All right, I think we can get started. Uh, so, uh, first of all, Bannistry, thank you so much for being here. I know you have a very busy schedule. Um, so we really appreciate you taking the time to be here for the ZK Monk community. Uh, mentorship of course is something that's very valuable to us and important. Um so thank you so much for your time and uh for anyone who might not know Vanish is the founder of Ferma and she's a renowned cryptographer and Mina Mina protocol architects and she also has a PhD in cryptography from UCLA with professor Amit Sahai and her research has been published in numerous seinal papers at top tier conferences so she's a real expert um so Yeah. Uh, Vanishry, feel free to take it away and maybe we could take questions in the end if we have time. Amazing. Um, it's amazing to be here. Um, it's always invigorating to see uh people getting excited about Zik and wanting to learn ZK. So, I appreciate this opportunity. Um, cool. So um we can have this as conversational as people want and the goal is for me to get a chance to add value right so it depends on what you all want to learn more about and less about so please uh raise hand and uh I will not go into the presentation mode I'll just uh go this way so that I can I can track if there are any questions oh Um right actually let me also thanks an for the introduction. Let me also quickly uh say a little bit more about myself and about what we are doing. Um and then we can get right into the uh presentation. Um like an said my background is in cryptography. I've I I got into crypto the traditional way of uh learning and contributing to cryptography which is the underpinning um technology of uh crypto right and uh um my uh in my previous lives I I focused on designing um ZK proof systems proving them secure uh it was a lot of u math intensive um work and um uh Amit Sahai that you mentioned, he was my adviser and he has done some foundational work. For example, he he introduced the introduced the notion of security or ZK. He he um gave us the framework for what it means for a proof system to be secure and he did some very very foundational work. So it was amazing to work with him. uh and um but I I had always been a product person in my mind um and wanted to build something and um add value that way. Um that's why uh while working at Mina and while working at another project called midnight I I c I came across this gap in the world um in the ZK space and forma is forma was born to bridge that gap and what was that gap? the gap was all the there was this uh ZK boom starting to happen and everybody was figuring out their infrastructure by themselves. Um there was no off-the-shelf infrastructure, a universal infrastructure that everybody could use. Um and I felt the pain while working at Nina uh while working at midnight because it wasn't easy to to figure out the mechanism design of it. It it wasn't easy to figure out where to access them. It the the whole infrastructure pain um was clear. So we we went and built this onestop layer for infrastructure for CK any proof system any chain any app um that needs proof you just send a proof request and forma is the universal proof generation layer and it generates proof proof for you. So that's what we built and uh and to tell you a little bit more about what where we are uh we are in test net phase three this probably is the last phase as far as the institutional um supply partners are concerned on on the on the demand side we have these these customers zkync which is one of the largest producers of uh zero knowledge cruise they are one of our customers scroll is another uh one of our customers Um and and we have a bunch of other customers. So they want proofs to be very very their proofs are really heavy. I'm saying all this because this is also an information in in in ZK proving isn't easy. Proving is very very it tends to be very very heavy. Um and um that's why we we can't have like little phones or laptops that are generating proofs on the on the supply side. We are a marketplace. There is demand, there's supply like Uber. Um on the supply side, we have these heavy machines mostly 490s, A100s. Um so that's where we are. uh and uh of and and Perma is very very exciting and we very very happy to be on this path and um yeah let's let's get right into the the discussion. Um I I I don't know uh how much of how much of depth you may already have with ZK. Um so feel free to stop feel free to uh ask me to pace up and uh go to the next slides which I'm happy to do and go deeper. Um but let's start at uh a very high level. Let's start with some some some intuition just to set the stage. So what is the gay? Um let let's start from the notion of encryption right encryption we all understand and um encryption is this cryptographic tool it helps us to do something right uh it's a cryptographic tool it it helps us to achieve a function and achieve a security every time you think about cryptography um a tool in cryptography you should always think about what what's the functionality and what's the security it always comes with these two things So similarly for we all know encryption what's the functionality for encryption you send a message from one party to another party what's the security nobody else gets to another message right that's that's encryption's functionality and security now what is zk what is its functionality what is its security its functionality is that um let's say you're approver I'm a verifier. There are two parties. Somebody proves, somebody verifies. And the prover um the functionality is that the prover can convince the verifier of some true facts. That's that's the functionality. You can you you can do this. This is the functionality. It happens. What is the security? What are the bad things that cannot happen? The bad things that cannot happen is no matter how strong you are as a poor, you cannot convince me of a wrong statement. You can only convince me of right statements. You cannot convince me of a wrong statement. Um let's say there is a pseudo puzzle with no answer at all. You cannot convince me that hey I have an answer. It actually works but I'm not going to reveal the answer but it actually works. you if you send me a proof um for that statement, I will never verify. That's the that's the security property of uh ZK. So um so so that's the right way to understand ZK. Um what is its functionality? What is its um security? If you look at traditional papers, the way they explain is the is CK has three properties. one is uh completeness uh which is that it's actually the functionality that that you can indeed convince me that's the functionality part um I'm saying this just so when you're reading papers you know how to map what we just discussed to what they're saying the functionality is the completeness um there are two security properties one is um that you cannot convince me of a wrong statement and then there is this additional private privacy security property which is that uh like in the example that we uh had you have a sudoku puzzle you know a solution I don't know the solution uh you want to convince me that you know the solution without revealing the solution to me how can you do that with CK you don't have to reveal the solution but if you have the solution you can create a proof that does not reveal the solution but I can just by looking at the proof I can get convinced that um you do have a a solution and I don't know that solution right there's this privacy property where you're able to selectively hide the reason why your statement is true. So this is uh so let me summarize uh we understood what ZK is from the perspective of functionality and the two security properties. So ZK uh let's let's really zoom out and understand where we are in this uh evolution of ZK. ZK started decades ago. Uh and um uh um when when it so so uh quick anecdote is that um the the folks who uh invented uh two of the folks who invented um invented uh uh ZK they were one sorry one of them was an adviser of my adviser um Shafi Goldwer was my advisor's adviser And Ahmed, I think, also had Sylvio Mikalli on his uh uh on his uh um uh I think in his defense committee. Um so so um so this was this was invented long long long ago decades ago and after that what happened was ZK was one of the things that was worked on in cryptography like there there are multi-body computation protocols uh fully homorphic encryption protocols um uh um different kinds of encryption protocols different kinds of signatures string signatures group signatures there are a lot of things in cryptography uh people were working on all of them and this was just one of them. ZK was just one of them and of course it there were advancements year after year after year. Uh there were papers there were advancements in papers um advancements that were written in conference papers. And fast forward to crypto to crypto. Uh Bitcoin came um Ethereum came then came Zcash. Zcash was one of the first projects that used ZK um in such a mass manner and it kind of got everybody's attention um especially it kind of got investors attention. It kind of got developers attention and bu so far by now billions of dollars have been poured into ZK and ZK has grown so uh it has grown by leaps and bounds and it um the the amount Zcash was indeed the OG um made and and they actually Zcash contributed a lot to the space a lot they don't get enough credit for it. Um so um where we are right now is after these uh billions of dollars uh poured in and uh there was so much of brain power dedicated to uh ZK these days. ZK has taken sort of a center stage as far as cryptography is concerned in uh crypto and um right now we are at a p we are at a time where embracing ZK is so easy and you can actually add value. I think this is just a very very very uh fruit um hyper potentially this if if you get into ZK now you it's a very fruitful endeavor um why because you um have a lot of tools it's not like you know you it's not the Zcash time zcash time they had to figure it all out now you have a lot of tools lot of advance advancements embracing z is so easy and we as an industry have uh learned a lot about where ZK is useful and um let's let's kind of double click um on why it is important why ZK is important right now. So we we talked about we talked about how so much money is poured in into into uh ZK and ZK has advanced but why did people pour into ZK? Why didn't people pour that kind of money into fully homorphic encryption for example? Why didn't people pour this into some isotric other uh cryp cryptography protocols like um I don't know ring signatures group signatures um some indistinguishability offiscation that was another cool aspect that that cryptographers worked on but it it never saw the day zk did zk of all uh cryptographic uh tools did why because it's so applicable Especially in our industry, it's so applicable. What ZK brings is is is this uh uh trustless integrity proof, right? Where you uh don't have to trust anybody and they can do some work and they can convince you that they did some work. um that they can convince you that they did some work. But um uh where um there there are actually um um two areas. Let's uh divide our whole um let's divide the use cases into two parts, right? one part where um the the uh privacy part the privacy aspect of uh Zika is useful. The other part where um the integrity the easy integrity verification part is useful um the part where uh Z zero knowledge part of ZK is useful is the part it it's it's it's it's useful in our industry but let's first talk about the other part where uh easy integrity verification is useful that's exactly what is getting used in ZK rollups ZK bridges etc. So what is happening is uh when we said you can I can verify right you you you did some you did some proof and I can verify I as a verifier I don't have to put a lot of effort in verifying right that's the succinctness property of uh zero knowledge proofs I don't have to put a lot of uh uh time and uh energy into verifying um even if you let's say you have uh terabytes of data and you want to prove something about that data, you you do all the work processing the terabytes of data and you create a proof and that proof is still very very very little and it doesn't depend on the size of how much work you did. It's still that consistent small size. You have um zk proofs like that. There are other kinds of zk proofs but these are the popular ones. This is a popular property. Um and uh there's a success property with which I can verify. Right? There's this this property there is a category there is category number one um of uh use cases that uh use this property of zero knowledge proofs and they are like zk rollup zk bridges um um [Music] it's it's um how how do you characterize how do you characterize you look at a use case what property should you you use. So the answer to that question to that question is whenever you have two parties, right? Whenever you have two parties um the the there one part one party does the work the other party needs to verify that work but they don't trust each other. Whenever something like this happens, Zika is a great tool. Um this happens a lot in in in our industry like um for example in ZK roll-ups right there is this rollup sequencer that is um and that that is rollup infrastructure that is that is uh taking a lot of um transactions bundling them into uh one uh single piece and then putting that on on the base layer. And then you say that I'm not using the base layer for every transaction, but I'm putting them all together and then using the base layer infrastructure only once in a while when I have enough of the bundle. And here there is someone who is bundling the transaction, who is sequencing them correctly, who is making sure that um there are certain rules in in that rollup network that are met. Um, somebody's doing that, somebody's taking care of that. Maybe one party or multiple parties. Let's not worry about that there. Somebody's doing that, but that's not the base layer. So, the base layer has no reason to trust whatever these other parties are doing in in the rollup scenario. So, what do you do? Um, naive way. Hey, uh, base layer anyway, uh, executes transactions, right? So, these are these are also transactions. Maybe we post all the transactions. We we just make a list of all the transactions and dump them onto the layer one. But that that uh uh defeats the purpose because you are making the base layer work the same amount. There is no use of rollup. Now you want the uh roll you you want the base layer to do less work. Um so you want to give the base layer just a little proof for this bundle of transactions a little proof for this long amount of uh work and the way you do it is is with pseudon knowledge proofs that's why there are zk rollups right they they do exactly this where they put together a bunch of transactions they uh sequence them they uh create a proof of some correctness um and that gets uh verified on the uh on the base layer And so this is one uh category right this is one category of uh use cases of zk there is this other category of use cases of ck uh which which you which utilize the zero knowledge property of of zk and just to recall uh what is zero knowledge you uh prove something to somebody but you hide why that thing is true um at least some information about why it's true, you you can hide. And that is the zero knowledge property where um uh where where by looking at the proof, the verifier gets to know nothing about that uh about the hidden information except for the fact that it corroborates your statement. Now, um what are some examples of um what are some examples of of use cases where uh some popular examples of use cases where um where ZK property of zero knowledge proofs is useful. One is um I really like the uh example of zero knowledge identity where what what happens without ZK. You go to you go to a bar, you have you have your uh driver's license and it it says your date of birth. The bouncer looks at your date of birth. Uh oh yeah, you are indeed uh over 21 years of over some threshold of age. you you're welcome. Um so that that bouncer you don't know that bouncer you don't know in what uh um you don't know uh whether that person is making note of your address whether that person whether that person has so much more there's so much more information on that driver your first name your last name it b it basically helps you it be becomes this you know there there are so many services that have you uh um that have you show your driver's license info as the secret, right? You you're supposed to keep it secret. Um and so so you for for for personal safety reasons, for uh physical safety reasons, for for um uh digital security reasons, you shouldn't be sharing all that information. And it's it's a sorry state that uh we are having to just uh flash our um uh entire uh ID uh information to anybody who wants a little bit of information. They all they want to know is whether you're above you're above the uh age limit to uh go and have trick. Now uh how can Zika help? Zigg can help uh by using the Ziggy property of Sonos. What what you can do is you can um you can hide your address, your uh exact date of birth, your first name, your last name, uh your um uh the the the fact the exact signature from the um authority who issued that identity card to you. All of that can be hidden and the only fact is that uh you can prove this statement. This authority has certified uh on something uh and that something shows that I'm about uh 21 years of age. There is that sentence doesn't reveal anything more than what is needed. Um and you can you can send a proof uh you can send a proof uh to that person. And one of the amazing projects that are working on this is uh world chain where um they are using uh some sort of identity there there is a notion of identity and you can actually add other notions of identity age and other aspects of identity um and and there's this one you can think about one single notion of identity and you can prove various things of about your identity in different situations. Um so that's an example. Um there there are a few other projects ZK email uh etc that are using ZK property of uh zero cru there there are two amazing um uh protocols which are in the space um Aztec and Labyrinth they are they are introducing uh privacy to they are introducing privacy to to the space and they're coming at it from different angles but But but I really like these two projects and they're very strong teams. Um so yeah, I think I think this this is kind this is just just to zoom out and quickly summarize here. Um we understood what CK is and we understood why it's important and how it is important um in today's um uh time uh in crypto. Now on the note of why CK matters there is one thing that before we move on there is one very very important uh aspect that is uh um Ethereum's Ethereum embracing ZK. ZK is is becoming the the the core enabler of everything that Ethereum wants to do now and in the future. um for one for one for efficiency for sure right now with this initiative of ETH groups. So what what ETH groups is is that it it really fits this this this framework testing framework of whether ZK is the right tool or not. And the and the and why it really fits this framework is that in in Ethereum right in any in in a consensus protocol like Ethereums you have a block producer who who does some work right and and then there are other people who verify that work. There is one person who is doing that work but there are a lot of people that are verifying that work. um in what is happening without zero knowledge proofs is that 1% does the work for everybody to verify they redo the work an inefficient way of uh of leading life right so instead of that what you can do is one person does the work and generates a proof and everybody else verifies the proof it's such a small amount of work to verify that large amount of um small amount amount of work to verify uh that a large amount of work was done correctly. Um so ETH proofs is is is such a it's uh it's this resounding uh resounding emphasis to the world that hey look zero know zero knowledge proofs are such a such such an important tool to our industry and we are embracing it so so so uh tightly right now. Um, so check them out. I think the website is eat proofs.org and uh we are actually generating proofs for them. We are using one of the heaviest proof systems. Um that's why it's taking so so long. We are not we haven't built those those proof systems. Our goal at pharma is just to generate proofs. We are giving the infrastructure for we are a universal uh uh proving infrastructure which means that um we are credibly neutral in terms of which proof system we will use but whichever the proof system um is going to help Ethereum we we we're going to take them and and generate proofs and this is just an amazing initiative uh by um Ethereum Foundation. Cool. Moving on. I think this is what um I I uh wanted to emphasize. Um I I I wish there was um somebody uh like I I I wish I I wish um that this information is more available that you know how to get into CK is more available because there is just a lot. It is so so so easy to get overwhelmed by the amount of uh information by the amount of activity there is so much of it just moves so fast let's say you start with the I'll give you an example you think that this is a great proof system you start you really want to learn about that proof system you take uh a bunch of papers really learn about it in one month the world has gone way farther you're not uh you're you can it is so hard to uh keep up with the pace of uh this space. So what do we do? What do we do? Right. Um there there I I made I made three categories here. I think it's very important to hone in on a category. really understand what you want to do. Depending on your strengths and your passion and then understand what is it that you should you should do without without a strategy like this it is very easy to spend a lot of time without actually doing um without actually uh going further. So um the three categories the first category is the foundations category. Think of these as layers. Foundations category is where you have these algorithms, the proof systems. You have uh you can think about the work of optimizing these proof systems. You can think about the work of uh proving these proof systems secure. Um you can think about okay these are the current proof systems. How do I op how do I make them faster make them cheaper? How do I squeeze out um uh um maybe time in in in um some algorithm? How do I reduce the amount of how do I um uh reduce the amount of work done by the very fire? There's there's so much of uh work that can be done on the foundations uh layer and this is an active area. Many people are working on this area and things are moving at the pace of um something significant on a daily basis. Um so that's foundations. You should you should pick that if you're if you're mathematically abandoned. If if uh if algorithms uh speak to you, if you like reading papers, if you like um if you have a sense of what is secure, what is not secure, if you have a if you like uh cryptography uh in general, this is a great uh uh direction. This is how I personally uh got into uh crypto. This was this was my entry point um into crypto. The second one is infrastructure and this is where I currently live. um pro so what what are what what are the kinds of infrastructure you can build in zk in for infrastructure you don't need to do know the entire depths of zk you don't need to know exactly how this proof system works you don't know you don't need to know how why um how given two proof systems what exactly are the different algorithms specific algorithms that are used to make it work you don't need to know all that but you do need to have a good understanding of uh ZK. You need to have a good understanding of the space. You need to have a good understanding of demand uh in the space. You need to have an intuition on where the space is going to see uh what you want to build. So a few things that are getting built that are um that are uh useful are one is of course proof market. Anybody who has embraced CK to generate proofs um it's hard to generate proofs on your own. You have to spin up an entire uh infra uh infrastructure network and uh you have to figure out the mechanism. You have to run it. You have to maintain it. You have to uh deploy it etc. It it's not that easy. Instead instead you have proof markets. And the second one is um one you can do is there are existing proof markets but but you can you can get in by helping these proof markets do some in integrations. Um Perma has this universal proof market and we are integrating a lot of proof systems lot of applications and there is integration work. This is a this is a peripheral work but still useful. You'll understand the space. You'll understand um you'll you're at this intersection of uh of of applications. You're at this intersection of algorithms and and um uh infrastructure. On the other side, you're at this you're at this in intersecting area and uh great tense um and uh lowrisk uh way of getting to know the space. The third uh example here is roll-ups. uh ziki rollups specifically and rollups roll-ups as a service. uh these are things that people are people have built people are still building that's another uh bunch of categories and then the third one is I think the more exciting one um where you can think about applications now is probably a good time to think about applications where you have algorithms you have infrastructure you now we now need applications so um like I was mentioning there are two categories of applications One one is um that uses the succinct integrity verification of uh zero knowledge proofs and the other one is that uh that that uses uh the privacy aspect of zero knowledge proofs the one so we we got a problem here which is that ZKVMs you would have heard ZKVMs that that's part of foundations people have built ZKVMs um and what ZKVMs do is it it you adopt ZK easy adopt zero knowledge proofs tech easily but they typically don't come with the zero knowledge property they haven't designed or most of them haven't designed or implemented uh zero knowledge property within um their zkms so you basically use these zkms for the first category which is the user which is the um uh succinct integrity verification property um so it is very in in this time and age you could you could still work with uh uh applications where uh privacy is a concern and for that s there is circom there there is noir and there are these there are these uh tools that you can use but there there are less um um their UX is a little bit less there are there are better uh toolkits that are coming to make uh using these um these uh things easier these um uh circuit builders easier. So uh still still uh the world uh still you haven't hit the hit end there. Uh there is still some possibility um that you can build uh applications where privacy is important um with ZK. But you can think about other categories like user integrity uh where where you want to where you want to um prove so there is an application there's a user who does something um the user shouldn't be sharing some information there is there is a little bit of uh um work that they're doing but let's say you don't you don't want to know the entirety u sorry you let's say you want you want to have have proof you can you can have that uh proof verification there is a little bit There is privacy aspect here but um it is very hard to think about applications where uh you're going to use the uh uh the integrity the succinct integrity verification property. It typically is used in at the infrastructure level at the at the apps level. uh most of the applications that I can think of are are using uh zero knowledge property where you use zero knowledge at the user level and you you have um you have uh uh the zk property getting used and you you have integrity while having privacy of some data. Um but this is this is the this is the world right now. Um that that's like an open question. One one thing that you can do is you can take all these ADMs and see how um you can add zero knowledge property. Apparently it actually should be very very easy to add uh zero zero knowledge property given when you're designing something when you're building building some building something um building the zero knowledge proof system a lot of work is in achieving succinct in integrity verification property. only a little bit of work is needed to add zero knowledge property. So you can take that as an open problem. Uh look at some popular CKVMs and nanzero knowledge property. That's that's uh that's one call to action probably. That's one another way to get involved. And uh um also to mention um here are a few entry points um depending on what you want to do. Um Dan Bernet, Professor Dan Bonet from Stanford, he's he speaks so eloquently. He speaks uh he his his information is at such an intuitive level. He has some muks. he he has um uh someone corsera uh on cryptography and and I think any material where he's talking and uh it's about zero knowledge proofs or about cryptography they are golden uh so I would highly re if you are at an at an entry level where you're where you're deciding where to um how how to gain whichever direction you're going to go I highly highly recommend you get those basics uh in and Dan Bon's uh courses are probably a great starting point. And um I did a bunch of um I did a bunch of um videos with House of CK. House of CK is phenomenal. Uh they are they are shipping content um so well. Um I did a bunch bunch of um bunch of videos with them where I talked about intuition of CK. There is no math. There is no um there are a few jargon and and the way I introduce jargon in those videos is is at an intuitive level because you need to know the language if you want to be in the space. You need to know the language. But you want some somebody you want a resource that teaches you uh those jargon at an intuitive level. They need to mean something. They need to connect. They need you need to understand what that really means. There has to be a translation from that language to our language. Uh so you're welcome to watch those videos. Um there they should be on House of ZK's um uh Twitter. Uh I I I I think they they they have posted it um on their um Twitter account. um it should also be on my account. Um and then there are hackathons. These are a great way to I would highly recommend depending on even even if you just want even if you just want to build at the foundation level, even if you just want to focus at the infrastructure level, I think hackathons are a great way to understand where people are going, where is the mask going, um what are the pains of people who are building something. This is such a great way to understand it and you really understand a lot better by doing things. There are a lot of hackathons happening and um one pro one we are potentially planning is is one in Q1 next year but but the but there are still a lot happening. So please look for hackathons and participate in hackathons. Um and uh if you want to get into Zik, it's such a heavy heavy heavy space. There is a lot of uh advancements there is it's it's not a stagnant one. It's not a boring one for sure. So you do need to to keep up with it to to keep it to to make sure that what you're doing is exciting. You need to bring in the passion. And I think these are the ingredients that that will help you. the the the these are some sources of um these are some sources that can help you resources that can help you um getting to ZK. Um, let me see. I think that that is pretty pretty much the um overview information I had. And um, let me see. Yeah, you guys have some questions. It seems see uh, go ahead, please. Uh, can I go? Yep. Go ahead, please. Yeah. Uh, hi. So, uh, this might be a little bit of a crazy question, but I wanted to like, uh, uh, pick on something you mentioned both at the beginning and when you're talking about slide five and you're talking about, uh, the intuition behind security. Um, and at least the intuition I have is that the reason these things are secure is because if if you have like one proof, there are too many guesses for you to make uh, for you to make it accurately like, okay, this is exactly what the underlying secret is. And that's sort of what determines the the security of of a hash or or or a zk proof. Uh but but uh and mostly people talk about you know quantum computing being the thing that it can do so much compute that eventually it'll break SH 256 and everything else. Uh little skeptical of that but that a separate thing. I'm kind of wondering if we're missing the the elephant in the room which is that big data as it currently exists with like you know Amazon, Walmart, Target. uh they do a lot of data analytics to find out very specific things about people and I think there was like 10 years ago there was that thing that uh they found out a girl was pregnant before her father knew and uh did something and that was 2013 and in fact the Zcash founder even mentions this in uh one of his Devcon talks and and you can only imagine it's gotten better since then. So uh is it something to worry about if they turn all that uh sort of analytics firepower uh not not onto the cryptography itself but onto the various encryption schemes uh because that's like a smaller number of things to uh to to sort of figure out and could that in some way uh compromise like like the actual security of ZK h let me see if I got the question. So um what you're saying I think is there's this uh huge amount of information that lies with everybody that because we have shared all this information with everybody all these big in big big organizations um can we use ZK there to add protection is that the question uh no it's the the other way around uh right now the I sort of think of like uh uh compute and cryptography almost as offense and defense if you will like compute can uh figure out a lot of things about you and cryptography is what keeps it secret. Uh so uh right now all the compute that that the big organizations are using based on the data about you that they're figuring out things about you that you that they should uh ideally not otherwise know and they're doing it because of the computer. Crypto keeps it secret because it makes it harder to guess what the underlying thing is when you have like a secret crypto thing. But if if uh they turn that firepower not to the not not to the crypto outputs per se but like what are the various uh like the various hashing algorithms so to speak. So if they turn it on Ferma or or on one of the users of Ferma and saying based on everything else we know about them this is probably the encryption scheme that we're using and then use that information to sort of uh crack all the other uh downstream information from there. Is that is that a real threat or is that so I think but but you're getting it this is such a good question you're getting at the um system level security you're you're saying here here is so you had a question the specific question about the about how this threat can happen um that that that is not possible but but what you said earlier which is can there be a bigger threat that um ZK itself cannot secure because you have all this information that you have shared with with these big institutions. Um maybe they can still get information even if you use ZK even if you use encryption which is true. This is system level security. This is why um this is why the world should you are building a product. You cannot just use ZK and have this other notions of information elsewhere that is lying and uh that that can reveal information and if you do something that is securing um uh securing data in one channel but there is that data getting leaked on other channels there it it doesn't work. Uh you're right in saying that and I think what is the solution? The solution is that you got to think at a system level. You got you got this is this is why a clear view of the world is important. And um for example uh you cannot just go and say that hey uh I'm going to um not share information about this uh girl who is buying things at Target. Um I'm not going to share information about you. you're going to use pseudonyms, right? That person's first name and last name are not not used, you're going to use um you're going to be anonymous. But if all the purchase history is tied to this person, um then there is a pattern. This person has also bought the uh uh what a minor would would buy. This person this person is also buying something that uh might indicate that this person is pregnant. So th this this this this history has revealed something and that much information is more than enough for people to track where they are. There there is so much information. There is plenty information for people to track. So you you have to think at a system level but zero knowledge is just a tool. you you your solution has to use multiple tools and then you have to figure out an architecture for your application um to to reach the level of security that you want and zero knowledge is just one tool. It it is not a panaceia. It is it doesn't solve you put it and it's going to solve all the problems. It's not that way. You got to use it at the right way um in in the right way. there there has to be a a systems security approach at at a higher level and cryptographic tools are are the ones that help make that happen. Um but great question. Uh who is next? Yes. Yeah. Can I go ahead? Go ahead please. So uh I have been building something in the gaming space and the end goal was to incorporate ZK into it. uh because uh I think a lot of the things in the web two uh gaming space can be done better with web three and also that web two games are better in the gameplay and stuff but there's the privacy part which I think web three can solve right so uh I just want uh like kind of a uh like a few suggestions because I have built basically an uno game and I I'm planning to get my poker game also on it. So, uh how how do you suggest I incorporate ZK into both of these? Sure. For privacy, you you definitely need to look at these tools like Circom and um uh Noir. Um these are the two popular ones. There are a few other ones, but I think you would definitely need to start there. I would suggest that um you architect in a way where ZK doesn't get in the way because uh ZK can take time to generate proofs. You want things to be in a way where you're you're going to you can send the proof a little bit later. You're you're sending messages, things are happening. You uh it's optimistic in the sense that um it's optimistic in the sense that you you let's say I send I send you a message in in the in the game. um you believe that it is correctly done and then I'll send you a proof. um I'll take my time to generate proof because it actually takes time. uh and then you verify and then you say that okay yes she did speak correctly but but if the proof doesn't verify then you then you roll back and you you have these uh roll back mechanisms but this is one these are the two suggestions I would I would say um thank you thank you okay can I go ahead please all right um our question is uh what part of cryptographic P is zero know proof and what industry need zero know proof very very critically I don't know if I caught the question correctly can um okay I my question is just two questions um what part of cryptography is zero knowledge proofs and what industry need um zero knowledge proof the H I would say crypto because um answering your second part of the question, I would say crypto because th this is where this is where there is this need of um um how do you verify without trusting somebody because there is no one single centralized trusted party who can who who can say things and we can just believe that person. That's not what that's not how crypto works. Um what part of um what part of what part of cryptography is the case? It's it's um I I I'm not 100% sure how to answer this question, but um but I would say that this is this is one of the more more advanced uh cryptography tools than the than the more basic ones which are signatures and uh and encryption. All right. Thank you. Welcome. Hi Vist. Hi. Hi. My name is Nanduban. Uh first of uh thank you for giving such a detailed explainer and sharing all your recommendations and suggestions. Um I'll get to my question. Um recently we have seen quite a lot of projects uh pushing client side improving and um I was actually hoping to understand like your perspective on that like how fast are we getting there and um if my understanding is not wrong former being a middleman between proving in uh proof seekers so in a world where like we have to site proving actualized uh where do you think firma fits in? That's a great question. So um projects are pushing on client side proving. I think I think I think the world will be there will be a split in the world where some people will do client side proving and some people will do delegated proving. Client side proving is great when when when the amount of proof a user needs to do is very very very small and you don't have to reach uh parts of the world where people may not have like a a beefy phone that can do. People might still be using flip flip phones um and all those boxy phones. Um so there is a part of the world where um where client side proving might work. There's a part of the world where client side proving may not work for the for the um um for the case where client side proving does not work. Firma comes in by saying that um you can delegate proving while preserving privacy and we have a protocol for it that we call CPD confidential proving delegation. So think of as this one-stop shop for any proving needs be it be it when privacy is a concern or when privacy is not a concern. Great question. Thank you. All right. So, um thank you guys and uh thank you Vanistry for this great presentation. We are at the top of the hour. Uh but uh Vanestry um I think our community is super interested in Ferma and what it does and it would actually be great to have someone from your team maybe be part of our discord and answer some questions that were left unanswered in the session. Um that would be uh really great. Um but yeah, thank you so much. Thank you all. This was fun. All right guys, we'll see you tomorrow for another session. Thanks so much to everyone who joined today and thanks again Banishy.