Do you think AI is going to take artist
jobs? Why have you faced backlash
for your use of AI? Is AI overhyped? Welcome
everyone to Real Talk with Shutterstock. In our first conversation, we're tackling the difficult questions
surrounding AI. We're being joined by Jah, visual artist and storyteller,
to get his perspective on the topic. I'm a filmmaker and visual artist
based in L.A., originally from New York. I always say that my style is
when I snuck into my uncle's room reading his comic books
while people outside in Brooklyn, which is playing Biggie and stuff through their cars,
like that's my artistic style. I like to have playtime. I'll sit down at the computer
and I'll just start writing out prompts based off things that I liked as a kid,
you know. Like, my favorite show
as a kid was Power Rangers, and I recently just did a project called Helmet City
where I took those experiences in Brooklyn, New York,
and tied them together. So, for me, it's just let's see how we can merge that
all together with film and 2D, you know? Welcome, Jah. There's a lot of conversation
happening around A.I. and its use in art
and its use in storytelling and whether AI is art
or whether it's science. And, so we're here to kind of address
that elephant in the room and get your perspective as someone who's doing
some really amazing things in the space. So, we've got some questions for you. Are there any concerns that you have
with AI image generation and using it in an art form? Yeah. I'm an artist, so I do think about fair
use and I think the first thing that comes to mind is like a royalty system
and like making sure that those artists that the AI is pulling from,
they're being reciprocated in some kind of way. And, I think the other thing too,
is learning the balance in the relationship. I look at AI as a collaborative tool. I don't want the AI to work for me. I want to work with it,
you know, and making sure that there's that human element in the process
that's just always there. Because it's feeding all the information
that it gets. It's from us, right?
We're feeding that to it. So, it's like continue to walk side by side with it
and just continue to create that way. I think that's very important. What are your thoughts on generating
images in the style of artists? I think if it depends on how it's used,
I feel like. If someone wrote a prompt
that said, “Darth Vader in space,” you can't do that. It's a character that already exists. And, I think that that's more of a copy. But as opposed to
something like, “Space Warrior, filmed in the style of George Lucas,” added with other things. Right? Put it all together
then. That's something different. You just made something transformative
in a way. Right? And I think a lot of art is based off
that process. Like, there's a transformative process. As long as there's credit
being given to the original source, I think that's fine. And, for me, this is nothing new. If we look at music
industry and sampling, particularly in hip-hop,
is the medium, right? You find samples,
you use them every decade, but you're giving credit and homage
and royalties to those original artists. Yeah. So, I view this as an emerging
opportunity to have that conversation. So, let me ask this question. You know, I'm gonna go to market
with a campaign and I put in “in
the style of Jah” as part of my prompts. How are you going to feel if that shows
up on a billboard somewhere? I will feel a way. I will feel a way. Negative? Positive? Proud? If it wasn't me, I'd be like, “Man,
that's crazy. I don't like that.”
And, let's get into that. Why? Why wouldn't you like that? I wouldn't like that because, I think it's
because I just got into this realm and I really started to articulate
my creative language through this space. And, I didn't get a chance to receive that level of attention,
you know? And like, I would naturally feel, because I sat down
and I put in the time to articulate my vision
in that way, I would probably be upset. But, would I be upset 20 years from now? Thirty years from now? Probably not. I'll probably be flattered, you now? So, yeah, proximity
to timeliness of the artist and also the exposure of the artist. I think what you just articulated is interesting
is the sense that you feel ownership over the work
that you're producing as a result of AI. Right. Yeah. And, I'm sure that many artists feel ownership of their styles
or blood, sweat, and tears of their mediums. And, so it is a fine line that we walk. And, I won't assume to sit here
and say that I have the answers. But, some of those ethical questions I think we need to have as a community,
right? For sure. 1,000%. 1,000%. Do you think AI
is going to take artists' jobs? I think, in a way, yes.
And, in other ways, no. I won't lie to you like
it made a lot of situations for me easier, and I could see how people would
rely on that more so than anything else. But, I think it leaves more room
for ideation. You know? It'll open up more opportunities
for more people because I always believe
that that human element has to just be involved in the process. And, I would agree. And, I think from my perspective
as someone in the creative space is, you know, if we look at the evolution
of art over time, like and I love to use this example of,
you know, before cameras and photography,
there were paintings. Right? And so painting was looked at as
the authentic way to capture a portrait. Right? And then suddenly cameras come,
and generally the mass audience did not like photography
as a medium. Right? Still, after the camera, which is capturing an instant,
would revert back to the painters. And so, I think there are numerous
examples across artistic mediums, whether that's music
and the introduction of the synthesizer. Right? Didn't necessarily take away
a pianist job, but it allowed musicians to have a different sound
and a different way of being. And I do think
that AI, we've reached a moment where AI is an additional tool
with which artists can create more. Right? And so, I do think that, you know,
AI is here and I don't feel like it's going
anywhere. It’s just my personal opinion. It's been here for a long time.
It's been here. Right? So, I think it is a new tool
and essentially it opens more doors
or maybe it provides people who maybe weren't thought of as artistic
or creative, access into the world. Right? And so, we talk about new access
points, new opportunities, new mediums, new forms of expression. I think our role as artists and creators
are to leverage those tools. Yes. Yeah, totally, totally agree. Across 2D, 3D, and now AI,
I wonder if you’ve come into contact with any artists who are either fearful
or have negative opinions of AI and its use. Yes. What are some of those
opinions hanging out there? I'll tell you a story like when I first started,
when I did my, when I did the first set of prompts
that I really liked, and I shared it through my social media outlets and, at first, I got a lot of praises
coming in and I was like, okay, cool. This is cool. And then, it just went
to the other side of it. And it was a lot of,
it was mainly fearful, but I think the one thing
that stuck out to me the most, which kind of like maybe double down
and stay in the space even more, was there was a comment
from another Black artist that said, you know, it was weird for them to see a Black person make Black AI characters. And, it puzzled me at first.
I was just like, I don't understand, like,
why that was so weird. But, I think there's
just a normalcy of, you know, us not being involved in the technology. I think that's just normalized. And when you say us,
you mean Black people? Black people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's expected for us not to be there. And so, for me,
I just took that as I think the sense of responsibility
then came in at that time where I was just like, “Oh,
so I have to be here, because I have to be a voice
or representation,” that yes, not only can we be here, but we can like be like really good
in this space too, you know? You know, even beyond art, but,
you know, within the technology space and I think this is the convergence
of creativity and technology to form a new medium,
or at least a new tool kit. There is the larger conversation of equity and inclusion
within the technological space. And a lot of, you know, technology companies are struggling
with a lack of representation. So, you bring up an interesting point to say, how do we be more inclusive in creative spaces where there is
this new art form taking shape? And I would say, you know,
as someone in the creative field myself, you know, I do feel
this is an additional tool. I don't think that this is a replacement
of everything that's come before it. Is AI overhyped? No, I don't think so. I think it's excitement,
but I don't think. I think hype dies down. It's already been integrated in our lives in ways
that we didn't even actually realize. And I think it's just,
we've just hit a point of exposure now where people who didn't naturally think about it
are thinking about it. And, I think that would calm down. But, I don't think there's a hype. You know, I went to get a haircut
and I'm in a barbershop and then like I hear people
get a haircut talking about AI. And I was like,
"Oh, okay, it's here." Yeah, when it reaches the barbershop. Yeah, when it got to the barbershop. It was like, “Yeah, you know, I use
ChatGPT for law.” I was like, “Yeah, okay.” That's interesting,
you know? That was like the first time
outside of my space where I heard people
just talking about it just naturally. And so, yeah, that hit me differently. I was like, “Oh, it's really expanded
quickly.” I got to say, at least in the visual arts, yeah,
AI is having a moment right now,
but in everyday life we use AI. You know, I write a ton of text, right? And so, I use Grammarly. I speak into Siri, right? We are using AI to do everyday things. We're just not branding it as AI. Right. And so, it's really not a foreign concept
to most of us. But then, when we get into these, you know, discussions of ownership
and ethics and really expanding, you know, what
we think of in terms of creative output, you know, it does warrant
a conversation. Yeah, definitely. It's benefiting us with our knowledge and our understanding
of the world around us. And then, creatively, it's taken us into another layer of imagination. Why have you faced backlash
for your use of AI? I faced backlash for my use of
AI because of assumption. You know, “This isn't real art
because, like, you didn't actually physically just sat down
and just you didn't make it.” I believe that a lot of people
didn't know what the process looked like behind the scenes. They just thought it was just, you know,
I put in a picture or something and then this would come out.
They weren't way after the prompt writing
and everything that came with it. There was an assumption
that you hadn't done the work exactly. For me, I do think that art requires thought and process
and toiling over this color, that color, that texture,
this size, that shape. Right? And, so there's a lack of understanding that through the use of AI,
you're still running that process. Yes, I think even more so in a sense,
because you have to articulate that through words,
especially with prompt writing. Like you have to be able to articulate. You know, you may put out an image and
it doesn't come out the way you want. You have to go back in there and write out what you want the
AI to help you generate. So, yeah, it's a lot of that. That's an art form in itself to me. So, in the beginning, you know,
I wasn't really hitting it because I was just using basic
prompts like, “Man standing by a river.” The thing is,
you want to keep refining it. And so, how would you take “Man
standing by a river” and refine it? So, you have the basic prompt there: “Man
standing by a river.” But then, you would want to go
in. What does this man look like? So, I'll say, “Black
man, standing by a river.” Right? What is he wearing? “Black man wearing street
apparel, standing by a river.” Where's this river? “In Colorado.” You just keep refining. And then if you want, like film language,
you want to look a certain way, you can say, ”Shot on a 50 millimeter
lens.” “Shallow depth of field.” And it’ll
give you more. So, it's just continuously
just adding on to that basic prompt and just embellishing it. Cool. So, essentially, you're writing a
story within a prompt, right? Okay. To get you closer to the result or
the vision that you have in your mind. Do you think that AI artists will be
looked at as second-class citizens
within the art community? In the traditional art spaces, I definitely feel that. Will it be like that for some time? I don't think so, because I don't think photographers are looked at that way
anymore, you know? Now, you see photography's in museums
and everything. So, I think at some point
that won't be the case. But, now because it's new
and because it's divisive, you know. So, I think yeah. Because generative AI technology is new,
you know, we've had to have ethical conversations
about what compensation looks like for the artists that are feeding the models
that allow you to do what you do. Shutterstock is forging the path
towards equitable and responsible AI integration
and compensating its artists. So, we've launched the Contributor
Fund really focused on if your image or your data has been used to train
these models, right, you will get compensated. Similar to how artists having from
our organization for more than 20 years. I want to talk about how AI is opening
up new revenue streams for you and how you have essentially
padded your pockets with the use of AI. Yeah, through Web3
I've been able to sell my pieces on different marketplaces. And, if you're not familiar with Web3,
it's utilizing blockchain technology. So, I've sold pieces on the blockchain. Another way is like you mentioned
with Shutterstock, just being able for an artist to create models
and do model training. Astronauts eating pizza on Mars
would garner a lot of attention. Yeah. Just being able
to stretch the imagination in that way will attract a lot of people's
attention. How would you describe the value of AI
in your process? It's extremely valuable. Being able to conceptualize ideas in ways
that I wasn't able to before at a speed that I wasn't able to before
has been really, really, really helpful. What do you like about Shutterstock’s
AI tool over others? Shutterstock’s
AI Image Generator is super intuitive. The models they're trained are just really like really,
really strong models. Really good. I think one of the things that caught
my eye was how I was able to upscale. It was really, really cool. I had all these different options. One of the bits of feedback we received
from the artist community is like, when you are generating portraits, right,
you may need more space. Right? So, recently,
we've launched Zoom Out feature, which allows you to take the image
that you generate and really add more kind of negative space
or context behind it, right? Because you may not need this up
close portrait. You may need somebody
that's sitting back. Right? And so, I think those are
some of the innovations from our product team
that are really helpful for artists, in terms of when you mentioned upscaling
or getting the exact thing that you want with AI image generators, is that not
being locked into just that one image, but how that image can suit
your actual purpose. Right. Exactly. Are there any areas
that you think we can improve on? The last project I did, Helmet
City, used hip-hop, streetwear, the Japanese genre tokusatsu. And, I remember through
that I had a little bit of difficulty just getting those images right. So, I think opening up
to different categories, or maybe I think maybe that's model
training, just having more artists come in and just having more models
within the database will probably help. I think that's very important. We talked about inclusivity,
but it's also inclusivity and training the models, right? And making sure that there's
representation of all of those different mediums
that inform the output that you experience as AI. So, particularly as we're talking
about equitable access, it's also about equity and feeding those models
to make sure that when you are putting in those prompts, essentially those reference points,
that we have enough data to inform the output that you want. And so, that goes for skin tone,
that goes for gender identity, expression, cultural references,
globalization, all of the things. The more data and the more information
that the models have, the better the result on the other side. And so, it is the responsibility of a
Shutterstock, a leader in this space, to make sure that we have
data and models that are representative of the world that we live in, right?
Not just a slice. Yeah, totally. Totally. So, Jah, we're fortunate
to have you as a Create Fund winner and some of your art is featured
as part of a collection on Shutterstock. And, I wanted to get your thoughts
on having some of your art train
the AI Image Generator. That would be amazing. That would be really cool. I'm teaching myself
on training models right now. Yeah, being able to use my art
as a reference to include in that database would be like,
really, really, really, really dope. And what excites you about that? I think the most exciting part
is that it's models trained from my imagination. I think that's just the coolest part,
you know, just being able to help other people create worlds
like based off that will be really cool knowing that, like, I'd be compensated. Cool. So models,
plus the imagination, plus compensation. Compensation. So, you know, if I see it on a
billboard, oh, no, I'm good. I do think that is a value, right? You want a responsible ethical partner
who is compensating artists. And, to me,
I feel like for a contributor, there's an opportunity
to open up a new revenue stream in addition
to expanding the creative toolset. Right? And so, for me,
I feel like it's an opportunity. It's a win-win. There's just, you know, if we get in early enough,
we could really blow this thing up. In many periods, we kind of shy away
from technology or we are fearful of it. And so, we don't actually get to take advantage of it as quickly
as we could to actually drive benefits and also policies and procedures. Right? And so, I do think it would behoove us to learn more
and to move forward responsibly. But, you know,
to recognize that this is a new day. Right. 1,000%. I totally agree. Yeah. Are there any advancements that might
change your opinion on AI and its use? I think advancements, I wouldn't say
necessarily change my opinion, but one of the things that concerns me
with the advancement of AI, is like making it overly convenient to the point
where we just like relying on it, you know, over
relying on it to be honest. I think that's the one thing
that probably concerns me. What's your hope for AI? My hope is that it's used responsibly
and that all the contributors that are using this
technology are compensated and that we don't become over
reliant on the technology, that we remove ourselves from it. Awesome answer. What is art? Expression. What is love? Everything. What is culture? Identity. What is AI? The future. All right, Jah. Well, thanks for joining us
on this important conversation. I'm super happy to have,
you know, anytime I have the opportunity to speak to artists and creators
like yourself to get the actual real perspective of community
is super valuable. So, thank you for being here. Can you tell us where we can find more
about you and your art and where we can get in contact? Yeah, I have a website, www.byjah.art, and through there,
it has all my social channels and you can see all the art
that I’ve made. That would be the best way to contact me and get in touch
and see everything that I'm doing. Thanks for joining us everyone. We tackle the difficult questions
surrounding AI. We invite you to explore our
AI Image Generator and the rest of our creative solutions
at Shutterstock.com.