Transcript for:
Insights on Relationships and Personal Growth

I think most of us do the first date completely wrong we set ourselves up to fail and the reason why is because it's so true I can't believe how true this is Paul Brunson the world's most influential Matchmaker he's got a hit show on Oprah's network and right at first thought you pay this you may never have heard before my expertise is relationship science and the beauty of science is that if you can change the formula you change the results so if you are someone who is in a relationship and you're unsure how to communicate there's certain things that you could change tell me what those are it seems so simple but it literally changed my marriage so we're terrible when it comes to making any type of rational decision around our love life and if you can't have emotional intimacy you just simply can't have a relationship you have acquaintances you have situationships but you don't have relationships let's talk about sex can you be phys ically attracted to somebody but then not have sexual attraction there are different languages sexual languages you have to understand how your partner the language that they speak sex in men we need to know this 70 to 80 percent of women need before this episode begins I just want to say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers 74 of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before and we're now down to about 71 so that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain but simply the bigger the channel gets the bigger the guests get so if you haven't yet subscribed to the diversio if I can have any favors from you if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it it's just to please hit the Subscribe button without further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this yourself [Music] oh [Music] give me your context what do I need to know about you from your earliest years from those first 15 16 years of your life that would give me the context I need to understand the person you are today so I was born in Jamaica Queens you know and I claim to fame is uh is is Curtis Jackson 50 Cent right uh being shot nine times in our neighborhood that's our claim to fame but everyone's like okay I get it that's that's where it was um so grew up there it was a heavy Caribbean Jamaican uh first and second generation neighborhood but my father was who was the first in his family to go to college he focused in computer science oh wow yeah and so he you know hustled and my mother hustled and was they we were able to buy a home in Long Island and that was the like you've made it you've moved out the city and you've moved to Long Island we were the first black family to live in this neighborhood the first I'm talking about a hundred homes we were the first black family because of that when I moved to that neighborhood I was the underdog I was The Outsider and I was treated as such I remember being on the bus and just like smashed up against the the the the glass punched kicked you know it's one of these where I mean for no reason like for no reason other than the color of my skin um so that was that was growing up and how has that manifested in your adult life I'm a fighter you know I think that's really what I you know it's interesting I even I noticed when I walk into a room I seek out the underdog and I try to Champion them so if I walk into a room I'll look for the person who's hugging the wall the person who's in the corner by themselves and I will intentionally walk over to them you know try to befriend them so this is this has been this through line of my life is is trying to Champion people who I feel were the ones who were you know like me you know smashed up against the the bus window and you eventually went off to University College yes what career did you go into immediately after college Investment Banking okay interesting ended up hating it for the passion explain oh my God I mean you talk about eating you up spit you out culture you know like here's the best here here's how here's how I reminisce about Investment Banking my boss at the time was 33 years old right uh multi-millionaire he was considered one of the top uh so the division I was in was uh was Banks we covered Banks so he was one of the top investment bankers um you know covering Banks but top investment banker right his wife was pregnant at the time that we were working on a huge deal it was the at that time it was the largest secondary offering in the history right of of his history but so it's a major deal his wife is pregnant first child she's starting to give birth he decides to come into work any sensor to the hospital and he comes into work and I'll never forget it he's he's walking down the the aisle I'm like in a cubicle he's got the office in front of me he's walking down the aisle and people are standing up like this like yeah this is that's right you come here this is the most important thing yeah let her go off and do that right that was the moment where I said this place is this is like this is crazy you know it's crazy it's ridiculous and so that was when I started thinking okay I need to I need to get out of here and then you went and worked for envira no I didn't I didn't go to Denver yet oh okay I went off to I did what everybody does I went to business school and so went to business school while I was so while I was at business school I met enverugel didn't start working for him but I met him so he at that time multi-millionaire but he owned a massive company in Turkey he was trying to extend his business in the United States and when I met him it was a professional relationship and it was more so hey Paul whenever I come to the United States I'd love for you you to help me to schedule meetings or help for you help me to get booked into people because I lived in Washington DC at the time and Capitol Hill was there lots of senators and Congress people and so it was easy for me to pick up the phone work the the network to get a meeting with it could be Senator Hillary Clinton and so I was helping him at the time then I came up with a concept to start a non-profit organization and I needed to raise funding or I wanted to raise funding for it and I decided that I would ask Enver to help me on this so that's when I started working for envyugel how old are you at that age I don't know that's uh I'm 30. I'm in in the 30 Zone in your early 30s you start your your matchmaking company what was it about matchmaking that just connected with you inside and made you because in order to to be to get obsessed with anything to go and study it to to then pursue it for all these years it has to be connecting with you because of your experiences your biases your in a very particular way because I'm somewhat interested in it but I wouldn't dedicate my I wouldn't dedicate that kind of attention to it so what was it about you that resonated so much about bringing people together in such a way fair you know thinking about this for the first time is I'm actually connecting it to what you asked me with regard to how I grew up right because to me nearly every person who comes to a Matchmaker because keep in mind you're probably spending 10 to 20 000 you know for for matchmaking Services you're probably allocating six to twelve months of your life to walk through that process it is it's a lot right and to me ever the kernel of every client is there there's there's a there there's there's a feeling of hopelessness there's a feeling of the this is my last shot you know there's a feeling of I am alone you know in in this and that's where I resonated you know I always talk about I you know in in business you know we talk about this fifth why right the why that makes you cry the why that when you're thinking about a customer what are they thinking about at night what's keeping them up right at night and if you as an entrepreneur or a business owner if you can help to solve that problem that's keeping them up at night the why that's making them cry well that's that's the the secret sauce but the key is that you have to be passionate about that right because it's going to take you a lot of you know Innovations and a lot of time a lot of energy to figure out what the formula is but for me that that was what it was it was there was like this level of like I'm I'm giving up hope you know I'm just I'm just done and also it was for a particular Avatar which I think is also important for a particular customer so you know what I've always learned in business is that you can't serve everyone right so it's important to find a particular customer specific demographic a customer Avatar right and look for the deepest pain Point within that particular Avatar now when I got into the matchmaking space I was the first or what the matchmaking Institute says I was the first full-time black Matchmaker in the United States okay in matchmaking what a lot of people don't like to talk about what was happening is there was significant segregation happening in the matchmaking space and what was happening is that in particular black women were not being serviced by matchmakers for a variety of reasons but they were not being serviced at all so my first customer my first avatar were black women in particular in the we call it the DMV DC Maryland Virginia area and so there was a very particular pain Point within the Avatar right and so it was hopelessness but it wasn't just hopelessness now that I've described you know the Avatar right this is someone who most likely she's Highly Educated she's making great money she has a child you know she is incredible uh match for someone so so she became my first she became my first client and I was passionate you know why because she was my sister-in-law she was my auntie you know she was my cousin I know her I live with her I've grown up with her that was why I was so you know so passionate about her what is What is the relationship your parents had and how is that influenced your work yeah great great one they have had an incredibly loving relationship you know and and not just my parents but my grandparents it's no surprise is it because then you've had this you know staggering long relationship with Jill it's funny how that you know those generational Cycles play out over and over again right yeah and that and that's it that's it it's like let's break the cycle you know we can break the cycle that that was that was part of it playing out you know with my wife Jill her parents incredibly strong right her grandparents on both sides incredibly strong incredibly loving it's an interesting question for anybody listening to this now it's just like how much does your relationship currently if you're in one mirror that of your parents and I think about you know even the in my team here the people that have the best relationships in my team their parents have the best relationships and their partner's parents have the best relationships like just that solid best friend type Vibes multi-decade best friend Vibes in their parents yes it's interesting yeah and and so um I agree I think if we did that we did a you know longitudinal study around that we would find that to be precise but part of what I think is driving it is I mean you could go back and look at attachment Styles but I think largely what's what's driving that is is seeing what love looks like modeled before you right and know that it's not always uh what we consider to be lovey-dovey it can be contentious a matter of fact disagreements and arguments are important are are critical right because you need to almost break down the relationship in order to gain the skills to to to to to bring it back up right and that's what makes it stronger and so I think the modeling is is is key it's so true so true and I've it took me until I was 25 years to old to figure this out that modeling point that the first model you've been given of Love is your parents so you believe that to be the truth about any person you then meet in your lives and so you I I can remember like almost in high definition in my mind this image of looking over at my dad sat on the sofa and my mom just screaming at him and thinking I'd [ __ ] hate to be this guy and then I go into life and I just avoid yes avoid every I'm obsessed about having control yes I mean I've heard you talk about this before yes yeah I'm gonna say yes I mean this is that is prototype avoidant yeah that's me attachment style yeah right and and what's was so interesting to me about attachment style which by the way um uh it's uh uh Levine Dr Levine wrote phenomenal book called attached right on this and I recommend for for everyone is you know they're primarily three categories of attachment you have secure you have anxious and then you have avoidant right and when you think about this it's precisely what you just said Stephen is that when you think of how you first saw love and you saw it modeled and you saw it relate to you right was it one of which was Secure in that you felt like you would be you know if you were hurt you could go to a place for safety right you would be caressed right you'd be you'd you'd be cared for you know that's secure but then you move to the avoidant right where it was you almost having to self-soothe yourself right which then pushes you away from wanting to have have anything to do with that and you become you know what's interesting the top and this is just me guessing and observing the top entrepreneurs our avoidance because they've had to develop the skills to self-sustain themselves right they've had to rely on themselves people who are avoidant don't trust easily but you trust yourself right so you look at that and you say oh my God like this came from me as a child like it's incredible and then with the anxious the anxious is really interesting because the anxious was typically a lot of parents like my situation where your parents worked all the time so when they were home they would be there to give you the love but they couldn't be home all the time because they had to be they had to work so then you had to substitute a little bit so then you became anxious about their love needy needy and this is the person who's like texting all the time like see I know in the past you must have had the the girlfriend was like Stephen Where Are You Stephen where are you no come on Stephen where are you where are you right all of that shows up as adults right uh and and also this is but but I guess long story short is to the point of when we've recognized that this is why being in a relationship with someone who is secure is so important because you can shift your style as an adult you can be avoidant be in a relationship with someone who's secure and adapt to a secure attachment do you notice that you notice that people who are avoidant tend to go for people that are more secure that they go for for the anxious interesting right yeah yeah for needy people yeah right because because yeah because I mean becomes a bit of a you know the they're chasing them and they're they're because you know you think about this if you're avoiding you're pretty much self-sustained right but if someone is anxious they're aggressively courting you right so they're pushing to be in your space right so the secure unfortunately becomes boring for so many people safe vanilla [Music] it's so true I can't believe how true this is you know but but but secure is where it's at you know that's where it's at you want to secure people you want a secure in anyone else strong secure can help bring can help bring anyone over too but also you know in avoiding in anxious can also uh you know work it's ultimately to me it's it's about that effort is there such a way to so if I'm an avoidant for example or I'm an anxious is there work I can do myself to become a secure without having to meet a secure and have them bring me over yes absolutely one of the top things someone who is avoiding can work on is their emotional intimacy and that begins with simply recognizing their emotions your emotions and articulating them it's it seemed it actually seems easy but it's incredibly challenging so uncomfortable so uncomfortable especially for a man yes so for example I could say Stephen how do you truly how do you feel right now in this moment now in this moment very inspired and very keen to learn okay more but very yeah okay well I mean you did that effortlessly right yeah but but but now the next challenge would be okay we'll do that with your you know with your romantic partner yeah right and do it in spaces where you feel vulnerable it becomes very very challenging to say how you feel how someone makes you feel it makes perfect sense because there was a void in my childhood parenting which I I've always said has made made me an entrepreneur but in that void as well there's a void of like a learning affection uh so I you know I still call my parents by their first names I've never called the mum and dad I we we weren't like there was no like I love you or like hugging or stuff stuff like that especially in my childhood so learning later in life to them to be emotional and to express how I'm feeling and to if we go friend says what's wrong or you know how do you feel about this I only you know I'd often just lie about how I was feeling just for keep things nice and calm right um but I definitely you know it's definitely something I've had to learn right but I I can see that that so I mean you're a life learner like you're a student of life so I can see that you have not even begun you've you've done the work right but for so many avoidance I'd say begun begun okay so but for so many avoidance that work has not yet begun and being able to identify the emotion right and and the feeling too because you know and even distinguish between the emotion and the feeling right but to be able to to distinguish that and then to be able to articulate that is so incredibly important because without that you cannot have the emotional intimacy and if you can't have emotional intimacy you just simply can't have a relationship you just can't you you have acquaintances you know you have co-workers you know um you have uh uh situationships you know but you don't have relationships that is a amazing sound bite at least cut that into a real protect team listening um so there's gender differences here as well because of of my friends both women and men I know for a fact that my male friends usually just push for like an easy life yeah they just want you know if their partner is expressing emotional um feelings or is expressing their emotions towards them most of my male friends will see that as an attack you know and like they they just don't want to go there it's it's this energy that men just don't like so I was watching this funny Twitter video before I came down here and it's this woman she's cooked dinner for her husband and she's proving that men just won't tell you the truth she puts loads of salt in it to make it taste awful and she walks into the front room while he's watching the game and she goes try this hun tell me what you think and you see his face just works and it's [ __ ] disgusting and he goes yeah and for me it's summed up man it's like we just want to avoid the heat like we literally literally you're not so I have a theory on this right so I'm I'm testing this one out right but but I call it the feedback loop Theory so my wife was in HR yeah before she joined me in the matchmaking space and one of the things that they would do uh in their company she worked in this Law Firm is that they would uh you know extensive feedback during the review period extensive feedback so you know how was your year how did you perform all of these these kpis right and that feedback would translate into higher performance I mean just bottom line and what I've noticed with women typically typically with women is that whenever there's a romantic experience that romantic experience is then shared with like 10 of their friends you know it's like go out on a date the WhatsApp group knows everything that's happening in on on the date and then there's a debrief of the date there's an analysis of the date here's what he did here's what I wore blah blah blah blah this happens for three days constant feedback and that feedback ends up making women I think on average better daters right better equipped to deal and manage in relationships now Stephen when you were single tell me this if you were going on a date right who do you talk to about the date nobody yeah it's so it's all it's all in your head it's like okay I might tell one of my friends I might say oh I saw this person the other night you know when I was single I would have gone you know I saw Ruby like three days ago and she was that was it was fun yeah yeah he was like all right cool yeah yeah and that's it there's no feedback and think about this think about not that just happening on one date but that happening month after month year after year 10 15 years of no feedback we're all in our head we have no idea like how to perform how to up our performance and that impacts what happens when we eventually get into the relationship so I think the feedback loop there's really something to it and I've noticed it's primarily a gender difference so are you saying also that because women are have a community where they're discussing stuff they're discussing feelings and what happened they try and bring that same energy to a man who's just not used to it and he goes [ __ ] how like I I don't know like I you know what I mean and he's just like trying to avoid going there because he's never really had to go there before never had to never had to when you dig into the data and this is what I love about love like in particular I always say that my expertise is relationship science right I like to look at the science of love and look at how that impacts how we show up and why we show up and the beauty of science is that if you can change the the formula not necessarily a formula if you change the equation right you change the result and that's the beautiful thing so if you are someone who is in a relationship and you're unsure how to communicate there's certain things that you could change to make the communication stronger make the relationship better tell me what those are oh my God there's so many what are the like foundational things that have worked for you and your clients in terms of like communication conflict resolution okay great great question uh okay so a couple things and even with uh not only with my clients but but with my wife you know so this this seems so basic I think it's talked about but not even talked about enough is Gary Chapman's five love languages it seems so simple but it literally changed my marriage so by you know there's something called the the the The Five-Year itch and The Seven Year Itch typically in marriages not committed relationships but marriages where you literally see separation rates and divorce rates increase at that five and seven year mark right you also see it happen when uh they become when marriages become you become empty nesters your you know kids go off to school but right around that five and seven year mark I was sleeping on the couch at my house like it was not good you know in our household and this was so small but so significant is I bought Dr Gary Chapman's five love languages right which outlines right five ways that we recognize and see love but here was the power of it the power of it was that my wife I thought she was spoiled because all she wanted was gifts like she was like buy me this buy me that's my birthday buy me this it's Christmas buy me this it's Monday buy me this right it was by me right and I thought to myself Jesus she's spoiled like this is crazy so what do I do Stephen I bet you would do the same thing you know what I did well I said I'm not gonna buy you anything you know because you're spoiled I'm gonna change this Behavior you know I'm not gonna buy you a thing so what happens when it's her birthday it's Christmas it's the anniversary it's Monday and I'm not buying her anything oh man like hell it becomes hell but it was Dr Gary Chapman's book that helped me understand that the way that my wife grew up the way that she saw love through her parents were through gifts father spoiled her to death right and her father loved her and showed his love showered his love through gift through gift giving so she as a little girl is growing up thinking okay you know I get the doll I get this I get this right this is love this is love this is love her love language is legitimately gifts I had to understand that fundamentally to understand that this is how she will see that I love her it's not just simply through maybe what's you know uh you know acts of service which is which is my love language right do something on my behalf yeah right so I would do something on her behalf right but no it was it's gifts and then for her to know okay for me it's acts of service so if she you know she was big on gifts giving me gifts and I was like I don't I don't I don't resonate with this you know I don't get this and so fought the understanding truly understanding your partner's love language and then giving them love in that language is a game changer and a quick way to determine someone's love language is just observe how they show love to the people they love right what do they do right that's that's a quick way so so so love languages game changer Game Changer right so so that's one um secondly is to I think to understand that you you need to argue right but great relationships are bids you're putting in bids it's a constant tennis match that's a great relationship constant tennis match so what that means is that you are showing through your action through your love language through your words Etc but you're showing that you love your partner and you're doing that consistently over and over and over and over and over again and what your partner is going to be doing is they're going to hit that ball back to you and you're going to hit that ball back to them but you have to remember this one thing sometimes you have to hit the ball five times over right the net before they return the ball to you and ultimately what that means is that you have to consistently remind your partner so you could be I'm 21 years into my marriage people think all right you're 21 you're good you don't have to do anything now right it's smooth sailing no when I get home today I am still showing up recognizing that I have to continually put those bids in you know I always say it's like Janet Jackson what have you done for me lately that's truly what a relationship is is that it's constantly it's this constant constant right and then part of that that constant too maybe this is just a third concept super simple but intentional time intentional time so so what what I find really interesting is you look at how much time we spend with our our partners or our spouse it's one to two hours a day on our on average the average married couple spends one to two hours per day so you think about that you're probably spending more time with the bus driver than you are with with your spouse and then in the one to two hours what are you actually doing it's like ships passing in the night you know no real conversation one's watching TV in this side one's on the computer over here no real communication and what ends up happening is you're not able to exchange ideas you're not able to talk about you know dreams you're not able to talk about hopes you're not able to talk about your feelings you know you're not able to connect intentional time spent I always say that you know effort always equals interest but whatever is important to you in life you have to be intentional about spending time on it you know and that includes the relationship that includes it and so intentional time so that may mean okay every Friday we're having dinner together where every night we're having to in my household it's every night we have dinner together as a family I help I try to rearrange my schedule so that I'm at home with my family having dinner and if I get home too late to have dinner with my boys my wife and I are having dinner at 11 PM 12 midnight but we are communing together right this is very important uh you know we talk about you know weekly dates but the whole bottom line is spending time this Saturday my wife and I we have a date right yeah 21 years into our marriage still planning dates still excited about the dates it's intentional time spent intentional time spent so I mean there's there's so many Concepts but I would say that if you just do those if you just think about that those basics love language right understanding that relationships are always a bid it's always a bid back and forth always and sometimes you have to bid five six times before you get the ball back right but it's always bid and then it's intentional time spent you you know you you typically you typically you typically grow together opposed to growing apart you're on the couch five years in right yes the the only way off that couch with all of those things said is like communication you have to at some point you're gonna have to have a tough conversation about something yes um in business in life and in everything and what I've noticed is most of the issues I have in my life uh have become big issues because I didn't have an honest conversation about something sooner when I knew it was a problem so I deferred I knocked it back whatever um the art of having a good healthy conversation with someone with a partner with someone you love when there's a lot of emotion and tension is something that I don't think we've talked about enough in in society specifically men really struggle I think with that how does how does one have a a good conflict resolution orientated conversation without you know [ __ ] screaming or walk running out or whatever or blame you know yeah yeah no I hear you and and I agree and I I hear This this term uh passed around a lot and I agree with it is is that the more challenging conversations you have in life the higher quality your life is because most of us try to run away as you're saying right so I think there are a couple things that we could do one is sometimes you won't be equipped to have that conversation or your partner won't be equipped to have that conversation that's the importance of having a third party right this is the reason why you know therapy is so incredibly important and I and I really try to preach this because I feel like the UK is a little bit behind the U.S you know when it comes to that is therapy is sexy you know having a counselor is sexy you know what I mean so having a third party a professional one that's very important secondly is is uh is is context picking the right moments to have these challenging conversations picking the right environments to have these conversations are incredibly important right you could you could we could decide that we can have this argument in the kitchen when we know that the boys have to be in bed in five minutes and I know it's been a long day for you and I haven't slept last night we could have this conversation right now if you want to it's probably not going to go in the direction we wanted to or we could wait and hold on until Saturday when we're both taking that walk back from dropping the boys off at their at their at their class and we have 10 minutes to sit in the park and talk about this so to have the right context is incredibly incredibly important third I think if I'm giving top three is to actually set rules and boundaries and this does not happen enough in relationships and I always say that if you don't set boundaries you will take even well-intentioned partners and turn them into bullies you don't set your boundaries so you have to set your boundaries from the beginning of the relationship but in particular when you're having these tough conversations and boundaries could be as simple as we're going to focus on one topic when you're having an uh a discussion the discussion should be about the topic at hand right but setting what those boundaries are ahead of time because typically what ends up happening is fights become unfair right it's healthy to fight but it's unhealthy to fight in an unfair manner so I think those are those are three three techniques that I know that you know Jill and myself that we use when we are having our discussions quick one from our longest standing sponsor hero I I can't tell you over the last I'd say over the last really it's been about two and a half years it was really um post pandemic how much my health has become such a huge priority in my life huel has been probably the most important partner in my health Journey because I've been in the boardrooms I've been to their offices tens and tens and tens and tens of times I've seen how they make their decisions on nutrition and I trust it I trust the brand to keep me nutritionally complete and that is something that I fight for every single day and the chaos and the busyness of my life and that's why it's such a wonderful thing to be able to talk to this audience about a brand and a product that is so unbelievably linked to my values and the the place I am in my life of valuing the gym exercise movement my mind my breathing and all of those things and most importantly my nutrition that is the role fuel plays and so if you haven't already tried Hill and you've been resistant to my my pestering then give it a go and let me know how you get on quick word from one of my sponsors um super excited to announce that our new sponsor for the podcast is Intel a brand that pretty much every single person listening to this is a user of but in some cases you might not even know for those that don't know Intel is a technological Powerhouse who have been driving Technology Innovation and transformation for more than 50 years we all know that technology has never been more important than it is today and Intel is truly shaping the future of our industry from keeping us connected through 5G which we use in all of our lives every single day to modernizing computers to transforming businesses through data and analytics the list goes on and on and on I've been particularly excited to announce the sponsorship because we've been using Intel's technology throughout this building and on this podcast for some time now and it makes our lives so much easier in so many ways especially as it relates to producing this show for you so head over to intel.co.uk and you can find out why they've become an essential piece of technology in my day-to-day routine let me know what you think at some point um you started a YouTube channel and Oprah got in touch yes that's crazy it's crazy it's it's uh it's crazy but it is uh you know so when I decided to launch my matchmaking business after I'd spent a year prepping I didn't know how to launch it and it was my wife and my best friend at the time who said you know you should focus on the marketing aspect of this you should start a YouTube channel now this is 2009 [Music] so like early early were you born in 2000 not just about so you know so 2009 so YouTube isn't a big it's a thing it's not as big a thing as it is right now it's not known as the go-to place to Market your new company um but I decided to create a YouTube series called the modern day Matchmaker and what I decided is I would pump all of my money into this thing and I I mean when I look around the studio this is an impressive studio um I had like one out of ten of these cameras I had like one camera you know but it was me spending a thousand to four thousand dollars per production minute right so we had a team yeah I know it's crazy it's ridiculous but the reason why is because I thought I had a unique point of view and if I can just push that out into the marketplace I could distinguish myself from the competitors and I would put out this video every week man and nobody would watch it nobody and and I say this and this is not even a joke is every week it would get like 11 or 12 views this video and my mother was watching nine of those you know and so it was no one was watching this thing but I thought this was a way for me to you know from for me to at least create my brand within the space now it turns out that one of those 11 views was Oprah people say like okay how did Oprah find you you know the reason why Oprah was able to find me is because a year prior I was doing pro bono matchmaking services free work free work one of my clients and I had no idea but one of my clients was a writer for O magazine a year later she's on Oprah's jet Oprah says I have a concept for a new TV show I'm looking for a fresh voice my client in the jet says have you heard of Paul Brunson Oprah says no but let me see YouTube search Paul Brunson save let me start watching so Oprah was watching this YouTube series and and you know when I always look at it I say gosh to me it is a powerful story because she ends up offering me a job to co-host a television show with her on her brand new network off of this YouTube series that no one was watching but Oprah my mother and like two other people and I say it's a powerful story about quality over quantity you know I think we live in a day and age where you know vanity metrics in particular are are everything you know it's like I need to have this number of followers this number of views and I get it to a certain extent it is important when you're monetizing But ultimately The Who that's watching is more important and it was it was through that that you know that that YouTube series that I I got the job and it and working with Oprah changed my life there's this thing called like lagging metrics um in kpis and business and analytics where the the metrics that show up later once you've done the input once you've done the work and I was thinking about that as you're speaking because you were doing you were doing focusing on quality now the lagging metric was that you were going to become an Oprah Winfrey Show and she was gonna watch but you were just planting the seeds of quality and and like I'm sure that if you carried on doing that channel for 15 years it would have probably had 15 million subscribers but but in fact I always think about it like seeds even with even with what we've done here if I showed you the graph of the growth of the diver Co it's literally this is no exaggeration I posted on my Twitter the day it's two years flat right now what happens next is it goes like a like a vertical lineup well well and you never know when or how or whatever but those first two years when it was flat was when all of those seeds were being planted and really where you're you're learning your craft and I think so many people um it's important for so many people because the big metrics always lag behind and things go fast then things go slow then fast yes and uh we sometimes can get super impatient about where why isn't Oprah called me yet why don't I have a big podcast for 10 15 million download why don't I have that yet but you're doing the work now to have that in that quiet period And I loved what you said there about like the quality like if you just focus on quality which is something you know you can control just making whatever you're doing now like the best yes you have nothing to worry about you don't need to worry you just need patience yes yes and and I love that when I hear that that story because 11 views one of them [ __ ] Oprah is just yeah it's it's a mind blow it's a it's a mind blow and and I think to to even add to what you're saying is I think that that's the key of having the passion because that's I mean that's the reason why like yeah you keep on keeping on you keep on keeping on because because otherwise the first hurdle you hit you give up right and you should because you're [ __ ] stupid go get a job can you imagine he was like what are you doing you just came from Investment Banking like I mean honestly Steven the amount of people who thought I was crazy like commit this guy he left Investment Banking and he's doing YouTube videos out of his bedroom and he's not paying for his mortgage right his wife my wife liquidated her retirement fund so so we had burned through our money she liquidates her retirement fund and we start using that as capital for the business and the capital is being used for a YouTube series that 11 people are watching like people thought I was nuts that's it I think Steve Jobs said it he said you know there's going to become a day when you're doing what you're doing where any sane person would give up and they should give up but faced with the facts and numbers that you'll see before you but those that keep going are those that are doing it for that really deep internal reason and like one of the things I know for sure is that no matter what business you start unless you're very very lucky exceptionally lucky you're gonna have those days and there's not gonna be one of them it's going to be for most people week months sometimes multiple years where everything is saying you're an idiot you should stop right and the only way you Grace those hurdles is because sometimes because you don't have a plan B that's a very good way to just keep on keeping on but because it's a challenge that you must pursue right regardless of remuneration or outcome it's for you and so when I bet on entrepreneurs especially when I'm investing in them I'm looking for that I'm like I because I don't I don't know always a ton about the industries but what I do know is a ton about the nature of business and I know your hard days are coming how will you respond for that three years where everything is bad right resilience you know purpose all of those sort of key indicators so Oprah you end up working with Oprah on her show I guess I got two questions first one is what did you learn from Oprah working so closely with her well the first thing I learned was not to color Oprah no no no no no no no no you could call if you were working for her she's Miss Winfrey that was the first thing I learned someone corrected me very quickly I was like oh no they said no this went free you know uh so that was the first thing but she is everything you can imagine that she is times a hundred but also too was interesting to me about about Miss Winfrey about Oprah is that when she would speak you never knew if she was talking about the event in the immediate or she's giving you some you know life advice like I remember the the very first scene I shot with her was we were in Georgia so we shot a show called love Town USA I actually did two shows with Oprah but the first one was love Town USA and there's 10 000 people in this audience they're all there to see Oprah there's this massive light kit on stage it's big it's my first big event ever I've never spoken in front of 10 like I've never spoken in front of 10 people you know 10 000 people and the director comes over and he was like all right Paul get up on stage hit your mark and introduce Oprah he's thinking hit my mark what is a mark like what does that mean and I'm freaking out I'm sweating and Oprah comes over to me real calm cool puts her hand on my on my shoulder she's like all right baby look this is it's real simple you just walk on that stage keep walking until you feel the light hit you the brightest that's where you stay right and I was thinking to myself is she talking about the stage is she talking about life like because that's deep you know but that's how she would speak um and she was uh she just Just Amazing Just just amazing amazing amazing person why is she successful in your assessment why is she Oprah Oprah what is it about her yeah so I I studied her you know I'm a people Watcher you know uh and I worked for so I worked for Oprah after I worked for Enver and the similarity to me is that when I started working for Enver he went from multi-millionaire to billionaire and that to me was was really interesting because of how few billionaires you know there are in in the world so I started to journal what I learned from Enver then I start working for Oprah and I noticed similarities and what was wild to me is here are two people who are completely different you know one woman one man went from the U.S one turkey when married one not one Christian one Muslim it's like completely different but yet they had these same characteristics and for Oprah in particular you know I noticed we used to go on these Road shows for the show to sell the show to to advertisers and before the road show she would also she would always host a dinner and these dinners there would be you know 20 30 people at the dinner you'd have all types of athletes and politicians and uh you know she would have her she would bring her some of her girls from her school in South Africa would also be at the table it would be this potpourri this eclectic Buffet of various people and she would sit and she would conduct these these amazing dinners and I realized that at these dinners that was her education but it was the dinner like she was being educated on what was happening in the world what's going to happen tomorrow right because she had a lot of The Playmakers at the table she was learning about different perspectives she was teasing out her own ideas and debating them before she would take them on screen she would do this in these intimate dinner settings I noticed Enver would do the same thing massive dinners 20 30 people every night he would have these massive dinners and he would do the same thing they they would they would you know they the concept is Never Eat Alone you know Keith farazi has a book called Never Eat Alone which I think is a phenomenal book but it's about the power of socializing and the power that you get from from essentially strengthening your the weak ties in your network interesting I think I'm quite bad at socializing you you know so I was gonna say I'm wondering if there's like a digital equivalent or if like I'm doing it right now yes see I think this this is your extension but so okay so let's let's even tease this out a little bit so Mark granoveter who was a Stanford Professor came up with this theory of of weak ties right so if you take robin Dunbar right who has the Dunbar rule we have roughly 150 friends essentially right you could debate it out but on average right um if you think about your 150th friend the weakest friends right the 140th friend right acquaintance acquaintance right those are where our biggest opportunities in life come that's where deals come for our business that's where we get introduced to spouses right that's where you know tickets to the football game come it comes from the weakest ties opposed to our nearest and dearest which you think about you think God is that even logical but it is our weakest ties Drive the most opportunity in our life but what do we do most of us we spend all of our time where with the people closest to us but what Oprah and Enver do and what Mark granoveter talks about with this theory is that the key is to constantly be strengthening our weak ties investing in those weak ties adding new people in to our weak ties kicking other other people out and that's what they're doing those people at that table those were not her Besties those were not her top five right those were her 120th 130th and that's where the enormous opportunity comes in testing so your matchmaking business becomes from what I read one of the largest matchmaking companies in the United States yes how long did that take the Paul C Brunson agency oh my God that was two thousand so I was 2008 to 2016. so eight years two of all the avatars of the sort of personas do you find struggles with being alone the most oh my you know it men really yeah and I would even say uh you know I mean you know there's a whole in-cell movement yeah right uh but but and you know there's lots of Articles now about the the rise of of the lonely man you know uh but quite honestly or at least from experience remember this is 2016. slightly you know slightly different time but successful men and I when I say financially successful so those who were the investment bankers who 45 years old retired from Investment Banking thinking about their next career divorced twice sitting at home alone right that's where the struggle that's where it hits you you know when you realize oh my God I'm 45. I'm I've only lived half my life you know and here I am alone and I'm a dick on top of it right so that's that was that was the demo that was there was a struggle I gotta be honest when I asked you that question about which group of people would struggle the most with loneliness my head bounced around I thought I think he's gonna say potentially um younger men because of this whole in-cell thing where you know I don't want to get into the mass shootings and stuff but kid you know young men who have I had a guest on this podcast Scott Galloway who talked about how like 90 of the female attention even when you think about things like Bumble goes to like the top five ten percent of men yes and then you've got this kind of the other 40 do okay then you've got the bottom 50 of men that are totally just not getting that haven't been laid from for more than a year I think that's what he said um so I thought maybe you'd go for them then I thought he's gonna say 30 plus women because of things like biological clocks and stuff like that right um and this sort of social pressure which I I I've heard from guests here that some women can feel because of society's expectations and timelines to like to hurry up and be married so I thought you would say one of those two groups so to hear you say a completely different group yeah was quite surprising yeah no I hear you and and what you said that's a logical it's a logical breakout but for me and this is my experience as dealing with those who are seeking matchmaking you know is that the thought is time is over you know my my the Heyday is gone you know it's kind of like the the athlete that is now retired but one but still desires to play but realizes that they don't have you know they don't have it anymore but a rich 44 year old man yes has got options has you know what a Rich Ford yeah has options but but we're talking about loneliness though okay right and there's an emptiness that does come over you when you realize you know so a large part of loneliness unfortunately is through comparison because you know this whole idea when we compare we despair we despair upon ourselves so a large part of that is is that you look across your peers and you say look at this now Stephen's married you know he's two children you know and I'm yeah I'm out here I have my Ferrari you know but I come home to myself in my big house in my big in my massive house and there's there's and there's no one here with me and you're astute enough to know that all of those people who you thought were loyal to you were actually not loyal to you but they were just loyal to their circumstances with you and the job and stuff yeah the job right exactly so so you begin to understand oh my God they're not my friends I I have I I have no one and so when you have someone to go to a Matchmaker typically they have reached the end of their line when it comes to their hope you know and I think that from my peers who are of that age or I'll say of that vintage right that it is uh you know it's it's it's incredibly sad it's just it's just incredibly sad now I think what women do tremendously well or should I say better than men of that age is they understand how to build community and that's something that goes back to what we were talking about before we talked about you know the feedback loop we talked about uh you know challenges around being emotionally available especially at an early age understanding how to build emotional intimacy the these these things all play themselves out not only in our romantic relationships but in our platonic relationships and what we have to understand is that these the stronger platonic relationships we have the more Health we have the longer we live the more money you know you know we we make you know I have a so I have a it's my wife's uh aunt she is 111 years old so she's one of the oldest human beings right now on the planet she's a hundred and eleven incredibly astute and when I sit down I just sit down and I'm just I absorb everything that she says and what I realize is she still has friends like at 111 she's friends that she talks to every day you know that's how you stay alive you know we we focus and I get it you know gut health is so important and low cholesterol is so important yeah I I get it right exercise is so important right I get all those things are so important but I would argue that our social connections are even more important and we have to understand how to build the skills and you do that before like I always say the best time to work on your marriage is before you get married you know the best time to work on your friendships before you have your friend right we need to develop these skills early on someone said to me in fact yesterday so ring surgery is what you're saying that um we were talking about resilience and they said we used to think of resilience as like being tough yourself but when we look at different people the resilience comes from being surrounded by Community a supportive community and that in fact makes a person an individual resilient psychologically resilient so when I think about that investment banker that's 45 years old and alone he doesn't have a community to help keep his psychological resilience in place and there's this thing there's this really interesting study that I that I read about um and this goes back to our sort of ancestral backgrounds where we lived together in these tight-knit communities where if someone the reason why when people are lonely they they live less long and they're more susceptible to illness disease and all of these other things is because scientists have seen that the brain literally goes into a state called self-preservation where your sleep so think about it if you left your tribe and you're out on the I don't know the Serengeti when we were I don't know tens of thousands of years ago whatever everything's check everything changes in terms of your your keeping yourself Alive You Can't Sleep the same so they observe the brain of someone who's lonely and they struggle with sleep because we've been programmed to [ __ ] stay up because the lion might be coming right and this is really interesting there's all these dots are connecting in my brain now because I started learning about this thing called chronotypes where all of us and a group of 20 30 people what you'll find is they all have completely different sleeping rhythms when they get hungry when they're most creative when they have the most power so I'm an owl my my partner was was the opposite yes and the reason why we have these different chronotypes again it goes back to the tribal days where like we didn't all want to sleep at the same time right or be alert at the same time so we create a community where we're basically one Shield of the tribe to survive and thinking about that guy who's 45 years old he's got the bag but he's lonely as [ __ ] he's in self-preservation yeah that's a great point you know that's that's physiologically your brain is completely different uh when you fall into a state of loneliness and because your body's trying to help you survive in this dangerous potentially dangerous World from the Lions out there yeah the other thing they noticed was when someone was lonely is their levels of resentment like the snappiness the like anger the all of that went up as well and that links to what you said about they don't learn the skills to form connections because they've got so used to self-defense like psychological self-defense yeah yeah and I can see that if you're in that state then you just delve deeper into that as each year ago like you become a curmudgeon like you become Russia yeah yeah recluse from it's just it's that that to me is sad because you have someone who you pers you perceive them to have it all yeah but they really have nothing and it makes sense because if I was if I got used to being alone say I was on the in the I don't know I don't even know where prehistoric humans used to live just in the savannah of Africa because we're all from Africa right and I've got so used to living alone when I see someone else or a tribe I'm not gonna be like hey I'm gonna think these [ __ ] are gonna kill me I'm going to hide yeah yeah trust goes down you're you're apprehensive yes you know all of those things that you actually described early on that happens and that makes perfect sense yeah yeah what do you do though so in that case of that investment banker what is step one to get them from that point when they're on the couch they've got all that money in that Mansion they're alone how to get them out there and find someone to love them yeah I mean therapy you know with so with matchmaking one of the things that we introduced we we were Pioneers in many ways one way is that you would come to us and we wouldn't just simply find dates for you we you would come to us and then we would assign you to a therapist that you'd work with for three to six months before you went on your date right so there's this Rehabilitation you know that takes place and and what I always say about therapy too is it's not you go to a therapist and you're fixed you know it's you begin to build the muscle and you continue that right so that would be a place to begin secondly is to begin friendships is where I would go so it's not like okay how can I place you in a community of 10 people but how can I find one person that you could begin to build a relationship with and start with building Rapport you know very basic very you know very very basic very slow but that's how I would begin you know also talking about that particular client because you know it's been some while since I've been matchmaking but now he's coming back to me um very you know what I found with men of that particular vintage right and the dating scene is is that the a lot of the the body movements were I would call odd right the there was a social ineptness you know um that needed to be worked out you know Bodyline we say more with our body than than we do with our words and there was a uncomfortableness you know that took months to to tease out and this is especially if you are coming from a career where you are the Authority you were the boss you're you're the top dog so you don't have a level of no one is critiquing your body language right but now you move to a social situation where your entire interaction is largely based on your body language it's it's a different situation so it takes it takes months right or it could take years but it takes a while of work before you know before we we begin the matchmaking I'm like slowly developing a theory on Awkward Huggers do you know what I mean those people that are like okay they kind of give you a tap on the back oh my gosh yeah can I okay can we talk about hugging for a second 100 I noticed that men do this so so I have a buddy named Tom Reed Wilson who's on one of the shows with me and he taught me something that I now pay close attention to so most men I notice hug and tap the back get the [ __ ] off right but what Tom taught me is the hold and embrace and hold and embrace for 30 seconds which is a long freaking time to embrace someone wow and what he taught me was that in that Embrace to notice how uncomfortable the person is with you there's a okay you're gonna let me go is this is odd now this is not to a stranger but this is this is someone who you would hug opposed to the Pat is is is the hug that to me is wild but here's a here's another wild one that men do this I learned this from Robin Dunbar also in his book friendship is and and if you see two men talking to each other at a party out on the street they normally stand at at like a 120 degree angle rarely do they stand like this never would they stare like this because going back to us on the Serengeti right this is very confrontational right this means we're about to kill each other you know but like this we're safe you know if we cheat our bodies like this the 100 Twin Creek and and if you notice that men do that all the time now ladies walk right up how you doing girl you know but men it's like okay yeah yeah yeah don't hug me yeah yeah yeah so but but the these see these are all things that we we laugh and we joke about but it suggests why we could have challenges in our intimate relationships one of the things I've been curious about that I have a lot of question marks around is this idea of compatibility and who who we're compatible with are we just you know because when we think about dating we often think about it like we're trying to find this perfect individual that we could kind of draw on a piece of paper that has all of these particular qualities we think we know who we're looking for um is that true what what do I need to know about like what truly makes someone compatible because I think once upon a time for sure for sure I would have said I want my partner to be probably like me right I would have said earlier if I can run a huge business so we can talk about it in bedtime and right I didn't think that's the case anymore yeah yeah I mean my my joke is that most men who came to us right they want themselves with a vagina pretty much that's pretty much what they're looking for right um so uh this is a topic that's you know I've been studying forever and there's a lot of different thoughts around it like if you just think about dating apps they spent an enormous amount of money trying to perfect the algorithm to you know the matching algorithm it's all about that and if you look at the success rate so the percentage of people who are using dating apps and then end up in a committed or committed relationship or marriage and then stay in that for a fixed amount of time like 10 years it's like less than two percent so you think okay so they haven't gotten it right there's certain matchmakers that profess to have almost near 100 success rates you say what do they do you know I have some friends who just say I can just look at you and tell and you're like whatever like you know but over time there are certain areas that I firmly believe firmly believe determine whether or not you have strong compatibility right so one we've already talked about attachment style yeah I think attachment style incredibly important we've talked about values values incredibly important that's the rule book to life right another part of it is your ability to communicate so there's this Theory called decide versus slide right it's a theory that a lot of uh you know you have you have people like John cottman's behind this would be you've people in the states who have looked at when you're with your partner can you make a decision together on anything let's say you're with your partner and you decide okay we're going on vacation can you actually make decisions on where you're going without killing each other like can you decide what you're going to eat without killing each other like can you actually make collaborative decisions that is deciding versus sliding what a lot of relationships a lot of couples do is they say okay no you decide that you'd pick where we're going to go I'll decide where we're going to do right it's a slide it's not a collaborative so when you were uh dating when you're engaged it's very important to begin to look at are you making decisions together do you have the ability to make decisions together right deciding versus sliding very important another one that's touchy for a lot of people but it is what it is is you know do you have physical attraction there's a massive debate I don't understand why there's still a debate over this is that every bit of science suggests to us that if you have zero I'm talking about zero physical attraction it's going nowhere like it's going nowhere but if you have minimal physical attraction it doesn't mean rip the clothes off energy but if you have minimal physical attraction then that could build because you could be you know you could be sapiosexual where it's the intellect that drives you but you still have to have a minimal level of physical attraction and then what we see is that over time attraction can definitely grow but it needs to start somewhere so you think about physical attraction you think about the ability to make decisions compatibility in values also attachment style these become I think the foundational pieces to having a a compatible relationship but then there's this small little piece that I want to throw out and this is some studies that have been done in the U.S that I find to be fascinating is the marriage rate you know in the UK as well it it hovers you know between let's say 35 and 50 depending on who who you're talking to or should I say the divorce rate does 35 to 50 so the idea is there that almost half of people who get together end up getting a divorce on average now if you were to just take out couples who have been engaged for two years what do you think that does to the divorce rate so they've been engaged for two years and then they get married uh I think the divorce rate goes down exactly it goes down dramatically some people say it goes down to 20 20 22 right chance of getting divorced if you've been if you had a long engagement yes now why would that be the reason why is because you're able to test out all of these theories you're able to see your partner in the most adverse circumstance and see do they still show up as as yeah can they still make a decision with me you know or do they emotionally shut down and and they go away so then when you look at why or the couples where you see divorce being prevalent it's in couples in one of two categories one they've known each other for a year or less right it's quick or when I say no each other they've been a committed relationship for a year less or they've been in committed relationship for like 10 years and it's like basically you know it was an ultimatum and that's the reason why why they were married so the two years of Engagement I think is incredibly important because it allows you to test out these compatibility metrics two things there so the first one I wanted to just jump back to because I found it really interesting and it's something I've thought about a lot because of some of my friends and my circle is can you be because you talked about physical attraction can you be physically attracted to somebody but then not have sexual attraction uh okay I say this because I remember in a past relationship I was physically attracted to her but sexually I just it just didn't work and that's why that relationship ended she was this beautiful girl her her breath like her mind her intellect she was super smart she was super funny she was just everything I think there's a point before we went to have sex that I thought this is it this is the one we then went to have sex and I I've never said this before I remember getting up and going over to my phone and like afterwards like and saying to one of my best mates I just get I don't think I can ever see her again see I wonder how much of this though plays into to to to foreplay really because have you heard have you heard about uh erotic blueprint I've heard about it I've heard it on that goop show okay yeah yeah it was it was on group two really yeah I watched that yeah so you know so and and I I buy into that theory which you know the overall premise is is that you know we all um we we all become sexually stimulated in different ways yeah right and the the thought is that men are just ready all the time like you know yeah it's like we're right like we're just ready you know come on in the room like we're just ready but that's not the case you know some of us it's about you know contextual you know some of us and this is men and women right it's some of it it's it's it's it's it's romantic you know some is you you need something that to people would call bizarre you know going on Kink yeah some BDSM you know going on so so that's why I wonder how much of that was about sexual stimulation in that situation versus you not being sexually attracted to the person so I wish we could almost go back and I could be your sexual surrogate unfortunately yeah she's got a baby now it made me pivot but I think you're actually spot on because what I came to learn a couple of years later was that I had this one sort of one-dimensional view of what sex was and then as I said on this podcast once before when I started viewing sex as potentially a different set of languages yes I thought [ __ ] I'm speaking English maybe she's speaking Spanish yes there you go you know and I need to learn a new language in order to have an effective uh um sexual conversation everything changed absolutely and it changed for one of my best friends too because he was having a similar issue with his sex life and I said what if you just saw it as like your girlfriend speaks a different sex language you're speaking one and you're like ah I'm unsatisfied because she's speaking Spanish and she's going uh I'm unsatisfied she wants touch she wants the the 30-minute non-penetrative build up yes you want to tie her up you want to gag it gag her and whip it and all that kind of kinky BDSM stuff right you need to talk you need to talk in the language another language and then also too because you drop penetration in there yeah this is something that most men I mean yeah men we need to know this is that the vast majority 70 to 80 of women need clitoral stimulation not just penetrative and I and and see I mean this is see this is this is where um the feedback once again we have no feedback loop you know porn that is our teacher yeah yeah you know that's our teacher and what we have to understand is is no there are I love what you're saying there are different languages sexual languages you have to understand how your partner the language that they speak sex in and you have to deliver it and that's also why communication is the Bedrock of all relationships it really is yeah that's so true thinking about how I could have fixed that situation um because I you're right I totally dismissed it and I didn't do any work that was the very much characteristic of my younger self which was if something and this is relationship sex whatever it was if something isn't perfect now go go just run don't do any work to like to have the conversation to to fix it to have empathy for someone else might have a different opinion or a different bias or a different attachment style if it's not perfect I would Dash yeah I'll go in search of perfect which doesn't exist yeah and but this is I mean you know this is all of us this this is immaturity yeah and that's that's the beauty of learning you know as you grow older on that point of seeking Perfection um and I asked it a second ago but we got we got one off on the sex thing um um do we know what we're looking for are people good at saying this is what I want Hells no we are terrible we're all biased when it when it comes to to love you know I've done a lot of research around biases and when it comes to love it's like we're wearing the foggiest glasses known to you know known known to human beings we're terrible when it comes to making any type of rational decision around our love life you know normally we are looking for ourselves like we literally are are looking for ourselves it's it's funny to me um when you see someone when you ask someone well what is your type which I hate that phrase but you say well what is your type and typically people will describe someone who's very much like themselves very much like themselves in so many of these categories and so we we are horrendously bad at not only identifying what works well with us but then making selection and on top of that most women don't make the selection it's typically the man who makes the selection and this is where I say that what I like what I'm seeing now is more women are are being are consciously choosing who and what they want in their relationship opposed to being the ones who are always selected why does that happen why am why are women not choosing is it because yeah because yeah I mean it's it's it's it's because of you know the craziness of of of the world and how we've evolved you know if you think about it was the pill that was one of the first Liberation points for women when it came to when it came to dating I mean and you think about it's that's not that long ago we're talking about the 60s we're talking about the 70s really when the when the when the pill became in Vogue you know if you will at least in the United States and what that allowed was for women to finally have a little bit of choice when it came to dating before that it was it was virtually men making the selection making the choice you're mine or you're pregnant so you're definitely mine and that was it and then you saw a little bit of Liberation come from the pill which was incredible but then also what's great now is the dating apps I know the dating apps get a lot of a lot of stick for whatever reasons and yes we should always hold dating apps accountable but what's beautiful is that you do have dating apps where you have given women a lot more choice and control in the dating experience which is important and even when you look at the studies and you look at the dating app ecosystems that are that are led by women they're safer they're less crude you know the list goes on and on interesting so are you saying that we contrast is is tends to be better for compatibility than finding someone who's a replication of yourself uh all right that's a good one so a bit of a bit of contrast right a bit of it it's almost like going back to the weak tie Theory you know you want someone I think well let me say this the the best matches I've seen are based on that blueprint that I outline from attachment style all the way down to physical attraction but then context also plays a large role you know if I were to place you on a desolate island with someone I guarantee that person's gonna be the love of your life after you know I don't have babies you can have lots of babies they're gonna be you know you're so you're gonna think they're your soul mate right so context plays a large large role which is why it's interesting to see how politics plays a role in dating you know just 20 years ago politics was insignificant in dating it was not a topic that was brought up definitely not brought up on a first date you know if your partner was on it was has an opposing political view it's completely fine today it's one of the top metrics behind whether or not you want to match someone this is politics there have been some really interesting studies that showed that I mean even how sexually obsessed men are right we still would turn that well it depends on on who you're talking to but there's a significant percentage of men but a vast majority of women who would not have sex with someone that they find physically attractive but yet have opposing political beliefs I mean that that but that's the context that's the day and age that we live in so so context I think plays it plays a role as well do we have to work hard to find someone because I think there's there's kind of a prevailing narrative that Serendipity will solve it for us the world has changed tremendously we don't have we don't go to church like we used to we don't have these pubs or that sort of institutions of community in our lives so we're like predominantly more lonely than ever living in full White Walls in big old cities alone how do we have to work hard to find that person do we have to put in work yeah that's that's a great question I think we should I think we should put in the work I think that we should put effort towards anything that we have interest in so if a romantic interest is something that you want to have you you should put the work in but I don't necessarily think it's about putting the work into someone else it's about putting the work into you right and just elevating you optimizing you making you the best you can be upping your communication right understanding how to build emotional ties right understanding how to make great decisions understanding how to be a great listener critical thinker right all of these things are going to help you in all aspects of life and definitely in your romantic life so that's the whole that's where the hard work needs to go in but we're in an interesting place because every generation believes their generation had it the hardest when it comes to finding a spouse this is throughout time talk to my grandfather my grandfather oh man you won't believe how hard I had it you know and my grandfather had three options three options three options right small village in Jamaica three options three people but what I find interesting is there's a book Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz and he's the less is more right and what's interesting is that we have more options today than say my grandfather had in his day but it's we have less satisfaction in the choices we make because we believe we have endless Choice that's the real problem that we have so you think about you go on to a dating app right how many people can you swipe through in a dating app endless it's endless you you could literally 10 000 if you want to and the thought is that you have an option all ten thousand are option so because you have ten thousand options and you pick one there's less value that you have in the one but if I flipped it around maybe this is the idea see I should pitch you on this idea right now all right dating app yeah this is my pitch dating app but you only get three options a week interesting what do you think what do you think because here so here's my thought oh so so here's my thought right the thought is that you place more value in the option you choose right and that's ultimately I think what the challenge is in this day and age it's about we think you know we're placing less value because we believe that we have we have endless option so true the the issue with the idea is in a world where there are other apps like if that app existed and it was the only app then it would be the conversion rate from first date to marriage I think would be considerably harder and higher however in a world where I can also use Tinder or hinge when they're going to give me ten thousand options I think people will always choose option so I think would have a problem getting users because they'd go well I'd rather have a thousand guys to choose from or a thousand women to choose from um but but your point is so spot-on that a lack of options um means we can we'll invest more and work harder on the ones we do have to make to make them work whereas if I if I meet you on a date and I don't feel like it's Perfection okay [ __ ] this I'll I've got 37 men in my Tinder DMS that wanted to meet me as well so I could try one of them yep and there's always we're always contending with the false highlight real x uh reality of those 36 other men right because they looked perfect they did they chose the best three selfies yep and they had he had a Rolex on and he you know so and then you meet him and you go [ __ ] yeah but I'm gonna go to the 36 others yeah yeah exactly and that's a horrific spiral um another question I had was about honesty from the jump you go on a first date you meet someone how honest should I be yeah should I tell them about my childhood trauma on the first day it's like is that being authentic or is that offloading yeah yeah well you know Chris Rock said it best you know when you meet someone especially on a date you're not meeting them you're meeting their representative you know so from that standpoint we have to understand that there is a boundary negotiation that happens especially on these first dates and it is that that tennis game again right so what you're trying to do ultimately is you're trying done and let me even back up can I say this about for one is that I think we I think most of us do the first date completely wrong entirely wrong we set ourselves up from the jump to fail miserably and be disappointed and the reason why is because it the the first date is too intricate it's too big you know it's dinner but to prepare for dinner I'm gonna buy a new whatever you know I'm gonna get my hair done you know I'm gonna get this I'm gonna buy this new thing I'm gonna get the car wash I'm gonna do all this stuff we've spent we've invested so much that we've set ourselves up for failure also a first date quite honestly over dinner is an interview it always turns into an interview and then the culture I've noticed in the UK is fascinating is that this is not everyone but typically I notice is we're going to get completely pissed before the date like so we can talk to each other so we're just gonna drink drink drink drink drink okay now let's talk to each other and so it becomes we set ourselves up for having a very costly date in time effort res all resources instead it sounds so simple I like meetups let's not let's even take the pressure off of of the date situation let's call it a meet-up 30 minutes let's have coffee right the reason why I love that or a walk sounds stupid right no a walk for 30 minutes let's just go walk at lunch let's go go take a walk the reason why I love that is because the expectation is so much lower in that situation so much lower the cost so much lower right so the investment right so much lower so therefore that return on investment potentially so much higher but then also psychologically what I love is is happening is is if it's coffee caffeine if it's a walk it's in endorphins going right those help us to bond right opposed to alcohol that's a depressant right it's it's it's doing it's doing the opposite so in terms of elucidating ourselves for great conversation and preparing ourselves for Success a walk or a coffee is great the other part of that is I've had mil like not Millions I've had let's say thousands of clients who have said okay tell in particular this is for ladies telling men tell the guy that you want to meet him for coffee in the day a lot of guys I'm not doing that yeah because they want to get laid they're like I'm not doing that right so right away it's a good filter it's a great filter it's an easy filter for you you know so that's part of that and then if it works well and when I say if it works well is you just need two things on that Meetup are you physically attracted to them minimally and then did they listen to you so if you have the ability to communicate they listened critically you listen critically and you're physically attracted that is chemistry because we have a hard time defining what is chemistry you say what is chemistry what's the buzz what does that mean and everyone's like I don't know I don't know it is I think one part physical attraction Mutual physical attraction another part critical listening listening if you have that you have enough to move forward and then see each other in another environment you know it's so true because I'm just reflecting on how many of my friends both men and women will come back from a date that didn't work out and just resentfully talk about how much they've spent and how and how much it cost like how long it costs them yes and how much money it costs them and the preparation or the facial and the hair and the nails and and they sit there resentfully and so you you you're right bringing that level of expectation to a to a first encounter you know mo goddess out here and said we're happy when our expectations of how life is supposed to be going go are met and we're unhappy when our expectations of how life is supposed to be going go unmet I'm coming in with one ahead of an expectation that you're going to be my husband yes I've put in all the work all the investment the time three hours and then if you fall anywhere below that for whatever reason I'm probably looking for you know oh God it's not you're almost setting yourself up to fail by by doing such a huge initial upfront investment yes and you know what you you were making I think a a brilliant brilliant point there is that when you've made that investment what you end up doing is you're looking for reasons to weed them out yeah because you're like oh man I did all this yeah and his trainers yeah what trainers is this guy where oh my God you see the train those are last year's trade I bought new shoes for this year yeah yeah it's crazy crazy crazy crazy what what are you struggling with in your relationship ah man you know it is time really time quality time it is it is it is I would say time but quality time be because I am you know it right now I'm predominantly doing television work and and I've been in TV now you know for uh since Oprah you know so 12 13 years it's so so it's it's been a while and one thing I've noticed about the television space is that there are moments when you're hot and their moments when you're not and when you're hot it's that's the time to leverage and so you have to you're already working your ass off but you better work it off even more and so I'm in that zone right now I mean I'm blessed I'm co-hosting two shows I'm contributing to three shows one in the states two here in the UK so it's one of these where I'm constantly work every day every day in work every day I'm working so that time with my wife that time with my children that's the time that I wish I can get some back how are you negotiating that how are you serving the ball over the net in terms of the tennis analogy to make sure things aren't you know she still feels like a priority and your family still feel like a priority yeah that's a great one I mean finding those moments and making sure that we're in or should I say making sure that we're intentional about the moments that we do have right so this morning for example before I came over here we had breakfast together went out had breakfast together sat talked with the dog right those moments are immeasurable right those moments right to have those moments together um I dropped my boys off at school right walk you walk them 10 minutes to school 10 minutes the other to the bus those moments immeasurable you know when I was you know getting helping them dress tying their ties those moments and making sure that I'm fully in those moments not I'm in that moment but I'm on my phone at the same time I'm in that moment oh I've got to post this on Instagram no phone goes away right phone goes away and so making sure that the moments that we have that I'm fully I'm fully in them and then also I think gratitude is something that is is very important and I've been practicing this for I don't know six seven years but being appreciative of those moments and then reflecting upon those you know so every morning the first thing I do in the morning is I I consciously think about the moments yesterday that I'm appreciative of and what I find myself doing is I'm rarely thinking about oh I'm so happy this happened at work or I'm so happy about the ratings of this it's always I'm so happy that my son who's 11 held by hand walking to the bus he's 11 but he still held my hand you know I'm so happy that my son came over and he asked me to tie his tie he gave me a kiss on the cheek and said thank you Dad like those are the moments that really get to me and that's when I I wake up thinking about and I'm able to think about it because I was in the moment fully and what's talk to me about the near term then what are you working on in the near term I know you've got we don't even talk about it today but you got multiple revenue streams all over the place you're an entrepreneur you've got two two or three TV shows that you're working on simultaneously which is absurd yes all of these things going on in your life what am I what give me a picture of your full your professional portfolio per se okay so so there are a lot of things happening uh and they're all in different categories so so on the television side I am I'm co-hosting Married at First Sight UK and I'm also co-hosting celebsgo dating we're in our 11th series of subsco dating in our seventh uh of uh of Merit for a site so so so those are those are big entities I contribute to the Lorraine show oh yeah and also to steps to pack lunch here and then in the United States I'm a contributor to Good Morning America right so that by itself are those are a couple full times right but that's that's kind of like the TV side do you have a podcast I do I I did like a years ago I I did but I mean quite honestly looking at this and you know you are and and this is me not trying to trying to gas you up is that you are incredibly inspiring in credibly inspiring and I and you know what's interesting is I I I I look at you and I think okay God this guy's younger than me you know how is the he's he's so much younger than me and he's inspiring you right and what it is is that you pursue excellence to a degree I don't know if I've ever witnessed I'm talking about I've worked with some of the top billionaires in the world I've interviewed I was a business columnist for USA Today and I interviewed some of the most successful entrepreneurs like period and your level of pursuit of Excellence surpasses them where's my billion yeah but see it's not about the boots but it's not about that yeah you know you're and and and and so all I say is that so you are incredibly inspiring to me and to to many people and to the question around the podcast is part of that inspiration is like this is a great space you know to get into so that's something that is in the back of my mind but I'm not actively pursuing it that's very kind it makes me feel really uncomfortable that's why I cracked up it's a huge compliment and I I received the compliment and I I believe what you're saying it just you know makes you feel uncomfortable because I you know I don't know why it just makes me feel uncomfortable when I when I I really appreciate it and I believe every word you said um I believe you meant every word you said um and I know that we are I think the reason why our team will be successful in pretty much anything we do is because of what you said so it's because I think we care more about the small stuff yes and that's where for me Excellence begins we can all make the big decisions to start a podcast as a big decision it doesn't guarantee success it's all the tiny things that people that are easy to do but also easy not to do that end up defining your trajectory and over the last I think two years in particular actually because of this podcast and actually because it's so data Centric and I look at lines and charts and how one decision that like the team and I make or what that Jack makes can just tilt the direction of the line right and I go and it's been this reinforcer to me that in fact the the most important things and and the biggest opportunity is the smallest things everyone else nobody else cares about yes they'll be thinking about let's get a bigger guest or like you know let's get you know the big stuff but it's the smallest stuff where we have our opportunity yes um so you've identified something that I hold very true and I consider to be my professional religion um and I appreciate the compliment it means a lot no no definitely and and you just I think destroyed a myth that exists as well and that is that we should be sweating the small stuff yeah 100 yeah you know the whole oh don't swear no sweat the small stuff because that's where greatest change comes the same thing with your romantic relationships people I don't support the spot no that one miss hug you know that one missed I love you let's correct it now correct it now yeah so so powerful I we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest they don't know who they're leaving it for okay okay so it's kind of a through line all the guests having a conversation with each other um and I don't get to read the question until I open the book um when was the last time you cried of Happiness oh my gosh cryd of happiness oh my gosh I know I mean I've cried tears of sadness recently um you've corrected some sound just recently yeah man I mean my sister-in-law passed away two weeks ago uh Mike I've had I mean I've had a string of passings in my family that is just devastating devastating first funeral I had to plan you know my wife and I planned uh just I mean just yeah one of those so so I you know I think I think of tears of sadness what did that teach you about life is someone young and short goes like this I've uh I've been at two Death Beds one of someone who I would call incredibly young and another one who someone who's lived a full life they both said the same thing and it haunts me they both said this thing goes by quick life goes by quick that's all we get and it gives me chills because I think about them looking at me and that's part of why I think I have lived the life or live life the way I live it and why I focus so much in the moment and why I try to express how I feel about people in the moment because we may never get the moment again you know um so so yeah it's it's taught me I mean to write a eulogy to have to write a eulogy you know for someone so young it it did I will say some practical things though it taught me well it it taught me we all need Wills we all need a will I think that we all should be consciously aware of how we want to be laid to rest it's a major debate that happens in the family and you know to have that consciously thought out so that we so that people can your loved ones can honor you in the way that you want to be honored I think is incredibly important um so to have a will and to have pre-thought some of this it's it's not morbid I think we have to understand this is part of our humanities that we will not be here you know forever so those are thoughts that are practical thoughts that I've taken and now I have a will now I've written you know how where I want to be buried how I want to be buried these are incredibly important um I cried like I cried for it could be 30 40 minutes straight at my wedding I just cried I cried the entire wedding I just cried and cried and cried and cried all the pictures of me crying right so uh those are those are probably that's the last tears of tears of happiness but I'm I'm incredibly happy but more than that I'm appreciative you know I'm appreciative of life and it's actually the tears of sadness that's allowed me to be appreciative well Paul thank you um my team met you a couple of weeks ago and they are obsessed with you and it's and it's funny because it's not necessarily it's because of who you were as a person to all of them how you treated them how wonderful you are how you know it's all the small stuff it's kind of the stuff you said at the start about that Underdog and reaching out to the person that might be stood up against the wall it's all about stuff where everyone in this building I wasn't here I think I was out of the country if I remember correctly but when you came to this building they were just you converted them into raving fans and I don't know how long you were here or how much you paid them a lot okay that explains it they were just all absolute super fans of yours and your whole philosophy you said something you said something to someone I'm not entirely sure who it was you know because we'd asked we'd essentially ask you to come and help us with something with a project we're working on which I'm very excited about um and you said something almost about like Karma where you were you do you do things for people because you kind of believe in planting that seed yes you don't know when it will yes it will flourish or when it will you know come to fruition but you just do good with the belief that like Karma yes and such an important way to live and you actually helped me to realize that because the impact you had on all these people here you turned all of them into disciples and they're like fairly influential people that that you know they're well connected we've got a lot of interesting people coming here you know several days a week amazing and then today having had a chance to sit with you and ask you some questions that really a lot of the questions I ask for my own selfish pursuit of trying to figure [ __ ] out you've you've changed a lot in me and you're going to change a lot in my relationships I'm partly sat here you know wine in this podcast up so I can go fix some [ __ ] and I think a lot of people that have listened to this conversation will be feeling the same way tremendous value tremendously kind man um even when the cameras are off you're just a class Class Act um and I have no doubt that you're going to get everything you deserve that we talked about that sort of like long tail lagging and value yes you're gonna it's gonna be your future is gonna be immense yeah I'm honored I'm appreciative I love you I love your team right I really do uh and um it's an honor to to be here so thank you so much for having me I and all of my team love you too I can speak on behalf of all of them thank you Paul thank you thank you quick one we have a brand new sponsor on this podcast which I'm very excited to tell you about they're a brand called Blue Jeans by Verizon and they are a video conferencing and collaboration tool that has changed the game for our team as someone who's on calls pretty much eighty percent of the day building my business is and speaking to my teams all over the world it's the guaranteed security that differentiates blue jeans from all of the other options that are out there in terms of video conferencing their Enterprise grade security means you can protect your organization from malicious attacks and establish real trust with everyone that joins your meeting and that is something there are so many things that make sense and make blue jeans um a better option than the sort of competitors out there and I'll be talking about all of those aspects those features and the reasons why I use blue jeans in the coming episodes if you want to check it out you can head to www.blueens.com to learn more [Music] foreign [Music]