welcome to making the cut podcast with Chris Hill and sea witer where we help you succeed in life and business by sharing principles and strategies that guide some of the most successful people in the [Music] world welcome to episode 11 of the making the cut podcast I'm Chris with my co-host Sean witer today we're joined by marketing and branding expert Bernette jwa so Sean before we get into the conversation you know the last couple weeks I've let you tell this joke and I think our audience probably thinks you're the only one that's funny yeah pretty much that's that's kind of where we're at right now Chris so I got I got one for you today back in episode seven with Steve Syler you asked how many narcissists does it take to change life bulb well today we're talking about marketing and branding and storytelling how many marketers does it take to screw in life bu I don't even have anything I I don't even have a funny comeback for it none they've automated and there you go folks folks I'll be here all episode yeah well what why did the uh why did the two marketers not get married uh let's see here they weren't on the same page of some sort page landing page they weren't on the same landing page there we go you got it well I I am so excited to talk to bernardet I've listened to two of her books I've gotten on Audible about five times that is marketing and making your ideas matter I am such a fan of her work such a fan of her Blog the story of telling and I even have a hard copy of her book which was at the difference she has five books in total and she has another one that's upcoming so I'm a huge fan she has this way of simplifying something complex as a brand strategy or marketing strategy she simpli it down and I'm very excited to kind of hear her thoughts how about you absolutely Sean you know when when I first realized all the the work that she's done with Seth Goden you know I couldn't be more excited since then so let's tell you a little bit about bernardette she's a business author and Brand Story strategist she works with entrepreneurs who are passionate and with companies and Visionary Business Leaders helping them to bake meeting into their brand so they can be more than a replaceable commodity she also helps them stand out in today's noisy crowded Marketplace by honing their position and showing them how to communicate their difference through their Brand Story she's also the author of number one Amazon bestseller make your idea matter and and Sean that's one of the ones you've read right that's the one absolutely about five times what you say we Jump Right In absolutely let's do it bernardette thank you for joining us today it's my privilege all right so we're gonna dive right into it can you tell us how you got started in this line of work um you know I it's interesting that you're both from from a culinary background there are a few jobs that I've done in my lifetime um one of them was in catering I was actually a manager in a Hospitality for a very very long time as I in well as I started my career it was one of the first jobs I had worked my way up into management positions and there's something incredible that happens in Hospitality when you have the privilege of open the door at 7:00 a.m. in the morning and seeing people at the start of their day and understanding you know the reasons they come into a cafe first thing in the morning and why they're there it's generally a lot more than food and beverage so that was one of the F the first things that I did I've also um done things like uh launched my own small startup in the UK I've uh I was a nurse for a certain point of time so I've had had quite a squiggly career but how I got into um writing about branding marketing and storytelling was really um I think goes back to my Fascination when I was 10 years old with why was it that these collectible stars on the back of my brother's Action Man toys on the back of the packaging suddenly became more valuable than the toy themselves so the toy company put out the this promotional um sort of marketing gimmick in that you buy this toy and you get these stars on the back of the box you collect those stars and then they you send them off in an envelope and they send you back this you know bonus thing it could be an outfit or it could be a special toy soldier and what my brother and I noticed when we went into into the toy store was that the Stars had been ripped off all the packaging so it was really interesting to me sort of a light bulb moment thinking about huh you know people care more about the packaging at this point than they did about the soldiers so um I think lots of things have influenced my decision to do this work in general that I I just love um I love storytelling I love people and I've always been fascinated by marketing speaking of marketing can you share with us your personal definition of marketing um well that's an interesting thing isn't it because people tend to think that marketing is telling people the story of the thing that you've made and my definition of understanding what it is to tell a brand story is first understanding why you exist so that's the first step in any uh marketing journey is to understand why exist where you're headed what you believe in and what your plan is to deliver value for the people you hope to serve so it's not the traditional definition of marketing which is how do we get more people to buy our stuff what do we tell them how do we create more awareness of of what we're building creating um my belief is that we need to start with a customer story and not start with our story how does branding fit into that in terms of how do you define that now that you've talked about marketing yeah well you've probably seen my very very short definition of uh what it is to be a brand so a brand is when you're not a brand you're a commodity so a product without meaning is a commodity and a product with meaning is a brand so a brand is something that's meaningful um to people in the context of their lives so Starbucks is a brand uh regular coffee is not so much of a brand um so it's a brand is creating value all the time through by creating meaning for people in their lives so is storytelling the action item that becomes the hub for Branding and marketing yeah it's it's more than telling I it's it's it's a pretty hard thing to explain isn't it that you you know I just tell you my story and suddenly you get it and all the meaning is created around it it's more a case of being story driven so going back to those item those that list I mentioned before which is you know understanding why we exist you know what we're here to do for the people that we serve you know we go back to the Starbucks example they've got a very clear purpose uh about you know changing the world and changing uh every neighborhood uh one cup of coffee at a time um so I think it's that having that deeper purpose is where you start having this and creating this meaningful difference in people's lives instead of thinking about how can we sell more stuff other brands that do it well Patagonia um Tesla you know they've got super um higher purpose around sustainability so it's not just about making cars for the sake of making more cars right for aspiring entrepreneurs and and I can tell you for me when was putting together entrepreneurial chef and then entrepreneurial Chef magazine uh I think i' said this in the very beginning before we jumped on is that I listened to your books uh about five times each and went through your downloadable 20 questions and filled that out and everything and so for those people that are just starting out and and trying to create a really solid Brand Story what are some of the very first steps some of the key steps that they should be taking or thinking about as their as they're putting that together besides getting all of your books and listening to them five times oh look we're not here to sell books as a bunch of free stuff on my website they can subscribe to my blog and that's all free but um you know guys that the thing that's that I think we forget is that questions are really important we tend to fall in love with our own idea and think I've got this amazing idea it's going to be fabulous and people are going to love it and I think taking a moment to step back and ask the questions about the people who are going to um buy this thing or want this thing so we tend to get obsessed about our own idea and fall in love with it and become obsessed about that thing that we're going to sell instead of obsessing about the customer so um I do have this uh template that people could grab on the meaningful book uh.com website which is the story strategy blueprint and that really helps you to understand where to start in the process of thinking about you know the life of your customers so if we think about your entrepreneurial Chef uh magazine you know tell me what you were thinking about when you thought about the person that was going to serve yeah for me it was the aspiring food entrepreneur that struggled with launching their idea whether it's going to be maybe their personal brand whether it's going to be their business so what I noticed when I was at a culinary school is a lot of students would enter and they want to be they want to be the next Gordon Ramsey they want to have a restaurant but I watched them year after year since I was there for almost 10 years just fall short of being able to launch it so that's who I had in mind was that that aspiring food entrepreneur that's coming out they're green they just they really want to go after their hopes and dreams but they just don't know where to start that's that's kind of that's who my focus was so you started in the right place you didn't just say you know what would be really cool would be to create a magazine for chefs um you started with it with a clear idea of who you were creating for and what their problem was and then you know your solution came from that the you know the tangible benefits you needed to deliver the emotional benefits you needed to deliver to them and how what you were going to do then was going to change their perception of what was possible for them and that's the formula for everything it sound it's sounds simple and and it is really if if we if we just take the time to sit down and and and answer the questions of ourselves uh instead of jumping right into saying you know I'm going to create this cool new food product or um I've seen this a lot recently uh I I'm going to develop some new protein bowls or you know a new protein shake or so who's going who's going to care about that Who Who Are You solving a problem for where are they why will they buy your thing and not the other thing and what you're doing is quite nich so you know there aren't a ton of uh podcasts and magazines for food entrepreneurs uh you know who who want to be the next Gordon Ramsey but it's still possible to do this with a cafe or with with any other brand you hope to create I can tell you personally you know for me as I started to build my own personal brand and I had a restaurant at the time too so that obviously was able to to help the restaurant too but you I was so focused on starting out you not being very patient and and just trying to get more eyeballs and do you know I have my agenda you know how can I get more people to to care about what I'm doing and then my slowly I had kind of an epiphany and and started creating more content that I knew would resonate with my ideal audience and since then it's been almost an exponential growth versus so it's out it's been again like you started out saying it's been about them and not as much for me yeah so what happened it sounds like what happened when you started your journey was pretty typical you are of course you're excited about your idea you want to share it with people and you want people to share it but what happens is you just become so obsessed with that that you forget about the people that you you're speaking to and the thing is we create value for people they can't help but uh appreciate it become loyal and then tell other people about it so um it's actually easier to uh draw people to us than than try and push our messages out there if I I think about Jamie Oliver you know when he started out and okay timing was right and you know lots of things going for him he was just fresh and exciting um but you know it was this thing that people were craving this Simplicity and honesty in in food and and you know that's that's what his brand has you know he's very story driven I would say Jamie Oliver and that he he knows why his brand exists he know he's got a Clear Vision about what he's headed for and what his values and beliefs are they drive everything that he does and then you know obviously he has a big team around him that help him to create the plan and how he's going to deliver on that Vision but it's be only because he's got a purpose vision and values that he's able to create this plan and succeed by doing so now bernardette in relation to storytelling specifically can you share for the audience why this is just absolutely so important so pivotal for them well there's a lot of noise out there in the world and never more so and part of the storytelling journey is to really communicate hold your hand up and and create the signal to people who value what you value and care about what you care about if you are you know an organic farmer or you have got an amazing product that you you know you that you want people to care about you need to get them to believe what you believe and you need them and you need to target the people who believe what you believe so if you don't have a coherent story going back to the Jamie Oliver example then you're not going you're going to be invisible to these people because they've got so many other choices uh to make and we see that all the time every week you go into the uh organic store or the the food market and there's another brand of coconut water in there so how do you stand out amongst amongst that noise if you're not first and if you're not cheaper if you're not uh the commodity brand and having to Discount all the time so um that's why storytelling is super important and then as it relates to Brands and you're creating valuable uh valuable customers how does that tie into your brand fatigue and and staying fresh and and continually maybe evolving as as the market evolves yeah that's that's that's a really interesting one um you know I think you have to you have to stay focused if you look at um it's very easy if you're not story driven to be driven by what your competitors are doing and to reacting and uh responding in to the trends and the marketplace and and if you do that you're going to you know you're you're in danger of burning your brand so again going back to does does this align with the purpose that you know the reason I've said this this uh company has to exist or this cafe or this restaurant has to exist and then you you know it's like it's like riding like going on a on a on a bike ride like a road race like the tour to France and you start out on this journey and you know what your destination is and so you know competition comes and there are bumps in the road but you might adjust your position in the saddle and yet you still have your eyes very focused on where you're headed so I think part of it is is being aware of your competition but not letting that competition drive your agenda in going forward it's having your own Vision Values and having a Sol plan to execute on that that's such a good such a good point so many people get uh so concerned that whether it's going to be their market share is going to go away that they're just so focused on the wrong direction so such a good point now you work with a lot of great brands have you seen companies and we don't have to say it by name but just maybe what they did have you seen companies that have just completely got it wrong in terms of marketing these days I thought you were going to say companies who got it right I was thinking oh I should have I should have made a list of the the great because I live in Melbourne which is one of the um you know it's a coffee capital of the world so I was thinking oh you know I should have made a list of all the great brands that are doing it really well here um let me give you an example in the um in the catering restaurer world and I I'm not going to give names and I'm not working with this brand but the thing the people say in Melbourne is if a cafe or restaurant survives in this town for more than a year they're doing really well because there's such a lot of competition every other week There's a new cafe or restaurant opening um so there's a new bakery opened lately in the area and it's got an international reputation and somehow every time I walk past there it's empty and I just think they somehow they've got their story wrong they haven't they talk about authenticity from their country and yet you know I can't smell the bread you know I can't smell the baguettes when I walk by um the place is you know the space is very big and cold uh so it doesn't feel like a French bakery to me it doesn't it doesn't evoke it doesn't evoke feelings of France when when I walk past there and I I don't know if it's going to if it's going to stick on the other hand um there's a brilliant brand I I would urge people to Google which is lon and they make amazing cant in fact I think the New York Times featured them a few months ago as you know are these the best cant in the world so this the the girl who started this brand um with her brother they started a hole in the wall in one of uh the suburbs where they're not now they they've expanded but they had a hole in the wall making cant and selling them till they ran out and people would come and line up and they and they now still do from 4:00 in the morning to get these cants because they knew they were going to sell out um so they have built their brand on a couple of things one is scarcity because you know they they touch everything that they do so therefore there's not an infinite number they've also just got a great product they've put so much time and effort into developing the product and um their story is around you know we take time and and it's carefully done and it's artisan and it's one off and best ingredients and look them up Lon so yeah I'm I'm looking them up right now actually yeah yeah uh videos of what they're doing they've now got an amazing space uh not very far from where I live and I can guarantee you uh actually when they first started they only opened three days a week so there's you know they they just got the whole formula right they they didn't overdo it they didn't try to be all things to all people it's it's an expensive cost on but people will line up to get that thing right well and I think we've seen this I've definitely seen it in the restaurant industry you know where you have a successful you know brick and mortar location and then you're oh wow this is doing really well let's open up you two more and then let's expand to New Markets and let's try and expand you na nationally and then you maybe internationally if you're really successful yeah in that process I feel like a lot of oftentimes a lot of the charm gets lost but then you there's obviously certain brands that are able to do that really well in terms of scaling is it is it just the the company culture that Sims from the top or you what's what's at play there in terms of keeping that that brand identity as you try to expand and grow and and scale I you've just hit the nail on the head with this with this um brand that I feel just hasn't got it right for this Marketplace I I've not visited them in their home country and I know they they have expanded internationally and I'm presuming successfully in other countries but here it just doesn't seem to be flying and I think it goes back to the point of you know are asking yourself the question are we just so in love with their idea that we just want to have you know I would love to have a place in London or I would love to own a you know own and operate a place in Paris I mean even Gordon Ramsey got it wrong right he had to close stuff so it it goes back to the point of you know why do we exist again going back to our purpose where are we headed what are our values and beliefs and then going to look at the people in that market in the market where you're headed and say you know is this something they really would care about and really would want uh you know where's our where do where does our story fit into their story not just we've got a great story um to tail with our products and services and we're just going to jump on and and do that it's it's kind of like a uh I was reading your blog I go in there often but uh there was one it was um I think it was a couple of days ago or maybe a couple weeks ago but little boy standing there shouting and I think the title was shouting to be heard it was uh all about yeah all about you can just shout and see if people are going to listen to you or you can you can listen to understand the people and then go down that route and I love I love kind of how you position that yeah well thank you it's it's pretty it sounds pretty simple doesn't it you know let's just listen to people and and try and understand what they want to do and and in our Panic to succeed we do the other thing we do the opposite and now you've got somebody who has got a sandwich board on on the pavement outside his place that's offering discount accounts are specials to get you in and try the thing because and spend a lot of money opening this uh Bakery and Cafe and you know fitting it out and and doesn't doesn't have a clear strategy at this point now it's how can we get people through the door we'll just make it cheaper and that's what my good friend Seth call a race to the bottom yeah nobody wins well you can't win that game because literally 100 meters from their door you can go to the supermarket and buy um three cant for uh $6 so are you going to sell it for $2 next or are you just going to make the better product and have the better story and which the lon Quant people have got nailed people will pay5 and $6 for their Quant so you can't go into you have to book ahead if you want to go for their thing called the lon lab which is to go in and dine in there and have a cant degustation on a Sunday morning um that's booked out so what are they doing right what are the other people doing wrong that's that's all story so for somebody listening Bernette what aside from the obvious that we've been talking about might be a good place to start for them they're trying to build that next l yeah well your product has to be great right your product is your marketing too so if your product is great then people will talk about your product um not being all things to all people starting small trying and testing you know Lon was a hole in the wall um in a in a different suburb and they opened um they opened on weekends and people came people heard about them it was all driven by word of mouth I have never seen them advertise I have I've and yet they get so much exposure in the Press because the Press want good stories to tell they they want to share the good stuff in in the city um so great product start small understand who you who you uh who your customer is and I don't mean their demographics you know oh we're going to appeal to um businessmen who will live in the city and they've got this income and that income but what is it that the the business Diner wants to do what's his you know what are his um psychographics what's he thinking and feeling what's his world view what does he care about when he wants to bring a client in for lunch um not just the quality of the food but what else are you going to help him to do what's he trying to achieve and and how are you helping him to get there in relation to someone that's trying to build a personal brand versus a business entity is there a slight difference between everything that we've been talking about or do a lot of the same principles if not all the same principles apply I think all the same principles apply I mean the people who who uh stand out to us like the Gordon Ramsay and like the Jamie Olivers they actually got to where they are for actually having POS a position and for having an opinion and standing for that opinion and and you know not being wishy-washy or crossing any lines people you know are very aware of what Gordon Ramsey believes and what he doesn't believe and that he doesn't thinks Jamie Oliver is rubbish um and you know they know if they go to Gordon Ramsey they're going to get a certain style of of H cooking and certain type of arrogance and that's his brand right and and some people hate that and some people like it so again it's you know knowing what you you stand for what your values and beliefs are and and those things guide how you present yourself to the world and the interesting thing is when you understand your values and when they guide your behavior you attract people with like-minded values like my son who watches Gordon Ramsey videos to constantly and will say to me Mom you can't take that kind of shortcut when you're cooking you got to do it this way so um yeah I say to him wait till you've been doing it for 30 years you might want to take a couple of shortcuts right so you know Gordon attracts the kind of people who want to you know want the system and want to do it right and uh yeah very cool well burn thank you so much for your time as we're kind of wrapping up here we know you have a book coming out here in a few months maybe you could give it just a little bit of insights into what people can look forward to and and hunch which is uh turn your everyday insights into the next big thing yeah um this is a this is an interesting one what I'm trying to help people to do with this one is to really stop and question what it is the world needs from them and how they can trust themselves you know if you think about some of the most successful entrepreneurs that we know you know they're not looking for proof in the data um there was no data before Jamie Oliver went out there and did Naked Chef um there was no data for Sarah Blakeley when she um launched the Spanx brand with $5,000 you know sometimes you just got to trust your gut and go there was no data for the lon cant lady um she just wanted to do this thing felt that there was a place for it and you know trusted her got that um if she tried it and tested it and started small and got her market right that she uh she could win so it's about helping you to get better at trusting your intuition and you do that with practice so that's what this book is all about very cool very cool well thank you so much for your time it's been a pleasure chatting with you oh I've loved it thanks guys love talking about uh cooking in restaurant TS and cafes you're super welcome so that was our conversation with Bernett jwa Sean what were your takeaways you know Chris she has this way of just taking something that could be compx Le Lex creating a marketing strategy a brand story and she just simplifies it and that's what I love about her her work the blog the books it really helped me when I was putting together entrepreneurial chef and the the marketing strategy the Brand Story the positioning as we had talked about when she had asked me I started with the the end user in mind and work my way backwards well she was pivotal in helping me do that because her book book s very much imprinted on me and I had a lot of takeaways and for anybody that's trying to create something trying to make their brand matter I encourage you when she talks about you have to answer those questions and start peeling back those layers you have to do that work you can either try and rush it and see what sticks and shout it out into the marketplace or you can just do a little bit of that work up front and have a very good strategy so th that's what really stood out to me what about you Chris yeah I was really impressed with with her Simplicity of a lot of the things that we should all be thinking about a lot of the things that all the great brands have but you know we don't really have a finger to to put on that that idea or that concept A lot of times so you know for me getting kind of practical you hearing her talk about you know the International Bakery which we um alluded to but you she didn't say who it was versus this this other croissant company out of Melbourne Lon which will link to in in the show notes you know what's the difference you the large company they they expand into New Market and they're not doing very well and I to me it sounds like you they expanded because they felt like they could versus loons you expanding in scaling you at a small scale in a way that is best serving their customer is best serving their their their identity and and their story so it was cool to hear that and it really cool to hear some practical advice about about scaling and about starting a company if for you know for anyone out there listening uh that's that's looking to do that so with that we thank you for listening and look forward to seeing you next time until then here's a quote from Bernette jwa from her book meaningful the story of ideas that fly go out and find some real people listen to their stories don't ask for the main point let the story run its course like flowing water it will find its own way at its own pace and if you've got the patience you'll earn more than you may possibly ever imagin until next time we're signing [Music] off [Music]