addressing every single controversial topic around the brand new House of David show from Amazon Prime's involvement he introduced me to Amazon and I was skeptical I remember the first conversation I was like to David being depicted as a bastard child to the overt violence in the show something that has a lot of people I guess concerned or they're talking is opening scene David is running towards Goliath Goliath I think throws a spear at him and it actually makes contact hits him and then David falls down I traveled from San Diego California to Dallas Texas to sit down with my friend Dallas Jenkins John Irwin it's true that David getting hit by a spear is not in the Bible but is it contrary to biblical truth people are wondering like are you guys doing this to get people to start talking to get people you know chattering on the internet like yeah like you guys poking intentionally in Christian Media music and film it's been generally familyfriendly and I'm watching this show it was like I'm watching three 100 at times like it is violent Bruce La you guys ready well after that intro I'm not sure that's more let's do it let's I've wanted to talk about these things for a long time so this is great here we are the internets are talking okay the the first three episodes are out mhm a lot of conversation a lot of controversy yes right I want to get into all of that after they've watched the show which is why a good title for this is an after show an after show hopefully they've all seen the show I've seen the show I I love it great job uh let's start with the with the macro M A lot of people are skeptical of big organizations skeptical of Hollywood skeptical of conglomerates and they see Christian Media the chosen as well as House of David and Amazon yeah and they go who oh big big big amazon bad are they going to control the stories are they going to get into the details they going to censor stuff are we going to water down the the heaviness or some of the truth claims um what do you guys make of all that and and how how was it connecting with Amazon and what is it like working with a big company like that well we're watching The House of David but Dallas should answer first that way he gets in trouble I'm kidding but but uh because he introduced me to Amazon and I was skeptical I remember the first conversation I was like I don't know cuz he was like I think they get it I think they really get it and I think they're willing to give us the keys to the car and I'm like that's impossible Dallas I don't and then we went in together and so Amazon started with you yeah so the chosen was crowdfunded and so we had total creative control and that was part of the the attraction for a lot of viewers was I can I'm getting to know Dallas I trust that he's going to protect this content and we know that if if Hollywood gets their hands on it they're going to ruin it that's the cliche and uh a couple seasons in uh Amazon was one of the streamers that pursued us and said we'd love to put it on our platform and in those conversations I was saying just so you know not only is it essential for me as the filmm maker to have total control of this content more so than other projects I might do because it's biblical content but it's also essential for the audience they will stop trusting me if they smell that I'm being influenced by money by uh by by the corporate by sponsorships by Rules by by the Twitter verse anything and so it's it's just a non-negotiable so we can make these conversation short if you if you need to have a traditional deal and they said why would we want to mess with what's happening it's working so we just want a platform that's and Elevate this content and so that's when I went to John because we've been talking for a while about doing projects together and and he's been developing uh with the Wonder project which is the production company behind this behind House of David talk about doing some of this stuff and I said uh he was raising money outside and I said I really think Amazon wants to get involved and I think they're willing to crack the code of giving you finances but letting you control it and he again he was like that's not that's never been done that's not possible I was you know you know when like in Anchor Man he's like I don't believe you that was literally my first reaction but there's a woman at Amazon Prime named Tracy Blackwell who when she was hired one of her conditions was let me get the chosen let me get some of this biblical storytelling and one of the beautiful things about Amazon just as a company in total is uh I think this is objectively factual they're the most custom customer knowledgeable company in the history of the world they know more about more people and what they want and what they will be willing to buy than any company in history and they're not stupid they're like we have people buying Bibles we have people buying faith faith content why would we want to not serve them and they're the most customer service friendly organization in the world and so that's the backdrop of we had to be convinced ourselves that they're really genuinely going to let us control the content while they bring to the table what we can't do which is a huge platform and marketing and some of these things that we're not capable of so the chosen as as you know um is now uh in an exclusive window on prime before it comes free to The Chosen app and House of David is now on Prime video because we said going into these meetings it must it's it's it's an absolute necessity that uh the content not be messed with and they're not only they're not only okay with it they're they're proud of it they celebrate it they it's part of it's a value add to the audience and if you think about what Amazon represents what I tell people is like the gospel originally went out on the Roman Road right and um Christians did not build roads Rome did they did not build them for the gospel they build them for military expansion but they were there and that was the path the gospel went out on entertainment is America's second largest export um behind Agriculture and if a community with any type of content whether it's you know comic book fans or whatever or or Christians if they make a lot of noise around a piece of content it really creates fomo and and the content goes all over the globe and so if you think about just what Amazon represents and why it's so important to take to take these distribution mechanisms um uh and use them you know uh House of David you know in in one day went to nearly 250 million people uh subscribers and I I don't know how many will watch but that's who went to in over 25 languages and so the only reason that that's happening is just our audience has been so loud as a community and so undeniable that now people like uh Prime are saying okay we're going to give you the keys to the car and that was a non-negotiable element and uh and and not only did we get it they wanted us to have it so John you said you were skeptical you said you were skeptical you sounded more skeptical I was more skeptical yeah what was said to you by Amazon Prime to convince you that they were not going to tamper with House of David yeah so I actually read it was cool I I love the thinking behind things I love to read and uh so I read the the the core principles of Amazon the first of which is customer Obsession and then another one is thinking big and so I went in and said like you know what and we actually played into it we had a meeting and I said like Dallas said that you know and I'm like I was I was skeptical but then I read some of these principles and and we were able to say to them if customer obsession is really your your the the the the whole unifying concept of Amazon is a is a is a company that focuses on customer Obsession not obsessed with the competitor and and how can you serve the customer and create a great experience which I I felt like that was a values match because for me what I've always said is it is not about us it is about the people in the seats and the experience they're having with the screen large or small that's it it's about serving them I think this is a service industry ENT I'm about serving God or I serve God by serving people you can do both right anyway uh and so and so that's that's the idea and so we're able to say to them like hey if customer obsession is really your goal there's a whole bunch of us that you're not obsessing over and we don't feel seen and and we feel underserved and they they gravitated to that and so it was a Val it was about I love I've learned to kind of find people that value what you value and work with them and they we valued the same thing well and they so they promised it and then it's contracted it's in the paperwork youer so I mean it's it's you know obviously we're not dumb enough nor would they expect us to be to just base it on a good meeting um you know we all have lawyers we all have it takes months to put these deals together and we start with what's non-negotiable and they they happily agreed to it but the other thing that is interesting about it is Tracy is a great example of this um and then Vernon her boss had a television one of the one of the best people I've ever worked with Mike Hopkins had of all of Amazon Prime Jen every body there is they're just a one they're wonderful people and um not not all of them but some of them but it's a trend in the studio system in LA right now there is just an uprising on behalf of Christianity within the industry and a lot of people that have been Christians or people of Faith you know the whole time but kind of silent and willing to be silent really are kind of saying no more I have to match my values with my craft wow and that is like this this Landslide Trend and all these people and it's like the more it happens the more it happens kind of thing you know it's it's uh it's so it's really cool to watch and that is also happening within Amazon and other places yeah it's similar to when you know someone comes out with a story about someone else and other people come to the you know that that's that's a bad example or a bad version of it when someone's accusing someone of something and then all of a sudden 20 people say me too me too right this is another version of that where uh as more people are more confident in sharing their faith or being uh willing to do faith-based content others come out of it I mean when I'm walking through a studio uh like when I did The Best Christmas Pageant Ever which was with Lian gate um you know people would come up to me and go hey I love the Chosen and keep up the great work or someone would work on the marketing team at Amazon or whatever and they would say like I'm so excited to work on this content because I share the values of this of this content so you you see that a lot more that you'd be surprised I remember after I can only imagine and we got in business with Lion's gate and um um John fimer the C CEO there's great Michael Burns is the chairman and wonderful mentor and friend and and uh calls himself a bad Catholic but he's he's a he's got he's got a a faith and and uh and is committed to it but I remember when I first met with them at Li escape and uh and we had a meeting we're doing the deal and I walked out there was the head of one of the Departments and very skittish over in the corner kind of waved me over and Whispering was like I just want you to know like I'm a Christian and there's a few of us here we in the basement on Tuesday morning and you know it was very much like that and I literally was like I think you could I came in the front door they're paying me to be here we're doing I think you can speak up about it and and that has just been happening over the last 5 years in in a way that's pretty fundamental that's really encouraging to hear okay so episode one yeah opening scene you're seeing the development of David and specifically the David and Goliath scene yeah and I think anyone who's watching is like wow this is amazingly done whoever you guys cast it I don't remember the gentleman's name the gentleman that plays Goliath Martin's amazing oh my goodness Martin yeah Martin Ford he's in the he's in the uh bodybuilder he's in the Mortal Kombat films wonderful guyred not actually 10 feet tall I was wondering how you guys did that but effects so something that has a lot of people I guess concerned where they're talking is opening scene David is running towards goli Goliath I think throws a spear at him and it actually makes contact it hits him and then David falls down now I'm watching this and I'm going oh is this like an alternate version of the story had David lost right and and you guys kind of creating that tension or they saying that David it's possible within the realm of the story that David could have actually taken some damage prior to hitting Goliath it's a great yeah and by the way all this stuff is so um cuz I feel like what we do is like a love letter to the source material and uh and the whole conversation I remember as soon as the trailer came out uh and there was like reaction videos and there was like thousands of comments and I literally called Dallas people saying like is this going to be after and and I'm like what have I got myself into and he's like now you know what I've been dealing with I me like the movie about Noah that wasn't there some there's some it's legitimate so with that in particular um you know we wanted to start out with with a hook and a cliffhanger um and without spoiling it David's speech in front of Goliath is um is is incredible and we deliver it word for word in the episode that that uh and Michael is amazing with it Michael the that plays David but not in episode but not in episode one we wanted to hold it and so the speech just so if anybody's listen you knowbody like he didn't give his speech he does it's word for word and uh and it's amazing um with him getting knocked down and the way it plays out I don't want to give away the end but sometimes you think about film as a as a language um it is its own language it's a visual language it's an emotional language and so you're trying to communicate ideas visually and one of the things that became thematic for me was this word rise and rising up into your destiny stepping beyond your fear um and then rising up into your destiny so I felt the best way to portray that was was to knock him down and then see him rise back up as Samuel appears so anyway that you'll get to it in the episode but we come back to that moment and the way it's the way it's it ties in to the whole story we're telling in the end is very emotional to me and the the theme that I'm trying to get into is that is this imagery of of I wanted imagery of David rising up and uh and and getting back up and then running at Goliath um which is how we tie it in so I won't say how we tie it in exactly but it's it's it's really really cool and uh and and the the the the method of the pilot is for you to say wait that's not how it happened like what happened and that Intrigue is what we want because we want to start that conversation and and then when we come back to the moment it's it I feel it really delivers well my question is so it's true that David getting hit by a spear is not in the Bible but is it contrary to biblical truth is this is this a theological issue that's going to cause people to believe something wrong about God it's it's it's not directly from scripture but it's not unscriptural it's not like he's saying something that we need to be warned against or it's false teaching it's not and it's also not impossible that it's true like it could have happened yeah you know I mean the Bible doesn't say he ran towards Goliath and did not get nicked by anything yeah no it doesn't say but it's not it's not impossible yeah so okay having said that you've caught backlash in the chosen for extra extra extra biblical narrative and backstory and as a creative I understand that you got a character development and and and create tension and all that sort of stuff but with a scene like that or with some of the scenes on the chosen I think people are wondering like are you guys doing this to get people to start talking to get people you know chattering on the internet like yeah like you guys poking intentionally like oh this is going to be a great hook to like it's like a good YouTube thumbnail right I can I just be honest um or is it purely creative and artistic we I wrote the first episode of House of David there's a scene later on where uh you know with the handprint in the um when Jonathan puts his hand in the handprint and this town is attacked by um you know by Giants that was the original open hook of the show and as we tested it with audiences they were just very the Dynamics of Israel are very difficult to understand like there was the time of of of prophets siners Saul was the first of the Kings you know it's a it's a theocracy so ultimately God's in charge you know and uh and then a lot of people assumed that this boy they were seeing was was uh was David they didn't make the assumption that the show House of David was actually David and Goliath and so I just they just lacked a grounding yeah they lacked they were disoriented a little bit I'm a huge believer in serving the audience and so we test and so there was some legitimate confusion okay and so then the answer to that was actually moving the David and Goliath moment from uh another episode and and putting an open hook and when we did that it just like all the puzzle pieces fell into place the audience needed to feel oriented and they needed to understand the world so no we didn't you're not trolling uh not trolling at all but I haven't thought of that maybe we should do you troll I don't I've never thought of that I I I am the law I'm not as good with all Moses stuff and this this season it's become controversial that Jesus prays for Judas uh which I didn't know was a controversial topic that Jesus would pray for his enemies yeah um but uh they'll often say Dallas is doing this just because he wants to get a reaction I have never once ever ever ever ever done anything in my show to avoid criticism or gain praise or poke the bear ever I serve God I serve the text I serve the story when I'm sitting on my laptop uh in my in my living room writing this uh and with my co-writers it's hard enough to write a show that people want to watch it's hard enough to write a show that's even at all good it's hard enough to try to be faithful to the character and intentions of Jesus in the gospels to add another layer of that of how can I manipulate the audience to get to start talking on YouTube I don't have the brain capacity for it and I also don't think it's good art I think I think the artists throughout history that have done things too provoke are usually unsustainable they they they might be successful for an album or two but they're not rooted on a solid foundation the artists that last the artists that have something to say over a sustainable amount of time run out of crazy things to to to uh poke the bear with and eventually the audience goes what okay you you you got us shocked this time what more can you do and they reach a limit so I I've never ever ever once done that for that purpose and this is an important distinction too because I found a lot of times you know I think authenticity is really really important um in content whether it's music or or or movie movies or television shows and I feel like a lot of times in the conversations that I've been in trying to trying to represent our our audience and Christianity inside the industry and a lot of great people there's a question like what do you think the audience wants what do you think the audience wants you know what we are the audience you know and so one distinction that I think and know in Dallas for for for years and we talk about the that we are we are legitimate nerds for the material and uh and there's a legitimate excitement when he's telling me what he's doing in Seasons The Chosen and I'm like this is what I'm doing like we we are legitimate fans like we are part of this audience and so at the end of the day I think and for other content creators out there I think J.J Abram said like you kind of got to trust that if something is Meaningful and inspirational and entertaining for you that it's going to be for other people that there's more of you out there so a big part of is it's just like we are making the shows that we want to watch with our families and and that's kind of as simple as it is and and uh so there'd be no purpose to to try to troll yeah yeah that you're like well I'm messing with the thing that I I want to see myself don't know the internet well enough to do that but but uh but but but but I can tell you that we're just we're making the coolest content that we can that's accurate to the book that we love um and uh and we're having a great time doing it as a member of the audience and uh and it's just kind of as simple as that it's more fun to see you troll like I'll do something in my in in the show and then you'll talk about it in the thumbnails like this is shocking this is you are the king of the ambiguous look like we're going to need you guys to shoot some of those thumbnails for so some of the other I I guess controversial Parts is you said the show me and my family want to watch right in Christian Media music and film it's been generally familyfriendly right clean safe the Trope of the soccer mom van wanting something safe enough but not too edgy to play in the car and I'm watching this show and that it feels like I'm watching 300 at times like it is violent yeah and I like it I was about to say what did you think what is what oh I love it I'm like you know yeah like and and I think the chosen had elements where it was dark and I'm like woo like this is spooky done like I mean the opening of of episode one is is uh you know a woman who's got blood on her hands and she's screaming or she and we've got swords going through someone's gut as well a little bit more uh you don't have the Bronze Age band yeah yeah we don't have what you're dealing with brutal so there was some violent stuff there but this is like and I don't know if you know this the crucifixion which is coming I don't know how you going pull that off it's quite uh quite violent is going to emotionally Wreck All of Us yeah you know but it's going to be it's gonna it has to be violent but but yeah you're I didn't mean to yeah so I was just saying like the only time we've ever seen anything like this in is in a crucifixion scene in the passion right which some may argue is like a bit much is like kind of gory but this is almost on that level of intensity with how violent and and bloody parts are you were people are going to be like but I thought I could watch this my four and 5-year-old you know and they can't and so is it okay and what would your kind of response be to like hey Christian Media is supposed to be familyfriendly and you're giving us this kind of what is it rate 14 it's t 14 my answer to that question is basically I set out to make the and everybody's different yeah and I'm not like the model of like writing a book on parenting uh in fact most of the time I feel like I sh this this line from Jerry McGuire he says you see this jacket you want it I don't need it cuz I'm clo and failure that's how I feel as a dad especially trying to get my kids aware of the Bible at all um but I wanted to make a show that I could that I could watch with my whole family and that hopefully my whole family would enjoy now my youngest is eight um my oldest is 16 and then it's 14 and 11 in the middle and so it's hard to make anything that everyone enjoys so I wanted to make the show visceral enough to be authentic cuz it was an authentically brutal time but I also wanted it to make safe enough for my my whole family so if you wonder you think the first episode is for your 8-year-old yeah I would I mean yeah he he was I mean I mean we play Halo together and he's like let's go you know so I speak let me speak as a good parent your kids are older though right my kids are older yeah I I think yeah I mean it's every family is different yeah I think there are some some families who wouldn't be comfortable with their 8-year-old and you're like and you go through I've got a a really good therapist that your son's going to need or whatever but yeah but but you wouldn't show you have a 10-year-old I got a 10-year-old so we're watching Boba Fett and Mandalorian he can't watch it without me he's correct horrified but he'll watch it with me so I would show my 10-year-old house I'm actually going to try my four-year-old no absolutely she yeah four I would not yeah but but again uh Logan is my is my 8-year-old and and I feel that I would watch this with him um but I am the parent that gets in trouble constantly I remember I took Kate to Jurassic world when she was sick and I'm like we're coming home cuz there was like a cartoon movie as well and we're going to the theater and I have standards man and it was it was a poorly reviewed and I'm like I'm not Jurassic world looks cool it's dinosaurs it's educational so we go watch it and she's like a thrill seeker anyway and we're driving home and I'm like just let me let me frame this with Mom okay let's just introduce this concept gradually immediately she's like Dad took me to Jurassic world and I was terrified and I'm like oh my gosh my Jurassic World was I showed my he was eight or nine at the time the Last Dance unedited version of the Michael Jordan with my wife in the house as Jordan is dropping F bombs and I was like oh you forget that yeah you forget it cuz and I thought it was the she TV rated but it but it was not you forget about the F bombs in Top Gun too and in free guy and then they start quoting those movies in front of your parents which makes you feel like having said that and the F bombs in episode four of House of David they're yeah but they're original langage so uh so but my point is like every time you watch House of David again I'm a fan first and foremost and I'm and what I tell people is I'm only one viewer but I am the first viewer and and I hold that kind of uh uh sacred and um I'm making the show for my family and I will never put anything in the show that I would not show my entire family and and uh and I will tame the material to that standard and that's what people need to know now every family's different but that is that is how I'm making the show yeah one of the parts and this happens to me all the time watching the CH and I see something and I go is that in the Bible and then I go and surely enough the most controversial parts for me are I always find them in the Bible and that's what happened with House of David Samuel walking through he's frustrated he sees the king of the amalekites and he he brutally kills this guy and I was like wait Samuel's a prophet he's this holy man of God and sure enough I see it and then I go to 1 Samuel 15 and there it is it's worse the actual language was like he act him into pieces acted him into pieces I was watching it going oh cool he had Samuel kill the king that's pretty cool I like this guy and my wife's like uh that's in the Bible and I'm like oh yeah I've been I've been sorry I've been focused on the gospels for the last seven years of my life but I was like yeah it's the same thing I've had people we did in uh season 4 uh Mary of Bethany lazarus's sister washing Jesus's feet with her hair and people are going why did you it it's supposed to be the impure woman who blah blah blah how could you ruin this scene I'm like just check out just go back and read it yeah just check it cuz there's two accounts you know and uh and so that that's that's sometimes the more satisfying thing if there if there's a moment when I enjoy poking the bear it's when you do something that people go why would you do it that way I'm like because that's at least you're sticking to the Bible yeah exactly do you like apples this is in the Bible I like them apples like fun it's just fun to but but yeah there were there were moments in in the House of David when I was watching it going I forg got that that is yeah that and it and it always um you mentioned earlier that you like some of the Intrigue that sometimes people have I'm not sure I would put it in the way you did where it's like on purpose I want to cause people to say that's not in the bible let me go check I would say on purpose I want people to go to the Bible anyway just to check everything I love the fact that I'm hearing from people who open their Bibles while they're watching the show all right guys we're going to take this conversation and go a little deeper over at the Wonder project YouTube channel so if you want to continue with us check this out over here all right I'll see you over there peace