Transcript for:
Insights on Word of Faith Movement

hi my friend if Doreen and in just a moment I'm going to introduce you to some new friends a husband and wife who have a very interesting story the husband Paul was raised in a Word of Faith Church actually kind of one that's pretty famous and he later became an employee with Joyce Meyer ministry his wife Emily who will also be joining us today was raised Catholic and got into word of faith where she met Paul who became her husband and they now have two small children and they were both working for Joyce Meyer ministry and Emily right after her baby stopped working and Paul continued working for Joyce Meyer ministries he had a good job in terms of being well paid with good benefits but the theology that he started to see and what Joyce was teaching did not line up with Scripture and so they're going to tell us their story about how finally they were convicted that the Word of Faith prosperity movement is unbiblical and we'll hear their true story about what they did when they realized that they could no longer be a part of Joyce Meyer ministries this is really interesting to me because some of you have heard me say that when I was newly saved I started to follow two women teachers who I thought were Christians and one of them was Joyce Meyer it actually happened by me going on Netflix and typing in the search engine of Netflix Christian and Joyce Myers videos popped up and I didn't know any different I hadn't read the whole Bible she seemed to be Christian she had a Bible she would quote scripture and she seemed to be this role model who I could follow because she was strong and successful and independent she seemed to be helping kids of third world countries and then one day I started to hear her say things that just didn't add up with what I already knew about Christianity things like Jesus went to hell where he was born again what and like she was saying that she did no sin because she was saved and that anyone who says you're a sinner is getting that theology from the depths of hell but when I was reading in the Bible in Romans 3:23 and in first John is that we're all sinners and we need to repent and that's why we need a Savior in Jesus in fact realizing I was a sinner was what led to my salvation so there was some things that just didn't add up so I went on fighting for the faith YouTube channel Pastor Chris Roseboro where he compared what joyce meyer was saying to what scripture says and they were the opposite and in fact chris Roseboro was saying that joyce meyer was a narcissistic teacher that she was teaching about herself not about scripture not about jesus and so i stopped listening to her and i actually i'm so grateful I stopped listening to the other false teacher and I started to get real immersed in reading the Word of God every day the Bible every day and only paying attention to teachers who were founded that were grounded in Scripture so I think you'll enjoy this interview please stay tuned Pollan Emily I'm so grateful that you could join us for this video and share about your experiences as you know it's something that's near and dear to my heart because I used to be a follower of Joyce and I thought she was a Christian solid teacher because she had a Bible and she was saying Bible verses and she seemed to be a role model for me of a strong successful Christian teacher but you may have thought that as well yes okay well where do we begin so I can kind of share my story a little bit really how I got to working at Joyce Meyer ministries and my exposure to her ministry I grew up here in st. Louis Missouri grew up in a church that was very prosperity driven Word of Faith theology and for those viewers that don't know what that is it's essentially the the assertion and the belief that by doing the right thing sing the right thing acting certain ways you can cause blessings to come in your life and the the pursuit of the Christian life is really getting what you want from God and not not God alone so that's Alegre and really that was just kind of a slippery slope any exposure of a teacher that I had was what a lot of people would call heretics so that's that was my upbringing by and large that that's how I grew up and that's how I got to know Joyce Meyer ministries a lot of my friends were gonna at church worked there or knew someone that worked there because we were very close physically to it's that ministry so so so it seemed like a natural segue for you very much so there was no red flags not at all not in the slightest bit yeah can I ask what your Bible study habits were back then so my Bible study habits were pretty pretty topical and it was it was almost even though I didn't I didn't grow up Catholic by any means at all she did but it was it was very Roman Catholic in the sense that even if you read a text you you would filter that text through what you were taught because you believed the person teaching you knew better than you did and there's there's a lot of spiritual manipulation in the sense of well God God told me this directly this is this is how we interpret this text this is what God told me so your pastor would say that he got direct special revelations from God absolutely all the time all the time and I'm assuming your parents took you there and they believed that also they did not to blame anybody but I was no yes I was raised in a false religion so I have empathy yes yeah and that's that's all I ever knew so if if I ever got sick as a child they would pray for me but the the end resolution was always will we have to go to church and have have pastor and pray for you because he's the one that's anointed he's he's the one that you know has this great sauce if you will lose the one a direct connection yes so anointed is a word we just recently interviewed Costigan about his uncle Benny Hinn and his his book God greed in the prosperity gospel and so this word anointed I wasn't raised with it so could you explain that for someone who doesn't know what that means sure so as far as the prosperity gospel would say or word if a theology would present the anointing they'd treat it as if it's this bird that can can fly away you you can't say certain things against anyone who's anointed if you question anything you're often told don't touch the words anointed and that's taken out of context obviously we're where David doesn't kill Saul one right I was gonna say but that's because Samuel anointed Saul right right so and it's not the biblical understanding of we are in Christ thus we are anointed around his level at the cross there's no class within Christianity you're not a different tier Christian than I am or vice versa but that's the phrase that you hear in that movement a lot because it insulates whoever's teaching against criticism biblically okay so don't touch the anointed means don't criticize the pastor because he's he's the highest authority and it sounds like you're saying he's the authority who interprets Scripture right that's that's correct so if you had a Charles Spurgeon commentary book and you had your pastor your pastor would be given more weight than a Charles Spurgeon book very much on it okay yeah because the the attitude is well on the Bible's great but it's almost treated as supplemental and people get used to listening to a human being that says well I hear directly from God you know they'll bring someone up and almost like a cold reading or something you read somebody's mail and you know they just they just fall and it may not have anything to do with Christ or anything very much at all but they gain credibility in that way they play on emotion and because of that they built trust and then they're just that questions was there ever a time Paul where you had the sense that something was wrong were there any personal I don't know conviction or rumblings that happened yep okay so there's two that I can think of the first one was actually was really I was probably about six years old and in in our church it was very highest came from an apostille background and taught word word of faith theology and if there was a healing night everyone would line up you know and the pastor would lay hands on people and people would fall down and roll around or foam at the mouth literally whatever whatever you can think of having pretty much happened and obviously as a six-year-old I was terrified when I saw that because that's not normal behavior at all and I was told well you know that's just we were scared too when we saw this as kids but that's just that's just what God does sometimes you can't control that sort of a thing and that was the answer that I was given so that was the first first time I remember being concerned this is that doesn't seem right and as an adult I actually worked in the TV ministry started volunteering as a kid and would actually produce the show in the back and I remember it really taking on a business face it was really about the business and the numbers actually how we met yes she actually saw the TV show okay we checked out that church and had a common friend so that's how I made my way yes you the church he grew up oh that's really interesting so you guys met at this Word of Faith Church and Emily you said your background was Catholic so this was quite a change for you yeah I so I was Catholic up until high school and then I had a friend I was going to their youth groups had some friends that were Methodist so it's a little bit more contemporary worship which was what drew me and and we all went to like a youth conference when I was 16 and that was the first time I'd actually heard like the Gospel message presented so essentially that was more of the coming to faith you know understanding that I was a sinner that Jesus you know died in the crisis that I would be forgiven and you know all of that so it's been a journey obviously but but yeah so Methodist and then you know coming to this word of faith theology and what did you think coming out of Methodists and going into word a faithless or really especially the the Methodists from a while ago it's more liberal now but that's that's quite a contrast yeah I think really the reason that I I was drawn to it I pretty much had like a prodigal season you know into college I really straight from the Lord so I was interested and like how can I make my life better okay so this was appealing to me because um they were telling me that you know if you say these things and you you know you say the right things and thank you God that this job is on the way thank you that this money is in the mailbox you know that God could give me a better life and I've been through some stuff and you know had some stuff in my past so that I think is really essentially what appealed to me that there was a way that I could connect to God and you know through this relationship with him I could have a better life here it reminds me of fun I grew up kind of with norman vincent peale books and he was that way to making those positive affirmations and the thing was they worked but they were always like a desert was a mirage that would disappear just as soon as it came oh yeah yeah my mom actually always listening to norman vincent peale tapes in the car okay so you grew up with that similar news yeah power of positive thinking that's and and like I said it works but it only works like a little bit yeah and then it's gone and it's and it never comes in as you want it to it always comes in with a twist that's painful why yeah so so let's sync way and talk about how you shifted from this particular Word of Faith Church to working with Joyce Meyer a lot of people write to me and they are following Joyce Meyer like I used to when I was a baby Christian when I was just recently saved I assumed that this woman is a Christian because Netflix said when I typed in Netflix in the search bar I want to watch them in Christian a pop Joyce Meyer so Netflix must know that she has a Bible she same Bible verses but what's wrong with this picture so in their first when you started working there first interesting okay what were you doing there so I was prior to that so I graduated college and the first job I had out of college I was in more of an administrative assistant role so I was there at like a medical office for like four years and I had been listening to Joyce like this whole time because that the church everything that's kind of what everybody would listen to is all all word faith teachers and there was just obviously as a woman appealing so I would listen to her on the way to work all the time and when I found out that she actually her ministry was in st. Louis I'm like oh my gosh like I want to work there and so for whatever reason I just had this desire that whole time that I was working in the medical office that somehow I would you know speak this into existence God you will open this door for me to work at this ministry and we did know a lot of people that work there so I was doing all I could you know kind of wiggle my way into you know you put a good word in for me you know so I finally landed an interview and in an administrative assistant role so so then I started working there and I was I don't know for several months and then we wanted to get him on as well and so we got him in and then we were both working there and then I actually got pregnant and so towards the end of my pregnancy we decided that I would stay home and be a stay-at-home mom and then he continued working there and Paul what capacity were you working Joyce Meyer ministries so when I started at Joyce Meyer ministries it was mostly data entry so working with the accounts the information of individuals that would contact the ministry whether it be for resources or prayer anything like that so is data entry to begin with and you would see a lot of the correspondence a lot of the mailings that they would sit in I'm asking for different prayers and sowing sowing monies is what it's usually referred to as you would read a lot about giving money to get something in return and really a lot of desperate people to be honest reaching out obviously for prayer any anything going on in their lives I would I would see that I wouldn't correspond with them directly what because I remember I was asking for prayer early I was one of those people sending money to Joyce Meyer not to get anything back but I think because I just liked her so much I wanted to support her yeah what happened to the money I sent to Joyce Meyer in my prayer request so your your prayer request is read and it is prayed over together all the kissing I mean there's a mail truck am i that delivers the mail so it's not like you know this little basket of mail it's a truck so it's it's put in this room and and people do pray over it I can't say emphatically that every single piece is prayed over it individually I believe every piece is read they have a pretty big correspondence department and they do try to see all the the individual pieces of mail because they have to be processed I mean if there's money down below that goes to mystery if he designated a certain certain relief fund there's so hand of hope is the missions organization for Joyce Meyer humanitarian relief so if was earmarked as such it would have went that way otherwise and just goes into the general fund okay so that's good because some of these Word of Faith Ministries you're here that nobody prays over the prayer request so it might be a big old pile like a pile of leaves but so yeah okay okay well you know there's some integrity there so yeah so far you know yeah things things look okay as you're working there yeah did you have pregnancy benefits did they give you benefits Emily health insurance yeah damn amazing yeah they amazing okay so they take care of their employees that was totally a job for us you know starting our family I think that's a vengeance essentially why we felt the need to stay yeah sure yeah yeah the benefits were great it was very appealing especially as a young family so there was nothing fringe or a Burin about how they treat employees to mine out but that wasn't my experience my my concern is I'm sure we'll get into in a bit was more theological absolutely versus experiential yeah okay well when did that when did they start to be cracks in the the picture of Joyce I mean did you ever did you ever meet her when she walked through the building in ER so she would show it to the building once a month they had chapel they call the chapel and Joyce more often than not about once a month once every two months would speak for about 30 minutes 45 minutes and that was that was it so she didn't she wasn't in the office she trout she does travel a lot but she doesn't physically show up there to work yeah I know how many people work there about five hundred will have when I started it was five hundred and strong in the u.s. they had they have offices all over the world Australia UK South Africa so they have offices all over the world in Fenton Missouri they were about 500 strong when I started and when I left I want to say they were about 350 375 it went down and went down quite a bit and honestly it's it's more technological advancement okay you know you know you compiled jobs people can be more with technologies things like that all right oh this is so interesting keep going please what happened next on all ears yeah so what happened next god I did so I was and I was I was very eager you know I I wanted to do a great job and they I learned more about computers and data and writing code and so forth later on but long story kind of shorted when uh yeah with the picture the Lord used a good friend of mine to this day on my desk because I was taught you know you visualize what you want and your faith is the you know the magic power that brings you what you want and really scripture was treated like like a spell book you just kind of pick what you want and this is what you're going to use to work and get what you really want to come into your life yeah the word works is what they would always say so the pastor that I grew up with actually had a barn full of Corvettes very wealthy so as a child I went over to because he had he had children so I went over to their house I thought me and this is whatever he's doing this is what I want you know you walk through and you see if you have to have a barn twice the size of most people's homes just for cars I mean come on so little boy's dream but yes yeah so that was my that stuck with me and on my desk I had a picture of a brand-new Corvette okay and so you were doing the whole visualization whole thing yeah yeah took the yeah I took the hook and everything pictures on your fridge yeah yeah they say your faith has ever target you can't you can't have faith without a target so that's what's that's been said so a good friend of mine to this day approached me when we just started kind of getting to know each other names like hey well you what do you have that on your desk I was like why wouldn't I have been on my desk don't you like cars you know you're a guy he's like well that isn't he's like wait why are you looking at that why is that something that your heart wants to have and I said well why wouldn't it be that's we're supposed to be blessed you're you're if you're Christian God wants you to have this is what I was taught and that's why I told him and actually to be to be transparent about it got a little bit upset but he would he would ask something that's come on everybody knows this why wouldn't you work for Joyce Meyer why are you asking me this way Joyce Meyer drives a Mercedes and has a private jet you're asking me why I have a picture of Accord about on my desk but that was kind of the in the armor I didn't understand why he would ask something like that and he said well there's there's a lot of scripture that talks about not desiring things of this world and we're supposed to turn from the the cares of the world and follow Christ and regardless of whether we have a lot or a little and I was like well you know that's cute but you're wrong so that was the first in the armor for me that made me question why do I believe what I believe and it started slowly but that was the first that's good even though that your friend worked for Joyce Meyer he was aware enough of true biblical theology to know that we're not supposed to store up our treasures here on earth but to store our treasures in heaven yeah and also it sounds like he's quoting Paul about that I've learned to live it's a little or a lot right yeah so so did you were you aware of those passages in the Bible no okay and yeah he introduced teachers and that's what that's what I don't think people always understand that when you grow up especially word of faith any teacher that you have access to usually networks with other yeah you know if you turn on TV in and all you're told your whole life is these are men and women I've got on TV in that's what you believe that's what your so he introduced me to some people that were not on TV and interesting do you remember who yes so is John Piper okay Wow mister reformed theology very reformed and it's you know in hindsight it was just the sovereignty of God that he would be there in in caring love me enough to say listen let's talk about this let's let's look at what you're doing here and why you believe what you believe that is so interesting so how did your friend introduce John Piper to you when your word of faith and John Piper theology is very conservative I mean did you just trust your friend was that that helped me too honestly I wanted to prove him wrong okay got it it's a challenge yeah so I don't I don't particularly elect abilities I mean like to be right and that was that was my attitude very foolish very so I thought I'm gonna I'm gonna listen to this John Piper guy and I'm gonna get my ducks in a row you're gonna find the holes in his theology all the holes and explain why he's wrong see whatever it takes yes yeah the first message and it was it was actually a sermon Jamie it's just a part of the message it wasn't was a whole sermon was probably five minutes and it was John Piper actually talking about the prosperity gospel because that's just the algorithm they came up on YouTube all its is what was popular at the time and he said a phrase that I'll never forget he said is Jesus Christ your treasure and it really cut me because what I grew up was using everyone used Jesus to get what they call treasure Jesus wasn't the treasure and then the snowball kind of kind of started that's profound I can really relate to that I was I grew up in Christian Science course where Jesus was said to be our teacher and our role model it was all about healing not prosperity for money it was all about healing so same thing I understand Jesus was Santa Claus or like a vending machine but very disrespectful yeah yeah and so john piper saying is jesus your treasure the holy spirit just convicted you he did and that's what that's what stuck with me and that was not that that was everything and there was a lot of lot of scripture searching and why well this is in the bible it's there they're saying it what's what's wrong well it's the twelve verses before what they're saying that they're leaving out yes you know that that was to come to be sure but that was the first the first statement that so emily how what was going on with you and paul's kind of having this this belief system unravel he would like send me text with like a youtube video like you need to listen to this you need to check this out and you know i would and that would be something that we would start talking about when he'd get home and so we that's kind of became our thing like we still kind of the same way i can relate but he'd come home we get in a baby in bed and we would just watch sermon after sermon and like you know they changed a different you know teachers depending on the algorithm and for me I think a big a moment was we had watched polishers shocking youth service call marcia shocking youth sermon is i don't know if you saw the interview Melissa and I did with Brandon Kimber the director of American gospel that was the video shocked appalled paul Washer shocking youth message that convicted him out of more faith yeah you'd be required viewing for everyone yes yes it was just like i remember sitting there we were watching TV in our bedroom and like my mouth was just like yes i don't know why you're clown I'm talking about you I don't know why you're clapping I'm talking about you I'll put the link in this video description so people everyone should watch it that was kind of this this start of like maybe this isn't you know like maybe what we've been believing is not is not right and at the time we were still at a prosperity gospel where to faith church it was just a different one in the same in the city and we were in leadership there and it was one of those things where we were what Paul was approaching the pastor and coming to him with these questions of like why like why do we say this like why do we teach us the Bible says this and we were pretty much met with apathy you know that he was told you know you're among some tall oaks right now you know like don't I think you're I think you're like looking into this too far and it was also the whole well maybe they took it like the new thought we started to figure out like the history of word faith movement you know we thought you know Phineas Quimby and all that right yeah and aw kiddin and so we started to come to him with these things and you know the answer would be well I think you know what if they took it from us type of Maritimes twisting it and so we really don't have anywhere to go you know so I think that was our biggest thing is think we never stopped asking questions and we were just so hungry for truth and you know getting in our word and you know and Justin Peters god bless no no Justin Peters yes him he he really like holidays when I was in 28 days when I was entering orders I was actually listening to work from Justin Peters I loved it we just kind of just kept digging and yeah we got to that point where he had a final with our pastor was like we just can't do this anymore like it's not it's not the gospel and we don't believe like so yeah eating what really got us there was people would come in and it was very prosperity driven obviously and it was it was very TV ministry geared which to me was very familiar I'm like I know I know how this works you know this is maybe for me this is how the game is it's a grat yeah that's all you're up so it's nothing new so obviously I fit right in with all of that but what I noticed is that really it was free labor in the sense of people would come in not knowing the gospel at all never really understanding who Jesus is according to Scripture and they would come in and we would make them say a 30-second prayer and then dismiss them as as being regenerate and me and let's put him to work because we need we need to help the machine has to get bigger and really that veges cut through my conscience I was like we didn't there's no gospel presentation and I still had a lot to learn that at that time but even then I was like they don't even know why they need Jesus why you know saying he's saying this prayer I can program the computer to save her that's right you know that doesn't that doesn't take God doing anything yeah oh the sinner's prayer I said it for months before I actually was saved and did nothing because I didn't know I was a sinner I didn't know I needed a savior right I don't know if it's that way with the Word of Faith Movement but growing up like I did we were told that we weren't sinners and I recently heard Joyce Meyer saying that that she's right Jason that's something that you also see Todd white and Chris valeton saying that there's this they are no longer sinning but that's in contrast to John's letter that says that if you say you're not a sinner you are a liar were you hearing things like that that you're you're perfect you're not a sinner no strangely enough it was just it was never talked about its kind of the same end result and just a different approach so instead of saying you're not a sinner we'll just ignore that and make you make you say this 30-second prayer so we can being what a Christians about and that was really being rich and getting whatever we wanted it sounds very works based very much so very much yeah because it's all it's all a formula so you don't you don't obey Christ because you love Christ and you're told to follow him you obey Christ because you want what you believe he's going to give you it was the dog trainer mentality he's a business partner so I I tithe my time is the stick he's the pinata when I looked inside the Fiat the pinata if I have the system right what do you think about that now I mean it's it's a heresy that's been around for a long time I think a whole image it does I think it distorts just grace in general and I mean I think it keeps you bound to the law right it's interesting that's the only aspect of the law that they adhere to at all they ignore all of it except for make sure you make sure you did make sure you type because if you don't you're cursed and you open the door to the devil and he's the Devourer if you don't give 10% and the client wasn't enough you had it's higher than it you know it says tithes and offerings so offerings you know that's what really moves the needle the title is like you know you have air in the tires but there's no engine until you hit the offer okay so they're really big into sowing seeds and and if you give you'll be blessed if you don't give you'll be cursed one of the saddest things I started selling for us happened I guess a little bit before maybe a year or so before we actually had left that church we were so like brainwashed you know into thinking that this is what you have to do you know you have to get to stay you know to keep the anointing you know to you know receive keep receiving the blessing and we the church had a guest speaker come and told a lot of stories that you know of you know the harvest of what people you know they did stillness and God did this and you know kind of you know spiritual manipulation essentially emotional manipulation and we weren't really at a place to give anything like a certain amount um and we were just you know just a few years married I think maybe um and so we he had told a story about how this lady had sowed her wedding rings and he said you know what is precious to you you know would you go to the extreme like this lady did to even put her wedding ring believe in God - you know for this harvest and we looked at each other and you know we slipped our wedding rings off put in an envelope and and wrote on there a new job for me a new house and abundance and finances so there was just this expectation you would get something if you give it was like the The MITRE the story of the widow and the miter and the in the New Testament it wasn't like that it wasn't like Malachi it wasn't like giving your firstfruits this was give to get right back to return like that is your faith your you're sowing this seed in faith believing God will you know hold up his end of the bargain and it sounds like you were really manipulated and guilted into doing this yes yeah it was it was spiritual and emotional manipulation to be sure when you tell stories over and over again and people's theology you know is already off to begin with and somebody comes in and confirms that it's it's sad but that's that's what you talks about they these false teachers they prey on people and that's what they do yeah yeah well hopefully you know that shows like Chris roseboro's fighting for the faith Justin Peters in to a lesser extent this these videos that listen I do hopefully it will help to help other people to see yeah the Bible says something different I wanted to know if you went to any of Joyce Meyers workshops or events because when she's broadcast she's in front of this huge audience with this very fancy backdrop I used to love watching the clouds may have on her backdrop and it just looks like thousands of people in different arenas and she's always promoting the next place and from what I understand that there's the tickets are free to go right for the snow day event would except for the Women's Conference okay yeah she charges for that they used to hold in st. Louis they did that for like 30 years and now she takes that to different cities that I had attended the Women's Conference a handful of times um and then obviously they have the stuff work the conference okay good experience a little bit of behind the scenes stuff what was that like for me when I was there um I was in charge of helping with the offerings so I liked it costea told a story of him doing that as they were like going through all the money in the back you know feel like they were like you know giving up everything it was the weirdest thing and it really kind of made my stomach churn because they have this this giant you know dolly with all these buckets of full of cash and checks and you know they just dumped it on the table and everybody's you know scurrying putting everything in piles and you have to do it quickly because it's money you know and just like actually you know like these these people are you know they're who knows how much they have to you know it's if they could be giving their last dollar and so that I don't know it was just on this scale I've seen like that because especially the women's conferences would be like from every nation you know would come to the fly and go to these conferences yeah that was a weird you knew that something was off yeah it just seemed like I don't know and there was always a lot of offerings like because so many sessions and then like it was almost like there was there was an offering you know given for every session and of course they play videos of you know the poorest countries you know like to kind of tug on hearts and stuff because they have that the hand of Hope outreach a part of it so have you investigated how much of those offerings go to help those whose orphans right you see these videos of her with orphans in some third-world country yeah so we we were always told it was mid 80% I think when I left it was 83 percent eighty four percent and we were also always told that it it supports about seventy five thousand kids all over the world daily for food and that's from the outside looking in it gives cover to a lot because people say we'll look at what look at what they're doing they feed these kids all over the world and as wonderful as that is at the end of the day if if they don't hear a clear gospel which word of faith is not a clear gospel if they don't hear a clear gospel this is nothing more than humanism there's a lot of atheists with a lot of money that feed a lot of kids and they bring their cameras there too because it makes them look really good so and not to not to say that it doesn't go to that because I think it does but that that's not the answer to everything right they're not hearing the gospel yeah no no they're not they're not hearing the gospel in any any form of the gospel that they were here is going to be in accordance to what what is taught by a choice and I certainly wasn't there in in Africa or the UK or where these outreaches are so it this is second hand in the sense of it's under her ministry so you can assume that it's gonna line up with what she teaches okay was there a pressure to tithe an offer at the Women's Conference Emily and probably not tithe but yeah I mean essentially going along with her message and I'm sure he has some quotes you know like if you want to be broke stay broke you know like just very few yes you know like she's flippant in that aspect of just like this is this is what you're supposed to do you know to give to you know what you're doing is not what you're doing so you know huh how much did the tickets cost go to the women's event I think so so reasonable but people would spend a lot more than that during the weekend on products and merch and just Joyce Meyer do book signings no is she making a personal appearance that's no okay she does anymore um she will out the guest speakers they will do that occasionally and that's also another concerning thing up who she would bring on yeah so see in her a roster yes itself that should be a red flag to us of who she surrounds herself with and who she endorses who endorses her um and even Jesus culture is tied in there to just culture as the pianist yeah yeah so so this is super interesting you know there's I have so many questions Joyce has obviously been heavily criticized for her her wealth for her private jets for her looks like a mansion she has and I know she has other houses but then the Word of Faith ministers and you know let's not even get into female pastors at the moment maybe we'll watch that later but they they always say well look at Abraham was rich or you know stuff like that David was rich during the height of his career so what as an insider a former insider what did you see about her personal prosperity and was there a sense that she was kind of taking first yeah I mean there there was never any question that there was no shame in lifestyle that this is what this is what has taught the Kings kid slogan you're not you're not broke you're not poor you're not a sinner that's not a victorious life this is negative yeah there was no defense of that and okay that reminds me a new age I remember some of the very high level New Age teachers saying well look at how successful I am this obviously works right yeah that's that's one of the things is if if anyone questions that and you can tell that she's used to having people questioned because even in her sermons and I used that word loosely she she says well what you're doing is not work in her and don't tell me you know religious people will say yeah what does she mean religious people people that read the Bible in context so the religious spirit that's what you hear the bethlo people saying yeah it's it's the same idea when I left I I compiled a document and cited why I was leaving and then actually hold videos so there was context around what I was saying on why I was leaving in the scripture that was being twisted so it's yeah it's taken out of context quite a bit quite a bit that's putting it very mildly yes Danvers and use it in eisegesis to back up what you want it to say right third third John one two is like these scriptures it's like it's all it's on the drywall and what does it say and what did they say it means so third John 1:2 says beloved I wish above all things that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers and it's there and it's in black and white the problem is the way they use that and Joyce uses this in her meetings and says see God wants you to be prosperous and to be healthy and we'll take this scripture and we'll put it on a screen in front of 10,000 people and there it is she doesn't include the verse before that which is the first verse of the entire letter it's not like you know worth 30 verses in and you're right I figure out what starts where this is the first person the in book and it says that the beloved Gaius it's a salutation it's no more than me writing you a letter and saying I hope this finds you well right but we don't write letters anymore and that's all it is and she takes that and says see here's what God wants it's not it's not a prescription for all believers to always be healthy and always be wealthy because that promise that false promise gives people false hope and sets them up for a big crash doesn't it yes yes especially yeah if there's any tragedy you get a terrible diagnosis well then there's a there's an answer for that too the answer and so very you may be aware of this the answer to that historically to get around any kind of suffering was well you just you don't have enough faith you don't have the machine calibrated right you must have done something because it's working for me because I'm at the top of the pyramid so it must be your faith you're not doing something right so would they have said that to Apostle Paul when he was in prison that he didn't have enough faith right exactly usually which also like putting God in the devil you know on a fighting plane instead of God allowing things to happen so the sovereignty of God is very much doesn't exist no you are your own God and they even have that you know like just that little God theology kind of in there she's kind of backed off a little bit from that I'd say recently yes but there are like an audio clip that's pretty popular yeah of her talking about that okay about Jesus being born again yeah that's what I want to ask you and that was for me the in the armor where I was all in for her but when I started to hear her clips about her saying that Jesus was born again in hell I mean even even I just a neophyte to the Bible could see it that way this isn't right do you know something the Menace that blood sacrifice was exception Jesus was the first human being that was ever born again that would seal I mean it happened when he was in help the biggest party that never been had they had my Jesus in the floor and they were standing on his back jumping up and down laughing and he had become a sin don't you think that God was pacing wanting to put a stop to what was going on all the hosts of Hell were upon him upon it up on him the angels are in agony all the creation is groaning all the hosts of hell was upon him upon him they got on him they got him down in the floor and got on him and they were laughing and mocking ha ha ha you trusted God and look where you ended up you thought he'd save you and get you off that cross he didn't ha ha ha Sunday morning Sunday morning here comes the Sun Sunday morning God gets themselves together ho ho justice has been met somehow the slings been taken care of and all God gets his voice together and he hollers out three words and they go roaring through the universe and entering the gates of Hell he said it [Music] so what was going on with her saying that and is she still saying that as far as you know as far as I know yes in the the argument from people that would defend her or teachers like her by and large that group think that group mentality they'll say well she doesn't say that anymore right you'll hear that a lot well that was twenty years ago she doesn't say that anymore well the problem is it's never been recanted at all if you if you if I say something that if I point out the scripture and it's out of context or the motive is wrong I'm in to repent of that but you know especially if if I'm a teacher and I'm claiming you know that that position there's no repentance of any of this but the heat has gotten at a level more recently where there's been a video of her saying you know III maybe took the Chris Roseboro leg yes what a great video on it of her saying you know I things kind of got out of balance see the the Christian Post recently covered this because she put a video out on Instagram and and and so apparently this is supposed to suffice as a as an admission of guilt as as well you know a confession of sins and I would just argue it's not even close from the article itself says popular television evangelist Joyce Meyer has admitted that her beliefs in prosperity and faith were at times quote-unquote out of balance yeah and when bad things happen to people such as the death of a child Meyer said that she now understands that it's not because they didn't have enough faith so let's go ahead and watch this Instagram video together shall we and note that this as far as confession of sin and admission of guilt falls woefully short of the damage that she has wrought on the body of Christ here we go faith is something God gives you that you need to use and release in your life it's a sea we didn't get very far faith is a force of something like that I have to release in my life which text says that where on earth in the bible does it say I have to you know activate or release my faith and that it's a force faith you know the just a simple concept of faith is you know the Greek word is piss toss in this noun form and it means trust and pistou Oh again trust you know and so the idea here is is that faith is a gift given by God faith in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins is actually given by God Himself will do a little bit of work you know from like Ephesians chapter 2 Ephesians chapter 2 and passage that we're all familiar with if seasons two and eight and nine if for by grace you have been saved through dia faith pass to us through faith and this is not your own doing now you sitting there going well what isn't my own doing answer the salvation and the faith faith itself is a gift of God not a result of works so that no one may boast for we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works in fact if you trust in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins you're a penitent sinner who believes that Jesus has bled and died for you that trust that you have in Christ that Trust is called faith pistou oh you know that's what it is it's faith and so this is a gift given by God this is not something you activate it's not something you release it's not a force nowhere in scripture does it teach this so here in this admission video of Joyce Myers we already have problems because she's saying that faith is a fourth and force and we've got to somehow release it in our lives yeah no oh force but it's not just an automatic you put your trust in God you well we just read in Ephesians you don't put your trust in God God gives you faith as a gift yeah put your faith in him I'm glad for what I learned about prosperity but it got out of balance out of balance this is the woman who was infamously known for having a golden toilet I think the only other person I've ever heard of having a golden toilet was Saddam Hussein it's so so her views on prosperity and faith were you know not heretical no I didn't exploit people in my greed no balance you know I just needed to go to Walmart you know to the telia tire lube Express and get my faith back in alignment and yet get the tires balanced on my theology listen to what she says next I'm glad for what I learned about faith but it got out of balance and so every time somebody had a problem in their life it was because they didn't have enough faith if you got sick you didn't have enough faith if your child died you didn't have enough faith whoa I mean just notice how blase she just glosses right over that so if your child died it's because you didn't have enough faith I want you to think about just how damaging that theology has been to countless hundreds of thousands if not millions of people so somebody you know has gone through the trauma of having one of their children die and Joyce Myers theology was well yeah just didn't have enough faith it's your fault your child is now in the grave if you had just activated this force in your life and brought your faith up to the right level your child would be alive today so it's your fault this child is dead consider just how devastating that theology is not only is it heretical it just obliterates somebody's belief in God and turns God into a monster and me now culpable when it you know if my child had gotten sick and died and she just glosses over it well you used to say it's just out of balance you know this is sick well that's not right you can't there's nowhere in the Bible where we're promised that we'll never have any trouble I don't care I agree but you're admitting not really confessing admitting that what you were teaching was not biblical and not even owning remotely owning the damage that you have done to people if somebody's kid just died and for years you've said that happened because they didn't have enough faith essentially when you follow it to the end of the road that's what's implied what's implied is if you have these problems and you don't have what the world calls a victorious life that's on you because it works for me and it's I mean it destroys lives it really does yeah and I I imagine too that if it's an unsaved person not hearing the gospel this could be a salvific issue where they will remain unsaved yeah they're never remember given a clear gospel they're told that they can they can say a prayer get the car the stance and go on to what the world already wants you don't have to be a Christian to not want to be sick or to be rich and for me your earlier question you're asking kind of what what led up to this why what kind of woke you up when you read in scripture that Lucifer what he was tempting Jesus with is everything these false teachers say that God wants you to have what God are they talking about so scary yeah well just take a moment right there foof it really is the prosperity gospel is Genesis 3 repeated over and over and over again and like you said Jesus's temptation in the wilderness you can have everything just bow down to me I'm conscious I mean nobody except for I don't know total rebels would say that they want to worship Satan to get what they want most people would say I want to please God and you don't realize that you're following a false god and then your eyes are open like yours for yeah so did you guys what happened did you repent at you yeah so we did and that was that was a process for us when you're when you're when you're deceived and you realize that the first 20 plus 25 years of your life by and large were a lie actually completely were a lie and really can be likened to a cult at least a theological call tables you don't want to be deceived again just on a human level I mean that's a that's a pretty reasonable thing so we did repent and that process started and we slowly began to make changes because what we didn't want to happen and we didn't want to say well we've never met John Piper in person is this you know is this check out is this on the up-and-up which obviously scripture scripture extent is the defense of all of that but at a human level of just being cautious that you're not deceived again I think kind of cautious by Nature yeah well no teacher is a hundred percent except for Jesus I mean we know that we know that the Bible is completely coherent and if there's any mistakes we see in it it's our mistake like yeah so so obviously then that sounds like you change churches yes we did yeah so we changed searches and before her before we did that there is a meeting because I'm I was really tore up about it and I knew this individual for a very long time and I approached him and said listen I were leaving we can't we can't attend anymore and they were definitely tears shed because I I saw the business of getting people to believe one that they were saved and to getting them to believe that if you listen to whoever was up fine you can get whatever you want hmm and I explained that and I said well that's not that's not the gospel we're just we're telling people to say prayer and that eases our conscience to get the Machine bigger and essentially I was told well can't you can't you have that conviction and still stay because I was yeah we were in leadership there in the word you had taught yeah I was being more read to a teaching role which was terrifying because I didn't know beans about anything but yes so that's that's what happened leading up to that and we we did leave and we're part of a great Church here in st. Louis now there Reformed Theological II they do a lot of great work in the community so that's that's the happy and yes I understand Michael and I are at a Reformed Church now too and one of the reasons that we will be in a Reformed Church is because they don't have New Age nonsense there right and there's no Bethel or Hillsong or elevation music no hymns there's no yoga classes there's no Enneagram personality tests there's no prophets or proper justice on the stage it's it was no female pastor it's just early but then people say really must be spiritually dead there's must be no Holy Spirit there oh yes there's Holy Spirit there of course because the Holy Spirit's the author of the Bible exactly yeah yeah so I can relate to what you're saying yeah looking back one of the things I see because I was in the prosperity in the New Age also is that it's kind of like a Multi multi level marketing scheme isn't it I didn't know it at the time but the people who make the money from saying a word over someone or speaking a word or however you put it you know manifesting is the word in this new page the only ones making the money are the ones teaching and charging money for books or audios or classes on it did you see that - absolutely yeah it's a Ponzi scheme it isn't for the people on top and it destroys the lives of the people on the bottom because well custody custody for instance his experience his family was on the top my experience was my family was on the bottom so same theologian sides of this scale your family was giving a lot of seed money oh okay let's gonna ask you how that's going with your parents yeah so they they don't attend that church that I grew up at anymore and and to be fair I'm sure that nobody would like to know that they they exposed children to anything that wasn't wasn't right or dangerous and I have so much regret about raising my kids as I was raised and I've repented and apologized to them so your kids how old are they now okay so they're young enough where this was a year old and that was a big reason we're like no they they won't the only way they'll know of it is that it's false how to refute it and how to see you good and then what about your relationship with your family and friends who are still in the Word of Faith Movement yeah so my relationship with my family my mother and father I mean it's it's fine there's no issues there in the sense of you know I'll always be there son they'll always be mom and dad but there there hasn't been a man we really believed alive for 25 years kind of a kind of a conversation and that's okay I mean we pray for them and pray for that to happen and you've shared the gospel with them right very much yeah and that's I mean that's something that I think is on everybody's heart if a lot of deception at some level and their family still in it my brother actually worked for the church that I grew up at and he passed away a year year and a half ago I'm sorry there's me and him but he he grew up in that and sadly never never came out of that so he was he was in that movement and one of the kind of right-hand guys until until the very end so it's I mean these are his friends that are still there like that's you know I recently recently said something because it had been long enough for my brother's passing that I you know I didn't want to be distasteful in any way I actually went out and said something on Facebook the church that I grew up I was having a revival a healing service revival and at this revival they asked for money they needed three hundred thousand dollars for humor so we'll bring kids on the stage and will rub their ear and you know put them in front of thousands of people any child with that emotional stimulus is going to cry or shape or something I mean their children and will will play on people's emotions to get money yeah I got so those God's gonna do this and keep stirring they're so mean there's someone here and this isn't going to be this way anymore and and things like that so that was that I called that out recently because there's so many people that still go there it's a massive there's 10,000 members Wow it's the biggest as pretty sure it's the biggest names and there's no location in Florida so there I mean and he's connected all of them joyce their pet show um you've got kenneth copeland joel osteen steven Furtick like if yeah just you name um he's connected to them in some way and so I think for us speaking out about like just calling it out for what it is it really rattled the cage a little bit said you wrote it almost like a manifesto right yeah okay and you what did you do you brought it into work so I compiled this document and I I spent quite a bit of time with it because it wasn't I wasn't leaving because of a normal reason to leave the job it wasn't the pee at all it wasn't the benefits it wasn't any of that it was that I felt that if I if I knew better and I was I was born again I'm saved and God brought me out of deception and I know sound theology you know I'm not the one saying this I'm not I'm not on her stage saying these things at some level I'm still involved right you were supporting her I was supporting her and I couldn't take the conviction anymore yeah knowing that well it you know better but who you who you're marketing to doesn't know better right so I couldn't take that anymore thank God it was after we watched American gospel yeah I remember no American gospel had clips of a lot of the Word of Faith Movement people like Todd white and Joel Osteen and Kenneth Copeland did it have Joyce Meyer in the face she's like she can't go under the radar yeah hey you know your listeners like what's wrong you know but it's still like at the foundation at the root of it it's it is the Word of Faith prosperity gospel it's treating Jesus like a santa claus absolutely right so this this document I compiled and got five or six pages worth of clips and put scripture behind it and said this is this is the Bible verses what I'm hearing here and for this reason I can't I can't stay here and it's because I if I'm a Christian and I stay here something's wrong I can't help the machine is that were to deceive people and that's depending on who you are I guess easier said than done sometimes you can you know if somebody works for anheuser-busch well you don't you know you're not driving the car that somebody's driving when they you know hurt somebody's family you can even justify all kinds of things but that's what I did and I sat down with the executives one executive that I report to and explained why I was leaving and went through that that document so and how was that received she's a good friend yeah she's a lot of loyalty there yeah and she she did listen she she gave the time to her credit and we walked through this document and why why this is aberrant and why why saying that Jesus being born again is blasphemy in the highest degree this is not Christian this is another religion and those are those are strong in order to do that tactfully you know and you you want to do it in love so that conversation happened and I was told that that would be taken to the rest of the the executive team because that wasn't my nature that's not my personality I'm an analyst on idea you know I you know do emotions but I don't do emotions yeah right or it's wrong right exactly yes so yeah that's that's kind of what happened that so I passed that point God in his Providence had a lot of people contact me that heard about it and I was able to give this out to quite a few people interesting words there yeah everyone's gonna ask - you have this document is it online similar to the link or I'll send it to you okay oh it's for you at the top of the document it's just like you're talking about conferences the Women's Conference is just I mean that's the that's the big event every year that's the Superbowl in the name of the Women's Conference is love life well Jesus says we're not supposed to live our life in that those who are their life will lose it it's to lose their life we'll find it and the goal of the Christian life isn't to find a better life right now it'll be that's it yeah it's not about our best life now right it's a preparing for eternity exactly yeah so that was that was the the top of the document and that's that's where I started but I I compiled it because I I wanted people to see what is being said it is not personal so it's it's not a smear campaign no it doesn't sound like it it's just were called to judge rightly it's had take all things to scripture hold fast the given there are so many examples in the Bible of Jesus calling out false teachers of Paul calling out false teachers throughout the letters of the New Testament and you know in in false prophets ever since Deuteronomy we're supposed to call it false prophets so this is not judging a biblical way don't write us letters unless you actually studied that part of the Bible yes I get that all the time oh they're not being very christ-like by judging and then some people say about Matthew 18 you know why didn't you just sit down with Joyce Paul why didn't you just take her aside Paul and talk with her well Joyce unfortunately has a has a lot of body or he's insulated talking about what you think about things even in the ministry I remember when I worked there like my first week there I was leaving to go get coffee with a co-worker and she was getting out of her car her driver pulled up you know the car and she was getting out and I was like oh my gosh like on my first week here you know joy sighting and I'm like really like first reaction is you know meeting or whatever and then I was told like later when we came back you know if you see her walking around you know you can be kind and you know say hi or whatever but you really aren't supposed to approach her and talk to her and just you know just not and so there probably wouldn't be even working in the ministry there powers any one-on-one meetings if we wanted to you know go to her we were told this document made it all the way to the CEO who is her son who so he's you know the one that essentially runs the ministry yeah but we don't know really what happened after that we just prayed that you know whoever whoever reads it or whatever you know that their eyes would be opened yeah we just we want people to see that just because somebody's on Christian television or on a Christian radio station or to your point earlier holds a Bible and it doesn't mean one that they're Christian and it certainly doesn't mean that they're they're fit to teach other people in Christchurch now it's gotten to the point to where and a lot of a lot of these clips a lot of these sermons she doesn't even hold a Bible anymore there's a there's an example of Lakewood that I included in my document when she spoke for Joel Osteen the first five plus minutes of that talk we'll call it was her diary and she read her diary of what God told her it was essentially that you know if you say right things in here I think it had to do I'm not complaining that's that's what the topic was and well if you complain that's you know almost it's it's fun is like bad karma you know don't remind the fact that it's thin we just we don't want to complain because we're not going to get what we want God God can't use that which works well in liquid right yeah that'd be well-received there but it was really disturbing because it was it was five plus minutes and there's no scripture at all it was there was no effort to say not that twisting scripture is admirable but there was no even there wasn't even screwed for involved we're just bringing up this what came into my head that I call God Percival's it's not said this before fifteen thousand people that's identical to the psychics of New Age teachings that's all they do is just whatever it pops in your head you say and you just think it's from a spirit guide or from angels or in this case say it's from God and you have to line it up to scripture yeah this is why we always say read your Bible read your Bible and compare everything to scripture so you won't be deceived and especially like all of us we've all been deceived and we've been hurt terribly hurt by realizing we were deceived so the only way to guard against that happening again is to really know your Bible right yeah absolutely wow there's just so much to this I have so many questions floating in my head is there anything else that you want to add I mean did was there a fallout from you leaving did other people leave or yeah there were there were some people that left and some people that were a little bit a little bit more cautious as far as say anything that had been struggling for a while of you know this struggle of well I think something is wrong but I'm comfortable here okay it's the benefits are well and they were willing to compromise right so to God's glory that that helped at least one person that I know of for sure say you know what you're you're spot-on with what your your sighting and actually read what I compiled and that's not that's not me that's that's the Lord in Scripture but that's what for us that's what this is about if this isn't as I got bored one day and had nothing better to do is that I was I was deceived for the first 25 years of my life being told something was Christianity and it's not it's not at all so I just want people to hear biblical Christianity know the Jesus of the Bible there's Jesus that she speaks about many other teachers speak about Kenneth Copeland Jesse to Plains Creflo Dollar it's a different Jesus yeah it's not enough to believe in Jesus demons believe in Jesus you had to believe in the right Jesus so that that's what we want we want people to to search the Scriptures inspector Phineas Quimby who was the teacher who led to Christian Science religious science unity word of faith and interestingly one of the Phineas's in the Bible was Eli son in 1st Samuel who was a heretic yeah he was sleeping with women right and left he was taking God's offerings of for himself so it's kind of interesting that that namesake kind of reacted in the same way let's talk just a moment about women pastors and I know this is a hot-button issue right now with Beth Moore and John MacArthur and and there's been a straw man argument that some people are saying women can't share the gospel which is not true women are supposed to share the gospel and women can do videos like this and write books and write blogs and such and teach other women and teach use and I know I've heard say that Joyce calls herself a Bible study teacher not a pastor yeah that's true and but but still it's really a grey area our friend Michelle Leslie and was on this program recently and she really was clarifying 1st Timothy 2:12 saying that any kind of church setting where there's a mixed audience and men and women women cannot be in authority / moon and I'm a woman I I'm a very independent strong woman and that does not offend me at all actually find comfort and in trust God structure and how do you feel about this Emily is a woman oh definitely yeah agree with you that's something I think I actually the Methodist Church that I was attending in high school right her the best that was actually a woman woman pastor that was something over time I think that I would kind of challenge him on but what what you know and like but really just searching the scriptures and listening the sound teaching coming to that to that point that like you said God put that structure in place for a reason right and it's the creation order and it's for our protection these boundaries aren't to keep us from you know keep us from something as far as like us like him limiting us it's just how God made us you know as the role of a woman like is very unique in a sense we're you know God had made us to do specific things and being a pastor and an elder of the church is not one of them that'd be like saying that I want to be a father you know that's not my role I was God gave me a role to be a mother and that doesn't mean that it's any less than oh you know as the father and in our family so the same thing with the church family in the church body I don't it's not to say that I don't believe God has hasn't given women teaching gifts I am actually a writer and blogger as well so I definitely used that gift through my writing you know holding Bible studies with other women or speaking you know like you said to youth I don't anything wrong with that but yes a mixed body essentially a woman should not have authority over man and the Scriptures here with that really clear is the dog one of the things that Michelle Leslie kind of convicted me on was I I was attending near our house this this couple near our house they were doing a two-year long Bible study with a woman leaning it with a mixed audience and so I asked Michelle I said okay now that I know this if I had ten that Bible study am i sinning and she said yes you know and I really respect her take on that and I've been praying about it I haven't gone back to the Bible study sentence and so I really respect you both for I imagine how hard that must have been you've got two young kids you've got a family and you've got this great job in terms of benefits and salary not great in terms of your consciousness and your theology and and you really were in that position of sell everything and follow me yeah yeah so he coming home depressed like is depressed and we you know it was one of those things where he was wrestling with you know is this because you know me grieving my brother's passing like what like what is the root of this and just it was obvious he felt like heat like he told me I just feel like I'm living a double life yeah I don't believe this I don't want to support this and obviously that is taking a risk and like just trusting God that he would you know provide a way out and he did and we're thankful to not have any association with it at all anymore yeah so you got another job okay yes yeah it's a great job it's here in st. Louis University so it's in my feeling yeah it's it's medical based so I'm very blessed to be able to still do something that helps people physically not not spiritually per se but so that was faithful I can relate when I had to give up you know I was fired from my publisher but I had other jobs related to New Age that we're still making some money and I had to give him up and it was scary but I just kept leaning on God not sowing seeds not word of faith not visualizing not affirming but leaning on God and his understanding and and he God has really taken care of Michael and I not prosperously you know no lifestyles the rich and famous by any means but but God really will take care of your needs not your wants right yeah yeah he's a good father you don't you don't have to have a big checkbook for for him to provide for his children and that's that's what's so sad is that theology twist it's worse yes I don't yeah our five year old Isaiah he always goes in the cabinet and pretty much grabs whatever he wants he acts like he owns the place what five-year-old doesn't and I don't I don't ask him for for his cut you know whatever I have he has and it's not because he did anything for me at all and really it's is arrogant to think that we can we can do anything I mean we're we're dead we're dead in the sins we really want the answer homes that's right yeah that's how it was for me I didn't ask to be saved people it's come to me and they go I'm so surprised you're Christian and I say me too it was not in my life play dearly a hundred percent of God who did this yeah so I can relate you guys have been so great to share your time and your testimonies and in your heart with all of us is there anything else you want to leave people with perhaps talk to people who are following Joyce Meyer or word of faith um I would say that don't don't trust experience and don't trust tradition there's a lot of people me included that for many years trusted what I thought was right and followed people that I thought knew better and the reality is they did the same thing and and that's why this exists so I would just encourage people to not not view any of this and not dismiss it not just miss it as something that well these people are just upset and you know they don't really know who I listen to and at the end of the day if it doesn't line up with the scripture it's another gospel and Paul was pretty clear about following a different gospel regulations he's talking about that alright well thank you again and I want to thank you for watching this video of course we'll have other videos coming up to help you to not be deceived god bless you