[Music] oh [Music] hello viewers and welcome to the latest episode of the Huddle I have with me today Richard Flint the former CEO of skybet Richard thanks for joining us great to be here thank you yeah looking forward to speaking to you about there's plenty we can talk about across both sides of the Atlantic Ocean um to start off with you know I introduced you as the former skybet CEO how do you look back uh obviously a flourishing brand at the moment in in the UK and flutter generally how do you look back on your legacy at Sky Bet I mean I feel very lucky to have had the uh the career uh well hopefully my career isn't completely ended yet and whatever form it may take but um I feel really lucky for the time uh I had with um with Sky bet you know growing it from a relatively small and love part of sky in the early 2000s uh from a sort of you know eventually some some good growth uh in the UK Market took us a while to get things right which we can talk about if you want um but then um we had good momentum from sort of 2010 to 2015 within sky and then three very successful and enjoyable years as an independent company backed by CBC and then an eventual exit to to um be bought by the S group and then soon after that I joined the flut board which is interesting as well but um yeah really privileged to have had that time and most proud of you know alongside the sort of business success we had and the good feedback we got from customers we built a really strong successful team of culture and I still see many of those people around and many of them have gone to great things afterwards other in the gambling sector or elsewhere and that's certainly the thing I'm most uh proud of so you you recently left the flut board um I think I think it might be useful if if you maybe just kind of update our our viewers on on what what it is exactly you're doing now and you know how much do you do you miss being at the front and center of the gambling industry or maybe the opposite yeah um the uh so yes so um so left skyb after the acquisition uh and then there was a per by the S and then flat bought the whole thing and you know I was um interested to join flat as the biggest um regulated gambling company in the world um and a fantastic uh fantastic company um I did that uh I sort of part plan thing I did that for I guess four years nearly um but alongside that I've been trying to work out what I do when I grow up um and I've been um uh you know investing and working in different Industries um and really I'm looking for great companies with a lot of potential in interesting sectors mostly dtoc internet enabled businesses and the two that I've really um uh you know enjoyed the most is uh subscription dog food business fresh dog food called button up box which has really gone for strength the strength and then a premium tickets company called SE unique um in addition to that I'm on the board of lad Bible and uh invested in a spin studio called ride in leads and several other range of Investments as well that I'm more you know passive within um but have I missed I mean it's it's pros and cons like I'm doing the range of things uh that I'm doing at the moment is you get the variety you get the interest and it's great to learn about different Industries but I did very much enjoy you know running a company and building a team and you know being front to center of things I you know I won't deny that I enjoyed parts of that and there's parts that I miss so but so it's also it's also very stressful and all consuming running a business so I think um yeah there's pros and cons to both sort of roots and I've I've enjoyed both and I wouldn't say that I'd 100% committed to either one or the other for the rest of my life given you you've got kind of a taste of different Industries um I mean I know you you'll know a lot about about how the gambling industry has changed over the years uh how does the industry compare I mean a lot of people um when they come into gambling uh even my own story they say it's a happy accident and they end up staying for a very long time because it's it's Dynamic there's a lot going on I mean how does it sort of compare to other Industries I think it's a a fasinating industry and I mean it's um often at the Forefront of Technology developments um I think it also um is you know the connection with sport was always something that was appealing to me um it is a business that uh you know had a lot of growth and a lot of disruption you know we were able to make something that was successful and profitable um you've obviously you've got the sort of public perception side and and connected to that the regulat side which I think is sometimes very challenging you know um for a person I mean you you find this and many of the listeners will people watching this will find that you know you get a different reaction from people you know it's always something that you're you sit next to someone at a dinner party or when I used to go to those things and um you get different reactions to different people I think uh a lot of that is um lack of understanding but also I think the industry it you know is an industry that can be the product can be addictive and problematic for some people and I think um the industry is not always portray itself in the right light and not always acted in a way that it should and so you know some of that sort of criticism has been Justified some not and in part of me find that interesting in a way uh because it is a controversial industry and it is you know challenging to work in but part of me also gets a bit sck and tired of it sometimes and you do get quite a bit of you're running a company you get quite a lot of sometimes unsolicited feedback on social media about the evils that you might be perpetuating which um you have to have a thick skin I think to be able to deal with that and I think ultimately you have to be comfortable in your own head with what you're doing which I was um uh but you know you have you have to be in that in that place certainly I think the social media point is valid because obviously yourself you're quite active on social media I mean some other well a lot of CEOs these days you get a 50-50 mix I guess but some CEOs I know will have uh just specific teams running their social media for them so they might not necessarily take any criticism too personally because they might never come across it um but obviously I know you're very active um if uh if we were to to going in specifically on obviously you were as you mentioned sky and flatter if we were maybe to as someone who's kind of recently left left the board so you know a lot about the company from the inside as well um in terms of companies doing well in the industry at the moment you've got entain not not so much in a good space as as as the industry Giants as it were but flat are very much in a good place a lot a lot to do with FanDuel as as you know a former executive at the company what what's your kind of take on U overview of the company at the moment going forward yeah I think it's a I mean it's a great company and a leader in regulated uh gambang I think um you know the biggest the biggest brands and the biggest the most successful companies in most of the main markets are for the regulated markets are owned by fluter and I think um that is a good model and I think that there's a lot of you know one the reasons why FanDuel has been successful is they've been able to learn from other different companies within the group including skybet some really strong people have gone there there's uh you know some of the technology and the things like the odd setting has been leveraged uh locally from a sort of more Central operation quite a good balance between uh this the sort of what's centralized and what's shared and what's localized and focused and and you know independently operated so that's gone well um yeah I think all of those reasons have made it um have made it successful and I been see that uh carrying on I'm sure they'd be ups and downs along the way but I think the company's really well positioned M um when talking about flatter obviously recently a major move to kind of go primary listing in the US uh the us we talk about Fel it's a huge uh well it's huge in gam in general but for flat the US is is the main play now um what are your views on the US market as as a whole as someone who I guess uh you specialized in the UK Market to begin with but obviously you've had exposure to the US via flutter yeah I mean the UK Market sorry the US market is hugely growing hugely excited hugely exciting it is a state by state um Market as you well know um and sports Bing is legal and regulated in most but not all states and you know some big gaps in um you know certainly California and I think Texas as well unless I'm wrong I'm not 100% speed flid for as well yeah um obviously the gaming side is only uh regulated and license in what three states or certainly no more than no more than a handful maybe a bit more than three but anyway there's a lot more gaming uh lot stes that are not license for gaming than than that are um I think there is huge excitement and growth around it reminds me a lot of what the UK was like maybe 15 years ago and you know when Sky first got into the space and where uh the growth was happening and it was something that was um you know people as an excited business opportunity and great from a customer point of view as well both those things are true um I I am you know I'm little bit nervous that there'll be the same uh social and potentially sort of political and Regulatory backlash as well that we've had um I can see it going through the same cycle that would be my fear and my view um although you know the counterargument to that is that it's um a different country with different uh views on you know the role of individual and you know with gambling it's really a tradeoff between sort of protection for vulnerable people and freedom for the vast majority that are not vulnerable uh and there's no sort of Silver Bullet there's no magic answer you you can you know I think most vulnerable people really it's hard for the companies it's hard for regulation or for individual companies to protect them but there's some stuff you could do but that those things that you do will restrict the freedom of other people and get in the way you know the affordability deat we've had at the moment that's they would certainly well help some vulnerable people but be hugely restricted for nonvulnerable people and there sort of you know you got to different countries will take different views on on uh different people within those count different views on to what extent you can uh reduce the freom of the nonvulnerable to protect the more vulnerable and some people argue that the us is going to inevita to be different to the UK on that I think we'll we'll see in the for of time and it may be that it's different state by state um on on that basis is it the case that perhaps go two ways here is it the case that the US is simply not heeding the lessons learned from the UK or is it uh actually that you mentioned earlier a similar trajectory is this just maybe the natural trajectory of every kind of major gambling Market obviously companies are there to to to make profits and eventually that just leads to Greater regulation good question I don't wouldn't say I'm totally confident in the answer I do yeah part of me thinks it's inevitable that you have to go to this cycle of companies maximizing profits maybe a bit shortterm maybe thinking that they're that their country is different from all the other countries that have gone before um and uh leading to certain maybe certain behaviors or certainly a lack of consciousness of perceptions of The Wider public and politicians and then then you get the backlash and then eventually there's a settling down towards a center you know middle middle middle ground which is sort of think where we're heading in the UK um yeah I think there probably is a bit of that cycle I think you know my um my view on the US is it's very difficult to do this but if you could get the industry United to be a little bit um more conscious of behaviors that are a little bit um shortterm and certainly aren't don't play out well in the court of public opinion you know if you can do that and maybe encourage a certain degree of Regulation to stop these sort of more extreme behaviors then maybe you it's better for the industry long term because you reduce the risk of a backlash towards overregulation that' be that'd be my view you know but it's it's very hard to do you know you're relying on on a lot of um a long-term view from a lot of different people in uh in the industry and um it remains to be seen whether that it'll that way in the US or not yeah there's certainly no immediate right answer otherwise myself and yourself we wouldn't have anything to sit here and discussed because it would all be decided for us but but certainly this is a it's a tough issue um there's plenty to talk about in the UK but I wanted to ask you one more question uh on the US before we move onto that and slightly different direction to what we've just been discussing uh is it a fair assessment to and might slightly controversial to say that the US sports betting Market at the moment actually is is almost rather uncompetitive already because you have the Fel and DraftKings you got a couple of Challenger Brands and I say Challenger they're big Brands and Caesar and MGM but it's certainly not the the widescale competition that we have in the UK and and certain other markets yeah um I mean you have got two players with a lot of market share but they are competing pretty heavily with each other and there aren't really barriers to entry are higher than they were in the UK but still not insurmountable you know you've got ESPN bet coming in you've got um you've got uh what's the um the clothing brand um fanatics fanatics um and you've got bet 365 and you've got bet MGM so there's a level of competition um and yeah I wouldn't I would say you've got high market share of the two bigger players but you know there's still a a chance particularly of those two don't deliver of other people catching up um I mean I think the sort difference in the UK you had originally you had the retail Brands the L Brooks and William Hill who had that brand presence some were relatively early online and then and they had the sort of biggest share way back in the day and then the sort of online Brands certainly the sky bets 365 and Patty power took share over time in America you haven't really had that BS Bing retail brand with initial market share so actually the the early winners have been the digitally oriented companies so you know that I think that that' be one of the reasons why it might where you've got quite a high concentration why it might not change uh in the same way as it did in in the UK you know you've got sort of players that should be and can be high performers online that are already the bigger companies so you might not see this same Dynamics mhm yeah no I suppose that that's a that's a positive outlook and the key point being that there's even if there's two or three dominant Brands is still not just a monopoly so I suppose that certainly a fair point um so UK Market um I almost I almost don't have to ask anything UK Market you know what are your views at the moment of so much going on so much uh potentially changing a lot of discussion a lot of consultations um where do we sit now you mentioned earlier that we we're heading towards a potential sort of Middle Ground which I guess is a good outcome but we've got a long way to go before we we already have an outcome in the UK yeah I mean because there's a lot of moving parts and you know I'm not I'm not in the industry right now so I might be sort of a few weeks out of date but as I understand that there are um there are proposals for trial periods of of affordability checks at different levels uh I actually think that it's they're reasonably sensible the levels that are being talked about I think they're about right um and you know pleased to see not too many product restrictions that drives the black market um pleased to see you know not too many advertising restrictions because that also drives the black black market and I don't think advertising whilst it doesn't help the public perception in Industry I don't think it really drives the problematic issues that that you know that that we've had um uh so I sort of feel like we are at a sensible place um and I just and I feel a bit like the you know the is not in the media all the time like it was three or four years ago and part of that's because the some of the worst behavior has stopped partly because I think journalists have moved on to other things um so i s yeah like I said I sort of feel like we are in a sensible place you know there's going to be likely be a change of government in the next um six months or you know uh so less than that wasn't it a couple of months so that's always a time when things could change but I don't really anticipate it to be honest I sort of feel like it's a sensible balance between protection of the vulnerable and freedom for others you know and whilst not driving individuals to the black market um anyway I hope that's the case so whether that will you know whether that will lead to market share changes over time I probably doubt it I sort of feel like it's settled down in the UK it's almost a mature industry now the UK onl which you know it's taken 20 years to get there but I feel it's there now yeah I mean I would I would personally agree on the kind of reasonable sort of Center Point part but like we talked about earlier if if I was sat here with someone uh a current operator tier one CEO in the industry there would probably be um there will probably be a lot of discussion that the changes are a bit too strict a bit too unnecessary but if I was speaking to a strong gambling critic you know there's always that polarized opinion especially in the UK I mean it's Global but with gambling in the UK as you've seen recently media attention there I think there will always be those two polar opposite viewpoints and whether they'll ever meet in the middle truly human nature I think dict dictates not yeah I mean whether they will agree with each other uh I doubt um I think you know I think I always felt that the critics had a had a point uh I guess I would maybe encourage both sides of that debate to try and at least see where the other person's coming from and you know I I had I always had some of the anti-gambling people that were vitriolic towards me as someone that operated a gambling company which I thought wasn't very constructive and and they you know they assumed that everyone in the gambling industry was evil and didn't care and was just trying to make as much money as they can and on one side then you get some of the gambling operators that think that any restrictions are going to drive over on to the black market and any um all the anti all the predicts of the gambling industry were and gambling you know full stop and uh you know were equally you know unfair critics um you know as you get the critic the other way so um I think both sides had a reasonable point of view and ultimately it's played out to hopefully a reasonable uh Center ground um for the industry um I think still some things to be worked through and I think um exactly how the the affordability checks work still needs to be finalized there is still it's still a trial period not a not a sort of um end point so there's still things to be worked through but um a lot of things I think there is a there's a balance between competing viewpoints competing interests competing reasonable points of view and I hope we've sort of ended up in a sensible Place really enjoy speaking with you thank you for your time and um I'm sure speak again soon especially after the latest developments that will happen us or UK but uh yeah Richard thank you very much for your time pleasure nice to speak and to our viewers thanks for watching as well