okay just wait for another minute just for people to join and then we'll start okay perhaps we'll start um hello everybody and welcome to you all thank you for joining us today for the webinar rethinking social protection and climate change the implications of social protection um or climate change for social protection policy and programming in the Asia Pacific region this webinar calls for a shift in policy around social protection um and climate change in the Asia Pacific region and globally the objective of the webinar is to hear about and reflect on the findings of a report prepared for the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and trade by Cecilia costella and Anna mcord of this climate change and social protection research initiative which will be published this month and available on deat social protection Publications page the webinar today is an opportunity to consider and reflect on the socioeconomic challenges and social protection needs likely to arise from CH climate change in the Asia Pacific region it will also outline and illustrate the potential functions that social protection could play to build resilience and respond to climate change in our region as well the expected challenges to current social protection challenges um social protection practice that changing climate needs will in gender will also be discussed um my name is Jacky pal I work at the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and trade um with the social protection development advisory Services section and I will be your moderator for today for the webinar today so to begin I wish to acknowledge the first Australians past and present as traditional custodians of the land on which many of us are meeting today I wish to acknowledge and respect their continuing culture and the contribution they make to the life of this region I would also like to acknowledge and welcome other iginal and t St Islander people who may be attending today's event we have two sign language interpreters working with us today and live captioning um is also available through the platform the video for the sign language interpreter will always be spotlighted and to see the live captions you'll need to click on the close captions button to make the caption visible along the bottom of your screen I will also pour between each presenter so that the sign language interpreters and live catching can catch up if you have any questions about these functions please post them in the chat and um our team um at socialprotection.org will help to resolve those questions for you um please also note um that the webinar will be recorded today and that's the slide presentations will be shared on the socialprotection.org website after today I'd like to also take this opportunity to introduce you to um two people who are in the background as the team at socialprotection.org who are hosting the webinar for us today Fabiana and Fernanda um social protection. org are a wonderful group of professionals who um who who made up of a team of wonderful group of professionals who make this global social protection platform possible and um I just like to say thank you very much on behalf of defat social Protection Team and our Network okay so moving to the speakers we have a number of speakers today we're very fortunate to have Shanti s Gupta presenting for us today Shanti is a technical advisor at the Red Cross um red presentent climate Center an advisor to CP the climate change and social protection research initiative and an independent Consulting in the poverty and inequality practice Shanti has stepped in today present on behalf of Cecilia costell who with Anna McCord co-authored the Asia Pacific CP report Shanty with um Cecilia organized the first Big Ideas meeting in London in 2022 2020 with um social protection and climate change experts which aimed to bring these two sectors together and inspire people to take a long-term perspective on the role of social protection in relation to climate change and are also participated in this big meeting meetings Big Ideas meeting which indirectly contributed to the Genesis of this report so it's really nice to have um them both here today Anna will be our second speaker Anna is the co-founder and lead of the climate change and social protection research initiative CP um she is an independent consultant in poverty and inequality practice and a senior research associate of um ODI we will then hear from two discussions from the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and trade Peter Elder from our climate resilience and finance Branch um and Lisa Hanigan our senior advisor for social protection at defat followed by some time for a question and answer session which I will moderate with the help of my colleague Felicity O'Brien just a couple of points um on Lisa and and Peter from um who are two speakers from um defat Peter Elder is um with the climate diplomacy and development finance division um with defat he has extensive uh experience in multilateral climate change um for where he has represented Australia and earlier the UK to help Advance climate change responses and sustainable development in recent years his work has focused on the challenge of scaling climate finance and supporting climate resilient development programming we also have Lisa Hanigan who is our senior advisor for social protection at defat leads a team on social protection of which I'm a member that provides technical support across the indopacific to defect country programs develops policy and builds capacity within the department on social protection her team supports knowledge generation and dissemination in under researched areas to ensure policy and programming decisions are underpinned by evidence Lisa and Felicity O'Brien in our team um uh with Abigail Becka previously Have Been instrumental in progressing this report um which we really do hope will continue to help us to identify opportunities to integrate climate change into defat social protection agenda the findings and recommendations that will be presented today are the result of consultations with social protection and climate change Partners across the region um and those are consultations that um Cecilia and Anna LED and we really see this as very much the beginning of our work in this area and we um very much forward to continue to work continuing to work with you all to identify opportunities to strengthen collaboration between the climate change and social protection uh sectors in the Asia Pacific region so before I move to the presentations I'd just like to introduce you to um the question and answer box so while you're listening if you could start to share questions in the Q&A box that would be fabulous um and we ask that you share your name and organization and if your question is directed to a specific specific speaker and also if you need to provide context around your question in if it's in relation to a particular point that was made is made during the presentations please just also flag flag that um okay so the presentations we'll we'll get into it so we're going to um now hear from our first Speaker uh sh GTA who will provide a quick introduction to the report before moving into the implications of climate change for social protection needs over the medium term thanks Shanti thanks Jackie and I hope you can sh see my screen here and good morning everybody good afternoon whoever is joining us today it's a pleasure to actually be here h on behalf of Cecilia and share some some of the key points being made in this incredible report I would say on rethinking social protection and climate change I say incredible because it has it has had a lot of work go into it so the thought process started three years ago as uh as Jackie mentioned but over the last one year Anna and Cecilia have been conducting several key informant interviews literature reviews looking into past and ongoing projects in the region and drawing on the sixth assessment report which was produced by the United Nations intergovernmental panel on climate change and focused specifically on impacts adaptation and vulnerability so building on that uh what it means for the Asia Pacific region this report has been developed uh to look into the medium-term implications of climate change and suggest some recommendations um and in a nutshell the report speaks to several different points but with the vision that there needs to be a change in the thinking around social protection and climate change in the Asia Pacific by doing two things one by improving the understanding of what kind of socioeconomic challenges are likely to come up from climate change and in the medium to long term and secondly how social protection can be used to address some of these challenges um to do this the report mentions the projected medium-term socioeconomic uh impacts of climate and how they're actually reshaping the socioeconomic shocks and stresses and and changing the nature of risk itself and then it goes on to link that up with what social protections functions can look like when the nature of needs are changing in such a way to do this it also Maps the current policy and practice on linking these two sectors from the from Global experiences but also Regional experiences from countries where this is happening to some extent and based on these examples and case studies and Country examples they argue that the social protections current conceptualization and design may not be adequate in the context of climate change when we're looking at this midterm to long-term perspective so if this is not adequate what do we need to do so they figure out some of the bigger priority areas for critical rethinking and provide recommendations around policy practice financing and learning even though the report is focused on Asia Pacific it it caters to some of this crucial questions that the sector is facing in general and is relevant globally so to sum up there there are three main issues covered in the report um so implications of climate change for social protection needs is the first one the functions of social protection in this context is the second one and these two points would be covered by me uh in my presentation and then Anna would be looking into the challenges for the current orthodoxies sector and what could probably be done about that so we already know that climate change is impacting the Asia Pacific region substantially and these impacts are expected to intensify and intensify quite significantly even under optimistic warming scenarios so the negative climate impacts are resulting in compounding shocks and stresses which is which can lead to significant social economic and political disruptions um we know that many many of these countries are quite exposed and people are vulnerable to climate change because of their High dependence on agriculture and clustering of significant populations and infrastructures in coastal regions the region has experienced a average temperature increases sea level rise and a shift towards more variable precipitation patterns so all of the together is having compounding impacts and we do not exactly know the detailed time frame and the location of these impacts but we know this is happening the region and is likely to intensify so this then has of course different implications for how the economies are shaped up or have been shaped up labor market patterns the availability of Labor and the supply of labor will undergo changes there will be health related challenges and access to basic resources for several of the several sections of the population who are still dependent on primary resources uh would be under question bringing in a question for livelihoods as well so what we're seeing is that there will be a reshaping of the socioeconomic risks people face so this will not only deepen the poverty and vulnerability it's it will also increase the existing risks while creating new on especially for those who are already marginalized so we we tend to understand that different groups have differential vulnerabilities and needs and this will be affected differently in uh in a scenario where risks are intensifying and changing so what can be expected is a significant disruption globally across several human systems Urban infrastructure systems water food Health Systems and which will kind of impact the critical economic sectors and livelihoods so what I've already said can be looked into from two different sides so one is the non-climate drivers right on the left which is around urbanization population growth which we have seen in many of these countries economic growth and popul and employment related um challenges political and institutional Factor an environmental degradation so these are the non-climate uh drivers but then on the right hand side there are also biophysical climate drivers of why this is happening there are some changes in the climate patterns increase in temperature sea level rise and then impacts on the terrestrial and marine ecosystems resulting in reduced resources and changes in extreme events and intensifying int ification of such so all of these affect these eight key socioeconomic impact areas we we see food and water security decreased eels production areas or agricultural areas reducing where where agricultural production is no longer possible leading to reduced food security um similarly health and nutrition in in increase in epidemics increase in water and Vector Bond diseases infrastructure damage due to the some of these extreme events urbanization and and urban clusters out migration from rural to the urban and and quite a bit of concentration in urban centers which are often quite exposed um it the drivers also impact the local economy and the labor market so there is a limit to how much you can adapt and what are the challenges when there is a limit to adaptation being reached in a certain region then there is the economic performance all of these result in change in the structure of econom is changing due to the impacts because this can have an implication for the GDP which may be reduced costs of climate change are increasing and then amount of money going into adapting and mitigating that will also increase so generally there would be a shift in the nature of the economy and what could be contributed to um and all of this play in for peace and Mobility so there we can expect increased internal and transboundary migration more displaced populations and competition for SC resources and all of this of course then link back to poverty and reduction in income reduction in uh reduction in safety nets or inadequate safety nets and increase prices for adaptation increase prices for basic resources so we see these as the main key socioeconomic impact areas and when you bring this all back to the region we see something quite prominent happening in South Asia southeast Asia Pacific South Asia we already see that there is decline in crop eel and from 2030 to 2080 there is expected to be more than 30% decline in crop yield so this is also um this is Amplified by the loss of productive land and and directly impacts food in Security in the region we also expect by 20150 increased Health impacts and a lot of undernutrition malaria dial diseases and heat related mortality in South Asia climate induced migration is expected to to go up to 40 million by 2050 and this is uh going to of course mean extreme poverty rates would rise up it is expected to rise up by 25% in India Pakistan and Sri Lanka by 2050 southeast Asia is also quite vulnerable in the sense that there is expected to be a 12% decline rice seals which is one of the major major agriculture produce of the Ian with a lot of arable land lost to Big River de deltas and sea level rise in this region we also see salinization of many coastal regions which result in many agricultural lands becoming non-arable heat related mortality just like South Asia is also expected to rise and this there is a bigger uh two to three million internal climate migrants expected in the lower meong region by 2030 so the main poverty driver however for Southeast Asia particularly is supposed to be the health related impacts and the outof pocket expenditures that would that it will have for people in the region who may not be covered by universal healthcare yet and coming to the Pacific fresh water stress and water insecurity is one of the major problems and it has an indirect and direct relation to water War diseases so this is one of the driving health health related concerns for the Pacific we also see there's going to be local food production decline which means uh Fisheries are already showing um loss of uh potential catch there is loss of arable land and fall in several subsistence crop yields uh added to this there is significant climate disasters and extreme events in the region from Cyclone Storm surges and this all results in reduced habitability and a loss and damage to the infrastructures so um and a predicted GDP loss of more than 4% per anom already is what's being estimated so what all of this means in this schematized representation is that the social protection needs which we think are growing in a stepbystep fashion or social protection needs are increasing over time actually it's it's not only increasing it's incremental it's due to the stresses we are seeing compounding effects which are leading to some tipping points and Domino effects which have not been predicted before the shocks becoming more frequent and more L and increased in intensity means that then needs to be a change we cannot have the same business as usual scenario continue so then what does it mean for implications of climate change for social protection right so all of this now need to be brought back to what does this mean for social protection demand large scale increase in the size of population which we see in this region who are unable to meet their basic needs without external support has an implication for the scale of social protection coverage so social protection coverage would need to be extended to cover newer regions newer geographies it will also need to modify the type so the typee of risk that is being covered is changing it's not only idiosyncratic it's covariate risks and complex needs compounding needs so that means the type of instruments um that will be needed to cover this risk is also changing and with that there's a change in the special distribution so newer geographies but also it's also newer locations um we we see that there will be transboundary migration and displacement and social protection would need to think of effective ways to protect people still in context of mobility and displacement so social protection's nature of what social protection can be doing in this context of climate change also changes a bit and this brings us to the five main functions of social protection and climate change in this context of me to long-term changes and needs um this the first of this is reducing underlying vulnerability to climate change which is one of the traditional functions of social protection and this is the overall perspective that regular cash transfer for example can encourage a lot of um encourage resilience building can can reduce income poverty and overall increase the coping capacity of some of these populations so underlying vulnerability to climate change is the first function that social protection can have in this regard the second is responding to climate shocks and disasters so cushioning the impacts of these increasing frequency of shocks um and this can be in the form of cash for work or cash top offs to compensate for the loss days of work due to some of these climate shots for instance or the third function for example could be the negative welfare impacts that that several climate transition policies in different countries will have are being offset so this could look like subsidies for for for populations who are severely affected due to rise in prices um or for enabling them to purchase renewable energy sources and options for example and and the fourth function could be facilitating and enabling climate change uh adaptation options so this means that Cash Plus for example Cash Plus components which promote income diversification skill trainings and so on and promote adaptive behaviors can also be encouraged to social protection and finally the fifth function could be in contributing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and carbon sequestration so we see several um programs in Social protection which focus on Public Works which can have direct um soil management Forest conservation and so on components but also payment for ecosystem services and several other conservation programs which can directly contribute to this so coming to my last slide and handing over to Anna in a second this is already happening in some places right so we know that this is some of this we have heard we have adaptive social protection we have shock responsive social protection and several other anticipatory action through social protection coming up and linking social protection and climate but we still see that there's Limited operationalization in a in a midterm long-term thinking time scale the there are only a very very few large scale programs and generally the approach is so far tweaking adapting here adjusting there but not really rethinking several of how we design and Implement programs short time frames is what we also see in the Asia Pacific region um and so similar op Innovations options and experiences in are seen in the region but they're not really really connected to each other and we're not yet learning from each other's experiences as much we should coverage remains small um and limited evaluation and learning being fed back so to actually tackle that Gap and I will show what are the challenges and what can what can be some of the recommendations I'll stop there Anna over to you thank you Santi thank you very much for that are you able to see my [Music] screen yes excellent thank you um so I'm going to carry on um to look at the implications of of what Shanti has presented I mean I think we've heard quite how significant the impacts of climate change are going to be in terms of socioeconomic change um changing demand and needs for social protection um and we've also heard the different functions that social protection can have in this context and how it can contribute um to to addressing climate change but I think what emerged as we were doing this report very clearly was that addressing these issues is going to really um represent present some very major challenges for the way that that we conceptualize social protection the way the way we deliver it at the moment and actually we're going to need to rethink some of the orthodoxes that currently in inform our practice um because to respond to these kind of challenges a business's usual approach is unlikely to be adequate so let me share with you um this this was the uh these were the major um implications of climate change for social protection that Shan presented we have issues to do with scale the type of social protection the duration of needs the spatial distribution of of needs and actually if we consider the implications of of these changes in need these really profound changes in need um it's clear that we're going to have to rethink reconceptualize social protection in a number of key areas and we we broke it down into six six major areas one has to do with Institution the institutional context for social protection the second is to do with policy alignment the third is to do with coverage and targeting Norms the next is to do with the kind of instruments that we adopt and the way that we design programs um the penultimate is the operational systems that will be required and the final one is financing excuse me so what I'd like to do is just say a few words about each of these um issues and explain why we feel that actually there are some major challenges um for the way we work currently in the sector um if we look first of all at institutions and mandates um it seems clear that that the current Arrangement that we have of sovereign and international mandates in terms of Institutions rights Frameworks are unlikely to be adequate to deliver the kind of social protection the scale of social protection that will be required to respond to this this major so um socioeconomic disruption and labor market disruption that we're likely to see um it's clear that that that the bilateral and multilateral context is is one where which is challenging and um agencies are already struggling to deliver um adequate social protection so the question is would the existing multi and bilateral establishment um be adequate to support the kind of changes that we need to see and the kind of Vision we need and I think the the other issue to consider at National level is that many governments are already struggling to provide adequate social protection I in the region we know how how low coverage levels are particularly in in low middle- inome countries but if we add climate induced internal migration and international transboundary migration into the picture we may well find that that needs vastly exceed the administrative and fiscal capacity of um of of national um National institutions so we have to be thinking about the the way that we can respond to this challenge because it may not be that assuming that National governments can uh take on responsibility for for responding to these needs is still a a good assumption to make so what do we need to consider in this area well I think essentially we need to consider revising the international architecture the institutional architecture um and the rights framework so really we need to be looking at that and seeing how adequate that is um to to to govern the kind of needs that that we're anticipating um we need to think about the adequacy of existing institutions engaged in Social protection provision and Disaster Response and we need to do that both at a national level and an international level and we need to think about the adequacy of the existing rights framework will the current architecture be sufficient to govern um to govern the provision of future needs um and we need to also think about the allocation of mandates to deliver to deliver on the right to Social Security between National governments um host countries International agencies this really needs to be explored um the other major issue that we need to think about that I know Australia is already addressing in some measure and I think Peter's going to say more about this is the question of welfare port stability um because I I I think it's clear that we need to formalize institutional Frameworks for transboundary provision because this is going to be a major characteristic um of of poverty needs um in in the coming decades so we need to be thinking about developing Regional Frameworks for social protection provision and the governance of that provision which extend beyond National boundaries and finally I mean I think the other key area is the consolidation of activities of of the multilateral agencies inos government entities currently operating in the social protection and humanitarian sectors um and I think there's already well-developed discourse looking at the current inefficiencies of of the way that we have this fragmented system and so there will be an urgency to address that um in in the coming years as resources are constrained and needs increase so there's there's many more issues but I just wanted to give you a flavor of the key challenges that we need to be thinking about in terms of Institutions and mandate the second major issue is really one of policy alignment and here the challenge is that we saw very clearly that National social protection policy isn't yet directly informed by climate sector analysis or recognition of the magnitude of the changing needs that shenti outlined um and we see this division between the climate uh sectors in government and the um social protection sectors and also the social the potential contribution of social protection to climate change management isn't yet understood among climate actors so the the misalignment and the missed opportunity to collaborate um is is very strong in both both directions um and what we see is that there's there's a potential for social protection to be used to contribute to climate response policies but that alignment isn't yet in place and in fact what's needed is more than just integration between climate and social protection sectors but we also need to accommodate um industrial policy um Environmental Policy energy policy agricultural policy because those will inform both the needs for social protection but also how it could be used to contribute um to The Climate related objectives in those sectors um and I I think when we're looking at policy integration the other issue is the need for regional social protection uh a regional social protection policy response um which would include these transnational issues that that we'd spoken about earlier and I think finally the the other major reason that that um policy alignment is so essential and and is is a gap that there's a gap relating to it is that I think it's not well understood that climate change is going to engender quite major as well as socioeconomic disruption political disruption social destabilization and I think the role of social protection in contributing to these kind of objectives hasn't yet been well understood although historically it's been used many times at points of of of economic dislocation and so I think that's the other area where we need to look at policy alignment aligning social protection and um social and stability objectives so essentially what we need to be think thinking about is ensuring that National policy Regional and international social protection policy is informed by an understanding of climate change and the associated poverty scenarios and we need to promote the alignment with National Climate um policy priorities we need to integrate social protection with disaster risk management food security livelihoods poverty reduction labor market climate change mitigation and just transition policies I mean it's it's very clear that social protection will be critical to address the labor market impacts of the just transition the green transition um that the introdution of carbon pricing is going to have an impact Major Impact on poverty and in order to compensate these we need to look at how we can use social protection as a tool and that will require policy alignment which extends into these other sectors of of the um of government including as I said labor markets and Industrial policy um and then the policy align ignment needs to accommodate transboundary provision we need to be looking at Regional and and cross um cross country um provision and I think we need to be looking at how we use social protection as part of a Strategic investment to maintain stability so there's a number of areas where policy alignment is is not yet in place and I think there's not a good understanding of how social protection can contribute to these different areas but actually it could play a really major role so those are the kind of issues we need to be thinking about there both at a national Regional and international levels then if we look at um coverage excuse me if we go on and look briefly at um coverage issues coverage eligibility and targeting we see that there are some major challenges to to orthodoxies there currently the region is characterized by low coverage and a high High degree of discretionary and targeted provision um and I think what's become clear is that if we're having this the kind of growth of chronic poverty we're having an increase in covariant shocks we're going to need to have social protection responses which are covering large segments of the population and the kind of targeting approaches poverty targeting approaches that we've been using in the past May no longer be efficient um or Equitable so the the other issue is that those affected by climate shocks and stresses may not be traditional social protection beneficiaries it may be that they're in different areas for example if we have the um green transition that that may entail major locusts of unemployment in particular areas which previously weren't a focus of of social protection um um also as we have the heat stress effect the impacts on agriculture we may find that particular geographical areas are more in in need of support so we're going to have these changes in the spatial distribution of poverty but also new groups of people may be in need of support there may be a need for greater F focus on the needs of the working AED poor whose livelihoods are no longer viable uh we may need to think about the more about the urban poor um whose livelihoods and lives have been disrupted by um for example in the and the issue of inundation and sea level rise so we really need to be thinking about how how do we address these needs of non-traditional groups um and I another challenge is that much eligibility currently is deliberately conditioned on citizenship which of course may not no longer be an adequate Criterion if we're having significant transboundary movements and I think finally the other reason we really need to think about these issues of coverage eligibility and targeting is that currently in the region there's a very high dependence among poor communities particularly on um informal safety nets Community provided safety nets and these are very likely to be disrupted and in fact in much of the region these informal Community safety nets are more significant in terms of poverty reduction than National um official safety nets so if we see disruption to these kind of traditional um forms of of support then we're likely to see further impoverishment so we need to be compensating for those so what do we need to be thinking about well we need to really think how systems and provision can be expanded to accommodate increased coverage needs um we need to think about how we can accommodate changing vulnerabilities we need to think about shifting from what's become the the norm in our sector poverty targeting or targeting on the basis of individual characteristics to perhaps using alternative approaches such as geographical or Universal approaches and we need to think explicitly how we extend coverage and eligibility to include these non-traditional beneficiaries working age poor urban populations for example okay the other major area that we need to be thinking about is appropriate um instrument and program design and here as I mentioned we we're going to have these increasing covariant impacts that much is clear so we need to ensure that our policies can responds to those kind of covariant impacts um another major challenge we're going to see is is I think an increasingly fuzzy distinction between humanitarian and development programming as chronic poverty and shocks increase and overlap so we have to think about how we respond to that in terms of pro um design and and um instrument selection um and I think there's a there's a few other issues which are going to present us with real challenges um the reduced availability of basic Commodities um is going to have a significant impact we we're very much oriented towards a cash cash based support but in fact if food is increasingly scarce um then it may be that we need to to to revisit this question of of the way that social protection is is transferred and the kind of resources which are transferred and the other thing we need to consider is is whether some social protection programs are actually at risk of promoting maladaptive or unsustainable outcomes for example some programs deliberately tie beneficiaries to particular locations and I think um in the region um en regga is is the one it's very much tied to to um rural um residents um and internationally we have the psnp in Ethiopia which is Ed to Residents in particular um Urban uh rural areas and the question then becomes um is it appropriate to have instruments which tie people into particular livelihoods which may no longer be sustainable or viable in the context of climate change um and these kind of programs can actually inhibit migration so we need to really think about these kind of questions are are the the programs that we're implementing encouraging people to assist in unsustainable uh livelihoods and and locations which are no longer viable for for habitation so clearly this there's some really difficult questions that we need to think about and and we really need to revisit our instrument and program design choices so we need to develop alternative instrument packages to accommodate increasing changing poverty and these covariant risks we need to revisit this cach versus in kind um it may be that food provision is is appropriate it may be that fuel provision is appropriate um to address um some of the the the resource constraints that people will be facing rather than cash and interestingly in India there's a debate now about replacing rice in the public distribution system with Millet Which is far more um responsive um to to to climate change and is more it entails less emissions in its production so it may be that actually we're looking at Shifting the food that we Supply as part of social protection and maybe we move away altoe from um from cash provision in some contexts um we need to ensure that programs accommodate internal and transboundary M migration as an adaptation strategy don't prevent it we need to ensure that the the programs recognize the limits to adaptation and don't incentivize Mal adaptation and we also need to consider how we could actually potentially use social protection to support National adaptation and mitigation um at scale linked to climate management priorities and here I'm I'm thinking about um the adoption of for example Public Works programs which is already starting to happen in I I think we have in both India and Pakistan uh we have the use of Public Works programs to address uh reforestation carbon sequestration for example and I think the other thing is we need to shift from smallscale Project based approaches because what we've seen very clearly is that most of the climate related interventions in the region are actually small scale initiatives and this really has to be something which is done at Large Scale in order to have a significant impact particularly if we're wanting to address some of these climate challenges and and I think the final issue here is that we really need to think our rethink evaluation Norms so that we're directly appraising the climate performance of um of program s which currently doesn't tend to happen okay I think I've nearly used up my time so let me move on a little more rapidly um in in terms of operational systems and here I think it's very clear that we can see that the the potential to expand social protection is really constrained currently by the scale uh um by the quality of operational systems throughout the region um and we need to really think about developing the essential operating systems including things like national ID National Registry and payment Delivery Systems which will enable large scale provision and accommodate whole populations so we need to be thinking about these kind of questions when we develop operational systems and critically we need to invest in interoperable systems with a cross boundary cross border functionality in terms of financing I mean we we we have a a real challenge because we have have massively increasing need in the coming decades that's very clear but at the same time there are going to be resource constraints for the reasons that Shanti outlined domestic um that the resources available for domestic financing for social protection are going to be significantly constrained as climate makes increasing demands on the fiscus and at the same time negative impacts on on GDP in developing countries is likely to really constrain the Oda available for social protection um and and another issue is that we have this inefficiency of multiple different financing pools currently which is highly complex and in inefficient with high opportunity costs for governments so we have many challenges and the other issue is that the the current focus on pulled risk and insurance-based approaches may be um problematic in a context where you have this increase in large scale covariant risks and increasing frequency of shocks so the viability of the kind of approaches that we're adopting at the moment may be um called into question so what do we need to be thinking about well I think one key thing is we need to really increase sector spending efficiencies um we need to rationalize U the funds that are available and we need to ensure that the resources that are available are effectively spent um we need to Accel accelerate the integration and consolidation of humanitarian crisis response and social protection financing and we need to really interrogate this issue of the sustainability of insurance-based financing we need to reconsider also the viability of contributory social protection and domestic financing because both of these could be adversely impacted by the kind of um economic impacts that we're likely to see um and finally we need to really explore alternative um financing models and ensure that the the climate funds which are available accommodate social protection provision and we need to develop long-term financing models to accommodate these changing climate needs okay so let's just summarize the challenges I think we heard from shyti that climate change is going to profoundly reshape socioeconomic risks and increase the need for social protection to date strategic Interac um integration of social protection in climate sectors remains low and the medium-term climate risks which which are only 10 20 years ahead of us um are not yet integrated into the discourse so in order to address this what we will really need is investment in programmatic and strategic Innovations and reconsideration of many of the orthodoxes that currently shape the sector and I think I'll leave it there thank you very much thank you so much Anna and Shanty that was um a very impressive presentation I'm now going going to pass over to um to Peter Elder um who is the director for climate and development integration at defat and he's going to provide his reflection on these challenges and what he sees as the potential linkages between climate and social protection over to you Peter uh thanks Jackie and everyone uh on the um on the webinar um just uh Begin by um adding my own acknowledgement to Jackie's earlier one to First Nations peoples in Australia and elsewhere attending today's meeting um I'd also like to uh genuinely start with a welcome uh for the report um and acknowledgement that the the work of the authors um have have have done with all of their inputs um uh over the last three years I do realiz you know the Genesis of this started such a such a long time ago but it has come together um uh quite um magnificently and produced a really compelling uh uh report on one slice but a very important slice of our um responses to the um the escalating uh sort of climate contemporary climate impacts that we U we face and I welcome the report um because I think it's important and I also think it's incredibly timely um at at a point where um there's you know an escalating and and and rapidly compounding um series of of climate impacts um where uh we've got International National Domestic community- based pressure uh to uh to respond in ways that will um you know help keep our countries or communities you know safe secure and prosperous um and there is a A continuing need for uh up toate temporary knowledge uh in this field so the report provides all of that I'm I'm particularly delighted that defa was able to um support the um the development of the report um and also proud that we are putting it out into into the public domain um along with today's uh discussion and the um the presentation materials because I think we we need um uh given the scale of the the challenges addressed in the last two presentations we really need the you know a global Community to come together and and um and contribute to uh to next steps on this so are very very uh important and timely reports um I won't go into um s too much repetitive detail but um a good place to start as I think Shany did was uh just to just go back to the what we know what what the picture of of climate change um is looking like and the the last ipcc reports AR6 um is probably the best available science on this it's it's deep detailed it's dense it's difficult um uh to to unpack but it is clear that um uh you know we are uh facing escalating uh climate impacts uh very various climate impacts and the fact that they are increasingly compounding in ways that even five years ago were not really um anticipated um and I think you know starting with the science as the basis for um for our considerations can never be underestimated it's it's critical because if we don't have a good robust evidence base for um our next steps um we have very little um uh we can have very little confidence that those steps will um you know respond to to the actual uh the challenges so um you know the the the climate impacts themselves are a very important part of this picture we see those globally we see different impacts in different regions um uh which are uh you know driving um uh response measures uh into communities in ways that we we sort of are barely able to keep up with so um the know the science is important and the other of course consequential shift that's happening at the same time um is the economic and energy transition to to sort of clean energy and away from you know our industrial base for the last hundred and so years which itself is um is driving significant changes at um at Community levels um is challenging orthodoxies around income and livelihoods um and again these together with the the day-to-day realities of the climate impacts are causing us to really um uh stop and reconsider um across the policy and programming space whether um you know our current approaches are are are meeting the needs or or you know fit for the challenge um and I think we can all agree agree that they aren't and um again they need to do better um one thing that's come through the report quite strongly and um again from a um Australian government perspective could strongly endorse this is they need to to better understand the the risks as they are as they are developing and analyses on these um so more effort at the at the outset to ensure that we properly as best as we can or you know reviewing all risk information we are reviewing climate data we're looking at weather data we're looking at population data um Health outcomes um uh food and and crop um production and and yield etc etc all of these um analyses really need to come together um and continue to inform uh the the risk um uh picture that we're trying to address so so an informed response really is is critical um as we um proceed to devise policies and programs um for a contemporary climate impacted world and and this report um is you know a response to that to that analysis um one thing that um sort of has come through quite a bit is is um the uh cross sectoral uh impacts that the climate changes having on our I think it was orthodoxies was the word that Anna used um the Australian government since um the last election has elevated um uh quite significantly um the consideration of climate across the the policy and programming space domestically as well as internationally or should doubt um and I think um we um need to approach our considerations from this point on shaking our perhaps traditional thinking that climate was another sector that needed responding to in in the way that we had health sector education sector governance infrastructure Etc um climate is is is sitting above and and cutting through all of these um and uh if you look for instance at the Australian government's um recently published New International Development policy um you'll see clearly that the um the approach that we've taken um in in our approach to International Development is to lift climate above a traditional sector approach in recognition that climate impacts and the economic and energy impacts that flow from those are affecting um across all sectors of the the development assistance um program um and uh you know climate I think it's only if we address climate and every one of these areas that we can hope to actually deliver climate resilient sustainable development outcomes um so one one take away from from uh this for me is very much to to um strengthen the um the thinking around climate resilient development rather than climate change being a sector um that we need to address uh discretely um alongside other development challenges um briefly just on the the um the new um Aid um International Development policy and framework um we've put at the heart of that um essentially three um three things that will now govern the development of our development responses um the consideration of risk which I I mentioned earlier um in particular the alignment of our um uh uh responses with um uh our country Partners uh or own um National development plans National adaptation plans uh to ensure the uh the greater alignment across the policy and programming space which is something also the report calls for um and also um we've set um goal to ensure that over the life of the um the development um policy we will have a climate clearly identified as an objective across um I think up to 80% of all new significant um uh Oda Investments so that's not to say that 80% of our International Development um assistance will be um climate programs but rather it's to emphasize that um alignment and the crosscutting nature of climate across Health um uh development programming education development programming infrastructure development programming so um one way that we're we're trying um through policy programming responses to deliver some of what the the report has identified um I just wanted to briefly mention of course there is much in the report and much we've heard already today that um applies just as much to in in a developed country setting as it does in a developing country setting um uh within Australia you know a an economy that has um uh since um you know beginning of the 20th century being in fact earlier um heavily reliant on um on um uh extractive Industries uh has been fueled by um uh fossil fuels um and has an economy structured around that with employment structured around that we're seeing significant shifts domestically now as we not only respond to climate impacts you know increasing bush vires in particular um um in this country um but also the economic shifts that responses to to climate are having on communities within Australia so a lot of our thinking around social protection um uh within a developing country context can of course be informed by um our domestic um uh policy and programming contexts where we're also looking at um you know migration across uh communities and um increasing um urbanization to a degree um but certainly we're looking at shifting um from traditional Industries as um you know employers into new Industries and they need to ensure that communities are are supported in that transition and not left behind so there there's a lot we can draw from our domestic experience that will help um as we partner in our developing country uh contexts um um regionally um uh I think um you have perhaps recently seen there was a meeting of the Pacific island Forum leaders um where uh there was um large focus on um the impacts that climate was having um across the region within countries and within communities and there were a number of announcements um and initiatives launched that um would seek to address some of those we can talk a bit more about those in in the Q&A perhaps um southeast Asia presents a slightly different picture I suppose from from Australia's um Central position in the region where there's um a greater emphasis on Hall of economy um uh economic and energy transition so the the uh impacts that that transition is having are different uh to um the sort of impacts we're seeing from climate in the Pacific and therefore the responses need to be different and that includes um uh the um the social protection responses so I I again endorse the um the comments in the report about context specific um and needs-based responses that are fit for purpose um within the countries and communities concerned um globally of course the um the United Nations uh framework convention on climate change uh and its annual um gathering at cops uh continues uh to focus on many of the challenges around adequacy of Finance provision of support to um uh countries uh uh with significant clim facing significant climate impacts and also economic challenges um one of the um major outcomes from last year is the recognition on the need to um uh reassess um what is known in the UN as the the loss and damage mechanisms uh and the need to um consider funding Arrangements including the um the development of a uh Global fund for loss and damage responses in developing countries Australia has been heavily involved in uh those discussions uh for the last 12 months has been on a a small Committee of uh countries uh looking at uh the design of a a global fund um which hopefully will come to some fruition with a a decision taken this year's cult in just a couple of weeks time um but also just to pick up on um one of the sort of later points in Anna's presentation um we need to be very conscious that one size will not fit all and large Global responses um can be slow can be cumbersome and um are not often as as um um amable to specific contexts as more Regional more country country based and indeed more local based um uh responses for um social protection humanitarian response um and the like so we'll continue to um keep an eye across all of those um uh aspects as we consider climate and social protection responses um I'll close now but I think um while the the picture at the outside is quite you know gloomy um the climate realities are are inescapable I think there are nonetheless opportunities um uh to be better informed which this report has contributed to there are opportunities for us to continue to better align our responses um nationally internationally regionally um and there are opportunities for us always to be uh to be learning more um including through deeper understanding of community level um impacts so I I as a I think as a customer for this report sitting in the in the climate space I'm very very boyed and that there is such a depth of thinking and experience that can be tapped into and I'm grateful again to all the work that's led up to this report and I'm uh looking forward to deeper integration and deeper alignment of our climate responses to ensure that um we can benefit um from the um the responses to climate change and um protect those and bring those along who um are um uh facing the greatest challenges so I'll stop there uh thank you very much again and I'll throw now I think back to Jackie thank you thank you very much Peter for those um Reflections it's it's just so great to to to know that um already this report is um is being seen as useful so we um we're we're very um very thankful that you're able to join and that you're able to provide those um those Reflections thank you okay so we are going to hear now from our last speaker discussant but before we do that could people start um thinking about questions or Reflections in the Q for the Q&A box and start posting them um if if you have questions or comments um uh okay so now over to um Hanigan who is our senior advisor for social protection at defat for her Reflections um on potential linkages between social protection and climate change thanks Lisa thanks Jackie um can I just check that you can see a slide there yeah we can the beginning of a slide yep great um and thanks thanks Jackie thanks um Anna and Shany um they've given us a lot to absorb and great Reflections there there Peter um it is so so clear um that the impacts of climate change are going to create enormous need um and social Protection Systems have to step up um to adequately address this so while I hope that um there's some people joining today who are coming to this from the climate space because we're because we're hosting this on social protection. org I'm assuming that the bulk of the audience is coming from the social protection angle um so I thought what might be useful to reflect on um is what resonates more or less um with my social protection colleagues and me um from from this work um so that's the angle that um that I'll be be taking here in some quick Reflections because it's not like we're not all talking about shocks and adaptive social protection and shock responsive social protection anticipatory action at all we are talking about this um all the time um there's adaptive social protection strategies that are being developed across the whole region every social protection conference that we're all going to has it on the agenda it's it had a huge boost um during the pandemic um Co really clearly demonstrated to all of us what a large piece in the puzzle social protection could be when countries had to reach people um in need quickly uh those countries with social protection systems did better than those without um and countries that weren't really focused on social protection during Co or just hadn't used their social protection system to respond to the big shocks um now not only are talking about social protection um in that language but they're talking about shock responsive social protection adaptive social protection so then the question is surely if we have systems to cover um social Protection Systems to cover um people in normal time times as well as to be able to cover these crises does it really matter what sort of shock it is could it could be the fuel fuel price rise another pandemic a climate related Cyclone volcano whatever I mean if the systems are there we will be set um and I think this is this is the value of Anna and Cecilia's um work because the answer is unfortunately if we don't intentionally and adequately incorporate clim incorporate climate concerns the systems are not going to be fit for purpose people will not to be able to adequately cover their needs um so as someone who's working on social protection in the region I find the summary um of the functions of social protection for climate change that was presented just before by by Shanti um this one to be um to be really useful of way of ccept conceptualizing um the intersections so not all functions will be relevant in every country um in our in our region but they are they're hugely helpful when we're trying to think about it um on first one on the reducing vulnerability most countries um in our region have programs for normal times but there are massive gaps in that um in the social protection floor um we have a few countries in our region with no formal social Protection Systems at all um and many that just are covering a subset of the population and sometimes when the programs do exist the benefit levels are too low to really put a dent in poverty so across the asia-pacific region I think it's fair to say where we are quite underdone here especially if poverty rates are going to rise so this function definitely relevant across the region um the second one we're talking about coping with climate related risks before and after fast and slow onset shocks prior to co we had uh Fiji Tonga Philippines in our region that already use their social Protection Systems to respond to shocks Co then sped this along for other countries but it would be also be fair to say that in nearly every country that's focusing um on this ability to coper shocks in the region it really is still a work in progress and um the focus remains much more on the the I guess the rapid onset um shocks rather than the slow so again for this one essential work for all of the countries um and very relevant across across the region um we're seeing a really promising role in the region for the I guess the third one with social protection helping people to navigate climate policies I mean obviously this is of this is um really clear maybe for a country like Indonesia that will be transitioning out of more High emissions Industries but it's also relevant in a place like the Pacific as policies made elsewhere climate related policies made outside of these countries um Can impact on the countries like fuel becoming more expensive um and social protection can reduce that burden so yes obviously I mean this function might be more relevant in some countries than than others in the region on adaptation um social protection could definitely have a role um in adjustments to individual and Community behavior um the report itself has a focus on activities using public works like activities which are possible especially in countries where these large scale um Public Works approach as a standard like uh India Bangladesh adesh I think was in Pakistan um they are less common in Southeast Asia and the Pacific um although in saying that uh Indonesia Philippines Teo Lee all have largescale community-driven development programs which could serve a comparable function of building assets to protect against in increasing climate risk so this function could definitely be in the mix for some countries but others may choose I guess other approaches um on the adaptation side and then the last intersection on mitigation is one that um I think I at least need some further um further thought on um and I know it's one that in some discussions in the past with some climate colleagues in the region they've raised some eyebrows especially in relation to the into the to the Pacific um but I can see potential perhaps in some of the larger countries doing something like Pakistan did with reforestation um but again that doesn't necessarily need to be tied to to social protection so with this one I think there are some really interesting linkages some exciting possibilities um but at least for me right at the moment I think some of the the main intersections at least in the shorter term and across the broader region I probably see some of the lower hanging through it in in the other four but Happ to to discuss that one um then back to that word that we need to focus on um which is intentional um climate change is not just another passing shock it's with us forever it's with our kids forever it's with our grandkid forever um and this research on um on climate and social protection I think is a real wakeup call um it's a call for intentional action we need to go further um and I've started thinking I guess in terms of intentional action across a few areas um the first is more intentional um focus on the risks and those new risks the new needs and the design features that need to be incorporated um so of course just having really good solid social protection system that deals with risks across the life cycle is a really great Foundation ESP especially if if the um system has that flexibility to respond to spikes in need um but the key here though is to ensure that it's underpinned by what those real risks and needs are that are coming our way um and shantia outlined that pretty really well um the report highlights this and we can't so a few things we can't assume for example that the social assistance need will Decline and people will move more into social insurance as we often have in the past um where we're seeing that the poverty numbers may actually increase and may increase dramatically um nor can we assume that an individual in a social Protection Program for a set duration will have received a necessary package of support to make it on their own um the big external shocks from climate change they are going to keep coming um whether they're fast or slow onset so the heroic individual um is going to have more limits on on them um especially when going against something as as powerful as as the climate um and as Anna mentioned before too the uh there may well be um it may well be that some of the private insurance products are no longer viable um if Hazard frequency increases um it's already not viable in in some places including some places is in in Australia so it is definitely worth still examining the appropriate Insurance um markets products for vulnerable people but it does look likely that social assistance will have to will have an increasing load um and design is going to have to be um able to incorporate those spatial considerations across a nation climate related challenges could look very different in um in different parts of the country so the takeaway here for this um intentional focus is that basically it's not business as usual the risks and the needs are changing and the programs need to plan for that second one um is we need and um Anna touched on this one too we need the intentional work with with relevant sectors um climate responsive social protection is a multi sectoral um Endeavor and like all multis sectoral work work it's kind of almost almost impossible not quite but it's going to be really really challenging um in the climate and social protection space we've started talking to each other which is great um but we're at really early stages at the Berlin Berlin uh social protection event this year um midy year July we had a virtual session with the transitional committee on loss and damage that was sitting in Bon um and not many of the social protection people in the Berlin venue understood the work of the transitional committee and not many in the committee knew much about um social protection and certainly not um more sort of shock responsive climate sensitive social protection so um that was incredibly useful session to bring these two worlds together um but one of a first step but I as Anna said too it's not just about bringing these two sectors together at the a global Workshop before Co where we we brought together the humanitarian actors and the social protection actors um the facilitators had to stock the workshop um and we had to spend a couple of hours um on defining terms because we realized the two groups just we didn't understand each other we were using all these different acronyms and we had to we had to pause to ensure that we was we speaking the same language um and we know now that social protection is a really big piece of the humanitarian puzzle but we still in the early stages of incorporating that into humanitarian good practice so definitely a working progress but as well as climate humanitarian we also need to strategically include the other highly relevant sectors um drr food security labor um unless we all understand where our various sectors are fitting together we're not going to be able to progress this agenda and prosecute it effectively with the essential actors like all of the ministries of Finance who are in charge of um of the funding flows um uh the last point on intentional action is on intersecting vulnerabilities and we haven't talked a lot um on about gender disability broader social inclusion um including lgbtiq plus umu but I wanted to mention it again as something that really needs to remain front and center and definitely will in Def Fat's approach um climate risk and the resulting needs it will create a huge but we know that those who will bear the brunt are likely those more vulnerable um those who have less control of the Assets in um in decision making so we're putting together a good practice note at the moment um that we will share on what all of this means on the ground when paying really careful attention to um to the jedy aspects um we all know that all ads adage that hazards remain hazards until they intersect with a vulnerable population and so we need to stay focused on the multitude of vulnerabilities that exist and how they are best addressed which is not only through through social protection um now I just wanted one point parting thought on finance um because we already in the social protection Community we lose a lot of sleep about how we're going to finance the necessary social Protection Systems across the region and that's before we're factoring in the Monumental increase in needs caused by climate change and there is no Global fund on social protection coming to the rescue anytime soon um and pressure is going to be placed on insurance markets so is this all is this or wishful thinking um and so I just wanted to I guess leave us with three positives of three positive things to say um about this financing elephant in in the room um first one is that climate change has the ability to shine this positive light on the role of social protection and its function as an investment in the population and not just a cost we saw a huge upswing in the understanding on the role of social protection during covid so the understanding of it amongst those who hold the pur strings um will likely improve because of the exposure to it during the climate um climate conversations second positive reflection is that climate Finance itself um is a new stream that can be tapped into um to build the necessary systems as the awareness of social protection's core role increases and and um just as that existence of um of such financing mechanisms can increase the motivation to build um social Protection Systems it has the potential to speed then the establishment and the expansion of of social protection so that's enough for me um I'd encourage you to think of everything actually that we've heard today as a starting point some things are going to resonate more than other s it's a toe in the water of promoting understanding including within defat um we very much intend to stay closely engaged on this issue as our understanding um of it uh develops and deepens over thank you okay thank you thank you Lisa um and thank you for the sign language interpreters for for running um that simultaneously um through all of those presentations you've done an amazing job okay so we are now going to um move into a very short question and answer session um we don't have um we don't have a huge amount of time um what I would like to propose is um firstly asking a question to Anna and Peter um which is what do you see um as being the main challenges for integrating social protection objectives um with climate adaptation and mitigation objectives and linked to that um there was a question in the Q&A which is around um a question directly to you about unpacking a little bit more the statement that climate change challenges rights Frameworks human rights Frameworks for social protection and um and then perhaps Shanti if you want to get ready to answer a question on the poverty on poverty measures um and the fact that they don't incorporate socioeconomic impacts of climate change and um whether there are some examples that you'd like to um highlight um in the region in our in the Asia Pacific region about on integrating those um those um impacts into poverty man measures okay we we'll start with those for for now and we'll see how we go thank you thank you very much Jackie um Peter shall I start and then you can you can continue um Jackie you asked the question about the main challenges for integrating social protection with climate adaptation and mitigation objectives and I I think the key challenge is to promote an understanding of of what the role of social protection can be and how social protection can contribute to adaptation and mitigation so I I think that's part of it understanding what social protection can do and that's those those um functions that Lisa was talking about but I I I think the other thing is really the main challenge is to have joy planning because if we understand what the climate adaptation and mitigation objectives are then you can have a serious discussion about how social protection could contribute and the reason it makes sense to align them is that resources are going to be seriously constrained so if we can adopt a policy objective which not only um addresses the poverty impact but also contributes to mitigation then that that's a rational and efficient kind of response and here maybe the kind of programs with thinking about could be state employment programs um so you actually mobilize your your displaced labor um displaced by climate impacts in order to address um mitigation and adaptation objectives um so here you're you're trying to hit two birds with one stone because I think the period of having social protection which is implemented separately from other sexual objectives is probably coming to an end because we are going to be so resource constrained so it's looking at how those two policies can be integrated so getting that discussion going I think is probably the priority I'd say that was my answer but Peter I'd love to hear your thoughts on that from from the climate side yeah thanks Anna and noding furiously as you were you were talking there um I think um I mean there are two aspects and this SL ties back to um Lisa when you came to that fifth um um aspect of social protection as a as a mitigation tool where it is harder I think to to sort of um uh see that playing through I think in adaptation it's possibly a little simpler but the challenges still exist um where social protection is part of a response sort of mindset Something's Happened we need to adapt social protection to is it for non um uh social protection experts or or for you know policy makers or decision makers that's that's an easier flow through um in a way that I think more anticipatory social protection uh is is less obvious but I think if we design um uh mitigation responses that include anticipatory social protection measures so reskilling of of um uh you know employee cohorts or uh consideration of um support for new Industries and bringing communities along with them for instance if there's a there's a social protection element as part of a a mitigation um uh program I think you just bake it in at the beginning but I think it's harder to sort of conceive of that in our with our current Frameworks um again though the one of the challenges is just it's it's not clear always what the impacts of some of our adaptation um challenges and responses are and there is a very real risk that if we don't fully sort of analyze these that we can lead to the sort of Mal adaptation that was touched on earlier um the challenges are all addressed by just sort of deeper thinking stronger communication across sort of sectoral um uh responders and aligning our policy programming responses so there are challenges but I think they um with this report not least can be uh can be addressed thanks it's seven so shall I still have I think go quickly if that's okay um social protection convenience can we just have another five to 10 minutes let's just assume we can Shanti okay I I would just take one minute um I have given some examples in the in the chat but one of the examples I wanted to highlight is Indonesia which is currently creating um integrated social registry working across different Ministries so in in the ministry of of disaster management the environmental Ministry the ministry of labor because and they're also doing something called an Adaptive social protection road map and they realized while doing this targeting is one of the biggest mammoths to actually actually tackle and they needed data on how to do this so they had only poverty indicators and so on and now they're going to have livestock Rel um livelihoods related indicators how livelihoods are getting impacted by different hazards in the country and what it means what kind of households they live in and this will help them to create uh an automated targeting strategy that gives a multi-dimensional vulner vulnerability score and that will enable them to Target people so this is happening from going from poverty targeting to something much more um complicated but happening over the years with different indicators so I think there is there are some examples in the region Bangladesh is also doing it India has done it for some reasion as well thanks I'll stop there Shanti thank you very much and um I I not sure we still have Anna actually we may have lost her I think um I just got a message we may have lost her but I just wanted to close um and as I close I wanted to thank you all so much for joining and um and a special thanks to our presenters Shanty and Anna who have had to get up very early um so that we could hold this webinar in an asia-pacific friendly time thanks to our discussions Peter and Lisa and thanks to um all of your all of you for your questions and your engagement we will follow up with the questions that you have posted and um and make sure that you have answers to those and we look forward to continuing to engage with you all as we navigate the intersections of climate change and social protection the webinar recording and presentations will be available through social protection um. org um the social pr.org website please also remember to watch for the release of the report on which um the webinar today has been based um that will be up on the um defat social protection Publications um web page soon and we'll Um send a message to that you all know when it is published thank you everyone um have a good evening or a good day depending on where you are thank you thanks all thanks everybody bye thank you okay