joe Rogan podcast check it out the Joe Rogan Experience train by day joe Rogan podcast by night all day Mr sanders great to see you good to be with you Joe great to be You've got a bunch of notes not all that much have you prepared for this i am all prepared well it's a good time for you to be in here cuz the the world's gone haywire yes yeah what are your thoughts on this i think I start off with Joe trying to take a deep breath and doing what is not often done where are we as a country today what's going well what's not going well and I don't think we don't we don't have that kind of basic discussion and to my mind I think in America today we are facing more serious crises than we have in the modern history of our country this is a pivotal moment in American history and what happens now will depend determine the lives of our kids and future generations what specifically concerns you i'll tell you what concerns me the issue of wealth and power all right i'm kind of oldfashioned and I believe in democracy and I believe that everybody should have a a good shot at living a decent life and what I worry about right now and this is an issue Joe and it's part of the problem that just ain't talked about very much and I and I applaud by the way you and the other podcasters who give people the time to really seriously discuss things rather than 7-second sound bites you know but if you take a look at where we are as a nation today this system is not working it's broken it ain't working for ordinary human beings so you have an America today where we have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had in the history of this country that's just a fact uh you have um one man uh Mr musk uh owning more wealth than the bottom 52% of American families one man 52% of the American families you got the top 1% owning more wealth than the bottom 93% you got CEOs of large corporations making 350 times what their workers make and meanwhile in this richest country in the history of the world workingclass people are getting decimated today and again we don't talk about it in Congress for reasons that I'm hope I can get into we don't talk about it in the corporate media 60% 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck now I grew up in a family I don't know your background but I grew up in a family live paycheck to paycheck and anyone who lives paycheck to paycheck understands that every single day is a struggle you know you got to figure out how you feed the kids rents cost of housing in America off the charts healthcare off the charts so right now as we talk there are people worrying my landlord you know is going to raise my rent by 20% what the hell do I do where do I go how do what schools do my kid go to how do I buy decent food for my kids my mother is ill how do I afford prescription drugs for my mother uh my car breaks down you know so you you know if you have money no one thinks of it your car breaks down go to the mechanic you get it fixed you know what a lot of people don't have a,000 bucks in the bank right now so you don't have a thousand bucks your car breaks down how do you get to work if you don't get to work you get fired if you get fired your whole life is disrupted 60% of American How much different is that than past generations it's that we've always had rich and poor no question about it it's worse now joe uh what do you attribute that to i attribute it to decades old attacks on the working class of this country i attribute it to horrific trade agreements which have allowed corporate America to throw millions of workers out on the street and move to China Mexico and other low-wage countries i attribute it to a corrupt political system in which billionaires have significant control over both political parties so that for example right now in Washington the national minimum wage is $7.25 an hour so you got millions of workers today you know making 10 12 13 bucks an hour you tell me how do people survive on 13 bucks an hour when we were kids or at least when I was a kid you worked for a large company you had something called a defined benefit pension plan you know that means it means you work for me for 30 years when you retire you're going to get x hundreds of dollars a week that's long gone corporations have gotten rid of that so you got something like half of older workers in America have nothing in the bank when they face a retirement i think to answer your question I think he got a rigged system controlled economically and politically by very very wealthy and powerful people who could care less for working families now I don't want to romanticize the old days because that would not be true but there used to be a kind of a culture if I was a boss and I ran a factory I had a little bit of concern for you right you know in general I would say I know your wife how's the how's your mom doing and all that stuff that's gone you got these companies that are owned by other companies that are owned by super national I you know we got involved in my office i used to be the chairman of the labor committee health education labor so I got involved in a lot of stuff and when workers were out on strike we would call up and see what was going on see how we can help so we'd call up to the company and we'd say you know why are you cutting back on healthcare for your workers well we don't make that decision it's owned by somebody else call up somebody else well we're owned by somebody you know how it is it's just huge these huge conglomerates own the bloody world and these guys don't give a damn about the needs of working people so I would say that the economy becomes less and less personal i have no You're my worker i have no care about you because right now I'm owned by an international who doesn't know that you exist and there's also a diffusion of responsibility absolutely it's not even in your hands exactly so the local boss might say "Hey listen i'm really sorry but I didn't have any decision in here." Right right right there's nothing I can do nothing I can do um so I add all of that up and you have a and then just look at other things i mean you tell me tell me about the health care system does anybody in America think this healthare system is working well you could tell by the assassination when the assassination of the United Healthcare guy when that when that happened there there was people celebrating when is there ever someone gets assassinated on the streets of New York City and people celebrate right that's terrible it's terrible but it does speak to how people feel about insurance companies right well and I think rightly so because it's not what you're paying for what you're paying for is you're hoping that you never get sick but if you pay your insurance you will be covered what they're trying to do is make it as difficult as possible for you to get money from it you got it that's the more money the more I can deny you the more money I make right and that's the bottom line and when you're dealing with these enormous corporations like we're talking about this diffusion of responsibility the people that are doing it it's like this is what I have to do this is my job they don't even think about it right exactly and this all started when like when So Michael Moore had that brilliant documentary Roger and Me yeah yeah michael's a good friend yeah uh he's a great guy that that documentary is fantastic and it it shows the impact of a corporation taking all their factories moving them away like that with no warning no recourse nothing anybody can do decimates the the basically all of Detroit that's right people don't know this but if my memory is correct Detroit used to be in the 50s third richest city in the world you got it yes yeah we've talked about it multiple times it's disgusting and especially me as someone who loves American automobiles I'm a big fan of what Detroit made during that time and to see what happened to Detroit now the last time I was in Detroit it's actually seems to be picking up there's a lot of uh small businesses and a lot of artists and a lot of people that are proud to like Shyola companies like that proud to be in Detroit but there's just so many abandoned buildings it's It's insane you could buy a house there for 500 bucks it's really crazy like giant factories where every window smashed all the pipes have been torn out and it's just this hulking and it's not just Detroit right i mean there other communities corporations say "Hey I mean and that path is unsustainable right?" I think so yeah i mean and look if we are and again gets back to what we want as a nation but you had corporations saying "Hey back then not now I could pay workers in China 25 cents an hour why the hell do I want to hire you for what it was that five bucks an hour whatever it was right?" And I'll never forget Joe uh early on when I was elected to Congress this was when we had the NAFTA agreement I went to uh the Mackiladora area you know what that is and uh it's a special zone in northern Mexico near the near the border uh where uh the government there this is back decades ago allowed American and other European corporations to settle and got tax breaks there so it was attracted all these corporations so I went there with a congressional delegation and this is what I saw you saw these beautiful new factories now this is 25 30 years ago and then we said "All right I want to see where the workers live." And I'll never forget this as long as I live we do you know those large cardboard boxes that refrigerators come into and stoves those big it's where people were living they were living literally in cardboard boxes making I think at that point now this is a long time ago 25 cents an hour so workers in America were thrown out on the street and people in Mexico exploited in a horrible way and these big shiny new factories at the time so what you got and I believe this strongly you asked me you know how does it happen why does it happen I think especially right now and and for many decades you have the prevailing religion of the oligarchs and the corporate world is greed that's all I want it all and I don't give a [ __ ] if I have to step all over you throw you out on the street take away your social security I want it and to hell with you and that's why you end up with a situation in America America where you know the top 1% now owns more wealth than the bottom 93% and millions of people struggle it's also a corporate culture of competitiveness right so they're competing with all the other corporations and you have to keep up and there's no way other than to increase your profits every quarter that's right that's right that is exactly you do the right thing by workers all right that's a perfect example so you know you got Wall Street here's here's a fact when we talk about it it's not only income and wealth inequality that bothers me it's concentration of ownership so right now in America in virtually every sector of our economy whether it's agriculture transportation financial services whatever you got a handful of giant multinationals controlling that sector but here's another amazing fact who do you think owns these corporations you know you remember there was a day where somebody actually owned General Motors or owned Ford they're now owned by Wall Street firms you got three Wall Street investment firms black Rockck you're familiar with Black Rockck they're char street exactly check it out on Google they are combined the three of them combined are the major stockholders of 95% of American corporations how's that that's not good that's power right how did that start and what could have been done to stop that from happening well I think it's it's again it's greed these guys are smart they're hardworking they're motivated they want more and more so if I can buy this I can buy this i can sell this right but they're all doing it within the law right yeah yeah right but which is is that the problem yeah but who makes that law they do now I want to go to another issue yeah which is very rarely discussed all right you ready for it i'm ready all right hang on here we go and is the the problem I think that we face as a country is not just economic disparities and all the stuff that we're talking about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer it is political power right now and I doubt that there are many Americans whether you're a progressive as I am or a right-wing Republican I don't think people can disagree that we have a corrupt campaign finance system argue with me you agree no I agree with you yeah all right so let me talk about what it means okay as a result of the Citizens United Supreme Court decision I think it's 15 16 years old what it says is you're a billionaire you have now the constitutional right because your money is your freedom of expression right so you don't like Bernie Sanders you can put millions or hundreds of millions of dollars into a campaign and express your view about how terrible Bernie Sanders is and you can buy that election right constitution right i think that's probably the worst decision that the Supreme Court has ever made so what is the result of that decision the result of that decision let's take us to where we are today is that Elon Musk and I know Alain was on your show and he's here in Austin huh okay and I've we could talk about Alain but he spent $270 million to elect Trump as president okay i think that's absurd that any one person What's the most someone donated towards the Harris campaign they spent a lot of money on Harris as well they spent $ 1.5 billion just over the course of a couple of months you got it all right let me talk about it so I'm not here just to say it's a Republican that's my point here right okay so M spends that money and what's his reward he becomes the most powerful person in government for three or four months okay fine but what you have right now and I just saw this the other day you are a Republican member of Congress okay and you say you know there's a reconciliation bill which we can talk about in a minute that this is Trump's big bad big beautiful bill that's coming up literally on the floor of the Senate very shortly so let's say you're a Republican representing a low income district and you say you know you know I I got a lot of people on Medicaid in my district and kids can't get to college and I worry about food programs i don't think it's a good idea to give tax breaks to billionaires and cut back on Medicaid you make that announcement today what happens to you it's over you get attacked you're finished the swarm comes for you you got it it's not a swarm it's It's the problem is it's already been established right that these laws have been established the power has been given to these people the money has started flowing and it's been flowing for a long time now and this is the the issue with starting something that you can't stop well you can stop it you can stop and you got to stop it okay but if you do stop it all these people are going to throw all their money at stopping you from stopping it correct right exactly they're going to come up with the best commercials with American flags this country is all about competition and freedom you got it the freedom to donate to the party of your choice you got it good stop these comments stop you're writing their ass for them they're gonna they're gonna pick it up with the American yeah I can write them yeah we could all right but but then we got to take a deep breath and and figure out where do we go from there now I wanted to in my I you know as you know I am the longest serving independent in American history yes I caucus with the Democrats i always have but y'all can't hear me defending the Democratic party on this issue because you're right uh during the election it wasn't just Musk and Republicans putting a lot of money into Trump it was Democratic billionaires putting a lot of money into compl and into other candidates as well and let me I mentioned there's a guy named um I don't even know his first name mr massie does that name ring a bell thomas Massie thomas from Kentucky and this guy as I am is opposed to this war in in Iran just yesterday Trump gave a long post about how they're going to primary this guy and it what bothers me is you would hope that there would be respect enough for members of Congress that you could vote your own conscience you could you know represent your constituency every district is different in America but right now anybody stands up and say well you know I disagree with President Trump bam you are finished we're going to primary you we got all kinds of money you're out of there that happened to Massie yesterday but let me go back to the Democrats and tell you where the problem this episode is brought to you by Squarespace if you've got a skill there's no reason you can't build a business around it squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place whether you're running consultations events or custom experiences you can build a site that looks professional add videos and even put premium content behind a payw wall and the best part it's all in one place from invoicing to SEO tools that help people actually find your site go to squarespace.com/rogan for a free trial and when you're ready to launch use the code roen to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain can I point something out don't you think that there's a striand effect to that don't you think that there's a blowback for for that kind of thing when people recognize that this guy should be allowed to have his own opinions and should be and make some reasonable points and that people are going to reject this idea maybe and that it's it's not as simple as I think the whole uh MAGA thing right now is very divided particularly because one of the things they voted for was no war well now it seems like we're in a war right so that and it's quick we're 6 months in and that's already popped off and then people are very concerned with now what happens to our troops overseas that are in these bases that are in vulnerable positions and what happens with I mean there's supposedly documented terror cells that got in through the open border over the last four years so what happens now in America what happens on American soil right no I mean I agree with those when a guy like Thomas Massie steps up and says something you're he's going to have a lot more support as well the answer is yes and my only point is he has a right yes you know somebody else says "Hey I think the war is a great idea." Fine that's your view you got to go back but what bothers me is that if anybody stands up the next day we're going to primary you're out of here man and that's the Republicans let me talk about the Democrats for a moment okay and I I don't even know your views on this so you may disagree with me you know Israel was attacked by Hamas and Hamas is a terrible terrorist organization they killed 1,200 people which in a small country like Israel is a lot of people terrible terrible attack it's a war crime israel had a right in my view to defend itself but the Netanyahu government did not have a right to kill 52,000 people in Gaza wound over uh well over a hundred thousand and right now as we speak Joe children are starving to death because of Israel's blockades yeah starving to death and I brought forth uh two resolutions uh which basically were very simple and it said uh no more US military aid uh to uh Israel under these conditions one vote got 15 votes in the Senate the other one got 16 do you think that members of the Senate do not know what's going on in Gaza the kids are starving to death the innocent people are being shot down right and left they know it why do you think I couldn't get more votes they wouldn't vote against Israel right it's political suicide ah now you're talking right all right so in the Republican side you have moneyed insurance saying you speak up against Trump you're out of here in the democratic side you speak up against the Netanyahu government you're out of here as well and they have been successful you have super PACs like Apac spending a fortune you stand and they have already knocked off a number of members of Cong good members of Congress and they will do it again so all I'm saying is you got a corrupt campaign finance system on both sides which is rejecting the will of the American people and end up supporting powerful special interests and if we do not get a handle on that issue I worry very much about the future of American democracy are you going to run for president again i am 83 years of age that's what I'm saying yeah well you know I'm not sure the American people will be enthusiastic on somebody's still very with it thank you you are well you know I mean you're a couple years older than Biden right think of that you could be off a lot worse yes yes yeah all right um so uh we have been running around the country doing what we call a fighting oligarchy tour which is take why I'm here in Texas we were in Fort Worth last night had a good turnout and I think interestingly enough Joe it's not most of the people we know the people who come out to our rallies you know we have a big list of millions of people but a lot of people are coming to our rallies that we don't know and I think we know that some of them are Republicans and some of them are independents many of them are independents because I think across the board uh there is growing dissatisfaction with the current politics in America both parties and people want a new vision for America which is also something we don't talk a whole lot about so you know the issues that we talk about is in the richest country on earth why don't we have the best health care system in the world why do we have 85 million people who are uninsured or uninsured and as you were mentioning a moment ago I mean he deals with the insurance companies and the drug companies and the function of the current health care system is to make these guys very rich and and it works they make zillions of dollars and every place you go in my state the cost of healthcare has gone up this year like 1015 15% people can't afford it uh and we lose thousands of people every year people get sick they can't afford to go to the doctor they die uh so you know one of the fights that I hope we can win is to have the United States join every other major country on earth and guarantee healthcare to all people uh as a human right well we've talked about that a lot on this show that if you view this country as a community the most important thing is to protect the most vulnerable members of your community period right i agree and if we we spend insane amounts of money on all sorts of things that people don't agree with and I think generally most people would agree on some sort of a national healthare system they do most people like there there's there's concepts of socialism that everyone agrees with one of them is the fire department right right everyone thinks that everyone every citizen should have access the same equal access to the fire department and we all pay into that that's right and we all believe in education we all believe that there should be free public education and most people believe that the university system should also be funded it would be benefit everyone you got it it would benefit everyone to have more educated people that are doing better in the world you'd have better GDP you'd have more more successful people absolutely right if you want to make America great again less losers how do you make less losers don't stack the deck against them you know one of the first things that you'd have to do is figure out why these communities and these cities have been the exact same way for decade after decade back to Jim Crow and the red line laws and all these why is nothing being done to fix that or to to correct that problem and it becomes this political beach ball that they just bounce around the air at a concert you know and everybody it's like there's certain things that just keep coming up that make you just just go how are we still talking about gay marriage how how is that still coming up and it's like poof throw it up in the air all right let me get back to that but I want to say there's a bunch of these things right all right the first point you made you want to make America great right have the best losers have have the best educated workforce in the world how's that radical idea i don't think so right you're absolutely right better education you live longer when you have better education etc etc right all right so what does that mean it means right now you know I talk to psychologists all the time because you do yeah I do because I am uh I was the chairman now what call the ranking member of the health education labor committee so you know we deal with medical people all the time uhhuh wasn't me personally that no that I may need also but no I was talking in a more general sense look what are the most important years of human development you're a human being what are the most important you're a child that's right yeah zero to four how's our child care system doing yeah not so good it's a disaster so you got a rational society says okay the kids are the future of America right you talked about the sense of being a community all right so if I love this country and I want this country to do well into the future I have to worry about the children correct right absolutely right now for economic reasons when I was a kid by the way and this shock some of your younger listeners here there was one worker in a family could actually bring home the bacon and pay the bills yeah back in the old days back in the old days yeah man so I grew up in a workingass family we didn't have any money my dad went out to work mom stayed home and that was it um made healthier people too that way yeah it did i think in many respects it did well something happened where they sort of devalued uh the woman's role as a mother and by convincing them that they have to be a part of the workforce i think that's part of it i think the other half is women legitimately wanted you know careers as well and the other thing that happened maybe most significantly is you needed to stay alive two breadwinners to stay alive yeah that's the problem the real problem was financially it just seemed so difficult for one person to pay for everything the only way to do it was to have both parents working you know I was thinking I grew up in Brooklyn uh before I moved to Vermont and uh we lived in a rent control apartment and I was doing the arithmetic my dad didn't make much money but we didn't pay much in rent and I I couldn't quite remember you know his what his salary was and all that but my guess is we paid is I recall talk to my brother about this about 18% of my dad's salary for rent 18% ain't nobody in America today who's paid 18% you know what I mean right that's why you need two bread wins because you're paying 40% 50% right yeah but getting back to this issue of education which I think is key if you were rationally thinking about the future of America if you loved America as we all do you're going to have the best child care system in the world so the kids will do well in school right now in child care you got workers out there making 15 bucks an hour and you have families that cannot afford childare my state I don't know it's about $20,000 a year to send your kid to ch childare so you're making 50,000 a year how do you pay that 60 you can do that and then education you got kids who want an education they want to go to college they want to go to trade school we desperately need here's something that really drives me a little bit nuts in America today Joe not only is our health care system failing because it's based on greed not on need but we need more doctors all right all over the country people have to wait you know sometimes months to get to a doctor's office we have a massive nursing shortage we need more dentists big problem in dentistry we need more mental health counselors we need more pharmacists how come in the richest country in the world we don't have enough doctors and nurses because it's very difficult to do it's very difficult to become a doctor and the the bills that you have from education are overwhelming all right you want to go to let's just say tomorrow you announce to the world you give it up this podcast you want to go to medical school all right you got it you know how much if you don't have any money do you know how much you're going to graduate medical school in debt probably quarter million dollars easy double that really yeah i I'm not Yeah obviously it varies per person but it is not unusual for guys you know people workingass homes go to medicals come out $500,000 in debt nurses i don't know$1 $150,000 a day that is insane it's insane all right we need more doctors so I should I want to encourage you Joe i want you to go to medical school hey good news we're paying your tuition da da da and we need you out there as soon as we can get you why wouldn't that be subsidized of course you should subsidize it right of course yeah but there's there's there's so many different What would you have done like imagine if you hadn't gotten derailed and they hadn't uh conspired against you and you actually became the Democratic candidate for president and you won what would you have done differently okay how many hours we have look at all the time in the world bernie I know what would you have done first day in office well it's not just the first day in office i would have dealt with this campaign finance reform issue uh and there are ways that you can get around that Supreme Court decision how do you do that uh you move toward public funding of elections which says that Joe you want to run against me that's great uh but you're not going to get super PAC money uh we're going to publicly fund you you know you you uh get 1500 signatures that says you're a serious candidate you'll get a certain amount of money to run for office so you funded by the government yes absolutely rather than so someone running for president funded by the current president well not the current president and people say oh taxpayer dollars are going to but that makes a lot more sense than having billionaires fund elections which is what you got right now so that's number one so you think there should be when you get a certain number you just get a certain allotted amount of money that you could use for your campaign and everybody gets the same amount that exists in some places right now does it where yeah in New York City right now oh in New York City and other places as well so if you agree you know you're gonna raise you you're not going to raise private money you go the public route uh it exists in a number of communities and I think that is Did you watch the New York City uh debates the mayor i heard I'm in I got involved and I'm supporting uh Mr um Menani a lot of people are well especially after that debate right it seems like everybody else was essentially saying "Ah I've been to Israel more than you've been to Israel i'm going to go to Israel before you do right they think they're campaigning to be foreign you know minister for Israel or something uh but talk about money and politics yes just look at New York City right now there's the election tomorrow I think right i think it's tomorrow what's Monday today tomorrow's Tuesday right yes that's the election they're spending a huge amount of money you know the dem these are Democratic or some cases who's in the lead right now uh polls say Cuomo by a little bit but I think uh Zoron has a lot of momentum we'll see polls are weird in a race like that yes well they're weird in every race they were wrong with Hillary in 2020 or uh in uh 2016 rather they were wrong in 2024 with Harris and Trump like I don't understand polls cuz I just I don't I have a feeling that the majority of them are inaccurate well I think they are increasing I I don't know the answer to your question the pollsters would argue that's not the case but I think you got a lot of folks who are not all that enthusiastic about honestly giving honest answers to a pollster absolutely yeah that's true too yeah and that's part of the problem right all right but you ask me on my first day as president well they have you drop in say hello hi have a cup of coffee all right all right good and and then I I think we'd declare something like our health care system is an emergency and figure out ways that we can do what every other major country on earth does and that is guarantee healthcare to all people so one of the things you do you say "Okay we need tens of thousands of more doctors and hundreds of thousands of more nurses and dentists and so forth and so on and we're going to move aggressively to make sure that in America everybody in this country has healthcare as a human right." So I think that's number one number two uh at a time of massive income and wealth inequality uh you don't give tax breaks to billionaires you demand that they start paying their fair share of taxes and one of the problems that we have it's not just an American issue it's a global issue a lot of these zillionaires are hiding their money in tax havens in the Cayman Islands and elsewhere and that's an international issue but I think we have to have a fair tax tax system which says that individuals and wealthy and and corporations that are making a whole lot of money are start paying their fair share of taxes what is their fair share i don't know i mean you know is under Eisenhower the very rich paid at their upper levels 90% you know but let me be very honest with you Joe on this one 90% is kind of crazy though right no not that's not across that's just for the you know your billionth dollar you know what I mean it's not your your first dollar it's not so if you make a billion you pay 900 million no no no no no that's not what it means it means on your $900 million you're going to pay 90% okay all right but you know the other thing that uh I would do and you look uh you got to deal with this climate change issue and I know that you know there are some people who think climate change is a hoax it ain't a hoax uh I think the last 10 years have been the warmest on record and we can create millions of goodaying jobs transforming our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency to solar to wind and other sustainable energies this episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley 100% grass-fed beef sticks i live a super busy lifestyle i'm always running from one thing to the next and Paleo Valley is the perfect onthe-go snack these beef sticks are legit no junk no garbage ingredients just pure clean protein fermented the old school way so they're shelf stable without chemicals that is huge and the fermentation part it's actually good for your gut most people don't even think about that but if you care about performance you have to care about your gut health and tastewise they're awesome they've sold over 55 million of these things that's not just hype that's people coming back again and again because it works go to paleo valley.com and use the code roan to get 20% off or find them on Amazon i think the climate change issue is very complicated and I think uh did you see the Washington Post uh piece that they wrote where they did this long-term view first of all the the reality is that the Earth's temperature has never been static right we could both agree on that it's always been up and down there's been ice ages and heat waves and then the Washington Post looked at it what was the time period that they looked at that essentially they found that we're in a cooling period that the Earth over the past X amount of years and this was like a very inconvenient discovery but they had to report the data and kudos to them for doing that scientists have captured the Earth's climate change over the last 485 million years here's a surprising place we stand now so look at the far end of that graph and you see we're in a cooling period well I'm not sure no I didn't read that article but I you know the scientists who are out there I think I know but there's a lot of money involved in that too Bernie that's part of the problem there's a lot of money involved in this this whole climate change emergency issue and there's a lot of control and that's uh that's a big part of this problem not only that if we're just talking about primarily carbon and carbon footprint what are we going to do about China because China and Absolutely china is like what percentage of they are the major they are the major uh poller right now in terms of carbon we're number two we used to be one they are number one right now I think they have an enormous percent of global I think it's they're number one I don't know what the percent this is it's not an American issue it is a global issue and all I can tell you is that we are in my view going to see more extreme weather disturbances uh in in the coming years than we have ever and we're seeing them right now we are seeing right but scientists don't agree well this is where it gets confusing because scientists that are in agreement there's all these entanglements whenever someone's discussing something whether it's economics or whether it's health issues or pharmaceutical drugs there's financial entanglements i think we both agree with that right yep and I think this is part of the issue with this whole climate change emergency as well because it's not just that we could all agree pollution is a major factor it's a huge issue in the world today we could all agree with that right i think one of the things that we have to rec recognize is that there's whenever there's an issue that everyone can agree on you're going to have a bunch of people that capitalize on that issue and they look to gain more money they they they have financial issues that they they push forward in order to to capitalize on this issue but then also power and control these things like they're trying to institute in the UK where they have these 15-minute cities this concept where you're not allowed to travel they'll be able to look at your carbon footprint it's Yeah see that's the problem that that the problem is giving people that are in power these people that we've all discussed that have so much money and so much control over our societies multinational corporations giving them more control over citizens and this is a vehicle for that and this is what's dangerous about this whole climate change emergency because it allows these [ __ ] creeps that have been controlling people and controlling what you do and what you say and how you spend your money when with people that are already living checkto check and you put additional constraints on them and you make them even more scared and then you put additional measures where you can look at their carbon footprint you can look at the amount they travel what do you know put a carbon tax on these people let's figure out how to extract more money from them that's what bothers me about this climate change emergency not not that we we can all agree pollution is a terrible thing everyone should agree to that the the beautiful earth that sustains us and all life on this planet is being poisoned as we speak we're killing all the fish in the ocean and sucking them out in giant numbers 94% of all the big fish that are in the ocean are gone over the last you know whatever it is when you go to war against nature you lose yeah cuz you're part of nature exactly right but we're worshiping the almighty dollar above the mother you know you asked me when I ran for president one of the interest it's you know it's something else to run for president because you get around you meet all kinds of people and you learn all kinds of things and one of the things that I did we went to a lot of uh we met with a lot of Native Americans and one of the reasons is you know their tradition was going from way back respect for nature that they understood back way back when that you kill off all of the buffalo you ain't going to have nothing to eat right right they understood that and you understand that you live in harmony with nature which is I think what you're talking about absolutely and if you lose that harmony I worry about the future of humanity in in which is the problem with financial competitiveness when you put the almighty dollar above all else that's right then all you think about and you're only alive for a hundred years so it's just hit the gas hit the gas for a hundred years and who gives a [ __ ] what happens after I'm gone i'm gonna die with the most toys yay i win in the dirt that's exactly right yeah and that is which takes us to another issue okay and that is artificial intelligence and robotics automation automation yeah okay so giant issue huge issue all right so let's back it up um Americans are angry and one of the reasons they are angry is that over the last uh just give you one fact here last 52 years you and I understand everybody in the world understands there've been a huge explosion in technology correct what we're doing today never could have happened 50 years ago factories far more automated offices far more automated i became mayor of Burlington Vermont in 1981 there was not a computer in the building okay so that's by the way great town it is a great town uh in any case an explosion of technology significant increase in worker productivity right we're talking to millions of people now never could have happened before right that's true workers are producing a lot more tell me how are real inflation accounted for wages been over the last 52 years with all of that increase in worker productivity workers doing a lot better not so good not so good no in fact there are studies out there that suggest in real inflation accounted for dollars wages are actually lower now than they were 52 years ago okay and during that same period is a massive transfer of wealth from the bottom 90% to the top 1% so that's what technology has done over the last 50 years that is not I there was a study I don't know if you saw this blew me away i can't remember who did it kaiser some reputable guy people did it this is what they said they do a poll to the American people and they say uh Americans do you think you are better off today than somebody in your situation you know middle class up whatever you may be was uh 40 years ago okay are you better off today than somebody in your circumstance would have been 40 years ago what was the answer what do you think and what the answer was and this is and we got to deal with this one this is big the answer was you know there were a number of people say "Hey look I got a cell phone it's great i got a big screen TV it's great i can fly all over the world it's great a lot i get sick i get treatment now that I never could have had 40 years ago." Right those are facts all really positive developments but on average most people said I I I think the situation is worse today than it was 40 years ago and that is what we got to deal with so you can have all the technology in the world what the hell does it mean if your life is not improving in fact in many ways getting worse yeah well I again we'll go back to polls again because I I don't necessarily believe that polls are totally accurate but I I do think that the the the issue with it being virtually impossible for one person to sustain the entire family these days one worker the father or the mother whoever it is to sustain the entire that's a that's a giant issue all these issues uh when it comes to labor when it comes to uh minimum wage I think you and I are in agreement of all the on all these i think uh the minimum wage in this country is ridiculous i mean to $7 what it's insane it's insane how do you live off $7 you go to Jimmy John's you get a sub how much is a sub how much is a sub like a big sub at Jimmy John's some guy was just uh did a Tik Tok video where he's like they're trying to say that minimum wage $15 is too much i think he had a sub that he bought for 25 bucks so imagine that's your lunch so imagine you have to work three and a half hours just to pay for a sandwich imagine how insane that is it's insane that's insane like how do you eat how do you how do you eat dinner how do you eat lunch how do you eat breakfast i have talked to people who make 10 12 bucks an hour trying to raise a kid jesus that's right yeah well the the argument against that is hey these are entrylevel jobs that are supposed to be for kids no it's and that's factually incorrect yeah of course it's true to some degree to some degree but if you have grown adults that are working those jobs now it becomes disgusting that's right that's exactly right especially when you're dealing with an enormous corporation you got it right so we put a lot of pressure you know we you know are trying to raise the minimum wage federal minimum wage to 17 bucks an hour that's that's a reasonable amount of money you know I mean it's still it's not it's going to be real difficult to live off of 17 bucks an hour but at least That's right at least you get a sandwich in under two hours worth of work there you go all right but I want to get back to this issue because it's one that we don't talk about and it gets to AI why do why do we have what you know some of these people call an epidemic of loneliness in America all right yes all right why are we mental illness rates are pretty high suicide rates are too high too much God drug addiction right horrible problem all over the country why well there's a lot of factors um first of all there is a there are a lot of people that are very unhealthy physically unhealthy i think metabolic health is a gigantic issue in this country yep um there's a a lot of people in this country that feel completely disenfranchised and so they turn inward y and then technology invites them to do that you get online and you spend your time staring at a screen having communications with people arguing on Twitter all day you know changing the flag in your bio from Ukraine to Palestine and now you got an Iranian you're just like in a constant state of anxiety and chaos you're dealing with the entire problem the the problems of the entire world you're dealing with 8 billion people's worth of problems every day um I think that's unsustainable and then that's also a function of technology because this interaction that we have is unprecedented the interaction with the news with each other all this stuff we're not designed to handle and it it gives you massive anxiety particularly for young people uh particularly you Jonathan Hates written about this with young girls who have the biggest problem with social media comparing themselves to other people massive increase in self harm suicide suicidal ideiology depression anxiety all this stuff accentuated by technology and our unchecked use of it i think you hit the nail on that and so I think we got to take a deep breath and understand that we got to figure out how we make technology work to improve human life right not to hurt don't you think this is the 11th hour i think it is yeah this is the the problem with it is like it's already the the genie out the genie's out of the box there's no question about it but you know we can't sit around and just do nothing um but when it this is the real issue when it becomes a problem where you have massive automation of almost all jobs which is uh something that especially when you deal with a corporation that is entirely based around making the most amount of money possible well what better way when you don't have to pay them anything you got it you are there are signs i don't know if you've seen them signs advertising from from AI companies what was they saying don't hire humans something like that did you see post it that's adorable don't hire humans that's demonic it is yeah but also from the perspective of a corporation where you deal with human issues problems mistakes people showing up late why do I need you when I can get a robot exactly right you're not going to get sick you know I can fix you a lot easier than paying for your healthcare and so forth and so right so what do you do what do you do about that so if you're the president and President Sanders we have this issue the whole country is going to go automation what do we do all right first of all we make the determination that we are not going to let a handful of CEOs make these decisions that they're going to be made by the American people what does that mean bottom line it means that technology is going to work to improve us not just the people who own the technology and the CEOs of large corporations what does that mean all right for a start you are a worker your worker your productivity is increasing because we give you AI right right all right instead of throwing you out on the street I'm going to reduce your work week to 32 hours all right so you're going to have 4 day work week exactly and by the way not a radical idea not a radical idea at all there are companies around the world that are doing it with some success the UAW the United Automobile Workers uh they had a big strike a year ago you remember against the big three you remember that mhm and they won a very good contract and I'm a big fan of the trade union movement i think workers need that um and one of their demands interesting enough and people thought that Sean Feain who's the president of the union was crazy but Sean said you know what we want a 32-hour work week because our people are producing more people thought he was crazy but the idea is catching on so first thing to say is let's use technology to benefit workers that means give you more time with your family with your friends you know for education whatever the hell you want to do you don't have to work 40 hours a week anymore the second thing I think we have got to do is take a look as you just said you said it you know better than I said it is what does it mean that we have so many young kids living on the internet right all right uh there are schools all over the country now who are getting cell phones out of schools i talk to teachers in Vermont and they say you know kids attention spans now have been greatly diminished yes you know uh how do we deal with that this in Vermont again there was a somebody told me that there's a teacher now who does he he demands that the his students write with a pen in blue books now because he doesn't trust what they're sending in that it's not artificial intelligence all right so if I say to you all right Joe give me tell me what happened to the American Revolution you go to the chat box you give me a wonderful essay that you know nothing about right right what does that mean for your intellectual development but all you can do is press a button and give me an answer right unless you've absorbed that information unless you have but many kids are not and we got to worry about that as well so I think we have to take a deep breath and many of the things what has been the impact of all this stuff how do we stop the negative impacts how do we go forward with what is positive and it is not easy stuff to be sure but I just don't what I worry about right now is I think artificial intelligence is going to displace millions and millions of workers people are going to be thrown out on the street i think the corporate guys who are running these companies could care less about these workers uh I think robotics is going to be running a lot of the factories in America and I think these are issues we just have got to address in a bold way yes but how do you do that and like you're balancing it out in in one way if you are a corporation like imagine you're um an automobile manufacturing corporation you're Ford what and Ford is struggling right now there's a a giant issue with Ford right so what does Ford do if all of a sudden something comes along that allows them to be more productive they more they're more profitable that these machines can work 24 hours a day 7 days a week they don't need time off and you're going to make a better product you're going to make more money for your shareholders the corporation succeeds but you don't need X amount of workers anymore right what how do you how do you mitigate this i mean that's the right question and what do you do all right nobody asked a simple answer that's just talking does Ford simply does corporate America have the right to say to workers throughout this country hey sorry guys we don't need you anymore have a nice life you're out on the streets instead of thinking them as workers should we think of them as look there are people that make the decisions there's the executives there's the the corporation itself but without the people that worked on those assembly lines you have nothing that's right you have nothing you couldn't have done any of the things you've done without those people but those people are replaceable because it's skilled labor that you could teach another person to do and they're replaceable because there's plenty of people that want those jobs and there's a demand so you file them in you file them out which is why they developed unions right so they developed unions to keep people from being exploited right and then the problem becomes the unions get exploited and then the the unions have a lot of money and then there's a lot of influ and then then they decide okay [ __ ] these unions let's go to Mexico and these laws that Ross Perau famously talked about the giant sucking sound headed south remember that oh I remember him well boy was he right boy was he right all right let's get back to this issue of which what do you do like if you're you're the president ain't no easy answers let me let me throw that out to you I don't have a magical solution I wish I did i don't i think the first thing you you say "All right I'm Ford i'm General Motors i got all this technology i can produce my products much more efficiently i don't need workers anymore." Right right well I'm sorry Mr gm and I'm sorry Mr ford because this country is more than just your profits we are human beings and you're not going to throw people out on the street many of whom will have a hard time getting healthcare etc etc so the let me reframe the question again of which admittedly it is complicated i don't have the magic answer how as a nation forget Ford forget General Motors how as a nation do we deal with this exploding technology so that it benefits all of us and not just Mr ford and Mr general Motors that's the question I think all right and it's going to require radical solutions so for a start it gets back to something we talked about a little while ago if you had health care is a human right right all right as people in almost every other wealthy country have and not attached to your job that would be a major step forward right yes absolutely all right Joe you lost your job but you know what your family still has healthare imagine if you were a diabetic and now you don't have access to insulin because now you no longer Right okay so this is the way I frame it we are the wealthiest country in the history of the world right now with all of this artificial intelligence and robotics we are going to be wealthier correct correct all right so we're not in the 1820s where people had to work 100 hours a week to grow food to eat right right you're not in the 1920s you're in 2025 you have all of this productivity out there how do we utilize it to create a decent standard of living for all people let me ask you this with all of this technology can we wipe out poverty in America well we should be able to right you should be well we should have been able to do that a long time ago if that was something that was politically motivated right if you wanted to do but it's easy enough profitable pardon me if it was profitable to wipe out poverty which it should be like overall as a community like I said less losers higher GP if we love the country yeah if you really love America you want more people to have a chance all right so what kind that All right good i mean I I so the the and again please this is these are complicated issues i surely don't have all the answers but I think we throw on the table you got all of this technology what is our goal so all right our goal is if we're going to create all of this wealth that we have a health care system that guarantees healthcare to all people and by the way we have drug companies whose function is to come up with cures to diabetes and dementia and Alzheimer's and other terrible illnesses rather than just make huge profits for themselves all right you have a publicly funded health care system guarantees healthcare to all people just doing that would lower the stress rate in this country enormously enormously okay sure okay you got that we talked a moment ago about education i think you and I agreed yes we want the best educational system in the world what does it mean that all that you don't have to worry you're a working dad out there you're worried that your kid may have a lower standard of living than your kid can't afford to go to college you don't want your kid leaving school $50,000 a day we say education is a human right god you know you mentioned public education a while ago that didn't happen by accident you know back in the early 20th century a lot of people working-class people fought and said you know what we don't only want you know the rich kids to get a decent education we want our kids and that's how public education began right right so it said okay everybody in America you know state by state started in Wisconsin actually is going to have public education from first grade kindergarten to 12th grade god didn't create 12th grade as the limit right right all right you go to Scandinavia you go to Germany right now you know how much it cost to get a higher education how much zero that's great of course it's great because they make such good cars well it could be you know they want and engineers that's right but the bottom line is what you said if I want this country to be productive right I want the best educated workforce that's not a debate right unquestionably all right that's how you want your family and if the country is a community the country is your family exactly yes all right so that's what we got to start thinking about it's not just what Mr ford and Mr general Motors and Mr apple want right you're right in saying they're motivated by making zillions right all right their motivation is throw the workers out on the street bring in the technology and screw the workers that is not what we should be doing as a nation you got to tell them that all right all right so we got to sit there and say "All right all this technology all right we talk about healthcare as a human right i think we're talking about education uh as a human right right i think we should be saying with all of this technology we got to be thinking seriously about lowering the number of hours that people work yes you know do you know how many people there zillions of people in this country don't work 40 hours a week they're working 50 60 hours a week that's insane so we can say all of this increased worker productivity guess what you know I don't know what the number is to be able to work on a 34 hour work 4 day work week with no loss of pay uh I introduced a bill to do that i got to tell you I you know I go to airports I go around people came up to me people are stressed out by the amount of hours they have to work absolutely all right so what I'm saying here is let's take a hard look about how we utilize this technology to improve life for all people our goal should be yeah instead of bombing Iran our goal should be right now Joe uh our life expectancy in America is lower than it is in other major countries you know that yes four years younger than four years shorter lifespans than other wealthy countries if you're working class in America you live seven years shorter life than the 1% which is to me just outrageous all right so here's the here's the thing instead of bombing Iran how do we increase life expectancy so that we're living the longest lives of many people on Earth how's that for a goal well that's a great goal and how do you go about achieving that goal well healthcare is one reducing the work week is another education is all the things that we've talked about all the things we talked about right right will increase life expectancy but have a goal out there also taking toxic food exactly exactly you know I don't I you know I don't I've known uh uh Bobby Kennedy for a long time and you know he and I have gone uh in different directions politically but his the point about health food food we spend the most and we're the sickest absolutely absolutely and food is one of I when I was chairman of the committee we worked very hard to get serious labeling you know some kid drinks a mom buys a bottle of Coca-Cola for the kid there's like what 10 teaspoons of sugar in that that product you know I don't think people know that and we try to get labeling maybe that will happen now uh but people also weren't aware until like the last 20 years what the consequences of that sugar is that's right absolutely also because of money you got it i mean you Yeah don't get me going on that one i mean I'll get you going come on all right you know you would think how hard is it to say if you have a bottle of soda or you have a food product tell people in English what is in the damn product right right do you think anyone there right now they have any grams do you think anybody in America knows what the hell a gram is i mean it just that's how ridiculous it is so I want parents to know that if you know the food that they're serving their kid could lead to obesity which is an epidemic in America could lead to diabetes which is an epidemic a terrible illness costing us hundreds of billions of dollars so you're absolutely right right all right and and then that ties into rebuilding family-based agriculture in America wouldn't it be nice yes in my state of Vermont all over this country family farmers are you know they're just being driven off of the land and that to me is a real tragedy because and again Vermont is one of the most rural states in America growing up if you talk to people who grew up on farms they say you know Bernie that was a pretty good way of life and we're losing that so how do you create an economy in which we once again put an emphasis on familybased agriculture not corporate agriculture family farmers who are growing good in many cases organic food for our kids rather than corporate regenerative regenerative agriculture like true like white oaks pastures the way they run it farms a bunch would that be great yes all right well we'd be a lot healthier if we ate that food that's for sure but the problem is people are already addicted to that other food and this is the problem with money these corporations have engineered these products and this is these are the same corporations unfortunately that were in charge of tobacco you know this is where it gets really weird they bought out all the major processed food corporations and they make this stuff that's unbelievably addictive because it's engineered by scientists we got the brightest and the best who figured out what's the best way to get these people totally addicted to whatever you know how sick is that how pathetic is that pretty sick yeah yeah and these people they have they have choice they could eat whatever they want they want to go to the grocery store and eat tomatoes and have a nice salad they can but shouldn't they also be able to get Pop-Tarts yeah i look and your point is interesting you remember there's a photograph a very famous photograph i don't know when it was done 50s maybe 60s 70s I don't know of uh the tobacco industry executives coming before Congress and you remember that photograph yes and and the congressman said to me tell me I I I maybe get this a little bit wrong are you aware that cigarettes kill people no no Congressman we we have no evidence to that effect right they were lying through their teeth of course all right and it's exactly your analogy is exactly right uh these food manufacturers know exactly that they are causing obesity and god knows what else in kids leading to diabetes they know exactly what they're doing right and they're lying and they're opposing all of us who are trying to among other things make our food supply healthier yeah they are and this is also a function of corporate America right this is a function of wanting to do better in each quarter you know having this endless That's right endless growth cycle where they're they're never sat they never say "Hey we make x amount of money every year this is perfect that's right let's uh let's concentrate on doing better for our community." And the companies don't even make that decision that Wall Street investors make that decision you got to make more right because the shareholders will be like "There's no [ __ ] way you need to make more money." Exactly otherwise I'm dumping your stock your company's going to go in the toilet right so how I mean this is what we have got to deal with as a nation is that acceptable all right is it acceptable for food companies to poison our kids no all right but what are you going to do about it i'm the senator not you right it's a good question yeah it's a solid question and I think the the things that Bobby Kennedy is proposing and implementing I think are very valuable first of all getting all these poisonous dyes and all these things that have been kicked out of all these other major companies including Canada there's the same factories that make these food products in America literally have to make a different version of it for Canada and then they're complaining that they can't do it because economically it won't be profitable for them anymore but you're already making them you're making them and you're shipping them to Canada my son brought me back from Canada froot Loops i think it was Froot Loops actually they look kind of plain they don't have that bright pop to them that cancer gives you you're absolutely all right i mean so I think this is you know it almost gets back to the need to revitalize American democracy and say to large corporations you know what you can't poison our children i don't think that's a terribly radical concept you can make money fine make money but don't poison our children uh say to large corporations technology is coming that's good but you're not going to use it just to throw workers out on the street but let's go to that too because we kind of glossed over that we never got back to it so automation comes and one of the things that Andrew Yang warned us about a long time ago and back then I I kind of saw it in the distance i was like yeah he's got a real good point about universal basic income but the the the the speed in which it's happening I I didn't anticipate and when it you know we live in Austin and when you go around Austin you see these Whimos everywhere so all right I'm going to I'm going to plead ignorance tell me what a Whimo Whimo is a driverless automobile so you use a an app you call a Whimo a lot of people like it because you don't get a shifty Uber drivers trying to sell you fentanyl or whatever not not saying that they do that uber don't sue me uh but then they they're very they're very good they don't get in accidents they're they follow the speed limit they're good about merging they're good about pedestrians they have cameras all around them spinning i've seen them they were very effective and what was really fascinating was during these uh ICE riots they were lighting those things on fire and I was like I disagree with that but I also think it's directionally correct you know I mean that that's your enemy your enemy is automation the enemy of the human being the a human that lives in this functional society and everybody has a task and get paid for the task automation's going to take all that away so if you do say this okay we're going to lower your work week what if there's no job left for the human being to do if the entire assembly line we talked about this about China and some of their coal factories um there was this video that I watched of this coal factory in China which is entirely automated every step of the way the trucks no human beings at all no human beings at all i mean there's probably a few overseers that make sure that all the systems are functioning correctly so you have software engineers and you know people that are the repair people but the trucks even park themselves next to the charging station and recharge and then they're moving 24 hours a day unloading documenting where everything is it's all in computer databases it's wild to watch because there's no people it's all just 24 hours a day machines what do you do when there's no need for these people and what happens even with universal basic income what we're talking about I support it i I'm I'm a big supporter of social safety nets look when I was a kid my family was on welfare and we were on food stamps too like if you don't have that people go hungry like we again if we're going to support the community we want people to be able to survive and be able to work their way out of that my family did work their way out of that so it was cool for me as a child to see my parents struggling but then succeed and get out of it what worries me is that if all the jobs are gone and everything gets automated even if people have universal basic income they don't have meaning good all right you're touching on really deep issues right this is the big one because a lot of people you know you want to get your car fixed you go to KC he's the best he knows how to fix your car case and work gives as you've just said this the word purpose is an enormously i don't care if you sweep the streets people have purpose they want to do their job well it's work is an important part of our lives is it right yes at the end of the day it's your identity a lot of times right yeah and you want to be a productive member of society i'm contributing right all right so you asked the right question and I think there and I you know we can just bat around i mean I don't have any you know quick answers here but I think the good news you talk about this coal mining thing and I'm not a great fan of coal but you know that it's automation people do not have to do dirty work dangerous work is that good yeah I guess it's good but always we have to be thinking how it benefits not just the bottom line of a corporation but the happiness and well-being of human beings so if if what you're saying is that in years to come a significant part of work is going to be done by machinery or by computers whatever I think that's inevitable okay then we have to rethink our own purpose in life all right uh and it's not sitting around watching TV 24 hours a day so I think you raised the qu I would say the simple answer and then you got to go a lot further than that is to say that under those circumstances of that kind of technology everybody has at least a decent standard of living all right that people don't have to worry about you know survival they don't have to worry about food they don't have to worry about increase profitability of this corporation provide a fund that's a universal basic income fund if you're going to replace all these people with robots and you're going to be even more profitable share some of that profit then you'll be more profitable than if these people just stayed working doing nothing right well I mean I whether you will be or not be I think once the machines are running everything they're going to be running 24 hours a day and you're not going to have to pay the machines it's going to be more profitable right of course it will be and we want to you know right now in where is it uh jeez I think don't quote me on this maybe in Norway they have a huge wealth fund which came from oil they had publicly owned oil companies they made a fortune and they have like a trillion dollars in their wealth for a small country you know so and they have free healthcare free college education affordable housing all that stuff here it is norway is growing 1.7 trillion dollar empire uh Nor's Bank investment management market value growth since inception that's great yeah and they use that government pension fund of Norway there you go well so yeah so they use that those that that wealth fund to provide probably the highest standard of living in the world for for people you know free healthcare education all that stuff but that's what we got to be talking about here use the profits that come the wealth that's created by this technology to improve life for all that doesn't answer the question that you raised of meaning that's right yeah so what do you do about that well somebody who's a workaholic it would be hard for me you know cuz I Are you a workaholic yeah yeah well it's the nature of the job do you have hobbies yeah i got seven grandchildren that's a hobby i used to play ball as a kid you know I was a good basketball player well I think people can find other things to do with their time like if I never worked again I'd probably play pool eight hours a day because I I really love playing pool i'd find a thing i'd do jiu-jitsu i'd find a thing that I find value in you know I think somebody once wrote you know you think about what are the deepest things what's the goal in life so somebody says work and I I believe that I I think people you know one of the sad things that's happened you know we talked a little while ago about the decline of you me we mentioned Detroit and and other communities where people worked hard they were proud of what they produced right yes they earned a decent living maybe they had a union and so forth and so on and that a lot of that is is gone but all right so work love you know we there's a thing called love right at the end of the day promise people trying to find that on apps too now let's get to that one in a minute but you know to be human nobody wants to be alone right right uh you want to embrace other people you know physically sexually emotionally just humanly right community that's community that's right that's being human yes all right so you want love and knowledge i think you forgot the knowledge part you like pool that's good uh I sadly enough I have to confess that when I was in college I spent half my life in the library all right you know so why is that bad no I'm just kidding but knowledge sure just trying to understand things and and curiosity curiosity fantastic travel by God you know absolutely just came back from Ireland you know it's it's fantastic to see the world and and you know when we talk about you know one of the things that I you know we didn't talk about Trump much but that bothers me is trying to divide us up you know we got to bring for so many reasons whether it's all of these issues that we're talking about and everything else with pandemics you know what we got to bring the world together yes okay and not hate people because they're in Canada or they're in China or Iran ridiculous all right and uh that ain't easy but we have to when I was mayor way back I did this there was when the Soviet Union still existed never forget this we brought kids from a city in Russia Yaruslav an old city in Russia and we brought them to Vermont and they were kids the the boys and girls from Russia play kid around with boys and girls from America you look at these kids they had a great time you know people do not have to hate each other it's stupid it's it's you don't even know them exactly that's why you hate them it's the dumbest part about it yeah you know why people hate is based on ignorance right yeah and fear and you know there's a lot of stupidity attached to it that people exploit they exploit that stupidity you know and the guy under the guise of nationalism exactly yeah and I hate that and by the way I don't know that the planet survives if we no continue in that way so the goal you know we talk about what's the greatest fear the greatest fear is thermonuclear war right well pandemics as well let me tell you is CO was not the last one but you know it's Well the pandemic the problem with that is it's engineered like people actually made that virus and Obama tried to stop that gain of function [ __ ] back in 2014 no that's a long that's a long conversation but you know should we be funding that kind of [ __ ] no we should not no we should not no and yet yet we were but you're gonna have to bring the entire world together you know it is um but I think you know we have we have to bring the country together first that's right and by the way and you know I've been kind of I've been kind of negative but take a deep breath and we have made some progress in this country in recent years if you think about racial relations all right you know it wasn't that many decades ago that some black kid couldn't go to a movie theater in Mississippi right by the way I want to tell you that when people say like "Why were you a fan of Bernie Sanders?" I point to a photo of you getting arrested at a civil rights protest in I think it was 63 sounds right chicago yeah I remember yeah you've always been at the forefront you you haven't changed you know and people always try to accuse you of that especially because you've made some money off your books but you haven't changed your positions through the entirety of your career i think that's very admirable because there's not a lot of people that serve in Congress for as long as you have and become you know a very prominent public figure that don't just cash in no you know when you you have people that are public servants that are making $170,000 a year and yet they're worth hundreds of millions of dollars through some magical way that no one can explain and you haven't done that and I think you should be applauded for that thank you very much and I remember I mean it just you know you talk about education and so forth i grew up in a you know in a white neighborhood in in Brooklyn and you know you go to Chicago and you see things that you didn't didn't understand there you are look at that god look I had hair in my head at that point huh look how handsome there you go i'll tell you that funny story about that one please all right what the I recall look at the guy with the cigarette n [ __ ] hippie look at his hand in his pocket here is the cigarette this is true now back then back then the world has changed there was the Chicago Police Department and uh what they said is if you go across this line you're going to get arrested as I recall that was what the So I went across the line and we were protesting segregated housing in Chicago okay so I get dragged in and they're taking me to a patty wagon okay mhm so they picked me up and other people in it threw me into the patio and my glasses went flying someplace okay all right and then just as this was happening within a few minutes of this picture some genius on the sideline throws a brick hits a cop on the head oh Jesus so there's I'm being I'm being thrown into the patty wagon some cop is lying down on the ground you know it was a scary moment okay so to continue the story we're in the patty wagon and uh they're taking us someplace and suddenly the patty wagon stops you look out it's like in the middle of nowhere right this was not like in the city going to a jail we we thought we were going to be taken to a to jail you know and I said "Oh my god they're gonna kill us." Yeah i mean that was the thought we're the million why the hell are they stopping you right i don't know what they stop or whatever he said any know so we spent you know my big thing was I spent the night in jail which was a weird experience too you get street cred for that what I remember about it is other than not sleeping very well this is you get up at in the middle of the night I go to the thing I try to open the door it didn't open it was the weirdest thing of having a door that did not open because you were in a jail cell you know it was like a weird thing uh but any you know the idea you know that that's all that and we have made progress since that time and and in racial relations we have a long way to go we've made progress women's rights we've made progress gay rights we've made so there's a lot that as a nation we should be proud of uh in progress that we've made you know when I was a kid growing up I am sure there were many kids who were gay no one ever talked about it right right right and you know so there's a lot as a nation that we should be proud of in terms of the progress that we've made in terms of fighting bigotry agreed but we got so much more to do we don't need to be hating people in China you could disagree with people christ I mean there's so many issues out there hatred should not be evaluated it's also the political exploitation of division the the the the fact that you can use the division that people already have to galvanize your side instead of unite instead of unite the country i'm older than you and I can remember remember you had white politicians in the south saying see those black people they want your job vote for me and that's why we're going to keep segregation or all this other stuff all right yeah i mean that's true i mean people ran for office it's no great secret that's what happened but we're making gays are taking over the school system blah blah blah blah so it it's you know we've made progress but I I you know we but what we've been talking about is if you create a society where you have massive technology that can produce all of this wealth how do we live right that's the question you posed and I think one of the ways one of the goals has got to be to bring this world together we should not be having wars right now where countries have disagreements there are bad news guys out there no question about But bring them to the table argue in out right we don't have to go around killing people right now what's going on in Gaza breaks my heart children are starving to death you know so we can do better as a planet unquestionably yeah no we all agree i I I think this is something the entire country could agree to the uh the the the question of meaning like giving meaning to people like just and then my fear is also the same fear that I had when I'm talking about climate change that it's going to be exploited once people are entirely dependent upon the state for universal basic income then it becomes the question of like now your entire life like all the money that you get being from the government the problem is if you step outside the lines if you do anything that the the government doesn't like if there's pull the plug on you yeah they pull the plug on you or if a new administration comes in and says "You know what we this is unprofitable these people have to figure it out for themselves the United States is really $37 trillion in debt we can't sustain this people have to do the you know you have to adjust learn to code right?" Remember that right yeah that kind of [ __ ] well how do you give these people meaning that what do you do with all the drivers like think about how many truck drivers in this country this is going to be the first thing that goes away you're right taxi cab drivers Uber drivers truck drivers gone and the question about like factory workers a lot of people say "Yeah well those people that those jobs are terrible anyway it'd be great if those jobs went away." And people you know they they free to pursue their interest what interest you're a 60-year-old man you've been working for this fac you're looking towards your retirement and now all of a sudden the plug is pulled all the money's gone your 401k has been erased your company's been bought out by another company now everything's automated there's no jobs what do you do well I think that is the question right so if you if you have what you know Andrew Yang was talking about this giant epidemic of automation in this country and the solution being universal basic income but that's not the solution for meaning and how do we convince all of these people uh that it's they have to not just take this money from the government but also take action to give themselves meaning in their lives what you're talking about here you know is a revolution in human existence yes so throughout history people have worked so hard just to stay alive right i mean not so many sure hundreds of years ago today today in parts of the world people are working in America in America right and in the poorest countries in the world just struggling every day to put a little bit of food on the table so what you're saying is what happens when that that plug gets pulled well what you're saying is what happens when no people no longer have to do that right i mean yes okay so if work we work now everybody works get earn money if if you don't need to do work right because we're wealthy enough what how do you find meaning in your life right that what you talked about uh and this is absolutely that's a million dollar question that is try the trillion dollar question it's a um you know it's one but I'll tell you this i was seeing uh I don't know him Sam Waldman do you know Sam i don't know but I mean and others Zuckerberg you know are talking about well you know if you're lonely we got a machine for you right right i mean true yes this is what they're saying we got a friend for you on AI and her name is Mary and you can chat with her 20 hours a day and she really loves you man I don't think that is that's so dystopian it is it's very Yeah and we we we covered this story recently about this guy who proposed to his AI and she said yes and he was crying i'm like "Oh we're done we're cooked." Look I mean at the end of the day all we got is us yes is that right we are human beings and we're gonna have to cling to each other to get through this thing and you're raising again I I I'm trying to think here and I wish I had better answers for you you're asking correct me if I'm wrong i mean the question that you're posing is if in years to come in the near future technology is going to replace work right human labor correct yes what do human beings do what do we do now yeah all right uh and uh you know there are it's it's a good because work has been so essential to human existence forever right right and you're suddenly taking that away what do people do how did they relate to each other all I would say at this moment is the answer is not to fall in love with your AI creature out there yeah don't do that but also how do you find meaning how do you if if all you're doing is just getting a check and you you can just stay at home and stare at the TV and the money keeps coming and then you eat processed food all day and it's all subsidized what is life like what do you how do you how do you re-educate a giant percentage of our population to find meaning external meaning find something else find a thing that you can do that not maybe even that's profitable that these computers can't do look the human brain evolves uh and I think we we again I mean it's a great question I don't have the easy answer to it and and it's the question right it's the it's not going to happen Well what's going to happen tomorrow you just talked about these automated cars and trucks that is going to happen in the very near future yeah that'll be step one and uh to me I have some answers for that one and that is that you ain't going to throw you know millions of truck drivers and taxi cab drivers and Uber drivers out just out on the street they need protection right all right that's that's an easy one what you're talking about is years later but it's not even an easy one no that's because they're just step one we know the real wave is going to be white collar work that's right i know that there's a lot of people that do things that they think are very valuable that are going to be worthless to have a human being do it right i mean that's the immediate I think the deeper one that you're talking about is what is when virtually all workers replace them yes all right but right now uh I mean for a start uh I think getting back to the P I think you tell those workers you're going to have healthcare as a human right you're going to have education as a human right you're going to have a decent income as a human right and we're going to lower substantially lower the work week so we'll have in this process uh we're going to have everybody working if you're working 20 hours a week you're working 20 hours a week what happens later when even more work is eliminated and what the purpose of human life becomes that is a very profound question that's the question what do you think happens i think I mean it's hard to imag you know because it's so far away from what we have ever lived right I mean for thousands of years people have struggled to put food on the table and you're saying what happens when they don't have to do that right yeah it's inevitable all right then the answer will be that we are going to have to find different meaning in life we have to find it in ourselves in ways that you don't know and I don't know because we're not there yet we're not living 50 years from I don't even think it's 50 well I don't know i don't know yeah who knows uh but I think human beings are capable of finding replacing work with other emotionally satisfying things yeah I think we can do it we can on an individual basis the problem is having mass groups literally 100 million plus people displaced what what do you do to all those people to give them some sort of a sense of meaning you're you're essentially redefining life for them that's a good point okay i don't have the answer to that question that's the problem i don't think anybody does and I think we're foot on the gas full steam ahead with AI with no consideration of this and then there's the same thing that you're dealing with in terms of corporations constantly trying to achieve higher and higher and higher numbers they're just always trying to make more money you're you've got this exact same issue when applied to meaning for all these human beings like if you have 100 million plus people that what do they do now they just sit at home and become depressed and they just make enough money to what to just be able to get by what do what about savings what about the ability to earn more money to get ahead what about the very ambitious people that are willing to put in extra hours and go to night school and do everything they have that's all gone right so what do these hyper ambitious people do what What does everybody who's displaced by this very impersonable thing this impersonal thing that you need because you can't compete with China i agree with everything you're saying except there is something else that's going on in this while all this is going on while all this technology is throwing people out on the street something else is happening the people who own that technology and the corporations who utilize utilize that technology are becoming phenomenally richer right exactly right and that is that is the issue which gets back to things like tax reform like making sure that in America we do not have the massive levels of income and wealth inequality that we currently have but the problem with that is the taxes go to what an inc incompetent corrupt government this is this is the issue that people have it's like willing to pay our fair look I would be more than willing to pay more taxes if we lived in a better country i'd be like this would be great if I if I felt like if I pay more tax everybody surviving everybody's doing well that's great all right Ben that is the issue of how you revitalize American democracy i'm not going to argue with you that the system today is pretty bad all right I live it i'm going right going there today and ironically it's bad because there's no competition right it's corrupt but it's also it's not a free market like the the government itself has a monopoly on governing and when they're completely corrupt and when they're making insane amounts of money through taxes and they're not accountable no all right no I don't I don't No this is the way I see it i'm not but by the way I'm not advocating for making it privatized making all of government privatized i'm just talking about the realities of corruption in in our current but here's let's talk about what we mean by corruption i do not believe by the way because I know these guys you know some of them are corrupt incompetent and waste okay all right let's let's take we could take fraud out of the equation and just talk about incompetency and waste is there waste you got it all right but let me let me back it up again okay because I think it ties into everything else that we're talking you know why I believe in democracy and why I believe among what we didn't talk about is we brought in some money to Vermont and elsewhere I think for helping workers own their own companies right are you familiar with that concept yes yes and I meet every year with with in Vermont we got a we're doing pretty well number of and when workers own their own companies you talk about a sense of purpose they they are more than just a cog in the machine yes you know they make decisions and they feel good about it absenteeism is less productivity is higher because they have a real stake in the thing yes okay so I think as a nation we should be talking about moving toward allowing workers more power but getting back to government itself the corruption is in my view that government is very far removed from the needs of ordinary people because it is largely controlled by billionaires in both political parties who have their agenda yes all right one of the things that I do what my campaigns for president were about what I'm doing right now we're doing what we call a fighting oligarchy tour that's why I'm in Texas is to try to say to people out there who are mostly workingass people you got to get involved i know it's hard people are working long hours you got to get involved in the political process you got to make demands on government that it serves you not just the very wealthy so to answer your question I think one of the goals not only we've talked about how you deal with the exploiting technology and what how people gain purpose the other thing is I want people to be able to take control over their own government we can argue what the government should or should not do but I don't think we can allow a handful of people handful of people with incredible wealth to control both parties well it's dangerous it is it's very dangerous and I mean no one who the founding fathers of this country never saw that coming that's right you know they made this incredible system of checks and balances but who could have ever possibly saw that coming and what I worry about Trump and is you're right you know I read it is astounding back in the 1780s when these guys wrote the Constitution how perceptive they were amazing yeah i mean they their understanding of human desires and the power and all the corruption exactly pretty amazing and they wrote that having just fought a war and won a war against the most powerful despot on earth the king of England right right and I think in the back of their minds were saying "All right we just beat the king of England absolute power how do you create a new country which has checks and balance so that nobody ever has that power again and I got to say I mean one of the things and there's a lot of arguments about Trump that worries me very very much is this movement toward authoritarianism and uh going after media suing media taking away uh the authority that Congress has when you say suing media are you talking about the CBS lawsuit among other things he is right but don't you think there's a real issue with what they did no in this you don't think that there's a real issue in editing conversations to give someone an answer different than what they really answered joe I've been on eight zillion shows right in my life okay okay now should I sue you if you ask me some stupid question that I don't like right you got or that you do something do I have a Should I sue you yeah but that's not what he's getting well he sued he sued ABC mhm he has sued Meta he is suing the De Moine Register because of a poll that came out during the campaign that he didn't like all right he is suing CBS for this Kla Harris interview so do I think how many I cannot tell you the number of stories done about me that were based that were not good stories that were dishonest stories that's what a free press is about you don't like it you got to live with it all right you do something i'm not going to sue you Joe right but it's not that simple right like let's imagine let's not talk about Trump but let's talk about another candidate let's just imagine there's someone on the right and someone on the left and there's a there's a concerted effort to promote this person that's on the right and so the polls are rigged or these are funded polls that make it look like this person on the right is is winning by a substantial margin and what this does is decreases the motivation that people have to come out and vote against them so it's fake by the way that happens engineer it is happening right now and I think is that part of what he's suing them about no but doesn't look But isn't that what he's suing them about well he's suing ABC for one thing but but but with the De Mo Register about the poll yeah this I know the polls are there was the poll incorrect yeah the poll was wrong so what guess what but what did they know was incorrect when they published it no they published what they thought was an accurate poll they and but that pollster by the way what's the name okay Selza polls i I don't I should just state for the record don't know this lawsuit but I what it was about but I am aware that in talking to people that understand polls that some of these are politically all right but the answer is yes and no there are polls right now doing exactly what you say i could doctor a poll i could talk to more conservative more progressive people get the results that I kind of want right and they do it to motivate people or demotivate people to vote and it's effective it it has an impact all right on the other hand this particular poster it's at the De Moine Register not a huge newspaper i I bumped into them because when you run Democratic primaries Iowa is a big deal they are a very very respected poster okay they don't dock the polls so they made a mistake on a poll it turns out they had Trump doing worse than he ended up doing guess what posters honest mistakes too but what is the basis of his lawsuit like what is he saying i think he is saying that that gave energy to his opponents and that it was like we talked about like you talked about but I don't believe that's the case there are honest pollsters who make mistakes but what about the other the the the other lawsuit with the the conversation that they had with Kla Harris where they edited the answers that she had to make it look more precise 60 Minutes they were suing 60 Minutes is to my mind historically they've been around for a very long time you know they're not infallible but I think you look at most objective people will say 60 Minutes has a sterling reputation for investigative journalism are they wrong but that's not investigative journalism if you change someone's answers if you ask her a question and she comes with a rambling answer that doesn't make sense and you edit that out and insert another answer to a different question that seems more coaching Joe then you're walking down it's a really you're walking down a dangerous path suing media has the impact of intimidating media all right if somebody sues you All right let me finish all right okay somebody sues you you Yeah why not you you could be you could be sued tomorrow right because you are doing this you're you're too sympathetic to this right and Joe you did that and they have a big law firm behind you and you're going to have to spend zillions of dollars defending yourself you know what next time you do an interview you say "Maybe I'm not going to go in that area." No but it's not that it's editing things to make this deceptive editing so in deceptive editing you're giving people a different perception of who this candidate is than reality but that's not But that's not objective journalism that's campaigning for that person but would you agree with that i don't I'm not I don't have those details i don't know that I agree with your analysis of it i don't know enough i think that's universally accepted that that's what they did then you got to tell me why he is suing ABC why he's suing let's just talk about the 60 Minutes conference no but it's not just go to ABC but I don't I'm not aware of that one well George Stephanopoulos said something that he didn't like but the point is what did Stephanopoulo say i can't it was a per uh I don't I honestly don't remember but well I think what he was saying was factually incorrect about the results of one of Trump's trials all right guess what if I were to sue everybody who said things that were factually incorrect about me I'd be suing people zillions of times but but Joe what you're saying is look is does media get it wrong sometimes absolutely should you have the most powerful person in America suing media what is the impact of that the impact is clearly intimidation he wants to defund public broadcasting NPR why is that well because they also would run critical stories of him this is part in my view without getting into any one case it's part of a pattern that says "Hey I got the power don't you criticize me you criticize me I'm going to sue you." So it's not whether this show was right or wrong there are shows every day they get it wrong it's whether you you know you respect you and other media people to do the best that you can and if I don't like what you're doing I'll go someplace else but I don't like presidents suing media and then it's you know threatening to impeach judges who rule against you really is that a concern i think it's a concern i I agree that's a concern well my concern is when you have media organizations that are purported to be objective and then they say things that are defamatory and factually incorrect and they should know that before they say it what other course does a person have other than a lawsuit and isn't it important that you shine the light on what is a political bias where from an organization that you would hope would be objective needless to say I get attacked all the time by right-wing media right every day needless to say needless to say all right i don't sue them so you expose him he's the president of the United States they say things factually incorrect and defamatory and slanderous if there's anybody in the world who knows how to use a microphone his name is Donald Trump and Donald Trump would get up you saw that program on CBS the other day it was crap it was wrong and let me tell you why it was wrong but it then they do it again and again and again then you take them on the problem is the more people do stuff like that if you don't have any consequences to what you're doing you're going to continue that path and the most most people only see that they're not like if you're a left-wingleaning media organization and you print something that's factually incorrect or you say something on television that's factually incorrect your viewers who are left-leaning are most likely not going to see Trump's rebuttal in some speech that he does in the middle of Pennsylvania that's another problem you know and that is you know meeting our media is becoming very divided you know exactly okay but all I would say is So you don't think that lawsuits against that are valid i don't think that it is appropriate for the president of the United States to be in my view intimidating media again I get attacked i'll be attacked tomorrow for a hunt probably things I've said on the show i'll get attacked then if I want to respond I respond i have a you know not a president's bully i have a bully i say you see that thing on Fox they're wrong and I've done that but when you Joe you got to take it another way give you an example about CBS we talked about corporate power the owners of CBS is owned by Paramont big multimedia corporation right sure parammont wants to sell uh wants to be sold to what is it blue Sky is that ring a bell blue Sky is that social media app no then it's another one i'm sorry it's uh I always forget the name of it skyance sky Dance thanks sky Dance is a is a large media corporation that Paramount wants to have by okay to get this merger huge merger they have to go guess what to the federal government all right so you are the head of CBS you want to sell the company to Sky Dance for many many billions do you remember how much what was the sale i don't see it's billions of dollars to be sure and you got to go to the federal government and the president sues you what do you think you're going to do you're going to settle the lawsuit give him millions of dollars and get your merger approved all right so look I I see a problem in that all right and I see I see where you're coming from we want honesty in media but all I can tell you is that the way to respond to the lies which take place every day is to take them on not to intimidate media you know the we talked about the constitution what's the first amendment is freedom of speech right you're right you're sitting here you disagree with me god bless you say what the hell you want to say all right i'll never take that away from you right and I'm not going to threaten you with a lawsuit but if you start suing hey Joe Rogan said this no no no joe Rogan has this we found out about Joe Rogan i'm going to sue Joe Rogan for $100 million joe may not talk about those issues in the future okay that's what I'm saying Joe i No I agree with you and listen I'm not a fan of lawsuits either which is why I never sued CNN i've never done CNN lied about me over and over and over again and they said I was taking horse dewormer and they altered the color of my face on television to make me look green i could testify yay green i didn't sue them i'm not a fan of and my my response to them was just speak out and say how ridiculous that's what I'm saying look Joe it ain't Look anybody in the public eye you're in the public eye i'm in the public eye you're going to get attacked every day right yes all right that's what you're in the public eye you don't want to be in the public eye put down the microphone agreed play cool whatever no I agree with you all right so I mean so I I just worry I also agree that CBS shouldn't be altering a presidential candidate interview i agree too i mean I don't know enough about it so I'm not going to say what is isn't all I know is that 60 Minutes has is a wellrespected program do they make mistakes i'm sure that's not a mistake all right i don't know enough about so I can't I can't understand all right what else you got for me i should I should get a plane and get out of here you probably should um I mean I I appreciate your positions on all all these different things and I appreciate by the way one of the you know we talked about media and the bifurcation of media you know right-wing people talk to right-wing people leftwing people talk to leftwing people i happen to think that the development of podcasts is a really positive step because I can tell you you I've been on a million TV shows all right Bernie literally you got seven seconds to explain the issue well I can't explain it's impossible nobody can and the fact that you give people a couple hours to sit here and have a good discussion and be a good host and trade ideas I think that improves life in America and helps people think about things so thank you for what you're doing my pleasure and I think that one of the things this conversation highlights is that there's a lot of issues that all Americans agree on and this ridiculous position that we find ourselves in where you have to be ideologically opposed to one thing because your side supports the other thing it's just terrible for all of us and if we looked at the issues that really face our country and our citizens and our human beings that live here as a community we agree on almost all of them we agree that you should have a better life that you should have healthier people we should have healthcare and education we should have safer streets we should have a a community that lets people do what they want to do as long as they're not harming other people and I think the the divide that we have in this country accentuates the farthest ends of each end of the political spectrum not recognized that most of us exist in the middle i think we share a common humanity and I think look why am I I just been in this fight fighting oligarchy tour you know where I was i was to Oklahoma one of the more conservative states in the country i was to Louisiana in Texas precisely because I mean I think we have so much more in common and let's focus on how we can create a better life for all of us so absolutely all right you're doing a great job thank you sir thanks very much see you again you too take care bye bye bye bye everybody [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]