when you see a thousand people doing the same thing why would you want to be the thousandth and first i can just go on All the I'm trying with with AI What would you like to say to the AI naysayers you have no say in the matter All this stuff is just changing every single day We haven't seen the best or the craziest of what it's going to be able to do And not only do I think it'll create a trillionaire but it could be just one dude in a basement That's how crazy it could be So take us into your world then What are you using AI for on a day-to-day oh my goodness everything Um never fear a storm Be ready to adapt The skill is staying true to ourselves Mark first of all welcome to High Performance Thanks for joining us Thanks for having me I'm excited to do this So you said the world's first trillionaires will be created by the AI industry What makes you believe that um because the industry is changing so rapidly the technology is changing so quickly Um somebody will come up with a new way to utilize it in a way we never thought about before I mean all this stuff is just changing every single day And just like we saw from the early days of PCs early days of networks early days of internet early days of mobile phones early days of 5G there's always something bigger and better that that's created by an innovative entrepreneur but AI just dwarfs all that We haven't seen the best or the craziest of what it's going to be able to do And not only do I think it'll create a trillionaire but it could be just one dude in a basement That's how crazy it could be Wow And you know what i I I'm becoming a bit obsessed with AI And every time I talk to people about it all they do is say to me "Oh well it's it's you know it's not as good as the human brain It still makes mistakes." They're kind of almost they're still not daring to believe how incredible it could be Yeah I mean it's just the very beginning right you know we're still in in the um preseason as people just figure the whole thing out But as as it becomes more advanced and I'm not saying we're going to get the Terminator right i'm not saying you know you know all of a sudden there's going to be you know robots that are smarter smarter than people like the movie AI but we'll find ways to make our lives better more interesting um do work better more effectively um so that we all want this thing I mean remember the early days of PCs people like I don't need that It's I've been doing it the right way forever Then we had the internet and there were people like what's this internet thing why do we need it then it was smartphones it was like take pictures with my phone you know Snapchat what the hell was that we'll find something that's equivalent for AI and then five years after we were using it people like how did will be how did I live without it and people will make a lot of money if you can come up with that idea so take us into your world then what are you using AI for on a day-to-day oh my goodness everything Um it's insane how much I'm using it right now Like I wrote software a long time ago Um and I haven't kept up with my skills and so I downloaded this application replet lit and I and you just type in okay here's the application I want to write I want to be able to compare pharmacy costs between my company and these other companies and every time the price changes send me alerts And I just typed that in and within a few minutes it had the first pass of the software and then I just ran it multiple times and gave it new ideas and things I wanted and it wrote the software for me Now it's not perfect software and an advanced um programmer could do a better job but it was crazy you know um for the Mavs and for other businesses We're using all the new text to video stuff where you can just say you know show me a guy carrying in a rugby ball and that drop kicks it into um a basketball basket and it'll give you you know 10 seconds of that in you know a minute just being able to be creative Um whether it's from a business a programming a video I'm trying to find new ways there Um I recently I had this thing called Aphib and I had an ablasion and so I had to track all the I was doing you know the drugs I was taking and in the past you know you might have downloaded an app and mark things down and the time I just told you know I went to chat GPT and I was like I need you to track all this stuff for me I'm going to tell you when I take my medicine and when I do my workout and I want you to record it all And if there's something there that I write down that you think is not um right or I should be concerned about let me know And damn if it doesn't do it Now you've got to be careful like talking to anybody else You know it's like talking to a friend who you think knows a lot about something You still got to be careful and talk to an expert But being able to do the process and just being having things identified that I might not have known to look for was insane Just insane I mean you know now they've got the way that you know it's kind of like Siri for Chat GPT um on an Android phone where I can just talk to it and you get caught up talking to it like it's a person I mean I can just go on all the I'm trying with with AI And I'm not here to tell you that it's going to replace everybody's job It won't But the things that you do and the things that you like to do if you're creative innovative whatever it may be or you're just bored you know it might end up being the best alternative to boredom Just you know okay Chat Chief PT create a game that does this this and this that we can play together so I won't be bored sitting on my couch It It's incredible And what's the balance mark of still trusting your gut over trusting the raw data i mean you know when you trust your gut you're trusting your experience And with chat with the large language models you know the chat GPTs perplexities Geminis and everything you get to you get to feed it information that effectively are things that you know and you understand your gut And so like there's times when I don't think the answer is what it should be or I think it's wrong And I'll say you know I don't think you're right I need you to show me the evidence of how you got to this decision And it's no different than talking to a friend or a work colleague and just calling right no I don't think you're right I think you're wrong You know show me why you think this is right So I guess the answer is you know even though it's artificial intelligence it doesn't necessarily mean it's always going to be right now or forever And so you've got to question it And whether you use your intuition or just recognize that you see something's wrong it's part of the process to to say "No you know chat GPT I think you're wrong Prove it." Just like if you're talking to a friend or even a doctor for that matter you know asking you know your AI to prove it will is should be part of your process I remember seeing a quote from you um a while back and I'm paraphrasing here You said something like whenever I see someone doing something the way it's always been done or saying I'm doing it the way it's supposed to be done that's a red flag for me Oh absolutely I I think um the quote was you know when you see somebody when you see a thousand people doing the same thing why would you want to be the thousands and first we don't need another t kind kind of Uber We don't need another Door Dash You know you it's the people who come up with the the new idea and have the the guts to go out and turn it into a business that changed the world And it doesn't have to be like something way out and crazy You know Steve Jobs have has this line or had this line that I always remember He said "Everything's a remix." And basically what that means is as you learn new things you just keep on adding new ideas to what you've learned And one day that leads to a business concept or a business you can start or something you want to change in your life And I think you know whether it's AI or any other tool that's going to become more applicable and easier for people You know one thing I've taken on this show from conversations with the likes of Dr Rangan strategy and so many wellness experts is that if you want to make a difference to your life then you need to have consistent habits Habits are the thing that make a difference over time And the reason why they're so important is because for me a bit like you my life is full My life is full of trying to fit in training and filming making TV shows running businesses being a dad So I can't also add stuff that over complicates my routine And that's why AG1 has been a part of my life and my wife's life for years now It's one scoop mixed with water and we're done And inside over 70 ingredients vitamins minerals gut friendly bacteria and adaptogens that all work together to support my energy my focus and my recovery This is the kind of simple effective habit that helps to keep my health in check without adding extra stress or extra time to my life And right now I've got an offer for you with £68 Subscribe and you will get five travel packs vitamin D3 and K2 and the AG1 welcome kit for free All you have to do is head to drink ag.com/hyperformance That's drinkag1.com/hyperformance or click the link in the description to get started Check it out So what would you say makes an idea great then Mark people liking it You know we all have millions of ideas and 99.99% of them are junk But you know I think the process particularly if you want it to lead to starting a business the process is pretty much the same for everybody you know you get this idea You know you could be you know having drinks with your your friends You could be you know just sitting around you know thinking whatever it may be but you get the idea and you go to your friends and you go you know I have this idea What do you think and that's the first pass If they say "Oh well I like the idea." Then typically what happens is you go to Google or Chatt or Gemini now And now you can say and this is you know now just thinking about this in real time I mean you finally can start to say "Okay well my friends like this idea." And in the past you would go to Google and just keep on asking a questions to see if anybody had done it before Um now you can go to Chat GPT and just say "Hey has anybody tried this idea before and if so show me who and what and how it works." And if Chat GPT or Gemini come back and say "Nope we can't find anybody who's done it." It's like okay maybe this is a unique good idea And then you go back to the the AI and you say write me a business plan And then you just keep on iterating it over and over and over again Which means you know since these apps are free for the most part um to try any kid any age 10 12 15 20 30 80 90 can use these tools now to do things that you might have needed a business education for before You might have gone to university and taken business Now you've got your own little tutor you've got a professor in your phone that can guide you through starting it Now that doesn't mean the business is going to be successful You still have to get customers You still have to find ways to you know get them to pay you money um for your product or service And you've got to figure out how to build these things But in the past that that barrier to entry might have been your expertise You know I can't tell you how many times whether it was on Shark Tank or wherever where people have asked me you know what do I do next and I might not have time to give them answers or they might not have access to somebody to give them answers But now using AI you can do these things AI is a great equalizer you know whether it's you me um somebody off the street or Peter Jones you know um it's going to give us all the the for the most part a similar answer So you get access to expertise you've never had before and that's going to help a lot of people do a lot of really cool things Now you mentioned different technologies earlier Mark whether it was the telephone or whether it was when we first started getting access to the internet and it's often said that the first two stages of of of mass changes people ridicule it and then and then they oppose it What would you like to say to the AI naysayers um you have no say in the matter It's just you know like you mentioned um a good answer You know I've been in the technology business a long time When I first started selling PCs in the 80s people were like "I don't need that shit." Then I started connecting them together and that's how I built my first company by connecting PCs together And I would hear "Well you know I just need to carry a floppy disc from one PC to the next." Fast forward to the start of the internet I can't tell you how many times when we started Audionet in 1995 which was the first commercial streaming company people thought I was an idiot They were like "Mark if I want to watch something I'll turn on the television If I want to listen to something I'll turn on the radio or you know buy a CD for my CD player." I'm like "No you don't understand." They're like "You're an idiot." But I believed in it enough that I was like I'm going for it Um either it'll be huge or I'm an idiot And so you're right most people condemn things when they first happen because you know if you're not an entrepreneur and you're not looking for new innovative things you want your life to just be the way you want it Um but then when you see other people using it and you realize the value that's when people come around So for people who maybe are not an entrepreneur they're not a business person maybe they're a housewife or a dad or maybe they're 14 years old and still at school and they're listening to this what's the first thing that you would love them to do using AI right now how do they begin this journey if they've never been ask a question Download Gemini from Google Download Chat GPT Um just one of those two and just ask your questions about anything but don't you know assume the answers are right And when you find something that you don't agree with you know tell tell the AI you don't agree with it you know by trying it and testing it Like you school kids are already using AI no matter what I don't care whether it's the UK or America or anywhere in the world they are using it as ways to you know get ahead in school and you know write papers whatever it may be But for the housewives the the dad who you know is not into technology um whoever it may be just try it I mean you will be stunned But you have to realize that it's not actually thinking AI doesn't and won't think It's not actually smart But what it can do is find information and package it in a way that people can understand and that will save you a lot of time It can all like my wife my wife was like fifth AI poo you know why would I do it you know I've got my together and I was like baby just try it for recipes you know you want it to be under you can ask your questions you want it to be under x calories you want it to have you know this amount of magnesium or whatever find me a recipe that tastes good or you know tell me the ingredients that I should get and she was like oh My god it can find anything That's what it is It's just like knowing somebody that has the world's best memory and who can package things together in a way that you can understand Um and just by playing with it you will be stunned And then you can do things like tracking things or um you know just you know like I said I had this ablation and I wanted to see okay search all the research not just some of it all the research and I'm typing this in and tell me whether or not I can take melatonin with this drug I have to take and it first came back and said yes but then I said I want to see the research and there was one research paper that said here's where you have to be careful and it applied to And so just having access to that will be an incredible benefit Now still talk to your doctor Like I said not all the answers are right But just being able to ask you questions all day any day about anything is incredible Mark tell us what you think of Donald Trump's approach to AI He's already revoked Joe Biden's October 2023 AI order I think he talks a lot about a hands-off innovation first approach What do you think of President Trump's approach to AI um that's a great question Um there's two ways to approach AI I think from a government perspective One is to try to manage and regulate the creation and the other option is to regulate and manage the output And I think it's impossible to regulate the creation of it because you can just take a PC Any kid can take a PC and download open- source versions and create its own their own version and there's nothing anybody can do about it And if they do something that's bad you ain't going to stop it But you know you can find the outputs and where they're being used and try to regulate them You know I'm trying to think of a good analogy Like you can't stop people from buying Bitcoin or using Bitcoin but if they try to buy something illegal you can focus on that or try to do something illegal with that Um and I think AI is the same way And as far as how we're managing it I don't think they've made a decision yet on which approach to take I think that's still up in the air Um but we'll see And I'm pretty sure cuz you know I watched the people that are supposed to be in charge of AI for the US government and they haven't said anything about it Can I ask you about Donald Trump Mark and ask he's obviously a great salesman in the White House who can sell himself and his policies impressively but do you feel a good salesman makes a good president well I think a good salesman could be a good president Um I don't think they're mutually exclusive I think the sales ability can get you elected but you still got to be you know a good president to be a good president And that takes a whole lot more Um you know there's things he's done that I agree with and a lot of things he's done that I don't agree with And we are where we are You know it's unfortunate Um I guess the law of unintended consequences You saw what happened in Australia You saw what happened in Canada I don't know the impact it's having on the UK but I'm sure you know what the impact he's having on your politics is different today than it was the day he was elected This podcast is called High Performance Do you think Donald Trump is a high performer no Why not um in my mind to be a high performer you have to be curious You have to always be learning You have to be strategic in how you take information and figure out not only what's in it for you or the country but how you're going to intersect with other countries other stakeholders if you will other populations And I just don't think that plays to its strengths Mark did you see the comments this weekend attributed to Warren Buffett who described America as a cathedral with a casino attached to it and he warned against the danger of the casino taking over the cathedral I'd be interested in your views on that Yeah I mean you know money's a great motivator but it also gives you proximity to power And when that power and money loses compassion then it can create problems And I think that's that's what we're looking at I think we're on the precipice of that being a problem I don't know that we're all the way there Um you know you can't just be transactional No you know no matter what nation you are no matter who you are you you've got to understand the short term and the long term And I think we've lost focus You know things like trade balances Yeah Trade balances are part of the equation but they're not the only variable that that makes for good or bad Um deficits are a bigger part of the equation but it's not the only variable So I think what Warren was saying is you have to understand and find an equilibrium where you have to keep the cathe cathedral um as being humble and in service of of man you know man and mankind um and the casino in order to grow the casino along with you know the population you you you will take risks but you've got to keep an eye on people who are the card sharks and the card counters And that's still not a positive And when you find them you got to expel them So you know I think that's what he was referring to And I I think he's right I don't know that there's an easy way to explain it though You You're a hugely successful businessman Mark but you're straight away talking about compassion at the heart of being the American president Not talking about business and deals being at the heart of being the American president What is the risk do you think of having a president that doesn't seem to show compassion for others i mean it's only been a few months We're finding out Um you know it's the around and find out presidency Um and so we don't know yet And it's hard to predict You know he's not predictable And so um look he he's done a bunch of things he said he would do that a lot of people and to a certain extent not completely but including me um agree with You know dealing with immigration that's a global problem You guys face that every day in the UK and across Europe It's a problem He fixed that problem dealing with deportations and how do you you know the result of over immigration I don't think he's doing it the right way but he's doing it and he promised he would do it you know dealing with crypto um dealing with um our SEC right how they enforce regulations I think he's doing it the right way so there are things that you can point to and say you know what we needed him to do this and he's doing just what he promised and that's not a bad thing but but you know there there's everything else and while those things are important you know dealing with people and understanding like working with Elon um for Doge there's nothing wrong with cutting you know and cuts are are what was needed because there was too much spending but cutting it all at once and indiscriminately so that you know small towns are impacted more and will suffer more tariffs you know doing it on a non-strategic basis so that the whole world could you know be brought to its knees economically So I think you know I I'm not trying to sound millymouth and talk around it but I'm just trying to be brutally honest There were things that you can't argue with that he did correctly but there are a lot of things that I think could have greater global impact like tariffs that he's doing incorrectly And would you describe Elon Musk who's been so central to the White House as a high performer yeah I would for sure but it doesn't make him a high performer at everything Um you know obviously his success financially and for his businesses speaks for itself and you can't do all those things multiple times and not be a high performer But it doesn't mean everything you learned in the your business life applies to government or uh you know a country or globally And I think that's where he lost the plot that by doing Doge like he did Twitter or like he's done at Tesla where you know his approach is cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut you know you're going to make mistakes bring back the 10% that are in the mistake lake um and everything will be okay That doesn't work in government That doesn't work when people's livelihoods um aren't just responsible to you It's one thing you can go get another job potentially but when you cut and um destabilize communities that is a different problem And I think now he's come to the realization that maybe he didn't do it the exact right way So I mean and look I'm not trying to say this is exclusively Elon We all including me have you know have a way that I have a way that I approach technology a way that I approach business and it's not always right I've had businesses fail I've had people you know quit on me because they didn't like the way I was doing it You know you live and you learn But when it was my business and people decided to work at my company they knew exactly what the the greater what the potential for gain or what the potential for loss was Somebody who's just you know living their life in a in the countryside in a small town and all of a sudden the museum that they worked at is cut because of Doge That's a different thing You know they they didn't want to be part of of Elon's puzzle And so I think you know it works for him in his business life It didn't work for him in his government life I'd love to talk to you Mark about the importance of compassion because I think sometimes particularly in business it's something that we overlook You know people think business is all about the bottom line It's about the turnover It's about the e bit It's about the profit It's about the exit Would you have had the incredible success you've had in business without the ability to connect emotionally to the people that you're in business with oh no And what's the secret to doing that you know it's learning the hard way I um I remember my first business Micro Solutions and um just being a yeller and I wrote this little book How to Win at the Sport of Business and I even had chapters in there saying it's okay to yell Um but I think what I missed and I would have been more effective if I was nicer You know nice makes you more profitable Nice People want to deal with people who are nice I think the days are long gone of the tyrant business person you know that will just step on anybody to get where they want to go Um I don't think that works anymore You know back in the day if you did something stupid and you were mean to somebody they quit and maybe told this other company they went to work for that Mark is a jerk Now they posted on social media and the world knows you're a jerk And so I think there's different um a different benefit analysis And I say this because I just think being nice Being compassionate is good for business It's you can't just step on everybody because people will find out and they won't want to do business with you And plus you know people who work for you when you care for them when you connect to them when you align your goals of the company to their personal goals they work harder They'll stick around And when you let them when you let them share in the upside by giving them stock in the company you know they're going to they're going to do more for you They're going to help you more They're going to make make me smarter They're going to complement my skills better they're going to create less stress for everybody And so I mean being compassionate being nice I think is a core business competency for for anybody in business If you were to write the book now Winning at the Sport of Business Mark what would chapter one be today be curious Yeah Because so much is changing I mean we started this conversation off with AI and you and I know pretty much the same amount about AI because it's changing so rapidly And so I would tell people don't be afraid be curious get in there and play with it Learn as much as you can I used to always have this attitude Um and to this day you know there when it comes to technology there are there are two people There are the people who created it and everybody else And I was tied for everybody with everybody else and how much I knew about it once it was released And so in my mind if I put in the effort I could get ahead of everybody else and just be behind the creators And I think by being curious you find things that you get really excited about and that you want to spend time with And when you do that you can learn a lot and try different things And when you find something that you love to do people don't quit things that they love to do But the the start to all that is being curious So that would be my first chapter So can you give us an example of where curiosity has really paid off for you then oh everywhere There's nothing that I've done that didn't start with curiosity I mean being a kid and loving to read um trying new jobs being fired from a job um you know everything that I've ever done started with me just reading something um and saying "Well you know this is crazy but let's try it this way and maybe that's an opportunity for me." I don't think there's anything I've ever done that didn't start with me being curious and reading or watching something And that's what I try to tell my kids you know now they don't listen They're teenagers but at least I'll tell them so they know at some point that you know the greatest skill you can have is being curious and loving to learn I think your your life story Mark is inspirational and fascinating and equal measure What is left of the boy who sold bin bags doortodoor with the man who's sitting in front of us today everything I mean the only thing that's different in my mind are the wrinkles you know and the grays Um so do you still feel like that kid oh yeah for sure Like this is going to sound bizaro but I always get these offers to accept awards We want to award you with this this this and this You know we want to give you a lifetime achievement award And I'm like Brad I'm just getting started I don't want you know I don't want to be like oh yeah let's wind it down Warren Buffett just retired at 95 Someone asked me for a quote on Warren Buffett And you know what my quote was is it was just this morning It's like and and I know Warren I've had you know not best friends but I've gone to Dairy Queen and had ice cream with him And what I said is my quote for Warren was I can't wait to see what he does next And he's 95 years old And that's where I want to be I want to be that that guy at 95 talking coming up with ideas and telling some 20-year-old I'm going to bust their ass you know in a business that I'm starting So how do we how do we all cultivate a mindset like that what are the kind of daily behaviors that you do if you like that keep you coming back for more that keep you sitting here in front of us Mark you know I'm sure you won't mind me saying you're 66 years old you are talking like a 26 year old Like how how do you have this mindset i'm competitive as right you know um I played rugby for 15 years You guys can relate to that Um you know I did sports as much as I could until my body broke down But business is the ultimate sport That's why I named that book How to Compete at the Sport of Business Um because it is a sport and it doesn't matter how tall you are how fast you are how big you are If you can you know use your brain and leverage it to you know create new opportunities Doesn't matter how old you are And I just like that competition You know it used to be when I started I was always the youngest when I walked in the room and I was like "This is so cool There I got all these old guys here." Now I'm the oldest and I'm like "This is so cool." You know I've got all these young people here and I'm going to kick their ass That's fun to me and that's you know that's always going to drive me That'll never end So is it about competing or is it about winning for you it's about competing And you know when I compete I want to win You know it's like there's certain sports I won't play Like I don't golf I golf one time in my life in 1989 and I was the guy who you know was ready to break his clubs over his knees and throw his clubs and all that because I'm so competitive and I sucked And it was like I'm going to have to put in a lot of time to get good at this I'm not going to do it I love to compete to win If I'm going to start a business it's to be the best business in that category Um like we have cost plusddrugs.com that we started Um it launched in 2022 just over three years ago I mean I was in my 60s and here we are We're changing the healthc care industry in the United States Whatever I do next I'll try to do it the same way Mark I'd really love to talk to you about two things really about hard work and about luck Because I sit here as someone who owns a few businesses I host a podcast I only can dream of being as successful as you one day But sometimes I feel like I'm lying to people when they send me a message on Instagram or reach out on LinkedIn or talk to me in the street and they say "Look I really want to be successful I'm driven I just want to make it happen." And I kind of find myself glibly going "Well you know keep working hard and you never know." Or just keep plugging away But the truth is I know hundreds of people that work even harder than me you know maybe even harder than you and it just hasn't happened for them So how do we give true and honest advice to young people starting out on their journeys about luck about hard work it's a hard thing Yeah I mean luck is more about timing Are you guys rugby guys at all Okay So when I played when I started in college in the lineouts there were no lifts right you had to jump And so I could jump And so I could be the second guy in the lineout or I can be the fourth guy in the lineout And I played a lot more and started a squad because you know I could jump and get the ball and I was strong enough I could break through the line Then I I don't even know the date when they changed it to the lifts in the lineup I probably wouldn't have played So that was luck That was total luck that I was you know born at the right time When I started Audionet and it turned into Broadcast.com we went public right at the very exact time that the internet stock market was going nuts and the bubble was in place I probably wouldn't be a billionaire if the timing for our company wasn't the exact right time That doesn't mean we wouldn't have been successful We would have been Doesn't mean I wouldn't have been wealthy I already was But to be a billionaire for sure you've got to be lucky And I don't care what anybody says Timing matters You know if you're just you know for smaller businesses it's more effort and maybe some luck in terms of hey you know somebody or you learned how to use AI better or you know somebody down the street made the exact product that you were looking to sell That's luck you know Um but you know like they say you know luck is when preparation meets opportunity that still applies If you don't put in the work if you don't you know put in the the effort to learn and to always iterate and make yourself smarter and make your business better then it doesn't matter how lucky you'll be Brilliant Can I talk to you then about how luck kind of sits with with your with your mindset because you can work hard you can be lucky you can be in the right place at the right time but I think without that mindset of optimism without believing that great things are going to come your way often they don't What's your what's the secret to your mindset you know if doesn't pan out you've just got to make a decision you know um sometimes it won't I mean I've had things fail and it was like it's just not going to work and you just you know you you just keep on banging and banging and banging and you know I've run out of money I've gotten fired from jobs Um I thought I had something special with a company and it just blew up Um you know you've just if you I'll go back to learning and iterating If you're learning and iterating and you're getting smarter it'll it should be self-evident why something will or will not work And when it becomes self-evident it won't work You know you just got to take lick your wounds and move on to the next thing There's no shame in failing I say it all the time You know you people don't understand or know my failures It really doesn't matter how many times I failed I only had to be right one time You know you can fail as many times as you want but if you're right one time then everybody's going to tell you how lucky you are And that's okay you know because people don't remember other people's failures So I love that bit you said there Mark around the about the iteration the the willingness to lean in and and and explore your efforts Would you tell us a little bit more about how you go about doing that to the most effective way possible i mean in a business context you talk to your customers you talk to your prospects In a personal context you know you you do the work It's it's no different than how sports have changed The science applied to rugby basketball whatever the sport has changed dramatically I mean you see people who are faster bigger stronger and all those things came from somebody asking the question how do I get better and then trying really hard to find the answer Is it technique business has its own technique Where are you learning how are you learning going back to our AI conversation AI changes technique inside of business AI might will change process inside of business So I'm always looking how can I improve my process how can I um you know ask questions of stakeholders whoever they may be real or virtual so that if I'm running into inhibitors if I'm running into roadblocks um how can I get past them and so for me you know it's just always pushing a limit and seeing okay can I go further and in a positive way not to the detriment of somebody else It's not like okay I'm gonna take advantage of this person or I'm gonna be ruthless and step on them I don't I don't like to do business that way Um I won't do business that way It's more you know why is this person competing better than me why is their business doing better than me what is it that I can do to get past them to understand better um and then just trying new things all the time Um and again I'll go back to AI today when those things happen I can go to chatpt and Gemini each and separately say you know this is what this other company is doing What would you suggest or give me five ideas or 10 ideas that I can use to try to compete better as an athlete as a business person as a parent you know whatever it may be I mean I've asked AI for better dad jokes for my kids And what did it come back with did you hear about the two the two antennas they got married go on The wedding was okay but the reception was incredible Ah great I never thought we'd get dad jokes on a conversation with you Mark but I'm loving it all the same Um I want to talk about how you get your team to to live up to your standards to to go the direction you want them to go I'm sure you've read the book Radical Cander We were joined on the podcast by Adam Grant who spoke to us about being a disagreeable giver Tell your team how high you you you you expect them to perform and then tell them that's where they have to be Um what is the secret to getting the very best out of the people around you setting standards and holding people accountable to them Yeah it's hiring great people who complement my skill set You know at this point I'm not in the micromanage let me manage this small team and and build them up in the company It's more let me hire people that are smarter than me complement my skill set and align people's interests And to me that that's the most important thing Can you align the interests of your managers and your employees with the interests of the company and let them know that as we succeed you succeed And also allow them to share in that financial success I have stock you get stock or if I can't give you stock you give bonuses based off of our performance And the you know the ultimate rule of thumb is if you create stress you're not going to work for me very long I want people who are looking to reduce my stress and looking to reduce the stress of people around them but I'll recognize who you are as an individual I won't try to change you because you know people have different skill sets Some people you know like I always try to work with people who are very anal You know if you tell them ABC they get ABC perfect because I'm typically a mess You know I'm trying to think of the next thing and do the next thing I'm not very detail oriented Um so I try to partner with people who are but you know if you find somebody who's ABC and perfect at it recognize they're an ABC person Some people if you tell them to do ABC more like me you know they're thinking about DEF and you've got to recognize that if I want this person to work with me this is going to be the person who thinks of the next thing Um but they may not understand that you know GHI even exists And so you've got to understand the skill sets of the people that you're hiring and how they complement me and the management team and how we all can get them to align so that it's all in our best interest And then always make sure they realize if there's a payout in the end if I sell the company or whatever it may be that they share in that payout Um and that they recognize that where there's upside for one there's upside for all I think that's one of the great failings of entrepreneurs and CEOs They try to you know hold on and retain everything And I think that's hugely a mistake Um I think no matter how big or small the company you've got to share the rewards You've got to let everybody own part of the company And what about working hard Mark how important is it to lead by example when it comes to that characteristic yeah I mean it's working hard means different things for different people You know if you're a working person and you're getting up and you've got to be at work at 7 a.m and you're doing something physical that has one meeting and you have to respect that If you're in an office like I said you may be an ABC person and working hard is just making sure you don't make mistakes And so you know for me in terms of setting an example I try to be accessible um and as accessible as quickly as possible I do almost everything via email just like you guys sent me an email you know and when somebody wants to send me an email I'm going to respond as quickly as possible if they work for me You know I'm going to put them ahead of everybody else and get right back to them And you know if it's two in the morning and I'm getting up to take a pee because I'm 66 years old and I got a pee in the morning then you know I'm checking my email and I'm responding and they're thinking I'm working at 2 in the morning And so um I try to be as responsive as possible um to everybody And when you do that I think people will respect that and and respond accordingly I love your phrase um you need to work like someone else is working 24 hours a day to take your job And there's so much conversation now about work life balance about protecting ourselves mentally and physically Is there such a thing as too much work do you think yeah there's always some too much everything Um you can't kill yourself but you have to understand your goal What why are you doing what you're doing if it's just a job hey I want to make enough money to pay my bills and get home at five o'clock and play with my kids If that is your goal then go home at five o'clock and make that your goal and make it if it's your company so that you can achieve that If you're working for somebody else make sure everybody understands that's your goal and that's fine But if your goal is to be wealthy like you know I didn't grow up wealthy I used to drive around and look at the big houses you know and dream about you know someday owning one and living in one Um I used to dream of retiring by the age of 35 so I can go around and party like a rockstar because I wanted to own my time My my parents they didn't own their time They they had to work on somebody else's schedule And so when I talk about working like somebody is working 24 hours a day to take it away from you that's what I mean I mean you have to set your goal And if you want your goal to be that you want to be wealthy you want to live in the big house you want to be able to retire then you ain't going to have no work life balance because somebody is working You know I talked before about you know I don't care how old I am If I'm still looking to compete if you're going home at six and I'm staying and working as long as it takes I'm going to kick your ass And you have to recognize that if your mission is to not have your ass kicked in your business and to be you know extremely financially successful if that's how you define success then you are not going to have work life balance and you have to work like someone's trying to take it all away from you But you have to decide what your goal is and work backwards from that So what's your goal today then Mark um to work like someone's trying to take it all away from me Um that's what I do with cost plusdrugs.com I mean my goal today is to change the healthc care industry in the United States It's a mess Nobody you know comes to the United States or in the United States says you know what the way we handle the financial side of the healthcare industry is perfect Let's not change a thing Everybody thinks it's a mess And so I'm trying to fix that mess We started cost plusddrugs.com and we brought transparency We reduced the cost of medications dramatically for the entire country PE big companies you know hundred billion dollar companies had to change how they did business because of our little company that just really rolled out three years ago I want to keep on doing that I want to extend it from pharmacy to all of healthcare Um and make it so that you know health care is a right in this country and everybody can afford what they need when they need it And I think I'll get there But that's what's driving me because I'm competing with these you know hund not just billion-dollar companies but some of the biggest hundred plus billion dollar companies in the country and they're not going to just let me take it away from them I often see when I go on in Instagram or LinkedIn or I look at career advice online I see everyone saying just follow your passion guys Follow your passion How do you feel about that advice Mark not a fan If I followed my passion you know I'd still be trying to play baseball or basketball Um you know it's not about passion It's where you put your time As we go through life you know we go to school we find different things We're going to be passionate about things You know everybody dreams about their future and you find these things that you dream about that you'd love to do I would have loved to play basketball I would have loved to made the Eagles as a rugby player but there was no way that was happening I was passionate about it It ain't it wasn't going to happen Um but when it came to business I realized that I loved it I loved learning I was curious about every single thing I could find And then all of a sudden I got into technology almost accidentally because that was the only place I can get a job And I was like "Oh shit." You know let me teach myself um programming I like it I mean I I could tell you stories about sitting with a box of ribs at my place and writing software programs and barbecue sauce getting everywhere and then looking up and it had been 24 hours that I had been programming It was just just so intense but I loved every minute of it And to this day like I'll just be reading and learning more and more and more about healthcare And every time I find a nugget you know and so then I every time I find a nugget I'll use it to my advantage But the point being that you know I found something that not only was I passionate about but more importantly I was willing to put as much time as it took to be great at it And like I said nobody quits anything they're good at and definitely doesn't quit anything they're great at Right That makes sense because I I I feel like you sound really passionate about changing the healthcare industry It sounds to me like you're really passionate about the way that you used to write software You're certainly passionate about AI you're passionate about business in the States but the reason why you don't like the phrase follow your passion is because really your phrase would be marry your passion with intense hard work and a desire to be successful Right passion alone is not enough Is that what you're saying depends how old you are right your passions as a kid and when I say kid in your 20s may not be the same passions that you're going to find in the in you know as you grow out of school you know whether it's music athleticism writing poetry you know um t taking philosophy in university whatever it is and I get your point of marrying time and passion but I truly believe that you you know the number One thing once you graduate from school if you go to school is you know you spent four years in college let's say paying to learn and once you get out of school try as many different jobs as you can You're getting paid to learn And when you're getting paid to learn if you go to a job and it sucks and it's just not you and you don't see a path go to the next job and then go to the next job It's not like it was when I was a kid and if you didn't spend five years or you wanted to work there 50 years and get a gold watch It's not like that at all Everybody's basically a free agent all the time And you know it's okay to bounce around till you find something that clicks for you But to your point if you can be passionate about that you can then marry your time because it takes time to get good at something it the the amount of passion you have doesn't make you better doesn't make you a better programming programmer it doesn't make you a better rugby player it doesn't make you a better business person how you spend your time does how curious you are how much you learn how much you're willing to learn that is what makes you better at the things you love to do and that's why I always say don't follow your passions follow your time so when you were bouncing around yourself between those jobs in in your early years Mark what was the biggest lesson that you learned that you could pass on to to us and our and our audience just because I was a good salesperson doesn't mean I wouldn't get fired Um you know I got I got fired from a job at Your Business Software my first real job in Dallas Um because I didn't listen to the boss cuz I thought if I went and picked up a check that would have earned me a a commission and earned them sales the company needed that that would have been okay He fired me on the spot Um I think you know you those lessons come from all angles but you have to realize that and I I had to learn that I had to find my fit And I hadn't really thought about it this way before but you know my fit I wasn't the ABC guy I was somebody looking for D E F G H I K JK And um I had to find a I had to realize that I was not going to be a good employee no matter where I worked I was going to be a lousy employee because I was more concerned about where I was going next and what I was going to learn and think of next And that just didn't fit And I think people have to try to you know recognize who you know just be self-aware you know and try to recognize who you are as a person and where your best fit is and what your own goals are Like I said if you want to work 9 to5 so be it Nothing wrong with that at all But you have to you have to be honest with yourself You're not going to you know start the next huge company and make a zillion dollars Can I talk to you about setting goals and achieving them i mean I sit here very envious of you because I've always wanted to own my own football club I'd love to buy Norwich City I'm not sure it's ever going to happen But you did buy the club you loved the Dallas Mavericks What was the secret to setting that target and then making it happen i got rich There we go That's what I've got to solve That's the riddle I have to solve You know I was at a game with my then girlfriend now wife and it was the first game of the season and you know whether it's you know football or basketball first game of the season everybody is hyped Everybody's all excited And there was no energy in the arena Um and I was thinking to myself I could do better than this And I was like well let's try it and see what happens and go for it And so that's what I did And a month later I owned the team Wow Did you not have any doubts fears imposter syndrome about knowing whether you actually would be able to make things better no cuz you know the the team had got had been voted the worst professional sports franchise of the '9s So I had only one direction to go and that was up And everybody from the players to the fans was looking for anybody new because the guy who owned it before me wasn't a basketball fan um he bought it for real estate reasons and so I knew I only had one direction to go and I committed to it I let everybody all the players know that we were committed to winning and either you were along for the ride and you were going to do what you needed to do to get better um and to be a high performer or we'll just part as friends and you know you know I got I was fortunate you talk about luck I had one of the best player actually I had two of the best players of all time MVP winners and Steve Nash and Dirk Nitzky and great players like Michael Finley Shawn Bradley and others and they had just been misused and and actually you know they were young and and they looked at the team as just being a job as opposed to you know a path to a championship And that's really the attitude that I changed But I was lucky that I had these Hall of Fame players right there you know on our team already What did you learn from those Hall of Fame players um you know it was amazing I learned how again how to be nice and how to be nice to fans Like it's kind of a shock you know it was a shock to me anyways when you know people were asking for my autograph and I'd go someplace and there'd be 20 cameras and media was always asking me questions or criticizing me for that matter and talking to those guys who had grown up as star athletes you know they they showed they set an example for me on how to treat fans you know how to understand NBA players the grind of being a professional athlete and to respect the athletes for you know what they've been able to accomplish they were you know there's 450 you know roster NBA players at that time and you were one of 450 out of the millions playing worldwide and to get there takes a lot and I mean they really taught me to respect that and I think that led to me being a whole lot more respectful of everybody Mark can you share with us some of the lessons that you learned on how to improve the team's culture and by definition their performance Yeah I mean it it was easy because they had been so cheap beforehand but things like staying at a nice hotel I remember the first meeting I had with the players and you know the travel grind particularly back then of the NBA You could have a game in Salt Lake City Utah or Denver drive an hour to the airport get to Oakland California at 3:00 in the morning and you really haven't had a chance to eat anything yet And the players were like "We got to go find a 7-Eleven at 3:00 in the morning in Oakland California and we weren't staying at a nice hotel in a nice neighborhood You know do you want us doing that?" And you know it was it was an obvious and easy response We upgraded the hotels We brought food to the games and and to the hotels Um we made sure that there was 24-hour room service wherever we went We made it so that you know they stayed on beds that were big enough for them so they could sleep Just things that seemed to be common sense Another thing I did that really changed the NBA when I got to the Mavs we literally spent more money on computer training than we did on skill development for um the Mavs for the players And so I went and had some of our former players you know we had 15 people on the roster We got 15 former players to work with each and every one of them on skill development so that they had somebody there who had been in the NBA and because we had a young team could work with them and show them the ropes and show them things that work for them in game in preparation how to be better at preparing for for a game how to watch film whatever it may be And you know when I got there the Mavs were 9 and 23 We finished out the season 31-9 Didn't make the playoffs my first half year Um but after that we won 50ome games for the next 10 years Um made it to the finals and lost in 2006 and won in 2011 I totally understand your desire to buy the mouths because you supported them I understand a lot less people's desire to get involved in sports teams thousands of miles away You know we've now got half the Premier League owned by American investors We've got 24 English football clubs with American investors What do you think that's about um that's a great question Nobody's ever asked me that It's a great question and maybe I'll piss some people off It's about money Good It's about money for a big chunk Like I've got a friend um that used to work for the Mavs Bob that owns um a team in Spain and he bought the team in a third league It was CD Catalan maybe um just to prove a point that his approach to team building works and he's been very successful by all accounts He had one approach but there are a lot of people who see it as you know an underutilized investment they they took you know an entrepreneurial attitude and looked at the Premier League teams in other teams across Europe um in the world and said you know I can leverage the fan base I can create more revenue and I'm not opposed to investing that revenue into the team to perform better but you know I think it's primarily money So there there's three reasons money fame and trying to prove a point And I think in terms of performance on the field and I think the lower leagues it's about trying to prove a point like Ryan Reynolds and the things they're done with they've done with Rexom like my you know Bob Herelus um and what he's done at CD Catalan and then and I'm just speaking from the outside looking in I don't know these folks I've been asked pretty much to to buy or invest in every English Premier League team I'm just not a soccer guy Um and I I wouldn't do it simply because I didn't have the emotional capital to be able to do it right It's the same reason I didn't buy a WNBA team in Dallas because I didn't have the emotional capital to be able to you know commit to it the way I think fans want an owner to commit And I'm not trying to downplay um Americans who invest in those teams and say they don't want to win but I think they look at it first and foremost as a portfolio item um in their investment portfolios with the hope to win Um even if you they find themselves investing a ton of money to try to improve performance stadiums etc I really think that's that's why Can I just talk to you about what I think is a masterstroke deal that you pulled off when you sold 73% of the Mavs but you still kept control of the basketball operation which obviously is the part of the team and the and that deal that you're so passionate about and love so much I think it's an amazing deal to pull off to sell it to make the money but to retain the control What's the art of a good deal well two things there Um I I was supposed to have control of basketball It didn't work out that way very quickly Um I kind of got pushed aside and that was really my I wouldn't say it's my choice It was I didn't like it but because we were winning and on our way to the finals I didn't want to disrupt it Um and so the odd the deal maybe wasn't as perfect as you think it was since I didn't get what I expected but at the same time I got what I needed And that what I needed was the ability to step away at some point um and not focus on all these ancillary things more on the economic side than the basketball side you know to compete in the NBA these days And it's I'm sure it's the same with the Premier League You know it's not only about the game itself and selling tickets It's building the new arena or stadium It's building all the the real estate around the stadium um or arena And I just didn't know about that And I didn't want to be in a position where I was looking at spending a billion dollars or more on something I really didn't know very much about and that I wasn't excited to learn about And so you know giving that was one thing Um and then the second thing was my kids you know when it happened were 13 um 16 and 19 when um I sold the interest in the Mavs and I didn't want to put them in a position where they would get the criticisms that I got you know or all the that you know I had to take in social media and just you know the meanness of fans I mean you know I'm sure that happens over there as well where fans get upset and you know it was my choice to buy the Mavs It's not it wasn't necessarily their choice to be in a position or forced to be in a position to run the Mavs if I wasn't able to And then and then there was estate issues the way the estate tax work and stuff like that that impacted it as well And so it was more a personal financial decision than an emotional decision And it wasn't as good a deal as I got because I put too much of an emphasis on um on the emotional side but it was the deal that I needed if that makes sense because I was more concerned about these external things And look you know the bottom line I negotiate from a different perspective than today than I did before cuz my next dollar is not going to change my life particularly now you know and it's not going to change my kids' life and it's not going to change their kids' lives But quality of life is critical to me Um and more critical for you know for my kids And like any parent you you never know if you're going to get it right And you're never going to you don't know until after the fact whether you you made the decisions your kids like and how they respond But you know is what I thought was the right thing to do Um and so I'll go forward with it But generally you know the art of the deal if you will is you know I try to put myself in the shoes of the people I'm dealing with and look to find out what their wins are You know what puts them in a better position and then look to see if giving them what they need allows me to not only get what I need but also to to be happy about what I got And that's typically the way I look at deals And I think you know that's part of the problem in the global economy right now People you know are you know in our case with the US we're using tariffs and we're saying we have to win We don't care if you get what you need At least that's the way it's looked so far I think you know in the UK the same types of things happen Across the world the same types of things happen And so I just I think you've got to put people in a position when you negotiate with them that they walk out they feel like they got what they needed I got what I needed So there's you know there's no retrading There's no going back on it and everybody speaks favorably about everybody you know so you're ready to go for the next deal Mark before we let you go and thanks for this fascinating conversation some quickfire questions So the first one the three non-negotiable behaviors that matter the most to you I mean in terms of interpersonal compassion um being nice I guess you can put those two together Being respectful um is two And then being helpful Brilliant If you could go back to one moment of your life what would it be and why um oh my goodness I don't know if you know you want to be younger right hurts now I played rugby for a long time I got replacement hips I got fingers that go in the wrong directions Um I got herniated discs And so I go back before then but other than that no You know I mean I'd love to be 40 years younger but I wouldn't I wouldn't do it Um it's everybody else's turn It's my kids' turn and I want to see what's best for them And I think my experiences will help them and where I can have an impact on the world if I can I don't I'm not a narcissist to think that I can you know I'm smart I can change things other people can't But if I can you know it'll come because of the experiences I have If you could give teenage Mark just starting out one piece of advice what would you tell him don't it up What's the single best piece of advice you've ever received and why my dad had so many good ways of approaching things you know things like he always valued time more than anything else And I think that drove me Um you know when I graduated from college he gave me a watch And I wore that watch every single day I worked And then when I sold Micro Solutions my first company I took that watch off and promised myself I'd never wear a watch again because that meant I had to work to other people's time And now I wear an eyewatch for non clock reasons but I think valuing time was the best lesson he taught me Um because there's never enough of it and you can't get it back It's not something you can buy and it's not something you can own What a lovely answer And Mark the final question the thing you'd like to leave ringing in people's ears who've listened to this conversation the golden rule if you like to living a high performance life I don't think there's one golden rule I think it's you know what wake up every morning with a smile on your face and find a way to find joy and amazing if you do that cuz look I mean I was broke sleeping on the floor but I never was miserable I got fired lost lost you know most of our money but I never was miserable I could always find a reason to smile And that to me was a real lesson that I carried forward You know Damon John on Shark Tank calls it the power of broke When you're broke and you got nothing you only got one direction you can go And if you recognize that path and and are positive about it then you're going to live a good life Because you know people always also ask me you know can money buy you happiness and it's like it's such a cliche but the reality is if you were miserable when you were broke there's a good chance you're going to be miserable when you're rich If you are happy and enjoyed your life when you were broke despite the obstacles you're gonna be really really really happy when you make money Brilliant Mark the end of a great conversation Thank you so much for your time This is great guys I really appreciate it You know right that I love hosting high performance but something else that I really love is taking the lessons and learnings from these conversations onto a live stage setting And whether I'm standing in a small room in front of 10 people or myself and Damian are on a stage in front of 5,000 people we just love to take lessons from the likes of Gordon Ramsay Fernando Alonso Dame Stephanie Shirley Usain Bolt out into the world sharing them with people like you And we've been to South Africa we've been across Europe we've been to Dubai we've been to the United States but we want to do more We are really passionate about spreading the lessons and the learnings from high performance So if you want myself and Damian to come and spend time with you and your business then all you have to do is hit the link below I promise you by the time we finished you will have a very different view about what high performance really is Thanks for watching