e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e thank you please be quot a session 22117 the Commonwealth versus Karen Reed council could you come to sidebar please e e e e e e e e e we can bring the jurors in jurors please um that number again that you cited Miss McGloin 3 3.4a thank you for you are unmuted you are muted you are unmuted court all right the jury hear ye hear ye hear ye all persons have anything to do before The Honorable first Justice Beverly kenon now sitting in the denam superior court within for the county of norfor draw near give your attendance you shall be heard God save the to Commonwealth and this good Court thank you may be seated morning morning 22117 the Commonwealth versus Karen Reed all right good morning again Council good morning Miss Reed good morning jurors we appreciate you being ready um and willing to go forward we did spend a little time this morning with the lawyers moving things forward so our time was well spent we appreciate your patience um I have to ask you those three questions were you all able to follow the instructions and refra from discussing this case with anyone yes everyone said yes and nodded affirmatively did you also follow the instruction and refrain from doing any independent research or investigation into this case everyone said yes so nodded affirmatively did anyone happen to see hear or read anything about this case since we left yesterday everyone said no or shook all right thank you may we have Miss Nagel please make sure you watch Step the to give the court and jury in the case down here to the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you yes okay thank you Mr L yes SE morning M good morning just a few questions for you um in regard to the interview with the conversation that you had with Trooper Proctor uh were there any other Troopers present during the course of that conversation yes recall who that Trooper was um I can't recall his name [Music] no now if I could turn your attention back to January 29th in the early morning when you were leaving the house on Fair um you indicated that you saw a dark object uh in an area of the front lawn is that correct yes now you had been to the house of 34 th youw on several different occasions prior to this day correct yes you ever been over in that area of that front lawn was that an area that was used that you observed by the homeowners or anyone there um not really no and what anything do you recall about the lighting in that particular area of the yard um I mean it was dark out but with the snow was kind of you could see a little bit of a glare you call any sort of street lights or anything like that in that area [Music] um I can't recall [Music] no now you see this object which you described as approximately 5 to 6 ft long is that right yes correct correct and um in the area of the flag pole is that correct yes and at the time that you saw it were you expecting or anticipating something over in that area of the yard no and when you were driving past it is that the first time that you saw it yes now if you had realized or had recognized that dark object uh 5 to six ft long in that area near the flag pole uh had you realized that with a body what would you have done um I'll allow it I would have you know called 911 um if I thought I thought it was an actual body and told everybody else in the car as well and your testimony again was that you put sort of two and two together the following day correct [Music] yes I have nothing further okay so if you realize it was a body you would have called 911 correct yes and that's because you would have realized that was very important information correct ja I'll allow it I'm sorry can you repeat the question if you realized it was a body you would have realized that was very important information correct yes and your testimony today is that you realize realiz it was a body the very next day correct the next day after I had a conversation yes you didn't call 911 at that point correct I did not know did you call the police business line I did not know did you speak to any police no right and you would agree with me Miss Nagel that object became 5 to 6 ft long yesterday for the first time jaction not ask the question differently miss the first time you've mentioned to anybody that that object was 5 to 6 feet long was yesterday to this jury 2 and A2 years after you supposedly saw it correct yes nothing further okay all right Miss Nagel you are all set thank you very much thank you next witness Please Mr L yes sure on the call the call Miss Terry to the stand while she's coming in can I see Council just about this witness for a second please to next witness testifies I just want to tell you that sometimes we call witnesses out of order sometimes Witnesses have to be called in a certain time frame because of their schedules or some other instance and um the lawyers were kind enough to work this out among themselves so we appreciate it all right you s with the ersy of the court and juring the case down here the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you than do than you all right Mr L whenever you're ready thank you morning man morning could you uh please state your name and spell your last name it's Terry it's t e r i KU n and M what is it um what do you do for work I work for UC Davis at the veterinary genetics lab in the forensics unit and uh what is your your job title there uh my job title is forensic scientist DNA technical lead uh my UC classification is SRA 4 and that UC classification as far as Sr 4 what does that mean oh staff research associate and uh how long have you worked there almost 25 years now and if I could I'd like to talk a little bit about your educational background um starting with uh undergraduate where did you go and what of any degree did you receive so I went to Sacramento State or California state of University Sacramento I received a minor in chemistry and a biological science degree in molecular biology and following receiving those degrees where did you go education with you I went to UC Davis and I received a master of science degree in forensic science DNA and was that prior to you uh joining the lab there or or what if any relationship to that and I actually started my my job at the lab after my undergraduate degree in 1999 and I started my postgraduate degree I believe in 2009 and finished in 2011 so I was actually already working at the lab at that time now with regard to the forensic program at UC Davis what if any role did you have in in sort of the creation of of that lab I was actually one of the people who helped established our forensics program in our lab and I currently help um with all the training and any future forensic scientists that we employ I do their training as well now have you uh been invited to speak at any sort of conferences or things of that nature in regard to your work in foric science yes I've spoken at the California Association of criminalists the American Academy of forensic Sciences uh the Northwestern forensic sciences and Rural Livestock in the western states now have you been published in this particular area yes I've published seven times most of them in forensic science International genetics and when it comes to those Publications are you familiar with a process called peer R yes and can you explain to the jury uh sort of what that process entails and and how that implicates things that are published so anytime we go to publish uh we put out an article to whatever publication we would like to uh and it goes through a peer review process which that article is sent out to peers in our industry and they review our work to see that it is solid and if they approve it then the article does get published now over the course of your years with the lab at UC Davis uh how many forensic samples of DNA have you tested oh in the thousands now if you could uh describe to the jury um the the type of work that your lab perform so we have two sides of our lab uh we have a service side which provides diagnostic testing parent verification uh testing and then we have our forensic side uh we do animal apparent verification as well we also do match comparison which we compare samples to see if they're coming from the same source and we do species identification now what kind of of cases do you typically see like in the lab uh we can do anything from homicides to helping people remains are their Lost Pet to provide closure for them and what are the sort of different types of agencies that you've done work for over the years of your work of La we've worked for police agencies Humane agencies animal control agencies and even private individuals anybody who believes they can use our services and the lab that you work for UC Davis is that lab accredited yes it is it's accredited oh sorry sorry answer my next question as far as the lab accreditation can you explain to the jury sort of what that process is and what what's entailed in accreditation so our lab is accredited by a group called aab and that's the American national standards Institute ACC national accreditation uh they accredit labs to ensure that the policies and the procedures that we're following they set a standard for those and they come and check our standards are we meeting those standards uh and it's also the same standards that most crime labs are associated with now in reference to to that um Labs that do DNA testing uh specifically and only in regard to humans uh the accreditation that your lab has versus the accreditation that those types of labs have what if any difference is there between um there's no difference the accreditation is the same now if you could explain to the jury uh what what is what exactly is DNA so DNA is the blueprint of your life um it's what makes your eye color what it is it's makes your hair color how tall you're going to be uh and you get one half of that from your mom and one half from your dad and where is DNA found uh so DNA is found in most cells uh it's in the nucleus of the cell you get one copy of DNA per cell uh there's also another Cen DNA called mitochondrial DNA and in a cell that is found in the plasma of a cell and there'll be thousands of copies of mitochondrial and if you could explain sort of the difference between mitochondrial DNA versus uh what would you classify the other type of DNA so nuclear DNA is again that individual type of DNA it's the DNA where we could say that that's you or that's a particular animal and it would be a statistic of you know 1 in 3,000 um or 1 in 350 million type thing mitochondrial DNA actually runs along the maternal line so if you know you're a mom and you have a couple kids and a grandma there they would all all share the same maternal type and how is DNA used in forensic science for what we do in forensic science for animal DNA we use it for parent verification uh we use it for determining if two samples come from the same source and we use it for species identification and is DNA testing uh just generally accepted in the scientific Community yes it is and can you explain for the jury sort of DNA typing um that process how do how does that work what is sort of specifically that you're do uh so the main steps are when we get um a sample we need to lice open those cells that DNA is in the center of the cell those mitochondria are there but they're protected by a cell wall so our first step is to lice that cell wall and release the DNA uh once that is done we want to see how much DNA that we have and so we have something called qpcr or quantitive PCR that allows us to tell how much of that nuclear DNA is in a sample uh from there we would go to a DNA typing um as you can imagine if you only have one copy of DNA in a Cell it would take a lot of cells to be able to visualize that DNA uh so we have to go through a process of making multiple copies we use uh something called pointers uh it tells us what parts of the DNA that we're looking for that can vary from species to species or from test to test of what we're trying to do uh and we amplify that in a process process called PCR and that can be kind of you could think of it like a photocopier every time it goes through a cycle it makes a copy so if we start off with one copy we get two from two we get four four we get eight and by the end of this cycling we have millions of copies that actually allow us to be able to visualize that DNA and then the last step is actually visualizing it uh the DNA actually has to run through a matrix uh it's kind of like a sponge with all the little holes small pieces of DNA out first and we can see those first and the larger pieces of DNA come out last so it's allowing us to both see the DNA and it separates it by size and did you do um the forensic testing uh with regard to samples that were submitted to your lab in this case yes I did and as far as those steps that you just described are those the steps that you followed in regard to this case yes they were and do you have uh sort of standard procedures for what you do in the lab yes we have standard procedures or Sops that we follow for all of our work that we do so fair to say in this case you follow those same sort of standard procedures and protocol yes I did now what have any efforts have taken in in your lab to uh preserve the evidence or prevent uh contamination uh so what we do to PR preserve evidence prevent contamination one of the things we use is a bleach product so anytime we're using a surface uh be it for sample collection doing PCR doing the extraction uh we're wiping down everything with this bleach product doing our work and then wiping it down again uh samples are stored according to what we have so dry evidence is stored in a locked cabinet um wet evidence such as blood is stored in a in a fridge uh tissue is stored in a locked freezer uh the fridge is also locked as well uh so they're under and they're also kept in their original packaging and they're sealed and they're only unsealed and used when they're actually manipulated for uh sample collection and what samples did you receive in this case in this case we received two swabs and um may just a moment yes you're close may I approach the witness yes [Music] I'm showing you a series of seven photographs I just asked you to look at those andou okay and just in general terms you recognize what's depict in those seven photographs yes this is the evidence that we received and those photographs that you would have taken as you were unpackaging samples in this case yes and they actually they contain a sticker on there that has our case number the date we received it and my initials may I apprach again your yes iome to introduce and admit as an next okay no thank you you thank you I okay thank you may I return these to the witness and with the court commission publish them to the jury yes M uh now placing before you what I placed before you been marked as exhibit 7480 with regard to the first uh exhibit that you have before you uh what's up on the screen is that what you have before you as exhib 74 yes it is can you describe to the jury what we're looking at in this particular photograph so this is the evidence that we received um we want to the little sticker on the bottom is the one that we applied at our lab um it includes oura the case number the date and my initials and we do this to ensure that so that we can show that this is how the evidence arrived it arrived in a sealed and packaged Manner and uh the following exhibit number 75 that's essentially another the same packaging is that correct so it's the same packaging but it's the back of the packaging because in this instance that actually shows where the evidence was sealed as well and the date as well and who if anyone or What entity did you receive this uh this package from uh can I look at my notes I don't recall the exact entity yes you can thank thanks uh so the client in this case was the northal Norfolk County District Attorney's Office Adam Lily and so but as far as these samples from whom you received was that the Massachusetts State Police C uh they were the people I was in contact with about sending them uh we consider the client is the one who submitted the sample on our submission form but the person who physically sent the sample from one lap the other was the mpcl is that correct uh let me look at their form here there was sorry there was a form that came with it as well need find so yes the uh Commonwealth of Massachusetts uh Department of State Police forensic services division crime lab was the one who submitted the samples to our lab and are you familiar with or did you have any conversations with a uh forensic scientist at the State Police lab in Massachusetts name Moran har it yes I did is that someone that you have worked with on on prior cases in the past yes I have now I to direct your attention to the next uh exhibit for you number and again what up on the screen is that we have yes and if you could just describe to the jurry what we're looking at so that brown packaging you saw before this was actually what was uh inside of that brown packaging and the next uh exhibit and this is that same item that was inside but the back side of the packaging and that shows the two swabs that were contained inside that packaging and that was the first swab that we selected for testing what's contained in those photographs is that a fair and accurate portrayal of what you received and sort of how you uh delineated those those items as far as labeling them by your case number yes it was and for the case number as far as the FCD and the number sort of how was that determined or what does that mean so SCC always refers to forensic case uh in this case D is for dog because they were asking for dog DNA um testing uh if it was C it would be for cattle F would be for feline but the FC is always the beginning part the third letter always kind of denotes what species we're looking for now pursuit to receiving those particular items uh are you also given any sort of identifier as far as from the outside lab or the external vendor uh as far as um what um label they have for for the sample where the sample came from is from the outside lab uh we did receive an a piece of paper that with the submission saying it was taken from a a shirt and um do you recall specifically uh what the item number was or where it was swabbed on that shirt uh no do you remember that I I do not not with I would be on that piece of paper I believe would that also be uh delineated somewhere within your report and your findings uh the case number would be in our findings and and I'm sorry not specifically in your findings but within the context of your report with that in the report the case number that they gave us is listed in the report you're uh do you have your report with you ma'am yes I do you're with the Court's permission I would ask ask that the witness be allowed to refer to report for that information yes okay yes and I'm sorry what is that oh did you want did you want the case number there uh the case number the item number so the case number was listed as MSP number 22- 02184 item 7-1 1816 now with reference to these samples did the samples arrive as as you expected as far as their packaging and things of that nature yes everything was red sealed and as you saw that was documented in our uh with our photos and it's also documented in my notes did you test all of the samples that were submitted now yes we did and what is it that you were asked to test we were asked to determine species uh via K9 qpcr qpcr is that quantitative PCR that tells us how much DNA is in a sample and it is specific for K9 because the next goal they asked is if we could develop a DNA profile to possibly use for a comparison with a reference sample to be submitted later if we weren't able to see anything uh with K9 DNA there we were asked to do our species tests called meat now first with reference to the uh sort of nuclear DNA testing that you did um what's uh what were the results of that initial test for the K9 qpcr testing we did not see any K9 DNA and when you say just if you could explain the jury or expound upon that as far as what are you looking at and what are you seeing or not seeing uh that leads you to that so they can DNA we're looking for in that is that nuclear DNA that DNA that's used for an individual because the idea was if we can get if we see can9 DNA in the quantitative qpcr then we know we have K K9 DNA on that swab and we can try and use that to develop the DNA profile for a later comparison for the the questions that you were asked or what you were asked to test upon not finding any K9 DNA from the PCR testing or the qpcr testing what if any steps to be taken that further testing the next test we performed was our meat ID test it's a general species test a test for 12 species Al together uh they would include dog cat bison cattle horse uh sheep goat mouse rat pig and rabbit I'm pretty sure I got them all but I can't guarantee now and I'm sorry to jump around here a little bit but when going back to um sort of the qpcr testing can you explain to the jury sort of what is it what what type of instruments are you using and and what exactly goes into that process so we're taking the sample and we're using primers um that concentrate that point to a small piece of DNA um for canine um and it's supposed to amplify it and every time it's amplifying it's actually releasing a color a fluorescent color that it's measuring so if there's K9 DNA this florescent color keeps popping up and popping up and it gives it a measurement in which it will tell us how much of the K9 DNA we have but in this case the test did not see any fluoresence for K9 DNA so it was a negative result and then as far as um when you say K9 DNA is that uh dogs specifically or what if anything else would be included within canine in this qpcr test other canines will work uh or canids will work like uh wolfes uh coyotes and we are now doing some further testing on foxes but we have not concluded those tests now as far as the the meat ID test uh that you're talking about that sort of second can you explain uh again to the jury sort of what is involved in that and and what are you doing with regard to that so the meat ID test actually targets the mitochondrial DNA which makes it a little bit better there's like I said there's a thousand mitochondrial in a Cell versus that one nuclear DNA so it's a lot more there it's also a circular piece of DNA so it's a little bit more hearty it sticks around uh and we have regions of the mitochondria that are specific to each of those species that I listed and if we uh we have let me see here we have pointers that actually will give us two different Peaks uh if we get two peaks that are both for Pig uh we have a pig result if we get two peaks for dog we have a dog result or the same can go for any of the species that we have uh if we only get one Peak then we don't quantify that as being a positive result for that species so you would need more than one peak in order to make that sort of opinion or qualification as far as species go right we always have to have the two peaks for the species that we're um that we're getting results for and so with regard to uh the me testing that you did with these swabs uh these two swabs what if any uh results did you receive or what if anything did You observe upon completion of the test so for both the swabs we did see Pig um and we also actually did I did a little bit of a test where we only concentrated on the dog portion of the meat ID uh it you can think of it as when we have all 12 species there there's a lot of competition going on um by just concentrating on the dog meat ID it eliminates all the con uh all the competition it gives us a better chance of getting a result if there is K9 DNA there and that result was negative so the only result we got for both those swabs was for the pig and so again just to be clear as far as the um K9 was concerned it was not even one Peak from what you there was absolutely no K9 DNA now as far as the pig is concerned what if anything could that be from um you know I don't know where that could come from that would be speculation on my part uh it's a sensitive test I can tell you um so yeah that would it would depend on where that shirt had been and what the person had been doing with it my question I guess is if it as far as a source could that be from Beyond just an animal could it be from some other source such as food or something like that yes it could be from food we have tested the meat ID test in fact that's what it was developed for was for testing food products and so we've seen it come from uh cooked pork uh cooked bacon uh in terms of the pig um I do remember those were tested specifically I have just one moment sure fil uh just lastly just to be crystal clear from your testing in regard to both the qpcr and the me id testing there was absolutely no can9 DNA that you observed on the two samples that were submitted to you from the State Police lab Massachusetts that's correct we observe no K9 DNA thank you I have nothing further on all right Mr Jackson thank you good morning Miss hi uh just to finish that thought um start off there was no canine DNA detected in your testing correct correct So when you say there was no canine DNA that's a little bit of an overstatement correct there was no K9 DNA in the swabs that we tested exactly okay perfect so the Massachusetts State Police did not send you any actual items of clothing or cuttings or Source material did they no they did not um as a matter of fact the only thing to be tested were the swabs that you received those two swabs that you we saw very nicely photographed yes um you'd agree that your analysis of those swabs is only as good as the starting material with which you have to work correct I that would be correct I only have the swabs to test that's the only thing I can talk about so the Integrity of any DNA testing has to start foundationally with the proper recovery techniques for what's being tested what goes on the swab I have no idea how the agency collected the swabs so you're left I guess the next question would be you're left to assume that proper techniques were used to swab The Source material yes and for a forensic scientist that assumption may not always be valid well in cases we get cases can vary for us sometimes we get the actual Source material sometimes we do get the swabs uh it's dependent upon the agency sending it in it depends on their policies and procedures which I cannot dictate right so the because the the if the swab is not collected properly when the source material is not swabbed properly then you're left with sort of a garbage in garbage out analysis right but I wasn't there to see the swabs being collected so I have no idea I couldn't comment on that so that answers my next question you were not present when the swabs were taken correct no you couldn't oversee the collection of those swabs no you didn't take the swabs yourself no okay and you never did receive any of the source of material from which those swabs were taken no only the two swabs you do understand very clearly from your testimony and the UC Davis uh the University of California Davis lab um and the impressive work that that you all do you do understand proper protocols for evidence collection correct right when we do collection at our lab um for one thing you keep proper logs correct correct as a matter of fact in your report there's a log couple of pages of logs that literally de detail down to the minute when somebody touched those swabs correct correct that's because it's important to maintain those types of logs to avoid contamination on the one hand right I don't know if keeping the logs maintain prevents contamination that's a fair that's a fair correction the logs would give you an idea of who touched something when and if there was some contamination you might be able to work backward to figure out how that contamination occurred correct that's why the logs are in place correct it's to be able to see step by step where everything was going it maintains a very very specific chain of custody correct so everybody that touches those swabs or that item that's going into an Evidence Locker or coming out of an Evidence Locker or being tested that's highly highly regulated and it's marked on a law it's documented in my case notes and it's documented on our internal chain of custody so there's literally multiple documents that dictate I'm sorry that that memorialize uh the movement of that evidence right as it goes through our lab yes right and and your lab that those those U criteria include the time that something was touched yes the place where it was touched we don't document the place meaning it was taken out of this particular locker and put on this yes uh the the person that manipulated those those items or that it yes okay um you were asked about the processes that your lab undertakes to avoid or reduce contamination correct you were asked that by Mr LA on direct examination you recall that yes uh you went through what your lab and the accreditation process the the protocols that you employ to make sure that contamination is is reduced hopefully to a to a minimum yes but you don't know what any other lab might employ in terms of their reduction of contamination processes no I don't know this and you specifically don't know what the Massachusetts crime lab did or didn't do with this subject material before you got the swabs correct you don't know if they took any steps as a matter of fact to reduce contamination of the source material before the swabs were taken I don't know anything about how they took those swabs you would agree that for instance if the source material had been tossed on the bottom of an ambulance floor that could encourage contamination of that Source material objection can you answer that question I I don't know because we haven't tested that sort of thing it's an interesting question I I do agree but we have not done any Val validation which would be able to prove that sort of thing well I guess what I'm asking is if if the item is supposed to be not contaminated right it's supposed to be relatively pristine and it drops on the floor that might encourage contamination of that particular item that's supposed to be left as pristine as possible correct again I don't know the history of the item so I couldn't speak to it all right so I think you have to move along if in fact um The Source material had been was not packaged properly could that encourage contamination but I didn't see how the items were packaged I'm not asking you that in SC I'm asking you hypothetically get an item Source item that's going to be tested is not packaged and handled properly that could encourage contamination correct I have not seen that when I have seen when something's been packaged incorrectly is I've seen the induction of mold growth um which has prevented BAC or which causes bacteria which eats away at DNA so it doesn't give me contamination but it does mean that I don't see DNA there might be if something is is handled inap inappropriately for instance if something is handled sloppily before it's tested it might reduce the validity of the ultimate test that's undertaken correct objection I'm going to sustain that there are certain proper swabbing techniques involved in in the preparation of a of a swab correct yes uh that includes wearing gloves using clean tools correct correct it includes proper documentation of the swabbing correct um the documentation might include the location or the description of exactly where the item was swabbed is that right correct that would be helpful in your analysis to know exactly where something was swabbed no what about any visible markings uh to show where swabbing was taken is that normally done it again it varies from Lab to lab what we get I unfortunately can't dictate what every of the lab does they all have their own policies and procedures and we work with Labs across the United States and the world if you were swabbing something in your lab which is an accredited lab would you encourage marking exactly where something was swabbed so it could later be documented if when I swab things in my lab I actually circle on the item there's a note with the case number my initials the date and also ruler present in the photo so if we have to go go back in your circumstance that you just uh described if we have to go back and try to replicate exactly where that swab was taken you could do that yes okay and you think that's an obviously an important protocol that's the protocol in our lab so the swabs that are used are steril swabs obviously yes in in fact isn't it true that Primal Labs discouraged for purposes of DNA swabbing discourage the use of swabs with wooden sticks because they can encourage contamination as opposed to plastic sticks I have not heard that um the swab is supposed to be moistened right we I do suggest that people moist them with water in order to make a better transfer and that needs to be distilled water sterile water sterile water um and you swab over an area of of interest and then generally you would photograph the area that's being swapped correct I do um you would want to air dry that swab completely before you package it is that right when I do my collection I don't need to air dry my swabs because they their next step is actually the extraction process so I'm not doing collection and then pausing I'm doing collection and starting my extraction when you as a matter of fact when you're collecting bio material bi tissue samples for instance blood other bio materials uh you would not want to package those in plastic because that would encourage some sort of mold growth molden bacteria yes so it's discouraged to put any blood for instance in plastic containers correct you certainly wouldn't put blood material that you're working with in non-sterile containers would you jaction sustained would you put non would you put bi biological material in non-sterile containers objection I'll allow that we don't have everything that we use is sterile all of our tubes we would use or once we do a collection we put it in a tube for the extraction process those tubes are autoclaved and uh they don't have contamination they are sterile you wouldn't use a solar cup I'm sorry what objection Solo Cup the objection sustain um you would maintain a strict chain of custody over that item to ensure the integrity and the admissibility of that DNA I did yes and I think we've covered this you may have answered this already that your personal protocol is that you actually photograph where everything is being swabbed from correct correct um if there was DNA present on a on a source item and it wasn't sampled properly or swabbed properly in the right spot then that DNA would likely not be detected correct I don't know why you know I don't know the circumstances or why you would swab things you know in a specific spot I know in my lab how we do things what I'm asking is if you have a source material and there's DNA over here and it's swabbed over here you wouldn't expect this swab to detect that DNA that's correct action move to St I'll let him have it what information were you provided about these two particular samples I wasn't really provided any information uh I had to work with the uh the person from the crime lab asking about what they wanted to test and try and narrow down the testing in terms of species uh simply because it helps us make make sure that we're directing the testing in the correct way for the answer that they're um or for the question that they're answering uh so knowing the species in this case was important um it also made it so that we made sure that the testing was affordable possible understood would it be important for you to understand the condition of the material that was being swabbed as you engage your analysis I'm not meaning was it clean was it dirty did it have blood on it did it not have blood on it things of that nature uh no since we don't get to choose how evidence is given to us um nice and clean with nice and clean DNA would be perfect but uh that's not our perfect world we get we get samples from so hard happens does it no it hard ever happens um it would be important however to know whether or not there were obvious Inhibitors on the source item when it was swapped uh knowing that there's dirt would be helpful um or possibly blood uh because those can inhibit uh but not necessar we don't necessarily have to know that ahead of time were you told in this instance that the swabs were taken from a garment that had blood on it no uh is blood an inhibitor it can be yes is garment Dy an inhibitor yes uh were you told that there was blood on a dyed garment when you received the swabs no your report indicates that the swabs that you did did test these two swabs quote did not indicate the presence of canine nuclear DNA but did indicate the presence of Inhibitors end quote correct that was in our qpcr right you explained that quote this result is is obtained when either number one the canine nuclear DNA is degraded is that right correct number two it's quote obscured by inhibition end quote quote or number three there is no canine nuclear DNA present correct correct so in your report you indicated that there are three reasons that you list for the possibility of not finding or not detecting the canine nuclear DNA in that sample correct all right two of those three reasons allow for the the idea that the DNA is actually present but it's either obscured by Inhibitors or it's so degraded that it can't be detected the nuclear DNA right but it still could exist it could yes it's just not you can't see it if it's obscured and you can't see it if it's degraded correct um explain how an inhibitor works in your testing uh inhib excuse me an inhibitor just actually stops the the uh PCR process from happening and so therefore you would see no results so did the inhibitor did you find Inhibitors in this sample in the nuclear DNA testing yes and was that the qualitative polymer Chain Reaction test qpcr test yes and in fact an inhibitor is pretty much any chemical that's literally going to inhibit the enzyme from helping make the copies correct certain dyes inhibit yes and certainly blood inhibits he from blood yes and because of that at least in that sample the nuclear DNA sample you're not saying that there was no canine DNA there you're saying that the testing did not detect it and in the in the qpcr nuclear test correct and you've heard obviously there's a a famous quote in science that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence right correct you describe to the jurs what that phrase means jaction sustain means just because you don't find something means it's not there objection sustained you were able to detect the presence of pig DNA right correct and I think you said on direct examination that that could come from a number of sources including food sources right correct could come from dog treats pardon me yes could come from dog treats um of fact dog treats that are pig ears literally jaction allow it right I believe so um or it could be that the shirt that was the source material was contaminated not properly preserved I can't say where that DNA came from you're not aware of any feral pig populations in Massachusetts are you I'm not um dog saliva would obviously be a a good and a rich source of DNA correct you would agree it depends on the context um we have cases where I mean I can refer to two cases that we did recently where there was small bites and we were able to get uh nuclear DNA from from those sources because there's probably saliva yes right so saliva contains active living growing cells that Slough off in the salivating process right correct that's why often times for 23 and me or other other um companies they want you to swab the inside of your cheek right DNA right yes so that's a relatively rich source of DNA you would agree it it depends on the amount of contact in the attack how ever dog claws the claws would not be a good source of DNA would they no and the reason for that is because the claws are like human fingernails they're made of keratin correct keratin is dead hardened cells not a good source for DNA not in terms of scratching um we can we can't uh do something where we pulverize them and we can get DNA from them then but you have to have the cloth generally yes we have to have the claw material I spoke over a little bit but I want to make sure we're clear about that you're talking about you can possibly get DNA in a mitochondrial test if you have the claw and pulverize the claw correct possible to find some DNA but in terms of touch DNA we don't difficult to find it from a claw I really can't speak about touch DNA because it's not something we've tested or validated in our lab so you didn't have any Claus you tested here no as a matter of fact you were just testing swabs from a shirt correct um and you've already agreed that keratin is not a good DNA Source because it's dead cells corre um would you agree that one of the reasons that it's difficult to detect K9 DNA it was difficult to detect K9 DNA in this case is because it was potentially degraded right jaction ask the question ask the question differently sure in your report you Ed indicated that there were two obvious possibilities of not detecting the DNA one was obscuring because of Inhibitors and one was depredation the DNA would be too de again that was for the new K9 DNA so to be clear in your conclusion you're not saying you're not testifying today that there was no dog DNA on that Source shirt that was swab you're saying that the two swabs that you got did not detect the DNA correct in our meat ID test we also have a test for an inhibitor it's also called an IPC it's this same uh initial internal uh positive control um and that's what did not work in the nuclear testing it did work and it worked very well in the test on the meat ID so there wasn't any inhibition that we were seeing on the meat ID test but that's the ID test that you found P right but it also was testing for dog at the same time but when you tested for dog for nuclear DNA that test was either inhibited or so degraded that you couldn't tell for the nuclear test yes thanks that's all I have hey Mr L M on that last point it was uh what pertains to the nuclear DNA testing was either inhibited degraded or wasn't there is that correct correct um now as far as um samples in your line of work um are you typically going like outside of the lab or or going out to like a a scene or anything like and collect samples in that regard no uh everything is sent to us so when you're collecting from a sample it's done in the lab set is that correct and if we get the item we're collecting it um but we have times in this case where the samples are sampled at the the other crime lab and then we just get those samples so it happens both ways now if you recall what if any conversation did you have with Miss Haron or anybody from the Massachusetts uh State lab uh in regard to the swabbing or the collection process objection I'm going to allow it um I gave her our basic swabbing practice um even though they are a crime lab I would assume that they would know what they were doing which would be to swab with the sterile swab using sterile water allowing the swab to dry completely and then packaging and paper and storing at room temperature before sending it to us and when you received it and those so seven photographs before you was the packaging that you receiv received was that appropriate was that what you expected yes it was what I expected now you described uh undirect as far as the mitochondrial DNA testing in the me id as being a harder DNA is that correct so yes the mitochondrial DNA is a hardier DNA there's a lot more of it when we're testing for nuclear DNA uh like I explained before there's only one copy of DNA in a Cell which is for the mitochondrial in one cell there's thousands so you can have a lot more there uh it makes for a a better test at least in terms of species uh it's just a more sensitive test and there were no Inhibitors or anything like that in the mitochondrial the me id testing that you did no the IPC worked worked very well thank may approach just to retrieve the yes did you have anything further Mr Jackson very brief there okay you indicated that you gave Miss Marine harck certain protocols to follow in terms of her swabbing and Recovery is that right uh yes are you aware that Miss hartnet had also failed certain proficiency exam yours I am going to strike that and uh the objection sustained thank you nothing further all right you are all set thank you very much all right could I see Council just briefly please all right Mr L your next witness yes Ryan the stand okay and Mr Jackson and Mr yed you're prepared to go forward with Miss Little's absence with Mr Nagel yes your okay stop stand face you saw Mr the of the court and jury in the case now hearing for the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you go I do thank you when never you ready Mr L thank you uh good morning sir morning could you please State your uh name and spell your last name for the Jersey Ryan Nagel n a g l and Mr Nel where do you live I live uh in Canton how long have you lived in Canton uh 30 years and uh who if anyone do you live in Canton with uh with my girlfriend now and her son and um prior to that where did who if anyone did do live with uh my f my parents my brother and sister and uh you have two siblings a brother and a sister correct and are you the oldest yes and your sister's name is what Julie now and do you work sir yes I do what do you do for I'm a union titin kner which is uh HVAC and how long have you been doing that about 12 years now sir if I could uh turn your attention to uh January 28th into January 29th of 2022 you recall that I do um do you recall what days of the week they were I believe it was a weekend and um at some point um you recall going out on that evening uh yes I do and uh where did you go and who if anyone go uh I went to CF McCarthy's uh to begin the night um with uh two of my friend well now my ex-girlfriend and uh my friend Rick to meet up with uh my sister and uh so your girlfriend at the time and what was her name uh Heather Maxon and uh your friend Ricky what's his last name uh Dan Tano and you and uh your girlfriend at the time is Max how long have the two of you been uh probably about a year year and a half and uh your friend Ricky how long are the two of you oh probably since sixth grade so pretty long time and you went to see if McCarthy is that a establishment you're familiar with uh yes sir it's in the center of town I've been there plenty of times before uh yes sir and uh did you go just sort of the three of you or did you meet someone else there uh met my sister there and uh where within the bar did you go um I believe at a table to my acknowledgement what I remember yeah uh do you recall sort of what side of the bar you uh I was on the believe I was on the left side yeah the bathrooms so if you're walking in on the left side towards the bathrooms correct and do you recall about what time it was that you got there I don't know probably I don't even really remember 78 maybe and uh do you recall how it was that you got there like what mode of Transport did you get oh uh Ricky drove and uh Ricky drove his own vehicle is that correct correct sir what kind of vehicle did Ricky have uh I believe it was a 2018 F-150 pick up truck called the the color or anything uh gray dark gray and uh he picked you up is that correct correct sir and was Miss Maxon with you when he picked you up yes um now as far as uh see if McCarthy's what concerns um gra a bar were drinking is that correct correct sir what drinking uh probably beer it's usually what I drink do you have a particular brand or anything uh corite and as far as your girlfriend at the time Miss Max and you recall what if you were drinking I would probably say beer as well I'm probably either budl or MC Ultra and uh your friend Ricky was he drinking as well uh yeah he had a few and if you know about how long were you at CF probably a few hours probably two maybe three hours now following that where did you go uh from there we went to so a friend of mine shot me a text and we went to uh the hillside which is on the other side of town any you familiar with that establishment as well uh yes sir and when you say it's on the other side of town about how long is the drive sort of between C of McCarthy and the hillside probably 10 minutes and uh when you arrive there uh how many friends are we talking about that you're meeting up with uh it was just one other uh one other gentleman and uh fair to say when you get there you you have some more drinks yes sir same thing yep and uh if you know in total sort of over the course of the evening as you're going from one place to the other how many how many beers did you have oh probably between I don't know five to eight maybe give take I'm not sure and is that a large amount or a normal amount how would you um I guess for the weekend it probably be like a normal maybe I guess and you weren't driving uh no sir no I was not and about how long was it that you were at the hillside I would say I was probably there hourish give or take and do you know about what time you left uh probably around midnight and when you left from there where was it that you went I went to pick up my sister Julie because she shot me a text asking for a ride and so you were at the hillside when you received a text from your sister Julie correct correct sir and um that she what if anything did she indicate as far as where she was or where you were going to pick uh she said uh she was at her friend Brian's house and do that friend Brian is that someone that you're familiar with yes sir who do you know that person uh just my sister's best friend since they were kids and I'm sorry do you know what his last name is oh Albert and his house had you been there before I've driven by it a few times yes that somewhere you had picked your sister up from on pirate uh yes sir and again as far as when you leave from the Hillside and you're going to um this address you know did you know what the address was or did you have to ask for sister for it or no I already knew where the house was um did you know specifically what the address was or you just knew generally where I didn't know the address I know the street name but I didn't know the number what did you know the street name uh Fair uh fair viiew and as your um so you exit Hillside getting the truck and who's who's in the truck this uh Ricky is driving I'm in the passenger seat and Heather is in the back seat and the back seat as far as Ricky's truck is concerned can you describe sort of what that is uh uh it was like a jump seat it's the uh it's a a crew cab so it's got like the suicide doors on the back and by Suicide Doors you mean they sort of open up in like sort of a triangle is that uh yes sir now about how long was it after you received the text your sister to the time that you sort of jump in the truck and start to go over toap probably 40 minutes or so we kind of took our time she said she didn't like she wasn't say come now she just said you know when you get a second can you come pick me up and bring me home and uh if you know about how long a drive is it from the hillside to five minutes seven minutes maybe and as you're driving along as far as the address is concerned is that something that you gave to Ricky as far as the GPS or were you giving them sort of verbal directions uh verbal directions and do you recall what you sort of said as far as where to go uh yes sir and what was that sir um like the direction we went you mean like the street I think we can move beyond that Mr L what I'm trying to ask uh sir is uh as you're approaching Fairview uh do you recall which side of fair viiew or how you approach Fair um I was coming down cedarest so Fairview would be on my left and as coming down uh C Crest with Fair View on your left what if anything else did you observe sort of in front of the truck uh I noticed a car coming up the hill towards us and can you describe the other car that you saw coming up uh it was a black SUV and was that a black SUV that you were familiar with or anything like that no I really no I didn't get the end of the question please I'm sorry sir if you could just and I know it's difficult but if you could just wait till I finish the question sorry so the phographer can um so I'm sorry so as you were coming up and you see this uh black SUV uh did you recognize it as something you had seen before uh no sir and when it's so you're approaching at the same time is that correct uh yeah just about yes and with regards to Fairview being on the left what if anything had uh Ricky done with respect to the to the vehicle to Signal the left hand uh he put his left blinker on and that other vehicle that was coming in the opposite direction what if anything did You observe as far as uh their Direction uh they had their right directional line and so as a result of that what if anything did did Ricky he flashed his headlights to let the person go because they were going to beat us obviously to the to the turn so and uh when they were coming and so they went first is that correct yes sir and Ricky's truck then proceeds behind that black SUV onto Fair yes sir and as you're coming up to the house uh to Brian Albert JR's house uh where did that black you go uh probably about kind of right in front of the house I would say came up to the same house that you were going to is that correct sir yes and as far as uh Vehicles being the the black SUV and Ricky's truck are they facing in the same direction yes sir and which side of the truck uh that you're in is is facing towards uh the the house uh Brian Brian's house say that again sorry very poorly put question so with regard to the truck that you're in yes um is it the driver's side the passenger side or something else that's facing the house oh passenger side so my side so your side and the passenger side facing the house yes sir and where did Ricky stop the truck in relation to the house uh right in front of the driveway and uh when you stop um in front of the driveway about how far away from you is the black SUV that you saw are a car or car length in front of me a car length and a half in front of me and as you're sitting behind that um what if anything was in between the truck Ricky's truck and the the black SUV in front of uh there's nothing sir and at any point in time uh that you were there in front of the house did you observe anybody get out of that truck I mean get out of the SUV uh no sir I did not and when you arrived there what if any communication do you have with Julie inside the house in reference to your presence uh I texted her when we were coming down um Cedar CR saying hey I'm almost here you know get ready to come out and about how long was it between the time that Ricky parks in front of the driveway and the time that your sister comes out probably about two minutes and you recall seeing her exit from the house uh yes I do and how did she sort of exit and how did she come up to the truck uh like you mean like what door or what door and how did she I would say the side door next to the garage and how was was it that she did she come across the lawn down the driveway how did she come up to uh guess she crossed through the lawn a little bit but obviously walked down the driveway cuz we were at the end of it and at this time when you're in front of the house uh on Fairview uh what was the weather doing at that point uh just started to snow sir and as far as accumulation on the road or the the grass or anything did you see anything like that um very little wasn't wasn't too much on the on the ground yet and as far as when you're the sister was walking down from the house uh to the truck U did you see anything as far as like footprints in the snow or anything like that no I was not really looking for that so not anything you noticed no no sir um so she comes to the truck um how was it that you spoke to did you roll down the window open the door how did that uh I opened the door just cuz I assumed she was going to jump in the back seat and she goes oh would you guys like to come inside um I looked over at Ricky and he goes eh maybe we should call it a night it obviously we were out for a long time so she goes I'm going to I'm going to stay a little longer and so she shut the door and I watched to go in the house and that was it and uh the time from the time that your sister came out and the time that she went back in the house I know how long period of time was uh maybe 30 45 seconds tops a relatively short amount of time yeah it was kind of like an in andout thing now it's as far as the black SUV in front of you um what if anything did You observe about uh movement of that vehicle at any point I noticed that the brake lights the only reason I not this noticed is because the brake lights were on uh and it moved would say moved up maybe another car length in front of us from where it was and when was that in relation to when you were parked out there waiting for Julie talking to Julie when did that uh probably simultaneously when she came out the door uh so moved up a little bit further about a car car and a half uh further away from us uh facing in the same direction yes sir and uh was that the only time that you observed the vehicle move up or did it move up again uh no that was the only time I saw it move and when you say the brake lights what part of the brake lights were you looking at uh the only reason I noticed that it was the brake lights and not the regular parking lights because the uh the third light above was uh was on and so above sort of in the the center of the back of the vehicle correct sir yes now as far as any of the other lights or any other part of the vehicle what if any damage did You observe on the vehicle at that I did not observe it was dark out and as far as when the vehicle moved up from one position to the next position um what if anything did You observe in the roadway as far as tire marks in the snow or anything like that uh I didn't really observe any any other tracks in the snow besides the car in front of us so you did observe tire marks from the car in front of you uh yes okay but no other time marks that you saw no sir and as far as uh around the vehicle uh at any point in time did you observe anybody exit the vehicle or be outside of the vehicle or anything like that uh no sir no I did not and did you see anybody go from the vehicle to the house no sir and did you see any footprints in the snow or anything like that around the vehicle uh no mainly because I obviously it was late at night and I wasn't really looking for any of that now as far as um your sister when she comes out to the truck outside um how would you describe um did she seem overly intoxicated to you yeah seemed like she had a few yeah was she slurring her words or stumbling as she was walking uh no sir let me ask from the time that you came down um you came down from C to Crest is that right correct sir yes so from the time that you came down from CED Crest the black SUV is in front of your vehicle sort of the entire time correctly uh from like the point I turned on to C crust you mean yes no the only time I saw the vehicle was when we probably got up 100 ft from from Fairview and and I'm sorry it's a poorly po question is what I'm asking is after you turn from CED on the fair that vehicle is in front of you the entire time oh yes sir yes yes and so you watch your sister Julie go back up to the house is that correct uh yes sir I did to make sure she got inside okay yes and Did You observe her go inside the house I did yes and uh after she gets inside the house what if anything to Ricky do with the truck uh he pulled out to go around uh the SUV in front of us and then to go home and as far as pulling now as far as sort of the distance between the truck that you're in and the SUV that's in front of you did Ricky put it in reverse and then have to like maneuver around or could he just sort of pull away from the curve he just pulled away and as he's going by uh the dark SUV um what if anything did You observe with reference uh I observed that there was a a person inside the car with uh the interior light on and that would be sort of a a dome light is that right correct yes could you see where the where the dome light was as far as in the left right or center of the vehicle I was in the center and uh can you describe the person that you saw uh where were they first of all where were they in the car uh they were in the driver's seat and can you describe what the person looked like uh it was a woman and uh how do you know that it was a woman um had long hair and uh do you know what color the hair was uh no I didn't I was wasn't really paying attention to to it I was kind of just watching Julie go in as we were pulling away your direction was to the house as you were watching Julie go in and Ricky pulling away sort of simultaneously yes sir um so that's why you're looking over in that area of the house correct and uh the woman that you see in the drive seat of the vehicle um could you see her lips moving as if she was talking or anything like that uh no I didn't wasn't really paying attention to that and as far as um what if anything did you observe her to to be doing or how would she see uh it seemed like she was looking straight ahead with her hands at 10 and two on the steering wheel now as far as uh the other what if anything else did you see or who if anyone else did you see with uh within the interior of the vehicle at that time I only saw one person at the time I didn't wasn't really looking it just happened to be like at a glance as we drove by and so your head's already turned in that direction looking to see your sister get inside the house correct correct sir yes and so as you're going by and you make these observations of this uh woman in the front seat of the vehicle what if any movement did you do of your body or your head so to look into the V I just turned my head as we were driving by to watch Julie go in and then turn straight look forward so it's not as if you were peeking forward or going back to get a better view inside the vehicle no sir now during the time that you were outside of the house uh did you hear any noises or see or hear anything coming from that vehicle in front of you uh no sir I did not and as far as within your own vehicle when Julie comes out what if anything did you or Ricky do with regard to sort of the radio within uh turn the music down we had music playing we had music playing as you pull up turn it down when Julie comes out to talk correct sir yes and at the time that you're pulling away from the curb had you had you or anybody sort of you know turn the radio back up uh not that I remember sir no now with reference to when Julie comes out and you you open the door so that you can talk to her is that correct yes sir yes and did you open uh just the the front passenger door or the back door or both I opened my passenger door that was it and you were expecting her to essentially get in at that point is that fair correct sir yes I was now when you open the door uh to the pickup truck the passenger side door what if anything happened with the dome light inside the truck hey went on now after you go past uh the dark SUV um where did you go from there uh to my house sir and as far as your house who if anyone gets dropped off there in addition to yourself just me and Heather and Ricky then leaves from there is that correct yes sir and from that road on Fairview to your house about how long a ride is that 5 minutes when you left uh the roadway on Fair viiew the vehicle that you had seen after an initially pulls up an additional car car and a half or so um when you left was it in the same position um after its movement that you observe uh yes are you honor with the course permission I would just ask to uh publish a couple of photos for use with this witness okay uh Mr Gman if I could have uh exhibit number 71 May Witness sir right on the table a laser thank you um so Mr Nel up on the screen do you recognize what what is depicted in that photograph up on yes I do sir what do you recognize it to be say that again what do you recognize it to be that it's the Albert's house and that fair and accurate betrayal um oh what the house looked like at the night that you were there on the the early morning of the 29 uh looks like there was more snow than what I came to more snow in this Photograph and when and when you correct yes sir now with reference to uh Ricky and the truck um if you could using that laser pointer you see that area of the street in front of the house where Ricky parked the truck I do sir right about there um and Miss Gilman if I could have next exhibit number 72 now the area that you were describing when you first pull up to the house and the dark SUV is in front of you do you see that area uh within this photog uh yes I do sir you could using the laser point and direct attention to where in this Photograph and it's going if I could have the next photograph uh next exhibit excuse me number 73 again what's up on the screen do you recognize what's in that photograph yes I do sir and within this Photograph do you see that sort of secondary position where the vehicle moves up and where you see it in that secondary position yes and again if you could using the laser point and direct the jury's attention to wear Andra and from that side of the yard there any sort of landmarks or anything else that you observe sort of in the area where that vehicle pulled up to in that secondary position I know there's a flag pole there and there I believe it's an electrical box along with bushes flag pole observe that in this picture as well uh yes sir if you could just briefly direct well thank you m g you can uh take that I have just moment yes no further questions for this we okay cross examination your good morning Mr Nel good morning a couple of questions for you since January 29th have you been contacted by anybody from either the the Albert family or the McCade family about uh the circumstances of January 20 29th 2022 uh no I have not sir um have you been contacted by any other person other than the the Albert family or the McCade family since January 29 2022 about your testimony or your statements uh about my statements no but I mean me and recky are best friends and obviously it's things that we've brought up in the past yes I'm I didn't mean to speak over you so you and Ricky and how do I pronounce his last name dant Tano Danto you and Mr Danto have obviously discussed the circumstances of that night yes sir and what happened yes did that change your uh testimony in any way no sir no it did not um you were interviewed by a massachusett State Trooper honor about February 7th 2022 correct sound about right yes you do you remember uh which state trooper that was uh not off the top of my head no his name Michael Proctor sound right no sir I don't think I don't think so you don't believe it was Michael Proctor I'm not 100% sure no I'm not sure do you remember uh the the state trooper that did interview you had a partner named Yuri bunck uh yes that sounds that sounds familiar yes okay um during that interview you told the and I'm just going to call him the trooper since you don't remember his name the trooper and Yuri bunck uh that there were two other people in the car when you approached 34th here say that again you told those two Troopers that there were two other people in the car with you Ricky dantono yes yes in my vehicle yes sir okay uh so they were well aware of the identity of Ricky duno and Max Danto dantono and Heather Maxon at the time correct as early as February 7th 2022 yes um I want to talk for a second about your approach to Fair viiew Road you were coming along Cedar Crest correct correct you would have been going westish I know it's a curved Road sort of West if Fair View goes north and south yeah okay yes you would going west and then turning South onto Fairview correct correct yes you indicated that the SUV the dark SUV beat you beat your car to the intersection is that right correct sir and because the car was ahead of you uh Ricky flashed his lights as a as a courtesy to say you got the you got the turn correct sir because both of you were were approaching the intersection but the SUV was closer correct sir uh you pulled up to fair viiew and stopped relatively close to the driveway as you've indicated to the jurors correct correct sir and your car was as much as three car lengths behind that SUV do you recall that uh when we arrived yes I would say car car length and a half at the time okay do you recall um being interviewed uh hon about May 11th 2023 by individuals not associated with the Commonwealth uh gentleman came to my door but I did not speak to him refres Rec elction do you remember talking in May of 2023 with anybody about this case uh I don't know 2023 may have been the feds okay let's I'm trying to just listen to my question no I understand were you talked to by anybody don't say who just tell me if you were talking yes or not yes I believe so okay do you think it would refresh your recollection as to when that interview took place if you saw a report uh yes sure okay may I approach you yes a date right up top and then a highlighted portion at the bottom if you wouldn't mind taking a glance at that and then look up to me when you're finished reviewing that okay may apprach yes thank you can you show Mr L what you show the no does this refresh your recollection sir that you indicated in that interview just just two parts does it refresh your recollection understood does that refresh your recollection about what you may have said uh yes so there was an interview in May of 2023 yes and you did indicate uh some distance that you were behind the SUV in that interview yes well at the beginning it was only a car length and a half and then probably at the End by the time we left it was about three car L okay fair enough so at the end it was as much as 20 to 50 ft ahead of give or take yes okay so 50 ft obviously further than the length of this courtroom correct all right uh so at a time when you were in the truck still stationary that SUV had pulled ahead of you at least three car LS correct and by the end yes okay um you've already indicated but I want to make sure I'm clear about this did any car pull in between Ricky's truck and the SUV when you were sitting behind the SUV no sir you didn't see a Jeep uh no sir with a big old snow plow on the front of it no sir I did not that car was never between your car and the SUV was it I never saw any other vehicle in between us all right fair enough um when you got to the location you indicated that you had texted your sister that you were arriving is correct sir yes how long before she came out the door uh to meet you at the car since I like the text you mean correct two minutes because we were coming down cedarest and I texted say we're almost there and then once you got on cedarest it's just a few seconds to drive up to the driveway of faap correct yes did she text you back I don't remember you had your phone out yes it was in I'm guessing it was in your lap or in your hand I I would assume yes okay uh so for a period of time while you were inside the cab of the truck as you were pulling up you were monitoring your phone to determine whether or not she was going to text you back step out of the house whatever yes finally uh your sister did come out the front door is that right correct sir and when she came out the front door you were looking toward sort of toward the right now when you say front door like there was there's two doors to the house that's a good point um there's a let's call it a front door which is the Classic front door and then a side door correct sir yes which door did she come out uh the side door next to the garage okay so that would have been close to 90° from where you were seated you would have been looking to your right yeah not necessarily looking straight ahead correct all right so for that period of time as you're looking to your right you see her come out the side door yes sir and you watch her approach down the driveway correct so at this point you don't know what's happening with the truck in front of you at in those moments no I wasn't really paying attention to that at the time okay um you and indicated that uh you were you said on direct examination that you believe that once she was out and at the truck that she was there for 30 or 40 seconds correct sir do you remember actually testifying at a previous Hearing in May of 2022 that it was more than five minutes that she was out by the truck uh it was not 5 minutes I'm saying the whole time that I was there probably between two to three do you remember being asked how long if you know were you talking with Julie out in front of the house and you indicating under a little over 5 minutes I would say I mean if you got it sure I mean yes whatever you guys have I'm sorry tell what page it is or something have that back yes sir yep thank you just take a look at that highlighted portion and look up we finished may I approach yes thank you thank you Mr Nel does that refresh your recollection seems that yes okay uh and is it in fact was it your testimony that back in May of 2022 much closer to the event in question that you indicated under oath that y'all were actually talking for closer to 5 minutes the whole thing probably yeah okay you indicated that you opened up the the truck door is that right I opened up my passenger door correct so that doesn't does that you know F-150 does that automatically open up the suicide door as well uh no it does not there's a handle okay on the inside of the door to open so it was just the passenger door that was open correct sir got it and your sister Julie would have been standing in the crook of that door correct yes so the door would sort of obstruct something to her right or toward the front of the truck correct that would be the door right uh how tall is the truck is it is it lifted uh it was yes okay so that door is probably up above ey level uh it wasn't that high no okay uh you talked to you indicated that while she was out there you turned the music down so you could have a conversation with her correct you talked whether or not she wanted to come in the the truck and leave correct say again you talked about whether or not she wanted to get in the truck and leave I asked if she was coming yes you also talked about whether or not you would come in the house and stay she asked that yes okay so there there was a conversation back and forth about either you staying at 34 Fairview or her leaving 34 Fairview and getting in the car correct sir there was also a conversation about whether or not um you guys needed to give her a ride then or if she could get ride on her own after you guys left if she wanted to stay correct sir yes and part of that conversation included even talking about whether or not maybe her mom your mom would come get her after you guys left I would assume maybe I don't two years ago right understood uh but there was it's safe to say that there was a a dialogue back and forth during which time you're engaged with your sister to your right she's engaged with you looking straight ahead in the crook of the door when it's freezing cold out correct all right and during this time your attention is focused on your sister obviously yes at some point she did decide to stay yep and at that point uh she then left the crook of the door you would shut the door I'm guessing you shut the door yes sir and then Ricky figured out okay we're GNA we're going to get out of here and she's not coming with us correct did y'all wait long enough to see her go inside the house uh just gradually pulling away and watched her walk in the house okay uh and that as that answers my next question when you pulled away you didn't speed away correct correct sir gradually slowly pulled away and out and around the SUV that was in front of you correct sir yes so youall made up the distance at that point uh after you had this maybe five minute conversation with your sister you made up the distance and got up to the SUV that was in front yes all her tail lights all the tail lights were intact I to my acknowledgement yes I mean as you sit here I me like may I of course I mean I'm not there to you know look at a car and be like Oh is there any damage on a vehicle it's 12:30 at night obviously I had a few drinks I'm looking for that I just noticed that the brake lights were on so right but the point is as you sat there and you've testified about this before you noticed no damage on any of the tail lights not to my acknowledgement no okay there's three tail lights one to the left one to the right and one Center top correct sir and you didn't notice or note anything out of the ordinary with regard to the rear of that truck no like I said it was dark O Okay uh at any point did you see that SUV in front of you drive up 50 or 60 ft slam into reverse and then drive backward no okay at any point did you see that SUV reverse and hit a pedestrian Jack I I'll allow that you didn't see that right no at no point did you see a person laying on the lawn no but I also wasn't looking but you didn't see it no and you did see the truck in front of you the SUV yes sorry the SUV in front of you correct all right you didn't see a person standing or lying on the ground anywhere around that SUV did you no and it's not just that you didn't see that SUV hit a pedestrian that did not happen while you were sitting there did it ja can you can go ahead and answer that uh no I did not after you drove away or drove up slowly uh in order to drive away you were the passenger or as you drove away I should say you were the passenger closest to the SUV as you would be passing it correct correct sir yes you looked out the right window of that F150 correct correct and you could actually see inside the SUV as it set there idling correct correct that's because the dome light was on isn't that right correct sir and you noticed that the dome light on was on inside because you could clearly see what was happening inside the the SUV at that time as you passed by mean I wasn't directly looking inside I was making sure my S I got in the house okay right but you did look inside that SUV as I passed by yes and you saw one person that's all I saw at the time yes female with long hair is that right correct and you did not see anybody else inside that SUV no I acknowledgement as a matter of fact you were asked that in prior testimony and you indicated in response to that basic question know she was alone correct correct sir yes thank you okay just to be clear sir she was alone as far as you could see correct correct sir yes okay nothing further on you are all set Mr Nagel thank you very much appreciate it all right jurors this seems like a great time to take our all follow me please um no think so I needan so for e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e thank you please be seated close back in second all right your next witness Mr L yes you're the call the call Miss Heather Maxon to the stand okay watch Step for the give to the jury in case the now hearing should be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you I do all right whenever you're ready Mr thank you H uh good morning man' morning could you uh please state your name and spell your last name for Heather Maxon M ax o n and uh where do you live now planville and how long have you lived my whole life um do you work ma' I do what do you do for I'm a nanny and how long have you been doing that uh about four years uh ma'am if I could direct your attention to uh January 28th into January 29th of 2022 do you recall those dates I do and um do you recall what days of the week though uh the weekend Saturday Friday Saturday and um as far as the evening of the 28th what if any plans or or where were you on that evening I was with my boyfriend at the time Ryan and we were out uh in Kenton at local bars and your boyfriend Ryan has last name is Nel correct and did he live in Canon at the time yes and um do you recall about what time it was uh that you left to go out to a bar that night I don't remember now sometime in the afternoon and who if anyone did you go with in addition to yourself and and Rich uh our other friend Ricky what's Ricky's last name Danto and how do you know Ricky Danto through Ryan friends with your boyfriend at the time Ryan yes correct and at that time sort of end in January 2022 how long had you and Ryan been uh I'd say about a year and uh did you know at that time sort of his his parents his siblings things like that I did yes and how many siblings did Ryan two uh brother and a sister correct and what's his sister's name Julie she older and younger than R younger now at some point you said in the afternoon or so you go out uh to somewhere in Canton correct correct and do you recall where is it that you went we were at CF McCarthy's and how did you get to well prior to go in and see if McCarthy where were you at Ryan's in Kon and uh do you recall how you got from Ryan's house to CF I don't remember no what I'm asking is do you recall did you drive and Ryan drive and how how did you to CF McCarthy's I drove and uh do you recall um if you drove do you recall where you parked I don't McCarthy is that somewhere that you had been to report yes and uh do you recall generally speaking when you came into CF McCarthy's where was it the the three of you went can you rephrase the question where within the establishment uh do you recall where you SE it at the bar or the table oh oh um the bar and um if you know about how long period of time were you at se of M I don't recall and was it just sort of the three of you that were there yes and uh better say you went out to a bar and and you were drinking correct and do you recall uh what you were drinking I don't remember it was probably a beer of some sort and uh same for Ryan and same for Ricky do you recall what they were drinking I don't I don't recall now um typically would they be drinking beer yeah I'd say say so yes um so at some point did you leave CF mccarth yes and do you recall where you went following CF mcar Hillside Pub and is that in Canon as well yes and is that somewhere that you had been to before as well yes and um do you recall how you got from CF McCarthy to the hillside Ricky drove us and uh drove you in in what his truck and do you recall what kind of truck or how big the truck was or or anything like that I don't recall no Ford I believe and so Ricky's driving where is it that you and and Ryan are within sort of the cab area Ryan was sitting in the passenger seat and I was in the back seat in the back seat that you were seated in can you describe that as far as what what kind of back seat did did the back of Ricky truck have I'm sorry I can't hear you let me let me ask it a little bit better um the back of Ricky's truck where you were seated is that sort of one long seat or the cabin chairs or one long seat now you get to the hillside you know about what time it was that you arriv the hillside I don't remember and um had obviously the hillside as bar as well is that correct correct um did you have more drinks there probably yeah and um at any point in time during the course of do you recall about how long it was that you were at the hillside I don't recall no you recall about what time it was that you left left late and during the course of the time that you were at uh either CF McCarthy's or the hillside as far as um was anybody from your group as far as yourself Ryan or Ricky overly intoxicated in any way that you observ no when you went to the hillside was it just three of you again or did you meet or who if anyone else did you speak to or or meet up with we met up with friends yes and uh so a group of friends a group Y and do you know approximately how many people were in the group maybe two a couple other people and correct and when you left uh from the hillside where did you go we went to pic Julie up from her friend's house and uh the friend's house that you were going to is that someone that you knew no and is that a house that you had ever been to before no and uh as as far as sort of take Ricky's truck again correct and as far as the seating arrangements that you described earlier from see if McCarthy is the hillside what if any difference was there between Hillside and the front's house there was no difference we were sitting in the same seats and uh do you recall or do you know where now sort of that you've gone to the location do you know where where that friend's house was could you rephrase I'm sorry following leaving the hillside going to the friend's house you've never been there before correct correct and having now gone to the friend's house to pick up Julie do you know where that friend's house is to this day yes no um was it still within the town of K yes um you recall anything about the route that you took from the hillside to Julie's friend's house no all I know is that we were taking a left onto the street of the house where the house is located so as you're approaching the street where the house is located Ricky is taking a left onto the street correct and uh what if anything you recall U about that time period when Ricky's taking the left on Street could you rephrase the question um your Ricky's pulling up to the street correct uh is there a blinker or a directional that he uses prior to pulling onto the street I don't recall and you're making left hand turn is that correct correct and as is making a left-hand turn what if any other vehicles Do You observe in the area at that time there was another vehicle in front of us on the same road coming from the opposite direction and uh can you describe that vehicle in any way as far as size shape color anything not the color but it was definitely an SUV and as far as uh prior to either vehicle turning onto the road where friends lived uh what if anything did Ricky do with regard to the lights I'm sorry I can hear you um as you're pulling on to the street and the other car is coming the opposite direction what if anything did Ricky do with regard to the lights on the truck that you were the lights on the truck we were in yes well we let the the other car that was coming from the opposite direction we let them take a right on to the street first we yielded to them and yielded to them as what if anything did Ricky do to signal to that other driver that they could go ahead uh he could have flashed his lights or put his blinker on I I don't recall and from this other vehicle as far as the interior of the vehicle Azure uh yielding to this vehicle taking a right uh what if any observations did you make of of people inside that other vehicle I've noticed a male and a female in the car and uh where within the vehicle was the male and the female That You observe situated or seated in the car the female was driving and the male was in the passenger seat and then uh Beyond them being a male or female what if any other sort of observations did you make of of what they look like or anything like that no I didn't make any other observations let me ask it this way uh were they um African-American Caucasian Caucasian yeah Caucasian so Caucasian female correct Caucasian male correct and as far as age or anything like that could you tell anything in regard to that not really no And as far as your sort of uh differentiation between male versus female what if anything did You observe about them that that made you sort of characterize them that way characterize them as a male and a female yes um long hair and short hair so that vehicle pulls onto the street that you're going onto in front of you correct correct and Ricky then proceeds to make the left hand turn correct now as uh Ricky is driving down the street uh to wherever this friend's house is um where does that SUV that you observed making the turn where does that go um it was parked on the street outside a house and so as far as from the time that you're Tru go by thank you thank you both um okay so with regard to uh from the time that Ricky yields to that car coming in the opposite direction and the time that you pull up to the house was that SUV in front of uh Ricky's truck for the entire time yes um and where did that vehicle go with relation to the house that that you eventually stopped I'm not sure I understand the question did the SUV that was in front of you go to the same house yes okay and when you get to the house uh where was it that Ricky parked uh the truck in relation to the house right outside the house probably a little past the mailbox past the driveway and when you make that turn from whatever street that is onto the street where the friend's house is uh about how long down the street did you go before or Ricky pulled over in the area of that mailbox I don't know not sure and when Ricky comes to a stop in the area of that mailbox uh where is or can you describe the distance sort of between where you are in Ricky's truck and where uh the vehicle is in front of you we were parked right behind it just a couple feet maybe and during the time that you were outside of of that friend's house did that car stay still or move or something else it just stayed still so your memory is that the vehicle was essentially in the same place in front of you the entire time that you were there correct and from that sort of vantage point from behind the vehicle um Did You observe any any sort of damage or anything to the rear of the vehicle as it was in front of you I did not and at any point in time did you see anybody exit from that vehicle at any point no did you see anybody exit from that vehicle and go toward the house no now as far as when you you were pulling up to the house what was the the weather like at that point if you recall it was snowing out and uh what if anything you recall as far as sort of accumulation of that snow at that time it was a light snow but it was sticking to the ground it started to stick and as far as when you're pulling up behind that vehicle as far as behind that vehicle Did You observe any sort of marks in the snow from that vehicle no so no tire tracks or anything that you saw well tire tracks on the on the Road obviously but other than that no okay so T tire tracks on the road in behind that vehicle uh coming up to the point where it was parked correct and around that vehicle um Did You observe you never observed anybody exit the vehicle correct correct you also didn't observe any sort of footprints or anything like that in the snow around them correct now following the time that you pull up in that area of the mailbox in front of the house um who anyone came out of the house Julie did and um where did she come when she came out of the house she walked right over to Ricky's truck and um when she comes over to uh Ricky's truck who if anyone did she speak with in the truck she was speaking to all three of us and um at some point uh did she did she get in the truck and did she go home with you or no no where did she go after she left back inside the house did you see her sort of physically go back inside the house I did is that something that uh your boyfriend at the time Ryan sort of specifically waited for her to get back in the house possibly I'm not sure now as far as um if you recall when Julie came down to the truck and when Julie went back to the house did she leave footprints in the snow or anything that you could see at that time I couldn't see but I assume nothing specifically that you saw nothing specific no okay now that time period that uh Julie was at the side of Ricky's truck talking to all three of you inside about how long a period of time not long I'd say three maybe five minutes and uh in general terms what was the discussion about um you know just chitchat she invited us inside the home uh and I had told her that I did not want to go inside I was tired and it was late just wanted to get back home so she was like okay went back in and we left and when you left was that vehicle that was parked in front of you was that um in the same position as it you initially described when you left yes and you recall as far as Ricky pulling away from the curb or pulling away from the house to go home did he have to sort of back out to get around it or no I don't recall and when you left was that vehicle basically as you're pulling away that vehicle's in the same position correct correct now that vehicle that was parked in front of you was it running or could you tell I could tell that it was running yes the lights were on and which lights were on the you know headlights tail lights um the inside car lights were also on now as far as as you're pulling away um from that house and and heading off to home um which way were you facing as you came away from the house could you rephrase let me let me ask a different question so when you pull up alongside of the house um which side of Ricky's truck is is facing closer to the house is it the driver's side the passenger side or something else the passenger side and so as the vehicle is is pulling away are you pulling away in the same direction correct the passenger hi passenger side excuse me still facing the house as you're pulling away yes and you were looking as let me ask you this as far as when Julie left the truck and went back in the house was she fully inside the house at the time that the truck was pulling away yes um and so when the truck is pulling away where are you facing and sort of what what are you looking at as you are passing by the house and passing by the SUV I was looking at out the passenger side window so facing the house and as you go past the SUV what if anything did You observe within the SUV I observed the female in the driver's seat and uh appear to be the same female that you observed as you were turning onto the road of of Julie's friend's house correct and what if anything did You observe the female in the uh where was she in the vehicle the driver's side so still in the driver seat as you had observed earlier correct and uh what if anything else could you see as far as the driver as far as what was she doing or or anything like that I didn't observe anything else she was just sitting there and as far as as you were passing uh what if anything did you note as far as the uh sort of interior lighting within the vehicle yes the interior lighting was on so that's why I had noticed as we were pulling away the female in the driver's side driver seat as far as the male passenger that you saw uh as you were pulling onto the street could you see him at that point I did not see any other any other person just the female in the driver's seat and as you're passing by the vehicle did you adjust your I mean how intently were you looking inside the not very intently just kind of as we were passing by you didn't sort of change your positioning to see better within the vehicle you didn't Lean Forward lean back or anything anything like that no and after you um after you left that house where did you go from there back to Ryan's is that where you spent the night correct I may have a moment okay do you know about what time it was that you got home I don't recall and by home I mean back to back to R ran no I don't remember just one moment okay thank you ma'am I have no further questions for this witness your May yes thank you hello Miss Maxon hello uh the first time you were ever interviewed about this case uh by law enforcement was September 1st 2023 is that right correct so you were not interviewed at or around February 7th when Ryan was Interview no February 7th 2022 right all right no um so it was a the full 19 months after the events in question that you were first contacted by law enforcement correct and you gave your statement for the first time at that point correct um the truck that you were in that was did you I can't remember did you say the name of the truck was it a Ford F-150 correct okay um that was turning left onto Fairview from Cedar Crest you recall that correct yes do do you know the names of the streets or you just I don't know the names of the streets no yeah I'm not familiar with the town of can so if I okay that was my next question if I showed you a map for instance that wouldn't really do any good because you don't know the the street names yeah no okay fair enough Ricky was driving Ryan was in the front passer seat and you were in the Super Cab portion of the truck correct correct so you would have been situated directly behind Ryan I was in the middle in the middle seat correct so it's was in between Ryan and Ricky understood um did you indicate that at some point you could see pretty clearly into the SUV as it turned as yall yielded way and and it turned it would be its right in front of you correct and you could clearly see inside the passenger compartment there was a female driving is that right correct and there was a male sitting next to her yes um you indicated that by the time you guys negotiated your turn sped up made the turn headed up Fair View that SUV had already come to a stop correct all right and how far behind that SUV would you estimate Ricky pulled the truck in terms of car lengths one car length two car lengths right on the bumper yeah less than one car length I sorry I would say a couple feet couple feet meaning 2 or 3 feet Yes uh so that's your recollection as you sit here corre did you notice anything wrong with the the back of the SUV I did not okay you saw brake lights on yeah um how many brake lights two uh left right correct correct y was there one in the top Center I don't recall okay um you certainly did not see a full-sized Jeep Wrangler outfitted with a snowplow between the SUV and Ricky's truck I did not sounds like a ridiculous question you didn't see any other car there were no other cars between the two of them correct is it fair to say that when you pulled up um behind the SUV other than noting that it was there your attention was not necessarily focused on that SUV correct there's nothing extraordinary or out of the ordinary about that car correct you were there to pick up somebody cor or at least potentially right so I'm guessing your focus would probably be to the right where the front doors were of that house sure and uh you knew that Ryan had been communicating with his sister and so you were sort of expectant in terms of watching Julie Nagel possibly come out of the house correct so during those moments you weren't necessarily paying attention to what was happening directly in front of you outside right okay you indicated that you believe that the chitchat uh that happened with Julie Nagel up at the the truck was about five minutes give or take okay um at that point was one of the doors opened I don't believe so I think we rolled our windows down okay to communicate I'm so sorry I we rolled our windows down to communicate with Julie okay so you don't recall one of the doors being opened and and Julie standing in the crook of the door having this conversation with Ryan I don't recall okay um is that possible sure possible okay your memory is not necessarily focused on that right but you do know there was a communication yes for sure they were talking about whether or not you go inside the house all three of us okay uh you Ricky and Ryan yes and y'all were talking about whether or not Julie was going to come with y'all is that right correct um and there was even a discussion about whether or not Julie's mom might pick her up I don't recall okay uh so the specifics of the conversation you don't necessarily recall but you do know that y'all talked about five minutes give or take yes okay um during the course of that five minute conversation where was your focus Andrei okay um ultimately the three of you did pull away from the uh the driveway area where you were parked could you rephrase sure ultimately y'all did move the the truck did move past the the house and and moved past the SUV once we left yes as you drove by the SUV you noticed that the dome light was on could you explain the Dome what that means light the interior light yes Dome yes yeah so you could see it lit up the interior of the car correct it was a late model SUV probably a pretty bright light you could see inside the car I could you clearly could see well you could see a female correct by the way do you know do you recognize the person to my left I I do but only because of that's that was a terrible question of course you did do you recognize her from that night is she the person that was in the driver's seat or do you know I don't know okay but the person you did see was a Caucasian female with long hair correct okay um as you drove by the interior light was on well enough that you could see her you could see the female clearly correct and you could also see that there was no male in the in the truck as well correct I I don't know I the other male that I saw in the SUV before they pulled on to Fair View right I he could have been in when it was parked but I only the only person I saw as we were pulling away was the female driver so when you pulled away you look to your right out your pass your window correct correct the interior dome light was on yes and you've testified to this before correct correct about you've been asked these questions in another Cy incorrect correct and you testified the only person you saw in that in the interior of that car at that time when yall pulled away was the female okay is that right um sure if I remember correctly okay that's all I have Mr L so miss Maxton during the time that you uh were asked about not sort of focusing on the SUV in front of you fair to say that you would have seen a six- foot man walking away from that car going towards the house correct okay you were in a vantage point where you would have seen that had that occurred correct correct and you didn't see that I did not okay nothing further on all right so you are all set Miss Maxon okay thank you your next witness Mr L uh yes R the call all to call uh Ricky uh dantono it's bound to mess it up you saw with I cour jury the case down here and she the truth the whole truth and nothing about the truth so help you I do thank you whenever you're ready Mr L good morning SEC good morning excuse me uh could you uh please state your name and spell your last name to Richard Deano D Apostrophe a NT uo n o and Mr Deano uh where do you live in Canton and how long have you lived with you uh my whole life 30 30 years and uh do you work sir I do what do you do for work I do flooring how long have you uh been doing that I'd say two years now sir if I could turn your attention to the evening of January 28th into the early morning of uh January 29th uh 2022 do you recall those days uh yeah do you recall what days of the week those were uh the weekend and do you recall whether or not you worked that day I don't and at some point in time on that day did you go out for the evening leave your house and go somewhere yes and uh did you drive from your house to wherever you went yes and uh what kind of car do you have at that time a pickup truck and uh specifically what kind of pickup truck uh Ford F150 and uh what color was that dark gray and the interior of your pickup truck um as far as front seat back seat can you describe for the jury what that look like um there's two front seats and a bench seat in the back uh it has the suicide doors and when you left your house uh in your F-150 where did you initially go I went to a place in can called CF McCarthy's and did you pick up anyone on the way there I I did not I met people there and uh CF McCarthy is that's the place that you've been to before is that correct correct familiar with it on that night yeah where did you park your truck in relation to CF mcar um I wouldn't know that for sure is there a Walgreens log somewhere around there yeah right AC normally where we would but normally when you went there that's sort of where you would have parked in relation to the usually yeah um so CF McCarthy is located on Washington Street is that right yes sort of in the downtown section yep and uh when you say where we would have parted so if anyone were you meeting at CF McCarthy on that I was meeting Ryan and Heather and just be clear talking about Ryan Nagel and Heather Maxon correct and how did you know Ryan Nel I grew up with Ryan so I've known him for a long time and how would you sort of describe the two of yours relationship uh best friends and Heather Maxon how did you know her um through Ryan they were dating and do you know about how long they had been dating coming into sort of that time frame of that evening I I don't not an exact time and um so you come in to see if McCarthy and your call sort of where within the establishment you went um probably sat at the bar I would assume and when you went there that evening do you recall um did you mean anybody else there or was it just you Mr Nel and miss Ma I can really only recall us three I mean there might have been people there but we didn't meet up with them they might have just been there already so no one specifically you had plans to meet with while you were there or anything like no know about what time it was that you got to see if not a definite time but maybe mid after afternoon and um as far as you went out to a bar as do you recall um sort of what either you Ryan or or Miss Maxon had to drink that evening um usually just a few beers is all we would drink nothing nothing else but that and uh did you have any drinks that evening I had a few yep and what what was it typically that you drank a beer any particular kind of beer uh I would assume Bud Lights I guess now um do you know about how long it was that you were at CF m not an exact time again but a couple hours and uh after that couple hours or so where did you go from we went to another place in Canon called Hillside and just to be clear when you say we you mean yourself Mr Nel and Miss Maxim yeah I drove us three okay so you drove all three of you in in your F-150 pickup yes and about how long ride is that from CF McCarthy to the Hills uh I'd say 10 and uh just to be clear 10 minutes is that right yeah 10 minutes yes um is that also within campon too yep is that somewhere that you had been before some somewhere that you were familiar with yeah and um similar to CF McCarthy is when you arrived there as far as uh was there anybody else that you were meeting there or why did you go to the hillside uh we met up with our one friend John uh so adding sort of just another person to the group and going to a different location is that correct yeah now as far as over the course of the evening either at CF McCarthy's or the hillside as far as yourself uh Mr Nagel and Miss Maxon uh what if any observations did you make as far as level of intoxication was anybody overly intoxicated no and uh if you know about how long a time period you at uh the hillside um I would say a few hours again anything either from CF McCarthy's or the hillside from that evening that sort of jumps out at you in any particular way no uh so relatively regular sort of weekend night out with you and your friends correct um when you left the hillside do you know about what time that was um again not a definite time maybe around midnight and when you left the hillside where was it that you were going to pick up uh Ryan's sister Julie and if you know how did that sort of come about as far as when did you become aware that that was a destination that you would be going to I would say towards the end of the night I was told that we would be giving her a ride on our way home and so you leave the hillside you get into your pickup is that right yep and I miss Mr Nagel and Miss Maxon are with you correct and where were they seated within the pickup when you were driving Ryan was in my passenger seat and Heather was in the back and you recall sort of how she was positioned in the back as far as on passenger side the middle or the driver side um not specifically I vaguely remember her maybe laying down and um when you're going from the hillside to pick up uh Julie Nagel you knew Julie Nagel at the time is that right correct um did you know the location uh where you were going to pick her up from not the exact location but the area and by area sort of what was described to you as as where to drive I believe towards the Kennedy School and the Kennedy School is is that an elementary school uh yeah you're familiar with that as growing up in the town of can yep and so if you could describe to the jury sort of the route that you would have taken going from the hillside to uh the Kennedy School or in that general area yeah I would have taken 138 which is I believe Turnpike Street a right onto Washington Street and then a right onto Dam Street and then a left onto cedarest and I believe a left onto Fair viiew and those last couple of turns that you took as far as the left was that something that you knew ahead of time or was someone was in the truck dirting you how uh I knew up until cedarest and then who was directing you from I believe Ryan would be now when you arrive at uh taking that turn from Cedar Crest onto Fairview uh what if any other vehicles Did You observe in them in the area at that time while driving as yes while driving as you were about to make the turn no vehicles that I could recall um after making that turn onto therapy what if any Vehicles Did You observe that time there was a vehicle parked in front of me in front of the house now as far as making that turn uh you were using your directional as you're driving along taking lefts and rights I would assume so yeah and um do you assume that you turn on your left directional before pulling from C Crest on yeah and when you as far as the house that you were going to when you make that turn from SE to Crest onto Fairview how far into the street uh was the house that you were going to [Music] um like 20 seconds maybe I don't what I'm asking is basically was it the first house uh as you come in or did you drive the whole street in order to get to the house how close to the Cedar Crest was the house I think it's a couple houses on the right so there couple houses on the right hand side yeah okay so the right hand side from your perspective would be the passenger side or the driver's side or what the the passenger side and when you get in the area of the house um you park at some point yes and where was it in relation to the house that you parked the truck right in front of the driveway now you mentioned that there was another vehicle that was parked in front of the house as well is that correct correct where was that vehicle in relation to where you parked I would say maybe 10 20 yards in front of me and so from the 10 20 yards or so in front of you um you could observe that vehicle I could and from your vantage point where you uh seated in your truck behind the vehicle um what if any damage or anything did You observe to the vehicle at that time none and as far as you could tell was the vehicle uh running or off or something I believe running and what about your observations of the vehicle leads you to believe that it was it was running they were either tail lights or brake lights I'm not sure which ones so I'm sorry if you could just repeat that it was either tail lights or brake lights but I'm not sure which ones they were and that was on the back of the vehicle is that right correct and how many sort of brake lights Did You observe on the vehicle I would assume to the left and right did you observe anything sort of in the middle of the vehicle and during the time that you were behind this vehicle um at any point in time did you observe anybody get out of the I did not and from where you were situated behind the vehicle at this initial sort of point when you pull up about 20 or so yards behind it um could you see any lights on inside of the vehicle I could not now when you you arrive at the house and park sort of in the area of the driveway at some point does Ryan reach out to his sister Julie I believe so and uh at some point does Julie come out of the house yes and if you know about how long a period of time we talking about from the time that you pull up in park and the time that Julie comes out of the house U very quickly and when she comes out of the house where is it that she comes to to my passenger window now as far as at this time that you had left the Hillside and you're driving over to um your friends sister's friend's house um what do you recall about sort of the weather and what what was it doing at that I believe it just started to snow and as far as the snow was concerned what if any observations did you make as far as accumulation was concerned uh I believe it was starting to stick now as far as that vehicle that was in front of you uh what if anything did You observe uh within the snow on the street that was starting to stick um in behind that vehicle I didn't I didn't observe it did you see any tire marks or anything like that leading up to the back of the vehicle not that I could remember not that you now when Julie came out of the house she obviously she walked on foot from the house with the truck correct correct and as far as from her path either to the truck or back from the truck to the house did you observe any sort of footprints or anything like that she left in the snow while she was walking no now when she comes to the truck you recall how it was uh you obviously there's some conversation correct correct and prior to her coming up to the truck um was there music on radio on anything like that maybe while driving there but I don't believe while we talked so that would have been something somebody would have turned down in order to have a conversation with when she comes up to the truck correct and when she comes up to the side of the truck do you remember how it was that you uh conversed uh or anyone in the vehicle conversed with her was it uh through the door through a window through the open passenger window um you call whether or not the passenger side door of the the truck was opened at any time by Ryan or anybody else nope you don't recall or it wasn't I don't believe it was now in your truck when you open the passenger side door uh what if anything occurs with regard to the lighting with inside the the truck I believe the interior light would pop on and where would that interior light be within within relation to sort of the Interior is that in driver side passenger side Center or something I think Center Center roof now the conversation uh with Julie um about how long did that take place or how long did that go on I would say maybe two minutes and if you recall just in general terms what was sort of the discussion about that she no longer was going to take the ride and asked if we wanted to come in and did yourself or anybody else from your group uh express any interest in in going in this house no And as far as you were aware were there other arrangements uh that that m Sagle and Julie had made uh for getting home that night I wasn't aware of her arrangement of getting home now um so she leaves and she goes back to the house is that right correct and with when in relation to when you left had she already gone back inside the house did you see her go in the house I did not watch her go back inside and when you um are leaving from uh this this house onfair VI you um again your passenger side is what's most directly facing the house is that right correct the vehicle that was in front of you that's facing the same direction is that correct correct so the passenger side of that vehicle would also be facing towards the house correct correct and when you pulled away from the curve um do you recall whether or not you had to uh sort of back up uh in order to pull around it or not I did not have to back up now while you were um so you just sort of pull away from the curve is that Cor correct correct so when you're behind this vehicle um did the vehicle stay sort of stagnant in the same place or did it move or or what if anything did You observe as far as that vehicle in Fr uh it might be guessing at the time but I would believe it stayed where it was so do you recall anything so you don't recall anything specific about that vehicle movement I do not and as far as um the vehicle itself uh Did You observe anything about sort of the the occupants of the vehicle or anything like that I did not um now as you're pulling away from the vehicle where was your attention sort of focused as you were pulling away I believe my side view mirror and then on the road you're looking in your side view mirror to see if there's any other vehicles coming up on your left correct correct and then you're looking at through the windshield because you're driving car correct correct and uh at any point in time that you uh were outside of that residence um at any point uh Did You observe anybody get up out of that vehicle or exit that vehicle or go toward the house from that vehicle or come from the house toward that vehicle I don't believe so just one moment John okay actually before let me just ask you a couple questions with the Court's permission if I could uh publish uh just a couple of photographs for this witnessing for okay uh Mr Gilman if I could have exhibit number 71 sir I'm going to ask you a couple questions about uh the photograph that's up on the screen but first what I want to draw your attention to is on the desk in front of you is a laser pointer um right yes um if you just press that button and point it in direction it'll it'll shine GRE okay um so with respect to the photograph exib 71 that's up on the screen do you recognize what's depicted in that photograph uh 34 fair viiew is that the house of Julie's friend that she went to potentially go pick her up and eventually she went back to correct and within this particular photograph you see the area where you had parked your truck uh during this time that you talking about new I do and if you could using that laser point just direct the jury's attention where in the photograph uh right in front of the driveway right there now also within this Photograph you see the general area where you observed that SUV in front of you while you were out um I would say if I had to guess I would say maybe half of the vehicle so it's probably a little bit further toward the left of this phot correct correct if I could have exhibit number 72 again do you recognize what's up on screen I do and this is the same house that we were talking about the last exhibit correct so from this Photograph you uh see the area where you observe the SUV in relation to your truck that evening that you were parked out in front of the house I believe so yeah and again if you could sir using the laser point you have for you direct the jury's attention where about that like right around that I'd say than you can take that down thank you very much just one moment joh okay thank you sir nothing further for this witness cross examination thank you good afternoon sir good afternoon so you were driving the vehicle that arrived at 34 Fair viiew uh to pick up Ryan Nagel's sister Julie correct correct and you would met Julie prior to that date obviously correct correct You' been over the Nagle home several times since uh the two of you had met years and years ago correct correct this was your best friend's sister correct correct uh do you recall about what time it was that you got there not the exact time approximate I would say around midnight and uh you now know as you testify here today that uh you were outside the residence in back of a black SUV that was driven by count and read correct I do not know that based off my knowledge not your personal knowledge but you now know it's pretty much common knowledge correct I guess so and in fact that black SUV was parked directly in front of yours in front of the front lawn of 34 Fairview Road correct correct and while you were there you never observed that black SUV strike anyone correct correct you never heard any arguing outside of the residents of 34 Fair correct correct and possessing that information as you did on January 29th were you interviewed by any State Police investigator regarding this case on January 29th on that day right no what about the next day or the rest of January or any day in February of 2022 did the state police come to interview you about the information that you had as the driver of that vehicle No in fact isn't it true that no investigator from the state police or the District Attorney's Office interviewed you any time during the entire year of 2022 correct and that the first time you spoke to any official it was not from the District Attorney's office and not from the defense in this case correct sustained you can word this differently Mr okay uh the first time you gave a statement to anyone it was not Mr L or the state police and it was not the defense in this case correct correct and that was on May 16th of 2023 the which which time would that be first time you gave a statement sir May 16th of 2023 does that sound correct around that time it would be okay and you know today is May 15th 2024 right yeah so just about a year ago was the first time that you gave any statement about your memory of what occurred on January 29th of 2022 correct correct and you would agree with me that your memory of what occurred on January 29 was the freshest when you got up that day later that morning correct the next morning after the 29th yes correct right uh and you'd agree with me that uh you know your memory would have remained fresh for a period of time correct correct and you would agree with me that over time your memory becomes less fresh right I would agree and it's not just you it's everybody correct correct jaction let's move on from this sure uh and you were first asked about your memory uh about well was clearly over a year after January 29th I suppose February March April February March April May maybe about 16 months after the events that you were asked to describe right correct and then it was only after you talked to someone else again not the prosecution or the defense Jackson your honor why don't I see it sidebar just so we don't keep getting interrupted here e e e um so I was just going to ask you the the first time that you were approached by the state police regarding this case was uh September 2nd of 2023 correct around that time correct yeah right um and that would have been 5 months after the first time you were approached and it would have been about 21 months after January 29th of 2022 correct all right now uh you drove your own Ford F-150 to 34 Fairview correct correct and the plan was to again to pick up Brian's sister Julie correct correct and the entire time you were in the car uh from when you left to go to 34 Fairview until you're now leaving 34 fair viiew to go home uh that driving Arrangement was the same in other words you in the driver's seat ran in the front passenger seat and Heather in the back correct correct do you recall whether Heather was uh behind the passenger Ryan when she was sitting in the back I do not recall you don't recall where she was in that back cap no uh you do recall that when well strike that as you're approaching the residence you don't have a memory of coming face to face with a black SUV or any other vehicle correct correct um you're not saying it didn't happen you just don't recall that correct correct and in any case your memory uh your best memory is that when you got there the black SUV and by the way I don't want to put words in your mouth do you recall it as a black SUV or I do okay um when you when you got there your best memory is that the black SUV was already parked outside the residence correct correct and it was facing in the same direction that you were facing as you approached the residence yes uh which means and you're from Canton correct correct you came from the cedarest side and you were facing toward the Chapman Street side correct correct same with the black SUV correct and it appeared to be Pro uh parked properly next to the property correct mine no the black SUV yeah it wasn't parked at some crazy angle correct correct uh it it didn't appear to a struck anything on the side of the road when it was parked right correct there was nothing unusual about the way it was parked no and uh when it was parked out there and you approached the residence uh is it fair to say that there was far less snow on the ground than what we saw in exhibits 71 and 72 that were shown to you by Mr L on direct examination correct uh those photographs appeared to been taken after the snowstorm correct at some point I would assume yeah because there's a decent amount of snow on the ground there correct correct but as you're pulling up to the house uh it had only started snowing around that time I would say there was a dusting on the on the lawn yeah so it it was starting to accumulate but there weren't inches and inches of snow correct correct and your best memory is that uh the SUV was about 20 yard in front of you give or take yeah uh in terms of uh just to get your estimation of what 20 yards is would it have been uh farther than where you are now to where the court officer is standing behind the jury box or is that a good approximation to the best of my knowledge I would say maybe a little further little further maybe uh and there was nothing obstructing your view as you sat in the driver's seat of your Ford F-150 of the back of that black SUV correct correct you did not see uh for instance a Jeep with a snow plow on the front parked in between you I did not and in fact you didn't see a Jeep with a snowplow park anywhere on the property that you recall correct to the best of my knowledge now and you didn't see any other vehicles parked along the property line other than yourself and the black SUV correct correct when you first pulled up do you recall if and I I I know these these questions are somewhat unfair because we're talking about two and a half years later uh but when you first pulled up do you recall whether the uh red tail lights of the black SUV were lit up I would say to signal that the car was on yes I don't know if they were brake light or just normal tail light gotta okay uh and so you're surmising that some lights had to be be on because your memory is that car was M correct and uh with regard to the lighting in that area did you have your headlights on when you were out there I believe so I don't think I don't think I would have shut them off right you would have been driving with your headlights on as you were going down Cedar Crest and taking a left on to correct correct and your your car was still running when you pulled up to the house and parked correct correct and you would have left it running because your intention was or your your expectation was that Julie Nagel was going to get in your car correct correct that was the whole reason you were there correct and your expectation was that there didn't need to be a tremendously long discussion when Julie came out of the house right you expected her to just jump in the vehicle correct correct so that's why you say that there would have been no reason to turn your tail lights I'm sorry your headlights off correct correct all right so your headlights being on they would have been uh focused really in right on the rear of that black SUV that was in front of you correct I would assume so yeah because there was nothing to block your view of the black SUV right correct and you did not notice any uh broken tail light to that SUV correct to the best of my knowledge but I didn't analyze it sure uh it didn't stand out to you that to say or to make a mental note hey that tail light's broken correct correct uh and you didn't see any damage at all to the vehicle that you noticed correct to the best of my knowledge and with regard to when Julie came out of the house when you pulled up and parked you know sort of perpendicular to the driveway and that's an accurate way to portray it correct um you believe that it took Julie uh how long to come out of the house I would guess under a minute under a minute uh and then after that under a minute span of time she then had to walk from the front door of the house one of the front doors of the house to your vehicle correct correct and by the way did you notice that there were two front doors to the house at that time at the time no um do you recall if she came out the door that was more in the middle of the house or more over toward the driveway do you remember memory that I don't I would be guessing if I did and the uh because the snow had started to slip I'm sorry stick a little bit um she wasn't running to the vehicle correct I would assume not all right so it took her some time to get out of the house and get to the vehicle correct correct uh and then there was a conversation about whether she was going to come with you or not correct correct that occurred through one of the passenger Windows being open correct and who was involved in that conversation I can't remember exactly but I would assume maybe me and Ryan okay uh and there was a back and forth about whether she was going to come or you were going to stay and go inside correct um a back and forth it was more just did you guys want to come in no not really back and forth okay all right took a few minutes for her to decide well I'm just going to go back inside the house uh if that a minute or two um and from the moment that you parked the vehicle outside that residence uh your initial attention it's fair would have been on the front of the residence to see when Julie was going to come up correct I don't believe I was looking okay uh were where were you looking when you were waiting for her did you have a phone I don't remember exactly but I had my phone I could have looked at it okay you could have been like as many people do when you're waiting for somebody you just take out your phone and start scrolling on something objection do you know if you were doing that sir I can't recall but I wouldn't rule it out uh and uh you know you would [Music] mention you had mentioned earlier that when uh when I asked you about the damage to the rear of the vehicle that you know your your attention wasn't just focused on studying that vehicle correct correct and it's fair to say that from the moment that you pulled up to Julie coming out of the house to Julie walking to the car to the conversation between you know you and Ryan and Julie uh you were not monitoring what was going on inside or outside that black SUV correct correct and during that span of time again while you showed up there waiting for Julie she comes out eventually she walks to the car you talk to her uh you were not paying attention to who if anybody was inside the black SUV at that time correct correct and you were not paying attention to whether uh anybody got out of the vehicle during that time correct correct and then ultimately you were going home the night was over correct correct and in order to go home your plan was to keep going up Fair View Road toward Chapman Street correct correct and in order to do that that would have meant that you passed the black SUV that had been in front of you correct correct and at that time as you're passing the black sup do you recall whether or not it was an interior light on within the cab of that SUV I do not all right um were you curious at all who was inside that SUV given that it pulled up to the same house that you pulled up to not at all you were concentrated more on the road correct and as far as you were concerned your night was over time to go home correct correct all right but it's fair to say that uh at no point in time from the first time you saw that SUV until you're leaving it did you see anybody in the pass front passenger seat of the SUV correct I didn't look inside the SUV right so you didn't see anybody in the front passeng no I didn't look uh you also didn't notice at any point anybody standing outside that SUV not to my knowledge and you never saw anybody sitting in the snow or in the street or on the lawn outside the SUV not to my knowledge and you never saw any anybody lying outside that SUV is that fair to say yes have moment yes no further questions thank you sir anything Mr just briefly um sir so from the time that you were in front of the house until you left you never saw anyone go in or out of that uh house or in and out of that vehicle the black SUV in front of you correct correct okay and uh while you were not monitoring uh the activity around the SUV you never saw anyone around the SUV correct correct and fair to say that if a 6-foot uh man had walked from the SUV to the house is that something that you think you would have seen nothing further on you are thank you guys right your next uh yes you're on the call the call U Miss Allison McCabe just watch your step for me remain s and face do you with the EV give the court and jury the case down here the truth the all truth and nothing but the truth so I do thank you whenever you're ready Mr L thank you uh good afternoon good afternoon could you uh please state your name and spell your last name for the Ali mcab MCC AB and uh where do you live man um Canton and how long have you lived in Canton um basically my whole life except first few months I lived in Sten and um do you work do you go to school I'm a student uh in college is that correct yes and what year are you in in college um I just finished my sophomore year and when living in Kon who if anyone do you live in Kon um my two parents and my three sisters um so you're one of four uh girls is that correct correct and uh are you the oldest yes and your parents what are their names um Matt and Jen um if I could uh turn your attention to January 28th into January 29th 2022 you recall those days yes and uh do you recall what days of the week those was um Friday and Saturday I believe and so on that Friday evening starting with there um well let me ask you this first at that time uh you were a high school student is that correct correct and where did you go to High School Canton High School um all four years yes and did you play any sports when you were at Canon High School yes and what sports did you play um soccer hockey and Lacrosse and uh so January that would have been in which sport season hockey season now with respect uh to the hockey uh as far as that evening of the8th U how did your evening start out or what if anything were you doing first that evening um it started with a team dinner at my house um the hockey team came over we had dinner um then I went to my sister's basketball game at the high can't High School um then I was hanging out with two of my friends we were driving around um then the the night ended with me driving Colin Albert home and so let me start sort of back at the beginning uh before we go all the way through so as far as um the team dinner is that something that was like a weekly thing yeah it was usually like the night before game and sort of rotated between different players houses correct so where was it on that particular that night it was at my house and about what time did the did the team get done or what time did that wind down and you went to the basketball game I'm not exactly sure the basketball games typically start around 6:30 so assume around then and uh who if anyone from your family was involved in the basketball game um my younger sister and was she JV Varsity what was she playing on at that time um varsity and uh who if anyone else from your family was was that basketall my parents I'm not sure about my sisters and did you go with your parents or separately or how did you get um I believe I drove and I arrived later than my parents and as far as at that time uh um did you have your own car yes and what kind of car did you have um a little Ford Fusion blue and when you arrive there um you're a high school senior correct correct do you sit with your parents during the game no um there's sort of like a student section is that correct correct so you sat there with your friends yes and when the game gets over where was it that you went um I believe I was just driving around with two of my friends and then we as we were driving we came across a dog on the side of the street we knew a snowstorm was coming um so we picked the dog up and then D brought it to the police station and then drove the dog back to where its owner's house and so just as far as the that you were driving around with what are their names um Avery panad DOI and Danielle Sean can you do us a favor and spell those last names for ourt reporter please um p i a n t e d o s i in the second name um s Danielle Sean s EA M an thank you than and those were friends of yours uh from school from K High school as well yes and had they been with you at the game previously um yes I believe so um so you when you say drove around uh where whereabouts were you driving from um through Canton pretty aimlessly just driving and at some point you come upon a dog is that correct correct and uh where was that um on Elm Street and um this was a dog obviously unfamiliar to you is that correct yes what did you do with the dog um we the dog ran over to the car when we stopped and picked the dog up and we didn't really know what to do with it so we brought it to the police station you recall at all what kind of what kind of dog it was no white it was small it was white and white and brown not charot type and so while you're at the police station what if anything did you learn about that dog that you were brought to the police station um I brought the or I went in the police station the dog stayed in the car with one of my friends and um as I was walking in and telling the officer that I found a dog he got a call from the owner and she asked if she was like oh can you return my dog please and so you brought the dog back to the owner yes you know about what time all of that was going on I'm not ex I'm not sure now um you mentioned that you had um picked up uh a person by the name of Colin Albert is that right correct and uh who was Colin Albert to you or or could you describe to the jury sort of your relationship with Colin um I've known Colin since I've been born um our families are very close we went to high school together school together growing up um in the same friend group so yeah we're we're very close so he was in the same grade as you was at right correct he was a senior at this time as well yes and uh you have friends mutual friends together yes now the two of you are not actually sort of blood related is that correct correct um but you have sort of relatives in common is that correct yes and to that point as far as uh when uh he reached out to you let me ask you this how is it that you came to to come by and sort of pick him up on that even um he texted me and was asking for a ride and then I responded drove and got him texted him when I arrived now as far as um that sort of I don't know what exactly to call it but as far as um you picking him up at at certain places like on weekend nights is that was that out of the realm of of normaly or was that something that happens on occasion no that's that's common he knew I was driving that night so it's pretty common our friends we always just drive each other around and stuff and without getting too much into it as far as high school was concerned particularly when someone was drinking would would they call and ask for a run correct yes rather than driving your own car yes and as far as you knew was Colin drinking at least at some point during that yes is that why you needed to ride yes okay and with respect um to your parents um did you around this time that you're driving around and you're going to pick up Colin did you have any idea where parents were what they were doing um I knew they were going out after the basketball game but no I didn't know I have their life 360 they have mine so I didn't I wasn't sure though and as far as the Life 360 goes is that something that uh that you sort of keep track of them or they keep track of you it's more them keeping track of me um now you know approximately what time it was that you uh you first get sort of a call and reaches out ATT text to to pick him up um I believe it was around midnight not exactly what cha but around midnight and uh did you know where he was when he asked you to pick him up um yes the Albert's house 34 Fairview and is that a house that you're familiar with yes and what if any relationship do you have to the people that live at the Albert um my aunt and uncle and my cousins so Brian Albert is your uncle correct correct Albert is your your aunt correct how is how is she your on your father's side your mother's side um my mother's sister and um Colin Albert obviously last name Albert he's related to people at Fairview as well correct but sort of on the other side of the family correct and do you know uh what as far as your conversation with Colin do you know why he was over that house that night um it was Brian little Brian's birthday so he had gone over for that purpose and you went by to pick up yes and uh do you recall where you were or sort of who you were with when you first get that um text or communication from calling to pick them up um yes I was at another friend's house after I drove Avery and Danielle home I went somewhere else you drove the two friends that you were with earlier home and then you went somewhere else yes I believe yes at that point did you get a text and call yes now do you recall whether or not the information that you had as to where Colin was that night is that something that came via text as well or was that a phone call or some other type of communication um I knew I knew he was there could have been a phone call I'm not sure so were there a variety of different ways that you would have communicated with Colin around that time yes there's other apps as well yes um I'm sorry you said through apps as well yes what kind of apps um for example like Snapchat so you add each other sort of Snapchat information phone number information call text snap could have been any of those three yes now when you um get that communication from him to come pick him up um um about how long a period of time was it from the time that you get the text from call to the time that you arrive in the area I'm not sure and uh you're familiar with that that home at 34 Fairview right correct place you've been to countless time for is you're related to the people that don't correct and you recall um from where you were coming from uh as far as how did you come to Fairview would that have been on the the Chapman side or the cedarest side or how did you come I don't remember and when you get to the home um you obviously park at some point correct correct and uh where in relation to the house did you I believe in the driveway on the left side not entirely sure I just believe that and when you arrive uh what if any communication did you send to call um I texted him saying here and after you texted that to Paul and he comes out of the house is that correct correct and when he comes out of the house about how long a period of time was it from the time that you text him here to the time that he comes out to the car I'm not sure few minutes and in the area around the time that you uh arrive on on Fair viiew roads uh what if anything you recall in regard to the weather or what what was it doing exactly um I believe it was starting to snow nothing crazy um as far as accumulation what if anything did You observe U at that time lights on in the house that's it um as far as the snow was concerned was it starting to sort of stick to the ground I don't remember so you text Colin uh shortly there after he comes out is that right correct you recall um you're familiar obviously as a as you a couple times now with the house uh there were two doors in the front of the house is that right yes and do you know which are the two doors Colin came out of um no I'm not sure and when he came down he came over to the car correct yes and you're in the driveway yes and gets into what part of the car front passenger seat yes I believe and from the time that you uh so when you leave from there where is it that you went um his house and then my house you dropped him off at his house and then you went home correct okay Mr L we're actually going to break here we have to break a little bit early but we'll be back at 2 okay so um going ask you to sit in your seat let the jurors go out first and then M you can call thank you yeah goodbye follow me all right we'll be back at 2 e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e this all right could we have Miss M please [Music] [Music] and I will remind you you're still under roath all right Mr L whenever you're ready thank you uh now miss m Kate um if I could take you back just to uh a little bit from where we had left off um when you arrived at The Residence at 34 Fairview Road uh you pulled into the driveway is that correct I believe so and obviously on that date you were familiar with the types of vehicles that your parents drove yes and did you see any of your parents vehicles at the home when you pulled in and parked in the driveway no and when you got to the house at any point uh did you exit the car or go inside the house no uh so you texted him then you were there you stayed in the car and he came out yes and when uh Colin came out to the car um what if any observations did you make of him uh in regard to his sobriety as far as uh what if any observations did you make in respect to that normal didn't seem overly intoxicated to you no and um as far as his face or features or from whatever you could see what if any injuries Did You observe on colum when he came out none and how would you describe his uh demeanor when he came out and he got into the normal now during the course uh you drove from the Fairview home to Colin's house is that right yes and uh where was Colin living at that point um I I don't know the address but um his new house not the old not the one where he was neighbors with John the newer house and uh if you could just generally speaking where was that in relation to the town of cany what what was it um it's in the center of town close to the library and do you recall or do you know what type of residence that is um yes it's like uh condos I'm not sure exactly but yeah town houses as far as your drive from the residence in fairv view to Colin's house um did you make any stops along the way no about how long a drive is it from Fairview to's new 7 Minutes 5 minutes and when you arrive there um what did You observe calling to um got of the car went went inside got the key locked it went inside and is that something as far as did you wait for him to get inside yes and why was it um I always wait for him because it's like how he he has to get open the first door to get inside so I usually just wait for everyone to get inside and during the car ride from Fairview to uh Colin's house do you recall anything specific about did you have a conversation with him probably I don't remember what we were talking about and then following that where did you go um I believe home and when you got home were either of your your parents home at that point no you know about what time it was that you got not exactly I would estimate a little bit before 12:30 around that time and did any point in time over the rest of the course of that evening did you um see your parents did you talk to your parents or anything like that um I know I talked to my dad on the phone when we found the dog other than that now and so after your return home when you went to bed or you went to to sleep were your parents home at that point no about how much time was it between the time when you got home around 12:30 or so and when you went to sleep not long I I don't know now turning your attention to the following day at some point you woke up correct yes and were your parents home at that one yes and were both of your parents home with that one yes you know about what time it was that you woke up next no I do not now Mr M at some point um in August of 2023 did you have occasion to meet with uh some troopers from the state police um yes I believe I'm not sure what time but on on a zoom and was that one Trooper or more than one Trooper or something I believe two I'm not sure you recall any of the names of any of those Troopers um Yuri maybe was one of them I'm not sure sorry and now ma'am following that meeting that you had uh with troop from the state police what if anything did you provide uh to them from your phone um text messages with Colin maybe pictures I don't know defin definitely the text messages and before we get to that just as far as uh your phone what kind of phone did you have at that time um I believe an i iPhone 14 pro Max maybe I should have been more specific as far as the time but the iPhone you're talking about as far as the pro Max was that January of 2022 or in SE uh August of 2022 that was in August and between January of 2022 and August of 2023 um did you have the same phone throughout that time period I'm not sure I believe I upgraded um yeah and when you upgraded your phone what if any uh data sort of carried over from the old phone to the new phone if you um everything uh so as far as chats or or text messages or phone contacts things like that all of that transferred from one phone to the new phone correct and you're may approach yes and so first I'm going to show you a two page do ask take a look at it and look okay and do you recognize that man yes and what do you recognize that um this is from my phone my text messages and the second page what is that um colins contact information are those screenshots that you took from your phone provided to the the Troopers in August of 2023 mhm yes yes yes may I approach yes the St objection to be heard okay come on up bring that e e e e Jeff out for just a few minutes cour please follow me Jer is ex to the courtroom please be seated right [Music] I EXC for one second just pick up something it's the okay here if you could just briefly explain to the witness what's occurring yes yes I just need Miss dianetti back sorry okay so thank you and the next two if they would be not separately please thank you the lawyers are going to get to ask you a few questions now before we go any further in front of a jury okay okay so um Mr L you can take the exhibits back and you can question this witness and then miss gianetti can cross-examine may approach with yes all them so Mr C with reference to the uh two screenshots uh that we were just talking about before the jury left the room um those are screenshots that you took from your own phone correct correct and uh as as far as the communications uh contained therein um is it your memory that those are Communications that you had with Colin Albert why don't you ask her what what they are non-leading those screenshots as far as the communications what are they when were they done um at a later date is that what you're asking sorry so I'm asking as far as the actual content of the conversations when did those conversations occur um January 28 and uh you were a participant in those conversations yes and um as far as the content of those conversations is if your memory uh the content reflected there is accurate as to what the content of the conversations were between himself and Colin Albert the evening of the 28th and of the 20 yes and uh Colin Albert was somebody that you were familiar with correct yes and Beyond what's contained within these screenshots you would had other text Communications with Colin Albert using the same contact information correct and how is it that you uh knew or were aware that uh the person or the contact that you were talking to uh was calling out because it's his phone with reference to that contact uh you had in your phone for calling out had you called that number before yes when you called the number who answered Colin and when you had texted um calling on prior occasions using that contact information uh did you have any you have a text communication did you have any um subsequent conversation in relation to the content of those text Communications sorry can you rephrase that and I'm not just asking specifically about what I'm saying is you had a contact information in your phone for calling out yes and on any of those prior occasions when you had texted that contact information uh you put in as Callin Albert into your phone and just to be clear you were the one who input that number as Callin Albert into your phone yes and so on this or any prior occasions when you had contacted via text that contact calling Albert in your phone following those text Communications did you have any conversation with Colin Albert related to the content of those Communications sorry I'm confused do you understand the question you have to make these simpler let's try and get through this VOA Mr the at some point during the course of of your how long had you had Colin's uh contact information in your pH for a while years and over the course of those years um had you had conversations related to content in text in person oh yes and as far as far as the content that you had texted to that number you Associated or inputed Colin Albert was Colin Albert aware of the the content of those text Communications oh correct yeah and uh within those specific uh screenshot of the text Communications from that evening as far as your recollection of of uh that particular evening are the times that are associated with those accurate as to as far as your memory yes and did you do anything to alter the times that are associated with those uh text Communications prior to taking a screenshot and giving it to the state no um now turning to the other two uh screenshots that you took those are photographs correct um did I take them I'm just asking what they are oh um picture of both pictures of Colin one's with my aunt um the other's just him and some other people locked off and do you know when and where those were um yes they were taken at the Albert's house um one of their sons were coming home um from the marine and so was like a welcome home party and when was that in relation to the evening of January 28th to 29th a few weeks after and that sort of coming home celebration for your cousin who was coming home from the Marines were you there for that yes and so as far as your um observation of those photographs is what's depicted of Colin Albert is that a fair and accurate portrayal of what he looks like on February 11 yes I have nothing for all right Miss tetti thank you afterno good afternoon all how long have you had an iPhone I'm not talking about your current iPhone but just iPhones in general um for years uh more than five years yes and how old are you now I'm 20 20 and when did you get your first iPhone if you remember I don't remember 12 13 yeah around middle schoolish maybe seven or eight years is that a decent estimate yes uh and in those seven or eight years you have learned how to operate an iPhone the various features that they have and the apps that you can download and use correct correct and your current iPhone has a number of apps on it correct correct uh with regard to the text message app um you'll agree with me that that is a green uh icon with a white um sort of speech bubble in the middle of it yes I believe and you know that when you click on that it gives you a list of the text messages uh that you're exchanging with people the various threads correct correct you know that if you click on a thread it opens up the individual text messages that you've sent and received to that particular person correct correct and you know that if you take your f finger or your thumb and you hold it on one particular uh text that's either sent to you or from you um you can do things with that individual text correct correct you can forward it to somebody else right correct I believe in the context of a conversation you can just reply to that one particular text message right correct and if you uh do that rather than hit the arrow button where you forward or reply on the left side of the screen there's a trash can correct I'm not sure um you know that you can delete a text from a thread correct correct all right uh and it's a trash can that you click on right correct I'm not trying to trick you no no I was confused sorry no I I don't mean to confuse um so you know that uh if you click on the trash can it gives you an option to either cancel or to delete the message correct correct and what happens if you delete the message um it's deleted off the phone okay so it's gone from that threat correct correct and somebody looking at a screenshot that you take after you've deleted that message it wouldn't be evident that that message was ever there correct correct now uh you testified uh at a hearing in Boston on August 3rd of 2023 correct correct um that was uh we're not with a jury present that was a federal grand jury correct correct and uh you had by that point by August of 20123 you no longer had the phone that you originally had on January 29th of 22 correct yes I believe so um you had gotten a new phone in December of 2022 correct okay I'm not sure what time but does does that yeah I got I got a new phone I believe I got a new phone but and and actually the timing is not that important just that it was before that grand jury appearance okay yes all right uh and what did you do with the old phone when you got the new phone um transfer through iCloud everything transfers over okay but I'm actually talking about the the hardware itself the oh did Ione sorry can you repeat the question yes I'm sorry uh uh not the data on the phone I understand that you you've tested ified that you transferred that to the new phone but the actual physical phone itself where did that go when you got the new phone I'm not sure would that have been traded in possibly you don't have it now correct I don't think no um and as of August of 2023 you didn't have it either correct correct um is it fair to say that no investigator from this case ever asked you for that phone that you had on January 29th correct so miss dianetti can we just focus on the Vere all that you're doing you you can cross-examine her with but on the Vere of this sure thank you uh sure i' just like to get the jurors back in no I understand your honor I understand I was trying to lay a foundation but maybe it's not necessary uh so um with regard to if you need to do it go ahead I'm just trying to I want to accommodate the um with with regard to the uh messages that are in a given thread right we've talked about the fact that you are aware that you can reply to them an individual message forward or delete one correct correct um you're also aware that it is possible to change the timestamp on any individual message correct no I'm not aware of that you go to settings and you go to General and you go to date and time first of all you can change the time zone of the message do you have your iPhone with you right now not what not on me not on not on you um and in addition to being able to change the time zone you actually can change the hour and minute to whatever you want it to be were you aware of that no with regard to photos uh on your phone um you are aware that you can change the date and time of any photo in your photo app correct nope there is a little when you go go to your iPhone there's a little ey for information and all you need to do is or I think it's for info or information um all you need to do is click on that and you get a popup from the bottom that gives you the CH the choice to alter the date and time did you know that no uh next to that date and time is the word adjust and that's all you have to click on and you can change the time from from 1210 a.m. or you can change it from 12:40 a.m. to 1210 a.m. or you could change it from 1:45 to 1210 a.m. and it's it's that easy yep now I now I know I didn't know that I didn't do that I may have a moment okay that's it for the bo okay so I'm going to allow this testimony in um your argument goes to the weight of the evidence not its admissibility but I did under Commonwealth versus trachy want to give you your V okay all right so let's bring the jurors back in O yes p r d y you're before the jurors come back in May I just retrieve the exhibits yes but I'd like to see council at SAR while they're coming in e Hunter I think we should sit I think you can't tell anybody from I should do oh sorry course is back in session please be seated I apologize profusely I just need one more minute I'm so sorry e e and Mr L I have an instruction to give if you're going to put in that screenshot yes okay um jurs before remember I I've told you this before before you consider any electronic Communication in your deliberations you must find first that it is more likely true than not that the person who authored or sent um the communication was in fact either um Colin Albert or um Miss Ali McCabe um if you do not find that it's more likely true than not that Miss McCabe or Mr Albert was the person who authored or created or transmitted uh the electronic communication then you cannot consider that communication in your deliberations so with that Mr L thank you and your honor uh the first two pages uh that's been marked AA Comm could to introduce and admit as the next exhibit okay those may be admitted to our convers yes any your if I may just approach to return it to the witness sure thank you now miss McCay with reference uh to oh before we get into that um you had an iPhone at the time of January 2 is that correct correct and with respect to um your friend Colin Alberts um as far as his contact information within your phone who entered that in your phone um I did and uh prior to that date of January 28th into the 29th 2022 had you had uh phone conversations where you would sort of press the button to call that number and it ran correct correct and who if anyone answered the phone when you contacted that phone uh that phone number in your Colin now with reference uh to um Colin and and the contact on your phone had you had uh prior text Communications uh with Colin using that contact that you put in correct and outside of those uh text Communications that you have um did you have sort of physical in-person conversations with Colin in regard to content that was within text messages you have with that content yes I assume so and specifically on that date of uh January 28th and the 29th when you arrived at the home on Fairview Road you texted Colin that you were there um yes and after you texted him that what if anything happened after that um he responded saying okay and then um he came out to the car and your honor if I may uh with the Course Mission just uh publish uh the text communication uh to the jury on screen yes and I'm Sorry Miss Gilman if you could F down a b now what's up on the screen Mr cave is that what you have before you as as the exhibit yes and looking at there's sort of one side as text and one side as blue bubble is that correct yes and if you know who is communicating with who as far as the the sort of plain text outside of um Colin and I is that what you're asking sorry what I'm asking is who's the blue bubble oh sorry I'm the blue bubble and he is the gray white fish bubble and um from sort of top of what's depicted on the screen um you read the text that you received in the time that you received yes um 11:54 and then I responded at 11:55 and what did col say at 11 um you can get me now if easier and what did you resp okay I am driving people home now and what did Colin respond to that and what time did he respond he responded word getting me after following the get after what if any respons you provid KK okay and here and here that you texted what time does that read on the screenshot 1210 a.m. and what if anything the call respond to the he responded at the same time saying okay you can take that may approach just to retrieve you yes oh you need that thank you okay thank you um so the next uh two pages two separate pages um contain photographs is that correct yes and you recognize what's depicted in those photographs that I've just placed before you yes what do you recognize those two um it's Colin I'm sorry well let me ask you more specifically so were these also screenshots that you provided to Troopers of the State Police in August of 2023 yes I believe so what's in in regard to those two photographs uh do you know when and where those photographs were taken um they were taken February 11th um at the Alberts Nole and Brian's house objection no I'm I'm going to her testify when they were taken and so February 11th of what year ma um 2022 so a few weeks after January 28 29th correct yes and were you present at the Albert's house on the evening of February 11th when they when they were taken yes and what was the purpose of yourself and or Colin or anybody being over the Albert's house on that day um one of Nicole and Brian's Sons were coming home for from their Marine and so there was um like a welcome home party with family and friends and that is your your cousin Jack is that correct correct um and as far as what's contained in those photographs is that a fair and accurate portrayal as far as your memory of what Colin looked like uh on February 11th correct and your may I approach again yes I'm see to introduce and Adit as the next two exhibit again subject to our discussion sure okay yes those are Comm [Music] and then just returning those to you and first I would direct your attention to what's been now marked asida to on mman with the course permission may I publish those of the Jes at yes yes if you could just enlarge that a bit and you recognize what's now up on the screen is what you have before you as exhibit 82 and if you could subscribe to the jury sort of what we're looking at in this Photograph um Colin and my Auntie Coco and your Auntie Coco is also Nico Alber yes Nicole and if I can direct your attention to the next exhibit for youh and uh again what's up on the screen is that what you have before you as 83 yes this is the same evening is that correct correct you know where in the house this photograph is um I believe it they call they call it their Library maybe it's the last it's the room in the back and as far as um what's contained in this photograph in reference to your friend Colin Albert as far as his face his arms his hands is that fair and accurate betrayal of what he looked like on February yes thank you very much M you can take you I may approach one more time just retrieve thank you thank you I have no further questions joh okay Stan Edie thank you good afternoon good afternoon M mccab you have known uh Colin Albert your whole life correct correct your mother is Jennifer McCabe correct his mother is Julie Albert correct and her maiden name was Julie Daniels correct your mother Jennifer grew up together with his mother Julie correct correct uh you and Colin are extremely close correct yes in fact you would consider Colin Albert to be one of your best friends in the world correct yes he's one of my best friends now um you claim that you took a screenshot of a text conversation that you had with Colin Albert on January 29th of 2022 correct correct those were the screenshots that were just shown to this jury this afternoon correct correct uh and you claim that that uh the information on that screenshot actually existed on January 29th correct correct um did you tell your mother Jennifer mccab that you had that text conversation with Colin Albert anytime after January 29th of 2022 objection sustained did you give to your mother Jennifer mccab a screenshot of that text message conversation objection Su stand um it's fair to say that on January 29th 30th 31st you did not turn over that screenshot to any law enforcement official correct of Janu of 2022 no I was never asked the the in no investigator from this case ever asked you for copies or a copy of that screenshot of that text message uh conversation on January 29th 30th or 31st correct correct they also did not ask you for a copy of that screenshot through the whole month of February correct correct in fact all of 2022 no investigator ever approached you to say can I have a copy of that screenshot correct correct uh and in addition to that you never called an investigator to say hey I have a copy of a screenshot of a text message conversation that I had with Colin El correct no it wouldn't have been relevant at that time okay I believe because col was not at the house and wasn't introduced as being there until later so your uh testimony today that is that at no time in the year 2022 did you consider it relevant at all that you had this screenshot of this text conversation correct correct uh leaving that screenshot aside oh but actually before I leave that topic um you didn't turn over that screenshot of a text message until sometime during the summer of 2023 correct correct about a year and a half or more after January 29th of 202 too correct yes when I always asked uh and by that time the summer of 2023 um you had already switched phones correct yes believe in other words the iPhone that you had on January 29th of 20122 you no longer had possession of that physical phone correct correct you had a new iPhone correct correct and you say that you transferred over the data from the old phone to the new phone correct correct when did you take that screenshot that was displayed to the jury today I don't remember was it before or after you got rid of your old phone I don't remember so we don't know if that screenshot was from your phone that you got in December of 2022 or if it was from the phone that you had back in January of 2022 correct correct that uh phone that you got in December of 2022 uh it's now may of 2024 do you still have that same phone the phone my old phone is that no the my question was and again I'm not I'm not trying to trick you in any way here um the phone that you got in December of 2022 the the new phone at that time is that the phone your current phone correct now before you uh got rid of the old phone and got the new one did any law enforcement official you know prior to that December of 2022 time period or investigator from this case ever asked to examine your physical phone itself no uh did they ever say to you we would like to do what's called an extraction on your phone no and you've never you never gave that phone at any point to any law enforcement official before you got rid of it correct correct and the first time that you mentioned that text conversation um outside your family was August 3rd of 2023 correct correct that was at a proceeding in Bost correct correct neither Mr L or M we with jaction yeah move along Mr y yes um that uh proceeding in August of 2023 was less than a year ago correct we're in May of 2024 correct and that was a long time time after John O'Keefe was found dead on Brian Albert's lawn correct correct and that August of 2023 when you're revealing that text exchange that was over a year and a half after January 29th of 2022 correct correct and leaving aside the the screenshot um as of August 3rd of 202 three no investigator from this case uh no State Police Trooper or anybody from the DA's office had ever interviewed you right prior to August of 2023 um I talked to the troop state troopers but I don't know if that was before or after that was on August 25th of 2023 which is about three 3 weeks after your testimony in the other proceeding does that refresh your memory yes then after point in time on August 25th of 2023 you'll agree with me that you were not interviewed at a police station or a state police barracks correct correct or the DA's office correct correct you were interviewed by Zoom correct correct and you were not alone at that time in your in your home correct I'm not sure your mother Jennifer mccab was present correct okay and she was monitoring what was going on in that interview correct jaction was that true do I I don't recall okay in any case that that too was over a year and a half after January 29th correct correct all right now I I'd like to ask you some questions about by the way you've had uh an iPhone since you were 12 or 13 years old correct and you're now how old 20 so seven or eight years would be a good estimate as to how long you've worked with iPhones correct and obviously you know how an iPhone Works correct correct you know how to reply and comment on text messages correct correct uh and you know that uh there's a a lot of tools open to you to to comment on text messages correct correct you can reply to a a text using an icon or an emoji right to like or dis like something that somebody else said correct you can laugh at it you can love it you can uh like it correct objection right correct uh and it's they make it pretty easy right all you need to do is put your finger or your thumb on a specific message and and hold it down and options appear correct correct and that's where you get the thumbs up the thumbs down the haha exclamation points question mark Etc correct uh and um you also have other options uh which is down the bottom there's a kind of a curved Arrow where if you click on that you can forward the message or reply to a specific message correct correct and on the left there's a trash can right correct and if what happens when you click on the trash can um it will delete the message from your phone and it's your testimony that with regard to the screenshot that we saw there are no deleted messages in that conversation correct yes um however you would agree as you've already testified that if a message had been deleted from a screenshot we'd never know right true um you're also familiar with the uh apps that are on iPhones correct correct you have a number of apps on your iPhone right correct um there are might be 12 or 50 I haven't counted them but 12 or 15 maybe on your home screen right correct and if you swipe to the left you get another new population of 12 or 15 correct not bad for an old guy um and uh you uh you use apps like Instagram correct Snapchat is a popular app correct uh and uh probably to your detriment but Life 360 correct all right that's been an app in the mcab family for a number of years right correct yes uh and uh it's in your family anyway you probably a lot of families it's mainly used for the parents to keep track of their kids right correct and uh in in order for Life 360 to work you have to have your location services on and somebody else has to have the app and is in the family correct connected to you correct and with regard to just going back to the the messages for a minute do you know the difference between an iMessage and a text message yes I believe one's blue and one's green okay uh the screenshots that we saw of your convers text conversation that you say that you had with Colin Albert um you were in blue right correct that means that Colin Albert also had an iPhone at the time correct correct now with regard to the timestamp on those messages uh the conversation about uh I'm here uh I believe you said gave the time 1210 a.m. correct correct um are you aware um how easy it is to change that time no are you aware that all you need to do is go from settings to General and then there's a date and time that you can alter jackon are you aware of that no I didn't know that was a thing um you know that when you set up your iPhone you have to choose a time zone correct correct and you always choose the New York time zone because that's where Boston is Right correct um are you aware that if you go into settings General and then date and time you can change the time zone to wherever you're going I guess I didn't I once I set my phone up I have no reason to change the time see uh and in addition to changing the time zone you literally can choose any time that you want you could make 1:45 a.m. 1210 a.m. in about 3 seconds you know that do you know that did you know that no um but but if if I'm not accusing you of this now but if you had changed the time on that from a screenshot we'd have no way of knowing correct I guess because what a screenshot of ultimately come becomes is like a photo correct correct it's not like you can edit it right I mean the the most that you can do is what we saw on the other photo that was displayed which is kind of Crossing out with a magic marker somebody's face or a time right that would be how you'd have to alter it right correct now I had asked you if prior to getting rid of your old phone and getting the new one if law enforcement ever asked you to you know go through the phone themselves and you had said no right yes they did not do that and then they never asked to do an extraction on the old phone correct no um what about the new phone that you now have that you got in December um has have the state police ever asked to do um you know have they ever asked to look through that phone um they look uh no I don't think so um you uh provided uh the screenshot that was shown to the jury today uh on August 25th when you talk to the state police in this case right of 2023 correct and when you provided them that screenshot uh did they say hey by the way can I look at your phone to see if it's on there Jackson I'll that did they say that to you um I don't remember but in any case you never physically showed them your phone right no you don't recall clicking on that text message app the glean app with the kind of white speech bubble you didn't click on that then click on the Colin Albert conversation and say here it is did you no uh and uh in addition to not asking you to see your new phone they also did not ask you to do an extra exaction of your new phone correct correct um and at some point in time you realize that you'd have to be a witness in this case and have the um unfortunate uh incident of having to talk to me right Jackson I'm going to see Council tie about for just a minute on this e [Music] okay and just to wrap this up to this day no extraction has been done on your phone correct correct now when you had that Zoom interview on August 25th you told the trooper that you drove Colin straight to his house after you picked him up on January 29th and then you went straight home correct yes I believe um and you have previously testified back in August of 2023 that you you believe you dropped Colin Albert off at his home at around 1215 1220 or so correct and when you left by the way you're very familiar with 34 Fairview right correct um that's family correct correct been over there many many many times correct correct and you're familiar with the neighborhood in terms of the streets that are around there right correct and you've lived in Canton your whole life were basally uh and you tell the jury the route that you took home from 34 Fairview or actually strike that the route that you took to um Colin Albert's house when you left 34th Fairview on January 29th um I don't remember specifically but I would believe I drove up um Fair View then sorry I don't know the streets um if I suggested to that the the street closest to 34 Fairview was cedarest and the one on the other side is Chapman does that refresh your memory yes so Chapman okay going up and gone to Chapman and taken a right or a left I'm really bad with directions um when I got there I went to the center of town his house I don't I don't know specifically which way I'm trying to think of it I can't picture it yes um are you familiar with Washington Street in Canton yes would you have wound up on Washington Street yes all right um and you're aware that the Canton library is on the corner of Washington and Sherman Street does that make sense yes so you would have passed by the library yes all right now with regard to whether you went straight home did you uh By the way when you went home did you stay there yes I believe so were in the rest of the night yes okay and what time do you say that you arrived at home I'm not sure um before around 12:30ish okay um with regard to Life 360 uh would you agree with me that if you go on that app and you're trying to figure out where somebody in your family is there's like a and let's say you want to know if somebody's home there's like a a circle that is that surrounds your home correct yes so um once you enter that Circle you know that life 360 gives an alert that said you arrived at home even though you're physically not walking in the door you're within that Circle and that's the home Circle right yes um on January 29th of 2022 at 1204 and 53 seconds you arrived within that home Circle correct correct and then at 12:06 and 55 seconds on January 29th you left that home Circle correct correct and then on January 29th of 2022 at 1223 and 14 seconds you completed a 7mile drive where your top speed was 42 M hour does that make sense correct correct and then you left home uh on January 29th of 2022 at 1223 and 14 seconds as well and what what that probably means uh reading between the lines is that you entered that home Circle but then you didn't go home you went through the home Circle and completed a seven mile drive somewhere right I guess I thought I went home I'm your okay I'm I'm sorry I didn't hear your answer um I believe I went home I was completing my drive out my house all right but at 12:26 a.m. on January 29th you left home again right jaction your honor did you did you leave home I I don't know I don't remember okay all right uh and at 12:26 a.m. and 12 seconds you arrived at the Canton High School correct no uh at TW on January 29th of 2022 at 1226 and 55 seconds you completed a 1em drive where your top speed was 43 mil hour right I don't believe so and then at 12:26 and 55 seconds on January 29th you left Canton High School and arrived at home on January 29th of 2022 at 1229 and 28 seconds correct I do not know and then after arriving home again on January 29th of 2022 at 1229 and 29 seconds you completed a 12 mile drive on January 29th of 2022 at 12:31 and22 seconds did you not no and then you left home on January 29th of 2022 at 108 and 15 seconds right I don't believe so and ultimately you went through the home bubble and the Canton High School bubble and you arrived at Canton High School at on January 29th of 2022 at 1:28 in the morning in 8 seconds can I see what you're referring to Sure may I approach you on yes you probably don't need these right no I'm good okay and to make it easy I mean you can read the whole thing but uh where it says record 16 is what I just asked you about but feel free to read the whole thing thank you and if you would read it silently to yourself and look up at me when you're done oh oh I'm sorry you sorry may I question yes um did that help refresh your memory on where you were that night no do you still dispute that you went straight home and didn't leave there objection sustained and finally we just I just asked you about arriving at Canton High School on January 29th of 2022 at 1 128 and 8 Seconds uh you arrived at home within that home bubble on January 29th of 2022 at 1:30 in the morning and 26 seconds correct what time did it say I arrived at high school 1:30 in the morning and 26 seconds and what time did it say I arrived the high school uh the high school was 1:28 and 8 seconds it wouldn't have taken me 2 minutes to go from the high school to my house confused used regard to the the high school was also one of the bubbles one of the areas where you could be right on live 360 no okay um did you say that on Life 360 um the Canton High School is not one of the areas that you're tracked in what do you what do you mean so remember do you remember we were talking earlier about oh like put in a location like that was home that was high school locations like you know if your mother's looking for you where are you yes you know you're at DNA Pizza you're at high school you're at you know home right I mean there those could be categories correct you've agreed that home was one of the categories correct um and having reviewed that the Canton High School is also one of the categories correct I believe so all right and on January 29th of 2022 the last entry is that you completed a 12mile drive on January 29th of 2022 at 1:32 in the morning and 23 seconds and that's the end of the activity do you agree with me that that's when you finally stopped that night I don't recall if I may have a moment yes questions thank you all right Mr L thank you now m c um with regard to um did you get rid of your prior iPhone or did you upgrade yourone upgrade and that would have been in December of 2022 is that correct yes I believe so was it sometime around Christmas yeah probably and that could have been a present as far as getting a new iPhone or upgrading upgrading your iPhone yes now as far as any of the information that you were shown as far as the screenshot did you and any way shape or form Al or delete any of the content within that text message from January 28th and 29th of with calling out no and um with reference to changing uh times or time zones or anything on text messages uh before Mr yti asked me any of those questions were you aware of any of those things as things that you could do with your phone no with regard to life uh 360 um what if any knowledge do you have as far as the accuracy of of sort of the time stamps that are contained within that app well I'm not sure but on the photo he showed me it says like turn Wi-Fi on so that like remind Ally to turn Wi-Fi on so that could have affected the accuracy and that was on literally every single one of the alerts that was on that page that he showed you every single one now Canton High School do you know what street that's on Washington Street I believe and yeah about how far a ride is it from Ken High School to uh your house um 78 minutes 10 I'm not sure you were in the bubble uh of K high school at 1:28 in the morning could you have possibly been in the bubble of your home at 1:30 in the morning no and unless you were going 90 mes hour in a snowstorm no now you were asked some questions uh about that time frame of August of 2023 uh when you were asked and you uh turned over sort of screenshots to uh troopers from the state police correct correct you were asked about previous times um indicating that uh you weren't asked uh and it wasn't relevant correct correct now you know why you were asked in August of 2023 three versus any prior time period um cuz Colin Albert wasn't in the house and then it was brought up here that it was he was and brought up where um by the defense and uh around that time of August 2023 I believe so yes and with reference to uh relevancy is that what you were talking about correct and what if anything else uh has you're close friends with Colin Albert is that correct correct what if anything else has uh you either your family or Colin Albert and his family undergone uh over the course of pendency of this case objection no that the door's been opened I'm allowing it um well basically harassment and harassment by who um bloggers people online and uh what if anything in relation to Colin Albert uh being in the house has has occurred as far as the harassment that you're talking about um can you rephrase um with reference to what you were talking about as far as the relevancy of Colin Albert being in the house at that time um what if any harassment was there in relation to that and in relation to Colin well no go ahead she can answer Colin wasn't at the house so he's being harassed for he was not at the house when John was there so I drove him home so he's the people are harassing him saying he was at the house when it's not true when you speak about harassment what what specifically type of harassment are we um phone call constant phone calls emails awful messages objection I'll allow it focus on this witness not Callin Albert at this point as far as uh you and and your family what if any type of harassment have you received um people showing up at our house um people emailing my school um just take a lot of harassment can I have moment please sure okay I'm sorry I have some thank you and how long period of time has that persisted for very long time thank you I have no F I have okay all right Miss mccab you're all set you your next witness Mr to L yes call multip call Colin Albert to the stand step right up there watch your step on me you saw the adist of the court and juring the case now heing the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you go I do whenever you're ready Mr L thank you uh good afternoon sir how are you could you uh please state your name and spell your letter Colin Albert a obb RT and where do you live sir Canton Mass and uh how long have you lived in C my whole life and uh who if anyone do you live in Cy I live with my mother and my father and my two brothers and uh your mother and your father what are their names Julie and Chris Albert and uh your brothers uh what are their names uh Chris and Dylan Albert and um as far as within the the age of you and your two brothers where do you fall in that I am the middle child and uh how old are you sir I'm 20 years old and uh do you work do you go to school I go to school at Bridgewater State and what year are you in I am going into my junior year now sir if I could turn your attention to uh January 28th into January 29th of 20 22 you recall those days uh yes you recall what days of the week they were um I do not uh do you recall whether it was a weekday weekend weekend and turning your attention to uh the evening of January 28th uh you recall where you went that night yes I do and just to be clear around that time uh were you in college were you in high school what grade were you in I was a senior in high school uh so end of January you would have been about four months away or so from graduation correct yes sir and um on that evening uh where did you at at some point did you leave your home and go up yes I did and did you recall about what time it was that you went out I do not remember uh do you recall whether it was light or dark when you went out it was dark and uh where did you upon leaving your house where did you go I went to one of my buddy's houses and uh that buddy what was his Mike and where does Mike live in relation to you can you rephrase that uh does Mike live in Canton as well yes he does and about how far is it from your house to Mike house about like 7 eight minutes and when you got to Mike's house uh was it just you and Mike or who if anyone else was there um I do not remember who was there was there more than just the two of you yes and uh generally speaking when you got to Mike's house what is it that you did when you got I do not remember now as far as how you got from your house to Mike's house uh do you recall how you got there no I do not remember let me ask you this did you walk did you drive did you get a ride I got a ride do you recall who you got a ride from no and um when you um do you recall let me ask you this as far as um that particular night that you went out um did you drink any alcohol beverages while you were up yes and uh did you drink any of those at Mike's house yes and uh do you recall generally what you were drinking that night Bud Light and uh when you were at Mike's house on that particular evening did you recall about how long you were there for a few hours and you recall how much you had to drink while you were at mik house I do not remember and so in reference to you going out and going over Mike's house and having some beers over there is that why you didn't drive yes um so you got a ride from someone over to Mike's house to spent some hours there and then do you recall where you went from there I went to my uncle's house and um fair to say you have a relatively large extended family within Canon is that correct yes and so when you say you went to your uncle's house which uncle's house did you go to my Uncle Brian and that would be same last name as yourself so Brian Albert yes and how is he your uncle sort of how is he related to he is my father's brother and why did you go to your uncle's house that night it was my cousin Brian's birthday so I went over to celebrate for a little bit with him and so that would be Brian Albert Jr is that right yes sir and you know how old your cousin Brian Albert Jr was turning uh on that night I do not know um when uh do you recall how you got from Mike's house to your uncle's house I believe Ali mck and uh do you know the address uh as far as your uncle's house 34 Fairview Road is that somewhere your family's house is that somewhere that you had been before yes and so your memory is that Ali mccave gave you a ride from Mike's house to the house on Fairview from what I remember yes now Ali mccab as far as who is that to you or or what if any kind of relationship you have with Al it is my cousin's cousin so not technically my cousin but we're close and like we do a family events and stuff like that together and you and and Miss MC are you in the same grade yes um and how long have you known each other my whole entire life um so not blood related but someone that you see at family events yes um and someone that was in the same grade and went to the same school as you correct and that school what which school did you go to at that time Canton High School and do you recall about what time it was that you arrived at the house on between 10:30 and 11: at night and and uh did you have at that time um any kind of uh curfew or time that you had to be home uh from from your parents usually around like right around before midnight and so was it like a hard fast like 12:00 if you're not here you're grounded or was it sort of around that time just around just around midnight and so after when when you arrive there you go into the house is that right yes and the house uh at 34 Fairview has a couple different ways to get in the house in the front is that correct correct and do you recall which way that you went in that that evening um the side door near the garage and when you come into the house uh where did you go within the house um what what room did you go into uh the living room and then from the living room where else did you go within house like the kitchen area and within the kitchen area of the house who if anyone else was present in the kitchen um like from what I remember my cousin Brian um Emily Fabiano Sarah levenson and Katherine dudy from what I remember that night um is it possible there were other people there that you just don't recall yes and where were they situated uh sort of in the kitchen dining room area like sitting around the uh kitchen table I would say now after you arrived there um well when you arrived there what what is it that they were were doing when you walked just listening to music and having a couple of drinks and um you come in you greet people is that correct yes now the other people that you talked about as far as beyond your cousin Brian Albert Jr um did you know those other people I knew of them I wasn't friends with them or anything fa to say they were older than you were is that correct correct so like Miss levenson would have been older than you uh by at least a few years at that point yes and same with reference to I believe you said Miss FAO and Miss dudy is that correct correct now when you arrive at the house uh did you have any other drinks once you got there yes and you recall what if anything you drank once you got there Bud Light the same as you were having before correct you uh know how many that you had while you were at 34 fair I do not remember and over the course of the evening whether it was at Mike's house or in between or when you got to 34 Fairview um you feel yourself as far as like overly intoxicated or drunk or anything like that no And as far as the other people that you observed at the house that night does anybody stick out to you as being over intoxicated or or fall down drunk or anything like that no now with reference to when you came into the house you mentioned there was music playing um what how would you describe sort of the the general mood within the house it was happy it was yeah now as far as that area where you first observed uh the people around the table in the kitchen dining room area when you came in um did you ever see anybody else go anywhere else in the house not that I remember did you yourself go anywhere else in the house no at any point in time in the evening while you were there did you go upstairs or downstairs in the basement or out in the backyard or anywhere else besides the kitchen dining room area no be on maybe the restroom at some point yeah other than that no and about how long were you uh at uh your uncle's house s night uh to celebrate your cousin's birth probably around like an hour and a half and uh so about what time would it have been that you left 12:10 and um with respect to you're leaving the house um who if anyone did you contact uh to to facilitate can rephrase let let me ask in a much easier better way okay um as far as your plans were concerned as far as leaving the house who if anyone did you reach out to to to get a ride from that my friend Ally McCabe um and uh how did you reach out to her I texted her and do you recall whether or not you had any sort of other communication well let me step back and ask it this way at that point in time um in January of 2022 uh you had Miss McCabe's information saved as a contact your phone is that correct correct and on prior occasions had you had a chance to you know call that number from your cell phone that you had programmed in as Ali MC correct and when you called that number who if anyone answered the phone Ally now with respect to uh text Communications have you had text Communications with that contact in your phone as Ali M prior to uh that date of January 28th yes and when you had those conversations did did you then also have subsequent sort of in-person uh conversations with Ali mccave as well yes and during those in-person conversations was there any reference or anything talked about the content that had been previously sent and communicated via text no let me ask it in a in a better so you would have text Communications with the person you put in as a contact as AL C correct yes and then subsequent to having those text Communications you would then speak to her either in person or over the phone correct objection um the objection Su stain watch the form of your questions following those uh text Communications with the person that you had input in your phone uh what if any verbal conversations would you have in reference to the content of the text me I'm not sure what you're asking by that did you talk to her in person about something you had talked to her about intense no now with reference um on that specific date of January 28th um had you was text Communications the only means by which you communicated with Al M no from what I remember yeah and were there other means by which you would typically communicate with her if she wasn't answer or text I'd give her a call yeah and were there apps or anything like that on your phone that you would communicate with her as well Snapchat sometimes now with respect to Snapchat and um your family specifically your cousins um what if any sort of uh group Snapchat uh change uh were there with respect to your family yes and specifically who were those sort of group Snapchat chains who was included within um I had a I have a Snapchat Group C uh Snapchat group chat with my cousins and you have cousins on basically your father's side and your mother's side correct not on my mother's side no you have no cousins on your mother's side no and with respect to uh the cousins on your father's side would it be all of your cousins that were included within that not all of them no and so who of your cousins would be included on those kind of group Snapchat ch um my older brother Chris my younger brother Dylan um my cousin Kevin Brian Brendan Caitlyn Kayla and I believe that is it and if you recall was there any communication on that that group Snapchat chain in regard to Brian Jr's birthday on that date of January 28th or 29th no not that I remember now with respect um so you reach out to miss MCC via text is that correct yes and she agrees to pick you up yes and uh at some point um are you made aware that she's at the home yes and how is it that she makes you aware that she's at the home I got a text message from her that says I'm here and at any point in time while you were in the home did uh did Miss mccab come inside the home no and so after you received that text message from Miss mcab did you respond yes and call what you respond come in and from that communication after you sent that about how long was it between the time that you sent that and the time that you came up between 30 seconds and a minute I'd say and when you came out of the house uh um do you recall which door you came out at that point the side door next to the garage and when you came out that door who with anyone did you encounter as you were coming out um as I was walking out I saw my Uncle Brian and my Aunt Nicole and uh you were going out and what were they doing they were coming in and uh in addition to your Uncle Brian and your Aunt Nicole was there anybody else that you recall it was with them when they came into the house no not that I remember and um what if any exchange did you have with your uncle and your aunt as you were going out and they were coming in I just said um I'm going home my mom wants me home I love you guys bye and uh you then went outside of the house is that correct correct and did you see uh Miss mcab outside yes and where was she in Rel where was her vehicle in relation to the house in the driveway now if do recall what type of vehicle Miss McCabe was driving on that particular night or had at that time I believe it was the blue Ford that they had and was that a sedan was that an SUV what type of vehicle a sedan um and so you come out that's in the driveway correct correct you recall whether or not it was parked on the left side or the right side of the driveway I do not remember and you get into the get into the vehicle which part of the vehicle did you get into that I do not remember um front seat passenger side does that sound right could have been that yeah you recall whether not there was anybody else in the vehicle at the time that you got in I do not remember that you recall whether or not there was anybody else in the vehicle at the time that she had dropped you off at that location I do not remember that either now as far as the coming outside of the house uh did you take note of anything as far as the weather or what was going on with that when you came outside pretty sure it just started snowing at that time around that time um so the snow had just begun do you recall whether or not it was sticking or ACC accumulating on the ground at that time I do not remember no now you get into the car and where did you go she drove me right home um so no stops along the way just from straight from fair viiew to your house correct and uh about how long a period or how long a drive is anywhere between 5 10 minutes now as you were outside of the house walking to the car and after the car sort of backs out of the driveway and leaves You observe anything abnormal or unusual outside of of your uncle's house that night no Did You observe any other cars outside of that time not that I remember now Ali U has a a mother and a father and you're familiar with them is that correct correct and what are their names Jennifer and Matt um same last name that you gave yes and are you familiar with uh what of vehicles they have yes and when you came out of the house and got into Alley's Ford Sedan um did you see any vehicle you would associate with either Jennifer or Matthew mccab at the house at that time no and so you drive home and you go uh to your your house um without the address um whereabouts within the town of Cy uh were you living at that point uh it's right in the center of Canton near The Season's gas station and is that a single family house or or a multif family house or what is it it is a condominium and when Mr pulls in and and Parks you get out correct yes and so in order to get into the building is there um in order to get into your home is there how is it that you get into your home when you get to the to the conference um there's a there's a door around back that I go into and I got to um either have a key or they buzz me in but I usually have a key and I got to go up uh a few three flights of stairs and then we're at the top level on the in the condominium and so there's you have to get sort of into the building before you can get into your your own unit correct and did you notice whether or not m m cave was still there as you were excuse me did you notice whether or not miss mccave was still out there park when you open the door with key that I do not remember and you get into uh the know were you get into your home and uh who if anyone was living with you at that time my parents and my little brother your older brother where was he in San Diego he was in the service is that correct correct and uh as far as your brother your little brother and your father and your mother were they home when you got home yes and how do you know that because I remember my parents being up in their bedroom that night is there any sort of U wuol or sort of the lack of a better term but protocol as far as when you come home where do you go sort of first thing when you walk in I always um tell my mom and my dad that I'm home and usually go up to their bedroom give them a hug good night tell them I love them and then go down to bed and did you do that on that occasion yes um so sort of immediately when you come home you go right up to your parents room yes and when you got up to your parents room on that particular evening was both your mother and your father in their room correct and you had that sort of exchange that you described for yes and um so your bedroom is then located downstairs from where your parents bedroom is yes and um if you know about what time was it that you that you came into the house I want to say around 12:20 and fair to say this is two and a half years ago and you weren't exactly looking at your watch when you came in is that right exactly yes and as far as being home or having that curfew around midnight or so did you get in trouble for being late that night no objection I'll sustain the objection I'll strike that now Mr Albert the place that you were living at that point in the condo how long had you been living in that I do not remember um did you live somewhere else in Canton prior to yes where was it that you seven Meadows AV and how long did you live at at seven Meadows my whole entire life before moving to that condo and so all I'm sort of trying to ascertain here so from the time of January 28 29 2022 was it a long time short time months weeks years how long had you been living at the Contin short time I'd say a couple months and so prior that couple of months you had lived your whole life at seven Meadows app correct correct and um that was a single family house is that correct yes and with respect to uh living on Meadows AV did you know uh people that lived on your street growing up yes and at some point uh while you were living there did you come to know someone by the name of John oi yes and how did you know Mr O he lived at the top of our street um so how many houses if you know were sort of in between your house and Mr ois two and um do you know how long that Mr o' had been living on that street I do not know and how did you how did you know him sort of if you could describe sort of your relationship with your neighbor Mr O I knew him because I knew that my parents were friendly with him so that's and I knew he lived at the top of our street that's how I knew him and uh were you aware uh cool if anyone lived at the house with Mr oi I know his two um kids that he brought in adopted lived there and I'm not sure who else and that would have been his niece and his nephew that he adopted correct correct where were they in relation to you as far as Ages were concerned a lot younger I don't know the exact age difference but but you were in high school they would have been some grade far below yes now as far as um your relationship with Mr O your nebor um about how often would it be that you would you would see not often every i' drive by every now and then he'd be outside and I would wave he'd wave back that was pretty much it and during the time that you lived on meav or any the couple months subsequent to that um is there ever any animosity or any any sort of uh arguments or anything thing that you would ever had with Mr O never and how would you describe Mr O from your perspective as as far as how would you describe him as person a nice guy a good guy now with respect uh to if I could bring you back to uh Fairview Road on January 28th and 29th of 2022 um obviously you were familiar with Mr O'Keefe at that point yes and at any point in time that you were in that home uh did you see Mr O'Keefe inside the home no at any point in time that you were outside of the home going in coming out at any point in time did you see Mr no at any point in time in the evening of January 28th into January 29th 2022 did you see Mr O anywhere no and at that time in end of January 2022 uh were you uh aware of or did you know any Body by the name of Ken yes and how did you know her I knew that she dated uh Mr o'keef and had you had any sort of Prior interactions with Miss Reed prior to January 28th not that I remember no did you know what she looked like not really um as far as any interactions would that be just sort of driving by the house yeah maybe drive by wave that was that was a about it I may have one moment yes now as far as that um sort of reaching out to miss m on that particular evening was that something that um you had done before yeah is that something that sort of you and your friend group uh did together as far as if somebody was out and driving around and somebody else was maybe drinking somewh they could contact them for a r yes correct that was as opposed to somebody drinking and then getting behind and we drve correct exactly now sir um some point in July of 2023 did you have uh occasion to uh meet with any troopers from the state police in regard to that evening of January 28th 29 say the date again some point in July of 2023 did you meet with any troopers from the state police no at some point subsequent to that date of January 28 29th did you meet uh with any troopers from the state police yes okay um and you were asked questions and you answered them is that correct correct and uh following that uh conversation or interview that youve had with troopers from the state police um what if anything did you provide them uh with reference to your phone um can you rephrase that sorry at some point did you provide them with a screenshot of a text communication between yourself and M yes and was that something that you took screenshot on your own phone and then were able to then provide it to them correct you may approach yes showing you a documents is ask you to look up look at it and then look up when you're finished and do you recognize that sir yes what do you recognize that um my text message is between Ali that night and what's contained on that is that a fair and accurate portrayal of what you recall as far as the text messages what was on your phone as far as what you took a screenshot of of the text messages between you and Al C that night yes sir approach again yes I'm want the seek to introduce in the minut Mr Jackson yeah one sure no objection thank you all right and jurors remember the instruction I gave you about the text messages thank you okay thank you I may I approach just to return to the commission may I uh publish this for the jurge okay so what's up on the screen is that what you have before you as exhibit 84 yes and um the contact that's listed at the top states out is that correct correct is that how you had M programmed in correct and from this there's um two sets of communications one contain in BL Bubbles and one contain in non blue bubbles correct yes if you know the blue bubbles is that you or is that Mr C or who that's me so the other side would be Miss MC is that correct correct there's also times that are stamped are associated with these text bubbles and the text Communications miss m yes and if I could direct your attention it may be easier if you're looking at the paper in front sort of starting from the top um January 28 2022 uh if you could uh read for the jury uh who what the content is what the time is and indicate who is is communica um at 1154 I texted Ally and said you can get me now period at 11:54 I texted her again and said if easier at 11:55 Ally texted me back and said okay I'm am driving people home now at 11:55 I said word and then at 11:55 I said get me after at 11:55 Ali rope back at KK and then at 1210 a.m. Ali wrote here and at 1210 a.m. I wrote back okay it's going you can take that you may approach this to retrieve the exit yes Sir with respect uh to um that last communication that you sent as far as okay how long after that uh message was sent did you then go out to the car where Ali was right after I'd say around 30 seconds and you may I approach the witness again yes sir when I'm showing you what's been marked as exhibits 882 and 83 again I just ask you to take a look at those and look up when and do you recognize those sir yep and what do you recognize those um say that say that again what what is in those um a picture of me and my aunt and a picture of me by myself and uh do uh recall sort of uh when those photographs were taken yes February 11th and why is it that you recall that that well let me ask you this as far as February 11th was concerned where were you that that I was at my uncle's house and why are you at your uncle's house on that uh my cousin was coming home for leave from the Marine Corps so we had a little gathering for him and just to be clear when you say your uncle you're talking about your Uncle Brian Albert again correct your cousin that was coming home from the Marines uh what's his name Jack Al and so on that evening you were over that house is that correct correct and um the first picture in exhibit I believe it's 82 is that correct you and your a Nicole correct and what's contained on there is that a fair and accurate betrayal of sort of what you look like as far as your your arms your hands your face all of those things on on that date of February 11th correct and the second photograph is again you by yourself is that correct correct and from that photograph again is that a fair inacurate trail of what you look like on February 11th yes and from the second photograph in if you know where where was that taken within the home of your um in the library at um 34 Fairview and again that library or any of the other rooms uh within the house beyond the kitchen the dining room or possibly the restroom did you go into any other areas of the house on that night of January 28th into January 29th no I approaches retrieve yes yep one moment joh okay now Mr Albert just one last question when it came to your arrival at 34 Fairview Road on the evening of um or the early morning of January 29th when you were leaving um beyond your uncle bran and your Aunt Nicole um did you see anybody else um anybody else older than yourself or anybody else related to uh that group come into the house that evening no thank you sir I have nothing F Mr Jackson do you want to begin or wait until the morning you it probably makes more sense to wait okay thank you all right um going to wait until the jur the jur is leave and then you can follow the all right jurors I do have to caution you please do not discuss this case with anyone do not do any independent please research or investigation into the case if you happen to see here read anything about the case please disregard it and let us know tomorrow's the half day we'll see you tomorrow morning at night court all right [Music] please be seated session all right do you need me for anything any evidentiary issues any exhibits that we um need to go through to avoid sideb time tomorrow not for the com off your not on behalf of