radicality that's inherent to the position of youth. Because I feel like this shared accommodation, all these students living together... in that moment must have been quite significant. And yet it's not the kind of conditions that older people would ever find themselves in. And so you kind of need this cooperative environment. in order to foment these radical ideas. But at some point, you leave that environment. So how do you sustain that attitude despite growing older? Yeah. I think this idea of the attitude that we were thinking with the manifesto, it's interesting because one day per year, we call it like La Colt's Day, it's a day where we left the office and we try to visit even... construction side that we are all but also reference of architecture and people and the last the last year we'll visit Kiko Rius who did a fantastic housing building in the 70s and also then Alfonso Sol de Vila so both of them were around 80s and they did two masterpieces not really known but when we were there it was like oh my god they are so young in the way that they are thinking and it's precisely This idea of radicality in the ideas that they had is something that we have really present. We can continue thinking constantly, like challenging the frameworks and not... This idea of even uncomfortability, like to challenge comfort in many senses, no? And I think that it's something that, because we are so many people, we have always this idea of contradictions. embedded in the EDN of LACOL. So there is no assembly where someone suddenly sets a conflict in a way. For me, we constantly, I don't know, thinking about the labor conditions, it's something that addresses different voices and it's constantly one person in the assembly that has a specific need. and just kind of bombs the environment. So well, this is something that we are always trying to have in mind. And I would say that the collective is the answer. So never we are always in the same mood, we are always in the same personal moment, in the same interest. And precisely this is allowing us to constantly readdress the questions that we are having on the table. But definitely this idea of the attitude, it was something even with Lacaton Basal. I remember being in La Borda and Jean-Philippe said, when we were doing the Palais de Tokyo, the idea of challenging the fire regulations and testing it because it was insane what they were asking us. And suddenly we were in La Borda and he said, of course there are similarities, but for me the main similarity is this attitude. facing, challenging ownership, challenging the party regulation, challenging many things. So, well, this is something that we are caring about it, no? And we will always try to give us those spaces of a stop, gather together and thinking which is the next step, no? Well, this is... And yeah, the last questions were difficult, sorry, sorry about that. No, that was great. Cristina, thank you again so much for your time. No. for you. You've been listening to Scaffold. If you didn't catch all the references Christina mentioned, including Francisco Luis and Alphonse Soldavila, they're all listed in the show notes of this episode. And some of the projects will be posted on the podcast's Instagram feed as well. Scaffold is an Architecture Foundation production. I'm Matthew Blunderfield, and I make this show. The theme music is composed and performed by Luke Blair. Subscribe to Scaffold on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, and follow the show on Twitter and Instagram at scaffold underscore podcast. If you like the show, spread the word, and leave a rating on iTunes while you're at it. Thanks to Christina Gamboa. Special thanks this week to Guillermo Fernandez Abascal. Thanks as always to Skandalyn. And thanks to you for listening. I'll see you next time. As a mom, every day is an adventure, but when my toddler Luke was diagnosed with a brain tumor, we faced our biggest challenge. I'm Greta, and we chose Northwestern Medicine Proton Center. Proton therapy uses precise doses of radiation to minimize exposure to surrounding healthy tissue with the goal of reducing side effects. 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Late last month, February 2024, I was in Barcelona with my teaching partner, Kathy Hawley, and our students from the RCA, visiting projects that, in different ways, related to the theme of our studio this year, which is all about excess, or to borrow a phrase from the anthropologist Anna Singh, a new art of living on a damaged planet. Barcelona is full of architectural exuberance. Think Gaudi and Jujol, Enric Marais and Flores Prats, all of them and many more designing buildings that are florid and idiosyncratic, but interestingly, by often repurposing and reorganizing existing materials and building elements.

offering an aesthetic of abundance that could conceivably persist in times of profound precarity. On the other hand, there are practices in Barcelona that have a much more ambivalent relationship to the excesses of form and style, prioritizing instead a social richness that can unfold within buildings that are often necessarily more uniform and standardized. A project of this kind we visited was the cooperative housing scheme La Borda, built in 2018, by the practice Lacal.

Lacal emerged in Barcelona following the 2008 financial crisis, comprised of tens of students who were all living together in a district of the city called Sants. Faced with dire job prospects and galvanized by their research into Sants' history of workers' cooperative movements, the students began addressing common needs through cooperative structures in the most comprehensive sense, whether that be in the management of energy, the procurement and development of land, or indeed in the establishment of a cooperative architecture practice. Christina Gamboa, a member of LaCalle, gave us a tour of La Borda, and I met with her a few days later at LaCalle's office, itself home to a range of cooperative organizations, to learn more about La Borda and the practice that designed it.

And now, my interview with Christina Gamboa. I think it's something I've been noticing in students. A reluctance to design anymore and a kind of caution around this idea of authorship. To assume too much control over a project is now kind of taboo and I mean this is a question very close to the call.

Which itself is an architectural collective and works with collectives to make collective work. And maybe we could start there with this question of autonomy. I mean we're kind of jumping...

right into things, but to me it's somehow the most crucial question. How as a collective do you find autonomy when there are so many people involved in making the work? Yeah, well I think autonomy is a word that for us connects in many levels, because in for us, La Col was a space of autonomy in a context of crisis and also like working for people without conditions etc etc. And at the same time the project that we are proposing, we are working with La Borda, it's a space where the users or the inhabitants kind of have the autonomy to control the environment, housing environment.

So in terms of the design I think that well the space of autonomy for us it's really linked. to the moments of design in a way. I think that despite we are working with, in a collective way, in many levels, we like to understood as inputs, as kind of information and conditions or restrictions that you are to the design. But in the moment where we are kind of understanding how this game became an architectural kind of form, object, building, we feel that we have that autonomy, which is based on also the trust with between all the members and because at the end the environmental consultancy or the municipality or even the user are not that involved in the moment where we are here in a workshop all the members discussing about the project so And it's so clear, especially looking at the project we visited, La Borda, there is a formal autonomy. There's a very reduced material palette and a kind of monolithic form.

It's mostly corrugated polycarbonate. carbonate and timber and concrete on the base and you have these strip windows which remind me a bit of modernist housing corbusier and then this roof this other world on the roof which is is for conviviality, for laundry. It's also a garden or a greenhouse. So there's this real singular vision of the building form, and yet a very collective, what you've referred to as co-production of the project itself.

And just, I think it's helpful for a moment for me and for listeners to put this in contrast with other forms of co-production or other forms of co-design. And when we... When we toured the building, you brought up the designer or the architect Lucien Kroll.

You also mentioned Frei Otto and his Ockerhaus project in Berlin. To me, these are really in opposition in a way, possibly, we could debate, to what Laborda is doing. Could you talk a bit more about these other forms of collective design and the conscious decision to move away from this? the collective appearance into something more homogenous or singular.

Yeah, I have the feeling that for us also the collectiveness is present, it's kind of a manifestation of the collective with all kind of this double size or double height space, this multipurpose room that is present from the street or suddenly also kind of this entrance to the park or even the greenhouse. So we were, when we were starting, to design La Borda and thinking how we were, which was our position regarding participation also of the user and in that moment of course we were looking at Giancarlo De Carlo, Kroll, Frioto. It was to understand these different levels of participation, also kind of how we can also kind of build this process and in that moment the ownership was really important because it was a project based on collective ownership.

And the right of use one flat in a specific moment of your life, but not maybe all the entire life. So we were imagining that the project is not a glove for a person, and we were following more the idea of a Habraken of a support and infill, and this idea of the infrastructure... Can you say that one again? Habraken? Habraken.

Jean Habraken. Oh, okay. And the theory of the supports. Oh, can you expand on that?

Well, basically it was the idea that the project has the main infrastructure, which he called the support, and then the infills, which it was the parts of the building that can change and adapt to the specific user. So it was kind of a matter of establishing rules. And this was something that for us was having more sense, the idea that basically you were defining this idea of a community infrastructure. that then users can live in different ways from the individual perspective, but also from the collective perspective, because the needs of the community will change from the moment one to 75 years. So that's who we were imagining also the participation.

That's interesting. So it's a kind of framework for all. kinds of possible occupations. And again, the framework or the infrastructure for the community to unfold within is becoming much more commonplace in terms of what you see in the ambitions of young architects and students.

And it's exciting because it is about handing over autonomy in a way and relinquishing a certain amount of control. And I guess I remember as a student, for me, the dawning awareness of this possibility first in the work of people like Lekatan Vassal, where there's a kind of generic framework. And the beauty of the project is really only captured in its entirety once it's been lived in, and once the trappings of daily life and domesticity are on display.

So when the balconies are full of stuff is when the project can really be experienced. And it feels the same with Laborde. And you're right, I mean looking across the street at this double height space, thinly veiled by the corrugated polycarbonate, you can see evidence of play and children's toys and people hanging laundry and stuff like that. And so it seems like there's a kind of give and take even formally because To understand the project as complete is to see it fully used or fully occupied as opposed to a pristine, sterile object.

But at the same time, I get the feeling that it's never actually really complete. There's some really beautiful proposals for future works to the building I wondered if we could talk more about. And one is this idea of elderly care in the building.

So there's a space for a mezzanine. basically in this double height area. What happens there in the future? I think that probably following this idea of the kind of the main infrastructure, the support and all this idea of the infill, basically I think that part of those kind of common areas and common needs that will be kind of in a way ended or continued building being built will be will be will be that and i think that basically we arrive to this idea of different phases of construction because budget restriction because economy but suddenly we realize also how powerful it is in the sense that basically if you define unfinished building then the user has also the control to intervene and this was something important for us because at the end if you are you are living there and realize that your needs are not fulfilled and not kind of there you have the capacity to understand which are the rules to to use it to intervene so this was something that was allowing to reduce the initial budget but was opening the door to the To the change and adaptation, so this idea of deep adaptation also that we are thinking now in the cities about also kind of environmental or the reduction of construction.

So if the buildings are open to this transformation maybe are also kind of making the life of it longer. So in a way was opening the idea of a sense of belonging and adaptation through through the design and through something it was really pragmatic so we had an enough budget and right now this was more present in the common areas as we saw in the visit basically the first step was finishing the kitchen and dining room then we are also organizing the storage space the laundry and the last step it's also this care space in the building which also basically it's interesting because right now people it's younger So I would say that the oldest is around 65, 68 years old. They are totally autonomous.

So also there will be future needs. So this space will be ended when all those people maybe need certain support of caring and certain kind of, yeah, exactly. Well, this is part of that, how through the life of the users, even the life of the building will kind of change and adapt. I wonder if we could talk now about the genesis of L'école as a practice, as a cooperative.

I heard you speak in a lecture explaining that there are three students at the University who are looking at sense and projects in sense. and this is the area of the city of Barcelona we're in right now, which has a history of cooperative movements. But was the genesis really in these early student projects, and how did it move from a group of three to a group of 13?

co-founders? Well, in fact it was a group of almost probably ten students who were renting a space in Poblasek, another area. And suddenly another group of students, they wanted also to kind of join.

So basically in around 2008, 2009, in the last stages of the university, we rented as a student a space and it was around 21 people. In that moment, it was also in the middle... So in the School of Barcelona, we're really kind of canonical, more conservative, really envisioning the idea of the Barcelona from the Olympics and the 90s.

And suddenly it was kind of a crisis that was there, with a kind of old, or I would say kind of outdated model of understanding architecture and the role. And in that moment, it was beginning when we had to... to do the final project, like the final thesis.

And in that moment, from this kind of rented space, this space of working together, because we didn't have workshops or places to work together in the university. So basically from that space, based on SANS, we started to imagine if we could develop projects, the final project linked to the surrounding. And we were also applying to a...

kind of a new jury in the university that was accepting. these real projects to be the thesis project. So, and this was the opportunity to three of the members start to work in Can Valllló, but also, for example, Carles, another one to work in Lleota Tsencenca, which it was this project from H Architects right now.

And like all the, almost all, shoes spaces in the neighbourhood or in the other neighbourhoods linked to where they were from. So, but basically, kind of conflicts or a species of opportunity in the city were to develop the the thesis or the final project and three of them uh lali arnau and paul choose campbell law as a site and this was the beginning of the involvement of of all the group in the in the claims the histories and also the beginning of the recovery of campbell law but in a way it was One of the many projects in the surrounding where we were involved in that moment as students and was the entrance to understand more about the site, the histories, the cooperative genealogies. Can we go try some of those cooperative genealogies now and how they've influenced the thinking of Lacal?

Totally. I think that we basically, for us the neighborhood was a school. So in that moment where we We're kind of thinking that it was obsolete, this model of the role of the architect, this model of the city or the management of it and the transformation.

The capacity to understand more about all those genealogies was essential. So basically the values of cooperativism linked to the roots in the territory, the co-responsibility, the horizontality. Values from sustainability in a broader perspective, environmental or even social sustainability, were values of cooperativism.

So when we were starting to imagine how we can organise ourselves as an office, because we were many people and also with these kind of common values, the architectural or the cooperative form was something that we in a way kind of took from the neighbourhood. And in the same time, There were sociologists, anthropologists, other kind of disciplines and people important for us researching about these genealogies. And it was a moment of crisis, so it was a project from our neighbours downstairs, which was called the Cooperative Neighbourhood. And it was in a moment where the welfare state was dismantled with all the kind of the policies in Spain during the crisis.

The idea to solve collectively common needs through cooperative structures was present and it was part of those research. So the idea that we could also imagine cooperative models in the transformation of the city, in the management of the resources, in the provision of housing, or also in a work environment as Lacolle, was something that was kind of really influential for us. And how does it work in practice that An architectural office is run as a cooperative because in my experience having worked in practice as well, there are inherent hierarchies traditionally. There are directors, associates, project architects, intern architects or architectural assistants as they call them in the UK and there's an inherent hierarchy. experience, of ability, and at the same time there is of course more to learn from younger members.

So I'm just wondering how does a architectural practice function if the power structure is lateral or is there some there must be some kind of hierarchy built in how does it work yeah well basically I think that suddenly also all change because we were this group of students that suddenly 14 members co-founded like all 10 years ago so basically it's different when you start a couple and then or one or two architects and suddenly you start kind of having more more people and suddenly there is kind of a difference of information of control of power as you mentioned but suddenly in our case we start kind of all 14 in kind of in in the same moment of course the involvement uh and also the work was kind of uh we were kind of not working suddenly 14 members but the idea that you are starting from a same moment you cannot have this typical division of responsibilities of work so suddenly you have to organize reproductive and productive work in another way And also this was making visible that suddenly you don't have a person that is developing all the management work. Or even this category is about which is kind of the different levels of responsibility or why drawing or doing a model is less important than being in a meeting with collaborators. I don't know.

So in a certain moment we were kind of understanding the value of any of the works in an office and we were trying to organize it in a cross-sectional way so all the members are involved in different stages. So this was something that it was the way we started because the condition and it was making us all the time thinking about when when you are aware about economy in the studio you realize about also how a detail it's embeds the economy of the construction about but also the economy of the studio you cannot be developing i don't know 100 hours to or or a certain number of models because you cannot sustain it And I think that this vision about starting from the beginning, being aware of which amount of work we are able to do to have a decent salary. So I think it was kind of a connection between these two worlds about how to sustain this professional working structure in parallel to the production of the architecture that I think that was giving us. many new approaches to even to the design and in terms of the kind of the practicalities we were of course we could not be all involved in all the stages so the providing us spaces of decision or collective discussion so the idea of workshops was really important so a couple of days per week we had assemblies to discuss about the management or kind of the entrance of new projects or any who will be lecturing in a place or another one, but also another space during the week is the view of the workshop, where a team, a member, was presenting a project or an initiative in different stages, and we could all kind of define the guidelines in a way. So we are suddenly 13, 11, 10, 8 minds.

and with different perspectives, backgrounds, interests, discussing on a project. And this is the moment where we feel that all the members are taking part of it. And I would say that the last comment about that is also this idea of transfer of knowledge.

When you have a specific power structure, there is a people who is kind of having more and more information or knowledge. So of course the idea of how we are rotating about all the different roles. Co-workers provide the spaces of transfer knowledge and all these are mechanisms that we were just kind of trying to implement through time. So I think that our structure and way of organizing are being changing and it's really organic. Adapting to the different needs and the different moments of the collective or the cooperative, I think had not been the same structure and way of operating, I would say, 12 months.

So we are always kind of... Learning by doing things, not from architecture but also from our way of organizing in the studio. Speaking of the transfer of knowledge, you seem to have always been at the interface of the office and the public, in terms of relaying the work and ideas of the practice of the collective or the cooperative to a wider audience. And it's necessary to have a spokesperson.

It's necessary to have a singular voice. Communicate. You're hesitant. But I think if we were to have all... the members of the collective in the room right now.

This conversation would be very different and it would probably be much longer and discordant. So can you talk more about what it means to be a spokesperson for the cooperative and how all of this kind of multiplicity gets filtered into the voice of one person? I think it's a really important point and I really think that this was something that that at the beginning a couple of colleagues, Carlos and Eliseo for example, were the ones that were really present as a voice from La Col and they were two men.

In a certain moment the woman we were realizing constantly here in the space that sometimes we were not aware how kind of social construct even social dynamics were also affecting us internally so sometimes how we were feeling not prepared enough to let a project. or not prepared enough to be kind of one of the voices. In a certain moment it was important for us to give different perspectives and voices outside. And it was also a moment where we were finishing La Borda and also I was one of the persons being more involved in the project. So I think that there is certain choreographies of moments where based on the projects, on the topics and even the spaces, if it's more academic or more practical.

So I would say that we have been changing who is participating and who is explaining. And we are also currently in a moment where also I think that I've been really present as a voice. And it's important to have a step kind of backwards and also give new voices.

So even I'm just trying also right now to invite more people to be in conversations. But of course there is also... even moments, personal moments, people who are not feeling comfortable because of the language or because of...

we have been in a moment of many maternity and paternity leave. So I think that it's something just temporary in a way and I think this is beautiful because as you also mentioned if my colleague, if other colleagues will be here the perspective will be different, the strengths, the important points are different. I think it's also that So, I usually, when we start a lecture, I try to say it's one of the voices, one of the, yeah, one perspective that we are always trying to be plural and, but this is difficult and I did same, I think that the richness of Lacolle is that suddenly if Carlos is here, we'll give another perspective, Elisabeth was here and of course in a conversation that would maybe make it longer, more complex. we also have different opinions, contradictions, conflicts, which I think is the beauty of Lacolle and also which makes us more strong.

But yes, the voice is something and the face is something that we have, we are aware about that and it's a moment of change maybe. I should have come during one of your assemblies. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, you should learn Catalan. I mean part of Part of the process of these kinds of conversations is to understand the individual as well.

And at this point, I want to talk more about your own motivations or personal motivations for being part of this collective. I think where I want to begin in this strand of the discussion is trying to trace back to a moment in your career or your education where your attitude towards architecture shifted because in the public imagination imagination, and I'm sure in the imagination of most people uninitiated in the practice of architecture, it's a very egotistic pursuit. And it is about individual expression.

And so I wonder for you if this was the case initially, and if there was some moment of realization of another way of working, or if in fact you always came into the ambition to practice architecture as a collective. endeavor? How did it begin for you? I think that this idea of understanding that we are individuals also is something important.

So we never want that kind of this idea of the collective structure could not respect in a way the individual moments and I think it's something really beautiful at the end. Like all it's kind of a platform where the individual interests are also kind of shaping the collective. kind of path in a way. And this is something that even with the kind of work that we are realizing right now, because it goes from participation, mis-linked to sociology, to right now understanding all the spaces of operation in the construction realm, because Laura, for example, has been studying and working in terms of project management, construction management.

For us it's really powerful how this can be a tool for us in terms of the design. So and also for example, cooperative housing has been one important line or right now energy transition and all this it's linked to understanding urban challenges and also where we think that we have kind of a major role but also based on individual needs which are always changing and I think that this is something that yeah. It gives motivation because constantly we are understanding that we can imagine spaces, frameworks of work, different based on individual needs.

I think that personally when we were involved in the process of La Borda and we were realizing about the politics of the domestic realm in La Borda from the gender perspective in a housing project and also of course the environmental manifestation in terms of the project, the construction. So I think that in this tension between the feminist approach in the sustainable in the domestic and right now we are like evolving in the urban scale and i was working in a feminist cooperative a cooperative which is led by a group of women lesbian lgbt plus and they edited in for during the process taking care about the moments of participation design also about how the spaces of the co-op but also The way that we're also facing the construction, even the relation with the surrounding, understanding that we can even kind of expand this feminist approach, not from the architecture, but also in kind of the urban scale or the architectural production, was for me kind of, yeah, really kind of a discovery, not a discovery, but being aware that we have to, in a way, look at it from more perspective. from another kind of point of view. And I think that this is something that I am interested in, this idea of the transition from the design to the management of resources in the urban realm, and this idea of energy transition or feminist approaches. Well, it's where I'm just right now really kind of thinking about noise.

There's a project that La Colle have worked on or are working on. In collaboration with the feminist group, it's a housing project for women. Is this the one you're talking about? Yeah, exactly.

And what's it called? La Morada. La Morada.

Exactly. And looking at the plan for this project, there is something... different going on here slightly i mean it's smaller smaller than the others yeah exactly um but there's um there's more um idiosyncrasy happening in the plan especially in the in the catwalk or the the gallery which has a distinct geometry to it that is different from the more generic or anonymizing balconies of other projects so there's something to me something funny happening there purely aesthetically but I just wonder because this project seems important to you on a kind of social level how that's translating possibly to aesthetic decisions that are being made.

Yeah, it's important. So I think precisely in the process of La Murada, it was in one hand important to let them be more aware about the instrumentality of a space historically, to distribute the roles about reproductive labour at home, for example, and also, of course, explain narrative and generalisation. genealogies, about the approaches of feminist architecture, of feminist scholars and women that were kind of trying to explain all that. And the presence of the kitchen, for example, as a space that we were like, allocating it in the middle.

And there's a transition from the public to the common, to this kind of the most important place at home, which in that sense was the kitchen, but also because the idea of the own room. It was something and the privacy and the intimacy that they wanted for also from their bodies but also from kind of even their sexual approach it was important so the idea to give a lot of intimacy as kind of the exterior level of the project and also this allocation of the kitchen in the middle was something important and suddenly it was the corridor and when we were also designing they were also talking a lot about the norm and also how architecture can be really normative and in that sense the idea of just kind of this liberation of giving certain kind of shapes, forms, aesthetics was really really important from all the process even right now with the color of the facade or the like the the appearance to the to the neighborhood of the project and it was totally like this and they were constantly the discussions with them they were kind of affloring or letting us know about all this kind of micro politics in any decision and I would say that exactly like the different forms of the of the inner courtyard the the color of The way that we define the facade, because suddenly, in a certain moment, we're trying to imagine a really kind of neutral, which is a word that they hated also, no? Kind of neutral facade. And it was a moment to say, look, look how is the neighborhood, it's a really popular neighborhood, being built through self-construction with migrant workers.

They are arriving there, they are really aware to not gentrify, to be understanding the also kind of the existing networks, but even with the presence of the building and understanding that they will they want to be really in touch with all those precedents and putting the value on that it's a way that we are also understanding the role of the facade how we kind of showing the projects or relating the project with certain architecture or the precedents or the current and contemporary so i would say that constantly there is all these kind of decisions but sometimes maybe are looking as aesthetics and for them are really political I mean, just looking at that balcony in Plan, I was thinking to myself, that is a queer balcony. But at the same time, there's a lot of very florid, very outlandish architecture in the city, historically as well, to draw from. And just moving through Barcelona with students over the past few days and looking at people like Gaudi and Jujol, or even Flores Prats. Um...

There's an overwhelming embrace of the expressivity of architecture. And I'm interested how you relate to this history, given this, up until this certain moment, this interest in neutrality in the work you're doing. I think it's difficult for me to give an answer to that question, because constantly we are discussing about aesthetics or beauty. if it's something that which is maybe unnecessary.

So this idea that we are constantly fighting with budget, trying to arrive to the which is absolutely necessary, which is the basis. And this is something that we understand that basically because we if we take all the layerings, suddenly there is kind of the pure architecture it's there. and we are linking always through something pragmatic as I was saying as such an economy.

So when we are imagining certain kind of ornamentation, decoration or something that maybe is more aesthetic, we think that we are excessive on that and we are critical about that. And well it's something that probably each of the members will have a different opinion, some of them feel more or less comfortable. It was a moment where a critical critic was saying that Labordeux is ugly and this idea of ugliness or beauty was something that we really enjoyed that critique.

We were thinking we are fine having done an ugly building and I think that sometimes we feel more comfortable being in comparison with when Le Champlain was built without architects. It was this idea of the ugliness and the ugliness of the building. The head of construction, someone who was practical, understanding the techniques, the resources and building, and sometimes one floor plan was used for different kind of plots.

And so this idea of homogeneity, or not homogeneity but even genericness, it was something that we were feeling sometimes more comfortable, but maybe because a lack of a specific narrative through aesthetics. So you mentioned the Shambla. Can you talk more for listeners who won't be familiar with what that is?

Oh, basically, it's like Sardar. So Sardar, this extension, this major extension of the city, which nowadays is the main singularity in a way. So this was a moment where basically kind of the developers were kind of building it, you know, and sometimes linked to speculative reasons also as a way of where the resources and... The colonialism in a way was being present because it was resources being worn in the colonies, being built in the city and in that moment it was two kind of architecture. The ones linked to Gaudí and all those kind of big figures really as a representation of the power in the city but then also this anonymous buildings of housing which were kind of following the same typology linked to resources which the the stones were from Montjuic and it was this like the memories or text where is this description where the materials come from and this idea of the head of the construction was The person in charge of this building, it's something that I would say that we feel more familiar, no?

But, yeah, I think it's a current discussion in Lacolle, no? Which is our position regarding all those topics and which kind of aesthetics we are looking for. And if it's a desire or a goal or something that we look for, or sometimes it's basically the outcome of a process of discussing other topics.

So I think it's something that we have to address, probably. I think there's still more of this kind of personal genealogy. I'm interested in trying to understand.

You talk about this experience working on La Morada with this group of women as being a kind of a moment of discovery for you personally as an architect in terms of this relationship between aesthetics and politics. maybe, or the expressivity of a particular group of users and how that manifests on a facade or in a building form. But I think there is this really formative moment in education. that must have had some kind of role in your decision to initiate or join this collective.

And I'm still curious too about what your expectations for architecture were coming into education and how and when they changed. Because I suspect that this way of working and thinking probably wasn't taught, at least initially. So where do you learn that?

I think that's a good question. Well, I think that something that is important for me right now is how these different narratives are present in the schools, at least in many of the schools. And also how important it is that for us to be more present in the school, to realize that there are many ways of practicing architecture.

And this was something that when we were studying, it was difficult to see it. So it was a couple of teachers. Zaida Moshi was teaching at the school in that moment.

Jose Maria Montaner, they were talking about the politics of architecture. It was over in a seminar called Architecture and Politics. And also Zaida was the first voice that we heard about feminist approach. And I would say that these were a couple of teachers, really influential for us. They are still friends.

But... There were few of that. So I would say that for us it was, when we were starting La Borda, this idea of understanding which were the main ideas and which kind of architecture we wanted to look at, which were the reference. It was a process of, in a way, self-learning, in a way.

You know, self... Yeah, to try to find that there were many precedents in the way of organizing in the studio, in the way of practicing architecture. that we never heard about them in the school. And I think that it's a pity.

It's something that we have to put the value of on all those different voices. I was mentioning Krol, Giancarlo De Carlo, even Sergio Ferro, or many, many even women that were doing a kind of architecture that we, or matrix this cooperative. So something that we are still discovering voices and it's like...

Oh my god, why we don't know about them before? And this is something that we have done after. So that's why we talk about the neighborhood as a school or spaces of unlearning.

And sometimes we talk about unlearning because we have learned about a specific history written by a specific white man. And this idea of understanding how we can add, complement, redraw it and re... And this is also something that we are still... makes us still understand and think of this... Yeah, our way of operating and our way of working.

And yeah, there were not... there were not a moment of it in the school. I think it was definitely after, after it. And that's why we are constantly understanding our practice.

Each project is an opportunity of a discovery in that sense. We are not involved in academia in a formal way. Any of the members of the call, for example, they are doing a PhD or we are teaching, but we are teaching sometimes in a... of part of a specific courses but not with our agenda.

We are not having a course with our agenda. So each project it's the space of opportunity of that and it's been the way that we have been doing it. I don't know if it's correct or incorrect. The last question has to do with this topic of evolution.

It's a question about aging. When we visited Laborda You were talking about just how much energy it took to achieve that project, which was unprecedented at the time and I think still is in terms of being the tallest cross laminated timber building in the city, being the first cooperative. housing project developed on public land. I mean it was a real Herculean feat. How do you sustain that energy and that ambition and I guess that naivete?

as well in a practice as the practice ages? Well, I think it's the idea of aging or evolving is something that it's been really always really linked to Lacan. I would say that we are so many people that there is always kind of new energies.

I think it's always, I've said it like we are in a certain kind of cycles of dynamics where There is always something that someone that right now it's maybe in a moment of just kind of resting to bring kind of new energy you know and I think that even this idea of evolution it's also allowing us to think how Lacolle it's a platform for the people who founded Lacolle but also for people who are starting to work here no and I think one of the challenges for us it's how the originality and all the discussions that we had as co-founders, we can expand it in the new people who are involved as workers, as collaborators. So this idea of evolving the structures and also the projects is something that gives constantly new... So we are always facing new questions and new challenges. But... Yeah, I think it's how we are facing it.

Yeah, it was a bit difficult for me to question. It's a difficult question. I don't think I really formulated it coherently. But maybe there's a question of when you look at most practices, they start off with very ambitious, sometimes totally outlandish.

work that seems almost impossible and is only realized on the basis of this insane naive ambition and energy that is not sustainable and over time things become more conservative I think not politically or not socially but just in terms of saving energy okay yeah I guess there's a question about resisting the the conservatism that corresponds with aging and at the same time how you sustain The radicality that's inherent to the position of youth. Because I feel like this shared accommodation, all these students living together... in that moment must have been quite significant. And yet it's not the kind of conditions that older people would ever find themselves in. And so you kind of need this cooperative environment.

in order to foment these radical ideas. But at some point, you leave that environment. So how do you sustain that attitude despite growing older? Yeah.

I think this idea of the attitude that we were thinking with the manifesto, it's interesting because one day per year, we call it like La Colt's Day, it's a day where we left the office and we try to visit even... construction side that we are all but also reference of architecture and people and the last the last year we'll visit Kiko Rius who did a fantastic housing building in the 70s and also then Alfonso Sol de Vila so both of them were around 80s and they did two masterpieces not really known but when we were there it was like oh my god they are so young in the way that they are thinking and it's precisely This idea of radicality in the ideas that they had is something that we have really present. We can continue thinking constantly, like challenging the frameworks and not...

This idea of even uncomfortability, like to challenge comfort in many senses, no? And I think that it's something that, because we are so many people, we have always this idea of contradictions. embedded in the EDN of LACOL. So there is no assembly where someone suddenly sets a conflict in a way.

For me, we constantly, I don't know, thinking about the labor conditions, it's something that addresses different voices and it's constantly one person in the assembly that has a specific need. and just kind of bombs the environment. So well, this is something that we are always trying to have in mind.

And I would say that the collective is the answer. So never we are always in the same mood, we are always in the same personal moment, in the same interest. And precisely this is allowing us to constantly readdress the questions that we are having on the table. But definitely this idea of the attitude, it was something even with Lacaton Basal. I remember being in La Borda and Jean-Philippe said, when we were doing the Palais de Tokyo, the idea of challenging the fire regulations and testing it because it was insane what they were asking us.

And suddenly we were in La Borda and he said, of course there are similarities, but for me the main similarity is this attitude. facing, challenging ownership, challenging the party regulation, challenging many things. So, well, this is something that we are caring about it, no?

And we will always try to give us those spaces of a stop, gather together and thinking which is the next step, no? Well, this is... And yeah, the last questions were difficult, sorry, sorry about that.

No, that was great. Cristina, thank you again so much for your time. No. for you.

You've been listening to Scaffold. If you didn't catch all the references Christina mentioned, including Francisco Luis and Alphonse Soldavila, they're all listed in the show notes of this episode. And some of the projects will be posted on the podcast's Instagram feed as well.

Scaffold is an Architecture Foundation production. I'm Matthew Blunderfield, and I make this show. The theme music is composed and performed by Luke Blair. Subscribe to Scaffold on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, and follow the show on Twitter and Instagram at scaffold underscore podcast.

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Transcript for:Cooperative Architecture and Design Autonomy

Transcript for:
Cooperative Architecture and Design Autonomy