Transcript for:
Infiltration of NAMBLA by FBI Agent

namble is the North American manboy love Association a group of adult men that are sexually attracted to boys Bob HR is a former undercover FBI agent tasked with bringing down one of the most disturbing criminal organizations in America we ended up convicting seven members of nbl's inner circle he talks about this is an organization we're First Amendment organization we're not here to commit crimes and Mark this is true he said we've been infiltrated in the past and he sat right there in that seat and it was a seat I'm sitting in and it's like crap and what is the the nature of the meeting what is the discussion he said I just want to play with his chest and he puts his hands on my shoulder and he comes down on my chest and he starts rubbing my chest thank God that the FBI's equipment for the camera only lasted an hour and a half I would have to explain why I've got four nipples is there any through line or any type of uh history that they all kind of shared not one child that was successfully seduced by a n member had a strong father figure in the home any politicians or any people in like power positions you know and it's interesting you say that Bob HR thank you so much for joining me brother you have an absolutely fascinating career 26 years in the FBI one of the most successful undercover agents in FBI history you have infiltrated the Mexican Mafia the Italian mafia you've acted as a weapons dealer in order to infiltrate an international crime syndicate dealing with the North Koreans and the Chinese you've done a ton of stuff but the case that I want to talk about today is in my opinion the most disturbing uh it's known as as as nbla this the the National Association of manboy lovers this is extremely disturbing I just kind of want to give a a a preface to anyone that's listening um this conversation is probably going to be a little darker and a little more morbid uh than a lot of the other podcast episodes that I've done so just kind of listen with some discretion um I would just kind of like to start can you explain what this organization is what they do kind of how they started and how you got involved in the case it it's called nbla The and thanks Mark for having me back on the show I appreciate this this has been fun i' I've I've enjoyed my time and now you're telling people it's disturbing you know the other ones were disturbing we've got we've got this far and the other ones were disturbing for different reasons so our relationship is such to the point now we can talk about disturbing cases exactly exactly yeah we flirted enough yeah yeah so namas is the North American manboy love Association it's a a group of adult men that are sexually attracted to the boys and uh it's it was the most difficult ult undercover case I did and I'll get into the details but it was it was one the organization began in the late 70s uh kind of there was a sexual Revolution going on in America they began in Boston the reason it happened there was law enforcement had this movement where they they went in and arrested a bunch of men that were bringing boys into the house giving them drugs showing them and then having sex with the boys and so the the men were arrested what's up guys we're going to take a break really quick CU I want to tell you about s'more Camp yes join s'more Camp what is this this is the interner sanctum this is for the Die Hard Camp folk all right this is not just for your regular Camp listener if you listen to a couple episodes here and there I appreciate you but this is not for you all right this is for the Diehard campers sign up put your email in and you're going to be getting weekly updates about what's coming out next on the show exclusive merch updates that will be coming out very soon and furthermore you'll be getting interesting facts and little things that go into the research for this show that didn't make the episode because maybe it was a little too crazy maybe it was a little too dark you can check it out all there straight to your inbox it's very easy the link is in the description join the inner sanctum of the real campers the real die hards all right the real people that mess with this show it's awesome I enjoy it I enjoy putting it together check it out in the description let's get back to the show and because I I guess because of the sexual Revolution there were people that saying what's wrong as long as the boys were consenting to this there shouldn't be anything wrong and and the boys and I I will say it's my understanding that the boys that were there were 15 16 it wasn't like they were six or seven or eight years old so the whole idea was this was consensual sex nobody was being physically violently they all the boys were going after it was the idea of we desensitize the boys maybe pay them uh money maybe give them incentives to have sex and and they were having sex so this this movement came it it began in a church they got together one night a bunch of men to protest what was going on with law enforcement and NBL began that night became began in a church began began in a church U and is that in relation to any type of like CH Church Authority or was that just a meeting place no I I think it was I think it was just a liberal church that in I don't know I I probably shouldn't even even Hazard guess but it wasn't it wasn't like we we rented out the kns of Columbus Hall or anything like that it was a it was a church that that I think recognized that uh I guess love is on the Spectrum and it comes in all in in all forms so as long as it's consensual you know this this was the whole thing so so Nas's nbl's big thing their Charter if you read their original charter the idea was that um we should abolish the age of consent laws in other words every state and most Nations has an age of consent so if you if you have uh sex with someone below the age of consent it's called statutory so it doesn't matter whether that child consented or not so obviously if if a 30-year-old man has consensual sex with a 20-year-old woman that's that is okay under our laws um if he has consensual sex with a 14-year-old even though the 14-year-old says yes of course that's considered statutory so the whole purpose initial initially the whole purpose behind nbla was to abolish age of consent laws and so now this group would meet up how frequently and were these members public or were they kind of private like what was the nature of the membership yeah initially the the organization was open about what they were doing and they marched in gay pride parades and they had there there are photos of we march with nbla and men walking down the street with the big nbla banner they were having meetings in public venues like libraries and and all that and they had chapters throughout the country oh wow and this is in the 70s 70s and 80s um in they Republic into the 90s and then there was a a famous case that that kind of caused issues for them and it was the Jeffrey Curley case which we can talk about a little later but it was jeffley Curley's murder and a subsequent lawsuit wrongful death naming NAMBLA that sort of caused them to go underground because of because of the exposure you have to understand for most of these men exposure was worse than prison uh even within the gay community the wasn't necessarily accepted early on it was accepted but still kind of on the periphery they were still Outsiders in this Liberation movement and so they they participated eventually they were kicked out of the international lesbian and gay Association they were shunned by this Progressive like gay movement to say like yeah we're gay we're not exactly right exactly interesting and so they are operating up until up up up until the the mid 90s but they were they they were pretty open there was even here in New York there there was an an incident um where it turned out that uh John Miller who was kind of a big reporter in the New York did an I guess you could say an expose on nbla and they were meeting in public venues while they exposed uh a school teacher Peter melzer and as being a member of nbla so that hit the news and it it became an issue because apparently he was well-liked as a teacher but he admitted by his membership that he he preferred uh sex with with boys now this whole thing just seems crazy to me that you would have some type of like public or quasi public group dedicated to in my mind I'm like the police should just go to their meeting and arrest all of them because being illegal so why is that not happening all throughout the 70s ' 80s and 90s well just to back up being a is not illegal acting out upon it is right so that was from a First Amendment protected organization it was because we can we can all get together and Associate and we can Advocate anything we want as long as we're not breaking the law to do it so um kind of in it this is probably even a stupid example but if if we just all got together as bank robbers and said we we want to abolish bank robbery as the as a law and make bank robberies legal we could do that and we could Advocate to abolish the bank robbery laws and make it legal to rob banks but what we can't do is go in and rob banks so that's the simple argument is these men can get together and try to Advocate this but it's still illegal to go ahead and do it so nbla made the they made real strong efforts to say no we're not we're not suggesting that we're not telling you how to seduce boys or where to go to seduce boys or or to break the law we're just we want to Advocate to abolish the age of consent laws all right oh you you agree yeah it's like I mean sure I get it in principle but when there's smoke there's fire and uh if all these guys are meeting up and in your bank robber example if all these bank robbers are meeting up to talk about trying to abolish the law against bank robbery I'm going to be like yeah these guys are probably robbing banks or probably have robbed banks in the past absolutely so I'm sure this is where kind of you come in as a undercover FBI agent how does this case come across your desk and what do you think initially when you start hearing about it the this what first happened with the FBI um there was a man that was arrested in Knoxville Tennessee for possession of child pornography so when the FBI went in they they get his computer and they find that he had traveled over to Thailand and had sex with boys in Thailand and had videotapes and photos of him having sex with these with these boys in Thailand and and he explained that he went to Thailand because it was a travel agent that that set up these travel excursions for boy lovers bl's is what they call themselves and that the FBI then had a meeting headquarters the Knoxville agents and the LA agents had a meeting to say okay we've we've got to take a look at this travel agent U so the LA office opened a case on the travel agent I was a certified undercover agent in other words the FBI as as we've talked about before it's not like TV the supervisor doesn't walk into the squad Bay and say hey anybody want to be a day or a contract killer or something like that so the bureau you're you're certified and I I was on the west coast there are I'm I'm somewhat making up these numbers but there's roughly 10,000 FBI agents Street agents throughout the country the ones that are risking their lives that are working the cases and there may only be 100 or 150 certified undercover agents there really aren't that many so toward the end of my career on the west coast I always said I got the IOU cases so if they were looking for somebody that was impotent old or ugly they would they would contact me because I was certified I'd had a lot of experience and everything um so when the case agent contacted the undercover coordinator and said look we need essentially an older man to to play and he gives him a couple names of certified people on the west coast and I'm one of them so he approached me when he first approached me he said hey we're we're doing a investigation on sex crimes or sex tours to Thailand and I was like Hey sign me up man I mean if your tax dollars are going to pay for me to get massages over in Thailand you know I'm down for this and uh he said would do you want to know more of the details and I said uh you know doesn't matter you know put me down and I'm I'm looking for anything that's exciting as an undercover agent because I'm just I'm chasing that adrenaline Dragon so just just give it to me and he says well this is this is boy lovers this is a we've got a travel agent here in Los Angeles that's putting together the the case putting together trips for these men that are traveling overseas to have sex with little boys and I will say I I didn't hesitate it was still yeah this is interesting uh I want to find out about it and I think kind of like the the comedic actor who now wants to play the drama part it's like okay this is going to stretch me as as as as an undercover agent I mean I I've got so much admiration for the jist stones of the world for the Garcia's for the Jay Dobbins for the the Billy Queens I mean these guys but none of them ever played so it's like okay maybe I can maybe maybe I can move up into to their level of uh legendary you know so uh but so the travel agent is going to be a boy lover or I mean it the person they need now has to be a boy lover and one of the things I always enjoyed uh and this Probably sounds silly but even in school I like doing research papers and I wanted to be an expert on a topic I wanted to be smarter than the teacher on a particular topic as I mentioned in an earlier one you know in seventh and eth grade I did one on organized crime and I knew more about organized crime than my teacher did and and so in all of these undercover cases I had to I had to be smart enough to fool them to think that I was one of them I didn't have to be an expert but enough so that eventually I'd have an indictment to to shove up their rear end right if you're going to buy drugs from someone you can't go in there fumbling around about what kind of drugs you needed if you're going to pretend to be a mafia guy you got to know Mafia stuff yeah yeah so so now uh I mean when I first started working I I spent a lot of time in the library trying to find out about antique art or clocks or whatever whatever it was that I was supposed to be pretending to purchase and and all that so now I'm on the internet trying to find out boy love boy lovers and and put in the internet and thank goodness we had special computers at the FBI because I'm I'm typing in stuff and I'm getting all kinds of crap coming across the internet um it the FBI had already identified predicated chat rooms where we knew that essentially were hanging out so I was I was going in as Bobby 13 into some of these chat rooms and mark it as as soon as I would type Bobby 13 um within seconds I've got four or five guys that are that are trying to chat with me I I can't tell you how many times guys wanted to know if I'm masturbated wanted to talk to me you know show me how to do it uh or or tell me how to do it and you know are you touching yourself here's where I want you to touch it I mean it was so disgusting and I'm an old man I'm not trained in computers I couldn't keep up with the chats because I'd have i' I've got three or four chats that I can't even keep up with because I can't type fast enough and and typically it was uh oh my mom's got the computer in the kitchen I just heard the garage door open I got to go by and just to just to get off but my purpose for going in there wasn't to trap these men I needed to I wanted to learn how they thought I cuz when I went in when I went into to this travel agent I wanted him to know that I was in fact a boy lover um I spent six months at the racetrack undercover where we eventually convicted five or six people five people of fixing races and taxes but I had to learn how to gamble I I started that case I really didn't know the difference between a geling and Corella and by the time we get done with the case I'd hit the pick six twice I had a triple that paid $3,700 on a $2 bet you became a game I became I I became a handicapper U and my it scared my wife more than anything else because she was afraid I was going to become an addicted Gambler um so now I want to be able to go in I want to learn all about the the boy lover the mentality how they think how they act uh what they said their language were you surprised how quickly you were able to just lure in a digital Predator oh it was scary it it it was did you have kids by that time oh yeah yeah yeah I'm older I mean you know I I was I was an older agent at this time I was I I was uh early 50s I guess was it surprising to you or disturbing to you as a father to see how accessible your children could be and how vulnerable they were absolutely because I didn't grow up in that generation there weren't computers uh right and your your awareness was oh don't talk to weird guys and vans and you know stay away from creeps on the street oh we'll get into this absolutely I going into this case I'm a trained experienced investigators I've been in shootings I've had a contract put out on my life and all this but I assumed that that the the sex perverts had long stringy hair black Home Room glasses had a trench coat and hung out at public restrooms and just fly people and as as we'll see as we get into this case that's not what they are so even I as an experienced investigator didn't understand this problem and who they were and certainly when I got on the internet and saw what was happening in the chat rooms it was like th this is this is frightening this is disturbing now as as the FBI is aware of these like predicated chat rooms as you mentioned is there nothing that they can do to take down those people or like to set up thingss on those guys they were and that's and that's what I wasn't going in as that but you would have people that the Bobby 13 going in and then you meet um old man from Utah and you're chatting back and forth and then he he wants to travel to meet you to have sex with you and you set that up so that's got it so you had a separate division that was working on those sting operations and then you were able to use those predicated chat rooms as research yes so I I knew the bureau had really strict protocols that you just couldn't go on the internet and start and essentially kind of advertising so we had identified these chat rooms so you just could you couldn't go into gardening gardening mothers uh selling succulents or something like that and go into those chat rooms and start saying oh yes I'm uh I I love cacti but uh does anybody have any kids they want sold you know that that kind of thing so right so I was only going into those chat rooms that that you had clearance to to go into God and again this whole thing I'm not trying to set anybody up or engage in criminal activity I'm just trying to learn the mindset the words that they're using such as BL they didn't they didn't refer to themselves as as they they were boy lovers bl's right so if you walk in there to the travel agent you're like hey I'm a local they're going to be like he's going to be like oh you're a cop so you have to know the language right so how long do you do the research for and when do you go in to actually so I didn't didn't take long you know couple shifts in the uh chat rooms and I'm and I'm picking up the language and everything what came about on that we were we were working another case and I was down in Santa Monica in front of a Salvation Army thrift store and and I Was preparing for this travel agent case and I'm thinking golly I I still feel like I smell like a cop I look like a cop I'm not sure I can fool professional or this this travel agent who deals with pedophiles I'm not sure I can fool him and there were it's like a a big walking stick that was in there in the window of the Salvation I think you know what I'll just be handy capped so I W in walked in and bought the bought the walking stick and I just figured I I could be an old man that's that's semi crippled and you know can't get really cool people so you know I would could overpower children and that's that's what it was so that's that's kind of how that that whole crutch thing came about and I used it then for the rest of my career so we've previously talked about operation Smoking Dragon I was handicapped I I worked a Vietnamese gang case and I was I was handicapped I had the the the crutch and everything so um so so now we're we're getting ready to set up to go to the travel agent we' contacted him it was and I probably have some of my details wrong it's it's been a long time so I'm not under oath here I'm not going to purposely lie to you but um I the case agent had already contacted him online about the the tours and the costs and everything and so I called the guy up and said is it o you know I'd like to come over and talk to you about the trip sure come on come on in and uh went over to to Hollywood he lived in a not quite sure what but an apartment a con a complex where it was one story uh little nice little gardens but they were overgrown and the fence was broken and as I'm walking down to his unit there's just there's a bunch of toys on and I'm thinking golly this guy's putting together tours for U pedophiles for boy lovers and there's all these kids hanging around I wonder if he's one and I I get up to the door and I knock on the door and and he he lets me in he's tall thin guy elderly older than I am and he's got DVDs stacked to the ceiling well it turns out that he was a gay actor a gay producer of gay porn and the the apartment was not it was kind of dirty it wasn't kept up but he he lived there and he ran his gay uh distribution gay porn distribution out out of his apartment so I'm in hindsight this probably wasn't the smartest thing to do but I'm I'm wearing shorts uh without underwear baggy shorts without underwear and kind of a like a wife beater t-shirt I mean you know I just I don't I don't look like you know I'm I'm all that necessarily cool and uh we go in we sit down and we start talking about the tour and the trip and he admits it he said I'm not a I'm not a BL I put together trips you know what what you want to do is up to you um we're we're talking about who's going to go on the trip and he's warning me that you know you have to be careful what you say you know even in our community you're not welcome and of course I'm saying yes I know that that's you know I heard about you and that's why I knew you you put together these trips but you you did it and we had learned through research he did it for both both gays and from bl's so it wasn't everybody on the trip wasn't and I'm just sitting there and I said well I don't I don't want to do something wrong I don't want to I don't want to kind of say the wrong thing to the wrong people and he said well we got 30 people going on this trip and uh he pulls the the list out and he starts he said this guy this guy's a BL this guy's a BL this guy screw anything you know and so I'm s and this is it and I said well I don't understand how does this work over there and he well when you go over to Thailand we'll set you up um there's a guy named Bob that you'll meet over there you tell him what your desires are and he will make sure that that you get to the right bars because not every bar is for boy lovers uh summer for gay men you know but you have to tell him what your desires are and then he'll put you in the right spot so I'm thinking I I'm thinking I probably have come close to fulfilling the elements of this case that we've got we we've got a man that's admitting to uh helping boy lovers travels telling them how he can how they can find boys overseas uh setting them up with the contact to find the boys they can they can have sex they can do any type of sex acts with these boys when they go I'm kind of figuring I've come close to to fulfilling all the elements of the trial and I probably got it so now I'm playing up this is we talked about this before but I'm playing up the Osteo um genetic uh osteomyelitis resulted in spond thesis and and I'm limping over and he's got a glass taed u a glass covered coffee table and my leg is underneath it and I just figured I'm going to screw with this guy and I jumped my leg jumped and it hit the bottom and and it cracked the glass coffee table and I said I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I've got this condition and I have I have trouble I can't control the the the jumping and and the twitching and I was like this is so great I'm just I'm just screwed with this guy and cracked his coffee table now has I'm sorry go ahead now I'm I'm so curious like the guy is obviously in my mind a a creep it it doesn't seem like he is a based off what he's saying but I don't know I don't think he was um I mean what he's doing should be illegal but I don't know enough about the laws is what he's doing illegal what happened was so so like I said I've cracked the coffee the the coffee table and I'm figuring that you know this is fun we go back I tell my case agent we figure we got this guy that that we we've got everything we need to take him down um and contact the assistant unit States Attorney the a USA with all the evidence and she says you don't have enough that th this isn't this isn't enough to get to get a prosecution and it's it's one of those things that it's still frustrating to me when you talk to the general public because on Dick Wolf's Law and Order they find a partial fingerprint and they indict the guy with the that they'll indict him and bring him into court with the idea that maybe he'll get scared and agreed to plead guilty and then give up all of the members of The Conspiracy well it doesn't work that way in in the ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in the ninth circuit federal circuit in Los Angeles that covers Western United States I mean you don't you don't indict on probable cause you indict on proof Beyond a reasonal doubt and we had so many cases that maybe in some other jurisdiction they would have indicted but in in La when you got the indictment that meant you had proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and it it made it very frustrating for FBI agents for federal agents but um she said we didn't have it well in the meantime I I kind of jumped ahead let me back up as I'm as I'm preparing for this case I run a across the website of nbla and I just figure okay bl's they're going to be part of this Association they're going to be they're going to be members of this group and I I look up the I go through very thoroughly the website and everything you could join the organization for 35 bucks so I contacted my a USA and said hey I I want to join nbla I think it you know I think most of these people on this trip will be nbla members I I didn't know but I just assume that they would um I kind of want a membership card I sort of wanted a membership card to be able to you know flaunt in the face of of the jist stones of the world say ha I'm an amblem member and you're not um and um she said yeah go ahead and join so I join I get a letter now this is essentially the computer age I get a a letter dear blank with all these U paragraphs you know boiler Point paragraphs about uh the organization and their beliefs and everything and handwritten is dear Robert you know handwritten and uh and it's signed by Peter Herman who turns out to be Peter meler the guy I talked about before that was a school teacher here in uh I think it was in the Bronx but um so I get this letter but it talks about the very courageous step that you've taken by joining the organization and I actually tried to get it slipped into my personnel file because I figured you know FBI administrators aren't going to know what namble is and they're just going to see oh Bob got a letter of commendation from this organization for his courage so you know maybe we'll you know give him a promotion not that there really wore promotions in the FBI but so but the secretary knew that I tried to pull crap you know other things in my file so she never put it in but so now I'm a I'm a I'm a member of nbla I I have I paid my $35 and I'm member of an amble I have the dues I paid the dues we the travel agent case falls apart uh they do a search warrant on his facilities I'm not exposed but it's probably not the right word to use exposed when I'm not wearing underwear when I go into this guy why no underwear what was that choice I just kind of hanging out you know just you know that you know and you f sexually deviant all all the undercover agents on TV always wear underwear so I figured you know I wanted to yeah I was just I'm sorry I you know I just it would just seem like the thing to do well because they were they were the old they were like cut off sweatpants you know they weren't even they weren't even real shorts um but anyway they they don't find anything in that that's prosecutable that case falls apart so the travel agency case goes nowhere in the meantime I'm a member of nbla and this all took place in September and October I think in November I get a letter from NAMBLA you know again thank you for your courageous step we have a Christmas card program a holiday card they're very politically correct a holiday card program and we would we ask our members if they would be willing to send Christmas cards to incarcerated members uh in prison so that they know that they're not forgotten and you have to do it in in numbers of three because the way the the way the sheets were set up it was in three names three names three names three names and again I called the a USA and just said hey can I can I go ahead and send Christmas cards and she said sure so I ended up getting 15 names and begin and send Christmas cards to these NAMBLA members and kind of put it out as um can't remember exactly the words that I use but essentially I you know I'm sorry that uh I think you know our organization we put out the bulletin which the namble bulletin they have a magazine and uh I think you know who we are and I'm I'm just sorry that you're in there that you were caught uh I'm I'm essentially tired of archaic laws and U you know be be well or something like that you know whatever it was well a couple of these guys started writing back to me and then I they besides a Christmas card program they had a penp pal program so again these are stuff that apparently the news media doesn't think we do but a lot of steps we take we get permission from the US attorney's office so I contacted the a USA and the assistant United States Attorney and said hey um they got a penpal program can I go ahead and do this and they said yeah with the idea that we were going to contact these guys in prison because we're interested in travel and can we do you know of any other travel agents out there you know do you know people that are traveling where to go sort of this It Was Naive when you think about it um with the with the efforts I was taking but I was just I was just doing it I was going to I was going to follow through on all this now keep in mind I'm working other cases so in my mind this was almost like a hobby I mean it's like okay in between cover leads on another case or something I'll write a letter to to an amblem member so by the time this case is done I am I am corresponding with about 165 NBL members that are in prison or somewhere around that number by the time we took down the case I'd been a member for three years so I had been in Namo for 3 years not not on a daily basis or anything like that we'll get into a little more details but uh so so I'm corresponding with these nbla members U at the time I was actually on the joint terrorism task force hey what's up guys we're going to take a break really quick because I need to tell you about a brand I'm so excited to be working with you probably seen me wearing this Sleek little bracelet right here this very fashionable cool trendy little wrist Gadget and I don't wear it just because it looks cool I wear it because it tells me everything I need to know about my health specifically how I sleep this is called a whoop you probably heard of it you've probably seen people wearing it top performance athletes professionals entrepreneurs probably seen them rocking this old thing this is the most advanced health and fitness wearable on the market this is a product that I actually use all the time you probably see me on flagrant you probably see me on this show rocking this very whoop I have on my wrist it's awesome I connect it to my iPhone on this app right here this is my actual data I use it specifically for Sleep there's a lot of different things you can use it for it's nice because I can track my workouts it automatically detects when I'm weightlifting when I'm playing soccer it just tags it it goes oh we detected you've been you know working out for these hours and it tracks my heart rate it sees how high I got my heart rate to I can tell the intensity of my workouts I can see if I push it if I was kind of phoning it in and then furthermore my favorite element is sleep it tells you exactly how you're sleeping it shows you your five most important metrics your respiratory rate resting heart rate uh heart rate variability a bunch of things and it tells you how you slept how you recovered and how you can sleep better it's absolutely amazing it can track your sleep throughout the night it even tell you how many hours you're sleeping it's absolutely amazing I use it all the time my heart rate variability is a little bit down what's interesting with the whoop I actually discovered that when I drank caffeine during the day I was actually sleeping worse if I drank it too late and furthermore when I drank alcohol my recovery was a little bit worse so I was like oh I should be more specific and sporadic when I drink it made me make more mindful decisions about my health and it actually made me say you know what for octo I'm cutting out alcohol that's right I'm doing sober October and I think I'm doing it with all the boys that's right all the flagrant boys allegedly if you want to join us in the sober October challenge you can go to join whoop.com camp that's right that's join whoop w.com camp and if you join use the code Camp you are going to get a one- Monon free trial it's absolutely amazing everything you need to know take control of your health today and sleep better and recover faster let's get back to the show so in between covering terrorism leads um writing to incarcerated U getting letters back from them some of the letters uh it was sad I mean some of them were I'm a born again Christian I've learned that this was wrong uh please don't contact me again and so we didn't some of them I I got on a uh somebody submitted my name to a a a Christian mailing list and so I start getting letters from the to my undercover post office box from this Christian group about sexual addiction and and know how to help others they were so graphic it was you know this is this is what I like this is what I I did in the book um the last undercover I I have some of those um copies of of some of those letters where you know I I've I like I'm 95% boy lover I'm 5% girl lover uh you know like some they're disgusting yeah some of these letter and they're very graphic in the the details about what they've done to kids and what they want to do to kids uh when they get out and I again I've mentioned this before to you that I always thought of my grandmother being on the jury so I wanted to be careful of what I even said in the letters and and so it was it was difficult had I been more graphic in my return letters to them they would have been even more graphic but but it was it was pretty bad but what I found um I I was dealing with military guys airline pilots College professors illiterates uh guys that were millionaires guys that were on welfare I I mean it ran the gamut I couldn't people have asked me well how can we identify one and well there there's no checklist there there is there isn't anything that that's going to say this or that but but those letters were they were they were frightening to me but thinking in terms of oh thank goodness they're all in prison you know they're not out there they're they're all in prison and now all of these men are in prison for their sex crimes sex crimes it's not like these were NBL members that were selling weed and got jammed up exactly yeah it wasn't a namble bank robber anything so when NBL is putting you in touch with people to write to they know that these people are in prison for their sex crimes exactly which to me like I don't know that seems like it goes against their First Amendment right of uh oh yeah we're just a group to talk about abolishing laws it's like no you're also supporting people that are in prison for right for kids like crazy but again you know there was the right of Association you know they we're still we're encouraging it we're we're encouraging you because you're an em member because you did this but we're not we're still not saying that you know help us do it more right I'm probably not I guess guess myself they probably there's probably attorneys and lawyers that are in the group that are advising on how to speak and what to say in order to evade the law I yeah I I I think so and they and they again they make it pretty clear that initial letter I got from them uh in in their bulletins their magazines they do that so so I'm I'm writing the letters I don't know why but one day I just decided that I'm going to write an article for the magazine I just thought it would be kind of cool to get published and so I submitted a couple articles the one was castration myth or Madness and and I wrote an article about that and submitted it I I wrote another one about statute without limitations because I'm sure most of your subscribers know that for most crimes there's a statute limitations if if if you haven't if you haven't arrested the the bank robber in 5 years depending on what the state was you couldn't you couldn't prosecute them you know you can't go back and say oh well in in in 1954 you robbed a bank now we're going to prosecuted for it now the statute of limitations is run in Murder there is no statute of limitations in treason there is no statute of limitations well there were there was an effort to expand the statute limitations for sex crimes so that it's when it's discovered or when it's reported that the statute begins to run so you were that's when you were getting the they were going after the school teacher the the priest or the minister or the coach for something that happened 10 years earlier but but the victim has just now prosec or it's just now reported so when he reports it is when the statute R you might be a child you get abused you don't tell anyone for 10 years you go to therapy in college and then the therapist is like you should report this then you go to the police and you say hey this person abused me when I was a child and that's when the statute begins exactly that makes sense so so I wrote an article statute without limitations you know criticizing this movement and and all that it they were they were BS articles but it was just it was as much me screwing with them is anything else did it help you ingratiate into the group like people were reading it saying like oh this guy gets it well and and that's where we get to so now I'd only been in the group I'd been in for less than a year and I find out that their their National meetings let me back up so the Jeffrey Curley case has happened oh yeah can you explain what the Jeffrey Curley case is okay so in the in the mid 90s I I I don't know that I have my years right I think it was 96 or 97 there was a a a boy up in the Boston Massachusetts area Jeffrey Curley lost his bicycle his mother had said you you're not going to get a new bike until Christmas he there were two men that lived in the neighborhood Salvador Sakari and Charles James and they they lived in the neighborhood Charles James was an amblem member and he decided he found out that Jeffrey Curley had lost his bicycle so he decided that he was going to promise Jeffrey Curley a new bike and this would be sort of his entree into having sex with Jeffrey Curley so he ends up they lure Jeffrey Curley into the car Sakari is the driver of the car Charles James is in the back seat he ends up um Jeffrey Curley suffocating him killing killing him they take the the body U put it into a trash container put lime in the trash decompose it and then throw it off a bridge so it it went from Massachusetts to I think New Hampshire to Maine I mean it it covered like three states where they finally dispose of the body when they when they eventually catch Janes and Sakari Janes is a NAMBLA member when they search his house they find the nbla bulletins the the their their magazine they find out that the day that he had actually seduced Jeffrey Curley he had been in a public library on the nbla website where there were articles in the bulletin about not how necessarily to seduce boys but that there's nothing wrong with your attraction to boys and um kind of a fun thing to do is share pornography with them and and shower with them and and and do these type of things so curly and Sakari are both convicted um there was no death penalty at that time in Massachusetts there was an effort to bring the death penalty back because these two guys did this and got away with it and they're not going to be executed but they both got life um and I and I'm sure it was life without parole as I recall and as we know life in prison as a it's not a good time exactly yeah so now in the meantime the the parents of Jeffrey Curley they file a civil wrongful death lawsuit and name nbla in the the civil lawsuit because essentially they're saying nbla encouraged it it promoted it it gave him the the confidence yeah exactly thank you um to to go ahead and do this and attack I so they they went after nbla during all the discovery Discovery is a legal term when you want to go after the members they're trying to get the membership lifts of nbla so they can find out who is part of all this that so they take a a deep hit I mean they're going they're they're digging they're digging they're going after the namble of the organization who the members are and and all of this this and that freaked out nbla more than anything as as I subsequently learned at one point nbla had about 1,200 members they had about 6,000 people on their mailing list but they had 12,000 that were members well people are dropping like flies they're getting off the the membership list uh when I first when I went to my first nbla conference I was told there were I I think uh 350 members on the membership list because people just dropped off because of the Jeffrey curlyy lawsuit um interestingly enough kind of getting back to our first amendment are the ACLU defended nbla in that uh in that civil lawsuit because again they're arguing that nbla is a First Amendment protected organization and they they had nothing to do with the death of this child it was if you want to sue somebody bu Su Charles James and and Salvadore Sakari Casa gets dismissed so they never do go after nbla but because nbla had taken this hit with the membership has fallen off um so now I'm in I'm in uh nbla I find out that their National meetings now they're not meeting in libraries they're not meeting in public venues they are having secret meetings and they only having secret meetings once a year and I find out that they're having a meeting in San Francisco for their their kind of their annual secret meeting and I contact nlin New York and just say hey I live on the west coast I'd really like to go to the the namble meeting in San Francisco and essentially I get back you have to be a member for three years and have to be sponsored by another member before we'll allow you to come to our meetings so I was like okay okay you know I'll just go on and and uh work my joint terrorism task force leads and and work those cases and in between doing a couple other undercover cases when when something came up so again I'm writing for the magazine I'm I'm I'm participating in the penp pal program I've got guys that are in prison that are thanking NAMBLA in New York that you know Robert uh is is really a good guy because he's participating and we appreciate U the the encouragement and the support that he's he's giving us so now the next year the meeting is here in New York now did any of the guys defend the curly case like did any of the prisoners or was there ever any discussion about it did namble ever denounce it to your knowledge um I I would say I don't I I don't think n came out with a press release but I know in my discussions with with Peter Herman he said look you know we we can't control all of our members this guy this guy Charles James is not representative of of our group we didn't we didn't really do anything wrong um it we just it it was a essentially a bad apple in in the organization h yeah that's pretty uh that's pretty gross so now they have a meeting happening in New York City you've been a member for three years I've been a member I know no I haven't I've only been a member for a year and a half and I so I've I've written for the magazine I've been in the penpal program I've done the Christmas cards that next Christmas then I asked for a lot more members and I and I and I'm I'm getting more members so I get invited to the nbla meeting here in New York and it's their 25th anniversary so I've I've I've kind of pierced the veil you know I'm the the corporate veil I'm I'm now considered that I'm I'm worthy of being invited even though I haven't been in for three years but they view me as a True Believer because I uh because I've I've been participating so I get invited to to the New York meeting and that that is an experience in and of itself and this is the first time you've ever actually met Nam members in person yes this is this is going to be my this is going to be my first time okay and initially as an undercover agent you know you just don't pick up and go travel you got to get permission to do all this stuff if for no other reason you want to make sure you get reimbursed you don't want to get you don't want to get stuck with the bill if if they decide to say oh no we we're not going to authorize this so um my case agent puts in a request to go to the meeting The Bureau says no you can't do it namble is a a First Amendment protected organization uh we we're not here to to judge morality they're they have a right to associate they have a right to Advocate whatever they want so I'm G to I'll be frank we knew one of the board members one of the members of the steering committee that's the steering committee is our governing body so one of their steering committee lived in California we knew his name and he wasn't registered uh he was a registered sex offender but not living where he said he was with the California state sex registry that's a violation it's a violation so um we reworked the proposal to headquarters we sent out essentially leads to all the offices we said we have an undercover agent that is uh has an opportunity to go to a meeting in New York of of an organized group of is anyone looking for any fugitive boy lovers and if so let La know and provide details and all this now I got to kind of wipe the smile off my face we assumed nobody was going to send us any leads nobody sent us any leads but in terms of our proposal now to headquarters it's we have an undercover agent that has infiltrated this organization we know that one of the members of the steering committee is not living where he said he's living our plan is to try to determine where this registered sex offender is living and we have reached out to every other division in the FBI with the hopes that if he can discover fugitives that they are seeking that would be a member of this organization so now the bureau comes back and says okay you can go that's that's fine but you know you're not to disrupt the organization that's that's not what you're doing I think one of the prosecutors that we dealt with as as the case goes on he he said it probably probably uh very clearly that nbla is a pile of [ __ ] we're not going after the pile we're going after the flies that are hovering over the so no you're not targeting NAMBLA you're targeting the Flies why why not just I don't I because again it comes down to the First Amendment so are they afraid of getting counter sued like is there a legal component where they're like oh if we are too aggressive and trying to break up this organization we're going to be in violation of the First Amendment rights and we're going to get sued out the W well I maybe sued but just you don't want Congress I I mean you know you you even in recent news there's there's been issues with with efforts that the FBI has taken the federal government has taken on different organizations and oh my gosh that you know you can't go after this you can't go you can't say this because the the organization is allowed to exist so you you you can't you can't do this um so and there there had been there had been so many problems like in the early 70s with the Weather Underground with with some of these different groups that they had in infiltrated the anti-war protesters which it was okay it was legal to protest the war it just wasn't legal to to burn down buildings and and and all that so the bureau contrary to what some of the public and a lot of politician believe they're they're not out to violate the constitutional rights of anybody so I mean they were right to be cautious but again it was sort of like how you wrote up the paperwork and uh right so now I'm I'm going to my first nbla conference do you have any idea why they did it in New York well most of the steering committee members lived in either New York or San Francisco so that so those were that was I think part of the reason ironically I never did meet anybody that lived in Boston you know so but most of the people I ran into at at this conference lived in New York or New Jersey and then there were quite a few members that were from the Bay Area now going into this do they have any type of outline of what the conference will be or what the objective of the conference is or what you're expected to do at the conference and is there any like hesitation or uh concern from you going into it there mark this was the most paranoid group that I had infiltrated you know we've we've talked about this in previous broadcasts but uh i' I dealt with the mafia I dealt with the Mexican Mafia you know members of the Mexican Mafia i' I've dealt with Asian criminal syndicates I had never met a group that was as paranoid as this group so all they said in the invitation essentially was we're going to celebrate our 25th anniversary and we are going to meet on a Friday evening it was Veterans Day weekend I was a marine I'm ready to celebrate uh the Marine Corps birthday November 10th and and uh it was always a big deal in LA office because we had so many marines so we'd get together and have a celebration and cut the birthday cake and kind of go through the the the ceremony for the Marine Corps birthday I was I was going to miss it because I'm going to the Ula conference so um the IDE a was we were going to meet at Grand Central Station in the Dining Concourse and then once we meet there they will tell us where the meetings will take place on Saturday because they were so afraid that if they publish it in advance that law enforcement is going to set up and photograph everybody that goes in and possibly raid the place so and I imagine now after the curly case all the people that are going to this conference are one probably extremely paranoid and two probably the most depraved of the group if you're still going to a conference after there's a massive lawsuit and a murder and like the most vile act you could do to a child I imagine these people are pretty committed to the cause I I think you're right um I'm not here to defend nbla and but they kind of fell in two categories and one of the guys I talked with at at this me meeting he he laid it out he said that about 70% of the nbla members and he he didn't have he hadn't done a survey but he's just estimating that 70% of the the nbla members are essentially Psychopaths and 30% are true boy lovers so what is the difference okay so so so these men there were men that that I believe sincerely believed that there was nothing wrong with loving boys now I'm not saying necessarily sex but that boy loving of loving boys was natural and so they wanted to get close to boys they wanted they wanted relationships with boys they wanted to love them to nurture them um and they want to do that but there were 70% that would just slam bam thank you ma'am let me have sex with a with a a boy because that's what I'm attracted to and screw the rest of you um but and I met some men that for them The Grooming process was as exciting as actual sex so they they just considered themselves boy lovers they were just as you and I are attracted to women they were attracted to boys and just as you and I with our spouses you know would whine them and dine them and talk nice to them with the idea that maybe we'll get married they looked at this grooming process as whining and dining and being nice and and then eventually we will have a relationship so you go to the New York conference go to the New York conf you meet a Grand Central Station and like you had mentioned before I'm expecting you to walk into a bunch of weirdos that just got out of their parents' basement that you know the drag of society and you'll be able to smell them from a mile away and and you know determine who they are is that the case so we get to we get to New York when I say we my Cas and I get to New York we meet with the New York office we let them know what what I'm going to be doing uh I'm meeting with the a surveillance team they know that this first meeting is going to take place at Grand Central Station on on Friday night um Friday evening I think it was like five o'clock or something like that uh it was it was always comforting when you get you'd meet Agents from other officers like the surveillance agents that they didn't look like Jed G Hoover you know they weren't wearing white button- down collar shirts and all this these guys look look great they look like they could fit in and everything so I take the cab to Grand Central Station I get my crutch out um I start to hobble around and uh it's like I'm going to the ner conference I have no idea what these people look like the Bureau didn't have an intelligence file on them so it wasn't like I was infiltrating the mob and I have a picture of John Gotti and Paul castalano or any like this from the internet I have some grainy photographs of people but um I really wasn't aware of what I who I was going to be seeing or who I was going to be meeting and I'm kind of in and out of a few shops and then it was kind of like okay I'm I'm fashionably late cuz I do think I said 5:00 I think it was 6:00 and I looked at my my watch and it was 6:15 it's like okay I'm fashionably late let's go down to the Dining Concourse and I'm I'm walking down with my little cane I'm trying to affect this this U limp because of my medical condition I look over as I'm looking down it's like holy crap you know s send casting send me some perverts I it was obvious initially what did this group was because I knew there wasn't going to be a sign namble meets here and I looked to that group and I see it and it's like that is them that that's the group I you know this is this is it and and I'm getting excited but before I do I go to the bathroom and we've talked about this before I I do have faith and I do believe I was there and my favorite Bible verse verse was Deuteronomy 318 the Lord himself will go before you and be with you he will never leave you nor forsake you do not be discouraged do not be afraid and and I'm standing at the urinal and I'm quoting this Bible verse in my head and I'm going God we're going to the nbla conference and so as I'm walking out of the bathroom one of the surveillance agents walks by and he whispers to me he said they're in the middle of the they're in the middle because he thought I didn't see him I said I got it and so I go in and I bble up and I start introducing myself hi I'm Robert from California [Music] and some welcomed me some were kind of cautious but uh it was we were just all kind of talking and I'm I'm listening to them talk about oh it's so great to see I haven't seen you in a year and this is going to be so great to talk about our history and and share all this and uh so I just began talking to him not openly I had been warned by a previous namble member that I talked to who dropped out of the organization that if you go to that first conference don't say too much you know the just listen uh just just be cautious and I was anyway because I was never sure that I was going to say the wrong thing you have have to understand if if I'm being hired to kill somebody they don't really care whether I like football or soccer they don't care whether I'm a Republican or Democrat whether I like the ballet or Broadway right they just want to know do I have the street creds do I have can I pull the trigger you're moving drugs you're shipping fake cigarettes nobody cares nobody cares what your background is as long as they think you can do the deal now I'm in this group um as an example one of the guys we eventually convicted had had videotaped a silen learning commercial because he was in love with the little boy on the commercial and just kept watching it over and over again um one of their favorite movies was Lord of the Flies because it was a bunch of boys running around in their underwear I mean I had to now I've got to think like them and I'm not sure I can you know I'm not sure I'm going to say the the wrong thing that that does at one point in in one of our casual conversations it came up who's your favorite boy actor and I was like CRA I couldn't even think of anybody but someone early on had said Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons so when it came around to me I just said oh Ricky Schroeder Silver Spoons oh yeah he's cute you know and all that so I'm not even thinking like this and uh but I had my mind had to be that way which in many respects made this a a more difficult case just to try to constantly be thinking like they're thinking and and being afraid there in in one of the one of the meetings we had was right after the election and one of the members had mentioned that he voted for George Bush because uh George Bush was going to reform uh the medical malpractice law and this guy was a dentist and he said ah you know it's eatting into my eatting into my profession and they just jumped on him oh I can't believe you vote Republican you know and and all that so again I've got to be careful what I say because even the slightest M I don't know what you know this the wrong word at the wrong time May reveal that I'm not really a true boy lover and it's hard to know what things they associate with like I wouldn't necessarily associate like a political affiliation like I wouldn't associate like oh voting for this president or or this candidate or this candidate would be more boy lover than the other or like you know oh I'm a subscriber to this religion or I'm I do I do I'm from this state so there for things are like this it's hard to know what they would catch on to so it makes sense that not talking that much would actually be be beneficial now are you wearing a wire during this whole meeting the the very first meeting I didn't because I didn't I wasn't sure if they were going to Pat us down if they were going to make a strip uh because I I knew how paranoid they were so that that first meeting I wasn't wearing a wire so we we're now at Grand Central Station uh eventually I said to somebody um hey it's it's Peter here and so they point to Peter Herman Peter melzer and I in my mind I'm thinking okay this is this may not be the Babe Ruth of nbla but this guy is in the namble Hall of Fame so I walk up and introduce myself and say uh I'm Robert from California and he goes oh Robert you know we're so glad to to have you here thank you for your participation we U for submitting articles for the bulletin and we've heard good things about you with the penpal program you know glad to have you have you here so now he kind of takes control of the group and says here's what we're going to do um some of you are from the local area you you probably don't want to do this but others of you um we're going to take a a tour of Time Square so we're just going to take a little walking tour of Time Square and and Peter actually asked me he said are you are you okay can you can you do it because of my my handicap and I said oh yeah yeah I'm looking forward to this so we're starting to walk and I I've met a couple other guys and I end up meeting a guy named Jeff D'Or who is out of California it turns out that he's a uh an ordained minister SL chiropractor SL instructor at a chiropractic school in Los Angeles so now at least I made that connection and this is his first nbla conference so uh of course this is my first dble conference so we've we've made that connection uh we're taking we're taking the Walk we're we're getting there and Mark as we get a little bit closer you can something's going on you can sense the excitement I mean it's and it's like I I I could sense it what what's going on here and it's I guess it's kind of like when you go to the big game and you're starting to walk up to give your ticket to to seat and you can hear the crowds roaring and all this we're going into to toys or us in Time Square and there's a 60-foot indoor Ferris wheel and these men you're so you're taking this whole group of into the Toys R Us where parents have brought their kids for Friday night entertainment and the kids are lined up to go on the on the ferris wheel so they're some of these men literally ran to the railing and they're standing at the railing watching these kids and I hobble over and I'm listening to them talk and it's almost as if they're playing the dating game so it's like ah look at that kid in the I I want the kid in the 30 number 32 Jersey oh I I want the red stripes I you know I'm going to do this to them I'm going to do that to them and there were two things one had I not been undercover I think I would have thrown him over the railing and two it it dawned on me and Probably sounds stupid to the to your subscribers but it dawned on me holy crap not everybody's in prison these guys are still out here and they're talking about what they want to do to kids I mean this is this is disgusting and it was I I won't say it was an epiphany but it was kind of like Bob you better take this seriously because you know this isn't a a bunch of good old boys that are are just smoking and joking uh they they want to have sex with little boys so we've we leave the Toys R Us we walk past I I can't remember the name of the building I know it was 520 something and Peter says okay everybody this is where we're meeting tomorrow this is where our meeting will be we will if anybody asks it's the Wallace Hamilton publishing uh it's a seminar that they're it's a publishing seminar so if anyone asks it that's what that's where we're going to that's what you say you're attending the the publishing seminar now we go to we go to another place for dinner I'm seating with I I sit with with Jeff and another guy that was from Michigan um and again I'm not wearing a wire but all of the the three of us there may have been four but at least the three of us this was our first meeting so Jeff the ordained minister the chiropractor he's talking about he's so excited to be here he he he was married he's now divorced uh he's got kids uh he came out as being gay his kids were embarrassed by him because he came out with being gay um but he met a boy online in Los he lives in Los Angeles met him in B Park in San Diego and they had sex and then he met him again on his birthday and had sex with him and then there was another boy that they introduced so they had a threesome and I'm going crap I'm not wearing a wire you know uh can I get him to repeat this and then Joe then this other guy I think his name was Jo Joe as I recall but he he wrote Symphonies and it's like boy this is really cool well it turned out that he had written a symphony never been published but he was a janitor you know he was a custodian so I was like Symphony writer SL custodian or something or he was a building guard or something but what whatever it was but he was playing up his his occupation yeah yeah and um and and just for clarification how many people were in the overall group okay so there were only 35 people that you say only I mean that's a sizable chunk of people to be walking around Toys R Us yeah yeah no and um and then it was just the three or four of you that went to dinner well at this table we all went to this restaurant but we only three or four and and I noticed that all the kind of the established members sat at another table and new guys sit at se table and they're kind of looking at us and I'm in my mind I'm thinking okay can they hear Jeff talking openly about the sex are they thinking this is too dangerous or are they just checking us out or have they suspected that I'm really an FBI agent you know my my conspiratorial mind is is is um moving and everything so we get done with dinner and now we kind of gather in a group to get ready to to go to our our separate way to come back tomorrow morning to begin the conference and again it was one of these well where are you staying well some were staying at the YMCA some were staying at the youth hostel uh I was like at the youth hostel yeah holy crap I'm thinking and I don't even know what a youth hostle is or where it is but that's where they were staying and and I'm thinking this is where kids are hanging out I mean you know Willie Sutton when they asked Willie Sutton why do you rob banks he said that's where the is so it made sense that I guess that this is where this guy these guys trying I was staying at a at a nicer Hotel I figured your tax dollars were paying for this and and I'm not I'm not hanging out at some place so I'm walking back uh once I know I've kind of left the group I'm walking a little faster with my cane but again as I mentioned before I didn't talk to too many agents about what I was going through but my son um who who I I trusted dear played professional baseball out signed a pro contract out of high school and been a marine and all this kind of stuff and not yet but I think I called I think it was probably in Winter ball or something I called him and this is going to sound racist but I just called him I said where's a Palestinian when you need him I said let's strap strap a give me a suicide vest I'll walk in there tomorrow and I'll just pull the pen I'll blow us all up I'll do more for society if I I kill all of us um then to um let these guys walk out of the room so I actually surprisingly got a pretty good night's sleep and the next morning we begin the the nbla conference did you talk to the case agent or surveillance after that first day not the surveill I my case agent was staying at the hotel and so uh it was a female and I just explained to her I said well here's what happened the the first night and U we're we're ready to rock and roll and and go to the first day of the conference and you're taking the wire with you into the this time now I'm wearing a I'm wearing a wire I figure I I got through the the first meeting and nothing happened there they weren't they weren't doing metal detectors or anything like that and what are you looking to get from them in this meeting in order to get a prose ution at that point I I wouldn't say it was a fishing Expedition but it was just we're going in here you know I guess to come back to the a USA's comments I'm I'm going to see what the Flies are doing and what we can do what can I get on tape what what can I see them talking about what's actually going to happen in the meetings and uh interestingly enough as I'm walking in one of the members is parked at the curb and they're bringing food in boxes of food we take the elevator to the 15th floor and then we walk up the stairs to the 16th floor th those were our instructions so again it was this paranoia that we don't we don't want people to know which floor we're on so your instructions are take the 15th and then take the step up to the 16th floor so that's that's what we've I mean I assume the elevator went to the 16th floor but we we we go into this room it's it's not a big room it certainly isn't worthy of an organization celebrating his 25th year we had no banners up we had no no frills there it was just it was just a meeting Hall where where we were meeting somewhat I ironically on the same floor a group of boys that were practicing or they was preparing for a a play or musical or something and on the floor there was only a one whole toilet I mean there's just a one hleer there one for for this entire floor so I'm in the meeting with the 35 nbla members and we begin the meeting and what is the the nature of the meeting what is the discussion it was interesting Peter organized the he was kind of in charge of the first meeting and he goes um what we'd like to do now is is start with a safety lecture and I'm thinking we a condom I mean what safety lecture what are you talking about and he turns it over to a guy named Rock Thatcher which I find out rock Thatcher is not his real name he told me his first name was Peter but in the Bible Peter is The Rock right and fer is can't you thatch a field so maybe his last I can't remember now whether his last name was wheat or his last name was fields or something but anyway he made up this Alias of rock Thatcher and I knew the name Rock Thatcher because of the submissions in the the namble bulletin oh wow so now he starts the safety lecture and I'm assuming like I said I'm assuming it's you know how to have safe sex or something and he talks about we're this is an organization we're a First Amendment organization we're not here to commit crimes uh don't do this don't do that we've been infiltrated in the past and Mark this is true again if you saw it in a movie it's like I'm throwing the BS flag he said we've been infiltrated in the past and he sat right there in that seat and it was a the seat I'm sitting in and it's like crap do they know I mean are these 35 people going to jump on me now and beat the crap out of me and all this kind of stuff yeah well that's that's I figured out you know I've faced tougher guys and uh and he said so even if you know somebody you don't know where they've been the past year uh they may be uh they may have been arrested and they may be working off a beef uh so don't ask where you can find pornography in in New York City don't ask where you can find boys that's not why we're here so the safety lecture was all about setting up the rules for what you can talk about and what you can't talk about and why we're here and then somebody piped in and said you know I've always advocated we should allow the police to come and they should record our meetings CU we we don't do anything illegal in meeting uh discuss anything that's illegal and it was kind of interesting because I sort of smiled at myself and thought well you have invited the police and you are being recorded so we'll see what happens and and I did find the meetings were extremely boring I mean it was talking about the history of of the organization and and uh their past successes and where they wanted to go with the with the organization but it was during the breaks that there was a little bit more of the sort of the criminal conversation but now Peter says okay let's all introduce ourselves you don't have to use your real name you don't have to say anything if you don't want to you don't have to use your real name and they go around and and different people are are introducing themselves and again as I said when I first saw it was U Central Casting send me perverts but not everybody looked like it when I when I I realized when I got closer that um I mean I don't think I look like a pervert but I fit in I mean there were guys that looked normal I mean they looked like they could be the youth league coach the the minister or whatever um they just there were some that yep that guy looks like he lives in his mom's basement and 50 years old and single and and plays on the computer one guy was a Bob was a lawyer out of Atlanta and he looked like Santa Claus you know had a had a white beard and very articulate Smart Guy Peter had a was a physics teacher so he was he was smart there were School teachers one guy was an organist from uh the Baptist Church in in Atlanta or in Georgia uh some some were basically illiterate there was one guy there from Denmark he was the only one that was from from out of the country most everybody was white and most of them didn't look like they I mean quite a few of them look like they didn't have a pot to piss in I mean they they just didn't they didn't come across as necessarily being wealthy although there was a dentist there um so so they were educated people everyone's saying why they're coming and for the most part it was this camaraderie the opportunity to be around like-minded people and not have to worry about what you're saying and they came to me and I just wasn't sure what I again I I wasn't sure what to say uh that the night before when we were at the uh when we were standing there in the the Dining Concourse there were four cops that probably within 25 feet of us that there were that were standing there and and I'm kind of looking over at the cops and I'm thinking okay they're getting ready to bust us all up and uh arrest everybody and because they're kind of over there weren't it wasn't Criminal conversation but there was conversation and you see a young boy that's running by either with his parents or running to get to the train and all the heads would turn you know cuz because this this little boy they were attract the little boy and so they get to me it's my turn and I said I'm I'm Robert from California and this is my first time and even last night I was so worried with those police and I start crying and I'm just glad to be here and I start crying and the guy next to me puts his hand on my knee and Pats my knee and he says it's okay you know this it was tough for me my first time too and so they passed and I mean they believe the tears what the hell and it never and then kind of like during the breaks people came up to me and said you know like to put their arm around my shoulder and just say you're fine you know just you're you're safe here and uh so so now we we kind of get into the meetings and and and talking about it um there was one point um Jim I know as last name I won't say it just because I don't want to get sued but he was a school teacher there were quite a few School teachers in this place um one guy sponsored an orphanage over in the Philippines um a guy named Ted who seemed pretty nice I mean he was some of them I Ted was a guy that he was uh he was very courteous he was outgoing he was kind of like a politician needing a few more votes and shaking hands and everything and it just sort of seemed like I'd like to have lunch with Ted I'd like to find out a little bit more about him but he sponsored an orphanage over in the Philippines so whether he had sex with those kids I don't think but I kind of think he was more of a the true boy lover than uh man I can't wait to meet a kid in baloa park and have sex with this kid MH but I I'm talking with Jim and we're talking about the namam membership and this younger guy walks over and interrupts us and I was kind of it's like damn we're having a conversation here pal you know you just interrupt and this guy said oh I Jim I understand you're from New Jersey I'm from New Jersey and know so they start talking and that's when the conversation came up and this guy said I I I was reluctant to come and Jim said well you know I dropped out for a while with that Jeffrey Curley thing and I think a lot of people have but now I've come back and I just know that Peter carefully screens anybody and it would take a very skilled operator to to fool us and I'm kind of sitting there with an inner glow that yeah well Peter doesn't screen screen him nearly as well as you think they do and uh I must be a skilled operator because you guys are buying this act and that's when they have the conversation about 70% are the the the Psychopaths and and 30% are the true boy lovers and and Jim talked about he was a photographer and he lived across the street from a Catholic boy School in New Jersey and would take pictures of the boys and uh and had them posted on the inter not naked pictures but just pictures of boys and that's again that's what these guys are gathering up they have pictures of boys not necessarily pornography but they just they love boys they love to look at love to look at pictures of boys and it seems like they all had some proximity to children in some capacity like either they were a teacher they live near a school like is that is that fair to say I I think I think it is but again it kind of comes back to the Willie Sutton you know you're you're not going to find probably you're not going to find too many true boy lovers to live out in the woods by themselves I mean they're going to they're going to be where they can they they can be around kids MH um we through the introductions we we had Sunday school teachers we had Boy Scout leaders we had U you know I met a guy that was a big brother uh you know it was just you you you wanted to be there any politicians or any people in like power positions that you know and it's interesting you say that when when I first wrote the book and we were trying to find a publisher that's what they were looking for well do you have a you have a politician did you get a judge or anything and nobody nobody was um we we just had what I found in in the group of the ones that I was dealing with with for the most part and there were some that weren't but they were high functioning individuals in society so they they weren't the guy that hung out at the public restroom that you know you looked you knew by looking at him that he was half crazed right um so how many days is the convention in total three days well at Saturday and Sunday so what the meetings again are relatively boring during the breaks we we don't get into too much but but we do talk about it um at one point Peter comes up to me and he said uh would you be willing to be on the steering committee and I'm thinking and that's their governing body and he makes they make a big deal about the steering committee and so we need we need to recruit younger members or not new members to be on the steering committee to help us and I prove my dedication and I guess I was relatively smart enough to write articles for the magazine so um yeah we'll um would you like to be on the steering committee and I knew the bureau would have they would have a contion fit if I accepted a job on the because this would be disrupting the organ had I been a journalist yeah I'll be on the steering committee I can get the membership list and I expose all these people but I declined to be on the steering committee I actually left early Sunday morning before they voted on the new steering committee members before they voted on some policy changes and all that because I didn't even want I didn't want it to come up I I I wasn't sure where the case was going but I I didn't want the First Amendment argument that we had attempted to disrupt the organization because in the case we get thrown out and none of these people could get prosecuted EXA yeah I'm going after the Flies not the pile of manure that makes sense so you declin I declined and then I came home I you know we're back in La I maintained my relationship with um with Jeff now while I was there I they were going to write pamphlets they decided that they wanted to write a bunch of pamphlets so that they could have something to distribute and one was on privacy one was on coming out as a boy lover one was on famous boy lovers and all this kind of stuff so I agreed to be on the Privacy pamphlet because Joe from California that we didn't know where he lived he was he was on that Jim my buddy the photographer who said 70% were essentially Psychopaths um was on it so I thought they were really serious about writing this I came back to Los Angeles I start putting together the outlines of the the pamphlet submit my ideas never heard from anybody you know and it it came down to this first amendment organization designed to abolish age of consent laws did nothing to abolish age of consent laws there was there was never any discussion in this two-day meetings about lobbying efforts which um which politicians should we write to letters to the editor it it was not political at all it was all about during the breaks let let's talk about let's talk about boys and when I get to the second conference then it even gets it gets better but at that first conference end i' kept my mouth shut I didn't do a whole lot I came away with Jeff's contact Jeff D'Or contact information and I'm I didn't do anything to reveal you know I didn't blow it I guess if you can say that at a nbla conference so then now you have a year between this conference and the next conference you just continue to write to members in prison continue to write I'm I'm working um by this time now I'm I'm involved in operation Smoking Dragon so I'm I'm working that undercover case and I'm I'm working the ner case I was maintaining contact with Jeff we we would occasionally have dinner or something eventually with with Jeff who was Jeff Jeff D'Or the chiropractor Min ordained minister that lived in uh the Los Angeles area and your private correspondence with him is it kind of the same conversations and yeah we it was just um let's get together at one point I told him that uh my computer crashed and I lost my entire pornography collection and it was just devastating to lose this and now I I don't have anything he was not what what I was expecting he was going through a 12-step sexual addiction program um trying trying to get away so so he was telling me in the corresponds and and in our meetings that uh he was trying to up his age of consent his age of Attraction he he was trying to trying to do it legally he was trying to get the 18y olds but he was having trouble doing it and he was still corresponding with kids online at one point he told me that he had met a 14-year-old in in Canada and they had both masturbated on online and it was so exciting and his his goal was to u to go up to Canada to meet with the boy someday so we're we're thinking okay this guy's you know he's he's not he's failing his sexual addiction program MH um but the fact that he was in a program in the first place is a is a strange dichotomy it seems like that there is an awareness that what he's doing is IM moral it's vile and illegal and he's trying to sort of fight it but is is failing it's it just seems bizarre no I I agree I I and and again it's not what I was expecting I mean and again he had been married for I think 20 years he had older kids I mean just it it wasn't it wasn't what what I would have said was the U stereotypical amble member in in terms of what I was seeing but uh so then a year goes by yeah year goes by I actually was still maintaining the the correspondence with the the members with a couple of the members that had written me really graphic letters and everything several states have uh civil commitment procedures so that if you've if you've served your criminal time for sexual for a sexual crime they can still keep you in if they can prove that you are not rehabilitated or you're you're going to go back and reoffend so it's there are different civil commitment procedures Florida was very tough on this so I was dealing with a couple different guys one out of Ohio and one out of Florida that we ended up submitting our letters to them and so they were kept in under civil commitment procedure so so that was I you know it was kind of it was kind of a good score you you got to understand in most of my undercover operations at least very quickly we had a criminal violation so if if you're doing a drug deal you you get the sample before you make the big by so you know you you've got that if you're with some of the others it was always in operation smoking dragging you relatively quickly we got the counterfeit cigarettes so we at least we've got a criminal violation in the NBL thing we weren't I'm there I'm I'm dealing with these people but we don't have we don't have anything we don't have any criminal violations yet that that we can do anything so at the very least with these letters we kept two people in so I guess you could say you know we sort of put some points on the board but but uh nothing major nothing major do you feel like the bureau is taking it seriously do you find that they are looking at the case and saying like oh this is a real problem and we should you know put more guys into it or are they kind of no the the the bureau wasn't and when I say Bureau you know headquarters we really there really wasn't even they had kind of moved on to other things so they weren't they weren't even looking at this and and we weren't we weren't keeping them updated with this this the stuff we were doing and so when is the next conference so now the next conference is roughly a year later and it's in uh Miami Florida and and I get invited that I I'd been notified that my dues were up and I even I even questioned whether it even re up because la wasn't taken that big an interest in the case I had transferred down to San Diego so I'm working the the the Asian criminal Syndicate case out of San Diego even though it's it's up in La I'm working at the Vietnamese gang case which is out of San Diego I've got the nbla case but La wasn't all that interested when I got to San Diego I met an agent um John CRS and he he worked the the Cyber crimes and the the the FBI's Initiative for child exploitation and I I I'm not even sure I I think I just I I I looked it up I tried to find somebody in the office said you know who's who's working this in the office and so I met with John and I explained what I had done in LA and oh he was so enthusiastic and his super U Jeff McKinny they they both said let's do it let's let's go after it so I had an enthusiasm in San Diego that I that I wasn't seeing in La um and and in La it had kind of fallen off the radar except my occasional correspondence because I was I was kneed deep in U in Smoking Dragon so uh John and Jeff they they said let's let's go after it so I submit my new dues now I get u a letter from NAMBLA announcing our next conference is in Miami Florida and I get invited to that when I got the conference it was going to be at a uh I think it was called the Miami River Inn it it was a a g bed and breakfast and it it was going to be there and uh they had uh we we had a discount for double occupancy rooms and I said uh you know I took the invitation into John and his supervisor and I said just for the record I'm not double occupying my room with an AM member and John joked and he he said you know a real undercover agent would take one for the team no and I said nope not uh so because of my medical condition you know I needed I contacted them and I said due to my medical condition I need my own room so your tax dollar sprang for me to get uh a single room but I i' had five recording devices too that you know that I was bringing with me so I needed to I was going to need to hide those things and I I didn't need a roommate going through my luggage and and finding it so so now we we show up to Miami to begin the LA office and and I do give them credit they had set up a travel agency uh they were looking they they they were kind of setting up an initiative U to go after what they were hoping would men uh looking to have sex with girls and be because of our travel agency case the year before they thought well maybe you know maybe there's a way through our predicated chat rooms and all this so we can set up so they set up a traval agency so now when we're having our meetings obviously there are still portions of the NBL case that are in La we have a joint meeting between LA and San Diego to say that I'm going to go to I'm going to go there um La agrees to kind of split off their their girls with a boy so we we set up another travel agency a travel agency which which is going to cater to boy lovers my goal now since I've I've already been to one meeting I I was believed everything went well my goal now is to go into the Miami meeting and let's just see if we can't rock and roll and and get something started and I can be a lot more aggressive in this meeting um I had I I flew went to Florida I'd reserved a Mustang at the car rental agency because I just thought first of all i' like to drive a Mustang just figured that you know it'd be kind of cool and and it probably would add to my boy lover image because I'm I've got the same cover my my cover as a boy lover is the same cover that I have in operation Smoking Dragon uh my grandfather died I have a I have property I own a warehouse in Pomona Cali California I I I do that I um I have four or five clients that I manage their money I'm not a licens broker but I manage their money off the book so I'm I'm not independently wealthy but I'm comfortable so I need to be driving a Mustang show up to the I'm I'm Sorry by now my name is Robert Wallace what it happened my name Bob Bourne was exposed in a book The Animal in Hollywood so um they the bureau you know I had to get a new name so now I'm I'm Bob Wallace Robert William Wallace Freedom men don't follow titles they follow courage and and and to be clear Bob Bourne was your first Alias first Alias and that that was the one that you were using for uh the case with the Italian yes yes and then that got exposed in B that got exposed in the book The Animal in Hollywood so now you can't use that cover anymore because now it's public so new cover yeah so I had all the you know I had driver's license library cards you know any anything pocket litter you know everything in that name so get rid of all that so now I've got I'm starting all over again with Robert Wallace with my library card my Costco card my insurance cards all this kind of stuff so I I get to the car dealership or the rental agency at the airport to pick up my Mustang I'm sorry Mr Wallace uh we don't have a Mustang we have a Dodge Caravan for you like Dodge Caravan a soccer mom's car so I get the soccer van damn um You probably fit in better well it it it worked out you know God watches over you and it works out so uh I I had a couple different undercover credit cards I was using one exclusively for Smoking Dragon I show up to um the hotel there in Miami where I was going to stay the first night before I show up to the meetings the next day given my credit card it's declined and I was like crap I didn't bring my other I didn't bring the Smoking Dragon credit card because I didn't want I didn't want to cause problems for the accountants you know keep everything separate and there there was something was wrong with the credit card um I'm on the phone with the credit card company I can't tell look I'm an undercover FBI agent I'm I'm stuck in a hotel I can't pay for this I don't have cash how do it I'm I'm jumping through hoops I'm kind of getting upset and angry and finally and I I can't remember all the details but eventually it all gets cleared up and so that credit card so here we are I'm going to a amble conference I'm still uncomfortable with with playing the boy lover whether I can convince people I don't get the Mustang that I want the credit card is screwed up and I'm going into this conference not you know not angry and not 100% so I show up the next morning to the Miami River Inn and uh meet one of the guys who was at the New York conference as we're getting out of the car so it's like good you know Chuckles Happy Happy Talk how are you how's your year been and all this kind of stuff now we we walk we walk in I check in we it's uh we go to the little building where we're all because there's there's an area where it's different buildings different cottages and everything and this was like like a two-story building that had different rooms in it so we had that whole building and um I go in i i unpack I'm I'm wearing a wire I sit down in the lobby Peter meler Peter Herman brings in a guy named David and introduces me to David uh kind of a short round guy David sits down within a minute or two after Peter leaves he goes do you travel much and I said well I I live in California I said I I do go to Atlantic City quite a bit because I was going to Atlantic City in the the Asian criminal Syndicate case that's funny and dealing with the the Asians on the east coast and with the Russian mob guys so we more often than not we were meeting in Atlantic City so I said yeah I do well I'm an international flight attendant uh I fly for American Airlines and uh it's it's great I go to Thailand I don't if you ever been to Thailand no David I haven't been to Thailand oh it's great um the youngest I've had over there is eight uh he starts going into travel the travel and having sex with boys overseas and going down to Mexico using his benefits as a as a flight attendant to go to Mexico to have to have sex with boys so on tape on tape so so here it is Mark we're as we've talked about in previous broadcast you know we're worried about entrapment you know that we we want to make sure that you that and this is probably the closest you're going to come to entrapment type of thing I know you're a boy lover I know you've never had sex with a boy because you just love boys I'm going to offer you a boy now that might be entrapment so it was I knew going in it was pretty clear that I had to get them to initiate travel to say to kind of say that they've had sex in the past that they've traveled in the past just to avoid this whole ATT trapment issue here we are within two minutes of reporting teeing it up to to yeah putting that putting that thing on and bringing out big Bera and let's see if we can't keep it in the middle of the Fairway and um David is bringing up the whole travel thing now more guys are coming in and we decide that night that uh we're going to go to dinner and how are we gonna get there oh gee Bob has the soccer van so we pile five or six guys into my soccer Van van and and we go over to this restaurant again I'm thinking this is nula we're going to have a private room but instead we sit at a long table at this Brazilian uh Stak place which I didn't realize Brazilians use a lot of garlic so we're we're in there and and we're having conversations with everybody and and guys are fairly open about yeah you know I I love Namba I love boys uh this kind of thing and we're talking about back and forth U David talks about kind of talks about his travels um I meet Sam Sam lindblad he sits next to me uh former special ed teacher and and and we're just kind of talking and uh very good I see two people sitting off to the side that are not with us and I see them and it's like that's a little strange I I hope they're not cops because the one guy is is wellb built young and wellb built and I'm thinking uh I know they're not my surveillance agents I I I know they're not my case agent I I hope we're okay so now we go back to the river in we're sitting around the the big table somebody brings out some whiskey and paper cups and they start pouring drinks and I'm I've got the recorder going and they just start laying out the philosophy not necessarily the criminal stuff but just uh how how we live in archaic Society uh in the in agrarian society you became an adult at 14 and now we've artificially inflated childhood to 16 or 18 um just this this whole philosophy and the two guys that were in the that were at the restaurant they were sitting off the site they walk in and they weren't na I mean they weren't cops the one guy was an amblem member but was afraid to join the group and the other his other buddy was just kind of his crutch his support system and he is funnier than the heck I mean he's he's laughing and he's joking and making fun of everybody and and saying you know I'm bisexual I I'm married to a u my my my wife's a pole dancer she's she's it's okay for her to have le lesbian affairs but she caught me in the uh in bed with a guy and so and so then there was a whole big discussion about why lesbian affairs are okay but homos gay men Affairs aren't so I mean we're not necessarily getting criminal but it's just kind of these discussions that that um that you hear how they talk and at one point somebody says well I just came here um cuz I I'm just looking for an older sugar daddy to support me and David looks over at me and he smiles and he said I found my sugar daddy and Sam lindblad looks at me and he goes I found my sugar daddy and it's me so they they you know they and it was more of a joke but it was just that um I'm accepted I mean they're they're taking me in on this and the conversations even if they're not explicitly criminal they're all sexual in nature absolutely yeah everything almost everything is is sexual in nature except for Todd the dentist from Dallas the d triple D divorced dentist from Dallas and he flew in on his own plane oh really so when he mentioned like a private plane private plane so when he mentions that he flew in one of the other guys was a pilot so now they're having this big discussion back and forth about planes and all that and again it's I've said this to you before I'm not a smart man I don't have a whole lot of hobbies necessarily that I I can't talk about cool things but I just sat back and let them do let them do all the Talking the biggest problem we had was I don't tolerate garlic and uh my stomach was growling so in quite a bit of those conversations it just sounds like I'm farting so the tape record tape recorder is recording the the stomach growling and it was U fortunately there weren't the criminal conversations but it was embarrassing to listen to it I was glad we didn't have to play that in court so now we finished the night and now we're ready to begin the next morning uh I'm wearing a camera so i' I've got a body camera on and it's a button hole camera I've got wires running up my chest I've got the microphones taped in my chest I've got the camera in the body camera and um we go in to start the meeting Peter Begins the meeting with the introduction that safety lecture again similar to the safety lecture we receiv now this time I think there's only 16 or 17 that are and he makes a big point out of we are the select members um you know we we are the core we are the core of nbla and and uh we're here to kind of renew our invigorate and and renew our mission and we we don't to take step forwards and all this so they people start talking well Sam lindblad begins he's just been out of prison a year he did seven years this is his third conviction what was the conviction for child child oh God he admits that his wife caught him his son uh when he was the his little boy when his little boy was one year old um he did I just say he was special ed teacher um I mean the fact that the group is like accepting oh yeah yeah yeah this guy again is another clear violation of what they claim they're doing or what their Charter claims to be this is not a First Amendment group this is a group that's harboring in sort of at the very least protecting if not uh sort of edding these these uh and and encouraging I mean yeah the convicted these are not people that think about it these are actual right yeah so yeah so that you're you're absolutely right Mark it's not this is not well thank goodness I've never stepped over that line you know but I do love children I like to paint them I like to do this I like to do no this is I've been in prison for seven years for assaulting kids yeah so now we we kind of go around the room and and different people are making introduction and it was um one of the guys that David R buusby his real name was Greg nusa but his NAMBLA name was David R buusby which he later admitted to me those were four boys that he did that did he love so in order to honor those four boys he took the name David R buusby uh but it comes around to him so different people are saying why I'm attending the meeting and and what I'm looking for and all this uh we get to we get to Greg nusa and he explains that he had been in the Boy Scouts and he attended this meeting years ago where Ben love was the head of the Boy Scouts and he does this meeting and he's talking about this horrible organization nbla and uh and and and uh David Greg David R Busby says he's talking about this horrible organization that uh that prays on boys and my mouth is watering and I'm thinking oh this is so exciting so as soon as the meeting was over I joined nbla and that's that's how I i' never even heard of you guys until I went to that boy scout meeting so so I joined ambl so U so in that now somebody had said one of the members had talked about he was rambling as I am kind of doing now but he was rambling and talking about we've been accused of being a transn transnational sexual trafficking ring and uh all that and you know the the lies that are out there so now they come to me and I just said I'm Robert from California and I'm in charge of the trans transnational sexual trafficking ring and everybody starts laughing and Peter Herman no we don't talk about that no don't even joke about that that's how we get in trouble you know we we don't we know that we're not being recorded now but we don't even want to joke about that because that's the kind of stuff that causes us issues and I was like no Peter actually you are being recorded So on TV you think that the recorders Run Forever they don't I'm looking at my watch and realize that okay my recording time is just about up I excuse myself to go take my medication which is in the room because I still have osteogenetic osteomylitis results in spal thesis so I go back in take off the the camera now because I only had one camera but now I have the body recorder and and I have that on We Walk we're at the break everyone's out on the patio we we walk over sit down as soon as I sit down they're talking about travel so one of the guys dick stutzman who during the introductions and I this on tape he says I don't think I'm a sociopath uh I I I hear that word being thrown around a lot um there were times earlier in my life where I seduced youngers inappropriately but now I work as a mentor uh and a substitute teacher you know I'm just throwing myself out there but I've I've traveled I've uh in Amsterdam I've had sex with boys in am Dam and a brown skinned country it may have been turkey you know he's explaining I had sex with boys there and everything so again it it comes back to okay stutsman dick stutzman says he's traveled so now we've we we've kind of got this going well in the meantime the guy that that I was worried about was whether at the at the dinner whether he was a cop he comes in turns out that he's a personal trainer and a bodybuilder he's like I said he was a good-look guy David the international flight attendant he stands up and he kind of gets behind me and he's going oh he said that guy over there Paul he said I just want to play with his chest and he puts his hands on my shoulder and he comes down on my chest and he starts rubbing my chest and he goes I just want to play with his chest and he's rubbing and I can remember immediately thinking thank God that the FBI's equipment only lasted for the camera only lasted an hour and a half because wow I would have to explain why I've got four nipples and it again we've talked about this in previous broadcast coincidence you wouldn't you're not going to believe that scene if you're if you're seeing the movie wow but so now we go back in did you want to like swing on him like no no I mean it was just first of all I was in the role of I was Bob wall or Robert Wallace I wasn't Bob HR I'm not I'm not you know it wasn't like I was he was reaching for the package or something like that but uh it it was it was just surreal so now we go back in and we have a little bit more of the um the the meetings the the meetings that aren't interesting or that that important uh during that during that meeting out there and during one of the breaks David talks about you know this is all Bs you know where are the boys that's what I want to know where are the boy so David is David the international flight attendant and I will get into who he really is but David he's he's the one that's pushing all this he's pushing the travel he's he's talking about he's he's heard there's places in Costa Rica where we could go uh down in down in Mexico he's again talking about Thailand and all these different places that he he's been very open very forward very open uh and other guys because he's being open other guys are are opening up too about about the travel and and what they do and Bob the the attorney from Atlanta he says OU know I I love the boys I I love the namble bulletin I wish we had sexier pictures we like we used to but we can't do it anymore but I would rather just go to the beach and go you know look at boys on the beach so I mean you know we're just we're just getting more open not like it was in the New York conference that night we um we decided to go to dinner and I apologize to old women but these are like a bunch of old women they can't decide anything they they're kind of bickering back and forth where do we go what do we do what do we go well um David nus Greg nusa David R buusby was from the Miami area and one of the other guys was from the Miami area so they suggested let's go to coko beach and uh that there's some the main drag down there some great places to go great restaurants we'll go there and uh have fun so how we going to get there let's we'll all take cars um uh Paul the bodybuilder he's driving this hot Corvette so somebody rides with him in the Corvette Robert Wallace doesn't have the Mustang so everybody piles you know I've got six guys in in my soccer mom van and and we're talking and again I've got an older man in the front seat of the car who didn't even attend the conference but he was a friend of David R Busby and he was a boy lover and he's sitting in the front seat and he's his he has real medical issues and and we're just talking and he says uh trying to think how I wrote it out here how I he initiated but it was like do you like youth choirs or something like that and and I didn't I mean I like country and western music but uh I said well yeah he said well we have a choir here it's it's better than the Vienna Boys Choir and I just I just love it and uh I I go there and I watch these angels up on stage and and again it's the things that in my mind I'm not thinking like these people are thinking I know I I I I don't love there sit there and and watch the Vienna Boys Choir on public uh television PBS or anything like that we get to Coco Beach we get out of the car we meet there's some great restaurants around maybe one of the toughest aspect of this case there are beautiful women running around in bikinis I mean and I can't look at them you know my wife wouldn't would be mad if I looked at him anyway so I had to kind of pretend my wife was there but there are gorgeous women and of course none of us have any interest in these gorgeous women and they're they're kind of playing this old women's game what where do we going to eat let's go so there was a Hooters and I said you know let's go to Hooters because no one would suspect a bunch of bl's going to Hooters and that was voted down so so a bunch of them went to another restaurant well David my uh international flight attendant Todd my divorced D dentist from Dallas and Greg nusa the um David R Busby the who had been in the Boy Scouts he the four of us went over to Johnny Rockets and sat out on the the table so we could watch the boys and again it came down mark it was very similar to the um the ferris wheel oh let's play The Dating Game who who do you like which one do you want the the stripe shirt the the the kid in the number Jersey all this and this is what I do to them and this is my age of preference and this is what I like and all this is all this is being recorded at one point David well David R Busby Greg nuska he does he folds up the the paper for the straw cover and folds it in a certain way and then flips it and and does something he said this is a this is a trick I use on on little boy you know I like to show it it's it kind of gets them excited and it's it's a trick that I like to use um so again you know you're G to have children you know it might be oh I'd like to learn this to do this or yeah I'd like to this would be fun to learn for my grandchildren no this is a grooming technique that he's teaching us how to do I mean this is like so twisted if you were not under cover at the time what are you like would you ask these guys something would you just like attack them like how are you controlling your emotions especially as like a father of young boys like is it difficult for you to deal with the the the anger yeah it is um I just have to sublimate it I just I have to recognize that um it's not going to do me any good to toss the table and and throw him down I've just got to do it I I've I've taught at police acmy i' I've I've helped train undercover agents and and the one thing that to be a successful undercover agent most cops most FBI agents the world is black and white black and white you either violated the law or you didn't violate the law well if you're going to be an undercover agent if you're going to be any good at it you better see the gray so you find you latch on to one aspect of that person and that's good and that's what you that's what you focus on and you keep thinking of that so David David Mayer the international flight attendant he's funny so okay I'm gonna latch on to that to that fun to that to the jokes uh to to Todd Calvin the the divorc dentist from Dallas a nice guy I mean if you're not talking about boy lovers he would be the he he would be a guy you'd want to sit down and and have have dinner with or lunch with so you you kind of he he was sort of a lost soul so you latch on to that David R Busby I don't know what you latch on to with him but but still so you just as the undercover agent you got to do this and just realize that that if you do your job right down the line is is where the real satisfaction comes and um taking a slug at him at the at the table there in in front of Johnny Rockets in Coco Beach is isn't going to do it now did you find any common characteristics or through lines I know you kind of mentioned like some of them are successful some aren't some are handsome some aren't is there any through line or any type of uh history that they all kind of shared like oh we were you know abused as kids ourselves or anything of that nature that that they talked about you know that's a great question um yes and no but I didn't probe that because I I I I would have liked to have asked that question I didn't want to I didn't want to probe it um my storyline was that um my my best friend one I when I his child Stevie died when he was 10 years old and so I have always tried to find my Stevie and that's I'm looking for a 10-year-old Stevie a mocha teddy bear Stevie and so my part of my cover story was that pubic Care turns me off so I didn't want one I didn't want these guys coming on to me and I I wanted if if we were talking about kids I wanted it clear that we're talking about children not we're not talking about a 16-year-old who looks like he's 14 so so and I think some of those sort of had that that repressive childhood or had that incident that that set that up um some guys only liked prepubescent children some only liked kids that had reached pubescence or reach puberty uh and if you're prepubescent then once you reach it they discarded you you you know as you as you got too old they they didn't like it but it wasn't like everybody was molested uh it wasn't like they're they're they're missing you know their father or their mother those issues never really came up yeah it it's just I don't know the the whole energy is just like so visceral like even just hearing you kind of talk about is like making me uncomfortable like I know you kind of lived it and and had to like deal with these guys face to face but even just hearing the retelling and how in detail these guys got I don't know it's it's giving me like so you're not going to air this episode no no well we're doing all this for nothing no no no it's just there's just a visceral I don't know it's it's uh it's shocking in in a lot of ways there's it's strange because you talk about you know meeting with gang members or you know Mafia guys that are trying to get people murdered and you know kill people and have probably killed tens of you know if not dozens of people and uh it's just strange that my brain can comprehend that and say like yeah I can understand you know wanting someone dead because of business da d da but this having no type of like Financial element or entrepreneurial element is just a uh a paraphilia you know that just is it's hard to really grasp because it's hard to put yourself into like an empathetic lens yeah and uh which is impressive that you were able to do it for the undercover well you know I I've always kind of said that that God gave me a really screwed up brain and so I could you know I could compartmentalize I could I could be the father I can be the little league coach I can be the the husband I can be the contract killer I can be the I mean you know and and I I kind of there were times particularly like with this case that at some point when the meeting is over when the conversation is over whatever I I sort of just ring out my my brain get all that crap out of there and now go back to being Bob HR and and not not Robert Wallace did these conferences affect how you parented did you U my kids were older at that at that time so um and and I didn't have grandchildren at at that point so no uh just just the idea that I I was thankful that that at least my kids had a normal childhood and that uh that I I was able to protect them from some of this you I mean do you have advice for parents with young children that are you know with your awareness and kind of your experience granted things have changed I guess with the with the internet but your experience in these conferences of how these kind of people think and how they operate what would you recommend for parents this is this is not politically correct I I guess but it's it's what I observed and again I'm not a psychologist I'm not a marriage and family counselor but listening to roughly 175 namble members people that I corresponded with people that I talked with uh personally face Toof face people that we ended up arresting and evicting not one child that was successfully seduced by a NAMBLA member had a strong father figure in the home so these these men went after that child that was seeking a father figure and I think that's true of of boys and girls I I think when that that little girls want Daddy that boys want a father figure and they would go after the single mom uh they would they would groom the the the child that had the alcoholic father or the abusive father um so they would be that loving father figure uh it was that's some of the stories that I heard from NAMBLA members how they would they would groom the single mom in the apartment complex hey I'll I'll watch Junior you know I know you work at night uh let me take him to a ball game let me take Kim camping let me do this so that if something happened if if there was initially something that was inappropriate it was like oh you know that's just that's just Bob he you probably misunderstood because you've groomed the mother you've already youve you've groomed the mother to where she believes you're a good guy and and you're going to to do it um I I was a Marine Marines only think in acronyms but I I use the acronym act when I talk to parents group affirm communicate and Trust And if you affirm your child if if that child believes that he's loved that he is important uh they're not going to be seeking this outside figure to fulfill those needs so tell your kids you love them tell them that that they are important to you uh communicate open communication your kid can talk to you about anything don't don't shut him up let him talk we always played kind of a silly little game I spy at the dinner dinner table and what what did you see oh you know I I saw a cat almost get hit by a car well no you know we really want to talk about politics here you know it's like oh okay well that's you know I'm glad that the cat wasn't hit by the carb but let the parent let the kids know that they can come and talk to you because one of the techniques these guys use is this is our secret you don't you know we could both get in trouble if they found out about this and and I don't want you to get in trouble and I don't want to go to prison but we have a special relationship so let's just keep this our secret so I would strongly urge parents you don't keep secrets you know we don't we don't keep a secret from Daddy we it's a surprise we want to keep a surprise from Daddy so that when the when the start using the term secret then oh wait a minute we don't do Secrets something's wrong here and then trust Ronald Reagan when he talked about the Russian said trust but verify and you as a parent you as an adult you get a gut feeling um you know it it may be the Holy Spirit it may be something else but it's this idea that something's not right here and if this person is making inappropriate comments about children or about your child or something trust your gut you know don't go trust your trust your child's gut there may be a reason why he or she doesn't want to sit on Uncle Harry's lap and it could be Uncle Harry has bad breath but maybe Uncle Harry has done done something that is inappropriate the child can't articulate it but he just knows it's not right and I don't want to I don't want to sit on Uncle Harry's lap so don't make him kiss Uncle Harry don't make him hug and play on the ground and wrestle with them and everything um trust your instincts and trust your child's instincts and if Uncle Harry can't can't handle it then get rid of Uncle Harry so I because I I can tell you from my experience if you don't act as a person these these pedophiles are going to act and they're the ones that are going to fulfill these needs of of your child yeah that's great advice that seems very actionable and I I like the the last one the trust I think so often parents will put like respect over sort of uh trusting their kids you know like I I've seen it happen where it's like you know a kid will come in and you know someone be oh give me a hug and the kid will be like no I don't want to and then the mom will be like come on don't be rude be respectful and most of the time it's obviously innocuous but there are these occasions that you're talking about where it's like no the kid might have a very valid reason why he doesn't want to be around you know an adult and I think that there's a lack of uh trust with the with the kids to say like okay I'll I'll respect your right you know and I'll I'll respect your autonomy to not do something you don't want to do and it's not inherently disrespectful to not want to you know associate with every person in this uh Community or you know this small group or this family that's that's a great way of putting it it's it's not the same thing but we had somebody at one of the churches we attended and he was an usher but he was always giving my kids candy and I watched him and eventually I I asked him not to and and I thought I I wasn't sure if if he was a predator but come to find out he was a white collar criminal and when he got nailed the first thing he told and it was the FBI that arrested him first thing he said is oh I know Bob HR you know call him he'll say that I'm a good guy so it was like something was wrong there and I I didn't know what it was but he was essentially grooming my kids to get to me sort of not the other way around of grooming me to get to my kids but but again there and and you may have you know you may feel the same way when you have your children if if somebody's wait a minute that's inap appropriate for you to to give this to my child or to do this or do that and U yeah if it seems weird it probably it probably is is and even if it isn't just [ __ ] play it safe like it's just so like what is the oh you're going to like hurt someone feelings like yeah if if you're wrong and if you're right you saved your kid from being assaulted or you know like yeah I mean and the down down river effects of that on like a child is just so devastating like you can't raise them in a box you you know you have to allow them to get out to explore and to to learn on their own and make mistakes but you just you can't you can't protect them but you can you can teach them and you can you can try to keep some of the bad guys at Bay but so now as this second conference is wrapping up how do you eventually actually get convictions and get these guys thrown in prison so now we've we go back David has initiated let's go to Costa Rica uh let me do some research during this conversation that I'm having with some of these guys I just said look I know a guy in in La that went down there was a a place uh down in Mexico that he went to uh let me check when I get back let me check and I'll check on those details David you check on your details and David is the David David is the international flight attendant got it so we'll we we'll both then we'll all come together and we'll decide what to do but obviously we don't want to go to Costa Rica I mean we want to be in control the FBI wants to be in control um I come back sit down with the case agent supervisor the LA agents and say okay here's here's what we got let's let's see what we can do and um now I I send out the that I said I just talked to the guy uh this is exciting it's a bbnb bed breakfast and boys and uh it's it's down below in Sonata I gotta tell you Mark I made it up I mean this is just in my mind that I make this whole thing up later on when the whole case hits the national media and Sonata complains the state department that we have B smirched their reputation and the FBI has to issue an apology like I just made it up you know come on I you know I'm sorry I didn't clear this with the state department and uh you know the the administration and anything but so anyway so so I'm I'm putting this down we want to do um there's a this is how much I I just made up the figure of $600 this covers there's a boat that picks you up from Los Angeles and San Diego and then it heads down to blow inata and this travel agency covers that this fee covers the the boat trip the room and board and then the boys but there's a discount if we get 10 people so I'm trying I'm trying to get them to bring more people in so it the two people that I'm talking to most are David the international flight attendant and Todd the dentist the divorce dentist from Dallas so those are the two the three of us are talking by now my nickname is Daddy I'm daddy you know I'm the sugar daddy so that David always called me Daddy that was kind of our little joke and um interestingly enough somehow the word got back to Peter meler that we were talking about travel at the conference and he set out a memo to everybody or an email to everyone that attended the confer conference that there were there was discussion about travel just want to warn you uh don't do anything illegal kind of all this stuff well we all got it and now I'm I'm kind of livid I'm I'm livid in my under in my real capacity and I'm livid in my undercover capacity and David sends back this real funny email and it goes daddy d a d d y y y y y y you know I love it when you go all [ __ ] and and all this and so we decide David decides and this is this is what makes it difficult that David and Todd decide who wants to go and who should be a go what we find out Mark is David is an international flight attendant that works part-time for American Airlines only to maintain his privileges to fly to Thailand land in Mexico he's a PHD psychologist that works at two Chicago area hospitals wow so while we're at these meetings he's analyzing everybody and i' I'm thinking he bought my act you know when I find out he's a psychologist it's like golly did I say something that I shouldn't have did but but he he bought my ACT Todd the divorced dentist from Dallas at one point he says that he has good Gar and he can he can tell in the United States he can tell people that are gay but he's not sure he can do it overseas so he's he's leery of overseas of of of who he talks to and what he says and everything and I'm kind of thinking you know what what what Vibes am I am I giving off but so so Todd bought me David buys me um but what it made it difficult now that David has outed himself as a PHD psychologist well we can't invite this guy because these are the issues this guy's got we can't invite this guy because these are the issues he's got um they liked Sam lindblad that who' spent seven years in prison and was a convicted sex offender but they were afraid that he might bring too much heat so we don't we don't want to invite Sam so we're going over the the names of the of the people that are there um and and and who who we can invite I'm saying to them look if you got other friends that are bl's that aren't even in namble and you trust them let's invite them because first of all I want to get as many as we can but we can with 10 we save money at one point David was was even suggesting we just buy out the boat and just the three of us go down but he wanted Paul zipser he wanted Paul the bodybuilder whose chest he wanted to rub and everything so we we had his contact information so we contacted Paul unbeknownst to them I contacted Sam lindblad part of my deal at the conference with Sam lindblad was that I've written for the magazine uh I knew that he had been in prison because he ad openly admitted it so I wanted I wanted to write a story for the nbla magazine about how we is can protect ourselves in prison so before we left that weekend I had I talked with him about would it be okay if I I contact you and and we can talk about this because I'd like to write an article for the magazine about uh protecting people in prison and he was very open he was a very cordial U very open uh to everything so we're we're kind of going over the names we're trying to figure out there was one guy Steve Irvin was a special ed teacher out of Pittsburgh I didn't have his contact information he had he had checked we had he and I had had a private conversation during one of the breaks and he said that he had traveled down to somewhere in the Bahamas or with a previous nbla member who had died and they'd had a really good time with their travel implying that they'd had sex down there so I said oh well I know David the international flight attendant he's talking about a a a sex and travel why don't you could talk to him so Steve goes and talks with David So now David says to me oh I talked to Steve and Steve Steve would like like to go on a trip and I said I don't have his contact information and David says well I didn't get it so I contacted Peter meler and said hey um Steve Irvin said that he would be willing to work with me on the Privacy pamphlet which I've been assigned the year before which I never did get done and so Peter ends up giving me the contact information for Steve Irvin wow and uh I get a hold of him I think I just me he was a special ed teacher so so now we got him we get a Paul we get a hold of Paul zipser we we got Paul um was there any chance of getting Peter the president no oh I wouldn't I wouldn't I would not have even I I I would have been afraid to even touch him especially after that letter came out he would have shut down the whole thing he wouldn't have gotten anybody yeah yeah I and that was that was one of our fears from an investigative standpoint that if I went outside the approvals of Todd and and U David that that might get back to them because Sam lindblad was the guy I was interested in so I didn't tell Todd and David but I got a hold of Sam and I just said hey I I've I've got to fly over to Albuquerque could I would it be okay if we met and uh talk about the the N article he said of course so I flew in this time I got my Mustang um at the rental agency met him I did my research found one of the top restaurants in Albuquerque decided uh you know you go big or you go home your tax dollars are paying for this meal so pick one of the five-star restaurant in Albuquerque we go in there it's one of the best undercover meals I've ever had I I would give it five stars and uh Sam goes into details he's he is paranoid he knows that they're going through his trash now he explains how he he doesn't even put his trash out in the container because they had done a trash cover on him when they taken his trash in that trash cover they had found notes that he had written to I had a little 12in sign side Winder which we believe meant a 12-year-old boy and uh he was tutoring people in the apartment tutoring boys in the apartment complex had a had a sign up you know I will tutor uh boys for free uh had talked about I can't say that we ever knew anything happened but in Colorado where he used to live he had a tunnel under his home uh so I mean this guy looks like he's he's the real deal he's who we want to go after he had a tunnel under his home yeah I don't know that that he had that you know what was going on in the tunnel but but but we knew about it and what was his occupation what did he do for work he had been a special ed teacher but but then lost you know once he went to prison and but had enough money to own a home and build a tunnel yeah he'd been married I mean uh he wasn't married when I met him I I I don't know when he got divorced but you know he was he was single when I met him and we're sitting there and we start to talk and he says um I'm just so afraid that I'm being watched and I said Sam I said that's why I picked this restaurant I said no cop could afford to eat here and he laughed he said I really appreciate that well two tables over were two FBI agents that were monitoring the meeting or three tables over you know they were just there to monitor the meeting just to kind of write up the report that yeah Bob did meet with Sam and you know we observed this and all this so I went in I'm wearing a body recorder and I take a I take a I I I bring a a writing tablet and a small recorder and I said I want to interview you I I hope it's okay it's hard for me to take notes because of my condition um so is it okay if I record our our meeting and you know I'll take rough notes he saids of course yes of course so I would turn the recorder on and we just talk essentially about some innocuous things things and then at at one point mark I would shut the recorder off so he could see the record being shut off the the stop button it's not going around anything like that so how many boys have you really molested and groomed and everything so he eventually admitted to molesting 70 boys and groom 7 grooming 200 what the so then it was like okay well let's let's go back on the record you know so I'm and of course I'm recording this on my body recorder wow that he's saying all this so now we go back on the record and asking more of the innocuous questions um at at one point we're just about done with the meeting and and I love this moment I said what is the one thing that you want the membership to know and he balls his fist and he looks at me and he kind of closes his eyes and grimaces and he said be careful there are so many sting operations out there I didn't know it at the time just be careful and it was like yes you're absolutely right there are so many sting operations over there so as as we get done with the the interview for the for for the magazine article I said I'm reluctant to bring this up and he says bring up anything I I I don't care bring up anything I said well I don't want this to get out but several of us are putting up a trip to to go down to enada and we'd like you to go and would you be willing to go down and explain the details he said oh that would be wonderful I would love I would love to go and would it be okay if I bring a friend and I said of course well I would like to invite dick dick stutzman the guy who said says I don't know that I'm a sociopath mhm so Sam is on board but now we have the issue David and Todd had said don't invite Sam because Sam is a convicted sex offender but Sam Sam was on the steering committee he was voted on to the steering committee of nbla which even David the flight attendant this the PHD psychiatrist psychologist makes a big deal out of that even bothered him that Sam is on the board because he think that would bring too much attention to nbla so I've got to kind to keep I have to keep Sam from somehow getting this word to David and Todd um as we're getting closer to the date of when this is this whole thing is G GNA go off um and we're trying to figure out who we've got so now Steve Irvin's agreed to go we've got a hold of Paul ziper he's needs to go we've got Todd and David obviously they're going going then I break the news I said well I have to tell you that I did meet with Sam and he wants to go but I think it's safe I really do I I think you guys have to trust me and there was some reluctance but they said okay you know well I and even David said I like Sam I'm just afraid of of of him bringing heat if he's being followed and everything now I'm working these two other undercover cases so I I'm working three undercover cases and I really only had one undercover cell phone so when my when my cell phone rang I didn't know whether I was a macho International arms dealer or I loved eight-year-old prepubescent boys and I was dealing with the the Vietnamese gang in San Diego I'd met with a guy we were GNA do a drug by but it was going to be a couple hours before the the meth was going to show up so I stepped away and I'm I'm in my car in a parking lot and my phone rings and I think it's it's it's probably one of the Smoking Dragon people and I answered a phone and it's dick stutzman and he's he's calling me and he says look I um I need to talk Sam called me about going on this trip and I'd like to talk to you in detail about it well I'd already had my recorder running I my tape was prepared for the Vietnam the Vietnam Vietnamese gang case so I said look I am just ready getting getting ready to go into a bank to close on a on a loan can I call you back uh later this evening said yes of course so we finish up doing the drug deal with the the Vietnamese I go back to the EP off says get a new tape and um I'm sitting that we we had a room that was quiet that was soundproof so you couldn't any noises outside so I called Dick stutsman Mark we're in the I make the call he says look Sam called me I'm worried I said about what he said well my brother is a social worker I've explained to him about this trip we're going on and he says he thinks it's a sting operation and I said okay so he literally laid out our operations order he goes if I were the FBI he said are you aware that Bush signed legislation that if you travel with intent to have sex with a minor that's a violation even if you don't have the sex that's a new federal law he lays out the statute he says so if I'm the FBI I would I would essentially just set up a phony travel agency and have a send in money to reserve uh a spot and then uh as soon as everybody shows up because we're traveling in interstate commerce then you just arrest everybody that's what I would do and I'm sitting there and I know I'm getting this smile on my face I I and I said dick I understand complete and he says you know what I don't even think I know you and it was like I was kind of hurt I dick I sat across from you at dinner at the the Brazilian restaurant where my stomach was upset and I was farting all night um you don't remember me and I said well I was at the conference oh you were now keep in mind Mark there's only 17 of us at the conference so it's like okay but you didn't remember me from the conference so um I said well I don't know what to tell you I said i' I've been in the organization for years which really wasn't true I've written for their magazine I said the reason I was I was with Sam was to write this article for the magazine um all I can tell you is my friend went down last year and nobody got arrested and he had a great time and if you don't want to go that's fine I mean I I wouldn't go but when we come back and tell you that we had a great time and we're going to go again you'll probably be Be Wondering well did they really have a great time or were they arrested and now they're working for the authorities you know it's a sting operation and he goes well now that I know that that that you're that you are part of the organization and that you're trusted and and that you've convinced me I'll go so he sends in his money and uh wow I cannot believe he described the entire laid the whole thing out like you were listening to it like you should be an agent I mean you're pretty good at setting up stins yeah could you just type this up for it save me save me paperwork on the the next time around on the renewal so now you have what was it like so we ended up getting seven guys that agreed to go on the trip and we had set it up so that you could we were trying to make this as convenient and as cheap as possible I mean we we couldn't make it free I mean that would that would could cause some issues I I'm independently wealthy I couldn't just say hey I'll pay everybody's airfare now David did use points to get free flights for uh Paul so Paul Todd and David flew into San Diego the other four guys flew into Los Angeles so they were going to get on the boat in Los Angeles and then come down to San Diego and then we would the seven of the eight of us then would go down to to enata for the bbnb the problem that we had with this case was you have to meet the elements of the offense so you have to travel in Interstate or foreign Commerce with the intent to have sex the FBI had had an issue with the case out of U it was it was out of the ninth Circuit Court of Appeals the federal district in the west coast of California it was a Disney executive out of I believe Seattle that had met a girl online who happened to be an undercover FBI agent posing as you know a teenage girl they were having chats back and forth and he flew down from Seattle to have sex with the girl with the 13-year-old girl but he was coming to business meetings with Disney so in his conversations he had made the point that I'm coming down for business meetings you know while I'm down there let's meet up and let's have sex let's I mean I'm kind of paraphrasing all this well his defense was that his primary purpose of travel was not to have sex his primary purpose of travel was the business meeting so therefore he didn't violate the the statute because that wasn't the purpose of his travel I I I can't remember how that was ruled but at that point that was an element so we had to in my conversations with everybody I had to make it clear that you're coming your primary purpose to travel we didn't want David who was in Chicago saying oh it's snowing it's cold I'm just coming I don't care whether we have sex I'm just coming down there to get to warm weather so I set up in all the phone conversations that they're primary purpose was to go to the bbnb now I have to set up what are the sex acts that they that they want I make we have to make it clear that that they want sex so my deal was that there are boys down there but not every boy will do everything so I need to know one what is your age of preference which is a common question that that's a very it's almost like who's your faor football team or I know you're a soccer fan who's your Bigg your favorite soccer team that kind of deal so what is your age of preference and what sex acts do you want done do you want anal or oral or or what do you want done so it was very so we had it very clear every one of the guys wanted between a 10 and 12 year old boy and I think almost everybody wanted anal sex and so we had had so we get all this cleared on the tape now we have a a somewhat of a jurisdictional issue the California us attorney's office read the statute to mean they didn't really violate the law until they got on the boat the US attorney's office in San Diego said once they've traveled once they land in San Diego they violated the law so we we have we have this the issue comes up we can't really arrest the guys in San Diego before we arrest the guys in LA but La is saying they've got to get on the boat so everyone's flying in on Thursday they're going to get on the boat Friday morning and that's when we will affect the arrest when everybody's getting ready to get on the boat in a conspiracy typically most jurisdictions if you you can back out of the conspiracy so I can negotiate to have my wife killed I can talk about it I I can agree to pay you but then at the at the last moment say wait a minute no I don't want her killed uh I'm not going to pay you I I don't want to killed and I backed out of the conspiracy so now I haven't violated the conspiracy laws because I backed out of the conspiracy it doesn't rain much in California it poured that whole week we had what they call El ninos and it's just pouring I mean you got to be crazy to get on a boat in this weather so everybody shows up in LA and San Diego on Thursday night it's pouring all night I'm worried that they're going to back out and just say look um let let's just go let's go next month or let's wait till next year but I'm not getting on the boat at one point I offered to the three guys in that we had in San Diego I just offered to them uh look let's just I'll drive I'll drive us across the border let's just get in a car and we'll drive across the border because we our us attorney had already said they violated the law no no no we we'll still take the boat it's going to be okay so we we set it up again it takes a boat a couple hours to get from LA it's it's Saturday it's um Friday morning we're all we we get up we're staying in the hotel we in the hotel room that night uh I had had some medical issues I had actually been in intensive care two days the weekend before this came down I'd been in intensive care I had gotten out of the hospital on Monday on Thursday the NAMBLA guys are coming in I developed fitis in my vein from where they'd had the the port in my vein so I am sitting in the motel room with hot packs on and I look like death wared over and I I didn't have to act so these guys were so generous and so kind so we've got videotape and I'm not saying a word and they're just going over David is going over all the stuff that happened in Thailand and and mexic Todd is talking about an incident he had in uh in the Bahamas Paul is talking about a boy that he had seduced using his Corvette that was kind of his enticement to get boys talking about uh a situation where he was a a big brother and his roommate saw him do something inappropriate and called Big Brothers so they took the so they're they're laying out essentially their their criminal history all on your recording and all on the recording and I'm just sitting there and and again I mentioned that David humorus and Todd who's the dentist he's saying I don't understand I'm not sure a 10 or 11 yearold can essentially take anal sex you know and uh and then they joke about well they'll be in continent but just give them dep pens you know that uh the rest of their life I mean it was just it was so cold it was so it it was it was so dark it was so depraved it was so e evil the way they were joking about thinking they probably could damage these kids by doing anal sex and it was just was just a big just a big joke to them um so again I I was sick but I it it worked out perfect um because we had a a very quiet recording we didn't have traffic it wasn't at a a dinner table and a a noisy restaurant or something we set up the the next morning we get up uh my case agent calls me when we're having breakfast together my case agent calls me said okay they just arrested everybody in La I said hey that was the the boat captain they're leaving La now they're probably going to be down here in 3 hours so like now we got to drag this thing out for 3 hours let's hope nobody backs out eventually I kind of look at my watch and say okay let's get let's get ready let's go over to the harbor and we were just we were just a short distance so we get in my undercover car we're driving over it's raining we get out of the car we got their bags we're we're walking toward the dock where the boat is supposed to land there is no boat but where the boat is supposed to land and all of a sudden I hear the shotgun rack and freeze FBI you're under arrest and I I let out this unmanly scream and oh I can't what is the FBI you know all this kind of stuff and one of my buddies was on the SWAT team I I throw my crutch up in the air and act like I'm figting and he catches me right before I land in a puddle so they cuff me they cuff everybody and uh um take everybody away but uh and then they so again it's one of those deals I was arrested with them so when they when they get in you know they're all kind of giving it up in the sense that you know Bob's telling this story Bob undercover robbert Wallace is telling this story and that's you're not telling us the same story you know so some of them are coming clean during the the interrogation we get into court there isn't much they can do but there there's a motion filed for gross governmental misconduct because we we were essentially offering sex um I didn't I never even read the motion so I'm not sure what it was but Todd the the divorce dentist from Dallas had told his lawyer that I was too good that I had to be a closeted boy lover because nobody could could convince um essentially professional boy lovers that they were one of them so in in the Motions hearing that David's lawyer brought David Meyers mayor's lawyer brought he raised the fact that I had played on his uh client's psychological issues and I I kind of laughed and I said I never even took the course in college your client's a PHD psychologist I'm playing on his issues but what because I knew that Todd had told his lawyer I was a I was too good when the prosecution they you know what is your name Robert he what do you do FBI agent what is your specialty in the FBI and I said uh I've specialized in undercover I listed 20 undercover operations that I had done because I wanted it on the record that no this isn't my first undercover case no maybe I am a closeted because that's why I was able to be successful and sort of went down what what you and I have talked about in these podcasts contract International arms dealer all this kind of stuff and uh so those guys ended up after they lost that motion they pled out and then we go Sam lindblad is the only one that actually went to trial and he he said not guilty he he pled not guilty and then was convicted and did got 30 years wow so everyone got convicted yeah and do you know oh and I I kind of forgot Jeff D'Or my my uh ordained minister kairopractor before we even went on the trip he called me right before Christmas and the trip happened in no in February so he called me right before Christmas to have lunch and so I met with him for lunch and he he hands me a a thumb drive and he said U essentially Merry Christmas I I think you might find this interesting uh I know you you uh you lost your computer crashed and you lost your uh pornography collection so we went back and checked there were 125 images of uh men having sex with boys and eight videos of men having sex with boys on this uh on on what he'd given me so we ended up convicting seven members of nbl's inner circle on um travel with intent to have sex and then we got Jeff for the distribution of child pornography which that carried a minimum mandatory five years so he got five years for that he got five years um everyone else you know roughly how long well and that was that was disappointing Sam Lim got 30 which that's good which I was good uh David R Busby Greg nusa who was the who' learned about it at the Boy Scout meeting um he ended up I think he got 14 years and all the rest got between two and three years and again it was frustrating it was frustrating the the lawyer or the the the judge in La a federal judge a female and you're bringing all this crap out you know in the sentencing reports all this is brought out about they want to have anal sex and everything she says on the record well this is kind of sex light what because there were no children actually harmed in this case so a sex light so she gave him between 24 and 36 months and it was just you got to be kidding me but it was but they want like they went there for the explicit purpose they exactly yeah they went there for the explicit purp some of them said on record that they had done things in the past exactly yeah and that didn't fact they all everyone had traveled in the past to do something on the record you were able to record all that record all and that didn't factor into the sentencing at all like oh they claimed to have done things not for her I mean that seems extremely lenient absolutely yeah is that a jurisdiction thing is that because it was Los Angeles I I I think so I I don't want to get into politics but I I learned I was always kind of a one-issue man and it was like the Judiciary and uh we used to kind of joke the ninth circuit is called the the ninth circus I mean because they've been overturned by the Supreme Court more than any other jurisdiction and uh oh really yeah and and so that it's it's pretty liberal but we used to kind of joke that well when you got to sign the case which judge you're going to get and then you can decide whether to work the case or not because you know it's it's not worth to put in hard years risk your life uh work all these extra hours if the federal judge is going to end up giving probation or or something like that which is why I became a fan of the minimum mandatory laws because um the judges it took away a lot of their discretion right that you you've got to you've got to give them this amount of time if this had been tried in Florida or Oklahoma or something like that yeah Florida Florida is their I guess you could say great on sex offenders I mean they on sex TR at least they were when I was on the job conviction yeah sensing and convictions and um and what happened to the rest of nbla and to Peter you know the they had they had filed motions that I had VI violated their First Amendment right of Association uh and that was that was all brought up in the David mayor the the psychologist in his motions hearing how uh I had violated the first amend that was part of the gross governmental misconduct that uh by infiltrating I'd violated the First Amendment the organization as I understand it it's still an online presence they say they don't meet anymore um there's no real need for an organization or for to meet because you got chat rooms now and uh you you've got other opportunities to meet people a lot of this what you found it was just an opportunity for like-minded men to sit around and talk about it well now you can go into a chat room and you never have to meet face to face and you can talk about it or if you want to meet face to face we just set up an appointment we don't have to have a meeting um with that that the the FBI could possibly monitor so if you go on I I think if you go on the website um it does say that they um they do have a membership but I I haven't seen too many letters to the editor on the age of consent laws so the former president did he ever get convicted like not in our case we nothing ever happened to him no I don't oh wow not my knowledge I he may still be alive he lives in the Bronx you have him on the show I'm okay yeah good I mean that's good that's I'm almost you know we've talked about this this is not a pleasant conversation this is not a pleasant podcast I I'm hoping that by talking about this there isn't the David R Busby Greg nusa that's out there listening going oh wow there's a there's an organization that supports all this well let me join TR I'm I'm hoping that more of your listeners are thinking boy this is wrong this is evil this is disgusting and it's then these people are really out there and they're infiltrating and intentionally trying to get close to kids I mean that to me is like the the most Insidious part is that they're trying to find proximity and they're praying on vulnerable families that might not be you know fully together in order to get what they want absolutely and uh yeah I wonder if there's more uh more protections that people can take specifically online I mean it's like so rampant online uh as in a way to to protect kids I'm I'm curious if if you've uh read anything or even in in your work as things have kind of modernized do you have any advice that's not really my expertise but I I do know there are organizations out there I think if if you Google it you know there there are ways to identify websites uh or or at least there are ways to protect keep websites off your children's phone you know how that type of thing obviously from a kid standpoint that's that's what we worry about one of is kids getting access to these type of of pornographic websites and one of the biggest problems that the FBI is seeing now is sextortion sex Distortion where you kind of have two different groups you've got the the Predators that live here in the United States that go online posing as a little kid or a teenager whatever and go into these chat rooms and or whatever they're called now and making connections and then sending let me send you a picture of me naked um and of course it's not him because it's a 50-year-old guy in a basement and sending the picture and then saying okay now you send me your pictures and that person succumbs and sends a picture of of himself or herself well now the Predator has that picture and it's if you don't send me more pictures I'm going to I'm going to expose you I know which school you go go to cuz you've told me all about you you've told me your friends I've actually hacked into your computer I know your your contacts I know your Facebook page your Instagram page I'm going to post this if you don't send me more picture I'm going to post it the others are it it's happening here in the United States but essentially guys from overseas that are doing the same thing and if you don't send me 500 bucks or a thousand bucks I'm going to post your pictures um and so these kids are doing it it's it's all over the country that good kids are getting caught up in this and end up committing suicide or something because it's like oh my gosh they're gonna I'm GNA be exposed I I can't afford the money uh this is going to ruin me I'm not going to be able to get into college or I'm gonna lose my job I'm so so they've committed suicide from the FBI's perspective what is the best way to handle that if you are entrapped in that type of extortion scheme come out you know tell it tell your parents tell the police contact the FBI and and the FBI will working those cases and I know recent how recently but within months they've just um they've got an extradition on some guys out of Uganda that were that were setting this up U really yeah oh wow so there is some legal recourse you can actually go get them yeah wow I mean that's good but it's but it's just it's one of these things things that's going on I mean the internet is great uh it it has it's done a lot to make Society better but it's done a lot to make Society worse and it's it's a tool that can be used for good or evil just like everything else yeah are you proud of the work that you've done with the NBL case are you happy with the outcome is there a do you think the FBI should continue to do these types of cases are they continued to do them like how do you feel everything kind of wrapped up yeah no I'm I'm EX ex remely proud of of the work we were able to do with nbla um the fact that that essentially that organization is just an online presence and and we we we put a dent in it and and we took some Predators off the street for a little while at least some of them are still in but they're on the registry for Life they're on the registry for life um we ruined their lives you well they ruin their lives they they ruin their lives yeah and and and we Expos them and we protected kids I think one of the one of the toughest emails I got early on when when my book first came out was an email from somebody and he said I read your book thank you so much I wish there was someone like you out there protecting me when I was getting molested and so it's kind of like well if we've if we protected one or two boy I mean Sam lindblad 30 years he groomed 200 and admitted to molesting 70 well he's not doing that now and uh let's let's hope that if there's any molestation taking place in the prison system it's him that's that's getting it well so Bob I appreciate the time this is uh I've done a lot of podcasts and I've talken to a lot of people that have done and seen and experienced crazy things and this is probably the most disturbing but uh by the end of it I'm I'm extremely grateful for your work and what you've done and I'm I'm optimistic that there's more people like you both in uh sort of private security as well as the you know Bureau and government agencies that are going after people like this and and really trying to take down these people with you know malignant intentions for kids across you know the country and across the world I mean sex trafficking is it seems like it's only going up I've read you know some vague numbers that globally it's huge and sex tourism is huge and it's happening in America more and more and it uh I don't know I'm I'm grateful that there's people like you that are out there really taking these guys out and put them putting them in prison so thank you so much thanks Mark I I appreciate you having me because i' I've done some other podcasts quite frankly not as good as yours I mean I I enjoyed this is the first time I've done an in studio usually it's a zoom call but when I was first contacted by haime and you said you want to do nbla it's like yeah I'm most people don't want to even talk about it I want to steer clear of it so I I thank you and I I admire you for being willing to take this on now let's just make sure you air it but yeah I mean it it's it's not a pleasant it's not a pleasant topic but it's out there so so wake up yeah well thank you so much Bob let's do this again soon next time you're back in New York all right okay do thank you appreciate you