[Music] hi everyone welcome to type talks today we have linda behrens and so linda would you like to tell us a bit about you oh there's a lot to tell but not much so i've been using um personality type for um since 1971 no 5 75. so that's a long time yeah i think that's when i was introduced to it and i was introduced to kerzi's temperament theory in a psychopathology class so a masters for counseling so it was about how people go crazy the way they become dysfunctional in it and at the end he said about 20 minutes out of the three-hour course he would say well here's what this one looks like when they're functioning well and then we later were introduced to the myers-briggs and the um the dichotomies were explained in another class and then i got involved in the association for psychological type when it got started in 1981 80 something like that and we and i got exposed to jungian theory um a little bit then but a whole lot later and uh it turns out that i'm obsessed um yes yeah so it's the best obsession out there i'm not biased at all no me neither so it it turns out that um i was a school psychologist for a while did a little bit of therapy a little bit of business consulting continued some of the you know workshops and things like that for businesses when i started something that we called temperament research institute later changed the name to inter-strength associates and then now it's called inter-strength just plain interesting the idea of developing your internal strength and your interpersonal strength so that's pretty much what i do as i teach people online how to do our process in 2017 i started doing that we have an integrated three personality lenses temperament theory which we now call essential motivators because temperament got confusing because there is another temperament theory which means you know like the temperament of dogs or or the temperament of people which you know nervous babies calm babies that kind of thing and that actually relates to that other version of temperament which is the classical psychological one relates to a model that we developed called interaction styles so you have four essential motivator patterns four interaction styles so four ways to express each of those and you get to 16 personality types and then you can unpack those types with cognitive dynamics extroverted sensing and introverted sensing are really very different and so and the same is true for all of the processes so you think oh i have an intuitive preference but mine's extroverted and my daughter's is introverted and so when we're working together our preferred ways of working don't match because if i start talking and spinning off ideas she winds up losing the image that which is really her greatest gift to bring so really good run down linda so linda is the originator the creator of interaction styles and so if you've heard that term thrown around it came from linda right here well with a lot of help from my colleagues and you know proofing by people who um we wrote these four descriptions based from interviews that we did from we did we we created a booklet about it's called understanding yourself for yourself and others the 16 personality types descriptions for self-discovery and there are first-person descriptions based on interviews so we took those same interviews and i pulled the things that i thought would fit this interaction styles and then we send it out to people we knew and said does this fit you and then we got feedback and send it out again and got feedback and then now we have these descriptions that that can be helpful and useful so that's amazing could you give us a brief description of each of the interaction styles yeah they're pretty straightforward um one is in charge and of course the downside of that is people think you have to be the person in charge to have that style that you don't in charge has to do with wanting to get you know things accomplished and then there's get things going which is about really getting a lot of interaction and involvement toward a goal and throughout the course those who have a chat the course style want to anticipate it's not like they always want to plan some varieties want to have a plan but others just want to have an anticipation of what's going to happen and then there's behind the scenes which is about pulling in information from a lot of sources and getting the best result possible behind the scenes wants to get the best result possible in charge wants to get an achievable result chart the course wants to get a desired result because part of anticipating is what's the result there's what's going to be and get things going once they have an embraced result so that people have bought into it that it's actually going to be supported so there's room for all of those really well explained linda bravo and that's a magnificent contribution to type because it'll really help some people figure out their type to be able to know the general categories of what they might relate to more so you made it more understandable you took a really large concept and you made it digestible so thank you for that thank you welcome well it's actually a really good entree because people get it right away and one of the things that david kersey contributed and i built that off of some things he contributed he said if we took um you know some types are role directive and some are role informative meaning that some people are really comfortable with telling people what to do and some people are comfortable with informing and then leaving the option to act to them so that's part of how an interaction styles got started is we started i put tape on the floor and i made a matrix and then i would have people i would talk about that directing and informing and i would have people go stand in that in that place and then there was another dimension that intersected with that which is that was he said that one year at a conference the next conference he talked about um initiating and responding which is you know making the first move in a relationship or waiting to see what what the relationship's going to be like before you start to interact and that relates somewhat to extroversion and introversion so it's pretty easy for people to get but it's not the same thing it's really about making that first move how comfortable are you so that then i would put people you know they're in the matrix so to speak according to those things and then that was usually laid in a workshop and by that time i could make up stories about the people and what they might be like and so that's how we started with it and sometimes you could do a day with the team you could have discussions for a whole day on directing and informing just be prepared to unpack and facilitate a lot of conflict because there's probably already been a lot of conflict with that so yeah that is fascinating indeed and so linda i would like to ask you a bit about the factors that contribute to how certain types show up a little differently why are there different flavors of intp that exist what contributes to these variations oh wow one of my passions is helping people get to their best fit so a lot of times it's an instrument that leads people astray because they wind up responding for a variety of reasons could be the instrument isn't well developed and so that's you know one of the things is the instrument itself when you use an instrument but when it gets down to giving people good descriptions and they can identify what fits them they still sometimes have a you know a bit of a of a challenge and if you were say just doing interaction styles as an intro a lot of times you know someone who has an in-charge role may have learned that if they don't tell people what to do things don't get done so they've adapted some in-charge behaviors or maybe they they haven't been this happens within charge those women with an incharge preference oftentimes wind up having to shut it down and stuff it because that's how women are not supposed to behave in the particular culture you're in so one of the things that affects our ability to think about who we are is the context that we've been in and whether or not we were acceptable in that context so whether whether who we are uh got kind of squashed which is a kind of trauma trauma in general makes a big difference so in order to survive in traumatic situations sometimes you you stuff all of who you are and it doesn't come out for a while um so so now i forgot what your question was yeah it was what makes one intp different from another int what causes different flavors or different combinations of a type okay so there's several things i think it'd be good if i show this graphic yeah so here's here's the what we come into the world with you know like there's what's called the zeitgeist right now from covid for example there's a certain kind of zeitgeist a tenor of the time um the structures that are there now organizations different the ways organizations are structured for example the way families are structured there are cultural memes they're like themes that are there in the culture and then there are systems that are in place that sort of affect who we are but we have a core self that that's who we are at our core and i see that as a template that's there when you're born uh when you're conceived i suppose um and and some of that shows up in the way um our brains are wired and and the way the way our physiology is so there's the something that's there at the core and so when we're working with personality patterns we're trying to help people understand what's at their core and sometimes that's quite a big job and when they come into the world there are all of these things going on and you know those situations happen you know so they have a family with a particular configuration where someone fits and and so they grow up really fine and you know with no you know they feel good about who they are so for example i had a friend who had a friend who would come home from school and she would explain to her mother how all these things that she knew and her mother said you don't have to explain those things this person had infp preferences and so there was a family where that she fit her parents had nf preferences both of them and then there was her brother who had a different set of preferences sp preferences for example and he didn't quite fit you know so she was able to notice some differences in in their development she was one of my faculty members at the time and shared that so we have situations and then you know other things happen all kinds of things and so we respond to these situations with our current behavior and this is something that we are very we can be very adapt at and we have a contextual self so there's this contextual self that is the way we are in a particular context so context is a big variable in terms of our development and how we express ourselves so the context puts all this pressure on us to develop in a certain way however the core self has a road map for development and it says no develop this way so you know you don't have to teach a baby how to walk usually babies pull themselves up they start you know they start developing them so they fall down a whole lot but they you know they take their first steps they learn they crawl they start talking usually and it helps when they have bottles of people talking to them so you know they get the the learning language but but there is this core self that wants to emerge and then there is this external pressure and what happens with that is we have our tendencies to adapt and grow in response to these pressures and out of that then we have what we call our developed self now i tell people when i'm doing a workshop or a one-on-one thing that that your developed self is who you are you're not just your core self and you're not just your contextual self and and so what we're looking for uh well and there's a ring i would put around there now if i were going to redo this graphic i'd put another little ring around that which is the culture because culture is an influence that's laid down very very early and it was a one of my colleagues from years ago when culture started to be something that organizations trained in and she's the one that said she would draw a little circle around there and put in culture because she worked for the world bank and she saw how culture really influenced like one of her colleagues you know they would talk and work together on developing programs and things like that as equals the minute they walked into the bosses you know to their supervisor his behavior instantly changed he came from i think an eastern culture where power distance was a big a big thing you know and so you respect like respecting your elders you you show respect when there's a distance in in power and that that that didn't affect who he was as his core and and so what we have is a constant core and that's what we're trying to look for so people some people think type changes i think the measurement of type changes i can tell you i'm 70. oh dear wait a minute 77 i think so i've only been that for a couple weeks so i can't remember but anyway so so all of these years i've had lots of practice regardless of how much development i've had like i'm kind of known for creating a learning community that feels really safe for instead of it just being didactic for intp preferences you wouldn't expect that but i've had a lot of development a lot of coaching a lot of therapy you know training as a therapist um and a lot of learning from my daughter who has enfj preferences and affiliating with people with extroverted feeling preferences so you know i learned those things but when i get stressed i'm back at the intp preferences that's constant that doesn't go away and i can almost always identify that my stress or momentary depression or whatever it might be is related to feeling overwhelmed like there's so much more new to learn and so it's the poor is constant and i've i've seen that in many many people that they they develop over time because i've you know had contact with them some people develop more than others for some reason and who knows why anyway so that's this is my little graphic that i like to to help people put a frame around what we're doing and there are so many things that influence you know externally how we develop and who we are that was a brilliant graphic linda i love the idea of how the core self plus the contextual self equals your developed self is true because you are both a platter of nature and nurture and that's a beautiful way of describing it yeah and and and we're starting to undertake um one of our students is um [Music] her field of study has been culture and then we have some advanced some students who've been with us for a while who have the same type preferences but they you know one one is let's say one is from the middle east and one is from here from the us and so we're pairing people up getting them talking of another one from france or belgium sorry french french speaking belgium and another you know and and people from the us and so we're starting to see if they can articulate what's what how that's impacted their type preferences i don't know where this study is going to go i don't know how long it will take but you know the family you grow up in if you're you know i grew up in the midwest in a farming community i got my degree my well no i have my first two years of college in in kansas you know so um there are a lot of things that i can can look back and say those those actually influence who i am as much as as someone say in new york so oftentimes for example when i'm describing interaction styles people from the south have that there's southern united states have you know there's a politeness there's a there's they tend to use informing language whether that's their preference or not and people in new york city is boom boom boom boom boom more directing language you're going to see so even even like where you grow up and and that kind of culture or it could be the family culture and so you know you could come from china and have a family that grew up in china and so that tight knit family could make a big difference in terms of the influences you have and dario nardi uh well i always thought that you know your first developmental task is to is is do i get to be me that's the first thing you're confronted with in a way the minute you start to do anything you know it'll either be allowed or not and and one of the things dario nardi had a theory of development that he he looked at and he called that you know that question do i get to be me um is the first also the first step and so there are things that happened when your environment says no you don't get to be me you have a couple choices you say i'm going to be me no matter what or you adapt and so you can do that with all of these stages of development where you say i'm going to be me no matter what or i'm going to take on this new behavior and my guess is that's not usually a conscious choice so and then there are there are what we're finding with the students that are coming to us these days for training and the certifications um [Music] is a lot of them are [Music] over 50 some of them are younger but a lot of them are in later stages of development so that some of them may have for example a theorist pattern but they have they have a catalyst look to them because they have more of a for those of you who are thinking letters nf pattern and nt but um the the the catalytic part of the catalyst theme looks very much like one of the later stages of consciousness or some layers where it's more about the we we you know who we are collectively and then if you're in a collectivist culture and or an individualist culture and i'm not sure what's going on in the world right now and how how that's all going to shift i mean what flashed in my head was was singapore do you know that that that how much of the old guard is collectivists and how much of the those who are rebelling against it are no we have we need to have a new way to do things so it's more individualistic but i don't know about that just lots of questions i know enough to have lots of questions not many answers fascinating and so you mentioned terms like the theorist and the catalyst and so i'm wondering if you could bring us through essential motivators so um david kersey identified um he called them temperament when i did my dissertation i had to read a whole bunch of books that were written in the 1920s and the and i think and i also researched more and more and i found out that there were two two strains of thought that went back to i think that's plato or galen and they talk about the humors and one of those they and both of them were called temper both of those kersey had one train of thought and the other one had another and they both called them temperament so when i was following kersey's uh and that's what i was trained in and i learned all kinds of things about in a deep deep way about each of the four temperament patterns and um he called them was it artisan guardian yeah artisan guardian idealist and rational right and so um in business people didn't think we needed idealists here we need realists and um everybody wanted to be rational and um who needs artisans and that was seen as just birth layers not not you know not ceos not not heads of human resources not psychiatrists and you know all kinds of people that you might not expect and um the only one that seemed to work was the guardian for for the sj i think we called them guardians well anyway so we we um we found a lot of bias going into organizations using those terms and so we decided to change the terms and we we i'm still not happy with theorists but anyway and so and also what happened with when david kersey developed this he linked it to the myers-briggs he was given the myers-briggs back before it was really and never been published yet really it's just being tested and read the descriptions and and he came out intp and he said oh my gosh this woman's been following me around all my life so he he really liked isabel meyer's work she liked his work as well so anyway we decided to change the names and and to find names and i wound up not really liking theorists but we couldn't find one that we liked better we wanted to have the least amount what's what could what would get at the essence of the pattern and what would have the least amount of bias triggering so we came up with stabilizer for guardian or and in the myers-briggs world that was sj s and j preferences and um for what he called artisan we've called them improviser because the gift is to turn on a dime and improvise solutions to problems that's the main tactical gift of the improviser okay so let me talk a little bit about those two if i give the rest of the names so that would be s and p in the type code so extraverted sensing so those with the preference those which who have the improviser pattern of tactical intelligence that their their core need is to be free to act on on whatever's going on at the moment and to have an impact and to get a result now you might think that that's like you know tell a joke people are going to laugh you know you get a response it might be um solving but but it's also quiet it can be you know you solved this problem you had an impact and it might be quietly working on building a software working and coding and you know you've got a tangled mess and you sort it all out or you create an elegant piece of code that solves the problem really quickly is that you know the ability to improvise solutions no really and and to get satisfaction from that then there's the um the stabilizer which is what we call guardian and and that's to and and their preference is sj which is introverted sensing which some people call stabilizing so they bring stability because what they want is a need is for the world to go on and their talent is for logistics for getting everything in place so that things go right and things don't go wrong could be information doesn't get in the wrong hands it could be all kinds of all kinds of of making sure that things go right and things don't go wrong providing support protection taking care of people they're not the only ones that take care of people by the way improvisers and the rest of us do too so those are the those are those are two of the patterns so we describe each pattern by the way in terms of the core psychological need and that's what you really have to have in order to be satisfied so let's talk about theorists i'll give an example from me and something i said earlier so the theorist has this core psychological need to be competent and knowledgeable now those with an improviser pattern like to do a skillful performance but for the improviser it's to be competent to have a whole toolkit of competencies things that they're quite capable of doing and to continually improve those competencies and to be knowledgeable so those are the the core psychological needs and the talent is what we call strategy so strategy is thinking of things that no one's thought of it can have two two forms one is for seeing something where you're gonna you know where you're gonna go and then what else falls in place is what it's gonna take to get there another form of strategy is thinking of all the things that might impact a an attempted solution so it's not necessarily quite as visionary in a way as it is about problem-solving but in a different way than that than the the improviser so when i said watching myself over time and all of the changes for me is always my stressor is always that i haven't been competent enough now i get stressed if i offend people and i feel like i've been a bad person or i get stressed when i can't get all the work done or when i've been lazy or all kinds of other things but the ones that are really devastating is where i feel like i don't know enough yet so the good news is you can you know i can always learn but anyway okay well so for the last one that's the the catalyst and this is really what what he called the idealist and we had a problem with idealists because they were you know people said we don't need idealists around here we need realists so it became a bias i i experienced that in a workshop somebody else was doing that i witnessed so catalyst the word itself means that from chemistry this is all i know about chemistry is that you put something in there it speeds up the interaction but doesn't become a part of it you know so so the the goal for the catalyst is to help people grow and develop to transform situations and people and maintain their own integrity because what they need is to have a sense of unique identity and also have a sense of purpose and i think finally finally the world has come around to put purpose up there with a bunch of other things you know because now what we're realizing in many places in our society the way the world is now is that you have to have a purpose purpose is what will make you thrive and so we have an organization that uh several a couple of organizations that focus on as for-purpose enterprises and they take a lot of energy and attention on what is our purpose not just to make money but what is our purpose and so i find a lot of people doing purpose work right now so and oftentimes when people come to me for the courses and i do a one-on-one interview and help them be sure they you know where where are they on their best fit so i get to know them but also to help them be clear or when people are still confused i often ask them if they've done purpose work because purpose work means that you've asked yourself those questions and come up with this there's some various good processes for that um come up with really a realization of what your purpose is because once you find your purpose you have lots of energy so so and and david cruzey called the talent of the this uh catalyst pattern to be um diplomacy um this is not like political diplomacy this is about uh knowing what to say to make someone feel good to help them grow and develop even and to build really really and the negotiation is getting people to agree on something that's tactical diplomacy is getting people to resolve the real conflicts going on and come to some solution so those are the four essential motivator patterns and there are four variations of each one there are four variations of each one well yeah so we have 16 personality types oh okay i was like oh more to learn okay well yeah for example my pattern is we gave names to each of the 16 types so my pattern is designer theorizer so people see my theorizing they don't necessarily might see my designing and i noticed one time that i hadn't been doing much designing i'd been doing mostly teaching and facilitating and then the logistics behind running the company and all that and developing those courses and and it was really that that was what i was missing was missing that so i don't remember all the names dario nardi and i came up with them they're two words the first one people don't usually other people might not see but you would recognize it in yourself and then there's the other one so those are four patterns now you can look at those patterns through a cognitive dynamics lens or the eight function lens and see you know what processes you lead with you can look at those patterns in terms of interaction styles there's an in-charge version and a behind-the-scenes version and start the course and get things going version of each of the four patterns then we have 16 types yeah voila voila that's amazing the catalyst describes me to a t it's almost like reading someone who knows everything about my life that is my core self being a catalyst that is that is so rad that you already know that about me without knowing me that's kind of it seeing into someone's soul basically when you know they're essential motivator you know a part of their soul yeah yeah and yeah and then then there are all these variables that make things make people look different i know for sure definitely and a really cool concept you talk about linda is the be like me bias that you talk about i was wondering if you could go a little bit into that oh yeah actually i got that from my first business partner dr sue cooper we went through our master's in counseling together and we finished our doctorates at the same place in the same time and we decided we would go into business together consulting and um she had a private practice i had a small private practice and and she was active in the type world in in the local type community and she she said to me one time you know that everybody has this disease it's blm syndrome well now we have new new meaning for blm but you know be like me and so what it means is we we go around expecting other people to be like us you know i once talked to a counselor at cal state fullerton i i was i didn't know what i was doing i didn't know what i wanted to do i was you know i had a three or four year old baby you know married and she talked to me about how you know the kinds of arguments husbands and wives get into you know about how to load the dishwasher and all these little little things and so amazingly all kinds of things are things we expect other people to be like us and and so when they're not then they're you know you know what's wrong with them they're they're crazy they're bad no good failures whatever we want to label um novels are written about this movies are made about this they don't call it be like me syndrome but anyway we have it and it doesn't go away really uh other than the more we know about differences and the more we honor differences the more we can not get caught and then the other one that goes with that is blt be like them and so a lot of times we wind up feeling like we're not okay and that we need to be like other people and then we give up our our power and our strength and it can be momentary you know it could be performance and be you know like somebody can i i the british association for psychological type had a conference this year and i i watched some of the people that i've trained actually um teach and i'm like oh i want to be able to do that they were so good on zoom getting people involved with i don't know just the pacing and the whole thing so i still have bl them and blt you know it's still it's still there um but in a business setting that makes a lot of sense you don't want people trying to be like somebody else and you have conflict because they're trying to convince everybody to be like them so anyway that that's that's thanks to dr sue cooper those are really poignant terms because it kind of is one of the core reasons a lot of people learn typology because it gets you to embrace who you are here are your gifts you bring to the world here is your superpower now embrace that make the most of that and you don't have to feel shame over being different than other people and the moment you hone your beauty is the moment you contribute the most to the world and i feel like that's a beautiful message that blm and blt teaches us and yeah it also goes back to the roots of trauma because when we have be like thumb it is actually traumatic to your core self because you're telling yourself when you're acting like someone else you're not enough as you are and that compounded over time it really affects your psyche whether or not you know it in either small ways and sometimes in huge ways and so sometimes really embracing type helps to overcome some deep rooted lifelong traumas of feeling like you always had to be someone else to be worthy of being someone good in the world and if you're experiencing like some of the people that i've met who have experienced severe trauma that's the biggest message in the world that who you are is not okay at least that you know there there's severe trauma that comes from natural catastrophes and we could also have some severe trauma just just from having to exist in covid in a way but that the kind where kids get beaten and abused that is a big message so it's no wonder that sometimes people who who've had bad experience have a really hard time finding what is their best fit absolutely it becomes harder to know your type when there are a lot of factors like that influencing it and so a lot of people say the phrase a lot of learning is really unlearning and so my belief there is that a lot of life when you're older is unlearning trauma and so when you learn about type you realize why it's okay to have the strengths that you have in a way it allows you to be more confident in the person that you are so that you can make the most out of that and then you can catalyze that instead of yeah and you can really reach your potential as a human being when you realize that the potential was always within you instead of externally located i i think cognitive dynamics helps um not so much well it does help with the identity question you know who am i really it also gives us a road map for understanding what our developmental path might be so it helps us understand and and make space for those other kinds of perspectives and approaches i suppose you know one of the most helpful things for me once at a conference um we had sent boxes of things to be passed out for free and you know that was kind of an expense and they didn't pass them out in their packets so i was bitching and moaning and talking to the organizer about it and trying to you know say well i'm sure i sent those instructions et cetera and he said then and he was really busy registering three people in and all that and he said linda you know do you want to be right right or do you want to be liked and and so that was one of those nice nice not so nice experiences where i had to face that i was you know projecting all kinds of things and not really taking other people into account and not being compassionate about how much stress he was under and you know just being my own whatever and i don't know how old i was i'm a few years older now than i was then but not a lot so so that that those kinds of things help me but having for me anyway having a framework to understand i mean i can name oh you did it again linda you did your own introverted thinking introverted feeling actually both of those and and you didn't do extraverted feeling you didn't take someone else's condition into account so i don't know why i had to say that one but i it just seemed like that cognitive for me and many people cognitive dynamics helps me name something and then it's easier for me to learn some new behaviors if even if it's not a developmental thing absolutely yeah as an intp you're going to feel the compulsion to sometimes use your ti even when the context does not always warrant ti and so something learning type teaches us is that because you are good at your right hand doesn't mean you have to use your right hand in every scenario your dominant function there's a proclivity to kind of want to overuse it in scenarios where it's not applicable right so learning about type teaches us that there are certain places where it's warranted in other areas where it's not as effective to use it so it's almost like you're able to see the correct uses of the tool of your dominant function and the incorrect places to use it as well and that's a really amazing example you gave it's kind of related to the necessary true kind rule so basically there's this statement that goes around that says when it satisfies two out of the three of these things it's good to say it but when it's not then it's not so is this necessary is this true and is this kind well and it wasn't even necessary or kind yeah but the ti is like but it's true but it's true i did give those to you in plenty of time they had them there they were under the counter i want to say what did you think of instead of here let me help you i'll stuff these in their packets yeah yeah it's like when you have a hammer you want to use it to bang down every nail even when a thing is not a nail you're still like yeah i have a hammer in my head yeah and a nail that's trying to hold up a picture isn't supposed to go all the way in that's true good point good point yeah i was just wondering if i'd really answered your question about all these reasons you know how the things that affect the variations a hundred percent yeah okay well there are a lot i'm sure there are others but those are the main ones you know the culture uh and and in the broadest sense you know the family the the region you grow up in the peer i mean it could be just a peer group kind of affected and um and then i think there's something about your life purpose your journey that there's probably a reason why my path was developed to develop what i developed to to accomplish my purpose whereas my husband's not only our gender you know gender difference which makes some hormones do make a little difference but you know his his journey was to not to to develop it differently and at a different time even though we have the same type pattern yeah so individual differences wonderful things absolutely we all have our idiosyncrasies and the things that make us a little quirky due to a myriad of reasons yeah thank you so much linda baron for coming out and sharing your knowledge and wisdom on the interaction styles on the essential motivators and on the very interesting namings for each of these types that you have and how there's a core self and a developed self and a contextual self it is really good information to munch on for those who have an informative and informative style of learning that loves to soak in new information and i think they'll really enjoy this no thanks that was good yeah it's wonderful what you've really contributed to the community interaction styles is a very unique contribution and i think that it adds a lot of dimension and flavor to type it helps solve a lot of problems in the type space estps will complain about people thinking they're te doms all the time and it's because they share an interaction style of take charge and some people think oh in charge oh yeah the first time we named it we called it take charge but now it's in charge yeah so when they see that in charge-ness of the estp people tend to mistype them as tp domes but they know their estps so they're like why is everyone mistyping me as a t dom i don't get it so well and then enfj has an in-charge style as well which is like whoa wait a minute i thought you had a feeling preference where's that coming from yeah it helps make sense of a lot of variables and type yeah people found perplexing so it adds reason to something that was otherwise very complex and hard for people to kind of grasp which really shows your theorists strength because you're able to take the complexity of theories and the nuances of theories and really combine them into these eloquent solutions these eloquent concepts that you've created and that is your contribution a type and your theorist talent of bringing these really well thought out theories too i i've had so much help from lots of people so um i feel like it's almost everything has been a team effort of some kind so it's really um i i still don't think i own it yeah that is true the most beautiful things in life are created through teamwork teamwork makes works and it goes back to what you were saying about be like me and be like them that's not true teamwork when you want someone to be like you or you are forcing yourself to be like someone else that's taking away all the potential you could have if you both used each other's strengths or collaborated each other's strengths to create something beautiful together the more we embrace our divine design the more we are able to bring what we are meant to bring and the concepts that you teach really help us with learning to contribute in a way that gives us most bang for our book so you you teach us the ways of living that give us the most leverage the most like you teach us the low-hanging fruit of our personality and so that we're able to keep that in mind more as we go through life and hopefully that makes waves in people's lives well then i feel fulfilled yeah yeah a lot of people really enjoy your work linda you're very well quoted i just think not a lot of people know who you actually are so it's more like it's kind of like the voice of god that no one knows oh my god who would actually like or talks like but it's like humanizing to to see you as a person and we're like oh she's just like i i'm glad i'm also very aware that i'm having a lot of word-finding problems these days but all i can do is laugh at myself so um you know i i always had some word-finding problems you know some remembering somebody's name or something and i i figured out that i had too many file drawers in my head so i couldn't remember where the file drawer was it wasn't that i didn't remember the person so so anyway so it's a it's uh interesting journey yeah don't worry thank you this has been a pleasure linda she owns interstrength so if you want to check that out it's in the links below it's a great way to investigate typology through the interaction styles and with a flavoring of linda baron's work throughout her many years of being obsessed with type it's incurable it really is yeah once you start having tight vision you never go back thank you so much it's fun always to talk with your joy so thanks feels really good thanks this is amazing this is an honor and thank you linda for for coming out and being your wonderful self thanks your catalyst is showing [Laughter] everyone thank you [Music] you