Transcript for:
Notes on Edwin C. May's Interview Regarding Remote Viewing and ESP

[Music] Mr Edwin C May welcome to the Sha Ryan Show well thank you it's a pleasure to be here looking forward to it man I have been looking forward to this interview for a long time ever since he kind of popped up on my radiar with uh Joe mcmonagle brought you up several times and his wife scooter and um eventually connected us which I'm super thankful for and uh man I'm just I'm just totally fascinated with this subject with remote viewing ESP Stargate and uh so I just I want to say thank you so much for coming you're most welcome it's it's a pleasure to find someone with the excitement that you already have for this discipline because that's rare in this country for sure really yes I don't know I think it's a growing subject again then because I see a lot of people that are interested in it but um you probably have heard the phrase that it's the work of the devil I've heard that several times yeah just a brief anecdote on that I had a contract for from the Air Force by $1.5 million and a nameless uh senior Air Force official said that's the work of the devil kill that program they took the money back really yes didn't even want to look into it no interesting yeah cuz we're not the only ones looking into this from what I understand the Russians are who else is looking into this actually um there was a Hungarian fiction writer by the name of Arthur kler I don't know if you've ever heard of him or not when he passed away he bequeathed a huge sum of money deboro University in Scotland to do s research and when they first started that uh they did a a worldwide search to be who would be the first Professor to occupy that chair and an American won that uh that search Bob Morris is his name and he moved to Scotland and uh everybody was nervous at the University about all this weird stuff but he became head of the British Society of psychology not parapsychology he spawned about a 100 graduate students in phds in Paras pychology and then Edinburgh University wasn't in fact proud of this and it was on the front page of their website H so it's an amazing School in in Scotland today even how many governments are looking into this are you aware um certainly the Russians are um hung hungarians are with uh not a lot of effort um there's a big effort going on in Brazil now and in R Brazil yeah and uh of course Scotland and that's and most and Darby in the UK a number of schools uh um what is it at uh at grwi University there's a group doing work there who would you say is uh maybe on the Forefront of this right now beside our group he mean uh seriously the um I would say atbo University they're doing very very good work Monroe mon Institute uh they don't do parascaris I didn't hear what you said before uh at Edinboro University they have they're doing excellent work there okay yeah okay well I can't wait to dive in it's um like I said I'm fascinated so kind of how I want to do the interview is we actually we had spoken at breakfast about a a kind of an aptitude test am I correct on that that's a good way to word it yeah on if if if somebody may have capabilities call it remote viewing remote viewing yes so it's an aptitude test for remote viewing so I think that would be a great way to kick off the interview okay so we'll start there and then we'll get right into kind of how this popped up on your radar and how you eventually became sure the director of the Stargate program which I I got to be honest I can't even believe I'm sitting across from you right now so um super fascinating thank you and um and uh but you know everybody gets a gift on the show I don't know if you if you knew that I did but uh so there's yours oh boy is it edible it actually it is edible go ahead dive in there I was just being goofy about it go open it up oh okay little something for the ride home those are vigilance Elite gummy bears oh my goodness they're legal in all 50 states oh too bad for and they're uh made right here in the USA so fantastic in Tennessee I hope actually they're made in Michigan okay hey hey but um thank you that's kind you're welcome so we'll kick it off with a introduction and this might take me about 30 minutes to B to get through because you have such a extensive background so okay go for it here we go you hold a degree and experimental Nuclear Physics the executive director of the cognitive science laboratory previously part of the es ESP program at SRI International that's Stanford Research Institute spent 40 T 49 years studying psychic research you were the previous director of the US government's program to apply ESP to matters of National Security interest also known as Stargate in 19 1996 she founded Laboratories for fundamental research which is still active today the author of over 90 peer-reviewed papers and over 300 technical reports you've given public talks about intelligence collection at the World War II famous site Bletchley Park in the UK presided over 70% of the funding 22 million and 80 85% of the data collection for government for the government's 20 2-year involvement into parapsychological research accumulated over 12 years experim experience in experimental Nuclear Physics research fluent in a variety of 3G and 4G computer languages including F4 Tran IDL Visual Basic mat lab SQL and various machine codes traveled often to Moscow beginning in 1992 and has become friend with the US's former enemy the KGB I can't wait to dive into that and your colleagues are physicalists that is consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and does not survive death what am I missing no not a thing well one issue how Stargate came into existence the name cuz that was the last of about seven or eight names preceding it I've always wondered that yeah the one one um I walked out of the Pentagon uh with a colonel who was in charge of all this stuff and he said guess what we've changed the name of the project it's now called Quantum Leap and I said do we have to a Quantum Leap progress is the smallest possible progress at above zero and Stargate was then born as a result of that wow wow why did they change the name so much in the beginning well because these were unclassified names and it was it's part of security to keep it secure okay there was center lane um gr flame and a whole bunch of stuff like that interesting interesting I'm nervous about this test I'm about to take oh don't be it won't hurt at all promise what if I flunk it probably will most people do don't worry about it oh man now there I want to give you a little I want to give you a little background about it when we humans and I presume you're a human some of my friends are questionable that with regard to me but but most humans have multiple conversations going on at the same time in their head MH uh you're worrying about the lighting and all that and you're having a conversation with me I'm thinking well gee what am I going to do for dinner and I hope this thing doesn't go too long that kind of internal conversation but it's not relevant for what's going on at this moment so we we uh edit it out of our cont what comes out of our mouth we all do that it's just part of being human and so why not allow someone trying to be psychic to to do the same kind of internal editing so I'm going to tell you a little bit about what a potential remot viewing Target is not going to be for example if you get a mental image picture of ah your mother cooking a hot apple pie and it's cooling on the counter in the kitchen please please don't tell me about it because there's no food in this target pool there's no indoor sites by this part there are no people here there are no buildings I mean there are no uh inside shots and so on there's no um human artifacts like rakes and shovels and things like that no Transportation devices all that stuff if if it comes in your mind just don't put it down on your paper don't tell me about it other than that can be anything outdoors period anything so it only only outdoor stuff that's right interesting so that allows you and it worked beautifully for us to allow potential participants or subjects if you will to have that internal sensor it reduces the background noise substantially and allow what psychic ability can emerge from the noise so only okay so when I'm when I'm doing this only think about viewing something from the exterior or that's outside yeah and I have a a stylized interview with you about that to Aid that so it's I don't know what the target says the concept is called double blind you don't know what the target is I don't know what it is and in fact when you remote viewing hasn't even been chosen yet in the computer so I can't clue you or cue you in some way well he's maybe it should be a kangaroo riding a camel across the desert except there are no animals in this thing either so okay um that so that's the whole idea is to just reduce the internal noise also do not expect a multimedia Extravaganza between your ears most people even our most like Joe MCM mon will say it feels like he's guessing sometimes okay so it's not a it's not a vivid thing which we not like it to be but it isn't would it be would it be better to explain the the aptitude test before I take it or after uh I'm not sure what you mean well would we I would like to talk about what I'm about to do okay go or we or should we just do it and talk about it afterward let just do it and we'll talk about it afterwards here we go yep Moment of Truth well it's some moment yeah okay let me do I draw with my do I close my eyes what no no no no hang on but I'd like you to just write your name in the date and time anywhere on up up on the corner somewhere it doesn't matter where you put it what is today today is May 9th May 9th and it's about uh uh 25 after 35 after uh noon now like any any kind of a job I have to instruct you what it is I want from you so when you're ready I'll give you what's called the tasking what I'm asking you to do and it's very simple okay let me know when you're ready I'm ready okay Sean please access and describe a photograph I'm going to show you in about 15 minutes or less from now oh okay the idea is to put down whatever pops into your M first don't don't overthink it whatever pops into my mind first subject to the conditions we we mentioned and you can tell me as you write it you write it in words or draw pictures or build it out of clay or whatever you want to do with it doesn't matter so you're thinking about it don't don't think about it just respond to it I'm just drawing what came to my mind first which is it should I tell you what I'm drawing you can't short to me even should I keep drawing well no no just all right capture what your experience is okay that's a circle on top of a point is that what it is that is a pyramid mhm with the moon okay above it and then this is some kind of all right I don't know I was envisioning some kind of like circular okay maybe Cloud fair enough above it don't go into that detail okay um suppose you could sit on top of what you called a pyramid and gaze out in front of you what do you see it can't be animals can't be any of that what does the landscape look like okay what did you write I wrote a Barren desert with a couple of dead trees okay with no leaves on them all right excellent let's take a short break here okay we'll come back to it in a moment um interesting thing about a break is we don't want to talk about what your experience is or anything like that we'll talk about something else like what are you going to have for dinner what movie did you recently see did you see uh I don't know did you see the Oppenheimer movie at all that was strange movie don't go okay I can tell you a is this the Civil War movie no no no this is over Manhattan Project Oppenheimer built the atomic bomb oh yeah yeah yeah I can't believe I just see I'm not letting go of what I'm all right so I I when we're finished here I'll give you a link to a Amazon Prime movie called The Day After Trinity and that is an accurate portrayal with the real people that did the work it's excellent film okay let's get back to it I'll retask you new paper pardon no right the paper good enough um and I want to get on record by saying uh the interview procedure that I learned uh that I'm using with you to a great deal I learned from Mr Russell tar he was brilliant at that job and I honor him for uh teaching me that excellent guy look around War inflation recession did you know that many experts call Gold the everything hedge gold often goes far beyond hedging against inflation or the stock market it can potentially guard against today's Wars in UK and the Middle East not to mention the great economic danger of a recession lurking that's why gold just hit another record high and central banks keep buying gold at a record Pace join the thousands of people who have called gold Cod their number one rated gold company diversify your money with time tested 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because we like as humans to fill in the blanks well there's a house there must have XYZ on it or uh that pyramid must be whatever it happened to be so we we'll call a stop to it and I now do a little the job comes to me now the target has not yet been chosen I have no idea what it is so I cannot I'm going to analyze your results bear with me one second here a little bit of homeworking here this computer oddly enough is very slow may I have the sheets please thank you excellent okay I see I can't I can't put words into your mouth M so uh for example here you say um you draw a building and it's very clearly the shape of a building so I have no trouble thinking it's not a kangaroo it's a building so you get credit for that what I'm doing and I don't want to get into the technical details it's called fuzzy set analysis I'm trying to encode what you said in a way that this computer can understand to do the arithmetic with look M No Hands interesting yeah okay you've got trees and we got this stuff here and I'm not going to describe what I'm doing here because this is going to be public and we don't want people to have to guess this list I'm doing here this circle thing that you do here what what does you say here that is a like uh body of water a lake or a pond okay thank you okay I think that's pretty good pressure is on me not on you to do I feel nervous huh I feel I feel anxious if you're anxious so am I all right all right I want this to work really well okay now the computer goes to work by itself what it means is it still hasn't chosen a picture yet really yep now it doesn't pay any attention to what I put in there because that would be cheating in other choose a picture that match what you said that's not happening in the code it just doesn't do that but now it's going to randomly pick the picture for us this is a demonstration the participant is Ryan and this is trial number one and Target Bieber is the right answer H you'll be rather pleased about it pretty good no way are you kidding me nope why can I see it yeah well lots of trees big concrete buildings and there's a pyramid on top where's the body of water buzz off Buffalo uh actually the metric here can I show that on uh camera would that be possible sure I just want to just want the the audience to see how awesome my remote viewing capabilities are so there it is not bad for first attempt actually quite good we have a metric called um figure of Merit and the way that is uh there are 300 photographs in here this could have been anyone any one of them and we had a team of people like nine people encode them in such a way that a computer could understand them it's called technically called a fuzzy set and let's not go there any further but that's been pre-coded so what I did was to get a fuzzy set of your response and then the computer does a VIN diagram oh not technically but something like it said how how close is your description two things that it asks how accurate was your response in other words of all the things in the Target what percentage did you get right the answer to that question is about 50 53% of what you said was correct in the Target but that isn't enough I want out of all the things that you said um what percentage of what you said was correct I mean see the difference one is what percentage of the target did you get and the other part is what percentage of what you said was right I mean maybe you said everything was correct no um um actually you said 52% of what you said was correct so the product of those two numbers is what we call the figure of Merit and when that's above a certain threshold and when we use this to make money on the market place uh that uh threshold is 0452 your number was uh. 28 wasn't good enough to bet bet money on good but only about 20% of Joe's is or 20% of Angela Ford's are no kid it's a very high in fact it almost never misses above when it's that good of remote viewing so congratulations Sean I'm really pleased you did a damn good job of it so what is this so if I was what would you have me do next go on with the interview if I was if I was if you were looking at me to see if I had these capabilities would that be a let's move on to the next test or would that be a but not right away thanks for showing up if we need you we'll be in contact not quite I mean tell me why it would be a mistake to have you do it again right now because I would overthink it not only that one has to ask the musical question from where does the information arise and and we my colleague and I have been worrying about that a long long time and that is did you get it from looking at into the future and seeing the picture another precognition and if you did that but you know uh 20 minutes from now you have a different picture how would you be able to sort that out in your mind which when which precognition pays attention to it no so uh we only collect data like for with Angela Ford uh two sessions a week two sessions a week yeah that that fast of sessions wow actually the fastest one one of our participants is a psychologist named Nevin and I say okay here's please ask this and describe the same thing I just said to you so he said oh there's a tree in a path I quit it was over in about 3 seconds of it there's got to be something more but no that's exactly all that was there he just nailed it no hidden yeah so what so I got a 50% on the like a 53% I believe you said on the drawings and a 52% on what I said was actually in the photograph yeah so what would what would be a close the book don't contact us we'll contact you thanks for showing up well if if never on a single issue like this okay giveing a hint I don't know if Joe would like this but it's the data um I have something close to, 1500 remote viewings done by by Joe and uh it's uh they five pictures are chosen only one is the right answer uh at each trial and so there's a 20% chance of getting it right by luck alone mhm uh his score is 44% hit rate statistically that's off the charts but think about it that means 56% of the time he blows it mhm interesting and he's one of the best people we got interesting so how was it was it fun I want to do it again no I'm not going to let you I know I know we can do I'll tell you I can do this in fact I work primarily through Zoom now I've got a woman in Milan Italy who's a Cracker Jack at this no kidding so I do the interview over you know and then she sends me the response by email and I do the same thing I just did with you so is this is this some sort of a hobby for somebody like that or what do they do with it now well what she does uh she works with some people in finding lost people people who have disappeared okay I think Joe probably told you that that he worked for the Japanese on exactly that issue but she does it for someone else doing the same sort of thing interesting is this stuff still within government I know that the the project shut down I would love it to be and um probably is a good time to dig dig into that a bit a Navy SEAL Who Remain name nameless um invited us to try to restart Stargate this was after Stargate was closed and it it never actually happened um but for technical reasons but I think what's interesting is that um what do you mean technical reasons um the person in charge uh I don't want to mention her name it was an intelligence officer in in the in Hawaii and um there were other reasons I wanted to put her out of business so it just the money didn't come forward and we actually didn't do the experiment but it it turns out that the Working Class People not the managers like the Intelligence Officers love this stuff it works extremely well for them that answers questions that couldn't get by normal intelligence means the problem is we try to get it started again at the management level you know flag officer level kill it they wouldn't take it interesting can I ask when that Navy SEAL invited you to give the presentation was it recently no not recently probably 15 years ago 15 years ago yeah okay so um people ask me do you think the government's still doing it my answer is I hope so but I don't believe they are okay and surprisingly enough most of the money came under uh uh Republican administrations no kidding yeah why do you think they aren't doing it anymore uh for a number of reasons first off uh intelligence collection has drastically improved over the years compared to what was going on during the war and so it's not needed as much um it's often used in law enforcement there's a book written by a sociologist called the Blue Shield and when he analyzed the the workings of Psychics with the police departments and sometimes that's quite valuable but in terms of the intelligence collection World um it's not needed as much as as it used to be okay literally I mean it's noisy data it has it should never like be Soul sourced and I don't mind saying this in public uh I was on a television interview show with um our Nightline and opposite me was U Robert Gates CIA director at the time and U the the the Larry King I think it was the fellow uh interviewing me they in the green room they said you should interrupt and you know you know make it really Lively and um I caught this uh the previous director Robert Gates my moan fear was sitting there I was going to call him Bill Gates so I called him Mr director all the time on TV and it turns out that um he said this all the uh there was no actionable single Source uh um he used the term Single source application uh that was correct that was useful and I said excuse me sir um you should never Soul source information for actionable intelligence we got into trouble that way haven't we so uh Larry came said let's move on and that's true and there were I mean it wasn't perfect but it was good enough on to to keep people coming back very interesting thank you well we're going to move into the beginning of your career uhoh but before we do I have have a I have a subscription account and uh it's patreon they they are top supporters they've been here since the beginning they're the reason that uh I get to have this awesome job and interview amazing people like yourself thank you and so one of the things I do uh for their extra support and love is uh I give them the opportunity to ask the guest a question all right so this question comes from John Paul excuse me in your research into psychics and remote viewing was there any indication of a spiritual or extradimensional connection that may have suggested that viewers are being helped by or connecting with other entities Spirits Watchers or other beings that then transmit information and visual perception of remote locations back to the viewer no no well I I it deserves a better answer than that was a very interesting question um those are important questions humans have been worrying about that ever since we scampered down from the trees those are really important questions um there's an IDE in physics that says if it ain't broke don't fix it so our approach has been just straight Hardline physics physiology and Psychology and Physiology and these spiritual issues however important they are and it may influence people's reason to do this but the question is is that part of the mechanism by which it occurs I don't think so and the reason for that is if it's panhuman uh what it means is remov remov viewers can be found in Beijing China they can be found in Saudi Arabia they can found in India even found here in Tennessee for goodness sakes oh my goodness in California it it goes across there's no cultural reason this does not work and that is very good I think more than substantial evidence that it's a genuine phenomena part of the the homo sapiens species and if that is true and it's a big if let's say then it can't depend upon a particular spiritual worldview because there are so many different spiritual worldviews including having none most of our people are are um non-religious at all fascinating now maybe uh meditation which I don't think that I would go so far to call that religion but way to quiet your mind there are many techniques uh there was a a conference arranged by our colleagues in Brazil it took place in Alexandri Virginia and there were five remote viewers and three managers and what was fascinating to me I went on for two days we tape recorded the whole thing that there was no two remote viewers that did the same technique one person does it by dreaming another person does it like we just did business like across the table other people have tried meditation other people have tried music listening to that first I mean there all kinds of really bizarre ways doesn't matter if you want to stand in the corner and spit nickels out of your mouth and do remote thing that way we're happy with that whatever works works and our job is to try to figure out out what is going on with that what is going on and we can talk a little bit about that later on in the interview mechanisms I would love to do that so what you basically what you're saying is that you think that this is species specific to humans yeah now not exclusively but what that means is there isn't a culture in central Africa let's say or in Norway uh that can't do remote viewing mhm any anybody any human can do it now like any other skill that humans have there's a spectrum some people are really dead on with and some people can't do it at all and most people are somewhere in between so maybe we get into some history before we dive into your Nuclear Physics career de but okay go ahead since we're on the subject but you know I had spoken about this with Joe and um on on on the on the show here and it's sounds like if I remember correctly it sounds like he thinks the same thing that this was kind of maybe maybe we've lost maybe the majority of the species or or maybe lost is the wrong word but we've lost the ability to do this or at least we we we were having troubles accessing it so if this is human specific when I mean what's the evolution of this and how did we how did the majority of us am I saying this correct lost the capability or at least don't know how to access I think I disagree with Joe on that I I see no evidence that we've lost it I could be I don't want to misspoke misspeak so now I'll tell you why I mean um as we we'll talk later on in the interview I've done a lot of work uh with the Russians now and there's a cultural difference between uh Russia and the us one of it is that it was kind of a misnomer in my view that the Russians are non-religious they're very religious they're like six or eight churches in the Kremlin alone and Stalin attended One Church through each week through entire uh years of the stalinist era they're very religious but it's the it's the um Russian Orthodox church and if you've ever attended a Russian Orthodox ceremony there's nothing but mysticism you go there's no pews to sit there you stand around and the priest never even looks at you he's mumbling something incoherent in uh to an icon on the wall so it's very kind of um mystical whereas after after after Luther and the rise of Vatican 2 what's happened unfortunately is we've taken mysticism out of the practice of religious things we don't don't the Roman Catholic Church doesn't can give the mass in local language instead of Latin and so my wife thought about this and I'm digging into it with some colleagues that one of the reasons es is so well accepted within the culture in Russia and not so here is that they're used to mysticism and people here well what do you mean take the mysticism out of it m and frankly our work is not mystical at all it's hard know physics physiology and arithmetic fuzzy sets I want to I want to reiterate I I maybe have misspoken but I remember talking to Joe about how communication was in Early Times talking caveman times that that that communication was a lot more efficient and deliberate than it is now because in in in the conversation was basically saying his language came about it took us longer it takes longer for me to describe to you what I'm thinking and and trying to convey to you at this moment in time when but rewind you know thousands and thousands of years ago it was it was pointing grunting expression and and what he was saying is as we started to travel more and more in groups and safety that we kind of and and and language was kind of developed that that that our thoughts and the way we communicated become less became less efficient and so maybe what he was I should have listened to this before this interview but maybe what he was saying is that because of the over complicated communication that we were developing some of the other things may have slipped well remote viewing isn't so much about uh conversation it's about action M I mean um there was a fellow by name of Rex Stanford no longer with us a psychologist who invented a procedure and basically the bottom line of it was if this is true that it's innate to human beings some are better than others that we probably use it at a level of unconsciousness we don't know we're using it and I can give you a firsthand experience like that I was teaching at City College of San Francisco physics and a colleague of mine was coming coming from the East Coast into San Francisco and part of a convention in downtown San Francisco is before cell phones and we had arranged that I'd pull up in front of the hotel at 5:00 the in evening and we' go out for dinner together okay it's about a a 25 minute drive from the school to that and I think you well to get there at 5: I've got to leave here at quarter uh quarter after 4 avoid traffic I said I'm not going to do that it's a big giant pain and I gave myself all kinds of arguments why I don't want to do it not psychic at all I'm sitting in my office right and finally I said he's going to be really angry so I eventually showed up an hour late pulled up in front of the hotel he came running out of the hotel how long have you been here I just got here oh thank God I have no way of reaching you I couldn't meet you at 5: so how did I do that one explanation is I use my own unconscious s PS ability that we all have to maneuver through life more efficiently than I would otherwise have and there's a lot of data to support that other than just my own personal experience pretty interesting very interesting why do you think people like Joe are able to access this so much more efficiently and and deliberately than others than others well um you could train me get the best high jumping trainer for the Olympics and train the tail off me and man I can clear six inches not six feet no matter what so some people have innate natural skill Joe is one of them uh there are a group of people who think they can train to almost unlimited skill level and you can't do that you can only train to whatever the native skill lever is why Joe had that and Angela has it other people do about one % of selected population have a native skill set for that 1% M that's a huge number when you think about it it's much larger than the number of people that can learn piano well enough to give a recital at Carnegie Hall so our job is to figure out the answer to that question I mean right at the moment I'm working with some neuroscientists in Brazil to try to figure out what makes the difference between Joe's brain or somebody like him and someone who can't do remote under lab conditions if we figure that out we make a giant step forward what do they say it so far nothing yet nothing yet it's a very difficult problem they don't even understand much of standard Neuroscience that's something as weird as this what do you think uh my colleague and I wrote a paper together and published it in what's called sage which is a respected uh Journal Online called um extra let's see extrasensory perception um a multiphasic model of precognition in other words we have a testable hypothesis of how this might work now turns I don't know if you've heard the term sthesia I have not synesthesia it's well known about 4% of the population experience it they U people who have sthesia called cites uh can um they see numbers and color they experience music visually in their stomach rather than listening through their ears it's sort of like cross talk about various parts of the sensory systems in the brain and that's been confirmed with functional MRI and so on so for all of our participants including Joe and Angela and they all have synesthesia all of them and that is a huge clue about what's going on and what that means is in the white matter of the brain there's a lot of communication going back and forth across the brain and we pause it needs to be shown if it's true or not that someone who is really psychic like Joe will have much more hyper conductivity inside the white matter of his brain than the average person will if that's true we're home free so we're working toward that end wow very interesting very how long have they been working on that down in Brazil two years two years we're just barely getting started in fact Angel and I are going down to Brazil sometime um later this summer uh as what's called a case study we're going to put her in a scanner and see how her brain is configured compared to uh baseland people so we shall see I can't wait to hear about that well let's dive into you okay so Nuclear Physics how did we get into Nuclear Physics what was the interest well I went to a boy boarding school from seventh grade onward so my sophomore year I took biology and I thought I'm going to be a biologist my junior year I took chemistry no no no I'm going to be a chemist guess what my class what was in my senior year was physics and that that's goofing around a little bit but the real serious issue I've never had a good memory and in physics um you don't have to remember as much stuff as you had need to in these other disciplines there's no complicated Latin names for stuff and things of that nature and you can remember just a few basic things and derive other things that you need because you're pretty good at arithmetic you don't have to remember it and that's part of the reasons why I did it I got interested because the toys were fun accelerators and high-speed electronics and things like that was lots of fun and I was darn good at it how long were you involved in in nuclear physics where did where kind of graduate school which I started in 19 63 and I finally quit doing that in probably 1970 and I I had a second postdoc I was a postdoctoral researcher in nuclear physics at the University of California at Davis California and I thought I was in academic world and I'm about ready to go to my second postto appointment at the University of Indiana and I flew to Indiana and I told my prospective new boss I can't do this anymore the toys are fun and I'm good at it but I just don't care about the underlying issue nuclear structure and nuclear U reaction mechanisms not nuclear power or bombs or any of that stuff and he said okay we'll leave the job open for a year and I said okay if you want to but I'm done with it and my father went ballistic we put all this money and all this education you're tossing it aside well um I didn't actually toss it aside I'm still using it the techniques when did you work for the Rand Corporation oh golly I was 20 years old for the next five six years uh as a summer student I loved it I was in the earth and planetary Sciences doing atmospheric physics work at that time what is the Brand Corporation can you explain that yeah it's an organization it's kind of a think tank um based in Santa Monica California right on the beach it's kind of a marvelous place to work it's very theoretically oriented and if I were a better theorist I'd probably still be working there because it was so much fun and interesting uh they do everything from upper atmospheric physics which was what I was involved in to um mutually assured destruction during co cold war that came out of the ran corporation that whole idea or if all of a sudden Chicago left the map in a giant explosion we would according to the ran corporation which was then accepted as policy we would not immediately go to war that might have been a mistake a horrible mistake but if it were a horrible mistake uh that's one thing but if other missiles are on the way then we're on we go to war and I thought that was a wise uh decision at that time um I loved it it was good fun were you involved in researching Future Weapons and things of this nature um under Stargate yes we were we wanted to know the answer not the development of the weapons more importantly was U remote view incapable of sensing exotic new weapons the answer to that short answer is yes okay so that goes into Stargate okay there was a couple of loose ends I wanted to tie up there but let's let's move into so you get up your career as a nuclear physicist how did you get into I mean 49 years of research that has to do with the ESP very good question um my boss at the University of California Davis was a guy named John Youngerman and I I didn't know anything about psychic stuff never heard about it at all and he came to me and he said Ed would you would like to help me do this really interesting experiment so what are you talking about well there's a pendulum going back and forth back and forth and the Pendulum had at the bottom of it a really very carefully designed very silver good mirror and the Pendulum was designed Youngerman did all this work not me I was just there and it was had a heartbeat period boom about one one swing each second okay and we could use laser interferometry to know the position of that pendulum down to a fraction of the wavelength of light very accurately so it's a really accurate thing and then we want to know whether people can concentrate on it and by magical psychokinesis Mind Over Matter could they either increase or decrease that swinging pendulum that was the whole idea the problem is it sensitive that means it's sensitive to everything end the end of the story was we had um probably the most sensitive Interstate 80 truck detector in history which was two miles away so we had to give it away but I was like in my early 30s 31 or so and I saw an advertisement uh by a well-known psychologist uh Dr Charles tart Charlie tart uh he did the definitive work early on on Altered States Of Consciousness in fact they he was mentioned even in the movie called Altered States and he said well there's a weekend seminar here by a guy named Bob Monroe who I'd never heard of Monroe Institute and oh nothing better to do I'll go and listen they're talking about out of body experiences out of what huh out of body or it got to be nuts what are you talking about so here's this 50-year-old guy up there talking about the weirdest thing I've ever heard in my life that he gets out of his body and while he was out of his body pinched his girlfriend on the butt and raised a slight welt oh really and he wrote a book called Journeys out of the body which I'd recommend I have it on my shelf at home readit read it in two two sittings and I thought well he's a businessman I'm a physicist I can do this if he can and so I gave it a good college try for a couple nights nothing happened and I put away on the Shelf saying oh it's all silliness well uh I was down at UC Berkeley uh doing straight physics on the cyclotron lab there and I saw another flyer saying the science of extrasensory perception is a science of ESP are you kidding me oh so I wanted to go hear that talk and that talk was given by a guy named uh Mr Charles hton who's no longer with us I'm sorry to say and he was talking science I mean really statistics and how to what double blind protocols and I learned about that from him and he became my mentor actually and got me into this field really yeah where did he go from there he um went to Edinboro we actually helped him uh financially to get to Edinburgh to do his PhD he never finished college but he was a very very close clever smart fellow and nutor took him on as a PhD student and he dropped dead on the scene there unfortunately he had a congenital heart problem that took him away oh man yeah but it can but I mean your research from what I understand never ceased so where did you go from where did you go from there well I met ingos Swan Ino Swan's a well-known artist and psychic and we did some work together with Chuck honon at my Mon's Medical Center in Brooklyn in the department of psychiatry in the basement they had a parascreen telepathy experiments and that's been written up by uh the chairman of the uh by um at Gale University what is dream telepathy um somebody's in a in a uh isolated chamber going to sleep and they're monitoring uh movements of the eyes while the person's asleep so you can tell when they're dreaming because when you're dreaming you get what called REM sleep back and forth and back and forth and so an experimentor would see on the chart that the he's sleeping he'd press a button somebody down the hall had view Masters those things would click three-dimensional pictures of a of a scene and they were supposed to project somehow magically that information to the person's dream then in the morning when they woke up they they had the actual view master that was used for the stimulus plus three others and the participant had to decide which one was the right one and that worked exceptionally well so the view master was a was a it's a it's a round thing like uh with little slide pictures in it all of the same theme and as you it's three dimensions where you look through it and you click on it to the next view of the same scene and so one of those scenes would have been in their dream yeah not yeah not scenes but one of the whole discs of the the disc of a view master was all on the same theme but different views of the same thing okay so there were different view masters with different scenes Al together and the person had to pick out which one was the right one what do you mean the right one the right one that the one that person was staring through while the person was dreaming all through the night oh and and that that worked you bet big time so you kind of came into this as a skeptic um it sounds like I'm still a skeptic actually with regard to mind over matter so-called psychogenesis but you came in as to the presentation to The brro Institute as a skeptic then you got you were really drawn to the to the science talk yeah worked with them then moved over to to this what I mean so what well there was one amusing thing though when we'd answer the phone in the basement at my M's Medical Center we'd say hello division of parasyn of distance on the phone what are you talking about but that was really good research there actually how long did that go on for oh God uh run by Stanley kryner a well-known name in the field who's just turned 90 um and Alan vaugh and uh Alan vaugh introduced me to Ino Swan that's how I met Ino actually and so what was when you were doing the the sorry what was it called dream yeah I was not involved in the dream research you were not involved in the dream research what were they looking for say they made the connection okay there the dreamer is able to identify yeah now the question is how and why every we're still asking that question but what Chuck hon said that no researcher wants to stay up all night it's a hard way to get one one one set of data all night because you you multiple dreams uh dreaming time over the night four or five times each so and you don't get as a research you don't get any sleep yeah so he said well what is it about the nature of dreaming that makes us seem to work so he guessed that it's that's what called somata sensory reduction in other words you don't feel um cold or hot and your body is in a very comfortable relaxed chair so he said well there's other ways to do that beside being asleep so he invented something uh from um the research elsewhere in Germany called geld meaning whole field and what they do is they put you in it's an extremely interesting thing uh they take a picture pong ball cut it in half and and gently glue it over your eyes and shine a soft red light in your face so no matter where you look you just see a patternless feature of the same kind of color no gradients in it at all and do the same thing with your ears with very quiet white noise so what you hear is right so there's no pattern and what happens it is bizarre as hell I've been a participant in those those kinds of studies you know your eyes are open you're told to keep your eyes open and you know it's red and all of a sudden it's dark the red experience vanishes your brain says well there isn't any patterns here we give up so it's a kind of Altered States Of Consciousness except it happens in 20 minutes not all night long and when that when that happens then they do the same thing with the view Masters or more more sophisticated ways of picking a Target the participant still has to choose which of the four possible targets is the right one so when when the red goes away and the Brain sounds like the brain essentially shuts down in that Vision that Vision yes is the participant aware of what's going on or are they completely no they know they're doing an aai experiment but they don't know what's happening outside of their world do are they conscious enough to know that the red light is gone and react to it yeah I've been there during not as a participant you know just to experience what the gfel is like it's bizarre I know my eyes are open but it's just black what the hell's going on now that gets to an interesting point for later on because all of our sensory systems the the big five that we know about there's more these days than we have five um they're all more sensitive to things that are changing than things are not so you're lying outside in a nice clear night no street lights and what have you you see the stars it's really beautiful what catches your attention is a satellite that goes over mhm and cops have blinking lights on purpose because steady lights are not as attractive as something that's changing so that gets us to something more interesting later on about a mechanism how this works can we can we explore that right now or would you rather sure why not um so we argued that if the s in extra sensory perception really is is sensory then the big five things we know is there must be something that works better when that thing whatever it is is changing compared to when that thing is not changing because otherwise that's that's the way our other sensories work maybe the ESP sensory part works the same way it does and we found it and that turns out to be something a little harder to describe is the changing of the entropy of the target system and that works extremely well can you elaborate sure um best way to do that as an example um entropy is a measure of chaos um and things that are uh for example if you put your um water which has molecules bouncing around it like mad and put it in a nice tray and stick it in your freezer it freezes them what happens is that's a a a serious drop in entropy because it's less chaotic now there's a side issue here called the second law of Thermodynamics which I don't have to get into if you reach behind your fridge you know it's pretty warm behind a refrigerator the heat that taken out of the water to make ice is overly compensated by the hot behind the the counter behind the behind the fridge but nonetheless uh that change of entropy that's called is what correlates with the quality of remote viewing and there's no doubt about it now we have nine studies that all agree about that so it says it is in fact a sensory system now we understand how if you're looking on the beach and the the sun is sinking into the Pacific it is well known those photons hit your eyes and how how that carries the information into your eyelids doesn't tell you anything about what's how you're going to respond that to those photons hting your eyes you know you and I are sitting at the same Beach you're you you start crying because you got engaged on that Beach I'm crying because my mother killed herself on that same Beach it's the same photons so all that is generated in internally with each human being but still in terms of the remote viewing stuff the correlation with the entropy is is gorgeous now it's really quite well established what you had mentioned five sensories you know sight smell taste touch what am I missing what are the other sensories that you were oh the new ones yes uh well um echolocation people can to go and and drive a complicated system on a bicycle and avoid all the accidents I just saw I just saw a mini dock on this yeah that's one magnetic field sensing for some people what is that to sense magnetic fields you know um in fact they they worry about well there's a power line over me my sensory system tells me don't be near that because it's disturbing the magnetic field and I can experience it some people have that ability not everybody not everybody can do echolocation not everybody can do remote viewing it's like other human skills there's a big Spectrum have you looked at mediumship ah interesting door there's two kinds of medium ships excuse me one is informational medium you a medium sits there and communicates with a dis disin carded entity let's say and you're finding out what uh what that person has to say your old Uncle Harry passed away and you want to ask questions about it and so on um my way of thinking if if Uncle Harry was a during her life what about the left death experience wised him up any but um the question always is it's really interesting I'm going to take a might a small break here on the talk um there is a worldwide organization founded by Margaret me very famous woman she was in charge of the um American society uh um no uh Trias American Association for the advancement of Science and she inducted the parasal association as one of the affiliate me affiliate members of that organization and they still are part of that so it's a very serious thing and um okay so I was a member of the parapsychological association for years and I went to the current president I was present one year and on their board and all that I went to this fellow his name is Dean Raiden I said Dean I'm quitting the organization he said okay what can I bribe you to do to stay for another year and I sort of said how much you offering me and he said okay we'll give you how about the career Achievement Award I said okay fair enough so the rule are that if you get the career Achievement Award which I got that you give an invited talk at the next year's convention about all your glorious comp uh contribution to sigh research okay so I'm there in my coat and tie and I'm behind the podium and I said look you guys have known me for 30 years and my contribution to this field is well established then I walked in front of the podium and put my hands on my hips and I'll say now let me tell you what's wrong with you bastards and I I ripped everybody apart including me I said look I'm a physicist there is no way in hell I should be doing psychophysiology measurements what do I know about that I'll make all the mistakes that the people who started that made mistakes and we are all amateurs in that regard including me we're wasting our time I would never involve uh invite a student to get into this area until they get a serious degree and some other discipline and I bragged a little bit and then I said said uh it's actually something I'm that's sorrowful and that is I hold held a 20-year career job where I was paid industrial scale wages and um uh benefits and vacation and all that sort of thing Medical Care um and I had no other job at parasoy research and as far as I know and it's been confirmed there's no one else in in parapsychology history that can make that claim and that's pathetic you need to have a way to make a living that way why would you do it so I I don't know if I can say this on camera but I'll say it and then you can edit it out I said you know I've been studying I'm a physicist I don't know anything about psychology but I've been studying Freud a little bit and I you know dramatic way I did it I said you know I've discovered why uh women are not as good uh remote viewers as men well that turns out not true I just said that and I hesitated and I said penis envy and the whole crowd started laughing hysterically and I said that is the right response to stupidity what I said was made up and stupid now I'd like to know how come you don't have the same response when you are pushing quantum mechanics as an explanation for this phenomenon you could have heard heard a pin drop that was the whole point of the thing people came up to me boy we loved your talk I I thought they were dialing the tar and Feather Company to come and grab me and that paper's written up it's been sanitized so it isn't quite so Grim uh I can send a copy to you if you want thank you because it does raise an issue there are three things that we don't know no one knows number one how long does if you have a psychic experience how long does it last and that's really important to know if it comes in bursts of milliseconds there's no point putting in an MRI machine because that takes 10 seconds to do anything let alone milliseconds forget about it and second one is when most particular good remote viewers do not have control over their remote viewing in fact Joe and I talk a lot about what opens this look if we have access as humans to all space and all time and we were cognitively aware of it to use a technical psychiatric term we'd go bulus Looney in a heartbeat You' just overflow of that information in your head so the question proposes then what opens that door to that vast array of information and what closes that door we don't know the answer to either of those one example of which we did a study with Joe mcmonagle at Stanford and we didn't get any result in the study part of the reasons is everything that was happening to Joe psychically happened to him when he was pulling into the parking lot he did not have control over that so by the time we wired him up the psychic stuff was over and that's a serious problem in fact I sent back $150,000 Grant I had to study skin conductance in an MRI in Scotland with psychic stuff and I decided I don't know who to put into the scanner or when that's a waste of money and I sent the money back and we we we reprogrammed it these are serious issues and I've got some experiments on the drawing board now to to test some of them but it's a real tough problem back to mediumship okay oh yeah sorry got diverted there um the other form of mediumship is called physical mediumship and um my colleague sonali bamara is uh main person behind this uh with her colleague in in Brazil um Everton moraldi and she found 2500 or so documents dating back to the 15th century on physical mediumship now it's all fraud all of it and what that means I mean not our fuse this is in the literature people are with top scientists of the day including Michael Faraday well-known physicist uh and the other problem with it is it's primarily contained into one culture remember I said earlier things are pan it can't be in one culture this is in the spiritist community in Brazil mostly okay and uh you know they get pretty clever now my colleagues down in Brazil have spent a rather huge sum of money to redo the experiments and I kept saying all you're doing is making better measurements that had gone before we'll see but uh I don't I don't think it's real you don't think so do you you don't think any mediumship is real no physical mediumship physical mediumship yeah but uh uh informational mediumship of course it's real in fact uh Julie bashel from University of Arizona uh she for formulated what's called The windbridge Institute and I actually wrote a uh chapter in one of her books um they now are doing um grief counseling this by using this method Uncle Harry passed away and the other history Survivor survivors are grieving so the the medium gets in touch with that person dis incard entity if it's real in a sense it doesn't matter whether it's real or not so I'm sorry this is a little bit of information overload for me so the two types of mediumship again are what informational medium they give you information about what the disenar uh that survival a bodily death that person is talking to the medium and that Medium is telling you what the medi what the spirit told her now physical mediumship means creating things out of thin air like uhep ectoplasm this weirdly weird stuff or um physically men uh it was called table tipping in the early days the tables would rise up and it's all done in the dark tables would ride up and move or table wrapping he'd hear people banging on the table Spirits doing that and physical mediumship is what you're saying is that's what I'm just telling it's all fraud I think so according to your research you had brought up the magnetic fields what's actually caught my attention about people who maybe uh don't want to walk under power lines because it interrupts a magnetic field what do they what do they say about that it's a very controversial area uh I uh as a woman I know in Moscow U Natalia lebedeva she did the definitive work on if you hold your cell phone up to your ear like a lot of people walk around all the time is that radiation hurting your hurting you in some way the answer for her research no she got the Lenin prize for her excellent work in science she's come to visit me in paloalto interesting woman very smart she works for an organization called uh The Institute for higher nervous activity which like that I don't know whether that's what she meant but very competent whether or not there's danger for living under a power line I really don't know the answer I don't think anybody does but a lot of people think there must be and they choose never to live under them so what do you think about people that have this sensory oh well they don't magnetic sensory that that's a real phenomenon I mean for example um if you have hemoglobin in your blood which we all do hemoglobin has a magnetic aspect to it so it's not at all surprising that in fact homing pigeons get to where they're going because they can see the Earth's magnetic field feel the Earth's magnetic field in their own blood and some humans can do that also that are better at it fascinating stuff fascinating stuff well Edwin let's let's take a quick break okay and uh when we come back we'll get into your time at SRI when I first started of this whole podcasting thing an online store was about as far from my mind as you can get 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offers 100% Perfect Fit guarantee and easy returns so if you're ready to upgrade your closet shop now with my exclusive Link at true classic tees.com SRS and SA up to 25% off your first order please support our show and tell them that we sent you no matter how you move make 2024 your most comfortable year yet with true classic all right everyone we're back from the break okay we're going to get into some SRI stuff so very good in 1975 you joined the ongoing US Government sponsored work at SRI formerly called Stanford Research Institute you became interested in Paras psychological phenomenon and in 1985 became the program's director can we dive into how you got involved with Sr well it was late 75 as a consultant that was arranged by Ingo Swan okay CU Ino and I had work together at my Mon's Medical Center and published some of our results and uh he couldn't tell me that it was all classified but he said to me you know you're a physicist um GE uh I'm involved in some work at SRI that involves physics and i' I'd like to know whether you'd be interested if I were to bring it up and I said I need to learn more about it well let me go talk to the people in California about it first so I found out later engo threw one of his Infamous tantrums and screamed and yelled so at to defend himself I think Hal hir hired me as a consultant my job was uh because being a physics manager in experimental work not Theory um there was a magnetometer uh that was being used at the laboratory and the idea was that Ango was supposed to use his psychic ability to distort the magnetic field around the magnetometer and I said okay fair enough I'm I'm good at debugging these things let's see what happened so I went and I bought a um few dollar bar magnet little tiny bar magnet and uh the magnetometer was in the lab and I was outside in the hall and I just walked doing this with the bar magnet flipping it back and forth B and the strip chart recorder followed my thing in other words it wasn't as well isolated as it should have been so in a sense I did my job as to show that it it's hey don't put much faith in this fix it or quit M it was funded by the Navy actually so that was part of it what started it and I ended up being a consultant all the way up till 79 and finally they decided to hire me as a a uh senior research physicist and was my Consulting was not part-time I was full-time consultant okay yeah so they hired me as a senior research physicist and um went on from the what kind of stuff are you guys getting into there well um what what we the agency well first of all people think of our program as an S as CIA program they accounted for uh less than 2% of our entire funding really yeah they didn't fund us well let's talk about so% were you on there when the agency started funding uh I was there while I was still funding it but not at the beginning no can you talk about do you do you have knowledge about what caught the cia's interest yes in this program in fact uh it's in one of my published books about it because the CIA released it um one of the things that's really fun in my briefing is to make fun of the CIA which I do extensively because the Congress uh ordered the CIA to release everything now um so there are like five or six copies of the same paper with different redactions on each of these paper so I've got a letter signed by William Casey the director of of CIA where his name is not redacted all the other versions of it his name is redacted and it says you know released by the CIA with this number you know so it's not I'm not breaking any laws right they did it and uh the only thing they redacted in the whole damn thing was the author of the memo to to uh to Casey starting the program and they didn't redact his name and only redacted his signature and you can see that because a little bit of the part of his signature sneaks out underneath the protection wow come on guys I mean it was they didn't give a damn you know they were just doing it all together but what what what caught their attention to give any funding whatsoever very good question and I think I know the answer to that um it was Engle SW on actually uh Ingo uh was doing some work uh first of all back up there's an organization in in London called The Society for psychical research and it was founded in 1882 by some of the top scientists of that era and that spawned a number of sister organizations one of which was called the American Society for psychical research based on 73rd Street in New York in Manhattan in fact I was invited to give a talk there moment to my man management at SRI they did some background and said oh my God that's older than the American physical Society so go which I did um but the aspr um worked with engos Swan and it turns out that engo could describe some randomly chosen Target in in the above the tiles in the roof uh over his head and a guy named I think it was Ken Crest in those days an agency fellow S&T shop guy Science and Technology yeah right um said well if this is real we probably don't think it is but it has Intelligence implications if it is real and long story short it was real who was the first what I guess not who what was the first agency I mean this went to lots of lots of organizations got caught interest in this I mean the Central Intelligence Agency the defense intellig agency yeah I know I know exactly how it moved intelligence arms of the Army Navy Air Force a Marines Us Secret Service Department of State the Department of Justice and the FBI I mean all of these organizations caught wind to this um and expressed interest well let's put it this way um eventually eventually um basically uh the CIA was in deep trouble because of of the uh Nixon Administration and uh they wanted to get out of the business themselves they already had a big problem on their hands and uh FTD foreign technology division of the Air Force based out of right Patterson Air Force Base took up the the C took it up after that uh our contract monitor was a guy named Dale graph and he's still around delightful man personal friend and he was a contract Monitor and so we had funding from FTD from the Air Force for a while and then uh a long very complicated story doesn't matter how it happened but Dale shifted over the defense intelligence agency he left FTD as a as a civilian employee to the Air Force and he went he's a physicist and moved to uh actually Bowling re Air Force Base which is part of the the DIA act defense intelligence agency analysis Center is what that's called in Washington and then he became our contract where we got a lot of money from uh uh from DIA what were they wanting you to do unfortunately not research it's all intelligence collection so they kept giving us tasking to do this this was long before Fort me uh remote viewers were involved no kidding so this so this yeah we did it for the most part until 1970 probably 1979 so so was the funding to actually collect or was the funding was to collect it wasn't to research no absolutely and we bitched and moaned about it we did have we could do some research because we heard well the Russians are doing so and so well is that real so we would do research to see whether that had any validity to it or not what was it the Russians were doing that caught their attention uh well let's see quite a number of things one of the things were um somebody down in um crime had I think there were rats running around and somebody in Moscow was using their influence to change the behavior of the rats and we said okay we we're not going to do this with rats but it's involves psychokinesis so we did some psychokinesis research can you talk about psychokinesis yeah it's means Mind Over Matter uh it's a long long thing and there are two ways two ways of thinking about that one is uh behavior of a physical system that you need statistics to understand whether something's really happening and or what's called macro PK that you don't need statistics like you just levitate to the ceiling you don't need statistics the guy is doing it right so um I argue with my colleague in India right now um there's something called Poltergeist have you ever heard of that term no I haven't what that means means is uh noisy to uh noisy ghost and so there's a lot of work on poltergeist phenomenon very strange things happen and I leave the door open that maybe something interesting is actually happening there um a very respected guy uh at taught for 50 years at the in Institute for transpersonal psychology and uh he wrote a number of books on Poltergeist and he saw this one case where um the classic case is it's a very religious family and with a brand new infant and a prepubescent teenager didn't matter what gender so Arthur Hastings was his name he's passed away quite some time ago Arthur writes the story that he was witnessing firsthand there was this teenager that classic case this little baby boy was lying naked on the bed and he watched a set of rosary beads fly off the dresser wrap the beads around the gentles of this little baby boy and Arthur had to reach in to pull them off what is going on with that that's hard to fake it seems to me that's an example of large scale something or another was that real I I trust Arthur yeah wow wow now my colleague in India who's a neuropsychologist thinks well there could be what a was called group hallucinations and on this book The Last author here is a guy named Lloyd arbach uh because the first version was written like it was written by designed by a committee and it read that way and I said Lloyd can you fix this for us so he rewrote the whole book I'll tell you a Side Story and it's it's his story you'd be interesting to have him um come and talk to you he's a Ghost Hunter and not a crazy one and uh there's a aircraft carrier uh the Enterprise permanently docked in in Alama California as a museum and he was on the board uh to get it set up safe for humans and there are all kinds of funny stories he talks about that that uh whole bunch of Engineers were sitting in the in the below deck um aircraft hanger and uh not open to the public yet they see three guys in World War II military uniform running along a gang PL a gang way high up he said you could see them but you couldn't hear them and everybody in the room saw them and they disappeared you're not supposed to be here and they they didn't answer and just disappeared then poor poor Lloyd got the impression with all his buddies trying to make this place safe uh they were joking with them all the time hey talk to your ghost buddies we need need some more chain we've run out of chains and ghosts are supposed to have a lot of chains oh yeah right right they came the next day there were mounds of chains all over the deck where the hell that came from the story for his a talks I like the best one of the board members was really a grumpy old guy and just didn't want to prove anything and screaming and yelling so they said to Lloyd is there anything you could do not to hurt this guy but to make them make the idea real to him well it was typical lightning storm like we had yesterday here and a tree hit in the parking lot of this an Alam and the tree fell over and crushed this poor guy's car he wasn't anything goodness at the time so what the hell's going on with that and dey's written a whole book about it in fact I'm having lunch with him Sunday oh really yeah so he so Lloyd talks about B he's a Ghost Hunter and not a crazy one you say definitely not this brings me this interview is not going the way I had planned but I'm just going to go with it but uh I just want to say in your introduction we had said that you believe it sounds like you believe Consciousness dies with the body I do and so if you believe your colleague your your former colleague and friend Lloyd is hunting ghosts and he's not crazy how do I re square that round hole yes very good question um and L agreed with this we talk about this a lot that the assumption that this is a disin carded entity a ghost even though they call it you know they call it ghost noisy ghost but it may not be that way there may be some other mechanism of the more normal type not fraud some other mechanism that might be involved in that psychokinesis all psychokinesis if it's real and it's to me it's an open question not true on micr psychokinesis but macro psychos is still open for me but it does it does necessar it does not necessarily require a disincarnate entity that's an open question I might be wrong hey I've been wrong before what do you think happens when we die nothing you think we're just dead lights out yep how did you come to that conclusion well um I can't say by experience yet talk to me 10 years from now we we'll figure it out um done a lot of reading and most neuroscientists believe that Consciousness is a um outgrowth of the of the brain uh an emerging property of the brain and if that is true Consciousness cannot survive burning the brain in a in crematorium after your dead can't do it have you looked into near-death experiences at all uh I haven't but I've certainly looked into the research there's an organization called the Templeton Foundation they spent half a million $5 million sorry on Research Labs all over the world to address the question of near-death experiences and bless Templeton is well known for uh spiritual things like that and they published you can go to their site and read it that the the idea was they cannot find data to support that that is a real phenomenon the experience is real but whether that you know um you know you you see your dead grandmother and you go in the light the you see the light all those things trouble is those are that it's an interesting report because they say those are kind of expectations now didn't start off that way well you have a near-death experience and Joe had two three I think um and he saw the rain going through his fingers and he I think even he saw the light as well but I remember right did he tell you the details of of his near-death experience in Austria he did he was this when he was poisoned he did good I normally don't mention that um so those are interesting open questions which gets to the point people ask me why the hell are you doing this research any kind and for me the answer is uh I'm just quoting Chuck hton actually he said you know we may not be able to solve these questions about do your survive your posibly death and and what is the meaning of life and all of those important serious questions it may be that we are adding tools to the toolkit that somebody 50 years from now will be able to answer those questions do you with what you've come up the fact that you think that Consciousness dies with the body and there is no afterlife I mean does that well Jews don't believe in an afterlife to begin with for starters but that's not why I don't believe in it does that do you fear death not that I know of in fact it seems to me um there was I guess I can uh use a Star Trek example which which I was really loved um and briefly um the Star Trek was going around some planet and they had a visitor from the planet there who was a brilliant astrophysicist they knew that they that the star for that planet was going to go supernova and he was working on the details to stop that from happening and he has a romance on board this on board the spaceship and he says to the woman I have to go down for my exiting ceremony what are you talking about when on my on our planet When You Reach 60 years old you gather your friends and relatives around and at the end of the party you're dead and he said we do that because we need fresh blood we need new people new thinking but you're trying to solve no no no no and uh so he talks she talks him out of going down to the planet for his exiting ceremony and all the relatives come up and are ashamed of him and finally says I've got to go and she says I Now understand well I'll have the pleasure of being there with you so in some sense I feel that way in fact let me ask you this way I've got a magic pill here if you take this pill you will live for the next 150 years with perfect health would you take that pill probably not why because I do believe in an afterlife okay and I look forward to getting there okay fair enough that's a good answer that's one of the best ones I've heard um I wouldn't take it because part of life is the renewal can you imagine working for the same boss for 150 years forget it it's bad enough our our Congress on both sides of the aisle they're all too bloody old as far as I'm concerned we need some young folks I could definitely agree with that yeah so that that's a serious critique I mean part of the problem is you know here you are uh World War II vet or maybe 50s and you you see a problem and boy you go through the process you finally get elected to congress by the time you get there the problem no longer is relevant but you're stuck in that realm MH and you see that all the time and I don't care what part of you're talking about you see it all the time that's a terrible way to run anything agreed agreed so let's not get into politics yeah let's not do that but um you know well let's you know the other answer to that is there's a lot of beautiful things about life family lot lots of stuff but you going up and all that yeah we're all just trying to get through it yeah you know and everybody you know I don't know any other way to put it but everybody's got their everybody's got their ball and chain they're dragging around you know with them as they go through life and it gets heavy gets real heavy at times and and um you know I believe when when we go we leave that ball and chain behind but um but that's interesting you don't fear nothingness nope now I've never been confronted in the battlefield where I'm facing death straight on M we'll see when when time comes but right at the moment no and I'll tell you what I'm doing I'm retiring from s research um the end of this year because um my U how would I refer to my step not stepdaughter would be a daughter-in-law my my daughter Jamie is married to a woman named Laura as a matter of fact and uh she is a a grief counselor uh she's Jewish and a grief counselor at us one of the big Health Organization called Suter health and we become really close friends she is helping me transition and she bought me a book about oh it's a centimeter thick and it's entitled you're dead now now what and what that is is very it's not about Sur survival of bodily death what it is is documents it's a book of of not to read but to fill in so that people left behind will know where your you know what your passwords are what your bank account numbers are and all the details that people have to undo when you're gone I loved it I just absolutely loved it and we we could have an honest discussion about death and it was actually fun believe it or not I'll take your word for it but um wow well let's get back to Sri so speak of death yeah we were we were talking about you know the agency what caught the agency's attention to give the funding who was the first intelligence organization to to fund SRI was it CIA yeah and then everybody else fall was it shortly there after quit because um they were in trouble already so it was picked up then by FTD um and then d d graph went to DIA and they were funding us and then I landed a $10 million contract with the Army Medical US Army medical research development command in Fort Dietrich and the g the commander there was a two-star general and MD and I thought oh man he's got two strikes against him he's a doctor oh no and a a general Goodness Me turned out he was the most fascinating man I ever met we became really close friends and Dian and I were at the uh at when his son got married at the head table with him he spoke end number of languages I don't know how many including uh Mandarin uh just a very clever guy and what he wanted to spend he took you know the term Mier have you heard of that in Government funding no the Congress cannot in in fact fund anybody except a um executive branch agency they can't fund SRI or me or you so they have to send the money called Nipper the money to some other organization so uh that's how we got most of our money that way by a congress directly but Garrison ratman Gary ratman uh took $10 million out of his own Department fund not money coming from Congress to figure out how does this stuff work and he was the first one to say we are doing research here to figure out how this worked now it's not well known and it's not secret um we had did had some remote viewers on board spacecraft remote viewing our Targets on the ground and we want to know whether the the Earth was a shield or not it was not you put remote viewers in space we we didn't Gary ratman did our job was just to run the experiment on the ground let's talk about that no let's not cuz I I don't I don't know any more about it than what I just told you it's not written up at the CIA anywhere okay all right not because it's secret it's just one of those things you try and see what happened how about daily life at Sr why were you guys what were you guys doing on a daily basis having lots of fun uh we cuz we had special clearances that most of other people at Sr did not have and we had one whole ring wing of the building uh second floor and Cipher lock doors at each end that meant behind those doors we could do stuff that no one else could do at s like uh when we had birthday parties we we had wine and cake and all kinds of good stuff um had parties and stuff we worked hard and we played hard um we had Friday Friday afternoon s medium s media Emporium on the upstairs third floor of the building uh a lab we'd show movies uh and have popcorn and beer neither which well we're suppos that beer but we did anyway but that play hard was very very important cuz it it was a team organization and when I took over the team um it was really a whole shift and a good one I think and and they enjoyed me as much as I enjoyed them how were you guys doing your recruiting that was hard because you can't legally in California maybe in the whole country ask her questions on a a recruit to join the research group that you are not supposed to ask does this bother your religious in sensitivities really important question uh I figured out a way to sort of tease that out of somebody because it's really important if you we had we had a an' 06 um Colonel Pete McNeilus sat on my head for four years and drove me crazy he was a devout devout Roman Catholic and what we were doing absolutely violent his whole principles about everything and it just caus us and just a huge amount of grief how would you recruit your your subjects such as that's a different story um the Army and Fort and Fort M uh the big question is how can we get more psychic Intelligence Officers and today we still don't have in fact the folks down in Brazil are asking that same question uh we have you know we have psychologists looking at every sort of Personality factors doesn't matter uh Health factors yeah it plays a role genetics factors we don't know um but none of the normal tests of skill of any kind external skill the only thing we could do to find who's good at it is to have a room full of people try it and do it two levels the person pick the 10% best people in the room have them come in one at a time for eight sessions and then decide whether they're any good or not and when we did that was as much as 600 people uh over time 1% of them uh performed excellently under laboratory conditions and that's frustrating and that's why we're hoping in Brazil if we get a neurological signal in an MRI that's much better to find people mhm mhm so you went through 600 subjects uh they were in groups uh for example uh two alumni groups from Stanford group from Mena they were pissed off that the Stanford group beat them which I particular would be the case men some people too much in their heads um the US Geological Survey Group which was right around the corner and a couple oh SRI itself in fact it was really interesting the SRI has its own internet system and so I started asking 're we're going to have a brown bag lunch we're going to do some remote viewing and one guy forgotten his name now just went Bliss we thought we got rid of those morons this fraudulent nonsense why are we doing this blah blah blah well we had 50 people from Sri sitting in the room and this guy was in the front like this oh boy he did the best in the room this can't be real but okay come on we're going to do our eight sessions on you he scored beautifully and we're still good friends he says I think I can fake it no I'm sorry you're screwed with that you have this ability my friend own it out of 600 people we got six subjects that's 1% 100% yeah and so you know when you're trying to figure out if this is if this is genetically passed on you know what kind of what kind of experiments are you conducting none to try to figure this out none none uh that's very difficult um I'm not I'm not our group don't have we don't have a skill set to do that the folks down in Brazil do uh you you need to do familiar work you have to you have to familiar me within families and we have a couple of data points that suggest like um Angela Ford is identical twin and I had the pleasure of working with her identical twin and at least with one trial she seemed equally as good as Angela and Joe claims that his uh fraternal twin uh was equally as good as he but I never met her she had passed before that so two data points don't make it a model mhm mhm that's where we are what what typee of experiments were you conducting on just regular remote viewing like we just did and what when did it mean that's a bread bread and butter thing that I just did with you mhm have have laptop will travel like the movie Have Gun Will Travel I mean the experiments did they not develop into anything else or was it the same experiment over and over and over and over again for now we' 10 plus years we've gotten very sophisticated about it me I brought in a whole new mathematical approach to it which people have wondered how do you know in advance whether a particular remote viewing is good bad or different particular if you're doing intelligence collection you don't want to invest a lot of money if it's so how do you prevent that from happening and until our group uh didn't know but now we do know how to how to do that confidence calling so to speak was s experimentation strictly on well I know it wasn't strictly on remote viewing but what what else were you guys conducting studies on we did a bacteriological study uh a PK on Salmonella bacteria the m and the dependent variable is the mutation rate of the bacteria and there's a whole group at SRI that that studies that sort of thing and it was kind of funny cuz it triple blind the head of that department knew what we were doing but the person making the samples of uh of salmona bacteria we had nine test tubes and she'd pour them into nine test tubes uh and from the same batch um and label them one through nine lock them in an empty fish tank and one of our colleagues Beverly Humphrey would go and collect it they put a tarp over it and she'd wheel it across the campus to our laboratory you know right by the you know the active ingredient of food poisoning right next to the cafeteria we got to be careful about that but the idea was two two ways uh participants are asked to take the three test tubes on the left and decrease the mutation rate by psychic means who knows what by py by psychokinesis the three test tubes on the right increase it leave the three in alone that was one condition another one was random depending on which which participant you could pick any any three test tubes you want to increase the mutation rate pick any other three any ones you wanted for the decrease and then the ones left over you left alone that worked extremely well and we have a different reason why that might work had nothing to do with psychokinesis what is the reason well there's a variation there is is a statistical variation in mutation rates anyway so if you could use your psychic ability to find the ones that are faster mutating anyhow and say I'm going to increase it there you're not doing anything you're just picking out ones that are more likely to be increasing and ones that are more likely not to be decreasing using remote viewing so to speak in fact we developed a whole procedure and published it called decision augmentation theory in other words PP is not good enough to make major decisions you should never do that because it's unreliable but it can augment your decision a little bit in the right direction that works in 1985 I believe you were named director of Stargate yeah can we talk about how that happened sure what those conversations were like well the I was standing on very tall shoulders uh how put often Russell tar uh Russell and they started Stargate not named by that then Russell left greener pastures in uh 1982 and how left in 1985 so I inherited the the directorship I'm glad I loved it that's a big deal I'll bet you were I'll bet you were glad what did you want to change about the program if anything what was that an interesting question um better communication um how was a very talented guy still is and I like the guy a lot but he just hardly communicated with anybody in anything we used to joke behind his back his right hand doesn't know what his left hand is doing he used to work at NSA and I think that as a as a Navy guy and I that might have influenced him but it was hard to get how to communicate with you and with me I'm the other way around I communicate too much when when NSA CIA FBI Secret Service when any of these government organizations would approach who would they approach when they wanted somebody to remote view a Target would they approach SRI would they approach Joe specifically were you a part of that well before the fort M group were um involved um which means up to from 72 to to all the way up to um 79 about SRI did it all all the operational work and so how I would get a notice from uh I don't know Department of State uh one of the things we worked with was the Korean tunnels uh under the DMZ Zone where the hell that came from I don't know um but some of those things um they contacted either the people uh well they were the funders so they were called SRI and we were RFP request for proposal and we give it to them what are were you were you present during these remote viewings which ones any of them oh all of them well from director uh from 85 onward yeah what are some of the most fascinating ones that just stick out in your mind I'll bring one up okay that I want to ask you about when I had Joe in here he had talked about he remote viewed Mars I believe maybe it was 1 Million BC and saw and and and and there was a pyramid are you familiar with this y I'll let you pick it up from there I don't believe a word of it you don't believe a word because you can't get psychic functioning requires data feedback that it was correct or not you cannot prove that statement okay that's why I don't buy it well I appreciate you're saying that yeah what are some that's a fantasy I you know that we AFF do know that there was a group called Heaven's Gate that had massed suicide in California because one of the remote viewers from Fort me said ah the coot conf comet is coming by and it's followed by a space spacecraft full of lizard people he remote feuded that and they're going to come and invade the Earth and eat all your youngsters or whatever the hell it was and 40 people I don't know how what the number is I made it up but a large number of people literally killed themselves out of fear and I got called into what the hell's going on I was asked by the cops about that that's the danger of making remote viewing without feedback he had no idea what the hell he was talking about that's the danger makes a lot of sense what are some remote viewings that you witnessed that did have feedback sure um that were accurate yeah uh one of the things that the um Department of energy was interested in could we use remote viewing to sense uh directed beam Energy Systems and we had uh two that they paid for $50,000 for remote viewings for each for one one viewing on that problem one of them was called Project ROSE very classified at that time it was a microwave high high powered microwave generator uh on the um um in Albuquerque New Mexico at uh Sandia National Labs and we didn't know that of course at the time we were held blind and said here's a geographical coordinates where this person is going to be standing a week from today tell us what you see and um Joe absolutely bloody nailed it he said uh it's a a um whatever it is I mean I can show you the the PowerPoint on it but he he drew a um in fact it'll bring in an interesting thing up here in a minute uh uh a contained environment and he drew something that looks like a microwave generator of horn and uh some other details detailed about it and he said this thing is a uh testing it's testing uh constructive testing of of something he didn't know what it was and it turned out that's exactly what this thing was doing they were shining this high energy microwave thing on electronics to see what the effects were on the electronics it was called Project ROSE and however uh about a month later we gave Joe feedback by driving to that location and on the way there they Sandia had a u solar collection Farm a huge maybe 100 meter field of mirrors focusing the sun's energy on the top of a tower and the tire was sparkling like crazy with all that and we're stopped there and I said to Beverly Humphrey with it let's put a sack over Joe's head he shouldn't be seeing this because it's in his future and his whole responses were full of mirrors and the target had nothing to do with mirrors which raises a really interesting question but uh he nailed it we showed him the the generator and it worked really fine we didn't another one on a high what was the what was the interesting question pardon me You' said that that Rose an interesting question oh yeah okay in fact I'm doing designing a study now to study this a very effect look let's suppose you're doing a remote viewing of somebody randomly chose something and it was a gas station and on the way to give you feedback there's a building on fire oh my God look at this and that is far more interesting for you to remote view than the actual Target system okay and yeah so the question then is how do you prevent that I don't think you can actually so actually Joe came up with this idea we did an experiment to test whether this business of changing of entropy does that help people remove you and we did that by creating sort of an entropy bomb as it were um that the out that the experimentor would be out at the site and half the time she would pour liquid nitrogen into a bucket full of balls and that would evaporate in 8 seconds and that would be a huge change of entropy and that catch the remov it's like a flashlight in a dark room with some caveats it worked beautifully now um with some funny odd things you know outside a Catholic Church the priests would come out what are you guys doing oh it's an experiment don't worry this big cloud of stuff coming out of this box lot of very funny stories about that but um so but Joe made the point it was really really interesting he said you know to prevent what I the things I were just telling you the tasking was this okay Sean please ask us and describe the first thing you see when we take off the blindfold in other words uh instead of driving to the gas station and here's a builder on fire we'd have the blindfold you wouldn't even see the building on fire and it would take it off looking at the uh and that worked beautifully in fact much more precisely than I imagined because in the middle of this study Angela Ford's twin sister passed away and she couldn't come out to California so I flew to do the finish up her trials at her house now that mean that can't take her to the site but everything else worked just the way it's supposed to work out in California except when I found out what the the S is to be I said to Angela wouldn't tell her said please put on the blindfold and we'd sit patiently on her couch as if I was driving to the site i' say okay we're pulling into the parking lot now Angela and I had uh professional photographs of the site where it was predefined where you stand and where you're supposed to look at first that was all predefined so I would take angers to a blank wall hold that picture for that site right in front of her take off the blindfold it was statis I istically equivalent to doing it in real time at the site as opposed to the photograph that worked beautifully piece of Joe's research wow wow what are some more what are a couple of other ones that you've that just blew you away it had to do with the uh directed Energy System again a high energy high energy electron accelerator at Lawrence Livermore laboratory and uh I actually I cheated in some sense at least in my briefings and I'll fess up to it every time um there were Joe was to uh do remote viewing in8 hour eight hour segments uh saying track this guy that's going to be on site somewhere in the Bay Area and uh uh after the whole thing was over uh we had uh one of the women on our project was a right sitter for United Airlines so she had a a she private Private Pilot pilot as well and we flew over Lawrence Livermore Lab at a high out enough altitude we wouldn't get in a trouble and I took pictures that flattered the data didn't need to CU the the air force uh was funding this and they did the analysis not me but but in my briefing it looks overwhelmingly delightful and I say don't believe this as much as good as it looks cuz it isn't cuz I took pictures to make it look good right I fist up to that every time but it's very very stunning I mean Joe for example described the the headquarters uh the office building at Lawrence Livermore lab the shape of the building and the right number of floors and he got that right because that's where the guy was planning for the the execution later on Wow pretty impressive stuff yeah yeah wow anything else that really sticks out anything thing in in in space CAU Eng Swan did a pro pro project uh going quote out of body to Jupiter and he quot did a quote fly by by Jupiter I said then go how the hell do you know where Jupiter is you can't find Jupiter on a map how did how did you know how to do that so I have no idea I just said here Jupiter here I come and he was the first to describe in advance of NASA the Jupiter had Rings like Saturn pretty impressive I mean what's what's what is going through your head well hold on let me how long I'm Wonder know what's going through your head right now my mind is blown so what was the time between when he had remote view Jupiter and found out that there were in in Saw rings to actual imagery of it I don't know what have to check but it was not immediate it was months it's only months yeah and so what's going through your head after they came with that IM imagery oh that's impressive are you kidding well we did another one uh the remote viewer um it turns out that Jupiter has a whole bunch of moons uh and one of them is called IO and it goes around Jupiter very rapidly it's very close to the surface so It suffers an eclipse every orbit so uh I went to my boss at SRI because uh bull Bevan watch company uh wanted to give an award for somebody with the greatest the most interesting experiment on time so I said hey I want to go uh to get that and so my boss said are you are interested in winning the bulliver watch companies or do you want to actually do the experiment I said I really want to do the experiment so he said I'll fund it for you so um with this participant we'd be up at 3:00 in the morning so I I had I had to the remote viewing was uh tell us and time when you remote view the moon of Jupiter and it's half lit that was the definition of the eclipse time half lit by the shadow of Jupiter I forgot how many trials we did it was quite a number of them and he was right within plus orus 10 seconds now the question is in what time frame did he get that did he get it before the because we had to hire a telescope uh at U shabo college to make the the measurements for us because how did we know when it was which they did for us we paid them for it so the question is did did this participant named Gary get it in Jupiter's time which was 40 minutes ahead of the telescope because it was 4 L minutes away way or did he get it in so the question is what do you think in other words it's remov you faster than the speed of light Jupiter time that's when it appeared but the question is did he actually get the data at that time I think what happened is he got the DAT he he had his experience at that time but he was actually getting the data from precognition of the next day's photograph we showed him the answer and that's really hard to to separate out wow wow some of these things are pretty hard to do actually yeah I could imagine um actually I can't imagine you know wow come on you hear you see why I have so much fun with it and it's challenging and it angers me that we can't figure out how to do this better than we do yeah you know and I'm learning a lot I want to so what's the fort me piece are they an in between well so what I'm starting to understand is is sris Stanford Research Institute this wasn't their sole Focus you you were the director of a program within Stanford Research Institute cor yeah does a whole lot of stuff sure so that I did not realize that and so was Fort me the bridge between agencies and SRI no um well Russ tar and I completely agreed on this that um started with Ingo Swan Ingo was uh as a he uh told me once I should not be his friend CU he's a on Wheels and that was an understatement and he said I hate flying out here to California to do your stupid experiments why there's an office in New York City for Sri let's let's let me do the experiments there and how said sure and Ed and Russ tar said no no no he's not a scientist you need he need you need supervision on this well H said no and that started something we're paying deeply for even now an inos Swan cult that inle went there and trained he I mean he was a brilliant guy but he's not a scientist and there that started the fort the fort me people went up and were trained by all this guy and almost none of them produced actionable uh intelligence so these are two totally separate entities yeah almost compet competitors no our job my job was to do research to make their job better okay and they never opened any of my classified emails well that's a shame yeah it's definitely a shame they could had a much better product when did the Hemi SN come into play it never did it never did mm do you believe in the hemisync not at all the reason is it's bad Neuroscience it's just not right what they're doing how so Joe and I've had conversations with Joe about it because it was um um Let me let me can you describe what hemisync is for the audience yes uh hemisync is supposedly this that uh based on radio technology that if you get uh slightly different frequencies in your ears that you get the sum and difference of those frequencies like that's called hetr dining and that's supposedly um is what's he hemisphere synchronization that's where hemis comes from except that was put up by by Bob Monroe himself and it has never yet to this day been put to a test I've asked Joe that have have you had any neuro neuroscientists check that out and the answer is no and Bob Monroe was not a neuroscientist but it's part of the mure of this company and people go and they have an exord a wonderful experience I don't mind people having experience about it but in terms of whether it improves or doesn't related to remote viewer who knows so you don't consider anything to enhance this or you you're looking strictly at factual information pardon you're looking at strictly factual information that's tested through science as weird enough as it is if I start putting goofy stuff in there what are is there anything else that you that that that is that you're not buying off on that has to do with the remote viewing space such as the H remote viewing flying saucers on on Mars you know it it in fact Joe makes this big point in his book his remote feeling secrets and all the stuff that he writes and we've given joint talks together at at Monroe actually and I love the guy dearly and we were brothers and the question then becomes if it's a study and I didn't invent what I'm about to tell you if it if it is a study there has to be eventual answer to that study maybe it's not what you expect it's some other answer who knows but there's some result of that study if you don't have a result of a study it's fun to do it's fantasy you have no idea what you're doing and so if you have something in a guy by the name of Stevenson Ian Stevenson is his name he did the definitive work uh at University of Virginia on survival survival after bodily death work very clever guy and even he said that he cannot separate experimentally whether someone's having an experience of a former life or they're using extra sensive perception to get the same data that's a real tough question I didn't invent that he did but we've we've to we've taken that and put mathematics behind it to we you can actually test whether it's decision making or something else is going on if it's decision making psychically decision making or is it causal effect and we can test that you just mentioned previous life what are your thoughts on that don't believe it because um the evidence are self-reported all of it if you want to know something that is really bad we humans are horrible at describing our personal experiences accurately we are in fact there are two two uh uh jobs that people do one is a magician and the other is a therapist I come to you as a therapist uh gee um Sean uh I just met this fantastically beautiful woman today she is funny and cute and Brilliant and all of that and you said to me Ed when are you going to understand you hate your mother that's the point that that we in fact there's books written on it in fact there there's even a short video online that you could look at called The Invisible Gorilla I recommend the book written by these two people and they outline all the ways in which we are masterful at fooling ourselves so I'm I'm skeptical about M CU I get fooled equally well in fact Doug Henning was a really magnificent magician and Chuck and I went to a Broadway show of him doing this stuff and it's really amazing so I told Chuck I'm coming back here tomorrow and I'm going to figure out one bloody trick how he does it so I sat there in the center s second seventh row Center and I I could not figure out any of it or better yet um there's a guy um Dale um no no no I'm blocking on his name he'll come to me in a minute and he's a brilliant researcher and uh Daryl bam is his name and uh he was at our house for dinner uh in paloalto and after dinner and a lot of fun uh Diane was sitting at the head table I was sitting to her left and he was sitting to his to her right and her daughter was next to him he said okay I'm going to do a trick this is a trick now I'm going to push this Co quarter that I have through this solid oak table into a cup so it goes clink yeah that's a trick now I'm going to break the rules and show you how it's done so he said it's slight of hand the coin is already in the cup before it goes under the table and you think it's still in my hand all right so when he did it again in slow motion knowing armed a that it's a a trick B you know when and where and how it's happening in slow motion you can see it happening at full speed you couldn't see it I don't trust my observation firsthand observation of anything really we're we're terrible at that and so a lot of this BS online comes from that sort of stuff unfortunately I mean I was I was blown away damn it I know you're cheating but I can't see it that it's happening in fact I went to the um I was giving a talk at the spr in in the society for psychical research in London and they were bragging I was the last on the docket teacher day they call it and everybody was bragging their field research they see this that and the other thing so I put in this 20 second video called The Invisible Gorilla I'm going to blow it for you there what it shows and you can go online and see it but now I'm ruining it for you uh there is two teams three uh three people with black jerseys on and three people with white jerseys on and each team has their own basketball and the idea is that they uh the people with white jerseys can only throw their basketball to other white jersey people and the black team black Jersey people the same thing they don't cost match their balls all right and your job is to count up the number of times a white jersey person tosses a ball to another white jersey person now I set it up at the spr I said you know we've been doing this research for some time and don't understand we Americans are so much better at it than you Brits so they're oh yeah I'm going to cut her F and right in the middle of this 20 second video a guy dressed in a gorilla suit stands right in front of the camera and goes nobody sees them they do not see this gorilla it's called The Invisible Gorilla and I think there were two people out of 70 in the room that saw the gorilla and the point being is and they said you biased this I said yes indeed and you guys bias yourself when you're out in the field we're all susceptible to biases and the book called Invisible Gorilla is very interesting because there are all kinds of other examples of the same problem how do you explain that oh well terms uh you focus on what you are biased for and you tend to ignore the details so you're so focused yeah on you bet that's why who's passing the ball to who yeah that you miss a you miss a gorilla exactly front of front of the screen banging his chest in fact what they do it's really interesting they've done uh eye tracking you know you can put eye tracking on your eyes the people are watching the gorilla but they don't recog it doesn't it doesn't appear in their consciousness is really interesting say that again okay they they can see that um they're counting the balls going back and forth but their eyes are noticing the gorilla because they can follow the fact that the gorilla is moving and they they I ey track that that's happening at the same time they're trying to look at the ball at the same time so they are seeing it they're not just registering it in their consciousness wow what are some other examples of that well one I like a lot it's in the it's online as well you can see this um I come to you up uh total stranger here in downtown Nashville I said I'm trying to get to the grand old opera theater and I got a map back in the days when people had maps and so I'm here and and you're saying and you start pointing all this stuff out to me on my map in the middle of our conversation two colleagues of mine carrying a an opaque door walked right between us rudely so and I change places with somebody carrying the door who has a map 80% of the time you don't realize you're talking to a totally different person even when the gender changes or the race changes it's it's just amazing it's just so un we are not tuned at looking at the total unexpected stuff it's it's fun to watch that happen it really is very interesting Edwin let's take a break when we come back I want to get into some of the stuff we were talking about with the oversight committee good I'd love to how many guys out there are worried about brain health you know all we hear about is Fitness everybody's getting ready for bikini season cuz Spring's right around the corner I'm personally more concerned about my brain you look around you see all these brain diseases that are getting out of control I'm going to take everything I can to improve the health of my brain and I'm going to tell you about my five favorite supplements from Led superfoods that help with brain health all right the first thing I do every morning is I have led superfood creamer it's got adaptogens and functional mushrooms which are great for brain health I put this in my tea tastes amazing who likes vegetables cool me neither that's why I take L's Daily Greens just pour it a cup shoot it real quick you got your daily vegetable intake plus guess what yep that's right functional 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didn't believe in them they take the cleanest ingredients they try to Source everything in America unless they find a better ingredient that's more quality somewhere else I think we can all appreciate that once again lared superfoods.com use the promo code SRS that'll save you 20% join me and my special guest for the next behindth scenes experience exclusively available on vigilance Elite patreon the behind thes scenes footage is raw and uncut this is as close to the set as you can possibly get you can expect anything from off topic conversations Studio tours the final moments before the interview starts and everything in between the behind the scenes content is constantly evolving and will continue to bring you more as we grow you can gain access for just $15 a month exclusively at vigilance Elite patreon all right everyone we're back from the break and we're getting ready to dive into some of the stuff we were speaking about at breakfast when when it came to the oversight commit okay so what can you tell us about what you experiencing with the oversight committee well when General ratman um with the Army medical research and development command funded us he said he wants to have an over oversight people who can overview us um we actually have three committees one was a scientific oversight committee another one was a uh policy oversight committee out of the Pentagon to make sure we were doing what we're being told to do and then we had uh um medical oversight uh we had to prove you know that uh it turns out that the Army has more strict or uh rules on dealing with human subjects than does the National Institutes of Health so we had to make sure that was the case for example we were forbidden to use women in psychokinesis experiments based on them because we don't know about this maybe there's a Field Effect and if they're pregnant and we kill the fetus you know all that stuff M so we had we had all those Masters the scientific oversight committee consisted of 12 individuals who were the who's who of science during that era uh two Nobel laurates one of in physics and one uh from the medical world he was the um Doctors Without Borders kind of guy um their job had threefold one is to review our protocols for each study before we actually collected any data to approve them well it turns out we were pretty good at that so that was a fairly fast turnaround time the second job that they had which they never actually used was um to uh have drop in privileges unannounced to watch what was going on they never did that they never did that no we paid them $750 a day for for their work when they came to Sri third one is that we had to write up I guess my first time uh running the show I had something like 13 different tasks that I had to do this year and each one had a final report and so on um we submitted the final reports before sending them to the client the government agency to the oversight committee they had the rights to uh respond in writing in volume two of the Stargate AR archives book their stuff is all there I published it critiquing us and then they would come uh to Sri and meet in person with us and that was for me a thrilling experience um we went about um close to 80% of the arguments that we got into with these guys but the best part of it was the 20% we lost because we learned how to do the product much much better um if you say were they all convinced about the reality of ESP absolutely none of them were but they were all convinced we were doing the best science one can do in the topic um it it was amazing um and we had one guy on the oversight committee who was uh a chief of Statistics head of the statistics Department UC see Riverside excuse me and he was all wrapped around the axle over our fuzzy set arithmetic mhm but I showed him one of the examples that had no data other than just the example of fact I'm going to show it to you later of uh remote viewing of directed Energy System he saw that says now I get it well I really went after him on that I said why are you accepting something that is unacceptable it was only one trial and you're accepting it and you're rejecting years worth of work on this because you don't like the arithmetic he sort of trle off with his tail between his legs was that the was that the same directed energy thing that yeah Joe had remote viewed with the mirrors yeah uh Joe did all we had actually three but we only published two of them there was an underground nuke which we nailed but we didn't um never went anywhere can you tell me about that no we just didn't do it Joe I I don't know if he actually ended up doing remote viewing it or not I don't recall the captain in the Air Force who was protecting it was done by afac um Air Force uh what's it aptac threat assessment um Center that's AAC did the oversight committee present any challenges for you guys yeah um it was good challenge they said you know what you should do design your experiments that everybody's cheating and make sure that they can't even if they were cheating it wouldn't affect the result that was a challenge how would somebody cheat on a remote viewing project well one of the that was before uh we did everything precognition it's really hard to cheat when the target hasn't even been chosen yet so how can you cheat MH uh but there sensory leakage for example uh somebody who knows the target comes through the room and signals to the remote viewer what the answer is why would they do that oh God knows why people cheat period I mean if you if have you experienced that happening no we never saw that are there any other methods oh sure uh on the geld um where you know everything has to go through uh electronics so the person in the gonfi is listening to stuff uh was there sensory leakage because inadvertently because the cross talk between the experimenter and the and the sender so that it's it's not really cheating but it's a way that results get cloudy and you can't believe them would you find that the remote viewers are looking for some type of a edge quite the opposite you know they have these experience and they're and they're meaningful to these people they don't want to be accused of cheating themselves this is real to them they're not cheating how would the remote viewer experience a failure something I mean I think you would mentioned that sure that Joe was correct 40% of the time oh he was he was 44% yeah 44% so how do they cuz I I could imagine there's got to be some type of a psychological component this as well I mean athletes deal with this a lot of people people don't you know not everybody knows how to deal with failure failure can get in your head you see it in in in with athletes they get into a slump it takes you know something miraculous for him to get it back you know maybe somebody's making bad grades they get into a slump somebody in in and I mean you know just from my own experience being an operator in the SEAL Teams I mean people if you have a bad house run and and yeah you can get into slump with anything right and so I would imagine with a 44% success rate which what you're telling me is is phenomenal um how do they how do they take failure well it turns out that's wholly individually dependent Joe's just fine of it hey doesn't work all that that time who cares Angela Ford same thing mhm um when we're doing associational remote viewing to make money on the stock market or something like that uh she only gets hits 20% of the time that's fine with her because it makes a lot of money so uh but the other side of that we've had people we've had to dismiss and engos Swan was one of them engos Swan would scream at how you're 5 minutes late you're ruining my rise time he would scream at Hell uh and then he starts what does that mean you're ruining my rise time that's Ino saying he's preparing for his study he's getting risen for it to do the study I'm just quoting Ingo I have no idea what it actually means ing required us to change all the fluorescent light bulbs in the entire lab to solar uh spectrum because the regular ones are destroying his remote viewer he was really to blame everything else on his failure except himself and it that came later in his career that's why he he himself quit uh we had some other people in fact I've been trying for years to get Joe MCM monacle and Nevin Lance a psychologist to write the risks of remote viewing which there are serious risks uh one is depending upon the personalities uh you begin uh looking at your own well your own Persona in terms of your ability to do remote viewing and that is a huge psychological mistake we've had to let people go people at Fort me have had to let people go who go to use a technical term crazy for doing this stuff it's rare but it happens so most people handle it just fine I mean you know hey fine no problem I'll come back tomorrow so you're saying that some people that have this have this ability and and and realize that they do have the capability wind up driving themselves crazy how so and why I don't know why I'm not a psychologist does it bother them that they have the capability no it bothers them that they that they failed it bothers them that they failed yeah those few people I asked neevan Lance the psychologist I said nean how do you integrate what your remote viewing ability is with the rest of your life he said I don't know I wish I could integrate the rest of my life as well what are some of the other risks um I don't know I think that's the main one that's the main risk yeah is just dealing with failure yeah if you start believing your stuff too much it seems to me then I'm just overlaying my own Thinking Out Loud rather than any serious stuff about it so you're saying basically remote viewers will get emotionally attached to their capability VI and disastrous for them as well as to the unit okay okay well 1992 it sounds like you started some type of a relationship with the Russian KGB I did I'm an honorary member not of a KGB turns out um I first went I think it was even before no ' 92 was the first year um a a expat Russian named uh her Christian name was Laura V Faith her Russian name was Lissa binaya very very talented woman she worked with kogan in his classified research laboratory on Sai why the hell the Russians let her out I have no idea but she immigrated first to Israel because she's Jewish and then she came to the states and over a long Seri of time she ended up getting a citizenship becoming a Christian and then working teaching Russian at the Defense Language School in Monteray and we hired her out of that she got her clearance and so I went to uh Moscow with her probably four times one of which was all the way out to Nova seers and um she was very protective of me so on one time we were um one I guess one of the last time we were we were together uh on that trip uh I was giving a talk at um Moscow State University she was translating for the students and you know I'm dressed like I'm more dressed now the way the way I normally dress I had a t-shirt on it and um the students are looking like students and two guys in suits walk into the back of the room uhoh two guys in suits this isn't a good deal turns out they were from the ministry of Defense and they wanted us to come with Lissa and I to come with them and we went to uh do you know what a skiff is have you heard that term s CIF spent a lot of time in a Skiffs me too so we went to a Russian version of a skiff and in there was Alexi yurovich sa this guy who I gave you pictures of who uh ran the Russian remote viewing spying program um no slouch the guy he is two two uh phds one in philosophy and one in mathematics and he had a group of remote viewers 120 remote viewers in his program yeah if we probably never had more than 25 at any given time and men and women and um their remote viewing group was called uh 10,3 H and Joe and I both have medals about this big that we're honorary members of the Russian remote viewing group wow yeah I meant to bring my medal with me but I have a picture of it you can see it um and he was never I've never met him in uniform but he was reporting to the head of the general staff which would mean in our world that would be equivalent to reporting to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs that's how high up this was well monitored by uh the Russian hierarchy military Gru loved it um when J was there once with Joe we had a group meeting with a whole bunch of remote viewers they're right remote viewers and I got to work with one of them Ellena klimova who is equally as good of remote viewer as Hal as uh Joe um he trained them in hand toand combat weapons training um that sort of thing and I said Alex ovich what about remote and remote viewing you don't understand says well when the bullets are whizzing over their heads they're highly motivated because they he took him into the cheso war um he retired uh Savin did and we became really good friends and I've given talks to his students and while have you but um he we were sitting around a table after a two-day conference the first day of which we were all slugging down I mean that would be a Russian shot of vodka not this that you had to Swig it in one gulp I had 11 straight of those I should have died I mean I was really miserable I'll bet you were oh cuz I don't drink that much at all uh the next day I was filling my glass with water no one noticed well maybe no one said about it but in the middle of that the way the way you refer to senior Russians is not just Alexa e or general Savin you use the middle name which is really important yurovich means son of Yuri it's a really important part of the Russian U culture okay so in the middle of all this he had his staff he he is still working for the he was still in the military and his staff was there at the table and um yeah Joe was with us and um so I got pictures of of him and and Sabin in fact I gave it to your colleague for you showing that they were completely blitzed on vodka but I said Alexi yovich and he interrupted me and spoke to me the only time in the 20 years I've known this man in English he said Ed we're are friends call me Alexi and the staff went then he switched back into Russian and uh it was being translated by Victor Victor rubel and he said uh I know you've been trying to get my uh organization chart here it is and I know you're going to report a contact report you have to write it up yes sir that's true um what you have to do is let the people at DIA know I want a joint program with you guys and I said on what he said well you have the same problem we do and that's terrorism cuz people were blowing up subway stations in in Moscow and I said I would be honored to to join you on that so I wrote up a 30 page relatively classified document and handed it to the the three star in charge of Dia in the Pentagon and he was all excited oh this is really great because it's cheap a bottle of Scot get all everything you need and um there's you not putting anybody In Harm's Way uh it's ideal and they want to do it and we want to do it and the three star said well uh okay I'm going to Moscow in few weeks I'll look him up and we'll get moving on it so I walked out of his office in the Pentagon and you could practically hear him throwing the the the paper in the in the burn bag never happened so never went anywhere that's it's interesting because I was wondering you know what does the what does the oversight committee think and I mean you're dealing with classified information a lot of classified information at the time I can't imagine a relationship with the Russian KGB going over well and and I mean well that wasn't it was FSB by then KGB was long since dissolved mhm um but I had to get approval cuz I had seci level clearances to do this and I got them and they approved it you bet what did you I mean what are some of the what did you think of the Russian remote viewing pro project was it more advanced than us they come farther along I talked to Victor Victor rubel was in the in the Red Army uh he's now an American citizen and delightful man after Lissa passed away he was my minder in Russia and damn good at it I mean he was protecting me no matter what um but Victor said you know the Russians never declassify anything I mean I uh I've got a 40-minute video by from Russia gazetta um company which uh has a new uh it's probably the go-to newspaper for military issues we were front page full front page cover on on Angel and I there and um what uh happened is is it's just rather astounding that um I gave a talk in English and it was being translated into Russian and I showed the example of this uh of ingo's uh clay model of this Radar Site it did not that piece did not show up in the 40-minute video they published fortunately I have a friend in the audience who sent me a video of that so they're a little nervous about that I had a same I think problem I was giving a talk I was invited to with four other westerners to go to Hong Kong uh U on extra sens perception stuff funded by a guy named Bingo woo that's his name he's very wealthy character and the five westerners were there plus 100 uh young Chinese uh kids kids I mean really kids who were trained by chiong Masters with supposedly all kinds of uh psychic ability I eventually had to go up to Wingo Bingo woo later and I said don't ever do that again this is child abuse for these kids because they had to conform to the Western standards of activity for example uh they would they claim to be able to put a match stick in a jar seal the jar and then by psychokinesis break the mattick so because they sort of believe their own story they said you Ed you can make your own here's a bottle and you can put your own match stick in there so I wrote wrote some stuff on my match stick so I know it was my match and I put it in there and we could use Clear wrapping tape to keep making sure that it wasn't opened I then put some symbols on the bottom of the can to make sure it was my can and this poor girl she's probably 15 or 14 she had it in her forehead for 40 minutes and nothing happened and she was distraught and fortunately there was a guy there uh named Simon Juan who is a um speaks totally fluent Chinese but he's a British he's uh he speaks with English with a British accent cuz he was uh on the British government lers on on matters of of trade with China and I said you know Simon please comfort this girl for me cuz I was not angry with her in the slightest and eventually she and so I have a picture of the three of us hugging each other it was really sweet and I went up to Binga woo and complained bitterly about it but she could not do it and she was distraught did any of the kids accomplish that nope and one of the things that they had 100 Kids a hundred of them and they divide them into two teams on a basketball court and all of the we westerners were sitting watching this happen outside and the idea is these blindfolded kids were going to throw a ball through a hoop it wasn't a game of basketball there was just free like free throw through the through the hoop except I got pictures I can show you from my computer the kid's like this looking through his blindfold it's so completely utterly obvious but what the hell can we say nothing one example they had there and it was a t a teleportation thing there were two boxes one labeled the English letter a and the other box labeled English letter B very clever they had a a an object in box a with a small TV Camera in box a and a small TV Camera in box B and the idea is one of these Chang kids would arrange God knows hell to have the item item in box a appear magically in box B and it be tape recorded by the video neat idea except the kid was left alone not supervised while this was going on and oddly enough the two video cameras both quit working isn't that odd yeah right so uh the guy who ran all that uh said and translated into English um we would like to offer you a job to come and direct our laborator so we do this correctly so one of those rare times that was my ethics were in good shape I said look there are great scientists in China you don't need an old guy from the West tell you what if you'd like I would act help you pick the right person from China if you want me to do that Simon came up to me and whispered my a he said Ed I'd never let you take that job why because you'd like to leave China One Day what are so it sounds like we were a lot more advanced at least in their eyes in China for sure what what were some of the similarities that you saw that how the KGB or how the Russians were running their program versus Stargate they were they they were not very self they were not particularly open about it they were pleasant um so they were there to collect from you not share Y what do you think about the number of remote viewers I believe he said there was 120 something remote viewers compared to what R six well we had uh SRI only had about five or six at any given moment and Fort me wasn't much better so we'll double that number 12 they have 120 or I mean you're talking about you're talking about experiments that were done where the kib was left unsupervised the cameras cut out and well that's is a China yeah I'm I'm I'm guessing miraculously the you know the kid broke you know the come on that's obvious what happened but I guess what I'm getting at is do were our were we pickier or have we just not found the amount that they have found yet what do you mean I mean I mean we're not being picky you'd never leave a participant ever alone with the apparatus we never do yeah I mean that's not what I'm getting at I guess what I'm getting at is at the time let's let's just say would would 12 be a fairly accurate number 12 remote viewers that the US had at the time never at the same time correct 1% yeah so 12 less than 12 at one any given particular time yeah sure okay and and a few of them at Fort me Joe MC monono and Angela Ford maybe one other person produced actionable intelligence the rest of them didn't so we're talking three maybe yeah Joe Joe would be better off telling you or Angela better yet less than 10 yeah they have 120 and never show us results not one result have I seen of their remote so that could have been total bogus well I did have a measure Joe and I were there at the same time and we got to do a joint remote viewing with Ellena clova and Joe she was the top Russian remote viewer she was damn good and I had control of that so I know what was going on same principles same same testing same what we did here and they developed that on their own well I I don't know about that what they do when I'm not there I that was what I ran I had control of everything I don't know what they do on their own oh so they shared literally nothing they never share anything and Victor said it's part of the zist of Russian military they they never declassify anything and I didn't show them any classif any classified stuff at all period very interesting going back to going back to Sri you know we're talking about right now we're talking about remote viewing what are there any other sensory I mean you were basically we're talking about non-lethal future type weapons correct so when it comes to remote viewing were we researching anything else that maybe was similar to remote viewing that I don't know about well there's been a lot of efforts in the field at large parcy field at large to look at remote sensing of various kinds like uh can you separate uh different categories of music for example uh Joe did his first remote viewing ever on camera called put to the test and I have that video um that uh the ABC people uh sent a um person who's a a location scout for movie industry out to me for two days worth of training about how to pick SES then my hand but my I was hands off after that and she chose uh six sites uh about uh around the um Houston area and uh it was CH and it was done the lawyers had control of it so nobody could do anything and so on long story short Joe remote viewed it and nailed this site which happened to been uh a a h a Houston channel uh ocean Channel for shipping and right in the middle of the trial a huge Russian vessel docked right in right in the middle of the trial where there was an outbound experiment there and Joe is back in the studio but he nailed it and he said I hear loud noises from the S I have no idea what it is there's something large there I don't know what it is uh blew the mind of the interviewer who didn't buy the story to begin with but I called up Joe and he called me rather when it was all over and I said boy congratulations you know you did this remote viewing your first time ever on National Television how how the hell do you do that he said you think I did remote viewing on National Television I wouldn't do that I did it over breakfast before we before I went to the studio doesn't matter when you do it you know you give yourself the tasking they're going to do something I'll figure it out and then he faked it on camera wow W do you do you understand what I'm asking are we looking into anything that might be cons I mean remote viewing is it's hard for people to believe it's something that that that we still don't understand and so what I'm asking is are there other types of ESP that we're looking into other than remote viewing that we don't that I don't know about well I think other people I mean the fields there are 300 members of the parapsychological association and I think almost none of them are doing remote viewing what are some of the other things they're researching well there's the goneld um which is remote viewing like but they're they're all psychologists that's why it's called parapsychology so they're interested in you know what are the personality variables that make this person do good or uh someone who is really um creative does that affect the performance in the goneld and so on and so those kinds of questions yeah they're not looking at mechanism we're the only group that I know of that is looking trying to figure out the mechanism how this works in fact Ray Hyman in fact there's a joke the two biggest critics and this is their true names um Heyman and alock I swear to God they're the critics of this field but Ray Heyman uh was a I think he's still alive um a psychologist from the University of Oregon I know the guy pretty well and uh they formed an organization called cops the committee to investigate the scientific claims of the Paranormal it's no longer that name it's just called um skeptical Inquirer but Cyclops Jessica got's a a an amaz um statistician uh went and she and I went to Buffalo to at the 20th Congress of of psyops and Ray Heyman was uh giving a talk at the beginning and he said to the assembled Skeptics do not underestimate parapsychologists they are the best methodologist he's ever met I went up to him after I said pray my God to took a lot of courage to do that said yeah but it's true so even Ray at that in front of those people said there are classes of things we no longer need any further evidence for its existence what we should be focusing on now is how the hell does it actually work and he's right you know when I interviewed a gentleman John Alexander and he was talking about spoon bending he was talking about plants having Consciousness I mean did you were you a part of any of that type of research n whatsoever I would not be although there was a variation on it uh Bev humphy and I went uh covertly under under cover there was a uh course on spoon bending up at Lake Tahoe in California mhm so before going up there I I bought some really heavyduty soup spoons that had the the the handles look like a Greek letter Omega which makes it damned hard to bend okay so uh we get up there on a Friday night and it's three Friday night all day Saturday all day Sunday uh as um food sleep and logic deprivation which turns out to be a big deal so you don't get your head in it and God help me I've going tell you this we're we're sitting with pyramids on our head in front underneath the big pyramid and I tell people you know if you put your bananas under your pyam pyramid it'll be sharp enough to shave with later on um and we got around to uh bending stuff at 2: in the morning I mean uh early in the morning on Monday I don't remember what time and I'm sitting on the floor cross leg it my whole body is falling asleep from my hips down and I'm weaving the tin of forks into little knots nope so I have no idea what's going on there I'm not in a shape to know whether I'm what I'm doing or not I was conscious enough that the guy running the show I came by me and I reached and grabbed one of our big spoons and I said I can you bend this he said oh yeah go and he wrapped it around um not the ball of the spoon but this part of the spoon so driving home I said to Bev B py was with me I said maybe we saw some genuine PK here so got back to Sri and one of the people on our projects Gary Langford um is a meder just himself said do you have any of those spoons left over I said oh yeah get me one so he goes does the same thing right in front of me says it's shock deoration that if you do that and you hesitate it'll freeze on you but if you just keep going you can do it I learned how to do it then I can't do it anymore but I was able to do it myself thus went away my belief that we saw genuine PK it's it's what what was it shock what shock shock deoration and how does that work well you start it like that and if if you start it and stop nothing will happen if you start it and keep going it's easy to bend the it will feel like rubber or or something really smooth and these are metal yeah metal smell oh you bet these are the ones with the Omega shape and he bent it yeah and so but science there is a scientific explanation on how that happens yeah was there anything else you looked into that was that was similar to any that's the only weird stuff we ever looked into it we didn't do healing because you know what to finds healing healing healing helping sick people and um there are a lot of people doing that for example um I was funded by an organization called the Samuell Institute in Alexandria Virginia uh run by a fellow that used to be part of Ni uh alternative uh medical approach uh to medicine and uh so he was looking at these odd new medical things one of which was um a guy he founded a guy at um um Duke University who I think it was Duke yeah in North Carolina that um gu by name of Mitch krof very clever clever ideolog not IDE a heart specialist and uh Mitch wanted to know good question what other things could he do to improve his ability to help heart patients so he had I forget number how how many other things they looked at you know vitamin exercise uh you know diet and so on one of which was intercessory prayer people praying for their well-being and they did a 5-year study they called it the Mantra project and sure enough after all things said and done they did what's called a factor analysis to figure out was there anything in this mish mash of a whole bunch of stuff that mattered and the answer is yes the only thing that mattered was intercessor prayer and so um because Mitch is a well-known Kai uh he got a $750,000 grant from NIH to study intercessory prayer uh in terms of does it actually help his patients so uh it was pretty interesting because what I didn't know if you get funded by n NIH you can't have randomization done by somebody in the project so there's kind of a a satellite companies around medical schools who do nothing but randomize participants into control and not and you know effort groups they don't even care what the study is okay so he did this study and one of the funniest damn things there were solid Christians who wouldn't do this because there were non-christians praying for help praying for their help oh please come on turned out it failed categorically so I talked to KR Mitch KR krof about it and I said that fits our model of decision augmentation meaning that in the five years of you had your people with a bias in favor of this working pressing the buttons to randomize your people not cheating nobody I'm not accusing anybody of cheating but using unconscious ESP to sort patience in such a way it looks like it was a a a genuine effect but it's not and I was since this other group was doing the randomization they didn't give a damn no wonder it didn't work and I think my beted is 50 years from now the only part of Sai one major part of Sai that will survive is this decision augmentation mall that we put together and you should look up you should get Jessica UTS to come here she um I've known her for a really long time her name is Jessica utts um she used to be head of the department at at uh in statistics department at UC uh Irvine I can send you a contact for her I'll do it I'll reach out yeah she is terrific um she has this ability to she published a book called seeing through statistics and there's not one equation in the book she wanted to have a a book that people who read newspaper articles who mention statistics can get some idea what the hell they're talking about and I said hey how come you have all these trees in the damn cover of your book she says think about it oh oh seeing through the trees forces oh please um she became in 2016 the chief statistician in the whole damn country she was head of the American statistical uh uh Association became chair of that and I've got to I'll send you the link on my YouTube channel um she gave it the presidential address uh which was 70 minutes long 7 Minutes of it was her ability to say in front of this Collective body her belief in extra sensory perception and what she's done in that domain I called her up said gez you're brave she says no I'm telling you the truth and it's just a brilliant piece and the introduction is longer than her talk in the 7 Minute section I I thought I knew her really well we were good friends and uh spent time at her house and she and her long time not her husband my be a common law husband if it were um and we um she said it has to happen very very impressive that's real stuff yeah yeah I'd love to uh she'd be good for you to interview have a chat with her yeah would be fascinating so 1995 it sounds like Stargate came to an end what was what was the decision that led to that why why did they end it good question that's a really good question um first of all there was what's called a CDA congressionally directed activity that the Congress ordered the CIA to do a 20-year retrospective of this whole program and if they felt that there was quality in this program they were then to take over the program from DIA okay and um so they hired the American Institutes of research to do the study supposed to be a 20-year retrospective and they produced an i What's called the air part American Institutes of research reports great big thick document they wouldn't give me a copy of it um okay um they gave Jessica a copy she they had Jessica and Ray Heyman as as counter to each other a skeptic and a Believer and um I walked into Senator Cohen's office at the time he was still Senator and I said hey uh I don't have a copy of the a report said oh here's mine take it he then said you think you can refute this and I said well yeah and um he said we write an article and pull no punches which I did and got it published in the Journal of Paras pychology everything I said in that article was wrong um they only looked at one year over instead of 20 that was correct but that's not why they closed the program down and it wasn't until we had released by the CIA all this stuff they they said why the program closed what happened was and we have the quotes and it's in volume four of the Stargate archives um that the Cold War was basically over and the Congress was saying we've got all this money going to the Intel Community we don't need to have that much money anymore so the Congress ordered CIA to slim down get rid of all these small programs and if you don't do that they threaten to close the CIA actually not our view that's in in released by the CIA themselves and I think the reason it closed is that we just were on the chopping block along with a whole bunch of other programs negating everything I said in my original paper man what do you think of that well when a guy from um the Pentagon and I spent with Joe 10 years trying to get Stargate started again uh um the working STS and defense analysts and so on love the product that we had but upper management said no and I think that's too bad especially with terrorism these days mhm now I'm convinced that no way in hell are they doing it secretly you don't think so I do not not my clearances have all dissolved so I I I don't really know why do you think they're not doing this under different name on a different program with I hope they are doing it but I don't think so because there is was so much push back the only reason our program survived is we had a bunch of Heroes John Glenn was a hero Senator Cohen was a hero um U two other people and I can't remember their names right now they protected us again from the Wolves who were trying to shut us down and same thing happened with Po sain in in Russia they tried to shut him down down and he they were the head of the general staff was supporting it so they couldn't close it down people are terrified of this stuff in fact Charlie tart wrote a whole book about uh article rather not a book about the um fear of sigh for example if you really believed in telepathy get out of my head man I'm thinking about Stu you have no business knowing what it should be and people really get scared of that do you believe in telepathy I believe that it's impossible and the reason is this you and I are going to do a telepathy experiment right now I'm thinking of a number between 1 and a th000 what is it come on out with it 73 I take my pistol shoot myself in the head I carry myself to the Grave knowing you got the right answer oops I just told you you got the right answer so the question is where did you get the information did you get it out of my mind or the feedback the only way I can prevent it the only way you could possibly get it out of my mind is to kill myself but the minute you find the the answer if you have access if there's an answer book which there isn't when I'm dead you um it's not an experiment anymore please help me understand what you're saying okay cuz I'm not I'm not receiving it okay you pick a number from 1 through a th000 I say 703 you kill yourself why do you kill yourself well because if I say you got it right then the question is from where did you get the information out of my mind or from the feedback you got later what feedback I told you the answer you got to write that's feedback yeah if you were precognitive enough you'd look into the future you're getting a pad on the top of your head because you got the answer right whatever the the way to think about this if you were in college and a scuz ball and you're having an important exam that is going to affect the rest of your life so you sneak into the professor's office and there's an answer book in there from the questionnaire and you study it really carefully or maybe even photograph it boy you're going to do really well on the exam mhm suppose you could do that prec cognitively you're going to do really well on the psychic exams so to speak in fact we use that terminology in our writing peing into the answer book if it if if a study does not have an answer it's not a study now the answer may not be what you want it may be different than what you want but there is some result and the result we consider as the answer book and you have access to that by precognition that in fact we s and I wrote a paper together collapsing the problem space of inter of informational side people getting information by psychic means so are you saying I looked into the future to get 73 saw you tell me good job y came back y said the number yeah now if I'd kill myself you you never get that now we didn't invent this kind of stuff I mean we we we uh concretized it by doing the arithmetic and all the stuff you need to do to make sure that it's real it simplifies things precognition simplifies the whole game and we don't know how to stop looking into the future you could say well I'm getting it from direct well you how do you know you don't know that the big mystery is how the hell the information gets there in the first place for example sonali in India is going to generate from collection of photographs one photograph tomorrow but you're going to remove VI it today how the hell does that work and it turns out we figured out to divide the problem space into two two and a half actually problem space number one how does that information get from India tomorrow to right here today that is 100% a physics problem doesn't depend upon my nose or me or you or anybody it's a physics problem and they worry about it in fact there's even a whole discipline fun uh supported by the American Institute of physics physics called retr CA Quantum retrocausation it is possible for information to go backward in time from the future to the present but the present cannot go backward in time to the Past don't worry about why that's the case but it's true I want to know why that's the case because the past is it's quantum mechanics the the system has already been measured it's collapsed the state Vector has collapsed you can't undo what's been done what's been done but until it's been done the it can influence the present now that does mean the way that's the way it works but at least it's a plausibility argument how how the physics domain there's a guy in in uh physics department excuse me of uh um Amsterdam in University there called um Eric fenda and he said we should throw away gravity as a force it's not a force which it isn't it's geometry and there's a real problem with gravity there's no Quantum base to it so uh of the four basic forces that's the only one that doesn't have a quantum mechanical base so let's get rid of that and talk about entropy that and he derived Einstein field equations Newton's equations and all the stuff of physics based on entropy and I want to go talk to this guy because if it's an ENT entropic Force then there's a a carrier the problem is every excuse me every that we know about and getting information that can be used has a carrier associated with it you are listening to me and getting information because the carrier is the sound waves going to your eardrums um if you have a an alarm clock going off in a vacuum chamber you can't hear it so uh we need some carrier right now and we have no idea what it might be of information coming backward in time but fair Linda has has an idea that might be worth worthy of thought so that's half the problem let alone how it gets into your brain but once it's in the brain oh by the way the physics people can worry about not care about extra sensory perception that's a physics problem all right once it's in the brain leave aside how it got there for a moment then it's a neuroscience problem they don't give a damn how it got there and there the article we wrote uh working with the Brazilian folks this is testable about hyper conductivity in the brain and the white matter and so on blah blah blah all this technical stuff it's testable might be wrong but at least it's testable the problem is what transfers whatever this is coming in into something the brain can recognize we know about retinas in our eyes we know about the sensory systems and our nose and so on but we don't know psychic retina so to speak for remote viewing what do you think it is no idea I really have no idea I mean you don't lose sleep at night thinking about this oh I I think about it all the time you don't have theories I I'm not smart enough I'm not a theorist that's the problem you f figure it out test it it's a very difficult well what we're hoping for that's why we're taking Angela to um um do what's called a case study just her mushing her hand to an MRI machine if we are lucky I mean really lucky her brain will be different um quantitatively different than large number of Base brains that they look at highly unlikely that it will be but if it is different then we can say well it's different because of this this this that and the other thing that gives us a clue of how to see whether we can find psychics that way wow yeah wow big time we're not counting on it by any stretch a better approach to find subjects is to um get involved in the CER seizure Community because since I mentioned over breakfast that all of our participants are have CIT athesia what is that that's where you get cross talk in your sensory systems you um see black and white white things in color um and so on it's cross talk of your sensory systems oh we spoke about this at the beginning we spoke about when you hear music and feel it in your okay okay man I can't I just I mean it's almost like there's some type of unknown organ that's that's at work that's receiving that information just like your nose ears eyes mouth you know touch probably it's going to be more distributed than that in fact the only thing that I'm aware of and I could be wrong on this one that the only the Russians are big on identifying each part of the brain as associated with some behavior and that's simply not true with one exception that is there's a very small part of our brain which is dedicated to face recognition and uh Russell tar for example that part is not functioning for him he can go to a party with his wife and not recognize her from other tall similar women because he cannot recognize her face and same with me so if we're meeting for lunch I'll I he'll hear my voice I'll say Hey Russ good to see you again at least he knows it's me and that's a very standard problem some people have this that for reasons unknown that part of their brain is not functioning properly so I don't expect a little chunk over here for Consciousness another little chunk over here for liking salt you know seriously what this conversation with you has inspired me to maybe not resign quit it's too much fun keep going keep going you know with everything that you've studied and and and and are there any key are there any key things that make you believe everything that you've studied you know over the over the course of no 49 years it's it's not an event it's it's collectiveness the whole thing I mean that for me it's self-evident of this the number of successes in the operational work uh we're not cheating with that and you know there are skeptical people in your business looking at this and hey we want to come back with more study I mean even the CIA came back with us 41 times with new mission they wouldn't do that if it weren't useful to them after it was shut down uh no before shut down before yeah so um no it's more the collective thing for me probably the most convincing evidence is that n 17 of the 19 end users came back with more wanting more more stuff now we can go to statistics and Jessica will bore it a tear on the statistics but no nobody buys statistics why bother good question um I've thought a lot about that because you know I've put a lot of effort in so a lot of colleagues are around I mean I don't want to give the impression I'm the only guy doing this I'm not by any stretch um I guess I'm relying on Chuck Hon's view of that and I tend to agree with it that we may we humans are faced with really interesting questions about do we survive our deaths for example everybody's interested in that including me um can I have a a brief comment on that before we go a little further I was invited as to be a participant at the ramach Krishna Mission Institute of culture in Kolkata India I was the resident materialist of the bunch and long story short there was one of their monks was beating up on me and saying that uh there's something called promisory materialism I don't know if you've ever heard that term uh you're right I can't give it write down an equation for love but I promise you by next Thursday at 2 in the afternoon well maybe a thousand years from next Tuesday we'll have an answer right but so he started defending me on that parasaur materialism and he was a bright Guy totally fluent English and and in uh PowerPoint useful so I went up to him afterwards I said swam G your whole philosophy I love much better than mine that you survive your death and you get to do all this other stuff I wish that were true mine is last breath and that's it and I said but you have to modernize you're basic it on philosophy with 3,000 years old and that was before we knew about brains and about about uh um genetics and all that good stuff he said you have to modernize that and we were worked for about 5 years together he and I over the over the net over over not wasn't zoom in those days uh email to try to figure out ways in which to modernize us and we figured out he couldn't do it so it's it remains in the realm of philosophy at least he was interested in it and so was I so um that was a side side step but you asked me um why I do it mhm because I think humans including me want to know the answers to these more spiritually oriented questions do we actually survive our death or better yet how do we communicate with one another we need to do a hell of a lot better job we're doing now for sure um and things of that nature what is consciousness is is ton right about Consciousness and all of those questions maybe s research as it current exists may not answer those questions but at least it's no new tools in the toolbox that someone later on will be able to use them and help help them answer those questions what do you think Consciousness is I think it's an emerging property of our brain straightforward and T you know I buy Toni story tremendously I will send you a link to that book by the way you should you should get it it's fabulous thank you thank you Edwin we're wrapping up the interview and um you know with all the stuff that you've been involved with and and all your studies outside of remote viewing what do you think we should be looking into as humans you mean is there anything that's come across your radar that you think that that has to do with the subject oh okay it could not it could be totally random but what I'm ask you know when it comes to ESP human sensory what haven't we touched what do people not know about what should we be looking into that's a good question I mean I you know if I knew what we haven't touched I'd go touch it um I'm more concerned politically where where we at as a culture not only our country but similar countries around the world and that's a big threat to everybody and this stuff's not going to help that at all I don't think but that to me is a bigger worry for me at the moment I think that's a worry for a lot of us no kidding but well Ed I just want to say thank you so much for coming on uh my pleasure it was far more interesting than I thought it would be tell you the truth oh man I could I could go on here but um how long have we been at this we've been going for about 5 hours now oh jeez so about four in between four and 5 hours doesn't feel that way at all actually goes by quick doesn't it but uh is there anything that I should be asking you that I haven't asked so far what do I do for fun that's what do you do for fun well I used to play a lot of golf I'm horrible at it but I still like to play it my wife tricked me into it damn it cuz I said I'm not a republican I don't own one pair of Checker pants buzz off so she uh conned me into it uh carrying her clubs one day and I said oh geez and you're a physicist trouble is being a physicist and knowing about golf those are incompatible you should not worry about in your head what's happening to the ball and how it's going to no the other thing is I I do a lot of walking in San Francisco Bay Area long since 11 miles out of crack that's pretty amazing for can I say you're age yeah of course an 83 year old man you look no you screwed it 84 84 yeah oh man we at amazing health no I'm on my 84th trip around the Sun I've been there it's boring you same old son one last question yes sir with all of the remote viewing and and I've I've I've listened to I researched Joe for a long time before he finally came out here and um there was a lot of stuff when it comes to outer space are we alone that kind of stuff what do you think about that are we alone well um who is it I'm forget the the um long since dead philosopher or semi philosopher he said we are his view was We're serially Alone which is pretty interesting and the way he worded that was we've been only to announce ourselves as a species to outer space since the invention of radio so if there are other Critters out there and you know the probability of Critters being there is virtually Unity if you look at the total number of First of the number of galaxies the number of stars in each Galaxy and the number of planets that are mclass planets like the earth I mean the probability that there's life elsewhere is in my view damn near Unity for sure now whether we'll be able to meet it is another question but um Carl Sean and what he said was We're serly alone because in the years that it's been what 150 years since we had radio and intelligent species like we are we're going to put ourselves out of business very quickly with with with global warming we're going to kill ourselves off so give us a thousand years from the invention of a radio the next thousand years we all be gone he says that's inherent to other species as well so what's the probability of two 1,000-year trunks in 5 billion years it's very small that they're that pretty interesting argument whether it's true or not who the hell knows that is an interesting argument I've never thought of it like that cuz we are I mean we're no one's paying I mean we are very I wrote my first paper scientific paper in the Journal of geophysical research in 1962 on upper atmospheric heating by high altitude water vapor and we even knew then that we are in a climate shift we had no idea then back then that as humans were involved involved in it now there's no question well thank you I won't be around long enough to know whether we're burning ourselves up well Edwin I just want to say it was an honor to interview you and sit here and have this conversation and um the honors is return to you sir thank you I am thank you very happy that we met and uh I just wish you the best thank you so much [Music] [Applause] cheers when I'm doing research for the show booking travel or communic ating with guests I always browse the web Incognito but did you know incognito mode is not enough to hide your browsing history all your online activity is still visible to tons of third parties unless you use expressvpn without expressvpn You're vulnerable expressvpn is the best on the market because it reroutes 100% of your traffic through secure encrypted servers and it's easy to use on all your devices fire up the app and click one button to get protected it's even rated number one by top Tech reviewers like CNET and The Verge in my line of work online security is Paramount and that's why I choose expressvpn protect your online privacy today by visiting expressvpn.com Sean that's expressvpn.com Sean and you can get an extra 3 months free expressvpn.com Shan no matter where you're watching Shan Ryan Show from if you get anything out of this please like comment subscribe and most importantly share this everywhere you possibly can and if you're feeling extra generous please leave us review on Apple and Spotify 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