Sudan's Political Challenges and Historical Context: Key Points from Lecture by Ghassan Ali Othman

Saying that Sudan's politics is harmed by the military intervention. Why did you create political entities in the military in the first place? If you want to maintain military professionalism! Right! Why did you create political entities in the military? Aha! You created these entities, so when your political project fails, you’ll seize authority by force! Politics is not about being optimistic or pessimistic! It is about being realistic! The South Separation is the gateway to other separations. In Sudan? Yes! Unless... Translated by Latifa Alharbi. This is Finjan from thmanyah, and I am Abdulrahman Abumalih. My guest today is the Sudanese author, political researcher, and media figure Ghassan Ali Othman. I’d like to know what actually happens in Sudan through this episode. Why is there no political stability since the colonization ended 70 years ago? Also, the many coups! So, understanding what happens in Sudan will give us a better understanding of the news. And would inform us more about the Sudan situation and its future. Which makes this episode important to me. There’s a previous episode about Yemen. It was informative and helped to understand the situation in Yemen. It is a Finjan previous episode, which you can watch. Such an episode is essential because it gives me insight into this country's news. But first, I must understand the context. This episode provides the historical context of Sudan’s diverse and varietal population. And how that was affected by the separation between the South and the North. Before we start, please share this episode with whoever is interested through WhatsApp or social media. And please suggest guests and topics to be discussed in Finjan On the email [email protected] Now, let’s start! -So you greet by placing your hands on the shoulder! -On the right side, yes! Every culture has a way of greeting! Yeah! This is our way! For both men and women? What? Do you greet men and women the same way? Yes, the same way. A friend of mine, Syrian. He was learning our greeting gestures and said it looked like the Nazi salute! Like the Nazis. Ok! But no hugs? Of course, there is, but depending on the relationship. A close person gets a hug. They were influenced by the Arab greeting (kiss on both cheeks). But we don’t do that in Sudan. Because of Covid! No, generally! Covid is a new thing! Covid is new! -Let’s discuss modern Sudan. -Go ahead! The Christians in Sudan and the introduction of Islam. Nowadays, Muslims are 95% of Sudan's population. Exactly! So, it is the majority. Of course! Dr. Mohammad Abu Alqasim -Haj Hamad! -Yes! In his book, Sudan, The Historical Predicament, he said that “Sudan is a country that lives a… Superficial unity and deep diversity? Exactly! I would like to know more about these varieties in Sudan. I wrote a book about Mohammad Abu Alqasim. About his book, Jadaliyat Al-tarkib (The Structuring Controversy) Which has two volumes, The Historical Predicament, and The Future Horizons. The diversity of Sudan is large, it is like an archipelago. Which has, according to the last statistics before the 2011 Separation, nineteen population groups. With 597 tribes! Large! -You noticed it is a large number! -It is! Actually, 597 tribes! What do you mean by ‘actually’? This number is a result of a census, not an approximation! Before 2011, Sudan had 597 tribes. Before the South Separation. So, the variety is a vast topic. But people sometimes use 'variety' interchangeably with 'diversity'. Sudan doesn’t have varieties, but diversities. That is, you can make a tribal classification, but not exclusively! As in a group is totally different from another. On the contrary, these groups are overlapping. You can pinpoint differences, but these cultural regions are overlapping! For example, you can’t claim that a tribe of the East has an exclusive identity that isn’t affected by the North, middle, and West! Which is the reality. So, ‘diversity’ is the more accurate expression, not the variety of one, two, and three! Did you get it? So, to be more accurate, Sudan has ethnic, racial, and cultural diversity. Not ‘variety’, which can be used to describe enclosed groups. Like in Iraq. There are separate Chaldean groups and Kurd groups. There are no similarities except for the natural influences. But they have enclosed ethnicities with special identities in Arab regions. Like the Amazigh (Berbers) people in Morocco, who have an ethnic background different from the Arab one. So, Sudan doesn’t have such enclosures. But ethnicities are overlapping. Therefore, I prefer to say ‘the cultural diversity of Sudan’ whether it was ethnic or else. Not ‘variety’! Even in South Sudan, the Nilotic tribes are largely influenced. That all three tribes of the South cannot communicate with another language than Arabic! So, Arabic is the common feature! Of course! Can you imagine its influence? Ok, talking about diversity. There is tribal diversity which is represented by the 597 tribes. Before the Separation! So, we have Islam! And Christianity. Islam is mostly Sufism! Are there Sunnah and Shia schools? The majority of Muslims follow Sufism. But I meant that the Sufi school in Sudan created the religious phenomenon in Sudan. -It is behind it! -Ok! Then, after the Turkish and Egyptian rule, it changed. So, there are Muslims. Are they all Sunnah? Relatively I would like to understand the Sudan varieties! Of course! So, after discussing the tribes, what about religion? The majority are Muslims. There are no religious groups in Sudan, like Shia or Sunnah. Because of Sufism, basically. Exactly! Because there are two types of Sufism, Sunnah Sufism, and Shia Sufism. The Sudan Sufism is Sunni! Which has the adoration of Ahl Al-Bayt (Prophet Muhammad family) in common with Shia Sufism. But Shia school isn’t popular in Sudan because it would require a Fatwa-based (religious rules) or reference-based religious phenomenon. Religion is natural in Sudan. The title of ‘state Mufti’ (highest-ranking jurist) is common in Arab countries. But don’t have such a thing as Mufti! Because most people refer to their Sheikh (the person who has the most knowledge of religion in a group), who is their leader. See how it is! So, Shia school is less popular in Sudan mainly because of the religion's natural, soft, and subtle nature. It merged with the old religions. This subtleness made many former spiritual religions find their way through Islam in Sudan. Which is behind not having a religious institution! There are social structures based on the Sufi way. A Sheikh could come from the far west. For example, from Salé, Morocco. To settle in a certain geographic area, and people would settle near him after he had taught Quran, which creates a city. This is one of the sociological basis of creating a city, among which are religion, trade, or conquests. The case in Sudan is that cities were created on a religious basis. A Sheikh gathered people around him. That’s why you’d find, especially by the Nile side, many areas named after Sheikhs. Like? Like Abu Haraz area, who was a Sheikh. Or the Tabat Sheikh Abdel-Mahmoud’s, the Sammaniyya leader. Or Hasan wad Husouna area. These areas are urban because they were established on agriculture. Applying this to myself, I’m from Sudan’s far north. Sheikhs played a part in the state itself when there was a state. So, when the colonization began… The famous manifesto by Herbert Kitchener, who led the colonization. He said he would reinforce the same social order, which made Sheikhs gain a political advantage later. Yes, political presence. This was regarding Muslims, so what about Christians? There are large numbers of Coptic Christians. What about the Jewish people? The last Jews left Sudan in the midst 80s. Because the country issued a statement about enforcing Islamic laws in 1983. Ok! This statement led many Jews to leave Sudan, as well as Christians. Those who remained so far, since the 19th century, are the Coptics. Which are considered a minority because they are small numbers and live in enclosed areas. Usually, the Coptics live together in specific districts. The Sudanese Christianity isn’t Coptic Orthodox. But Catholic and Protestant Christianity. The Coptics are Orthodox. So, the main Sudanese church is the Catholic, then the Protestants or Angelic Church, and lastly, the Coptic Orthodox Church. But the Jewish people were in Sudan since ancient times. Since... To be accurate, the Jewish appeared in Sudan during the Christian period. A Jewish synagogue (Kanees) was found in some relics nearby the Nile. It's named, as it was diminutivized, Kunaisa (from Kanees). Until today! It’s marked. The least number of Jews was in Sudan. As known that Egypt, Yemen, and Morocco have a larger Jewish population. The least is Sudan, which is attributed to the nature of Sudan’s economy. The Jews prefer urban areas where there is commercial activity, not agriculture! Sudan is an agricultural country, and farming is its main economic activity. Even the coastal areas? Exactly, Sudan is an agricultural country. It is the largest riverbed of the Nile. It is one and a half times longer than the Nile in Egypt. Also, it is the only country in the region nourished by two river streams. One stream is from Uganda, Lake Victoria, and the other is from Ethiopia’s Lake Tana. So that Sudan is called the Two Niles Land. Because there is the Blue Nile and the White Nile. Upon their union, the famous Nile flows into Egypt. But it depends on these two streams, basically. So, Sudan is an agricultural country. And it is… In the 80s, Arab countries had a famous slogan: Sudan is the Arab world’s food basket. There was a project in which Sudan contributed by land, Saudi by funds, and Egypt and Syria contributed with technology. Since agriculture is an ancient craft in Egypt and the Levant. This project started in 1984 but ended around the 90s. It was called: Sudan is the Arab world food basket. Because Sudan has the most fertile land. Why did it stop? It didn’t succeed for political reasons, the lack of political stability. -In Sudan! -Yes. Sudan is suffering from political disturbance since 1956. -Since the independence! -Yes! Before discussing the political crisis. Is this variety… I’m saying ‘variety’ because I’m counting them. Is it a result of war migrations or because of Sudan’s nature? Why are there such varieties? The culture varieties in Sudan… Every region has native inhabitants. Isn't it so? Like the Red Indians in America. These indigenous inhabitants, which are there since the beginning of history. And the most important indigenous inhabitants are the Nubians in north Sudan. Which is an extension of the south Egypt Nubia. The same Nubia demographic is in both South Egypt and North Sudan, separated by political boundaries. And in eastern Sudan, there are the Beja people, which is an ancient group. Reading for old Arab explorers, like Al-Masudi’s The Meadows of Gold, you’d find correspondence between the Beja kings and the Abbasid caliphs. The same applies to the Nubia kingdoms of the north. There are two types of Nubia, one in the north of Sudan, and another in the west-south of Sudan, the Nubia Mountains. They are the Negritudes, which means they are the Zanj tribes. It is a very ancient demographic. The south of Sudan, where the Nilotic tribes reside. Tribes like the Dinka, Shilluk, and Nuer. All are indigenous tribes. The societies are also formed by migrations, like the old Arab migration, which established the Arabic language there. The Arab migrations were from certain directions, like Egypt. And from a tribe like Juhaynah (Arab tribe). The Arabs migrated to Sudan. And other Magharebi (Moroccan) migrations, from Morocco. It happened in ancient times. And since east Sudan was the largest port, it was the gateway of migrations. The Arab group is determined by features like their mother tongue, the Arabic language. The indigenous groups of the society have their own languages. -Until now? -Yes, until now. It isn’t strange to a person like me, whose mother tongue is Arabic… To fail to understand a word in the Nubia areas. This applies to the East and West too! But they all understand Arabic! As I told you, the most common feature of this diversity is the Arabic language. Even the South Sudan tribes of the African race communicate with the Arabic language. The South Sudan capital is Juba, and the Arabic variety used there is called Arabi Juba. It is Arabic but in a local colloquial. Like any colloquial in the Arab world. Aren’t the Sudan tribes, in the north and the south, all African tribes? It depends… Because you just gave a… It depends on… This binary identity of Arabism and Africanism is present in other regions with different names. That is… In the 20s and 30s, the Egyptians had the question: are we Arab or Pharaohs? In Syria: are we Arab or Assyrians? Isn't it so? The geographical location of a country like Sudan ends in the south of a desert. If you look at the map, the east extension ends in the south of the desert. The African identity means there was an ethnic hybridization. Which is a nature of all societies, not only Sudan. There’s no pure society! The only person who insisted on a pure-blood society was Hitler! The German purity! Sudan has Arabic groups who migrated to the land, and indigenous African groups, which made us look like a way that combines both features. So by saying Arabic groups, you refer to groups from the Arabic peninsula! Yes, of course! Arab tribes that migrated and settled in Sudan. These migrations continued, found the indigenous population, and mingled with them. They came with a cultural project through which their language and religion were introduced. So, naturally, they were the most influential, although they were the least in numbers! Because they had the tools of social alteration. In comparison to the large population, a small group made their language the main language. And their religion became the main religion. It is called the creative minority in sociology. There are minorities with the tools of civilization who generalize their presence where they settle. Therefore, when someone wonders, ‘Are we Arab or Africans?’ It is more of a rhetorical question. Unscientific question! Because societies are naturally mixed. They mingle with each other. This mingling can be measured by some standards. One of the issues in Arab culture is the association of identity with race. Which is an illusion, naturally. There’s no association because race isn’t a choice. Right? You don’t choose to be black, white, red, or green! But your identity is based on your choices! You choose to speak and think in a certain way! So, since the 20s, Sudan is questioning: Are we Arabs… Or Africans? It was mostly illustrated in literature, poetry, and so on. In… 1926, if I was accurate The renowned poet Saleh Abdel-Qadir said: “If I was inspected by you, oh daughter of the Nile You would find lions beneath my garment You would find in me a virtuous and noble You would find the ignorance of the black and the dreams of the white” This binary identity of white and black. There were major cultural movements, like the Jungle and Desert movements in Sudan. The symbolism refers to the Africans as Jungle and Arabs as the Desert. It was influenced by Leopold Senghor. The great Senghor used to tackle this binary of Arabism and Africanism, in Senegal. Imagine that this question is still alive today in Sudan. There’s a sort of resistance, are we Arabs or Africans? Do we entirely belong to an African identity or to the Middle East? I call them unreasonable questions. Because the main indicator of any identity isn’t race, but mainly language and culture. The point is that Sudan’s name, which is spread across the continent to Senegal, It is a name of a color, Sud (blacks). Sudan is the land of black people. In Nigeria, they are Negritudes. The Niger are the niggers. Therefore, in the debate over the proper classification of the Sudanese. I am against the meaningless question of “Arab or African?” Couldn’t it be both? It could be three, four, and five! It isn't this complicated! -So, you could be African, Arab, and Muslim! -Of course! The African part, which is geographical, applies to the Algerian and Egyptian too! -Isn’t it right? -Yes. The Tunisian and the Libyan! Is the Saudi even Asian? Same question! I don’t have any relation to Japan! What made such a question present in Sudan are the African boundaries that end there. We always say that Sudan is the Arabs' entryway into Africa. Which is very accurate, by the way. The Arabs who lived in the region mingled with… We’re talking about the south of the desert. So that one of South Sudan’s political arguments is “Why do you claim that we are Arabs while we only share geography?” But it is a natural argument, not a novel one! It is the same case with the Spanish and Italians! The people of Sicily claim that they are more Italian than the Lombardi, people in the north. Which is a natural controversy, and it is not exclusive to Sudan. More so, the reason is that the African presence, which is associated with color and features is more in Sudan than in the Arabic Peninsula which has many colors and features, but it is lesser than in Sudan. Which all fall under what I call fake causes. It is not of good use to remain a prisoner of the binary conflict, Arab or African. In Sudan, someone would argue that they are not Arab! Why is that? Because to Arab countries, we are considered Africans! How come? So if someone tells you that you are Arab, will you agree? Why do you need external self-identification? You should be aware of who you are. Therefore, the Arab identity in Sudan is a cultural identity, not a racial identity. It doesn't negate that we are the offspring of the combination of the migrated Arab tribes, the indigenous people, and the African tribes. Which is the A, B, and C of social structure in the universe. It isn’t unusual! And who perceives it otherwise is not thinking right! These ethnic varieties and diversity in Sudan are found everywhere. It could even be considered the least distinct diversity. Take Lebanon as an example! It has distinct cultural diversity! Distinct! -A strong… -Categorical! Yes! But in Saudi and Gulf countries, we are similar in many ways and have many tribes. Even within Saudi, there is diversity! The people of Hijaz differ from the Eastern Province people. So do the Southerners, Northerners, and Najd. Various cultural diversities! But this didn’t stop most countries, including foreign countries like Spain and America that have such diversity. But it didn’t stop them from creating a state! This variety did not hinder them, if not a strength! Yeah! But while researching, I found that many Sudanese intellectuals attribute the inability to make a state in Sudan to this diversity! You, and... Hasan Al-Truabi, Muhammad Abu Al-Qasim, and Dr. Muhammad Othman Abdel-Maalik. All of you agreed that diversity is the greatest issue! Is it actually an obstacle to creating a stable country? A state is the highest form of agreement on the citizenship of a society. Any state should represent all of its diverse demographic groups. So, to put it simply, when you reside in a certain geography in a state that doesn’t acknowledge you, represent you, or let you benefit from your land’s riches It will, naturally, start a political conflict! -Isn’t it right? -Yes! If you reside in South Sudan, where oil was discovered in the 80s, and the central state decided not to build a refinery in the same location oil was discovered, but to build it in the center of Sudan. This is starting the fire, isn’t it? If this wasn’t the case, revenues of the development extracted from your land must affect your life directly! It must develop your education, health care, and other aspects! We have two problems other than diversity. We have unbalanced development. And the state failed to represent this diversity in a way each Sudanese person can belong to the state. Political scientists divided these rights into moral and direct rights. Moral rights mean If there was a group of people with a certain language was suppressed that they couldn't even write or speak this language, they would resist, naturally! They could hold a weapon against you too! Like what is happening in Sudan, in the Nubia mountains. One of the arguments of the people who led the conflict in the Nubia Mountains is “We’re not represented or acknowledged by the state! And there is Arab dominance! Minority dominance! And we are forced into a different culture and language!” So, these are reasons for political conflict! Saying that “the state failed” in Sudan is relative! Because there is no particular failure. But the case is that since 1956 until now, the Sudanese, or the ones who raised the flag on 1/1/1956, couldn’t create a political project which represented all Sundanese whether they were Arab, Africans, Nubians, or Beja! All these classifications couldn’t find themselves in the state! How do you find yourself in the state? By not having a cultural minority dominating all state positions! Won't work! Or to concentrate development on some areas while other areas are neglected! All of this induces a political conflict! So, to put it accurately, we didn’t manage the diversity in Sudan well! It isn’t a problem exclusive to Sudan, but many have it. But regarding Sudan, the diversity wasn’t properly managed! How to manage this diversity well? When you create an educational curriculum, it must represent the collective memory of the entire nation. North, East, and South! Not to only narrate the story of one group! Everyone must find themselves in it! Secondly, there wasn’t any attempt to balance development. That makes the countryside as developed as the city and urban areas as developed as villages with equal services. Weapons were held alongside the famous slogan: "Economic marginalization!" The developmental marginalization. The area I belong to is less serviced, while other areas have services! It wasn’t deliberately designed this way! To be factual. We are not saying that a political group settled in Khartoum and decided to give this and deprive that! There wasn’t political stability that enabled designing a balanced developmental strategy to ensure everyone’s rights! Which makes services a right of every Sudanese. Any development is conditional to political stability. Politics before economy! You should ensure political stability to create economic growth! Even moral rights cannot be guaranteed without political stability! Why there wasn’t political stability since the independence? Many reasons. Firstly Some would say that… Political parties had conflicts, and they ignored the nation's interests. They fought over chairs until military coups obstructed democracy, which took Sudan back to square one. But this is just the surface of the issue! Yes! Because there was never a military coup in Sudan, to begin with! One of the lies! -There wasn’t? -There wasn’t! There wasn’t any military coup in Sudan! There were more than 13 coups! -But they weren’t military coups! -What were they then? I know it is surprising. A military coup is when a military institution... -Right? -Mhm! takes authority by force, suppresses freedoms, and cancels or freezes political activities. Isn’t this the nature of coups? The first military coup (air quoting) was in November 1958. The military didn’t even make a coup in Sudan. The prime minister of Sudan at that time asked the general leader of the military to seize authority in 1958. Authority remained with the military as requested by the civil parties! From 1958 until its collapse in the 1964 revolution. It cannot be defined as a military coup because it was a request from the prime minister. -Is this the Mahdist revolution? -No, it was 1958. From General Abboud's government collapse in 1964 until 1969, the communist Sudanese party with the Nasirists… -Whose government was it? -General Ibrahim Abboud! -A military figure? -Yes! But it wasn't in the sense of a military coup because it was requested by civilians! -He didn’t lead a coup! -Ok! The following coup in 1969 was when four primary parties… I will explain why I said that It was a simple reason The political parties recruited military personnel in the military institution that ideologically belonged to them. And then, they lead the coup representing the party. Is it a military coup or a political coup? Political parties coup! Not military. I will give you evidence of that… But using the military! It isn’t… sensible to have a military organization while you are just a political party! It isn’t comprehensible! Just imagine the Democratic or Republican parties in America with military organizations! It isn’t possible because it is an independent institution without political intervention. But if you used this institution! In 1996, the four parties, the Communist, Nasirist, Ba’thist, and Nationalist parties pushed the late president, Jaafar Nimeiry, to seize power representing the four parties. Ok! It lasted from 1969 until 1985. From 1985 until 1989, the Muslim Brotherhood, or as it is called, The National Islamic Front urged the former president, Omar al-Bashir, to lead a coup. So, it is a military coup! It is not… A military coup is when the military institution seizes power! But I told you that political parties had a military organization, and they schemed these coups until zero hour and appointed the leader who ideologically belonged to them to take control. Is it a military coup or a coup organized by political parties? -Military! -How so? When al-Bashir took over, he was incarcerated by the Brotherhood! -No, it didn’t happen! -But it is… -No, it didn’t happen -It didn’t! He and Al-Turabi were incarcerated! No, they weren’t. Dr. Hasan Al-Turabi’s tactic was that the Brotherhood military organization would initiate a coup on 30/1/1989. And to hide the arrangement from the region and Sudanese, the major political leaders must be imprisoned. To create a charade that is always referred to in Sudan politics: "I will go to prison as a prisoner, and you will go to the palace as a president. Until further notice!" So, no one was incarcerated! Who did the 1989 coup? It’s my specialty! The 1989 coup was made by the Muslim Brotherhood! And the 1969 coup was made by the Communist party, and the Sudanese left! And the 1958 coup was made by the National Umma party! So, how come anyone claims they were military coups? So, they are political party coups! Exactly! All of these coups were initiated by decisions made by the political party office! A decision! The political office of the Umma party gathered in 1958 and collectively decided to hand authority to the military. The central committee of the Communist Sudanese Party gathered to decide that the military should seize authority. The Shura Council of the Muslim Brotherhood gathered and decided to give power to the military! So, which military coup was ever initiated by a political, civil party decision? It isn’t a military coup! So they are political coups. Why does Sudan have the most coups in the Arab World? No, not the most! Most coups happened in Iraq. It isn’t correct. And Syria! Not the most coups, if you talk about numbers! Yes! No, Sudan isn’t number one. It is Iraq, then Syria! Syria had coups of Husni Al-Za’im, Al-atassi, and Adib Shishakli in the 50s. So, it is the country with the most coups. But your question could be, why Sudan has so many military coups? Because the political parties cannot be patient for the political field to develop. So, once there is… What pushed the Ummah party to hand power to the military in 1958 was that there were a few days left for the parliament assembly, in which Abdullah Khalil’s government would be taken down, and another party would gain authority. So, they didn’t want that transfer to happen and urged the military to seize authority. In 1965, the political parties had conflicts on the nature of Sudan’s constitution. So, they dissolved the communist party and dismissed it from the parliament. So it requested the military to seize power in a vindictive response to the dismissal. In 1989, Sadiq Al-Mahdi and the Muslim Brotherhood were pressured to hand power from the governments he created. They asked the military to initiate a coup! Did you get it? These are facts, documented facts! Not a chatter! No, these are Sudan’s historical facts. These impatient political parties who couldn't wait for the political field to develop called the military to take over to have exclusive authority! It applies to the Umma party in the 50s, the Communists in 1969, and the Brotherhood in 1989. What’s funny is that all these figures who asked the military to seize power were the first to be rid of once the military was in authority. They reaped... what they sowed! The reason behind these coups and political disturbances in Sudan. Is the dominion of instability attributed to land conflicts, political borders between the North and South, or ideological differences' conflicts? Overall… What you said regarding the ideologies was accurate! The political conflict in Sudan is very intense! Do you know that Sudan's independence was a result of a major political crisis? It was surprising that independence was announced by that time! The political activities started in the 30s. With the assembly of the Graduates Congress in 1938. It was an assembly of the educated people of Sudan. The central social structure of Sudan can be described as three-dimensional. Tribal groups: represented by tribal leaders, which is a major social role. Secondly, the leaders of religious groups. Not jurisprudential school-wise groups, but Sufi groups. In the 30s, the intellectuals of Sudan were added to the equation. Those who graduated from modern schools in the 1920s. Education started early in Sudan. Khartoum University was established in 1902. -Wow! -Oh yes! It was established in 1902 but wasn’t called Khartoum University. It was called Gordon College when it was established in 1902. Upon the emergence of these three groups, the political controversy was about whether Sudan should have independence from Egypt and Britain or unite with Egypt. The two poles were either independence or union! This political conflict went on and directly induced the creation of political parties. In the 40s. Sudan’s political parties were born from political conflicts, but it is not natural! They must be created according to economic, social, and political programs. That is, each party presents its program and proposes a candidate to be elected to rule. As simple as that! But the case is these parties were created under the pressure of political conflict. This pressure kept going until now! There are internal and external factors. Looking at politics, you can’t ignore the external factors. Which is sometimes called a conspiracy theory, as if they conspired. But a conspiracy cannot be effective unless the internal factors support it. Simply. I am not a pro-conspiracy theory, but I believe that political elites failed, since Sudan's independence, to agree on a national project where Sudanese people find themselves, socially, ethnically, and culturally represented by it. The political parties could not practice democracy among themselves. Do you know that a party president will be in that position for 60 years? Just one person! Therefore, there are no parties! These aren’t structured as parties but as families! Because when the president dies, his son succeeds him! These are hereditary structures! Not democracy, in which authority is passed on! So, the small party structure itself isn’t practicing this democracy! No leadership rotation! So, how come an inefficient party creates a political project? It isn’t possible! What stops them from having new parties? Even new parties… Sudan has ideological parties, like the left and right, which is understandable. And modern parties, like the left. These modern parties used to classify societies as either conservative or progressive in the 60s. They classified people as progressive or conservative. They are small parties with less representation in society. Because the nature of society creates the efficiencies of political, economic, and religious systems. The Sudan society is more of a religious, Sufi structure. This structure creates resistance when you introduce new ideologies. Therefore, one of the things that must be addressed is the failure of political parties to present a political program, and wait for their democratic process to unravel, and don’t hasten to seize authority by force, as they did in Sudan. I completely think the military institution is innocent of any coups in Sudan. The military institution didn’t solely initiate… As if the general woke up one morning and decided to make a coup! There is no such thing in our history! The latest decision made by Al-Burhan wasn’t his own! There are political incubators behind it. Which changed the situation! So that I always negate the claim of military intervention Because the military didn’t initiate a coup, but the political parties did! And invited the military to join politics. It was invited by creating political entities within the institution! It doesn’t make sense, isn’t it? Saying that Sudan's politics is harmed by the military intervention. Why did you create political entities in the military in the first place? If you want to maintain military professionalism! Why did you create political entities in the military? Aha! You created these entities, so when your political project fails, you’ll seize authority by force! Right! Which is what happened! Will the separation of South Sudan ease the intensity of the conflict? It already happened, the separation! Will this separation make North Sudan less conflictive? Aha, I understand now! Did this separation create stability in South Sudan? Never! Even the South! Of course! Exactly! The South Sudan Independence… I don’t want to use harsh words, but the reality is that there is no state in South Sudan! No state! There is only a racial authority! And everyone who resists or opposes this authority will end up either imprisoned, killed, or banished. No state! And the collapse of South Sudan's economy is evidence of that. 80% of Sudan’s oil is in the south, so as a less populated country with around 4 million people, with 80% of the million square miles country's oil! Aren’t these the development factors that would create a great country in a few years? The reality is the failure of the state and the collapse of its economy! In addition to the war between the South’s tribes! When the South held weapons against the North, they overlooked their internal conflicts, which is the very nature of South Sudan! Due to tribal extreme conflict! The first peace agreement in South Sudan was in 1972. Ok! It lasted until 1983. Simply, the tribal conflict in South Sudan negated the Addis Ababa peace agreement in 1983. Same as when the South separated after the 2005 agreement, the South suddenly discovered that society had a severe tribal conflict. So, one tribe dominates the political landscape and suppresses the others. Did it create stability? No! On the contrary… To be accurate… Politics is not about being optimistic or pessimistic! It is about being realistic! The South Separation is the gateway to other separations. -In Sudan? -Yes! Of course! Unless! Which is the missing piece! It is a necessity that all Sudanese, in all shapes and forms of political entities, gather to agree to answer a very important question. Their question was: will I rule, or will you rule? But instead, they should ask the question: how to rule? This question is important! How to rule such a country, instead of wondering who would rule. That is, a new political system must be created! It is a must to create a new political system! If we fail to create a political system that allows the rotation of authority, then separations will happen! East, West, and North! A possibility! It is proven everywhere in the world! States would separate when they fail to create a political system, they would collapse! It would collapse! Separation and self-rule are political expressions. Like Kurdistan’s deal with Iraq, between Erbil and the central government! To create a separate stable state without conflict. We’re talking about the crisis of the collapse. Isn't it so? Any country without a political system will collapse! Of course, there is no one size fits all political system model! Each country, Arab or otherwise, has private nature known to its people! The nature of their crisis and conflicts is known to its citizens! So, they are the ones who create a system! Thinking of democracy or liberalism isn’t fundamental, just valueless slogans! In philosophy, it was always said that ideas’ values are based on their benefits. The value of ideas is based on their benefits! An idea without benefit isn’t necessary! Not necessarily have democracy if it wasn’t beneficial! That’s why… Saying that isn’t about being optimistic or pessimistic, but Sudanese intellectuals, especially those in political parties, must take off the ideological cloak and tend to the public interest. The public interest will detect dangers! Meanwhile, Sudan is a very rich country! And this isn’t fictional! It is factual! I could say that Sudan is the richest country in the region! With its resources! There is an abundance of farming land and types of agriculture. Rainfed agriculture and irrigated agriculture! Fertile soil! The Gold! The strategic geographic location! We have the Red Sea and the Gulf in the east. And we are the gateway to Africa through the western part! And in the south of the desert! So, there is no reason for Sudan to suffer economic crises! These economic crises are attributed to the severe political crisis. There was no political stability, which is the only way to achieve economic growth in any country! Although the country had good economic conditions during the colonization! As Muhammad Abu Al-Qasim stated. “We inherited a good economy but couldn’t maintain it.” Mr. Muhammad said the right words, but not the accurate ones! What did colonization do to Sudan? They started the Al-Jazeera project, the largest cotton production to export to Lancashire factories in Britain. Sudan’s share of was… No one can deny the infrastructure done by colonization! They built railways across the country, from east to west and north to south. But colonialism doesn’t create an economy! Colonization creates an economy that serves it, a colonial economy! Which enables it to manage this country and thrive on its resources! Colonization didn’t come to pat me on the back! It takes my primal resources to export to Britain’s factories! As well as your heritage and gold! So, many intellectuals have nostalgia. That Sudan was… As well as other Arab countries, such as Egypt. They say Cairo streets were washed with soap! Look at this dirt now! This is nostalgia! But if we make a real analysis… It is right that when we raised the flag in 1956, the Aljazeera project made the largest part of the public fund. But how much was the population in 1956? 8 million! Now, it is 40 million people! Logically! Aljazeera project used to fund and so… But was there a long civil war going from 1955 to 2005? There wasn’t! So, looking only at how things were like before the flag was raised means overlooking the recent political and social situation. South Sudan was at war since the first rebellion in 1955, before the independence! The independence was in January 1956. This war kept going until 1972. So, since the country was established, it is at war! For 22 years, or is it so? From 1955 to 1972 is a long time! The war stopped in 1972, and the peace only lasted for nine years until 1983. It was resumed from 1983 until 2005. So, going back to Abu al-Qasim's words, isn’t this recent situation affecting it? It affects it! Besides, the Darfur was! And the Nubia Mountains war! And the Blue Nile war! So, during this fragmentation and conflict, how come we say we didn’t maintain it? No one can praise colonisation! It isn't commendable! I believe that Muhammad Abu Al-Qasim was one of Sudan’s greatest intellectuals! He gave a thorough, objective critique of Sudan’s political and social history. But we should consider the recent changes! You claim that the only solution for Sudan is to have a new political system. Doesn’t this require a figure or a party that everyone agrees on? This is about changing the charismatic figure concept that sociologists talk about. There is nothing such as a charismatic figure. The main concern is the institution now! My point is, we... Change isn’t an effort of one party. Or one charismatic figure like Abdul Nasser. No! Nor Hamdok! Now, the world has changed! It is an institutional change! Which means setting general features for the intellectual process in the state. This isn’t theoretical! If we say please conduct a constitutional congress in Sudan to address the rule system, the economic and developmental marginalization, and the Sudan identity. For all the Sudanese, with no exceptions. This is what’s needed. Countries are created according to this concept. I don’t think humanity created another mechanism besides compromise! Issues all around the world are solved by a great compromise. A country might face a huge predicament that could be a military crisis! That people become loaded with weapons! But eventually, such crises will be solved by compromise! How to make a compromise? To start by understanding that Sudan doesn’t belong to political parties! Nor it belongs to the military institution! Nor it belongs to the Intelligentsia! Sudan belongs to all Sudanese people! Therefore, we encourage conducting an open constitutional congress, where each tribe, or geographical region, elects representatives who understand their needs. To sit around that table! We have in Sudan… I’m not saying this to boast, But Sudan is the least violent country in the region, despite the military coups. Less violent! The Sudanese character has different traits! The Sudanese people are not violent, but more inclined to reconciliation, compromise, and peace. Not the intellectual character, but the normal, commoner Sudanese! We have a legacy of tolerance! The traditional way, like the Judiyyah. It is a reconciliation agreement far more effective than the state. If a person murdered one, two, or three. According to law, he’ll be executed! By order of the court of law! But the tradition interferes, which is the Judiyyah. In which the grieving family asks for a verdict, and they eventually forgive! We have a legacy and tradition of tolerance in the Sudanese social structure. So, do you attribute these long-going wars to the intellectuals? Yes! Sudan was harmed by political party intellectuals! Because the ordinary intellectual has no power! But the party intellectual recruits people of the military to seize power by force! This is the party intellectual! But the common intellectual lacks power. Most of these issues, even in Arab countries, are caused by the elites! The crisis is the elites. Our crisis is our elites because they are separated from society! So that they cannot represent society but only express their benefit! They make use of their privilege, but not in favor of others! Although the reality is that this elite is the mediator! Who represents the social system economically, socially, politically, culturally, and identically! Who should represent it all! But the reality is the elites... I don’t want to generalize! But most elites are separated from society into their enclosed society of elites! The privileged! He could be from an area of war and massacre, but he lives and works in the capital, Khartoum! And express his cause eloquently! Despite being a son of that distressed geography, who could actually speak their needs. Did they elect him to represent them? They… We are talking about the educated elite. The people from a tribe who receive education represent the group. What is the illiteracy percentage in Sudan? I don’t have numbers, but it is not small! -High? -Yes! It isn’t a small percentage! But still is less than in other Arab countries. Since education started early in Sudan. Modern education started in 1902. Which was a long time ago! Mentioning the Sudanese character, I would like to get back to a tweet you posted, “The discussion of the Sudanese character is limited to two aspects: The first one is glorifying and doesn’t acknowledge the flaws. The second one is demeaning and relies on a scale outside of society. And the solution is to acknowledge the radical changes that happened to society, the negative and the positive.” I would like to discuss the first part, what are the Sudanese character flaws? I wrote this because I felt that sociology, and the people who observe the development of the Sudanese character. It is still a poor aspect of research that lacks theorizing to monitor the changes in the Sudanese character. The character… According to sociology, saying that there is a Saudi, Syrian, and Egyptian character, is describing a mask, not an actual personality! When I say ‘The Saudi character’, is there a Saudi character? -No! -Of course! There is no particular Egyptian personality either! So, it’s a mask with general features that indicate a Sudanese, a Palestinian, Saudi, Syrian, or Egyptian! So, we have a list of features of the Arab character! That other countries can list! Exactly! It isn’t scientific, of course, but just empty words! The reality is each country has personalities and special, various behavioral patterns. So, I wrote this to urge monitoring the changes that happened to the Sudanese behavior. I once read a news post on social media. About an honoring of a Sudanese shepherd in Saudi for retrieving lost money! So, people started to perceive the Sudanese character as an honest one! I remember having a discussion with an Egyptian friend. I asked him what he thought of the Sudanese character. I asked him what he thought of the Sudanese character. I said that he described a dog! Honest and loyal what? Say something we could understand! Am I a dog now to be honest and loyal? Sorry for the expression! No problem! I wondered what this loyal and honest was! It is like describing a guardian! The point is, there are shifts in the Sudanese character that changed its behavior. Because social behavior depends on economic activity, the political landscape, and personal challenges. So, thinking that we are the best people isn’t objective, nor is thinking we are the worst! Let’s get rid of the binary description! Let’s agree on an approach that studies the changes in the Sudanese character. Saying character means this mask! How others perceive you, not how you perceive yourself! Which is different! As I mentioned earlier, we all have illusions about each other. Right? And we generalize these illusions! Which comes from ignorance! An entire nation cannot be described one way! Otherwise, it is a stupid description! Not all are heroes, nor all villains! So, I meant to inspect this exact mask! Then, look inwardly to understand! This is important because the social factors are the same in politics and production. So, understanding this factor will enable us to predict the problems’ natures. The social factor mustn’t be neglected. Because it is the inducer of coups! Before the action, let’s study the social factor mentality changes to understand the problems! Regarding the second part, the “radical, negative, and positive changes.” Naturally, in all nations! There are always negative and positive changes. So, my main point was that we study the social factor in Sudan to understand how it changes the Sudanese character. To acknowledge that there is no one Sudanese personality. But instead, Sudanese characters! There are general features, of course! When we met earlier, I greeted you by patting you on the shoulder! Yes. And you asked if it was the Sudanese greeting. Patting on the shoulder! It is a general feature, and all Sudanese will greet this way. But we won’t think the same way or share the same perceptions! -Right? -Exactly! But there are general features which I’m concerned about their changes. Then, dive deeper into the internal changes that lead us to such and such. It is essential! You said in one of your lectures that there is a multitude of Sudanese citizenships. A variety of allegiances! What do you mean by that? I meant that we couldn’t yet get to… The modern state is based on citizenship, not a multitude of smaller allegiances! We still have a conflict of allegiances in our society. The allegiance to the tribe contradicts the allegiance to the state. The allegiance to the political party contradicts the allegiance to the state. So does allegiance to a particular cultural ethnicity. So we have a conflict of allegiances! Is it because the state rejected them? Because we prioritize the party’s interests over the state’s interests! The tribe’s interest over the state’s interest! The intellectual community’s interest over the state’s interest! Why? The ideological conflict! The ideology's dominance over nationalism! The nation concept is fundamental in political action! But the reality is prioritizing the ideology. I get it! The ideology is a way for the political parties to confirm and execute their ideas. But a country of such diversity, like Sudan, cannot be changed by one idea, no matter how eloquent it is. It won’t work no matter was the idea! Therefore, this contradiction and multitude of allegiances hinder us from creating a national project in which everyone finds themselves. Mahgoub said the same thing. He said that the Sudanese mentality is contaminated by vendetta. Exactly! What are these vendettas? In the 30s, Mahgoub wrote in Alfajr magazine that we had to rewrite Sudan's history. Since the 30s? Yes, it is a famous article. His article was titled ‘The Sense of Nationalism’, which he wrote in 1936 in Alfajr magazine. Mahgoub was a renowned Sudanese intellectual. But he was harmed by politics. He was lost to politics, he was the prime minister and the foreign affairs Minister and so on! Mahgoub thought that Sudan's political eras left vendettas and hatred between tribes. Which made an entire geographical-tribe group hate another because of one person! Mahgoub urged to rewrite history in a way that overlooks these historical vendettas. To progress and get over the Mahdist era conflicts between the west and north of Sudan, when there were massacres. We get over that! What happened in the Mahdist era? It is a vast topic! Very vast! It affected the political and social environment greatly! It is a vast topic and would require much time to explain. Can you explain it briefly? It is about the Mahdist state in 1881, when Mahdi declared his rebellion against the Turkish government. And he took it down in 1885. Until he died after the first six months of his reign over the new city. To leave it to his successor, from a different geographical ethnicity. Who ignited racial tensions. And subjected entire populations to the extreme form of political violence. Just because they opposed him! Besides the nature of Mahdist politics that lasted from 1885 to 1898, when the English and Egyptians returned to Sudan. And I’d like to negate the claim of Egypt colonizing Sudan! It didn’t happen before! What happened then? The case was that Egypt was a British colony! Aha! But wasn’t it a double ruling? This condominium was… Even Mahgoub's words you mentioned earlier. He wrote that Egypt was the sleeping partner! Which lacked actual authority! There was no single Egyptian appointed as general ruler from 1899 to 1956! They were always second class! So, claiming that Egypt colonized Sudan isn’t accurate. Egypt itself was colonized! And once Egypt got rid of the Khedivate regime, Its first decision was to grant Sudan self-rule liberty! So, saying that Egypt colonized Sudan isn’t… If that applied to Sudan, it means that Turkey did colonize Egypt! Isn’t it so? Because Khedivate is Turkish! These claims are common among people, but they are not accurate. Back to the Mahdist era, it is a vast topic to discuss. Because it was also created… it is still present to this day. It has a presence in the political sphere! Especially when it comes to the relationship between religion and state. It is highly present! Mahgoub said there were other ways to prioritize national allegiance over extremist allegiances. What are the examples of such solutions? Curriculums! To rewrite curriculums. -Educational curriculum! -Yes! Rewriting these curriculums by mentioning national figures from all parts of Sudan. Regarding Mahgoub’s reading of the Mahdist Revolution. This Mahdist revolution could be represented by someone from East Sudan, like General Osman Digna. And a Mahdist figure from west Sudan, like the Mahdi’s vice, Abdullah Altai’ushi. And a Mahdist figure from north Sudan…like this! A nationalist curriculum in which all Sudanese find themselves. We will create a Sudanese mentality that overcomes the historical vendettas. With more insight into the diversity they belong to. This was Mahgoub’s idea. It is still called for now! That we should rewrite curriculums to recreate the collective national memory. So, you believe that curriculums are the sole essential solution! No, one of the solutions. Nations succeed by creating a political system. It starts with creating a political system. Then, how will we create a nationalist conscience? By arts, literature, and creativity! How to establish one collective memory? By curriculums, media, and so on! How to rebuild the Sudanese character? We create a punctual economic model for production that provides a new concept of work. But all of this relies on the political system and political stability. Without political stability, we can’t go anywhere! This long-term instability in Sudan. Is it attributed to the lack of proper management of political parties? In other words, the Sudanese will! Or is it schemed by the previous colonizer? Because Dr. Muhammad Othman Abdel-Malik said that Sudan's separation was planned before the independence. The Separation is a historical event now. It isn’t of much significance now! Sudan is in labor now, to put it accurately! All these events that hinder life and present the conflict as tense have positive effects too! Labor is a rebirth at the end of the day! All the screams and pain… must create something new! I think that we’re somewhat improved now. We gained more insight into our issues, especially among the youth. Nowadays, when discussing with the youth, you’ll find more sense of belonging to this geography than older people. Because they weren’t involved in the 70s conflict! They are liberated from it! They are less discerning of their ethnic and racial differences. Because they studied together in universities and visited each other! Also, the openness of the media that allowed them to get to know their culture. So, they are more cultured. But they are on their own without leading politics, so they can’t make changes! Is the youth percentage high? Yes, the largest population in Sudan is youth, 70%! Sudan is a young country! It has a large percentage of youth! So, in my belief, this labor… And this isn’t optimism or pessimism. It will lead to positive outcomes! We haven’t ever discussed the relationship between the military and politics as we do now! Never discussed! We watched quietly! So, we can say not to dismiss the military from politics! Instead, create a formula for its political involvement! What’s the harm? It is a new concept in our discussions! Our discussion is focused on falling behind because of marginalization! It is obvious now that even those who claim they were marginalized are doing the same thing to others! They are exposed! So, this discussion can be… If we create truthful, informative platforms to tackle this discussion and bring it closer to reality, the change will be positive! So, do you think there is light at the end of the tunnel? Naturally, there must be light at the end of the tunnel. It must be there even if it took us long to get to it! There must be light! This intellectual ability indicates a healthy nation. Nations are at risk when they fail to think! Let alone the efficiency of the thinking! One of the awareness forms is diagnosing the problem. It is a healthy sign, but it isn’t enough! We should expect more! I wasn't and will never be pessimistic in any shape or form about Sudan's future! On the contrary, I believe the current crisis is labor. It could last longer or cost much! But the higher the cost, the higher the positivity! How so? Because when you pay a high cost to get something, you will take good care of it. More cautious than if it was cheap! I don’t wish for a higher cost! Because this cost is economic collapse and souls! It is high! But I believe that if Sudanese were left to tackle their issues without interference, they would succeed! Do you think that more separations are the solution? No, not at all! In fact, I want the South back! Of course, I wish it would rejoin! It is a wish, after all. You can’t put people to choose whether to separate or stay with the one they have conflicts with. Of course, they will choose to separate. But it isn’t a solution anyway. On the contrary! It harms those separated in the south and the mother country! I don’t perceive the Southerner as a non-Sudanese person! I never feel that in day-to-day interactions! On the contrary, we have many things in common. Most importantly, the language he uses is the same language I use. We both communicate in Arabic. It is a sense of unity! We’re not talking about sentimental aspects. But we mustn’t devalue the sentiments of nations. It is a very important aspect! People aren’t inanimate objects! All nations have this sentimental aspect. If this sentimental aspect was utilized, it would lead to good things. In the December revolution, the youth who protested in front of the general council were cheering, “Darfur is the whole country!”. It is a great sentiment! But it should be properly invested to avoid another disaster like Darfur’s! Not in the east, west, north, or south! So, I believe that we will survive it. These are not dramatic claims! But it is a reality in the making due to the advanced awareness level! I would like to know what actually happened after the Separation of the South from the North! I believe they were connected, and there were relationships before that border! Is there a visa to access both the North and South? Do the people of the south travel to the north for their business? I believe some people lived in the South but worked in the North and vice versa! There are tribal borders between the north and south, until now. They are mostly shepherding groups. So, if you can ask a person for a visa to access the South, you won’t ask that from a cow, camel, or sheep! The cattle are used to the environment and don’t fathom borders. These border tribes didn't sense a change. The borders between the North and the South are not precisely defined now. But there is movement and access. If Southerners want to go to North Sudan, they take a permit from the consulate. But, practically, the relationship between the Northerners and Southerners is still… I understand the privacy of South Sudan. If I sit with one of the South, you would tell we weren’t from the same country. Coming from the point of view that distinguishes the color and features! As if Americans were all looking the same! It is a bit… But this relationship progresses depending on the political stability in both countries. But now we try to survive this labor while the South is under a huge political crisis. It is going to be good. I wish for a brighter future for Sudan and all Arab and Islamic countries. Amen! -May Allah grant you wellness! -Thank you very much. -You honored us by being here! -May Allah bless you! Thank you. Thank you! [Credits] This was Finjan, a product of thmanyah. We publish with love, from Riyadh. Until next week!

Saying that Sudan&#39;s politics is harmed by the military intervention. Why did you create political entities in the military in the first place? If you want to maintain military professionalism! Right! Why did you create political entities in the military? Aha! You created these entities, so when your political project fails, you’ll seize authority by force! Politics is not about being optimistic or pessimistic! It is about being realistic! The South Separation is the gateway to other separations. In Sudan? Yes! Unless... Translated by Latifa Alharbi. This is Finjan from thmanyah,
and I am Abdulrahman Abumalih. My guest today is the Sudanese author, political researcher, and media figure Ghassan Ali Othman. I’d like to know what actually happens in Sudan through this episode. Why is there no political stability since the colonization ended 70 years ago? Also, the many coups! So, understanding what happens in Sudan will give us a better understanding of the news. And would inform us more about the Sudan situation and its future. Which makes this episode important to me. There’s a previous episode about Yemen. It was informative and helped to understand the situation in Yemen. It is a Finjan previous episode, which you can watch. Such an episode is essential because it gives me insight into this country&#39;s news. But first, I must understand the context. This episode provides the historical context of Sudan’s diverse and varietal population. And how that was affected by the separation between the South and the North. Before we start, please share this episode with whoever is interested through WhatsApp or social media. And please suggest guests and topics to be discussed in Finjan On the email
fnjan@thmanyah.com Now, let’s start! -So you greet by placing your hands on the shoulder!
-On the right side, yes! Every culture has a way of greeting! Yeah! This is our way! For both men and women? What? Do you greet men and women the same way? Yes, the same way. A friend of mine, Syrian. He was learning our greeting gestures and said it looked like the Nazi salute! Like the Nazis. Ok! But no hugs? Of course, there is, but depending on the relationship. A close person gets a hug. They were influenced by the Arab greeting (kiss on both cheeks). But we don’t do that in Sudan. Because of Covid! No, generally! Covid is a new thing! Covid is new! -Let’s discuss modern Sudan.
-Go ahead! The Christians in Sudan and the introduction of Islam. Nowadays, Muslims are 95% of Sudan&#39;s population. Exactly! So, it is the majority. Of course! Dr. Mohammad Abu Alqasim -Haj Hamad!
-Yes! In his book, Sudan, The Historical Predicament, he said that “Sudan is a country that lives a… Superficial unity and deep diversity? Exactly! I would like to know more about these varieties in Sudan. I wrote a book about Mohammad Abu Alqasim. About his book, Jadaliyat Al-tarkib (The Structuring Controversy) Which has two volumes, The Historical Predicament, and The Future Horizons. The diversity of Sudan is large, it is like an archipelago. Which has, according to the last statistics before the 2011 Separation, nineteen population groups. With 597 tribes! Large! -You noticed it is a large number!
-It is! Actually, 597 tribes! What do you mean by ‘actually’? This number is a result of a census, not an approximation! Before 2011, Sudan had 597 tribes. Before the South Separation. So, the variety is a vast topic. But people sometimes use &#39;variety&#39; interchangeably with &#39;diversity&#39;. Sudan doesn’t have varieties, but diversities. That is, you can make a tribal classification, but not exclusively! As in a group is totally different from another. On the contrary, these groups are overlapping. You can pinpoint differences, but these cultural regions are overlapping! For example, you can’t claim that a tribe of the East has an exclusive identity that isn’t affected by the North, middle, and West! Which is the reality. So, ‘diversity’ is the more accurate expression, not the variety of one, two, and three! Did you get it? So, to be more accurate, Sudan has ethnic, racial, and cultural diversity. Not ‘variety’, which can be used to describe enclosed groups. Like in Iraq. 
There are separate Chaldean groups and Kurd groups. There are no similarities except for the natural influences. But they have enclosed ethnicities with special identities in Arab regions. Like the Amazigh (Berbers) people in Morocco, who have an ethnic background different from the Arab one. So, Sudan doesn’t have such enclosures. But ethnicities are overlapping. Therefore, I prefer to say ‘the cultural diversity of Sudan’ whether it was ethnic or else. Not ‘variety’! Even in South Sudan, the Nilotic tribes are largely influenced. That all three tribes of the South cannot communicate with another language than Arabic! So, Arabic is the common feature! Of course! Can you imagine its influence? Ok, talking about diversity. There is tribal diversity which is represented by the 597 tribes. Before the Separation! So, we have Islam! And Christianity. Islam is mostly Sufism! Are there Sunnah and Shia schools? The majority of Muslims follow Sufism. But I meant that the Sufi school in Sudan created the religious phenomenon in Sudan. -It is behind it!
-Ok! Then, after the Turkish and Egyptian rule, it changed. So, there are Muslims. Are they all Sunnah? Relatively I would like to understand the Sudan varieties! Of course! So, after discussing the tribes, what about religion? The majority are Muslims. There are no religious groups in Sudan, like Shia or Sunnah. Because of Sufism, basically. Exactly! Because there are two types of Sufism, Sunnah Sufism, and Shia Sufism. The Sudan Sufism is Sunni! Which has the adoration of Ahl Al-Bayt (Prophet Muhammad family) in common with Shia Sufism. But Shia school isn’t popular in Sudan because it would require a Fatwa-based (religious rules) or reference-based religious phenomenon. Religion is natural in Sudan. The title of ‘state Mufti’ (highest-ranking jurist) is common in Arab countries. But don’t have such a thing as Mufti! Because most people refer to their Sheikh (the person who has the most knowledge of religion in a group), who is their leader. See how it is! So, Shia school is less popular in Sudan mainly because of the religion&#39;s natural, soft, and subtle nature. It merged with the old religions. This subtleness made many former spiritual religions find their way through Islam in Sudan. Which is behind not having a religious institution! There are social structures based on the Sufi way. A Sheikh could come from the far west. 
For example, from Salé, Morocco.  To settle in a certain geographic area, and people would settle near him after he had taught Quran, which creates a city. This is one of the sociological basis of creating a city, among which are religion, trade, or conquests. The case in Sudan is that cities were created on a religious basis. A Sheikh gathered people around him. That’s why you’d find, especially by the Nile side, many areas named after Sheikhs. Like? Like Abu Haraz area, who was a Sheikh. Or the Tabat Sheikh Abdel-Mahmoud’s, the Sammaniyya leader. Or Hasan wad Husouna area. These areas are urban because they were established on agriculture. Applying this to myself, I’m from Sudan’s far north. Sheikhs played a part in the state itself when there was a state. So, when the colonization began… The famous manifesto by Herbert Kitchener,  who led the colonization. He said he would reinforce the same social order, which made Sheikhs gain a political advantage later. Yes, political presence. This was regarding Muslims, so what about Christians? There are large numbers of Coptic Christians. What about the Jewish people? The last Jews left Sudan in the midst 80s. Because the country issued a statement about enforcing Islamic laws in 1983. Ok! This statement led many Jews to leave Sudan, as well as Christians. Those who remained so far, since the 19th century, are the Coptics. Which are considered a minority because they are small numbers and live in enclosed areas. Usually, the Coptics live together in specific districts.   The Sudanese Christianity isn’t Coptic Orthodox. But Catholic and Protestant Christianity. The Coptics are Orthodox. So, the main Sudanese church is the Catholic, then the Protestants or Angelic Church, and lastly, the Coptic Orthodox Church. But the Jewish people were in Sudan since ancient times. Since... To be accurate,  the Jewish appeared in Sudan during the Christian period. A Jewish synagogue (Kanees) was found in some relics nearby the Nile. It&#39;s named, as it was diminutivized, Kunaisa (from Kanees). Until today! It’s marked. The least number of Jews was in Sudan. As known that Egypt, Yemen, and Morocco have a larger Jewish population. The least is Sudan, which is attributed to the nature of Sudan’s economy. The Jews prefer urban areas where there is commercial activity, not agriculture! Sudan is an agricultural country, and farming is its main economic activity. Even the coastal areas? Exactly, Sudan is an agricultural country. It is the largest riverbed of the Nile. It is one and a half times longer than the Nile in Egypt. Also, it is the only country in the region nourished by two river streams. One stream is from Uganda, Lake Victoria, and the other is from Ethiopia’s Lake Tana. So that Sudan is called the Two Niles Land. Because there is the Blue Nile and the White Nile. Upon their union, the famous Nile flows into Egypt. But it depends on these two streams, basically. So, Sudan is an agricultural country. And it is… In the 80s, Arab countries had a famous slogan: Sudan is the Arab world’s food basket. There was a project in which Sudan contributed by land, Saudi by funds, and Egypt and Syria contributed with technology. Since agriculture is an ancient craft in Egypt and the Levant. This project started in 1984 but ended around the 90s. It was called: Sudan is the Arab world food basket. Because Sudan has the most fertile land. Why did it stop? It didn’t succeed for political reasons, the lack of political stability. -In Sudan!
-Yes. Sudan is suffering from political disturbance since 1956. -Since the independence!
-Yes! Before discussing the political crisis. Is this variety… I’m saying ‘variety’ because I’m counting them. Is it a result of war migrations or because of Sudan’s nature? Why are there such varieties? The culture varieties in Sudan… Every region has native inhabitants. Isn&#39;t it so? Like the Red Indians in America. These indigenous inhabitants, which are there since the beginning of history. And the most important indigenous inhabitants are the Nubians in north Sudan. Which is an extension of the south Egypt Nubia. The same Nubia demographic is in both South Egypt and North Sudan, separated by political boundaries. And in eastern Sudan, there are the Beja people, which is an ancient group. Reading for old Arab explorers, like Al-Masudi’s The Meadows of Gold, you’d find correspondence between the Beja kings and the Abbasid caliphs. The same applies to the Nubia kingdoms of the north. There are two types of Nubia, one in the north of Sudan, and another in the west-south of Sudan, the Nubia Mountains. They are the Negritudes, which means they are the Zanj tribes. It is a very ancient demographic. The south of Sudan, where the Nilotic tribes reside. Tribes like the Dinka, Shilluk, and Nuer. All are indigenous tribes. The societies are also formed by migrations, like the old Arab migration, which established the Arabic language there. The Arab migrations were from certain directions, like Egypt. And from a tribe like Juhaynah (Arab tribe). The Arabs migrated to Sudan.  And other Magharebi (Moroccan) migrations, from Morocco. It happened in ancient times. And since east Sudan was the largest port, it was the gateway of migrations. The Arab group is determined by features like their mother tongue, the Arabic language. The indigenous groups of the society have their own languages. -Until now?
-Yes, until now. It isn’t strange to a person like me, whose mother tongue is Arabic… To fail to understand a word in the Nubia areas. This applies to the East and West too! But they all understand Arabic! As I told you, the most common feature of this diversity is the Arabic language. Even the South Sudan tribes of the African race communicate with the Arabic language. The South Sudan capital is Juba, and the Arabic variety used there is called Arabi Juba. It is Arabic but in a local colloquial. Like any colloquial in the Arab world. Aren’t the Sudan tribes, in the north and the south, all African tribes? It depends… Because you just gave a… It depends on… This binary identity of Arabism and Africanism is present in other regions with different names. That is… In the 20s and 30s, the Egyptians had the question: are we Arab or Pharaohs? In Syria: are we Arab or Assyrians? Isn&#39;t it so? The geographical location of a country like Sudan ends in the south of a desert. If you look at the map, the east extension ends in the south of the desert. The African identity means there was an ethnic hybridization. Which is a nature of all societies, not only Sudan. There’s no pure society! The only person who insisted on a pure-blood society was Hitler! The German purity! Sudan has Arabic groups who migrated to the land, and indigenous African groups, which made us look like a way that combines both features. So by saying Arabic groups, you refer to groups from the Arabic peninsula! Yes, of course! Arab tribes that migrated and settled in Sudan. These migrations continued, found the indigenous population, and mingled with them. They came with a cultural project through which their language and religion were introduced. So, naturally, they were the most influential, although they were the least in numbers! Because they had the tools of social alteration. In comparison to the large population, a small group made their language the main language. And their religion became the main religion. It is called the creative minority in sociology. There are minorities with the tools of civilization who generalize their presence where they settle. Therefore, when someone wonders, ‘Are we Arab or Africans?’ It is more of a rhetorical question. Unscientific question! Because societies are naturally mixed. They mingle with each other. This mingling can be measured by some standards. One of the issues in Arab culture is the association of identity with race. Which is an illusion, naturally. There’s no association because race isn’t a choice. Right? You don’t choose to be black, white, red, or green! But your identity is based on your choices! You choose to speak and think in a certain way! So, since the 20s, Sudan is questioning: Are we Arabs… Or Africans? It was mostly illustrated in literature,  poetry, and so on. In… 1926, if I was accurate The renowned poet Saleh Abdel-Qadir said: “If I was inspected by you, oh daughter of the Nile You would find lions beneath my garment You would find in me a virtuous and noble You would find the ignorance of the black and the dreams of the white” This binary identity of white and black. There were major cultural movements, like the Jungle and Desert movements in Sudan. The symbolism refers to the Africans as Jungle and Arabs as the Desert. It was influenced by Leopold Senghor. The great Senghor used to tackle this binary of Arabism and Africanism, in Senegal. Imagine that this question is still alive today in Sudan. There’s a sort of resistance,  are we Arabs or Africans? Do we entirely belong to an African identity or to the Middle East? I call them unreasonable questions. Because the main indicator of any identity isn’t race, but mainly language and culture. The point is that Sudan’s name, which is spread across the continent to Senegal, It is a name of a color, Sud (blacks). Sudan is the land of black people. In Nigeria, they are Negritudes.  The Niger are the niggers. Therefore, in the debate over the proper classification of the Sudanese. I am against the meaningless question of “Arab or African?” Couldn’t it be both? It could be three, four, and five! It isn&#39;t this complicated! -So, you could be African, Arab, and Muslim!
-Of course! The African part, which is geographical, applies to the Algerian and Egyptian too! -Isn’t it right?
-Yes. The Tunisian and the Libyan! Is the Saudi even Asian?  Same question! I don’t have any relation to Japan! What made such a question present in Sudan are the African boundaries that end there. We always say that Sudan is the Arabs&#39; entryway into Africa. Which is very accurate, by the way. The Arabs who lived in the region mingled with… We’re talking about the south of the desert. So that one of South Sudan’s political arguments is “Why do you claim that we are Arabs while we only share geography?” But it is a natural argument, not a novel one! It is the same case with the Spanish and Italians! The people of Sicily claim that they are more Italian than the Lombardi, people in the north. Which is a natural controversy, and it is not exclusive to Sudan. More so, the reason is that the African presence, which is associated with color and features is more in Sudan than in the Arabic Peninsula which has many colors and features, but it is lesser than in Sudan. Which all fall under what I call fake causes. It is not of good use to remain a prisoner of the binary conflict, Arab or African. In Sudan, someone would argue that they are not Arab! Why is that? Because to Arab countries, we are considered Africans! How come? So if someone tells you that you are Arab, will you agree? Why do you need external self-identification? You should be aware of who you are. Therefore, the Arab identity in Sudan is a cultural identity, not a racial identity. It doesn&#39;t negate that we are the offspring of the combination of the migrated Arab tribes, the indigenous people, and the African tribes. Which is the A, B, and C of social structure in the universe. It isn’t unusual!  And who perceives it otherwise is not thinking right! These ethnic varieties and diversity in Sudan are found everywhere. It could even be considered the least distinct diversity. Take Lebanon as an example! It has distinct cultural diversity! Distinct! -A strong… 
-Categorical! Yes! But in Saudi and Gulf countries, we are similar in many ways and have many tribes. Even within Saudi, there is diversity! The people of Hijaz differ from the Eastern Province people.
So do the Southerners, Northerners, and Najd. Various cultural diversities! But this didn’t stop most countries, including foreign countries like Spain and America that have such diversity. But it didn’t stop them from creating a state! This variety did not hinder them, if not a strength! Yeah! But while researching, I found that many Sudanese intellectuals attribute the inability to make a state in Sudan to this diversity! You, and... Hasan Al-Truabi, Muhammad Abu Al-Qasim, and Dr. Muhammad Othman Abdel-Maalik. All of you agreed that diversity is the greatest issue! Is it actually an obstacle to creating a stable country? A state is the highest form of agreement on the citizenship of a society. Any state should represent all of its diverse demographic groups. So, to put it simply, when you reside in a certain geography in a state that doesn’t acknowledge you, represent you, or let you benefit from your land’s riches It will, naturally, start a political conflict! -Isn’t it right?
-Yes! If you reside in South Sudan, where oil was discovered in the 80s, and the central state decided not to build a refinery in the same location oil was discovered, but to build it in the center of Sudan. This is starting the fire, isn’t it? If this wasn’t the case,  revenues of the development extracted from your land must affect your life directly! It must develop your education, health care, and other aspects! We have two problems other than diversity. We have unbalanced development. And the state failed to represent this diversity in a way each Sudanese person can belong to the state. Political scientists divided these rights into moral and direct rights. Moral rights mean If there was a group of people with a certain language was suppressed that they couldn&#39;t even write or speak this language, they would resist, naturally! They could hold a weapon against you too! Like what is happening in Sudan, in the Nubia mountains. One of the arguments of the people who led the conflict in the Nubia Mountains is “We’re not represented or acknowledged by the state! And there is Arab dominance! Minority dominance! And we are forced into a different culture and language!” So, these are reasons for political conflict! Saying that “the state failed” in Sudan is relative! Because there is no particular failure. But the case is that since 1956 until now, the Sudanese, or the ones who raised the flag on 1/1/1956, couldn’t create a political project which represented all Sundanese whether they were Arab, Africans, Nubians, or Beja! All these classifications couldn’t find themselves in the state! How do you find yourself in the state? By not having a cultural minority dominating all state positions! Won&#39;t work! Or to concentrate development on some areas while other areas are neglected! All of this induces a political conflict! So, to put it accurately, we didn’t manage the diversity in Sudan well! It isn’t a problem exclusive to Sudan, but many have it. But regarding Sudan, the diversity wasn’t properly managed! How to manage this diversity well? When you create an educational curriculum, it must represent the collective memory of the entire nation. North, East, and South! Not to only narrate the story of one group! Everyone must find themselves in it! Secondly, there wasn’t any attempt to balance development. That makes the countryside as developed as the city and urban areas as developed as villages with equal services. Weapons were held alongside the famous slogan: &quot;Economic marginalization!&quot; The developmental marginalization. The area I belong to is less serviced, while other areas have services! It wasn’t deliberately designed this way! To be factual. We are not saying that a political group settled in Khartoum and decided to give this and deprive that! There wasn’t political stability that enabled designing a balanced developmental strategy to ensure everyone’s rights! Which makes services a right of every Sudanese. Any development is conditional to political stability. Politics before economy! You should ensure political stability to create economic growth! Even moral rights cannot be guaranteed without political stability! Why there wasn’t political stability since the independence? Many reasons. Firstly Some would say that… Political parties had conflicts, and they ignored the nation&#39;s interests. They fought over chairs until military coups obstructed democracy, which took Sudan back to square one. But this is just the surface of the issue! Yes!  Because there was never a military coup in Sudan, to begin with! One of the lies! -There wasn’t?
-There wasn’t! There wasn’t any military coup in Sudan! There were more than 13 coups! -But they weren’t military coups!
-What were they then? I know it is surprising. A military coup is when a military institution... -Right?
-Mhm! takes authority by force,  suppresses freedoms,  and cancels or freezes political activities. Isn’t this the nature of coups? The first military coup (air quoting) was in November 1958. The military didn’t even make a coup in Sudan. The prime minister of Sudan at that time asked the general leader of the military to seize authority in 1958. Authority remained with the military as requested by the civil parties! From 1958 until its collapse in the 1964 revolution. It cannot be defined as a military coup because it was a request from the prime minister. -Is this the Mahdist revolution?
-No, it was 1958. From General Abboud&#39;s government collapse in 1964 until 1969, the communist Sudanese party with the Nasirists… -Whose government was it?
-General Ibrahim Abboud! -A military figure?
-Yes! But it wasn&#39;t in the sense of a military coup because it was requested by civilians! -He didn’t lead a coup!
-Ok! The following coup in 1969 was when four primary parties… I will explain why I said that It was a simple reason The political parties recruited military personnel in the military institution that ideologically belonged to them. And then, they lead the coup representing the party. Is it a military coup or a political coup? Political parties coup! Not military. I will give you evidence of that… But using the military! It isn’t… sensible to have a military organization while you are just a political party! It isn’t comprehensible! Just imagine the Democratic or Republican parties in America with military organizations! It isn’t possible because it is an independent institution without political intervention. But if you used this institution! In 1996, the four parties, the Communist, Nasirist, Ba’thist, and Nationalist parties pushed the late president, Jaafar Nimeiry, to seize power representing the four parties. Ok! It lasted from 1969 until 1985. From 1985 until 1989, the Muslim Brotherhood, or as it is called, The National Islamic Front urged the former president, Omar al-Bashir, to lead a coup. So, it is a military coup! It is not… A military coup is when the military institution seizes power! But I told you that political parties had a military organization, and they schemed these coups until zero hour and appointed the leader who ideologically belonged to them to take control. Is it a military coup or a coup organized by political parties? -Military!
-How so? When al-Bashir took over, he was incarcerated by the Brotherhood! -No, it didn’t happen!
-But it is… -No, it didn’t happen
-It didn’t! He and Al-Turabi were incarcerated! No, they weren’t. Dr. Hasan Al-Turabi’s tactic was that the Brotherhood military organization would initiate a coup on 30/1/1989. And to hide the arrangement from the region and Sudanese, the major political leaders must be imprisoned. To create a charade that is always referred to in Sudan politics: &quot;I will go to prison as a prisoner, and you will go to the palace as a president. Until further notice!&quot; So, no one was incarcerated! Who did the 1989 coup? It’s my specialty! The 1989 coup was made by the Muslim Brotherhood! And the 1969 coup was made by the Communist party, and the Sudanese left! And the 1958 coup was made by the National Umma party! So, how come anyone claims they were military coups? So, they are political party coups! Exactly! All of these coups were initiated by decisions made by the political party office! A decision! The political office of the Umma party gathered in 1958 and collectively decided to hand authority to the military. The central committee of the Communist Sudanese Party gathered to decide that the military should seize authority. The Shura Council of the Muslim Brotherhood gathered and decided to give power to the military! So, which military coup was ever initiated by a political, civil party decision? It isn’t a military coup! So they are political coups. Why does Sudan have the most coups in the Arab World? No, not the most! Most coups happened in Iraq. It isn’t correct. And Syria! Not the most coups, if you talk about numbers! Yes! No, Sudan isn’t number one. It is Iraq, then Syria! Syria had coups of Husni Al-Za’im, Al-atassi, and Adib Shishakli in the 50s. So, it is the country with the most coups. But your question could be, why Sudan has so many military coups? Because the political parties cannot be patient for the political field to develop. So, once there is… What pushed the Ummah party to hand power to the military in 1958 was that there were a few days left for the parliament assembly, in which Abdullah Khalil’s government would be taken down, and another party would gain authority. So, they didn’t want that transfer to happen and urged the military to seize authority. In 1965, the political parties had conflicts on the nature of Sudan’s constitution. So, they dissolved the communist party and dismissed it from the parliament. So it requested the military to seize power in a vindictive response to the dismissal. In 1989, Sadiq Al-Mahdi and the Muslim Brotherhood were pressured to hand power from the governments he created. They asked the military to initiate a coup! Did you get it? These are facts, documented facts! Not a chatter! No, these are Sudan’s historical facts. These impatient political parties who couldn&#39;t wait for the political field to develop called the military to take over to have exclusive authority! It applies to the Umma party in the 50s, the Communists in 1969, and the Brotherhood in 1989. What’s funny is that all these figures who asked the military to seize power were the first to be rid of once the military was in authority. They reaped... what they sowed! The reason behind these coups and political disturbances in Sudan. Is the dominion of instability attributed to land conflicts, political borders between the North and South,  or ideological differences&#39; conflicts? Overall… What you said regarding the ideologies was accurate! The political conflict in Sudan is very intense! Do you know that Sudan&#39;s independence was a result of a major political crisis? It was surprising that independence was announced by that time! The political activities started in the 30s. With the assembly of the Graduates Congress in 1938. It was an assembly of the educated people of Sudan. The central social structure of Sudan can be described as three-dimensional. Tribal groups: represented by tribal leaders, which is a major social role. Secondly, the leaders of religious groups. Not jurisprudential school-wise groups, but Sufi groups. In the 30s, the intellectuals of Sudan were added to the equation. Those who graduated from modern schools in the 1920s. Education started early in Sudan. Khartoum University was established in 1902. -Wow!
-Oh yes! It was established in 1902 but wasn’t called Khartoum University. It was called Gordon College when it was established in 1902. Upon the emergence of these three groups, the political controversy was about whether Sudan should have independence from Egypt and Britain or unite with Egypt. The two poles were either independence or union! This political conflict went on and directly induced the creation of political parties. In the 40s. Sudan’s political parties were born from political conflicts, but it is not natural! They must be created according to economic, social, and political programs. That is, each party presents its program and proposes a candidate to be elected to rule. As simple as that! But the case is these parties were created under the pressure of political conflict. This pressure kept going until now! There are internal and external factors. Looking at politics, you can’t ignore the external factors. Which is sometimes called a conspiracy theory, as if they conspired. But a conspiracy cannot be effective unless the internal factors support it. Simply. I am not a pro-conspiracy theory, but I believe that political elites failed, since Sudan&#39;s independence, to agree on a national project where Sudanese people find themselves, socially, ethnically, and culturally represented by it. The political parties could not practice democracy among themselves. Do you know that a party president will be in that position for 60 years? Just one person! Therefore, there are no parties! These aren’t structured as parties but as families! Because when the president dies, his son succeeds him! These are hereditary structures! Not democracy, in which authority is passed on! So, the small party structure itself isn’t practicing this democracy! No leadership rotation! So, how come an inefficient party creates a political project? It isn’t possible! What stops them from having new parties? Even new parties… Sudan has ideological parties, like the left and right, which is understandable. And modern parties, like the left. These modern parties used to classify societies as either conservative or progressive in the 60s. They classified people as progressive or conservative. They are small parties with less representation in society. Because the nature of society creates the efficiencies of political, economic, and religious systems. The Sudan society is more of a religious, Sufi structure. This structure creates resistance when you introduce new ideologies. Therefore, one of the things that must be addressed is the failure of political parties to present a political program, and wait for their democratic process to unravel, and don’t hasten to seize authority by force, as they did in Sudan. I completely think the military institution is innocent of any coups in Sudan. The military institution didn’t solely initiate… As if the general woke up one morning and decided to make a coup! There is no such thing in our history! The latest decision made by Al-Burhan wasn’t his own! There are political incubators behind it. Which changed the situation! So that I always negate the claim of military intervention Because the military didn’t initiate a coup, but the political parties did! And invited the military to join politics. It was invited by creating political entities within the institution! It doesn’t make sense, isn’t it? Saying that Sudan&#39;s politics is harmed by the military intervention. Why did you create political entities in the military in the first place? If you want to maintain military professionalism! Why did you create political entities in the military? Aha! You created these entities, so when your political project fails, you’ll seize authority by force! Right! Which is what happened! Will the separation of South Sudan ease the intensity of the conflict? It already happened, the separation! Will this separation make North Sudan less conflictive? Aha, I understand now! Did this separation create stability in South Sudan? Never! Even the South! Of course! Exactly! The South Sudan Independence… I don’t want to use harsh words, but the reality is that there is no state in South Sudan! No state! There is only a racial authority! And everyone who resists or opposes this authority will end up either imprisoned, killed, or banished. No state! And the collapse of South Sudan&#39;s economy is evidence of that. 80% of Sudan’s oil is in the south, so as a less populated country with around 4 million people, with 80% of the million square miles country&#39;s oil! Aren’t these the development factors that would create a great country in a few years? The reality is the failure of the state and the collapse of its economy! In addition to the war between the South’s tribes! When the South held weapons against the North, they overlooked their internal conflicts, which is the very nature of South Sudan! Due to tribal extreme conflict! The first peace agreement in South Sudan was in 1972. Ok! It lasted until 1983. Simply, the tribal conflict in South Sudan negated the Addis Ababa peace agreement in 1983. Same as when the South separated after the 2005 agreement, the South suddenly discovered that society had a severe tribal conflict. So, one tribe dominates the political landscape and suppresses the others. Did it create stability? No! On the contrary… To be accurate… Politics is not about being optimistic or pessimistic! It is about being realistic! The South Separation is the gateway to other separations. -In Sudan?
-Yes! Of course! Unless! Which is the missing piece! It is a necessity that all Sudanese, in all shapes and forms of political entities, gather to agree to answer a very important question. Their question was: will I rule, or will you rule? But instead, they should ask the question: how to rule? This question is important! How to rule such a country, instead of wondering who would rule. That is, a new political system must be created! It is a must to create a new political system! If we fail to create a political system that allows the rotation of authority, then separations will happen! East, West, and North! A possibility! It is proven everywhere in the world! States would separate when they fail to create a political system, they would collapse! It would collapse! Separation and self-rule are political expressions. Like Kurdistan’s deal with Iraq, between Erbil and the central government! To create a separate stable state without conflict. We’re talking about the crisis of the collapse. Isn&#39;t it so? Any country without a political system will collapse! Of course, there is no one size fits all political system model! Each country, Arab or otherwise, has private nature known to its people! The nature of their crisis and conflicts is known to its citizens! So, they are the ones who create a system! Thinking of democracy or liberalism isn’t fundamental, just valueless slogans! In philosophy, it was always said that ideas’ values are based on their benefits. The value of ideas is based on their benefits! An idea without benefit isn’t necessary! Not necessarily have democracy if it wasn’t beneficial! That’s why… Saying that isn’t about being optimistic or pessimistic, but Sudanese intellectuals, especially those in political parties, must take off the ideological cloak and tend to the public interest. The public interest will detect dangers! Meanwhile, Sudan is a very rich country! And this isn’t fictional! It is factual! I could say that Sudan is the richest country in the region! With its resources! There is an abundance of farming land and types of agriculture. Rainfed agriculture and irrigated agriculture! Fertile soil! The Gold! The strategic geographic location! We have the Red Sea and the Gulf in the east. And we are the gateway to Africa through the western part! And in the south of the desert! So, there is no reason for Sudan to suffer economic crises! These economic crises are attributed to the severe political crisis. There was no political stability, which is the only way to achieve economic growth in any country! Although the country had good economic conditions during the colonization! As Muhammad Abu Al-Qasim stated. “We inherited a good economy but couldn’t maintain it.” Mr. Muhammad said the right words, but not the accurate ones! What did colonization do to Sudan? They started the Al-Jazeera project, the largest cotton production to export to Lancashire factories in Britain. Sudan’s share of was… No one can deny the infrastructure done by colonization! They built railways across the country, from east to west and north to south. But colonialism doesn’t create an economy! Colonization creates an economy that serves it, a colonial economy! Which enables it to manage this country and thrive on its resources! Colonization didn’t come to pat me on the back! It takes my primal resources to export to Britain’s factories! As well as your heritage and gold! So, many intellectuals have nostalgia. That Sudan was… As well as other Arab countries, such as Egypt. They say Cairo streets were washed with soap! Look at this dirt now! This is nostalgia! But if we make a real analysis… It is right that when we raised the flag in 1956, the Aljazeera project made the largest part of the public fund. But how much was the population in 1956? 8 million! Now, it is 40 million people! Logically! Aljazeera project used to fund and so… But was there a long civil war going from 1955 to 2005? There wasn’t! So, looking only at how things were like before the flag was raised means overlooking the recent political and social situation. South Sudan was at war since the first rebellion in 1955, before the independence! The independence was in January 1956. This war kept going until 1972. So, since the country was established, it is at war! For 22 years, or is it so? From 1955 to 1972 is a long time! The war stopped in 1972, and the peace only lasted for nine years until 1983. It was resumed from 1983 until 2005. So, going back to Abu al-Qasim&#39;s words, isn’t this recent situation affecting it? It affects it! Besides, the Darfur was! And the Nubia Mountains war! And the Blue Nile war! So, during this fragmentation and conflict, how come we say we didn’t maintain it? No one can praise colonisation! It isn&#39;t commendable! I believe that Muhammad Abu Al-Qasim was one of Sudan’s greatest intellectuals! He gave a thorough, objective critique of Sudan’s political and social history. But we should consider the recent changes! You claim that the only solution for Sudan is to have a new political system. Doesn’t this require a figure or a party that everyone agrees on? This is about changing the charismatic figure concept that sociologists talk about. There is nothing such as a charismatic figure. The main concern is the institution now! My point is, we... Change isn’t an effort of one party. Or one charismatic figure like Abdul Nasser. No! Nor Hamdok! Now, the world has changed! It is an institutional change! Which means setting general features for the intellectual process in the state. This isn’t theoretical! If we say please conduct a constitutional congress in Sudan to address the rule system, the economic and developmental marginalization, and the Sudan identity. For all the Sudanese, with no exceptions. This is what’s needed. Countries are created according to this concept. I don’t think humanity created another mechanism besides compromise! Issues all around the world are solved by a great compromise. A country might face a huge predicament that could be a military crisis! That people become loaded with weapons! But eventually, such crises will be solved by compromise! How to make a compromise? To start by understanding that Sudan doesn’t belong to political parties! Nor it belongs to the military institution! Nor it belongs to the Intelligentsia! Sudan belongs to all Sudanese people! Therefore, we encourage conducting an open constitutional congress, where each tribe, or geographical region, elects representatives who understand their needs. To sit around that table! We have in Sudan… I’m not saying this to boast, But Sudan is the least violent country in the region, despite the military coups. Less violent! The Sudanese character has different traits! The Sudanese people are not violent, but more inclined to reconciliation, compromise, and peace. Not the intellectual character, but the normal, commoner Sudanese! We have a legacy of tolerance! The traditional way, like the Judiyyah. It is a reconciliation agreement far more effective than the state. If a person murdered one, two, or three. According to law, he’ll be executed! By order of the court of law! But the tradition interferes, which is the Judiyyah. In which the grieving family asks for a verdict, and they eventually forgive! We have a legacy and tradition of tolerance in the Sudanese social structure. So, do you attribute these long-going wars to the intellectuals? Yes! Sudan was harmed by political party intellectuals! Because the ordinary intellectual has no power! But the party intellectual recruits people of the military to seize power by force! This is the party intellectual! But the common intellectual lacks power. Most of these issues, even in Arab countries, are caused by the elites! The crisis is the elites. Our crisis is our elites because they are separated from society! So that they cannot represent society but only express their benefit! They make use of their privilege, but not in favor of others! Although the reality is that this elite is the mediator! Who represents the social system economically, socially, politically, culturally, and identically! Who should represent it all! But the reality is the elites... I don’t want to generalize! But most elites are separated from society into their enclosed society of elites! The privileged! He could be from an area of war and massacre, but he lives and works in the capital, Khartoum! And express his cause eloquently! Despite being a son of that distressed geography, who could actually speak their needs. Did they elect him to represent them? They… We are talking about the educated elite. The people from a tribe who receive education represent the group. What is the illiteracy percentage in Sudan? I don’t have numbers, but it is not small! -High?
-Yes! It isn’t a small percentage! But still is less than in other Arab countries. Since education started early in Sudan. Modern education started in 1902. Which was a long time ago! Mentioning the Sudanese character, I would like to get back to a tweet you posted, “The discussion of the Sudanese character is limited to two aspects: The first one is glorifying and doesn’t acknowledge the flaws. The second one is demeaning and relies on a scale outside of society. And the solution is to acknowledge the radical changes that happened to society, the negative and the positive.” I would like to discuss the first part, what are the Sudanese character flaws? I wrote this because I felt that sociology,  and the people who observe the development of the Sudanese character. It is still a poor aspect of research that lacks theorizing to monitor the changes in the Sudanese character. The character… According to sociology, saying that there is a Saudi, Syrian, and Egyptian character, is describing a mask, not an actual personality! When I say ‘The Saudi character’, is there a Saudi character? -No!
-Of course! There is no particular Egyptian personality either! So, it’s a mask with general features that indicate a Sudanese, a Palestinian, Saudi, Syrian, or Egyptian! So, we have a list of features of the Arab character! That other countries can list! Exactly! It isn’t scientific, of course, but just empty words! The reality is each country has personalities and special, various behavioral patterns. So, I wrote this to urge monitoring the changes that happened to the Sudanese behavior. I once read a news post on social media. About an honoring of a Sudanese shepherd in Saudi for retrieving lost money! So, people started to perceive the Sudanese character as an honest one! I remember having a discussion with an Egyptian friend. I asked him what he thought of the Sudanese character. I asked him what he thought of the Sudanese character. I said that he described a dog! Honest and loyal what? Say something we could understand! Am I a dog now to be honest and loyal? Sorry for the expression! No problem! I wondered what this loyal and honest was! It is like describing a guardian! The point is, there are shifts in the Sudanese character that changed its behavior. Because social behavior depends on economic activity, the political landscape, and personal challenges. So, thinking that we are the best people isn’t objective, nor is thinking we are the worst! Let’s get rid of the binary description! Let’s agree on an approach that studies the changes in the Sudanese character. Saying character means this mask! How others perceive you, not how you perceive yourself! Which is different! As I mentioned earlier, we all have illusions about each other. Right? And we generalize these illusions! Which comes from ignorance! An entire nation cannot be described one way! Otherwise, it is a stupid description! Not all are heroes, nor all villains! So, I meant to inspect this exact mask! Then, look inwardly to understand! This is important because the social factors are the same in politics and production. So, understanding this factor will enable us to predict the problems’ natures. The social factor mustn’t be neglected. Because it is the inducer of coups! Before the action, let’s study the social factor mentality changes to understand the problems! Regarding the second part, the “radical, negative, and positive changes.” Naturally, in all nations! There are always negative and positive changes. So, my main point was that we study the social factor in Sudan to understand how it changes the Sudanese character. To acknowledge that there is no one Sudanese personality. But instead, Sudanese characters! There are general features, of course! When we met earlier, I greeted you by patting you on the shoulder! Yes. And you asked if it was the Sudanese greeting. Patting on the shoulder! It is a general feature, and all Sudanese will greet this way. But we won’t think the same way or share the same perceptions! -Right?
-Exactly! But there are general features which I’m concerned about their changes. Then, dive deeper into the internal changes that lead us to such and such. It is essential! You said in one of your lectures that there is a multitude of Sudanese citizenships. A variety of allegiances! What do you mean by that? I meant that we couldn’t yet get to… The modern state is based on citizenship, not a multitude of smaller allegiances! We still have a conflict of allegiances in our society. The allegiance to the tribe contradicts the allegiance to the state. The allegiance to the political party contradicts the allegiance to the state. So does allegiance to a particular cultural ethnicity. So we have a conflict of allegiances! Is it because the state rejected them? Because we prioritize the party’s interests over the state’s interests! The tribe’s interest over the state’s interest! The intellectual community’s interest over the state’s interest! Why? The ideological conflict! The ideology&#39;s dominance over nationalism! The nation concept is fundamental in political action! But the reality is prioritizing the ideology. I get it! The ideology is a way for the political parties to confirm and execute their ideas. But a country of such diversity, like Sudan, cannot be changed by one idea, no matter how eloquent it is. It won’t work no matter was the idea! Therefore, this contradiction and multitude of allegiances hinder us from creating a national project in which everyone finds themselves. Mahgoub said the same thing. He said that the Sudanese mentality is contaminated by vendetta. Exactly! What are these vendettas? In the 30s, Mahgoub wrote in Alfajr magazine that we had to rewrite Sudan&#39;s history. Since the 30s? Yes, it is a famous article. His article was titled ‘The Sense of Nationalism’, which he wrote in 1936 in Alfajr magazine. Mahgoub was a renowned Sudanese intellectual. But he was harmed by politics. He was lost to politics, he was the prime minister and the foreign affairs Minister and so on! Mahgoub thought that Sudan&#39;s political eras left vendettas and hatred between tribes. Which made an entire geographical-tribe group hate another because of one person! Mahgoub urged to rewrite history in a way that overlooks these historical vendettas. To progress and get over the Mahdist era conflicts between the west and north of Sudan, when there were massacres. We get over that! What happened in the Mahdist era? It is a vast topic! Very vast! It affected the political and social environment greatly! It is a vast topic and would require much time to explain. Can you explain it briefly? It is about the Mahdist state in 1881, when Mahdi declared his rebellion against the Turkish government. And he took it down in 1885. Until he died after the first six months of his reign over the new city. To leave it to his successor, from a different geographical ethnicity. Who ignited racial tensions. And subjected entire populations to the extreme form of political violence. Just because they opposed him! Besides the nature of Mahdist politics that lasted from 1885 to 1898, when the English and Egyptians returned to Sudan. And I’d like to negate the claim of Egypt colonizing Sudan! It didn’t happen before! What happened then? The case was that Egypt was a British colony! Aha! But wasn’t it a double ruling? This condominium was… Even Mahgoub&#39;s words you mentioned earlier. He wrote that Egypt was the sleeping partner! Which lacked actual authority! There was no single Egyptian appointed as general ruler from 1899 to 1956! They were always second class! So, claiming that Egypt colonized Sudan isn’t accurate. Egypt itself was colonized! And once Egypt got rid of the Khedivate regime, Its first decision was to grant Sudan self-rule liberty! So, saying that Egypt colonized Sudan isn’t… If that applied to Sudan, it means that Turkey did colonize Egypt! Isn’t it so? Because Khedivate is Turkish! These claims are common among people, but they are not accurate. Back to the Mahdist era, it is a vast topic to discuss. Because it was also created… it is still present to this day. It has a presence in the political sphere! Especially when it comes to the relationship between religion and state. It is highly present! Mahgoub said there were other ways to prioritize national allegiance over extremist allegiances. What are the examples of such solutions? Curriculums! To rewrite curriculums. -Educational curriculum!
-Yes! Rewriting these curriculums by mentioning national figures from all parts of Sudan. Regarding Mahgoub’s reading of the Mahdist Revolution. This Mahdist revolution could be represented by someone from East Sudan, like General Osman Digna. And a Mahdist figure from west Sudan, like the Mahdi’s vice, Abdullah Altai’ushi. And a Mahdist figure from north Sudan…like this! A nationalist curriculum in which all Sudanese find themselves. We will create a Sudanese mentality that overcomes the historical vendettas. With more insight into the diversity they belong to. This was Mahgoub’s idea. It is still called for now! That we should rewrite curriculums to recreate the collective national memory. So, you believe that curriculums are the sole essential solution! No, one of the solutions. Nations succeed by creating a political system. It starts with creating a political system. Then, how will we create a nationalist conscience? By arts, literature, and creativity! How to establish one collective memory? By curriculums, media, and so on! How to rebuild the Sudanese character? We create a punctual economic model for production that provides a new concept of work. But all of this relies on the political system and political stability. Without political stability, we can’t go anywhere! This long-term instability in Sudan. Is it attributed to the lack of proper management of political parties? In other words, the Sudanese will! Or is it schemed by the previous colonizer? Because Dr. Muhammad Othman Abdel-Malik said that Sudan&#39;s separation was planned before the independence. The Separation is a historical event now. It isn’t of much significance now! Sudan is in labor now, to put it accurately! All these events that hinder life and present the conflict as tense have positive effects too! Labor is a rebirth at the end of the day! All the screams and pain… must create something new! I think that we’re somewhat improved now. We gained more insight into our issues, especially among the youth. Nowadays, when discussing with the youth, you’ll find more sense of belonging to this geography than older people. Because they weren’t involved in the 70s conflict! They are liberated from it! They are less discerning of their ethnic and racial differences. Because they studied together in universities and visited each other! Also, the openness of the media that allowed them to get to know their culture. So, they are more cultured. But they are on their own without leading politics, so they can’t make changes! Is the youth percentage high? Yes, the largest population in Sudan is youth, 70%! Sudan is a young country! It has a large percentage of youth! So, in my belief, this labor… And this isn’t optimism or pessimism. It will lead to positive outcomes! We haven’t ever discussed the relationship between the military and politics as we do now! Never discussed! We watched quietly! So, we can say not to dismiss the military from politics! Instead, create a formula for its political involvement! What’s the harm? It is a new concept in our discussions! Our discussion is focused on falling behind because of marginalization! It is obvious now that even those who claim they were marginalized are doing the same thing to others! They are exposed! So, this discussion can be… If we create truthful, informative platforms to tackle this discussion and bring it closer to reality, the change will be positive! So, do you think there is light at the end of the tunnel? Naturally, there must be light at the end of the tunnel. It must be there even if it took us long to get to it! There must be light! This intellectual ability indicates a healthy nation. Nations are at risk when they fail to think! Let alone the efficiency of the thinking! One of the awareness forms is diagnosing the problem. It is a healthy sign, but it isn’t enough! We should expect more! I wasn&#39;t and will never be pessimistic in any shape or form about Sudan&#39;s future! On the contrary, I believe the current crisis is labor. It could last longer or cost much! But the higher the cost, the higher the positivity! How so? Because when you pay a high cost to get something, you will take good care of it. More cautious than if it was cheap! I don’t wish for a higher cost! Because this cost is economic collapse and souls! It is high! But I believe that if Sudanese were left to tackle their issues without interference, they would succeed! Do you think that more separations are the solution? No, not at all! In fact, I want the South back! Of course, I wish it would rejoin! It is a wish, after all. You can’t put people to choose whether to separate or stay with the one they have conflicts with. Of course, they will choose to separate. But it isn’t a solution anyway. On the contrary! It harms those separated in the south and the mother country! I don’t perceive the Southerner as a non-Sudanese person! I never feel that in day-to-day interactions! On the contrary, we have many things in common. Most importantly, the language he uses is the same language I use. We both communicate in Arabic. It is a sense of unity! We’re not talking about sentimental aspects. But we mustn’t devalue the sentiments of nations. It is a very important aspect! People aren’t inanimate objects! All nations have this sentimental aspect. If this sentimental aspect was utilized, it would lead to good things. In the December revolution, the youth who protested in front of the general council were cheering, “Darfur is the whole country!”. It is a great sentiment! But it should be properly invested to avoid another disaster like Darfur’s! Not in the east, west, north, or south! So, I believe that we will survive it. These are not dramatic claims! But it is a reality in the making due to the advanced awareness level! I would like to know what actually happened after the Separation of the South from the North! I believe they were connected, and there were relationships before that border! Is there a visa to access both the North and South? Do the people of the south travel to the north for their business? I believe some people lived in the South but worked in the North and vice versa! There are tribal borders between the north and south, until now. They are mostly shepherding groups. So, if you can ask a person for a visa to access the South, you won’t ask that from a cow, camel, or sheep! The cattle are used to the environment and don’t fathom borders. These border tribes didn&#39;t sense a change. The borders between the North and the South are not precisely defined now. But there is movement and access. If Southerners want to go to North Sudan, they take a permit from the consulate. But, practically, the relationship between the Northerners and Southerners is still… I understand the privacy of South Sudan. If I sit with one of the South, you would tell we weren’t from the same country. Coming from the point of view that distinguishes the color and features! As if Americans were all looking the same! It is a bit… But this relationship progresses depending on the political stability in both countries. But now we try to survive this labor while the South is under a huge political crisis. It is going to be good. I wish for a brighter future for Sudan and all Arab and Islamic countries. Amen! -May Allah grant you wellness!
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Transcript for:Sudan's Political Challenges and Historical Context: Key Points from Lecture by Ghassan Ali Othman

Transcript for:
Sudan's Political Challenges and Historical Context: Key Points from Lecture by Ghassan Ali Othman