Power is, it is an NPO and it's also overseas. People always say to me, you know, what's it like to start a nonprofit? And I always say, more traffic power has actually taken about 20 years of building relationships. In our communities, there are champions or heroes that are already doing things. And so often I think as business people, as entrepreneurs, you know, we think. And so we thought, you know, why can't we do that here in South Africa? Why can't we empower champions? And I think there are so many people in our world today that want to be involved with something. david thank you so much for joining yeah i'm really excited for you to be here and thanks for joining so this topic is just going to be a normal conversation just going to talk about family finances and faith and so perhaps before we start if you can just introduce us a little bit about yourself from where your journey was and where you are today and yeah then we can take it on from there great well thank you first of all for having me here um it really is quite a privilege and uh Yeah, so thank you to you Zunda and this is exciting for what you're doing and what you're putting together and I trust and I believe that it's going to impact many lives. So like you mentioned, my name is David and I've been married for just over seven years now. And to my beautiful wife, Brooke Octavia. And then got two kids, Judah James. My little boy, he's going to be five in August. Five? Yeah. So time flies. And then my little girl, Riley Madison, will be three in August. So that time flies with our kids. Yeah. They grow so quickly and their personalities become so alive. and real so quickly. But yeah, born in Johannesburg, grew up in Johannesburg, did all my schooling in Johannesburg. And then when I matriculated, my parents got an opportunity in Durbanville, northern suburbs of Cape Town. So being the baby in the house, I've got two older sisters. I followed with the parents. I didn't think I was brave enough or courageous enough to. to live by myself at 18. um you know so the older yeah sisters are older so one's three years older so 21 then and then five years older so it would have been was that 23. so they were a lot more settled than i was just matriculating which in hindsight was a great move for me to come down to durbanville with my parents um studied down in cape town got connected to a great church and uh and then you studied theology yes so also psychology so yes so cornerstone christian college was in plumpstead at the moment then um and they affiliated to stellenbosch so the degrees actually through stellenbosch but yeah like you say focused on theology and psychology so i did three years in that and it was a really formative time of my life Getting an understanding of the Word of God, but also people. And I think those are kind of the two biggest things that we need an understanding of. If we understand our faith and we know who we are in Christ, everything else can flow from that. But also how do we interact with people and meeting people where they're at? And I think psychology definitely helps with that to get that understanding. on a practical level and then yeah so finished up my studies and then actually worked for a company called glass coat for eight years as a sales rep for them we sold epoxy and polyurethane resin flooring and paint which was fantastic and again a learning experience learning how to deal with clients, people that are unhappy that they didn't get their stock on time. How do you navigate those spaces when the order is not going to be ready on time and you're waiting on the factory? How do you treat them? But how do you treat the clients and bringing that together? The place that you worked at, was it still in Durbanville? Yeah, so it was in Kells River. Our premises that we worked at was DecroPaint. And Decoropaints used to manufacture all our products for us. So yeah, that was fantastic. I learned a lot about paint, which we all utilize. But it was interesting. So I developed my people skills through that, but also began to realize I wasn't passionate about something that had no eternal value. And it blew my mind that I could be selling something that's over 1,000 rand a square meter, and guys would be doing like... 500 square meters at a time yeah and you know it meant nothing in eternity yeah and these guys didn't blink in paying that kind of money um and uh so yeah i worked there for eight years and then in 2013 um yeah i felt a shift i watched the elevation uh dvd uh about steven furtick and how they launched their church um and they left county and they left their church and they went to plant at just eight couples yeah no clear strategy just a word from god and uh yeah i felt something shift in my spirit then and uh yeah about a day later i got a phone call from sean who's the senior pastor at urban edge he wasn't the senior pastor then uh pastor donovan was still and uh i thought he was just gonna phone and be like hey you know we need you to volunteer here i will do this and I went into his office and he said, you know, would you be keen to work for the church? I said, sure. Like, he says, well, when can you start? So that was literally in December and then the January. Which year was this now? This was in 2000. So I started working for Urban Engine 2013. 2013, okay. So it was great and did some incredible things. And one of the highlights was we began to... realize at sir durbanville's quite close to stalinbush and we are realizing that we had a massive influx of kind of students on the weekend and then they would disappear during the week and we didn't know where they were but obviously they were all in res and everything in stalinbush and so we started planting small groups into stalinbush okay and uh yeah i went to go visit a small group instead Stellenbosch and Brooke was attending it for the first time. Okay. I was going to ask her, that's probably where you met. Yeah, that's how we met. So Brooke is from Georgia originally. Yes, I remember. Yeah. But she was studying in Stellenbosch and then yeah, we got to do some exciting things together. We started something called Church in a Club where we rented our terrace, which is a nightclub in Stellenbosch on a Thursday night and guys could come in and order a drink. And then sit and we would have worship and, you know, a bit of a preach. Yeah. And life's very impacted. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually amazing, yeah. And so from then, so that's when you were still in Durbanville. And at Durbanville, you were for how many years were you there at Urban Edge? So I was there for four years. Four years, okay. I worked with the young adults, did pastoral work, as well as headed up the volunteers. So, yeah, expanded my leadership. and brooke and i started dating 2016 we got married in 2017 2017 yeah yeah so and then again we felt kind of the shift we didn't know what it was going to be and so we spoke to sean again and we kind of the initial thought was i was already on staff at urban edge is there an opportunity for brooke and uh sean was like there is but i can't tell you when um so you kind of just need to weight and we kind of felt is that going to be a six months weight is that a year is that five years ten years and uh kind of felt okay how does this work out and then sean came back to us and he said well we've done missions trips to lesotho um and we're actually looking for a full-time couple to go to lesotho um would you be interested in that which both brooke and i had seriously considered um i I'd been going to Lesotho every year, at least once a year since 2002. So yeah, I really had a massive place in my heart. And Brooke had gone there on other missions trips out of her own capacity. So now we obviously married and so there was a greater connection. And we prayed into that. We really felt it. Some downsides, I'm not a handyman. So what if I had a challenge? And I married her. I want that almost in a break. So here. you know our water pipes froze over or we needed to change a door handle on our house door i think we would have struggled and i'm also a little bit scared of riding horses uh which we were planting churches i would have needed to ride but as uh obviously just a couple of things that make light of but uh at the same time and because brooke grew up here in george i Her mom and friends. we're connected to a non-profit down in george okay and uh they heard that potentially we would be looking to move to george and they offered us something as a pastoral couple um which yeah we felt that connection kind of immediately um we came down in the september took a look and and this was september 2017 it was quite quick though so first year of marriage Seeing it in September, resigned in January 2018. We moved to George and we started working for another nonprofit. And then part of that journey was, so we both worked there in 2018. Brooke converted her degree to teaching. And so 2019, York High School approached her and said, would you like to work for us? And York heard. Her mom had been a teacher there and deputy headmaster, but also Brooke had attended Yo-Kai. So it was quite a privilege for her to be there and a feather in the cap. She started there in 2019 teaching English and history and she's still there today loving every moment with the students. I continued at the nonprofit 2018-2019 we had our son 2020 and then 2021 in October well September I resigned and then I worked my last day in October 2021 at that nonprofit and then did some odd jobs and work and then yeah april 2022 uh launched empower officially and uh and i just understand so empower is it is an mpo and it's also also overseas um the other partner that you have they are from america yeah okay so did they sort of start the whole mpo organization or did you start your side and you guys sort of started together so it's always amazing how god works and people always say to me you know what's it like to start a non-profit and i always say you know the official side is quite easy you pay some guy an accountant and they register you which can take three four months and a couple of thousand bucks um or rand and uh but The launch of Empower has actually taken about 20 years of building relationships. And it's because of the relationships that have built up over that time, created a space where Empower would be ready. And so Justin and I co-founded Empower together. And it's kind of, we didn't know then, but in 2019, I had the privilege with a previous nonprofit to go to the US. And- We were supposed to stay with someone else. And two days before they said, you know what, you can't stay with us. Are you prepared to stay with another gentleman? Okay. And I was like, well, as long as they go to bed, then I'm good to go. And that gentleman turned out to be Justin. Okay. So I met Justin's family. And Justin's married to Kate. And they've got a daughter, Harper. And so spent. some time in their home, really got to know them well, from everything from American football to good food in the US to running together. And we just struck up a really good friendship around faith and family and business. And then, so that was 2019. We just remained in chatting because we both wanted to make a difference in people's lives. Yeah. we didn't know how that looked. Um, and then 2020 was COVID. Yeah. So we took kind of that difficult time of staying at home as an opportunity to dream. Yeah. And, uh, so Brooke and I, we used to lie on the bed and, you we had a seven month old baby that, you know, it was challenging to keep them in a house for that a period of time. um, So we would just lie on the bed and say, like, if we could do anything, what would it be? And both of us said, you know what, we both love Jesus and we both love people. And then kind of, you know, you throw around ideas and you're like, okay, well, how do we show people that we love them? And one of the experiences that we had on missions trips was, and if anybody's been on a missions trip, maybe your experience is not like ours, but you kind of experience that like. you're pumped up, you're excited, you're like, yes, we're going to change the world, and we are God's chosen one to bring this impact. And you arrive there, and you're all pumped up, you prayed up, and then there's a missionary that lives there the whole year, the whole time, and kind of like, high five, here are my bags, thanks for looking after us, but we're going to go save all the people. and the missionary would often kind of just get overlooked. And you're kind of like, thanks for the room, but God's called us. And both of us, Brooke and I, we had that experience and that thought, you know, that we want to care for that missionary. Yeah. Because they are the ones that actually set up a base. They are the ones that carry the passion. They all year round in the good seasons, the bad seasons. And, um. So in that, in our communities, there are champions or heroes that are already doing things. And so often I think as business people, as entrepreneurs, we think we've got this idea. We've got to come in and bring it in. but there's so many people doing incredible things already yeah um so it was actually brooke's idea around that she was like i don't know if you know that american tv show i don't know what it's called but i think it's extreme home makeover and that kind of like the bus is there that bus the bus moves out the way and you know everybody's crying because it was this one bedroom house and i was like this three bedroom double story mansion like and they all volunteered to do it over the weekend you Yeah, that's pretty amazing how those people get together and help out. Exactly. And so we thought, you know, why can't we do that here in South Africa? Why can't we empower champions or heroes that are working for nonprofits already? Or they teach us in our schools that our kids go to. Or, you know, they started food kitchens out of their own and they don't know where the food is coming from. Or they're literally cutting wood down in a forest and letting the wood dry. Bye. And then making a fire from that wood to make food for the community. And so I'm obviously bouncing around, but taking that concept and saying, cool, our community would want to do something like that. And I think there are so many people in our world today that want to be involved with something. Yeah. It's that intangible. Yeah, that's really true. I think there's a lot of people that they seriously want to get involved and, you know, actually help out and make an impact. And I think that. nice thing that you're doing is you are you know you're looking at people and sort of figuring out you know what skills do you have getting together making an actual impact in a difference yeah and i think that's great because a lot of times you know there are people that are that actually really want to help yeah and so so i'm gonna what i want to ask you is in your working environment what would you say has been some of the most difficult times in your working career and what did you do to sort of overcame that's that's situation yeah good question i think just in conclusion to the last topic and sorry i wonder done a thing so brooke had the idea of empower the champion and justin and i were still talking okay and together because Justin's an entrepreneur was like hey why don't we do something for entrepreneurs and so in 2021 we registered at the end of 2021 we started to register a non-profit and we registered here and then we registered in the US so we co-founded this thing together and what we're doing here we're doing in the US so we're empowering entrepreneurs there we're empowering and champions and empowering the seed um so that just finishes up on that topic so sorry for getting distracted um but uh to answer your question now i think there's a multiple of levels on that um And I think different seasons have different challenges that make you think and experience things differently. So when I finished my studies, you know, you're passionate, you're 22, you think you can take on the world and you are God's gift to mankind kind of thing. And you're like, yes. And then working for a company, Glasgow, for eight years. And like I mentioned originally, you know. You're doing something for finances, but you kind of like... For me, I was like, this carries no eternal purpose. So that was like a massive frustration inside of me where it was like this, cool, I'm okay financially, but there must be more to life than this. And so obviously being there and realizing that sometimes part of the journey, like a Joseph, You know, you have this dream of your brothers are going to bow down and everybody's going to bow down and you're just going to be like, make this difference. But it took, I don't know the exact, but I think it's like 18 years from when he had the dream to when the dream actually happened. So I think those eight years for me particularly felt like, okay, God, you've stirred something in my heart, but I'm feeling frustrated and I want to do something. So when the church offered me something, it gave and rejuvenated that passion, that energy inside of me. So you would say. Yeah, that's sort of the light in the tunnel for you when making a decision from one working environment to a different. So I think that passion, one of the things was, and I'll digress, is When I was 21, 22, I thought there was going to be an opportunity to work in the church, and it didn't happen. And there was hurt inside of David, and I think it took David eight years to grow my character and who I was. And when I watched that Elevation DVD, and one of the things that's... stood out to me was and i got to a place that i said to god god i will love you and love people and serve people for the rest of my life even if i never get recognized by another person and i think when drunk drive to and it's a hard lesson to learn because i think more so in men we have this like we want to get recognized we want to you know not applauded and like held up but at least well done on your work And I think that's natural. But when I got to that place, God performed the miracle and it was like I got that shift. So you would actually say in the, let's call it perhaps a difficult time, in that difficult time, there was actually the time when God was actually busy molding you, building your character for something different. Yeah. And so perhaps, well, what would you say, because I think a lot of, especially young guys, if they want to make a change from one working environment to another, a lot of times it's, you know, let's say, circumstances or whether it is your finances that push you sometimes into a certain level yeah and especially in your case um what would you say gave you sort of the like yes this is what i wanted to do and like sort of you had this fixed decision of come what may this is what i'm going to do how did you get to that point was it circumstances or was it something that has really got stirring in your heart because i think the reason why it's important to talk about it is a lot of times we met make decisions on perhaps our circumstances, whether it's finances or we get desperate for something else and we make a, let's say, a quick decision and then we just realize, uh-oh, we're sort of in the same boat, in a sense. So would you say that drive in your heart, that hunger for something else, irrelevant of the outward standards, was that sort of the light in the tunnel for you to go to the next chapter? Yeah, challenging question, but a great one. And I think... So that shift from corporate to working for the church, I think it was seeing God's timing. Yeah. Because the church hadn't offered me something prior to that. And I almost came to that place where I'm giving this up. And even if I work for corporate for the rest of my life, I'm okay with that. Okay. and so I think that shift and a lot of the times in my personal experience is you've got to be aware of your surroundings and what's taking place it's still good to be aware and realizing that and probably one of the best illustrations that I can think of is like a trapeze artist at the circus You know, when they've got their swing so high up and the person swings on the one swing. But while this swing is happening, this swing already begins to move. Yeah. Okay. And only at timing can you let go of this one and grab the next one. That's pretty good. And I think so often we're on a swing. And if you... don't jump yeah it just stops because eventually momentum runs out um if you need to make a change or something but sometimes we do the other side we haven't waited for this one to start swinging so then we just let go and then we fly and then you we land on the safety net and then yeah but god you know this or you know i don't understand why that person didn't invest in me it's you know it's the best idea or this or that because like wait on me that timing i will bring yeah at the right opportunity so the one is the purpose inside of me um but two i mean And one of the things about Empower was I felt something stirring again. Okay. But there was also, we work for a great nonprofit, did some really amazing things, but there was also a financial burden. Yeah. And, you know, there's certain things that you can do as a bachelor. You can do even if it's just. you and your wife you can take almost larger risks yeah and you know if you go through a couple of bad months like both of you can understand or just yourself you don't mind eating bread and baked beans for a couple of months because to find your feet again yeah but when you become a father and you become responsible for others yeah that changes there's a place and i mean i don't have all the answers around it i can just be there's a A place for purpose. Yeah. There's also a place for responsibility. That's very good because it's such a fine line. Very, very fine line. And I think a lot of, especially myself, I missed it. You know, I was always like chasing the money or chasing the dream or whatever it is. Then when you become a father and you, you know, someone actually stays with you, then you realize, oh, you know, I've actually got to take responsibility for myself. I can't not pay school fees for three months, you know, or, you know, no formula. your child doesn't understand that and there's certain things i think we as individuals can take risks and we understand the costs but we've got to take responsibility of fathers as men you know is this our fight is this our family's fight and we've got to differentiate between that because sometimes we think it's our fight it's not you and we've actually got to make decisions that are not just for us but it's for our kids yeah and that's the the challenging so and that's why I said the swing starts to move. And so this other nonprofit was feeling, I've got to look after my two kids, and it doesn't matter how much purpose I have. If I can't pay our bills at the end of every month. And I knew God would provide. I knew God would make a way. But God's also given us wisdom. And so at that stage, the previous nonprofit said to me, you know, and this is funny how, and that's why I'm saying God brings pieces together, said, we can't pay you a greater salary. So this was the previous nonprofit. The previous one, yeah. So I said, okay. But then they said, but. we want you to be able to potentially earn more, but you would need to find your own funding. So almost like a missionary salary. So I said, okay, I don't know what that looks like. And I went to a financial advisor. and said, you know, how does this look on a bank statement if money is flowing into my account but I'm still getting a salary? How does a tax look on that? And the financial advisor said to me, the best advice I can give you is register a non-profit. Yeah, okay. And so Empower wasn't even on the mind. We didn't have a name. We didn't have anything. But from raising funds, which we actually never raised funds. As a mission, we resigned before then. But that triggered the registration. Yeah. And that triggered more conversations between Justin and I to say, well, if we've got this. why not put some meat on a skeleton? Yeah, absolutely. And then that's how I got birthed. And, you know, when I resigned, I thought that was the hardest conversation. and Dr. Sam Chand, he's a leadership guy in the US. He's written two books, Who's Moved Your Ladder and Who Holds Your Ladder. I can't remember which one's first, but he speaks about the influence of people, and he says, like, if you're painting a wall and you climb up a ladder, you can only paint that far because the ladder holds you in a space. And either you can climb down the ladder every time and then you move the ladder and you climb up. Or you can have someone that's holding your ladder. And they shift your ladder for you. And you can do. And the second book, he speaks about this very thing. He was working as a president of a university. And he felt a shift in him. So he resigned. And they came back and they counted, offered. And they were like, we'll raise this. He'll do all this. And he kind of said, thank you. I'll still help. I'll still find the right people for you. But I feel that this is where I need to go. Yeah. And again, I was like, God, I don't understand why I'm reading this book. It's about keeping doors open. And when I resigned, about a week later, the CEOs of the previous nonprofit came to me and said, we just want to let you know that we'll keep your position open for you. for six months for you okay that's interesting yeah so if you feel yeah i want to come back we want you to come back and how did you was it like was it confusing for you i was like okay god is this a uh you know yeah what's it abraham putting isaac on the on the altar yeah was i supposed to put it on the altar or now must i pick up you I was off the altar again. And so I thought, okay. And I went to the pastors of our church that I attend, and I'm accountable to them, so I shared the process with them and the thoughts. And funnily enough, they also came back to me and said, you know would you want to work for us and i was like okay what is happening yeah okay and uh And then Empower was there. We had just registered. We were still waiting for like a PBO status. And Empower was getting a thousand rand a month in from a mate of mine in Cape Town, which I'm grateful for that he was like, you know what, David, I know you and we'll back you. And I'm grateful for that mate. And we're still really good mates. And just the journey that he's come on. and that trust but again how do you make a decision out of that yeah because it must have felt weird for you because you want to move forward in a sense and now all these other options come back to play and financially and from a security point of view coming back to being a dad what's the best decision? How's making a thousand a month? We can't live in South Africa on a thousand a month. We can't, ourselves can't live, let alone a family of four. And Brooke and I chatted and I said, babe, I don't know a hundred percent, but I got two words, peace and trust. And I said, like, if we don't engage this now. we'll never know and maybe at 65 70 we might look back and think why didn't we yeah and uh we had just formed our board and one of the factors was i was like through relationships if you and they know me pretty well so i think if we did say not right now there would have been understanding but i don't know if we would have ever revisited in power okay and um because we had the board i said let's go with this um And we started and yeah, crazy. Yeah. My daughter went into hospital in the March of 2022. They were still in COVID. So after COVID, she was, yeah, she was seven months old then. So it was about a year and a half, two years after COVID. Yeah. And I was in this transition of handing over the business to focus on Empower, which was a stressful time and yeah a guy kind of made me a basic offer which would keep me going for march um and i said it's cool i'll take that yeah but it provided a platform where i could spend every day in a hospital with my daughter and be there for her as a father yeah and i could be there as a family knowing that at least that month we sorted yeah and uh i remember in the hospital i texted justin and I texted our board then. I said, I don't know what this is going to look like, but April 2022, I'm going full time. Okay, so then you told them. And we've never looked back, and God's provided. That's really amazing. So in that, so to answer your question, I think different seasons carry different struggles for us that we need to consistently come back to God, say, God, what's happening in this season? And my feeling is, Am I feeling frustrated with my purpose? Am I feeling frustrated with finances? Or whatever it is. But I really believe in my faith that... If God's closing one door, He will open another. But are we aware of the doors that are around us? Are we aware of the things that are taking place around us? And it might look different. It might be completely outside the box of what we thought, this is what my life's going to look like. That's okay. Are we willing to step out? And those are the two words, peace and trust. Both in a boat, both on the water. Peace. the disciples are on the boat, the waves are crashing in. And then they realized, hey, Jesus is on the boat. Let's wake him up. Jesus gets up. I don't care whether your theology says it was daytime, whether there was... the water was only this deep, whatever it was. I'm like you had 12 grown men that were experienced fishermen that were scared, scared of dying. And Jesus got up and he was like, waves be still, storm quiet down. And there was absolute peace. And I took something out of that, that in life there will always be storms. Yeah, absolutely. But do we know that Jesus is on the boat with us? and then trust was again the disciples on the boat and they see jesus coming and peter was the only one that said jesus if that's you tell me to come yeah and jesus said come yeah how much trust is there no one's walked on water before to step out of a boat out of your comfort zone which you know, you've experienced, you understand, into an unknown, unsafe environment on the word of someone else. Yeah. Absolute trust. And I mean, that's a huge topic. I mean, making career decisions is massive. It becomes such a fine line, you know, and what to do, what not to do. And I think specifically in your situation, you know, in a sense, you were like a Peter getting out of the comfort, you know, zone, the boat, and getting onto the water. And then even though you still doubt a little bit, drowning but the the beautiful part of the picture is christ still came and he says hey listen okay you know and they both walked back to the boat and they both walked back to their boats yeah because i don't think jesus was like okay peter useful i'm holding your hand but like i'll walk on the water but useful yeah you do keep swimming no yes it's really amazing so tell me a little bit more and uh what i want to dive into is so i want to talk to you a little bit about finances and family i think we can perhaps uh end off with that so in your personal finance in your own career how do you manage your personal finances well let's say in your marriage how do you manage your personal finances with your family and if there are any conflicts how do you overcome conflicts anything like that and do you guys have sort of a strategy how you manage your finances you yeah um big topic it is it's a massive topic but i think it's a very real one yeah and i think i mean you've mentioned before as well as under like money's the number one topic in the new testament yeah maybe second i can't remember the exact stats you would know better but jesus spoke about it a lot yet i think we so often like shy away from that you but it is something personal confession time. So when we got married, we had that budget between Brooke and I, and like we mapped it out and we stuck to it. And we did really well with it until probably until we had Riley. And then it kind of like. every man for himself over here um as long as we're paying our bills and you know we're saving a little bit um that's where we're at but you know in the last two three weeks it's one of the things like i know i need to have that conversation with brooke again and say let's what are we earning and uh where's our budget where is our money going we have a a basic understanding yeah but i think it's so good to have that detail-oriented aspect of it um and i'm not a detailed person so i need to work on that but i think you also mentioned their apps out there that can they link to banking and they help track because i think one of our things that we've slipped into and i don't know how we're going to overcome this or have a conversation about um is you know when we catch the kids from school they're like ah let's just get a treat and you know i've really been thinking about it and you might need to stop at the shop and get bread or milk or something which is a necessity but i think where our budgets slip away from us is not in the large amounts yeah it's in the smaller day-to-day yeah and you know when i work out and i mean they might get a chocolate every second day or whatever. But for two kids, that's like 20 Rand every second day. Yeah. Quickly add up. Which adds up. It adds up on, oh, we're just going to this meeting. Let's get a cup of coffee. Cup of coffee is 40 Rand now. Yeah. So all of a sudden you begin to realize. we're tight at the end of the month. How do we work this? And you can't track it. Yeah, it's very difficult. But if you've got an app or something's tracking, you begin to realize, we probably spent two grand this month on things we didn't need to. Yeah. And then the conflict comes on the other side because we need to earn more because we're not getting to this and that. But then it's... where's our responsibility? Yes, we might need to earn more and I think it's healthy to have that growth. Yeah, yeah. But on the flip side, with what God's given us, are we good stewards of that? Yeah, I think that's the key of it. Can we give account for that? and I think if we're good stewards, I mean, what does the Bible say again? If we're faithful with the little, He can entrust us with the little. And I think it's those 20 rands, those 40 rands, that it's just quickly, we're just in the shops, we're just adding this on. and if you do that once a week or whatever, it's not a big deal, and we should be doing that for our families and for our kids and for our wives or husbands. But when it's just... every day or every second day i think we need to be wise on that yeah that's true it's definitely like the smaller details can really make impact and like you said if you don't have control over those small little things it can really catch you yeah a lot of times even i myself still i use some apps that i use and i try to budget but still sometimes i overspend a little bit here perhaps a little bit there or you don't load it or you like yeah yeah but in a sense if you can just you know just start and and just practice a little bit and slowly but surely you'll get better at it and then it becomes a little bit better if you start to manage the smaller things like one thing for me is i really realize especially with food you know the rent is getting weaker your purchasing power gets weaker so uh you've got to be so wise with your finances and it's such a big topic especially in the christian community and the culture yeah I mean, Christ says to us, he says that the worldly people are smarter than my own children. And he says, go and learn from them. Sure. And that was big for me. Then I realized, you know, okay, Christ is trying to tell us something. Yeah. So that's why I myself, I learned from a lot of people on basics, how to budget, how to save, and then slowly but surely start to invest. Yeah. That's also a great topic. I think we can dive in forever. But yeah, I mean, I agree. Just keeping it basic, keeping it simple. One thing that's definitely helped me is if you struggle, which I do sometimes, and what I do is if I see I still overspend here in a certain area, then I actually withdraw cash and put it in an envelope. Awesome. That literally, because if it's up, it's up. Yeah. But I don't do it in everything because then it's like fees and all those things. But in general, that helps a lot sometimes. But yeah. I think, like to tie in with that, I think if we want to see growth, in anything it takes time effort and energy discipline yeah very much so people who want to get a six-pack and look buff at the gym it doesn't happen overnight and our society pushes us into you know it's a quick fix it's got to happen today tomorrow yeah um but i think it's the basic habits that you instill and a friend of ours that actually shared one of your courses said a one-liner that's stuck out to me and uh hopefully i can quote it right but they were saying that um you things are difficult until they become a habit. And that's true in anything. You know, if you're a runner, it's difficult to get out every day or every second day until it becomes a habit. Or to read a book once a month, to budget. It's difficult to tighten the belt and be like, we're not spending on that or come on, you know, we had a thousand million budgeted for that, but... You know, it's an extra 200 bucks. Let's just... Yeah. But if we... build those patterns or habits in i believe that when we look back in a year three years five years ten years we're going to be like yeah correct and i mean it's a lot of people uh you hear it a lot where people say you know old habits die hard so it's so true because you've got to be careful what type of habits you start a friend of mine the other day said also a very good topic he says an easy life is hard but a hard life is easy i was like that was very interesting Sure. That sort of like struck me because I realized what he was saying is actually very, very accurate and very true. Yeah. Anything that you're going to start with is going to be difficult. Yeah. Anything that's extremely difficult, it's going to be tough. But eventually, down the line, it's going to be easy. Yeah. But if you just kick back and say, you know, it's going to be fine. It'll sort out itself. Then you've got to be aware of that mindset because then it can become difficult. Yes, it's easy now to say, oh, it will be okay. But down the line, you're going to realize. you know, you're at a crossroad and you're going to have to take responsibility because those actions are going to lead to, you know, either left or right. So that struck me. You said that to me. An easy life is hard and a hard life is easy. And it's like you said, going to the gym. That's hard. It's difficult. It's tough. Particularly in Georgia in winter, like it's raining, it's cold, it's dark. All those things are tough, but eventually it's going to be an easy life for you. You're going to be strong. You're going to be mobile. You're going to feel healthy. You're going to look healthy. and that was that was really something that stood with me for a while yeah so yeah that's really really good but perhaps to end off i think let's go for family and tell me a little bit about choosing a partner and what would you say is what gave you the peace of choosing brooke would you say something especially when we're young just it looks yeah especially when we're young you know you you fall in love yeah you all the goosebumps etc but then you realize down the line hey wait a minute there's more to this than just that falling in love is great staying in love is great but it's like solomon says you know beauty fades away yeah it's not physical beauty but in a sense it is but it's also the the let's call it the honeymoon phase, like everyone calls it, that can go away. And then the raw, real stuff happens. So what would you say from your perspective in choosing a partner? What would you say for any youngster or what to look for in someone? Is it good to know yourself? Obviously, you've got to know what you like, what your reasons in a partner. And then from there on, how do you know how to choose your partner? Yeah, all your questions are so in-depth and multi-layered. But one, I think you answered yourself there in you've got to know yourself. Do you as Zander or I as David understand David and who I am in Christ and the purpose that I believe I'm called to? So not always where you begin, but where you want to end up. And so I think self-awareness is such a critical thing in our lives. lives today because all of us have blind spots all of us we can see certain things about ourselves but there's so many things that we don't see so to get a great group of people around us that are speaking into our lives one to understand ourselves yeah you would say that makes a big difference so that's the foundation okay yeah because if you don't understand yourself my mom used to always say you know two halves don't make a whole in marriage two whole make a whole marriage. So if you're looking for something in a spouse because you lack in a certain area. Yeah, you're looking for the wrong things. You're always going to try and hold on to that thing and hold that person responsible for that in your marriage. Which they're actually not responsible for that. I'm just saying, let's say depression. You can't look at your spouse and put full responsibility on your spouse to make you joyful and happy all the time. Come on. Yes, they can bring that in, but it's still your responsibility to be a whole person for your spouse. So I think to understand yourself and to work on yourself to become whole. Then there was a podcast that I listened to, and it was quite a while ago that I listened to it, but it was by a guy called Carl Lentz, and his sermon was called That Girl is Poison. And he spoke about Samson and Delilah. And one of the biggest things that stood out to me, he said, you know what, and kind of it ties in with step one, if we could say, and this is step two. He said, once you understand your purpose, When you're calling in God, the best thing for you to do as a young person is to put your head down and run after your calling. Yeah. Run, run, run, six months to a year. Then after six months to a year, he says, still run, but lift your head up, look to the left, look to the right. Who is running with you? Then he says, take notice, then put your head down again, run off to your calling. Six months to another year. Lift up your head. Some people would have fallen away, but who's still running with you? And he said, out of those people running in the same direction as you, you're probably going to end up marrying one of those people. That's interesting, yeah. Because you're both chasing God's purpose. and calling over your life. So it means you're aiming in the right direction. Because he then went on to say, so many of us... I'm just saying, we get saved, we're passionate about church, and we love Jesus, and, yeah, we want to become a business person. So we do that. And then we turn 30, and then we're like, I'm not married. I need to find someone. So we slowed down on our business adventures. They're still together. We're still making. money and whatever. And then we go find someone. So instead of running our race, we deviate. And we might find another Christian person in church because everybody tells us you've got to find someone in church, which is great, and we need to. But then we start dating, and that person says, well, you know, I also love Jesus, but I want to become a missionary. But like you say, you fall in love, you get married, it's great. But then you go back to business because you've caught your wife. She's saying, but you promised we were going to go to the missions field. So I'm making it like very Christian. So often we think you've got to be unequally yoked, Christian, non-Christian. But I'm saying both could love Jesus, still understanding your purpose. helps because one person might love Jesus in a way and do dynamically but still work and volunteer their time another person could feel called to full-time ministry it's different when I say call to full-time ministry, we're all in full-time ministry, but working at a church, paid by a church, that kind of full-time ministry. So that's what I'm saying, to come back, one, understand yourself, purpose, calling by God. Two, find someone that's in the same direction as you. And then three, which we're learning now. we've been married for seven years and it's been fantastic but we've got to keep on working yeah on our marriage and still keep on finding date nights and loving each other and um because i think we can become complacent. Yeah. And, oh, you know, it's the kids and you know as well that particularly when you've got babies and young kids. Especially, yeah. It takes a lot of time. Yeah. And then you're tired. And then you're like, babe, you know, I know we said we would go out for dinner now, but can't we just chill at home and watch Netflix or whatever? And then that's okay to do once or twice. But then you begin to realize two, three years down the line. we haven't gone on any dates and i mean we laugh but it's it could happen that quickly no it's very true i mean memories also spoke about it a few weeks ago like it's we underestimate the you have to work on marriage and i didn't really i was like okay you know i heard when people said it but i didn't really realize it actually until when you're married a few years you really gotta make effort you gotta make effort for a date night you gotta make effort to communicate how was your day etc those things you know you really got to work on sort of like the other part that you said you know you got to take responsibility yeah now that you have a responsibility as a man as a wife you got to make it work you got to um you cannot ignore it yeah and that's where i think i myself i fall into that let's say it's a trap in a sense we are like okay now i'm married the business is going well now i can relax that's a dangerous place to be you very dangerous because i've quickly realized like oh no no i can't go with this mindset or whatever it is yeah and so it's such a good thing to talk about and communication at the end of the day even if it's uncomfortable even if you don't feel like it's the right time or the right mood just sit down if you can and communicate that's all and then slowly but surely you'll build and the other thing i'll also which is great is that don't be shy to share the deepest thing that bothers you or that excite you whatever it is yeah just get it out yeah it's like scripture says which is very beautiful like open rebuke is better than hidden love yeah true spoken about donald also in the previous conversation and it's just rock solid every time when something really bothers you you know instead of leaving in there yeah get it out try your best obviously to pick the right time yeah you can but just talk talk talk so when you got kids it's the right time it was there ever a right time you kind of just put it especially when take the gap yeah It can become very challenging. But yeah, David, thanks so much for joining. I really had a good conversation. And if there's a next one, I'm very excited for this. But yeah, thanks for coming out. And it was a great pleasure to have you today. Cool. Thank you. And I'm excited for this and the impact that it's going to have on people.