[Music] come to the Bible expecting God to speak to you and read till he does speak to you now maybe you'll only read one verse meditate on that verse maybe you'll read a whole chapter meditate on that chapter it's not an exaggeration to say that nearly everyone knows who Billy Graham is his ministry of preaching and his life of faithful service from advising Kings and presidents to throngs of everyday people across numerous Nations come with expectancy that every time you open the scriptures God has a message for you even Skeptics cannot deny that Billy Graham had an eternally positive impact upon on the world in his 99 years of life but most people have no idea who his friend and preaching partner was in the early years of the ministry a Canadian named Charles Templeton millions of followers $80 million a year business television contracts at the height of his power he loses his faith but he's too big to quit I mean can you imagine BL Graham coming on television holding up his Bible and say I now reject this I don't believe anymore no an evangelist who by many accounts was a more articulate speaker and Polished orator than Billy so alike were the two evangelists that they were often referred to as the gold dust twins they were both influential in co-founding Tory Johnson's Youth for Christ in 1944 and spoke together often throughout the United States and Europe for the sole purpose of drawing people to Faith In Jesus two young men similar in age calling talents and results the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of this book and the Holy Spirit can interpret this book to you but something happened to them individually in the height of their careers that sent the two friends and co- ministers into opposite trajectories ending with two radically different conclusions 40% 45% of the American people believe literally in Adam and Eve believe literally that the world is only 6,000 years old I mean that's a shocking figure and you can't duck out of it this is a story of two men with two Fates who made two decisions about one [Music] book Charles Templeton was born October 7th 1915 in Toronto Canada with four other siblings in the midst of the depression the family learned to adapt on meager wages everyone in the family had to do their part young Charles picked up drawing and was quite talented at it so after failing to pass the 9th and 10th grade he pursued his Knack of drawing sketches hoping that someone might find Value in his work and purchase them Charles was pleasantly found right the 17-year-old artist was hired onto the Toronto Globe as a sports cartoonist overnight the teenager was making good money and was thoroughly enjoying his job Charles found himself in the very midst of the sports world and everything else associated with it notoriety late night drinking and fawning women were all bonuses he would later write about this time in his life to a boy in his late teens it was the best of all possible worlds but after 4 years the underbelly of his envied job and lifestyle began to show returning home one morning at 3:00 a.m. from a party the young man feeling quite depressed looked into a mirror he didn't like the reflection as he walked to his room his mother heard him in the hallway and called out to him she talked to him about her own faith in Christ Charles would later write about this event as I went down the the hall I was forming a prayer in my head but as I knelt by my bed in the darkness my mind was strangely vacant thoughts and words wouldn't come to focus after a moment it was as though a black blanket had been draped over me a sense of enormous guilt descended and invaded every part of me I was unclean involuntarily I began to pray my face upturned tears streaming the only words I could find were Lord come down Lord come down come down at this same time in the United States near Charlotte North Carolina Billy Graham had just graduated from high school as he struggled through school being the son of a Dairy Farmer his graduation was a feat that many questioned and while the young man had grown up in a Godly and Christian environment he had just made a personal commitment to Jesus during a Revival 2 years earlier under the preaching of Baptist evangelist morai ham like his future friend and preaching partner Charles Templeton Billy was also convicted by a sin and his need for forgiveness that night at the dinner table Billy stopped to inform his family that he had been saved that day while he first enrolled at Bob Jones college in Cleveland Tennessee since it was the closest to home and less expensive than Wheaten he quickly felt the school too legalistic and rigid so only after one semester and racking up nearly enough Dem marage to be kicked out he transferred to Florida Bible Institute and it was there in 1937 that Billy would begin to preach having become mentored by the academic dean of the school John minder Billy joined him to attend a Baptist conference in Pat at Florida when minder was asked to speak that night to a small Church of Baptist preachers he politely declined saying that Billy would be pleased to preach in his place so with no real choice in the matter the 19-year-old awkwardly preached for the first time it was a mixture of four different sermons that he had memorized for Moody press he would later remember that the sermon was very raw the next few years and Billy's life would be transformational he was baptized on December 4th 1938 in Silver Lake Florida ordained to the ministry in a Southern Baptist Church a year later and graduated from Florida Bible Institute in 1940 and so began his humble and long journey into becoming one of the most influential evangelists in America but there was another great evangelist being formed in Canada and the two were soon soon to meet and unite their passion and calling to preach the truths of the Bible to a world on the brink of Another World War by this time Charles had left the Toronto Globe to enter the ministry and to give himself fully to the preaching of the Gospel he had already evangelized all over Michigan New York Indiana Illinois and even further south probably very close to where vill himself was beginning his career as a preacher Charles had met his wife in Grand Rapids Michigan and the couple was married 6 weeks later but soon after in 1941 in the midst of starting a new church with his new wife Charles read a number of books written by famous secular authors and For the First Time In His short life as a follower of Jesus his faith in the veracity and miraculous claims of the Bible was challenged but Charles soon stuffed those troubling questions behind the success of becoming one of North America's top evangelists and so he continued to do what he knew best and before long notable people began to take notice of Charles's Ministry in the spring of 1945 he was invited by a local Pastor named Tor Johnson to speak at Chicago Stadium to a crowd full of young people it was a Youth for Christ rally and the attendance was steadily growing into the thousands backstage among the noise of a boisterous crowd Tori introduced the young Canadian evangelist to the slightly younger Billy Graham and the two preachers became instantaneous friends on the platform just before Billy was about to speak he leaned over to his new friend Charles and said pray for me I'm scared to death soon after a Youth for Christ team was selected to take the message of the Gospel to a war torn Europe Tory Johnson would serve as the president while Billy and Charles would alternate as preachers the tour went well and over the months Charles and Billy's friendship grew as did their success and influence but the questions that had bothered Charles years before could no longer be ignored so at 33 years of age and without formal education for the last 15 years Charles was accepted into the theologically liberal Princeton University to formally seek answers to those doubts that were secretly eroding his faith Charles remembers these three years at Princeton as some of the best in his life among his enjoyable courses Charles would often see Albert Einstein who lived only three houses away from the campus Seminary but although he thoroughly liked his new environment Charles couldn't escape the fact that he was experiencing a real crisis of Faith about the Bible and the person of Jesus and his fears of possibly believing and preaching preaching something not empirically historically or spiritually true was being shared by his friend Billy as [Music] well it was August of 1949 and Billy was 30 years old in Forest Falls California in a Christian Camp speaking to a crowd inside horal Hall no one knew it but having been recently challenged by his friend and fellow Evangelist Billy was now internally questioning the veracity of the Bible and whether he believed it to really be God's spoken word to humanity it was a shocking blow to Billy's confidence that his friend fellow pastor and Bible teacher now believed the scriptures to be flawed outdated and full of superstitions the two had discussed their disagreements and had been civil about their opposite conclusions but if Billy was really honest he still had lingering doubts the weight and the enormity of it all bore down on Billy's Soul so in the dark woods of the night at Forest Home Billy placed his Bible on a random tree stump and cry it out oh god there are many things in this book that I do not understand there are many problems with it for which I have no solution there are many seeming contradictions there are many areas in it that do not seem to correlate with modern science I can't answer some of the philosophical and psycholog logical questions Chuck and others are raising so falling to his knees Billy then resolutely confessed father I'm going to accept this as thy word by faith I'm going to allow Faith to go beyond my intellectual questions and doubts and I will believe this to be your inspired word Billy later recalled in this moment that the Holy Spirit was moving within him and he felt his presence and Power in a new and fresh way one that he hadn't experienced in months for Billy a major Bridge had been crossed on the next day 400 people made a commitment to Jesus and Henrietta MIRS the woman who invited Billy to speak at the camp noted that he taught with more Authority than she had ever seen before and I have come to many points in the Bible that I did not understand and I would get on my knees and I say Lord show it to me and I found the meaning of that passage on my knees by the Holy Spirit and while at first Billy had reluctantly accepted henrietta's invitation to speak at Forest Home he now knew why God led him into that Forest like Jesus being led into the desert a test was finished and a decision was made a decision that would affect the course of Billy's calling and in turn the eternity of millions while Billy was calling people to trust and follow Christ Christ was calling Billy to trust and follow his word Billy's heart and mind were now settled and his friend Charles was settling his while the two friends remained courteous they grew apart from each other knowing their views of the Bible and the person of Jesus were diametrically opposed to each other by the end of Charles's 3 years at Princeton in 1951 his doubts about the Bible had nearly solidified and his faith was no more and yet because of his success and influence he was still offered positions on numerous platforms radio and television Ministries as well as churches all sought him out 1953 Charles found himself living in Manhattan as the Director of evangelism for the Presbyterian Church USA but it wasn't long before the weight of leading others into a theological persuasion that he himself no longer thought true came to a head Charles would later write what right did I have to stand before thousands of people that I had been preaching to Nightly for years using all my persuasive skills to win them to something I was no longer convinced of myself it was a reprehensible thing to do and I must stop it Jack I'm a an agnostic for the simple reason that slowly over a period of time I came to the place where I could no longer believe the things You Must Believe to be a Christian so there's one of two things to do stay in or get out and get out he did Charles left the ministry in 1957 publicly declaring that he was an agnostic at this time his mother whose Faith was real and vibrant was dying from cancer although Charles was with her when she passed she died assuming that her boy was still a believing Christian and in the ministry on top of this Charles and his wife Connie were undergoing a divorce after 18 years of marriage she too was still a Christian and was heavily involved in the church Charles's conclusion about the Bible came with great cost it seemed that all of life was showing me its nether side my faith was gone my marriage was dead my mother was dying I was cutting myself off from the hundreds of friends that I had made during 19 years in the church I was a abandoning people who looked up to me including 36 Menon women who were in the ministry or on the mission field because of my work I felt like a betrayer but there was no real choice I could stay in the ministry paper over my doubts and daily live a lie or I can make the break as Charles made the physical break from the church he was merely following the decision that his heart and mind had made years before similarly as Billy continued in evangelism he too was naturally following the resolution that he had made in the dark Forest years ago and so the two friends had chosen their two separate paths and were now far from each other as the years passed the two naturally grew apart Charles became more involved in television and writing and had even gone on to an event a child resistant medicine cap and a teddy bear that stayed warm throughout the night Billy continued in evangelism and as most people know would become one of the most influential Christian leaders of the 20th century although there are many reasons for Billy's success none could have been as important in the decision he made at Forest Home Billy knew this as did those who were close to him and in 1967 a massive Rock in honor of how Billy overcame doubt that fateful night 18 years before was dedicated at the Christian Conference Center Forest Home in addition to preaching Billy would go on to publish many books on the Christian faith and while not producing as much content as Billy Charles authored some books as well in 1996 just 5 years before his death Charles chronicled his doubts about his faith in his most well-known book entitled farewell to God my reasons for rejecting the Christian faith in straightforward language Templeton deals with such subjects as the creation Fable racial Prejudice in the Bible the identity of Jesus of Nazareth Jesus's alienation from his family the second class status of women in the church the mystery of evil the illusion that prayer works why there is suffering in death and the loss of faith in God soon after the book was published Charles was diagnosed with Alzheimer's but before his passing Charles was interviewed by a curious journalist and once atheist named Lee Strobel upon Charles's resolve in denying Christianity's most foundational claims he surprisingly confessed with tears in his eyes that he missed Jesus Charles Templeton died soon after on June 7th 2001 in Toronto Canada Billy would live for 17 more years with 9 months short of Liv in a century Billy Graham died on February 21st 2018 his last words were recorded by the time you read this I will be in heaven and as I write this I'm looking forward with great anticipation to the day when I will be in God's presence forever two similar men who for a season shared the one Christian faith but over time the two decisions they made about the Bible led to two very different f faiths and two different lives with extremely Divergent endings now that we know what these men thought about the Bible and the place it served or didn't serve in their lives what do you believe and perhaps a better question to ingest is how will that affect you when you step into eternity this story holds a special place in my life directly after I gave my life to the Lord and I surrendered my life to Jesus when I was about 20 years old I pleasantly found myself employed at Forest Home in the San Bernardino Mountains and I was actually working in the same hormell Hall that Billy preached in 50 years before it was a transformational time in my young life it was full of new friends experiences and Adventures in total it was really a whole new life with Christ as the center and it was at Forest Home that I actually preached my first sermon I say that in quotes sermon in quotes because it wasn't really from a Pulpit and it was only given to the peers on my small staff and it was only meant to be a Bible study but however feeble it might have been I treated it like a sermon in preparation in content and and even delivery after afterwards I thought that teaching or preaching might be something that God might have me pursue and I did at Forest Home I would often walk into the surrounding forest and seek God in prayer and at times fasting and a few times a week I would walk by a large rock en shrined behind mirror's lake with a plaque on it honoring the moment in history that Billy Graham experienced victory over his doubts about the Bible in that summer and other succumb I could hardly walk by The Rock without stopping touching the plaque and pondering the story that it told because that rock tells us a story it gives us an incredible account and the lives of Billy and Charles give us great hindsight into the Christian faith and into God's word we started this episode asking what are we to make about the Bible is it reliable do we believe in all of what the Bible says without any questions or have we dismissed all of what it says because we really have too many questions so we want to be intellectually consistent people so what we conclude in our mind about the Bible will be played out in our lives both in this life and in the one to come and so this episode isn't a tale that simply Praises Billy Graham and criticizes Charles Templeton it's it's more like a a sober look into the possibility of rejecting a once real faith in the Bible and therefore and more importantly who the Bible points us to it's also a hopeful account of laying to rest the need for a perfect and complete intellectual understanding of some things that can only be comprehended by academics to a certain degree so I just want to briefly look at some things that we can learn from both Charles and Billy and close with a few thoughts about the Bible and how we should wrestle with it when we find ourselves questioning its veracity so what can we learn from Charles well the first thing is that he was honest in a in a civil but impassioned argument with Charles over the inspiration of the Bible Billy said this he said I believe the Genesis account of creation because it's in the Bible I've discovered something in my Ministry when I take the Bible literally when I Proclaim it as the word of God my preaching has power when I stand on the platform and say God says or the Bible says the Holy Spirit uses me there are results wiser men than you or I have been arguing questions like this for centuries I don't have the time or the intellect to examine on all sides of the theological dispute so I've decided once for all to stop questioning and accept the Bible as God's word and Charles responded saying this he said but Billy you cannot do that you don't dare stop thinking about the most important question in life do it and you begin to die it's an intellectual suicide Charles said to stop thinking about the most important question in life leads to death it's intellectual suicide and Charles is absolutely right here when we start to believe things that are not true or we stop questioning things and stop critically thinking about important questions about life politics religion biology sex really anything then we begin to die we settle for the unknown and we grow comfortable in the Blissful atmosphere of ignorance and this is a sort of death and as Charles aptly points out it's a self-inflicted type of death now I believe the fault of Charles is that he believed that academics would solve everything which is basically a humanistic approach to answer questions that rise far above scholarly Pursuits so while I I think Charles was correct to seriously think about his faith in the Bible I think he was clearly ly wrong in where he landed early in my Christian Life I read his book farewell to God my reasons for rejecting the Christian faith and I I didn't find it compelling meaning I think that there was and there are genuinely good answers for the questions that Templeton brought up but what I really want to highlight in Charles's life was that he was not only honest but that he was intell ually consistent Jack I'm a an agnostic for the simple reason that slowly over a period of time I came to the place where I could no longer believe the things you must believe to be a Christian so there's one of two things to do stay in or get out and Charles obviously and clearly got out think about it I mean how wrong would it have been for Charles to continue to have embraced the Evangelist lifestyle with all of the fame and fortune accompanied by it all while not really believing it himself he could have easily done that many have done that before and still do that today and the consequences are disastrous not only for the person but for the Christian message itself uh I got out Jimmy CER stayed in and the end result of that were all kinds of problems in his life and I want to bring this up because there is an alternative to getting out which many people have done and and still try to do today but it's a horrible alternative instead of getting out Charles could have stayed in and he could have tried to change the Gospel of Jesus or change the person of God or change certain messages found in the Bible and ultimately and overtly make the Bible fit his beliefs as opposed to the other way around and that's the whole point of of our episode 23 when where we deal with liberal Theology and how certain Christians try to alter the core tenants of the faith to fit them or to fit uh what the world thought it should be and that's not Christianity and that was uh John Ma's concern so while we can wholeheartedly commend Charles again not in where he landed with his agnosticism but that he was honest with himself and others he left notoriety and good pay and fandom and he did that without trying to change Christianity to fit his own academic and personal sensibilities and for that we can Praise Him and we can also look to Billy as an example to us because he was honest as well he too wrestled with his faith and his trust in the veracity of the Bible and this shouldn't be overlooked because there are many Christian leaders especially those in the Limelight who choose not to deal with their personal doubts or struggles for fear of criticism and and possible rejection but Billy didn't do this and like Charles he too grappled with his faith in the Bible but the source of his validation was ultimately from from God and not from man and as much as I love formal education and apologetics they have their respective place and they only go so far and I think Billy understood that if not before his night at Forest home then definitely afterwards so one distinction between Billy and Charles among their many similarities as as young men might be that where Charles leaned into academics to answer certain questions of the faith Billy ultimately leaned into God and again I I can't say enough about how much an intellectual apologetical and Scholastic approach can help in our understanding of the Bible and our faith but it's it's nothing when compared to the holy spirit's direct work and Revelation in our lives and those two are are not mutually exclusive and often they work together but if I had to choose one I would choose God's illumination over man's best academic pursuit of Understanding God's word God wants to speak to us and he often does that through his spirit in Psalm 119:18 David says open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law likewise uh Paul in the book of uh 1 Corinthians chapter 2 he says that God reveals things to us directly and specifically through his spirit and in Christian theology this is called the doctrine of Illumination and it's probably one of the most overlooked teachings in uh the Christian faith to today but this was experienced by Billy himself and it should be experienced by all Christians so let me conclude with this as you might question the Bible or parts of the Bible or the person of Jesus what should you do first thing is this take the advice of Templeton and do not stop thinking and pursuing answers to these important questions do not be lazy and do not give up and do not give in to intellectual suicide secondly take the example of of Billy and pursue God in understanding his word understand that God is not afraid of your questions and concerns and that he really does want to answer you I think when you do both of these things that you will find rest and you will find answers answers that lead you into a deeper place of faith and trust in God and His written word [Music] as always if you enjoyed this episode and learned something please share it and write a review of the show written reviews are huge if you're on Facebook you can invite your friends to join our salvation and stuff community group if you're on Instagram you can point your friends to my profile at Mr mik coot if you are not on any social media platforms then good for you uh but you could also share your favorite episodes with your friends on your smartphone and we we've been heard in over 49 countries around the world and there's talk of even adding a new sister podcast that I'm thinking and praying about we also have uh super comfy salvation and stuffed t-shirts and nice coffee mugs and you can purchase both by either going to our website at Salvation and stuff.com and donating or going to Salvation and stuff patreon page and pledging a donation to the show if you want to do that just go to uh type up salvation and stuff and patreon and it should take you to my page thanks again for listening I appreciate you all I appreciate the the time that you allow me to be in your home and I look forward to the next time that we can meet take care [Music]