[Music] uh so good evening everyone welcome to today's SP speaker session glad to have all of you here today's event is of course hosted by the Indian foreign policy project which is ifbp in collaboration with Orca which is the organization for research on China and Asia I am Jes fanat the founder and the interim chair of ifb and part of our mandate um is to deepen Civic engagement um in South Asian Affairs as well as ir and this series is part of our uh effort to connect with young researchers young leaders diplomats uh to our student Community from across India um so a couple of guidelines before we start this is going to be an interactive session so we will be having an Q&A at the end um so we obviously value diversity in perspectives so please be respectful and be open to viewpoints throughout this discussion we are also going to be recording this event uh which will be shared on our platforms along with the transcript uh you obviously welcome to add in your thoughts and questions in the chat box whenever you feel and use the raise hand feature during the audience discussion round and stay muted unless recognized thank you for your cooperation um so today's event is titled expression identity and politics understanding the queerness the non-conformity in the PRC it is based on an article series written by the speaker for Orca our speaker today is of course Miss aaya Roy um Miss Roy is a researcher specializing in gender and politics in China she holds a master's degree in political science with a specialization in IR from the Department of ir at jadf University Kolkata she has taken on a variety of positions before previously she served as the research associate and the chief operations officer at Ora in New Delhi uh her research areas also include non-traditional security studies particularly focusing on gender and sexuality as well as society and culture in China and East as um thank you so much M for joining us and um thank you for participating in this discussion uh good evening everybody good evening aites thank you for that introduction um I'm very happy to be here and I want to uh extend my gratitude to ifpp and orca for this incredible opportunity to you know present my research on the lgbtq plus community in China thank you for being here again um we'll start with a brief note on the topic um so identity and rights of course have always been regarded as the core of ir and the core of Human Rights declaration as a whole however a significant chunk of communities around the globe continue to be repressed continue to be regarded as something different uh apart from society and when whenever they do not conform to obviously pre-establish gender and sexual identities especially in the Asian context so today we will discuss the history of queerness in China and chea and pings and extension the prc's policies International pressures and its corresponding reforms and the extent of conformity in the modern Chinese State we'll also be briefly discussed the importance of the inclusion of the lgbtq community in the Chinese political economy and the incentives therein um so miss Roy let's start right like very light what Drew you to write this series and research on lgbtq plus rights in China uh so when I was working at Orca I had init uh during I think the 20th party Congress we started writing about you know how Elite politics sort of works in the Chinese context and uh I wanted to focus on women especially uh and you know how women are representated in Chinese politics and I think from uh having done research on women and uh feminism in China it sort of was a very natural transition towards you know understanding how uh the lgbtq plus Community also fed in the Chinese context since and it was especially interesting to me because it is such a different uh Society uh and to be considered something that is not the norm in a society like China was very interesting for me to you know sort of get into yeah all right that was quite an interesting take to a good huge article series which I've obviously all of us at IB have already read about it and quite interesting to find um so we'll start with the first segment which is context and the history um I'll just stop sharing perhaps and um can you tell us a little bit more about the historical context of qu in China uh what has been the major events uh whether this is a new occurrence or has is this community rooted in Chinese culture uh sure uh what I can do is I can also share my screen because I have a presentation ready for it just let me know if you're able to uh view it okay one second uh can you view it visible all right perfect great uh so you know before uh so let me just give you some context about the queer community in China so it is the largest lgbtq plus Community globally uh but you know despite this significant demographic uh the journey towards you know um equality uh recognition you know and uh sort of acceptance has been uh fraught with challenges largely sort of influenced by you know Dee rooted cultural um social and political factors so to understand the current state of uh you know lgbtq plus rights in China it is essential to address a common misconception that homosexuality is inherently um against traditional Chinese culture um you know uh historically Chinese culture has displayed a certain level of Tolerance towards um same-sex relationships it it's not it wasn't um sort of celebrated was still taboo but there was some sort of uh tolerance towards it and it wasn't demonized as such and you know this was recorded in ancient texts and historical accounts so it wasn't until uh 1740 during the Ching Dynasty that homosexuality was decreed illegal for the first time in Chinese history so this was also the period when uh Confucianism you know with its emphasis on filial py um social harmony and the centrality of the family unit became sort of Sanctified and began to play a pivotal role in shaping societal attitudes towards um lgbtq plus individuals so you know the societal pressure to marry produce a uh uphold family honor compounded by you know sort of State policy es can often clash with principles of inclusivity sort of uh you know which are desired by queer individuals which can lead to uh you know internal conflicts and societal tensions so even after the establishment of the PRC you know the People's Republic of China as we know today uh queer people were targeted and charged with uh hooliganism during the cultural revolution so you know the uh I think it was the 19 80s was when queer issues began to be more uh openly talked about or talked about at all and it was the beginning of uh sort of gradual liberalization in China you know both economically and socially as well it was the uh reform and opening up era so uh even though this was happening uh in the 1980s it wasn't until the N uh I think 1997 that homosexuality was decriminalized which was a significant yet a very quiet uh you know milestone in the history of lgbtq plus rights in China so the 1990s was you know when uh one witnessed the emergence of Grassroots lgbtq plus organizations which you know played a very crucial role in advocating for the rights and recognition of the community and a huge Catalyst in this was I uh the fourth un World Conference on women held in ping in 1995 which led to the proliferation of you know feminist and queer organizations simultaneously almost so these organizations you know operate in a very challenging environment which I'll get to later in you know more depth but while they have grown in visibility and uh influence over the years they are still uh facing you know challenges due to uh the state scrutiny that is there in China legal constraints and so title Prejudice yeah all right thank you so much um interestingly since you said that it's not against tradition to be queer or be part being part of the albic community that's not what the CCP kind of projects uh in the media as well do you think the ccp's assertion that um this is a western phenomena is correct so I mean the thing with the CPC and the uh and you know Xi Jinping himself by extension his policies is the fact that Confucian values that sort of emphasize social control are entrenched in the policies of the CPC uh and Xi Jinping so uh you know even if they want to portray it as a western uh import it isn't necessarily one can argue that it is not necessarily a western import that was happening more so it could be argued that it was a western import to criminalize homosexuality you know so there is definitely uh an influence of how they want to um sort of put put traditional Chinese culture and traditional Chinese Norms on one end and homosexuality or you know different sort of sexual orientations and gender identities on the other hand but it doesn't necessarily have to be so thank you um and since these laws which criminalized homosexuality and current policies in general will also have an effect on General citizenship views on how people in China View uh this community as well uh since this community is rooted in traditional Chinese culture do you think there has been a larger shift towards alienating this uh community at large or is this a kind of a graph of baby kind of interaction so I would say that definitely it is much more challenging to uh you know be uh a part of the queer community in a closed Society because uh not many people are as educated about things that they are not necessarily uh familiar with so it can be a very unfamiliar and a very um difficult part for them to understand and accept that these kind of um you know differing sexual orientations differing gender identities can exist so while there has been you know a much greater acceptance now because of the work of you know the queer organizations they have worked to increase visibility and influence about quer issues on the mainstream it's still it's still not uh you know it's still not the most uh how do I explain it it's still not very uh accepted I would would say who sort of make homosexuality and the family which I could argue is you know one of the biggest impediments to queer discourse in CH because most most of family honor or sort of uh you know societal Norm comes from the fact that you want to have a lineage and you want to have children and to go against that feels like you know sort of Dishonor so while there has there has been you know discrimination ostracization you know harassment uh you know based on sexual and gender identities I wouldn't go as far as to say that all of it is like a black box there is a gr area where people especially in the urban centers are much more open and are much more likely to not really care to base their opinions on somebody's sexual identity or gender identity so it it's a long way to go but the fact that they are the fact that uh you know gay people exist in China itself is activism in my view yeah so um of course you talked about an major International conferences and the International Community as a whole affecting this kind of movement in China uh especially with liberalization of the Chinese economy and opening up of well people and communities across the globe as well um do you feel how important do you feel the International Community uh has played a role in this uh event uh M and large in China uh so one second let me just share my screen with you yeah so uh one second yeah so as I mentioned it the 1990s was when uh you know Grassroots lgbtq organization really took off and year the uh in the 1990s was when the international gay movement had a very notable but I would say a limited impact on lgbtq plus rights in China so like like I mentioned before the World Conference on women was you know brought International attention was very pivotal in sort of getting all that attention to gender and sexual rights you know encouraging local activists to adopt Global strategies for advocacy you know not only that uh they also played a role in raising awareness establishing transnational networks you know as as well as providing Financial backing but you know uh also you know the outbreak of the HIV aids crisis in China you know led to the lgbtq plus Community receiving further attention but uh you know this uh initial movement of uh you know queer identity and consolidation of the movement in China was dominated by gay men who are known as the tongi and it overshadow the experiences of queer women or Lala women and other marginalized communities so as a result what happened was the laa movement began to operate in the periphery uh you know with considerably less visibility and influence so even the financial backing that uh you know the queer community did receive from the international movement was mainly focused on much more uh Western aspects and much more male dominated so so it was very important for also the advocacy reforms or efforts that was you know pushed by the West were very Western in nature so it it is important to you know sort of understand this tongala dichotomy within the lgbtq plus movement in China because it reflects the sort of divide you know between the experiences and priorities of gay men who were mostly you know Urban affluent uh Han Chinese and on the one hand and you know queer women bisexuals transgenders gender non-conforming individuals on the other so it is important to note this because it has a huge influence on the trajectory of lgbtq plus activism that we see today in China you know because it has led to some tensions and challenges in creating a much more unified queer movement in China so when we also talk about sort of Western Notions like say Pride you know there pride has taken place although rarely it has taken place in China from you know backing of like you know Western consulates in China and you know from International organizations but uh pride and queer discourse itself is largely Western Centric so there are you know cultural and institutional barriers in China which uh impede the localization of uh you know Global queer discourse and as such um so what happens is that you know these Western Centric approaches uh to advocacy May clash with uh what the locals would prioritize instead so there's also been debates suring whether you know the term lgbtq plus uh you know and Global queer practice could even be applied appropriately you know to the queer movement in China so there is a growing need you know for a much more inclusive approach both in China and globally you know to uh amplify diverse intersections of gender sexuality ethnicity uh class you know within the lgbtq plus Spectrum in China itself but while uh you know the western style Pride events are rare in the mainland like I mentioned there is a very uh there is a growing sense of Pride within the local Community okay Pride that is very specific to the Chinese context you know which is reflected in the increasing visibility of queer culture especially in urban areas so I would say uh that you know the international uh queer movement has definitely uh helped uh the uh queer movement in China proliferate it it's it's uh its influence can't be overstated yeah so of course uh with these kind of restrictions already in Chinese media in place there is difficulty of any kind of group to advocate for any kind of issue uh for example we when we live in a democracy it's much easier to raise up to issues or advocate for certain issues how have the queer community in China sort of started off their movement starting from 1990 to today and using that kind of digital space uh for the same as well so uh when you look at you uh say these organizations and especially queer organizations and how they operate they don't have much uh legal protection or government backing so you know given that the state is sort of overly conscious of not promoting anything that is openly lgbtq plus uh so there are almost no NOS dedicated to lgbtq plus advocacy uh that are formally registered with local civil Affairs bureaus in China so as such what lgbtq groups have to do is that they have to operate in a gray area and they have to navigate sort of a fine line between you know State tolerance and repression so it's a very precarious and Lial position because it requires uh activists to be strategic and creative and often focus on lowkey uh Grassroots efforts rather than large scale public demonstrations so you know by employing uh these sort of creative means they have made use of digital spaces in media like you mentioned and which have become essential tools for lgbtq plus advocacy in uh contemporary China so these you know platforms allow activists to sort of um circumvent traditional media censorship and connect with a broad audience uh you know raising awareness uh fostering a sense of community however uh while Al while sort of engaging in online discourse uh queer individuals also have to be very cautious of not threatening the party States Authority because I would also argue that um you know along with censorship and uh social change you know economic interests are also uh they also have a huge role to play in influencing queer expression and activism online so there's uh so just be the state not only um sort of sensors traditional media but digital media as well so the it basically exercises tight control over Collective expression um in both traditional and digital media which is predominantly state-owned as well so you know content related to say lgbtq plus issues is often uh suppressed for example in 2021 you know the government began to crack down on the uh presence of men and effeminate television so even sorship in order to maintain a cooperative and reciprocal relationship with political authorities so um you know um in 2023 Chinese sensors will suddenly shut down some public WeChat accounts which specifically those that focused on feminist and lgbtq plus issues which also highlights how you know despite the uh potential the empowering potential of social media its Effectiveness is contingent on uh you know the shifts in government policy the shifts in um platform regulations Tech techological accessibility so there are these um sort of uh things that you know the queer Community has to be aware of and very cautious of when they are um sort of engaging in queer discourse online thank you these were a lot of uh interesting points that we want to discuss let's start off with understanding the kind of rights that queer people do have in China at the moment uh what are the rights guaranteed by the state and what are the Bas like loopholes that they have been using or the kind of gray areas that are still being uh needs to be addressed by policy makers right so um China's Uh current Penal Code does not uh contain any explicit prohibition of homosexuality um and in 2001 homosexuality was also removed from the official list of disorders um but uh in the same but in the same way uh same-sex marriage is you know remains unrecognized in China so there is a lack of sort of legal recognition for same-sex couples uh you know which denies them essential rights benefits such as uh inheritance rights you know uh Healthcare decision making Social Security benefits benefits which uh a normal heterosexual couple would receive so it is also important to sort of note that most of the existing anti-discrimination laws in China tend to focus only on male homosexuality and have historically had a very narrow focus on gender so women sexuality are barely talked about possibly even repressed because uh you know a significant portion not just women but also you know transgender people questioning people non-conforming people none of their issues are really discussed which further exacerbates uh you know the discrimination and social stigma and the harassment that they face because if nobody really talks about it nobody really knows what is actually happening so you know there's this vulnerability of the lgbtq plus Community which is also heightened due to a lack of uh you know legal protection benefits comprehensive social and they often to healthcare housing um other essential services so it is comp and this is also compounded by societal marginalization that they face it's not just a a biological it's not just a biological thing it's more about how they are seen as perverse because of um you know most of the time they're either migrants or rural or uh poor and don't and and don't have the resources that they need to educate themselves or others around them so but there are you know however some limited rights provided for queer people in China you know same-sex uh couples have been granted some um limited Medical Care and Property Management rights under the legal guardianship system and queer people have the right to gender reassignment surgery uh the ability to change one's gender on official documents however these rights are often sort of accompanied by very strict regulations and a lot of like bureaucratic hurdles that might make you know uh it difficult to access these sort of um rights so it is it is a very sort of difficult and ambiguous situation where uh everybody knows that they exist and homosexuality exists but nobody really wants to talk about it and just rather evade that entire um sort of uh evade that entire community and not get into a direct confrontation with it so uh when you also look at say the workplace you know there are significant policy gaps uh that impacts the retention of domestic talent and you know domestic labor Supply in China so while China has an employment uh you know promotion law which bans discrimination based on gender race uh religion um ethnicity it does not explicitly you know prohibit discrimination against sexual minorities so the absence of these explicit anti-discrimination protections and equal opportunities in a majority of uh you know professional settings means that queer employees often face um very hostile work environments uh leading to lower job satisfaction um lower productivity levels and much higher turnover rates and as a result what happens is there has been a trend of migration so a lot of qu queer individuals will migrate to countries which are much more welcoming of their sexual identity and their gender can also be seen you know as a negative thing for China because it essentially means there is a brain drain in in uh China in the mainland and it's also about you know the geopolitics of how the Global Talent distribution is sort of uh you know in one sector because uh because uh queer people don't feel that they are accepted enough or can't lead the life that they want so there there are a lot of implication and consequences that happen due to uh queer people not having the rights or you know that they deserve um have there perhaps been major um in instances in China's Judiciary like kind of uh is there even a system of Judiciary in place that tackles these kind of issues any major cases perhaps from there as well so uh there have been judicial cases uh you know people uh taking uh taking their cases to the courts trying to uh get the courts to give them the benefits that they seek so for instance there was a case when a man had to go through uh gender reassignment uh surgery and uh they were um fired from their job because of the leave that they had to take so once they moved the court for it they were granted uh you know compensation for uh being fired but that is a very rare case and it's also based on like the province that you're in so it's not it's not a all encompassing view of China you know uh there was a very famous case where um this uh lady tuwai you know sort of sued the um he she sued the uh min of Education because uh uh because they were carrying homophobic textbooks in universities and she raised these and she sued the ministry a couple of times and she kept getting uh rejected every single time but what happens on the flip side is that uh it more than them seeking say you know legal reforms and advocating for legal rights it has also led to much more visibility and discussion about uh you know how these rights are absent for queer individuals a lot of uh heteronormative sort of individuals don't even realize that there are rights that they have taken for granted that is not available to a person just based on their sexual identity or their gender identity so you know there have been lots of uh uh there have been a lot of uh same-sex marriages that have taken place in China they aren't marriages in the legal sense more so in a very symbolic sense but there has been advocacy for uh you know uh legal reforms for same-sex Partnerships to be recognized for uh you know uh transgender rights there have uh there has always been a advocacy uh effort made for these legal reforms which also is a byproduct of the Western influence that they have of you know sort of changing the institutionalization and legalization of these rights so there have been uh efforts uh to move the courts and to uh get legal uh access to these rights but it it hasn't been the most uh it's not easy it's not easy it's going to take much longer and they can't afford to uh you know question the states Authority as such or come into direct confrontation with the states Authority because queer individuals do not want to seem like a threat to the state or the state's uh you know National interest or security or even its legitimacy what it wants for the state to do is recognize that they are not um you know against the state but uh and they're not an individualistic sort of a group but more of a collective which does belong in the PRC right um we also kind of see a kind um greater assertion of conservatism across China in uh she's um rule in the last decade can you tell us a little bit more about his specific policies and his role in the CPC sure uh sure so uh as I mentioned before uh you know confusion values they are the most like they are enmeshed and embedded in the CPC and XI jinping's policies so you know for instance if you uh look at she's common Prosperity initiative there has been a renewed focus on social stability and harmony you know often at the expense of individual rights and freedoms so the lgbtq plus Community like you mentioned you know perceived as and bracketed as a western import you know challenging these traditional Chinese Norms has faced increasing scrutiny and suppression under this initiative and the CPC also has adopted a three noose policy towards uh lgbtq plus issues which essentially is that you know there's no approval there's no disapproval and no promotion so this policy mainly sees itself manifest particularly within the areas of uh Health Care uh education media you know fur and which furthers uh uh further complicates advocacy efforts because Healthcare education and media are sort of the institutions where you where it is possible to change the narratives where it is possible to um you know uh change the institutionalization of it so this ambiguity and this ambiguous stance allows the state to you know maintain control over queer expression while avoiding uh you know direct confrontation with the community but uh this ambiguity also uh shows that the parties uh you know policy focus on uh maintaining social harmony and uh social stability often translates to a very low prioritization of issues related to um sexual orientation and gender identity which are you know sidelined or ignored leaving the community without the legal protections and recognitions they deserve so it has resulted in the CPC taking very contradictory stances on lgbtq plus issues so on the one hand you know China accepted uh five of the un uh human right council's recommendations on lgbtq plus rights in 2019 and on the other hand it has made efforts to systematically restrict the lgbtq plus Community you know like censorship and control over um Civic discourse are key tools used by the party state to manage any threat that it might deem uh inimical to its legitimacy you know as a result the CPC has resorted to you know Banning and censoring content like queer related content online you know uh forcefully closing queer organizations uh you know uh for instance like Shanghai Pride had to be closed down uh like it wasn't a very explicit um sort of demand from the state but it was implicit in the fact that it was getting difficult for Shanghai Pride to operate which is you know because because of say government coercion so it makes it more difficult for activists queer activist feminist activists to organize and mobilize uh you know support and solidarity openly without risking uh you know State intervention or apprehension uh so but on the other hand you can also see that compared to beijing's handling of Human Rights issues in Shang uh or Hong you know China's relative tolerance for lgbtq plus issues can be seen but uh you know this tolerance is contingent on like I mentioned before the community's ability to sort of remain um foundational and of you know the party's Authority yeah right so what are the Bas incentives for the uh for the president uh and the policy makers in large to include them make some inclusive laws especially referring to the political uh or economic incentives uh for the same as well so I mean uh the what what it's like a two-way street the uh you know the queer Community has to sort of make ping understand that you know their goals and their priorities for you know equality and inclusion don't uh go against the goals or the cpc's goals of you know social harmony and effective governance and you know it contributes more towards you know Shi jinping's dream of uh National Rejuvenation you know and the achievement of China's uh second Centennial goal of becoming you know a modern socialist country by 2049 so there are also you know economic advantages of you know lgbtq plus inclusion and uh you know um uh in the economy be because of the better the more labor and the more people you have the better it is for like macroeconomic development as well um the better it is for businesses to have uh employees who are productive the better it is for um not just businesses and and like employers but also for you know even um heterosexual or like non uh you know heterosexual or people who are not necessarily homosexual will also be more um interested I guess or more inclined to work for a company that or a business that um sort of promotes in inclusivity and diversity but also it depends on whe if the country feels that diversity is important enough or if the country feels that um you know inclusivity is a priority for them you know so while uh there are definitely uh you know benefits to uh getting the lgbtq community and you know utilizing their full potential because it is a huge uh consumer Market as well they uh so what H there has been sort of uh you know there has been a sort of understanding of Chinese businesses who have understood the potential of the economic advantages of inclusivity and uh sort of uh addressing the needs of queer individuals so uh you know um Chinese companies like uh puu meu uh they've all launched uh uh advertising campaigns you know a knowledging uh sort of samex couples uh and they have experienced very positive sort of business outcomes by adopting lgbtq plus inclusive policies so it it has it has definitely begun it has definitely started uh you know but uh there is still um way to go yeah right thank you so much uh moving towards the last section of this presentation uh we'll be discussing about Conformity right uh how has the lgbtq community in general like took on this issue of Conformity within this uh kind of lack of legal status uh and gray areas so um I mean there have been so when we talk about conformity uh I have to always like go back to the soci cultural uh sort of influences of Conformity that you find not just in society but in the state as well you know so there are like political and legal Conformity is definitely a significant barrier to uh lgbtq plus rights in China you know and the states emphasis on you know uh Conformity to Traditional Values um and social norms makes it very difficult for uh queer individuals to assert their rights without facing you know legal or social repercussions but even more importantly uh you know the since there are no comprehensive and explicit anti-discrimination laws that sort of protect individuals based on sexual orientation or um gender identity they don't have much uh recourse you know in the face of sort of Injustice so but all of this does boil down to the fact that you know uh social and cultural conformity is driven by Confucian values which also drives a lot of the political and legal Conformity that you find in contemporary China so you know um like I mentioned before you know it's uh it has an emphasis on FAL py on social harmony and you the centrality of the family unit so also like you know FAL py uh the duty towards the nation you know honoring the nation and seeing the nation progress and the emphasis on social um sort of stability and Harmony can manifest in a preference for Conformity and uh you know which essentially conflicts with the expression of lgbtq plus identities so these have uh you know implications like these Dynamics have implications which are very profound so what happens uh is that queer individuals in China face a lot of structural stigmas they face a lot of public stigmas they face a lot of self stigmas as well um they face prejudices and discrimination and the pressure to conform can also lead to uh internalized homophobia which makes sense self-acceptance and self-identity very hard to achieve and coming out particularly complex so coming out essentially is when you publicly come out with your sexual identity and your gender identity and uh you know it is especially challenging in China in Chinese Society due to you know the familiar responsibilities as well as the political risks that are involved you know they may be seen as the other you know and could lead to social isolation um strained relationships with friends and family and even disownment from their uh uh you know own families which you know they who might feel ashamed or Dishonored by such acts of you know coming out essentially and they could face um ostracism from not only their peers but also their colleagues and employers as well so as a consequence many lgbtq plus people you know may choose to conceal their identities to avoid such discrimination and you know to avoid such discrimination a trend that can be seen uh in response to the complex social cultural and uh you know political pressures of Conformity is that some lgbtq plus individuals will enter into sham marriages or uh formality marriages which are essentially uh heterosexual presenting relationships to fulfill familial and uh you know societal expectations while maintaining their true identity in private so when a straight woman marries a gay man unknowingly uh the woman is known as Toni and when a straight man marries a lesbian woman they are known as Tong Fu um and when a lesbian woman and a gay man marry each other in a you know a formality marriage a Cooperative marriage that marriage which is known as shingu so there there are trends of you know because they feel pressured into marriage into providing an air into uh you know continuing the family lineage they sometimes will have to get involved in these sham marriages which is very um which is very complex and very multifaced sort of an issue because uh a woman who unknowingly marries a gay man does not know about the fact that her husband is leading a a secret life essentially and um it's the same for you know a straight man who marries uh a a gay woman but there is also uh the notion of you know how women like lesbians could face um rape allegations or abuse because even if they do not want to be um you know even if they do not want to be in that marriage they still have to perform a duty towards their towards their husbands towards their families so it is it does get a m much more complicated also when you look at you know um how real estate is very important in um China and usually there's only only the husband's name on the lease so if so not only do women who like you know get married to gay men not have any property to their name you know uh it's always it's always a very sort of precarious precarious uh sort of um situation to be in yeah thank you so much I wish we could ask more questions to you but but I think we should move on towards the Q&A session um so anybody from the audience who wants to ask a question please raise your hand or type your question in the chat box and L that up uh yeah GES go ahead uh hi a great session first of all I think uh I was just curious to hear from you um in the sense of of hearing about what could probably the International Community at large do to make Nations like China be accountable towards the lgbtq community because the state in these nations is in ignorant or it doesn't acknowledge the community it does not say yes or no it rather delays the questions so what do you think the International Community can probably come together and do to probably build a consensus around quer issues because quer lives suffer regardless of where they are on the globe right so I think I would want to hear from you on that front thanks so um I mean I would I wouldn't overstate how much of an influence the international movement can have on policy or like legal reforms you know it is a closed society and it is they don't have a very vibrant um you know civil society which is able to sort of champion for their rights what the international sort of or The Wider Global uh queer movement can do is support um support queer individuals in China by helping them uh to make their own Frameworks of advocacy of uh how to sort of uh bring their qu bring their issues up with the state because while uh while it is difficult for the queer you it is difficult for the uh wider queer movement to also sort of um get in touch with the local queer movement because it's not always possible because of privacy issues because of you know the great firewall that there is in China it's not easy for them to uh be able to you know sort of access each other or even you know there is also a barrier like a language barrier that exists so what it what the international queer movement can do is Provide support by sort of helping them build uh you know transnational networks where they can help um help with the use of you know social media as well you know sort of uh amplify Chinese voices and amplify what Chinese uh queer individuals want because it might not be the same as what um The Wider accepted notion of queerness is there is a very specific uh queer commun uh queer understanding and there's a very specific um location of the queer SC course in China so what the International Community has to also do is uh you know expand its own understanding of Chinese Society itself yeah uh I hope that answer that question covers uh we move towards some of the questions the chat perhaps and then towards the people who are here um Navia has asked is um how can we build an atmosphere of inclusion regardless of our personal or religious views i' also add on to the question is like the comparative perspective as well right how like how do people in India basically um reach out or um see this kind of um repression of lgbtq Rights over in China I mean I wouldn't say it's easy but I definitely wouldn't say it's not possible I mean uh there are uh queer individuals online there are queer individuals in forums there the only difficulty is uh you know I mean the two neighbors don't really have the best relationship either we don't have we're not able to have uh you know WeChat accounts we can't really talk to them um over uh that easily but I would say that it isn't uh it isn't as hard as it might seem if we just sort of um delve into it a little bit deeper you know it isn't as difficult to understand that you know on the other side of the Border people are just like us and they're going through uh you know they're going through challenges that we sometimes can't even fathom because uh for them it's not about making uh you know public demonstrations of activism or it's not about uh you know how how to it's it's more about how to lead a life that they want to lead and when we talk about you know like you mention inclusion regard like regardless of whatever religious views you have that I think is like always going to be a work in progress that is something that you know we have to keep learning and unlearning uh whatever um preconceived notions or biases we might have you know trying to understand where the other party comes from trying to understand you know where we come from and you know trying to at the end of the day uh you know fight for the life that we all want to live yeah um if you have time we'll answer more questions Mah sure sure yeah all right um Rahul has asked a long question the gist of it is basically uh what is the status of identity expression and uh has this like these assertions of identity just being solely identity based or focusing on redistribution and social Equity perhaps so that's actually a really good question uh Rahul the thing is um there is definitely definitely it has uh you know there are demands for redistribution there are demands for you know uh I mean you could say that essentially to be a feminist group or a queer group you have to ask for you know institutional changes you have to ask for um structural changes you know so they definitely do ask for it but they're also very cautious of the fact that it isn't I mean they have to take very small incremental steps they can't be going around um sort of trying to ask extremely difficult questions because uh you know they they probably get repressed because they're asking questions that they shouldn't be asking so while there is obviously there is obviously uh you know they do want to have much more um as you said redistribution and sort of structural changes you know more gender mainstreaming and all the institutions that there are but it is uh it's much more about you know Finding their footing you know it's much more about trying to focus on education focus on Awareness on Outreach on building resilient networks you know and once you have a very solid foundation because if you're constantly getting attacked it's very hard to even survive so it is very difficult to ask such uh questions when you're not really sure about your own Survival so it is definitely a an agenda it is definitely something that they would want for in an ideal world it would exist but you know it isn't as easy as it is to for us to theoretically sort of talk about yeah thank you um we'll go with Aran why to ask question sure thank you so much an for the presentation uh my question is essentially uh how does uh the change of legislature and inclusion in the Judiciary how how big is the impact considering India and China being very similar demographics in terms of culture so for example like uh the familial pressure and the experiences are quite similar in the Asian sense right uh so R in India I think rule of law and the Judiciary itself is independent from the uh from the rulers so to say of the country but that's not the case in uh China no that is not the case in China just the last last follow like the legal system in China itself seems to be very uh the rule of law as as it were isn't as strong as it is in India because uh it's more more more so based on implementation in China and how it goes about that so I was just wondering how impactful is the such legal changes going to be I mean it is definitely a win I I mean it is definitely a win to have you know the option or the choice of legal recourse you know it might not seem so of course there are implementation problem but there's implementation like law implementation problems in most countries you know it's not very easy to access uh law I mean even in our country it's not very easy to I mean it is easy but you know people will talk about like uh expenses and it's just you know another hassle so it is there are bureaucratic hurdles to it sure I concede with that point but it is definitely a huge huge uh deal if you know there are legal recognitions to do you know queer rights and queer issues because that means that sets a precedent you know that sets a precedent that the Next Generation or the person the next year might be able to sort of you know also CH like move the courts you know and they will have a precedent of saying that you know but it happened before so why can't it happen now and it always seems crazy until somebody does it and when somebody does it it seems like a very normal thing so you know and it'll give it'll give queer individuals much more um confidence in themselves and in their uh you know Judicial System uh about the protections that they that they can seek from it you know thank you so much uh due to interesting time I'll just take two more questions from the chat uh first from zubi perhaps um in regard to cre politics in China and its complicated Dynamics within Taiwan which was the first Asian country to legalize samesex marriage how is it affecting China's strategies and will there be any change in stances in the next decade so your voice of could you just repeat that question so Taiwan is perhaps the first Asian country to legalize samesex marriage and since it's obviously connected to China what kind of effect will that have in Chinese kind of politics and strategies as well as what are the future uh like what will happen the next decade in Chinese Affairs regarding that so I mean uh it's definitely going to influence Chinese Society uh in the mainland it's definitely going to uh uh influence how people um view what they previously thought was abnormal but I'm not sure if it is going to affect um Chinese politics that much maybe in a very uh sort of micro level if you look at it it might make uh China a bit more receptive to it because it does it will definitely boost China's uh you know International reputation and it'll definitely give China a sort of um boost in its dealings with International politics and also sort of uh with how it handles its Affairs in its neighborhood you know I wouldn't say China is opposed or strongly opposed to um you know the lgbtq plus Community as such it is opposed to any Community or any sort of um social movement or force that it deems sort of um you know delerious to its own um legitimacy you know so I I mean if you look at how uh you know China deals with human rights issues in other parts of its territories and if you look at how it you know treats um lgbtq plus uh you know it's relatively much more tolerant it is relatively and this could also be because it doesn't it it's probably you know maybe sees the queer Community as not very threatening uh you know so they might you know make uh you know they might make significant advancements I don't want to say they'll never do anything for the community they might make significant strides they I mean they had decriminalized homosexuality in 1997 so that's that's a pretty good starting point if you think about it you know I mean 1997 is it's it's been like a few two almost two decades more than two decades for you know the queer Community there so they definitely see them they definitely know that there is a huge community and a huge demographic that exists but as as long as as long as they as long as the queer Community doesn't sort of um you know infringe upon the authority that the party state has they will keep giving them you know small concessions here and there you know they will they will be neutral to its uh sort of proliferation or advancement as long as it doesn't feel that it's threatening them you know so definitely uh they could could have you know a great because Advocates like you know activists are advocating for uh more you know reforms they are advocating for uh you know the recognition of uh you know same-sex marriage you know that's a very big sort of issue for the queer community in um China and in India you know of of like uh you know recognizing you know same-sex marriage and it's definitely something that is uh on the peripheral of the CPC but it isn't something that they will prioritize right now so like I it's a it's quite a long road and you know as long as they can as long as the queer movement in China can sort of you know get incremental wins they'll take all the wins that they can thank you we'll have just one last question sure um so it's we'll take the first question of swak sarar um question is you talked about NE liberalism as a way to promote queer rights do you think it might also create inequalities within the queer communities as we have seen India and the West as well definitely uh definitely it will so like I would I would say that you know everything has its pros and cons if you like you know it will definitely increase in equality like you said but it will also um you know it will also help bring more visibility Visa the state you know if so if the state is more interested in uh sort of um uh you know business like expanding businesses and uh you know making money then it would be a win for the queer Community or for any community that gets affected by it but it will definitely neoliberalism will definitely affect inequality in such a way that you know it'll entrench it further it'll make inequalities much more like polarized you know and that is going to be true for like most societies you know for uh so whatever uh so that is what I mean by saying that you know we have to constantly keep learning and unlearning and constantly keep questioning ourselves and like the qu Community has to constantly keep uh you know adapting their strategies so that you know while this is the world that we live in you know you have to sort of make uh use of very creative methods to um you know have your own self and just like the queer community's interests in the Forefront yeah thank you so much for answering all of these questions I think that's it for today um I wish we could take more questions uh but we don't have the time for it um we'll now move towards yeah uh all you can like you know just uh reach out to me if you have any more questions I'll be happy to answer them yeah awesome you'll share um her contact details over emails to all of you um so um we I like to invite you or perhaps anybody else from uh the Orca team to give some final remarks and then we'll move towards the word of thanks I think we do have people from Ora here uh do they perhaps want to add some points or hi yes of course a very very good evening to everybody it's so good to see aana here after so many days um the speaker series uh is an excellent initiative by ifpp and we're very happy we got a chance to collaborate together I understand that we're running a little ahead of schedule so I won't take up too much time but um this is a very important topic that I do hope we see aana do more research on in the coming days because there is a dir of research on this topic and while she was here at Orca also this is a very unique ideation she had and um you know I also understand that a lot of the people in part part of this conversation today are students at Ashoka um we do have a very vibrant uh publication platform wherein we do publish young professionals younger emerging Scholars in case anybody wants to reach out with the topic ideas they can get in touch with theana who can link them up to us but uh thank you very much for including us in this and congratulations aana on giving a fantastic uh speaker session thank you awesome thank you so much um midia would perhaps she's from our founding committee and she'll now conclude the session with a word of thanks thank you AES um good evening everyone on behalf of the organizing team I would like to extend a word of thanks I would like to thank our distinguished speaker Miss aana Roy for not only sparing a invaluable time for us to Grace this session but also for enlightening us with her insightful thoughts on this subject uh we thank all the members who indulged in asking profound and Visionary questions to keep this session running I would also like to thank ajitesh vishwanath for moderating this session lastly I thank the audience for being such patient listeners and we hope to have all of you on board with us in our future endeavors and sessions uh this session would not have been possible without the collaborative efforts of organization for research on China and Asia with the Indian foreign policy project we hope to organize and deliver more such insightful events with them in the future thank you thank you so much for everybody joining in we'll see you in the next series have a nice day thank you so much for having me thank you oh