I just started living that Hollywood lifestyle. I was out almost every night with my roommates, partying, getting drunk. I flew across the world a few weeks later to Rome. It was there that I saw the beauty of our faith. I started hanging out with all these Catholics in Hollywood.
I didn't even know they existed. As an actress, my roommates and I just hung out by the pool all day long. So my daily uniform, it was a bikini. I started...
to learn about modesty. And I'm like, you know what? I have my business degree and it seems like people want this and it doesn't exist.
So let me just make my own business. Jessica Ray, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me.
It's so nice to see you again. I know it's been many, many years. I think it was at a decade that we figured out. Probably more. In Los Angeles.
In Los Angeles, yeah. Through some mutual friends. That's right.
All right. So some people already know about your work and who you are, but some people are going to discover you're lovely inside and out. You've founded a modest swimsuit brand and you have an amazing, I think, testimony personally and a lot of insight on what beauty and modesty even mean.
So we haven't really talked about modesty on the podcast. So you are breaking the ice for us. Thank you for being here to do it. Okay, so where should we start?
Let's start with who is Jessica Rae? Who is she? Well, I am a wife and mother. I have three beautiful babies, even if doctors told me I would never ever conceive or get pregnant or have any children at all.
There's a miracle story behind that if you want to hear it later. And I'm a business person and a follower of Christ. And what's your business? I started a company called Ray Swimwear.
Now it's just called Jessica Ray because we've sort of branched out into other types of clothing. So it's more than swimwear. But I have been doing that for maybe 16, 17 years now.
And so you said you doctor said you couldn't have three kids, but you have three. Congratulations. Thank you.
Did you always want to be a mom? I've always just wanted to be a mom my whole life. I got married. And I discovered that I have endometriosis really bad. So went to a Catholic doctor and had a procedure to remove the polyps, thinking that that would work.
And they were like, oh, it just created more scar tissue. So then we decided to do another procedure with another Catholic doctor. And after that surgery, she said that I would never get pregnant.
It was so, she didn't even say like, unless there's a miracle. I'm thinking. You're a Catholic doctor, like why aren't you at least giving me some sort of hope?
But she showed me when she did the surgery, she did a video like of the insides and she's like, do you see all of this scar tissue? There is literally nothing that can be done. And if you have another procedure, it's just going to create more scar tissue.
So I'm not a person who typically gets like so sad or depressed or anything like that, but it was, it was a very dark time. for a couple of weeks but we had a trip planned down to Mexico City with one of our priest friends and five of my girlfriends and my husband and I'd never been down to Mexico City. We had a little pilgrimage and we prayed in front of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and I just remember sitting there staring at her because you know she's pregnant in that image and staring at her womb and being so like mad like I did everything, God. I did everything the doctors told me to do. We did the injections and the, you know, the two surgeries to remove the polyps and the endometriosis.
And I ate all the organic things and I didn't eat the sugar and I didn't eat the desserts. And now I'm never going to be pregnant. And I was just so mad. And I said, I give up. I give up.
I will not do any of this anymore. And I sobbed. And then I went home.
And I realized that I should have gotten my cycle when we were in Mexico. And so I took a pregnancy test thinking, I'm going to start my cycle on this test. I just know it because that's exactly what would happen every time.
But it was positive. And I called my sister because our mom had passed away already by that time. She was a labor and delivery nurse. So I would have called my mom. I called my sister who had already had two babies.
And I said, I'm pregnant. And she said, what's your due date? And I said, I don't even know how to figure that out.
And she said, what was the first day of your last cycle? And so I told her and she said, okay, your due date is December 12th. Wow.
And I dropped the phone. I was like, and she didn't understand because she's not a practicing Catholic, but I was like, that's the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe. And so it was a total, I called the doctor who told me I would never get pregnant.
And she, it was so weird. She was just like, oh, okay, well, you should probably start some progesterone so you don't have a miscarriage. And I'm like, are you not going to say something to me about how you threw me into this spiral of darkness for two weeks and told me I would never get pregnant. But we had an ultrasound and I was so afraid that I would have a miscarriage. But I had a trip planned a couple weeks later to, we had a private audience with Pope Benedict.
And we met with him on his birthday, which was in April. And we sang happy birthday and I gave him some chocolate. And then it was my turn to talk to him.
And I said, I am pregnant and it's a miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe. And I quickly told him the story. Will you bless my baby and my womb? And he was like, si, si. So he gave me a blessing.
We went home, had my son in December, thought it would be our. only child. Six months later, I was pregnant again. And my daughter's due date was Pope Benedict's birthday.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Amazing. And then we have my son and he has no specific miracle attached to him, but he's the cutest. He's the cutest. He's just adorable.
That is amazing. So that was, um, it's, it's a story that I tell to people who aren't even Catholic and that hairs on their arms will stand up. I mean, you can't make this stuff up.
And God is just, I think maybe he knows I'm the type of person that he kind of has to like smack in the head to be like, that was me. So that I don't try to claim it for myself. But amazing.
Really, truly. He's so good. And I'm just so blessed. We did an episode with Father Spitzer on Our Lady of Guadalupe and the science behind the image.
And it's unbelievably incredible. It is incredible. I've heard his talk.
And. But miracles are still happening. I know. Like yours.
I know. We eventually want to go down and hold my son up who's now 13. Thank you, Mary. Sing the Lion King song. But yeah, it's he's, you know, every child is a gift and a miracle.
But when multiple doctors tell you that you will never, ever get pregnant, and then you do, it's, it's really. really, truly, you know, just a miracle. It's amazing. And tell me about your work before starting your swimwear company. So before I started the swimwear company, I actually grew up in Orange County and I majored in accounting.
And then I graduated and discovered that I did not want to be an accountant. So I thought, well, what can I do? Let me just go to grad school and spend more money trying to figure out what I want to do.
So I ended up moving up to LA to get my MBA and started working at a TV film production company as an accountant. And the in-house manager, talent manager, kept telling me that I should act. And I was like, ah, leave me alone. I'm very happy with my calculator and my spreadsheets. And she would not leave me alone.
Please just go on an audition, go on an audition. And so I finally agreed to go on one audition if she would just Leave me alone after that. Thinking nothing of it. And I went and I booked it. And it was a National Network commercial for Kellogg's Raisin Bran Crunch.
Delicious. Yes. Which I do not allow my children to eat. Not good.
Is that because of the non-organic oats or what is it? Oh, just all of it. All of it. Okay.
But we, this was back a long time ago when National Network commercials. paid great residuals before all of the new media internet stuff. And it pretty much paid for my graduate degree at Loyola Marymount University. And so I was like, wow, this is great. I mean, it's easy work.
I'm just going to keep doing it. So the manager there got me a commercial agent and I did commercials for a year. Right before I graduated, I decided, let me try to get a TV film agent. And I sent my headshot out. And only one person would take me because I hadn't really done any acting before.
And my very first audition was for the Power Rangers. And I booked it. Wow.
So I had to choose between finishing my graduate degree. I had two classes left and becoming a series regular on this very popular children's TV show as a Power Ranger. And, of course, I chose the TV show.
I did go back and finish my degree, which made my parents very happy. But then I just started living that Hollywood lifestyle. I was out almost every night with my roommates, partying. getting drunk, dancing like a lunatic till the wee hours of the morning. And then one day, this guy in my acting class was like, what are you doing?
What are you doing tomorrow? Like, why? Where's the party? I'll bring my roommates.
And he's like, oh, I'm going to this thing called prayer and pasta. And I'm like, what is that? He's like, oh, first we pray the rosary and then we eat pasta. And I'm like, oh, I grew up praying the rosary. I grew up Catholic.
but was never really very well formed. And I like pasta and I didn't have anything going on. So I decided, yeah, I'll go.
I'll try it out. I'll meet you there. I went early because I didn't want to go in without him.
And I waited in the parking lot at this place called Family Theater in Hollywood. And I did not see him go in. And I kept looking at my time. I'm like, now I'm going to be late and I'm going to interrupt the rosary.
And I didn't want to draw attention to myself. So I went in and I prayed the rosary with. complete strangers, which was very uncomfortable for me. I had only ever prayed it with my grandparents and my family.
And then when it was time for pasta, I decided to try to sneak out because this guy, his name was Jose. He never showed up and I never saw him ever again. Wow.
So this other guy. Is he real? Do you think he was real?
I don't know. I mean, I have no idea. I don't even remember his last name to be able to look him up and Jose. Were you texting with him about where to go? This was like before.
People were texting all the time. So he just told you, this is the location. That was it.
It starts at this time. And you're like, OK, I'm going to just be open, check it out. Right, right. Wow.
And I was so out of my comfort zone praying with strangers. And so I just really wanted to leave. And on my way out, I heard another guy talking about how he was in seminary in Rome. And he had to be emergency flown into Los Angeles for back surgery. And I had just met with a surgeon at Cedars-Sinai because I have scoliosis.
I have a really bad back and I was on the fence. Do I do it? Do I not?
So I gave him my card. I'm like, I'm not trying to hit on you. I just overheard your story about your back surgery. I'd love to know who your surgeon was and if you would recommend him or her. So I ended up meeting with this guy for coffee to talk about his surgery a week later.
And he's like, I have to go to Rome. I have to clean up my seminary room. I can't travel alone.
I have back problems. And Being as crazy as I was, I was like, oh, I'll go with you. So I flew across the world a few weeks later to Rome and stayed in a convent, which was, you know, I had never, we hung out with priests and seminarians, which I had never done before in my life.
I'm like, oh, these are normal people. And I met a bunch of nuns and staying in a convent. And I just, it was there that I saw the beauty.
of our faith, of our Catholic faith, and hanging out with all of these seminarians and going to these events and going to the Vatican and seeing the art and all the things, I just fell in love. And I'm like, I want to know more. I want to learn more. And this is my faith, and I know nothing about it.
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And I'm like, I want to know more. I want to learn more. And this is my faith and I know nothing about it. So I flew home and started hanging out with all these Catholics in Hollywood.
I didn't even know they existed and started doing ministry at the parish that was closest to my house. And one day I was going out with this seminarian guy and a bunch of other people. And I opened the door and he's like, what are you wearing? He's like, you can't wear that.
And I'm like, what do you mean? And it was a really short skirt. And he's like, you can't wear a skirt that's as small as a belt. And I was like, ew, ew, you're not my dad.
Don't talk to me like that. But I went in and I changed. And his comment just stuck in the back of my head.
And I couldn't, I was so mad. And I guess because I had such emotional feelings about it, it made me want to know why would he. Why does he think he has the right to say such a thing to me?
And that was my deep dive into modesty. So I started learning more about it. And as an actress in Hollywood, my roommates and I just hung out by the pool all day long waiting for auditions.
So my daily uniform was, it was a bikini. And I had drawers full of bikinis. And I started to learn about modesty. And I'm like, you know what?
I'm going to make a modest swimsuit because they just don't exist right now. The only one-piece swimsuits were for grandmas or for toddlers or babies at the time. And this was like 18 years ago.
And I have no background in fashion design. I cannot draw still to this day and I can't sew. I just have a really great team of people that I verbalize my designs to and they make it become reality. And so that's where the first...
design that I did was really just for myself to wear at the pool. And then all these people at my apartment building started asking, where did you get that? I love that.
And I thought, you know what? I have my business degree and it seems like people want this and it doesn't exist. So let me just make my own business.
And that was 18 years ago. That was about 18 years ago. How many swimsuits have you sold?
Oh my gosh. I don't even know. It was, so I gave a talk on YouTube called the evolution of the swimsuit.
years later and it went viral because people basically wanted to kill me. After hearing it, it was this eight or nine minute talk and they called me all sorts of horrific names and words and said I was a rape advocate and all these terrible things. So, you know, that's why things go viral.
People love it and people hate it. And after it went viral, The next day, everything on my website sold out and I had to start taking pre-orders and find a bigger factory. And then I think for five or six years, the talk just kept circulating every spring.
As soon as it would get hot outside, people would start sharing it. I think it's because no one wants to talk about modesty, right? They don't want to talk about it with their kids or with their friends or their spouse even sometimes.
So they'd rather just repost this video to their Facebook feed or their Instagram stories. And so that was my marketing. I didn't spend a dime on any other kind of marketing. It was just that one video that kept selling out our swimsuits year after year after year. All right.
I've got a lot of questions because I want to hear about what you said in that video because it's fascinating. Before that, though, you were talking about getting on this plane randomly with a seminarian that you met about back surgery. And I just, when you shared that, I just had to pause for a minute because I love Los Angeles. I went to school there.
You know, you and I are, you know, in Southern California right now. We love this area. I know you're not here anymore, but this is like a home for you as well. And I think there's something about, even LA particularly, but the industry, entertainment industry, this like radical openness that a lot of people have to opportunity where they're just going to say.
walk through whatever door seems to open and just see what happens. It's this love of adventure. Do you think that was, was that driving you or what, what do you make of that? I don't know.
I mean, I think about it now and I'm like, dude, he could have kidnapped me and killed me in Europe or something, you know? But my, my friends, you know, after sitting down with him for coffee, talking about his back surgery and he was a seminarian, his bishop had sent him to Rome from Detroit. And I was like, this guy is totally harmless, but my now sister-in-law.
And he has a broken back. So how bad can it be? Come on. And you're a Power Ranger at this point too. You're going to totally take care of yourself.
My sister-in-law and then a group of my girlfriends, when I told them, oh, I'm going to go to Rome in a few weeks with this guy. And they were like, and it wasn't, we weren't romantically interested in each other at all. And they were like, you're crazy. He's going to like be an ax murderer or something.
And they said, we have to meet him first. So they met him. We had an invitation to an NBA all-star party. This was the life that we were living.
And so I told him, hey, I'll get you on the list. Just come to this party. It was all NBA all-star players and then a bunch of beautiful girls and my former friend. And we get there.
He's like eating pizza like, oh, where am I right now? The girl with the back surgery is taking me to unload my dorm in Rome. So I go to the bathroom and I come back and my friends were like, oh, he's fine.
You can go to Rome with him. He's fine. And I said, why?
They're like, he didn't even drink. He just ate pizza. No, it was. I mean, it was really like that. We had just all arrived.
And I said. what happened? You guys were so worried. And they said, when you were in the bathroom, he told us that he's a virgin.
And I was like, first of all, why would he tell you that? That's so weird. But a virgin can still be an ax murderer. So, but this, you know, this is, it's like my roommates had never heard of such a thing that there could be a virgin walking around Los Angeles at the age of... 24 or however old he was.
And for some reason that made them think, oh, he's harmless. You could totally beat him up if you needed to. It was bizarre.
It was a weird time. So, and during this time you were doing the Power Ranger thing. It was, this was after the Power Rangers.
I was still acting though. So I was still guest starring and doing recurring roles on various, various shows. And it became more and more difficult for me because as an actress.
you know, you can't ever say no. If you say no, then your agent or manager will drop you and they'll just get the next person. And it really is, it's an industry where you truly feel objectified. You know, you go there thinking, oh, I'm unique. I am beautiful.
A lot of people are the, you know, the prom queen and all these things. They come from these small towns and they get to Hollywood because people told them. you're going to make it.
You're the most beautiful. You're the most talented. And then they get there and they realize, oh my goodness, so is everybody else.
And when you go to an audition, especially me back then, I would go to these specific ethnic auditions where they wanted Asian or they wanted Mexican or they wanted Indian. And my agent never knew really where to place me. But you walk into a room where everybody else looks exactly like you.
And they're probably. prettier, they have better hair, they're curvier or taller or whatever else the casting is looking for. And you start to feel, you know, God made us all unique and beautiful. And you don't feel that way at all.
You just feel like an object that your agent is thrown out there for these roles. So finally, when you do book one thing, or you do get an audition, and you're like, oh, I can't do that. Like I That's an example of something that you dealt with. Well, here's an example. So I booked a show that I didn't even audition for.
My manager called me and said, they're going to have a courier come and bring you the script. And it was a recurring role on a TV show. And I was like, that's weird.
I don't even read for this. So I get the script and the first page takes place in Cancun. And I'm like, so the first thing that went through my mind was, oh, no, they're going to want me to wear a bikini. because it's a beach thing, obviously. And I was like, I can't wear a bikini.
I make modest swimsuits and I don't wear bikinis anymore. So I told my agent and he's like, well, you go, just go and talk to them about it, but you might have to wear it. And I told him I'm not going to do the role if I have to wear it.
So I got there for the wardrobe fitting and I brought every single swimsuit. that I had of mine that was like a tankini two-piece thing or whatever, one piece. I brought it in and they were like, okay, go into the dressing room and we have a bunch of bikinis in there. And I looked at the wardrobe stylist and said, I can't wear a bikini.
She's like, what do you mean you can't wear a bikini? I said, I just don't wear them. I said, I don't feel comfortable in a bikini and I don't want to be in a bikini on television. And she said, well, what are you going to wear then? And I said, I brought like a luggage full of swimsuits.
And she said, well, put it on, but it's up to the director. It's not up to me. So I tried on maybe five or six of my one-piece swimsuits. And they were like, okay, that's fine.
You can wear that. And I was so relieved that they said yes. But there's the fear that you say no. And now I no longer have this fear.
I am still acting. doing little things, commercial things here and there. My kids also do ads with us.
Um, and I have no fear anymore of just saying, Nope. And if you don't want to represent us anymore, then, then you don't, but I'm not going to be a slave to this industry anymore. Whereas I feel scared, you know, that I'm going to get rejected and, and turned away. Um, The very best way to start your day is with a steaming cup of coffee, but not just any coffee.
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That's sevenweekscoffee.com. You are going to love this coffee and you're going to love this mission just as much. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I think it's an example to people listening because I think there's so much fear and not just in like entertainment world, but in any world of standing for your beliefs and standing up for truth or what's right.
And people... either just are quiet or they compromise or they just kind of delete themselves from the opportunity. They don't even try. Right.
But the fact that you showed up, you had a solution, you were polite about it and they ended up going with your solution. Right. And if they didn't, then I knew I had already made the decision beforehand.
I'm just not, I'm going to walk away. I'm going to walk away and just say no. Um, and really hold myself to that.
So. Did you, when you shared that story with like your roommates or other friends, Did you feel that people were, were people surprised? Like how could you have even brought your own swimsuits or what was kind of the reaction you got from friends?
At that time, I was already, um, just hanging out with all people of the same mindset. So, I mean, maybe there were a few people that didn't understand, but, um, you know, for the most part, everyone was super on board and cheering me on. And I do think it's.
that's why it's important to surround yourself with people who will support you and encourage you in your beliefs and your convictions when it comes to that kind of stuff. Because if I did get rejected, then of course there would be a feeling of sadness maybe, or, you know, who knows what, but then I have my friend, my friends there in my community saying, yeah, don't worry about it and supporting me in that decision. What was your bikini talk about?
The viral bikini video. So it was called The Evolution of the Swimsuit. And I basically talked about the origin of the bikini. And it was designed by a man named Louis Rayard, French man. And it was so explosive because no one had ever worn something like that before that he named it after an atomic bomb site, Bikini Atoll.
I don't know if I'm saying that correct. Um, but he couldn't find any models who would wear it. So he had to hire a stripper, um, or an exotic dancer maybe to, to model it. What year was this? For him.
It was, I want to say it was in the fifties. It's been a while since I gave the talk, but, uh, and then there was the sex, sexual revolution and the bikini became more widely accepted. But the, in the talk, I showed pictures of. Before that, women wore one-piece swimsuits. And even before that, women wore these crazy voluminous dresses that you would basically drown in.
You tried to swim in it. But they used bathhouses. It was a six-by-six-by-six sort of like hut on wheels and horses where people would bring them down to the water so that women could get out in their bathing costumes and get directly into the water so no one would see them.
Um. So I said in the talk that, you know, I'm not sure how we got from wearing a 36 square foot house to wearing barely 36 inches of fabric at the beach. If even that, some days or these days, I just came from Europe.
So people got really mad. You know, in the talk, I discussed how I believe we're made in the image and likeness of God and we're all made beautiful. At the end, I just asked, you know, how will you use your beauty, your God given beauty?
And it made people mad. It made people say that I, yeah, that I'm a rape advocate, that basically, if they're wearing a bikini, and they get raped, then I'm saying that they were asking for it, and they deserved it. And absolutely was not saying that at all.
You know, So that's where the controversy came from. This idea of how will you use your beauty? I love that question. It's such a powerful one. What does it, what does your, what's your take on the standards of modesty?
Because I'm sure people right now are listening and they, maybe some of them are like, hey, bikinis are not a big deal. It just has to be a more modest bikini. Right.
And then maybe other people are saying, listen, it's not about any particular clothing guideline because cultures are all different. It's really about just your heart. God only sees the heart.
So I'm just representing, you know, some of the views that I hear often, even from, you know, Christians or conservatives or whatever it may be. It's such an explosive topic. And I've given like two day conferences on this because I don't got time, Jessica.
Yeah, I don't think you can really talk about it in an hour allotted by whatever conference I go to speak about modesty. I wrote a book. It's like a coffee table style book that. sold out and I didn't reprint it. I'm working on updating it, but I co-wrote it with Leah Darrow, who I think you know.
And the first chapter is, it just talks about our inherent dignity, because I really think that the conversation has to start there. And a lot of people think about modesty and they think that it's about these rules, like two fingers below the collarbone. You can't show your elbows. You can't show your knees.
You can't wear pants ever. And I've had people tell me there's no way that you can design and create a modest swimsuit because the swimsuit can never, ever be modest. And women just shouldn't be wearing them.
So are those people recommending that women don't swim? I'm not sure if they recommend. I've heard some people say you should only swim in your own backyard pool where there's no one else around. And this is another reason that the talk went viral because it was very interesting to see.
I had to stop reading the comments because it drove me crazy. But some people were saying, oh, you're. advocating for rape and other people were saying those aren't modest her swimsuits aren't modest at all so it's like it's too modest or not modest enough and people get into these arguments even on our Facebook page or our Instagram page um Harris can you pull up a clip from the YouTube it's the history of the bikini the evolution of the bikini swimsuit but I never I didn't even know they were recording I didn't know they were recording it I didn't know that it was out there.
It was one of my friends who said, did you know your talk is on YouTube? This is the Q conference that you spoke at? It's not called Think, right?
They rebranded. They rebranded to Think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've actually never watched it myself.
Oh, really? Oh, wow. This is fun. Okay.
I can't stand to listen to myself. You sound great. Okay.
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A few years ago, male college students at Princeton University participated in studies of how the male brain reacts to seeing people in different amounts of clothing. Brain scans revealed that when men are shown pictures of themselves in different amounts of clothing, of scantily clad women, the region of the brain associated with tools such as screwdrivers and hammers lit up. Some men showed zero brain activity in the medial prefrontal cortex. which is the part of the brain that lights up when one ponders another person's thoughts, feelings, and intentions.
Researchers found this shocking because they almost never see this part of the brain shut down in this way. And a Princeton professor said, it's as if they're reacting to these women as if they are not fully human. It's consistent with the idea that they are responding to these photographs as if they were responding to objects, not people. Thank you.
In a separate Princeton study, when men viewed images of women in bikinis, they often associated with first-person action verbs, such as, I push, I grab, I handle. But when they saw images of women dressed modestly, they associated them with third-person action verbs, such as, she pushes, she grabs. Analysts at the National Geographic concluded that bikinis really do inspire men to see women as objects, as something to be used, rather than someone to connect with.
So, it seems that wearing a bikini does give a woman power, the power to... shut down a man's ability to see her as a person, but rather as an object. Okay, that was very powerful.
You have the data that you're sharing. Did anybody that was upset with you after this video respond to that particular point you were making about what the studies show? A lot of them said that, oh, in the studies, it was a bunch of rapists or pedophiles or, you know, and I was like, meaning they somehow only surveyed rapists. exclusively, not just men at large. They were already sexually aggressive men is what they had told me.
But I'm, and I'm telling you, I've never listened to this before. I'm like sweating over here watching myself because I hate listening to myself talk. But I didn't know that you could hear the men in the audience laughing. I just realized that as we're watching it.
And this was a Christian conference and most of the people, I would say 90% men who were entrepreneurs and or pastors or Christian speakers. And they laughed when I said the research, because, and I had some people tell me afterwards, you didn't need to cite research for that. Like, you know, they laughed because it was like a guilty laugh.
Like they know that that's the way that, you know, they're not rapists or sexually aggressive, you know. They're just saying, yeah, you know, that's kind of what comes across our mind when we see that. So anyway, I think that's really interesting. And I'd rather listen to them laughing than myself speaking.
You're doing great. I think that there's a lot of shame around this topic and people get very quickly defensive. And sometimes understandably so, because I do think there's a lot of extremes in our culture today. But I think the ground that you're staking, which is that… the bikini was extreme 50, 60, 70 years ago.
Now it's so ubiquitous. So we think it's totally normal. But according to this data that you're sharing, it, it does draw attention to particular parts of the bodies that, that are used for sex typically. I mean, again, obviously breasts are also used for breastfeeding and everything else.
You don't have to sexualize breasts always, but those are what are coined the private parts for a reason. Right. So I think that, you know, again, we haven't talked about this yet on the show here, but.
Growing up, the bikini was always something when I was a kid, I would talk about with my mom, my mom was not like a super, you have to wear only skirts and long sleeve shirts. But there was this kind of common discussion we would have this knowledge and even friends conversations with friends that the bikini was like pushing it. If you're a teenage girl wearing a bikini, that's kind of pushing it on the modest standard.
But I think today a lot of people just think, oh, if you're against a bikini, you are crazy. Oh yeah. It's just a normal, it's just a normal.
thing now, now to wear. And even, you know, the one piece swimsuits that exist are like the cutouts and they're super low cut or very high cut. I don't know. I don't understand some of them. I'm like, why is it smaller in the front?
One strip, tiny strip. Yeah, I don't get it. And I think it's important is this is not to shame anyone who has worn or does wear bikinis.
And I don't think your posture was a shaming one. You're sharing research, you're sharing the history and that enough got. people, some people to be upset because I think we would prefer that we lived in a world where you can do whatever you want and there's never any negative consequences. Exactly. And I can understand why people want to live in that world because it eliminates sort of us having to deal with these thornier questions or these gray areas that may require us to even make compromises that we otherwise would not want to make such as, okay, I'm not going to wear a bikini.
Right. Even though I prefer it. Right. And I mean, modesty isn't just about, you know, not wearing a bikini or, like I said, the inches and all these things, but it's a, it's an interior disposition and it is externally shown in the way you dress, but also the way you speak and the way you carry yourself, the way you treat other people. So I think when people get so like defensive about that word modesty, they're immediately thinking, oh, she's telling me I can't wear pants or I can't do this or I can't do that.
And instead of thinking like, what can I not do? I think people really need to think about. you know, I am a temple of the Holy Spirit.
I was made in the image and likeness of God. Does do these words honor God? Does this dress, this swimsuit, does it honor God, what I'm wearing, what I'm saying, how I'm acting?
And I think that should be the way people think about modesty instead of the negative, like, you can't do this, you can't wear this, you can't say that. But really, before you speak, like, okay, should the gossip, for example, like, should I should I be saying this? Just is, are these words honoring God? Probably not.
I'll just keep it to myself. What do you think are some standards for modesty separate from swimsuits? That sounds like you're like, yeah, bikinis don't do it. Yeah. But what about other forms of clothing?
I do think and can you do a modest bikini? I don't know. I don't know about a modest bikini. Um, but, and I do think it's situational.
Uh, for example, if you're going to go to church or any sacred space in Italy. They have these signs outside of the door that are the guidelines of dress, their dress code. So I just got back from Italy and, you know, it's basically, you don't show your shoulders. I think like men can't wear shorts if I saw that correctly, or, you know, you have to wear-Nothing above the knee. Nothing above the knee.
For men, I think maybe for men and women. Right, right. Which for men now, a lot of men are wearing these super short shorts. I generally, for myself, I think it also depends on your body type. And I'm pretty slim.
I always have been. It's just how I was made. And so I don't have a lot of curves. Maybe if someone was a little curvy than I am, or if I was nursing a baby, I would have a little bit of a higher neckline.
And but I don't, I don't think one rule, blanket rule applies to every person or situation. And that's why it is very difficult. to talk about. So what would you recommend for people listening? They're like, okay, I would like to be modest, but not in the way that it's like extreme and frumpy and like the obviously modest person who's always buttoned up, you know, but I want to be beautiful and fashionable.
What would you recommend? I think in the book that I wrote, we talked about tightness of clothing, not just when it comes to modesty, but when people are wearing things that are too tight and you can basically see the outline of their undergarments. I think that we shouldn't be able to see your undergarments on the outside of your clothing. So it shouldn't be too tight, not too low cut, maybe not too short. Like if you need to constantly adjust your clothing.
So my husband is a, is a high school teacher and we chaperone a dance every year. And every year I feel like the girls dresses were getting shorter and shorter and tighter and tighter. And you know, there'll be stairs at the venue and I'm going upstairs and, you know, I can see your underwear and you're, the girls don't even look comfortable. They're like constantly tugging down on their dress or their skirt and constantly pulling things up.
And so when you get dressed, you should look in the mirror and make sure that your outfit isn't see-through. You know, stand in front of the window or something, because I one time was at an event and this girl walked through and her dress, it was maybe this kind of color, but it was sheer and you could see her undergarments and she didn't realize it. But as she walked through, I think she saw the look on people's faces like, oh no, like they were just like a little bit embarrassed for her. And, um, she went and told a friend of mine, like, oh my gosh, why didn't anyone tell me that, that my dress is see-through?
And she, she ended up leaving. Um, But things like that, you know, look in the mirror and move in your clothing. Is this going to move when I have to raise my arms or bend over to pick something up?
I mean, I think it's good. I remember my dad telling me as a girl, and he was always pretty gentle about clothing stuff. And my mom was pretty gentle. So I think they were pretty balanced.
But my dad would say modesty is contextual. A lot of the time, like you just said, whether you're at church or you're at the pool, you're going to be wearing different clothing. So part of it is...
that. Part of it is the disposition of your heart and how you behave with other people, not wanting people to just like look at you and, you know, like gawk at you, but you want to engage people and get to know them for who they are. And you want them to know who you, for who you are.
But then also that there are extremes on both sides. Like you can go the extreme of the super skimpy bikini and wearing the see-through dress or no dress at all. I mean, Kanye West is parading around his new, I guess, wife naked, literally naked. And I think it's so disrespectful. She's disrespectful of herself and he's disrespecting her, my opinion, in a big way.
So there's that extreme. But then there's the other extreme, which I think also is an extreme. Afghanistan recently has required all women to wear the full burqa. So they have to have everything covered, hands, eyes, everything. Every single woman in this country of Afghanistan.
That is an extreme too. And I think my dad encouraged me, which I think to this day is some of the best, like most sensible common sense advice, go somewhere in the middle. don't go to either extreme. Don't be so modest that you're always covered up and people look at you and like, that's the modest girl. And then don't be immodest to the point where people are like, that's the immodest girl or that's the girl that's just dressing that way.
And this goes for men too, to some extent. I mean, men, I think typically are not using their body the same way women necessarily with fashion. Fashion for men is typically different than women, but there can be immodest men's fashion, I think too.
Exactly. So it's not just for women. But I know what I'm saying right now is even going to be controversial. Of course.
Of course. I mean, anything about this topic is controversial. And people think that, you know, to the one extreme, the women who are, you said more modest, but I think maybe a better word would be like more covered.
Like, you know. That's a good distinction, actually. Right. It's a really important distinction.
So. Because you're not necessarily more modest if you're in the burqa. You're just more covered.
And a lot of these women will say, you know. I'm, you're immodest because you're not wearing a floor length. You don't, you don't look like you walked off the set of little house on the Prairie, right? For the record, I am wearing kind of a Prairie dress today, which I don't usually do, but this is a Carly Jean Los Angeles dress, which I love.
We love the brand on the show and it's very comfortable, but you don't have to always wear a dress like this. Your dress is very cute, Jessica. Thank you. I love the dress by the way.
Thank you, Carly Jean. But it's, you know, there's different. The Little House on the Prairie style is in style right now.
It is. As far as this kind of thing. Some people are very high, don't even show their wrists. Their ankles are covered. And they think that they are more modest.
But they're just more covered. And a lot of my friends dress this way. And they'll say, oh, you're wearing pants today. And I'm like, yes, I am.
I wear pants. Which, again, is a controversial issue, particularly, I think, in the Catholic circles. And some evangelical circles. And some evangelical circles, you're right. And they think that to be modest, you have to dress like that.
But you can have style. You can wear color. You can express yourself. Like Rachel Zoe used to say, style is a way to say who you are without having to speak.
And she's a... Hollywood fashion stylist. And, and I always found that I find that, you know, to be true, you can express your style, like, and going back to what she said, I actually was visiting my mom at UCLA at the hospital, she was hospitalized there before she died. And I had an audition for Grey's Anatomy. And I didn't have scrubs, you know, in my trunk of clothes.
So I ran down to the bookstore, and they sell scrubs in the UCLA bookstore. And I put them on and then I ran up to see my mom really quick and I'm running out and I'm waiting for the elevator and I get into the elevator. And this person came out of their room and they're like, excuse me, nurse, nurse, nurse, because I was dressed in scrubs. I looked like a nurse.
They're like, we need help in here. And I said, I'm not a nurse. I'm just dressed like one. And the door is shut.
But most traumatic hospital experience ever. Like, I'm dying, nurse. You're like, it's just a costume. But, you know, I was dressed like a nurse. And so they thought I was a nurse and they thought I could help them.
And unfortunately, I couldn't. But your clothing says so much about you. It really does. And so we should be more mindful, I think.
I was just interviewing with Ginger Boileau, formerly. Duggar. So she was sharing about her journey from kind of fundamentalism and they had very strict modesty standards that she grew up with and loosening up.
Not that she's all wearing whatever, but I mean, she's very tastefully dressed, but that was an extreme that she experienced growing up. And I think there's a tendency when the sexual revolution happened and then there's such chaos in the culture. I mean, OnlyFans is huge today.
And so many women, I mean, like you said, in high schools and... junior high, the styles and the fashions for these young girls are getting kind of crazy, some of them. And so I think there's a tendency from some good people to say, well, we got to react against that. Yeah.
We have to like solve that problem to the other side. Right. But I think what I love about your clip here is here you are wearing like a cute dress, you know, you look, you look great.
And you're just saying, yeah, I'm not going to do bikinis and here's an alternative. Right. Which, I mean, I got nailed to the cross for that dress, for my shoulders and my knees. And my little kitten heel on my shoe.
How can this girl be talking about modesty? I think so much of virtue is in the mean. It's, I mean, St. Aquinas talks about this a lot.
St. Thomas Aquinas, what is virtue? A lot of it is in the happy middle where you're, you know, if you're going to be so restrictive of food and you're never going to eat and you're going to starve yourself, that's a problem. You're going to be.
you're going to be a glutton and eat too much food and indulge yourself. That's a problem. So what is the mean?
Okay. Eat well, take care of your body, enjoy food once in a while for special occasions. If it's like a, you know, a special treat, but don't overindulge and don't under indulge. Don't under eat.
I've, I mean, I've had people go on this, you know, we try to eat as healthy as possible. Um, but they get so crazy about it that if they go to a restaurant or something and there isn't something they can eat, they'll literally just sit there and starve because. They feel like they just can't, there's nothing that they can, they can eat. You know, God gave us immune systems and, um, you know, once in a while, it's, it's not going to, hopefully not going to kill you.
What advice do you give to folks listening who maybe are on their own journey of discovering their personal style? So they want to be modest in both their heart and their clothing. They don't want to be at an extreme, but they're also trying to figure out what their style is. Um. I mean, it's so hard.
You know, back in the day, we would look at magazines. But there was nothing, I would say, maybe really modest about magazines. The reason that I started that my swimsuits are the way they are, I guess, designed the way they are, is because I looked up to the movie stars of the 1950s.
So Audrey Hepburn, Grace Kelly. It's really hard to find style icons today to look up to, but they're there. Where are they? I mean, who are your style icons today? Oh, gosh.
I really like Princess Kate. Yeah, I really do like Princess Kate. She's so proper, though.
I do like Kate. I mean, I think she's very classy. It's a very, I think it's a very elevated style.
It is. And, you know, it's like the style of maybe Audrey Hepburn and Grace Kelly, which I tend to like a lot more than the... style of of today and you know there's this word going around all over I'm not on TikTok but TikTok and Instagram demure demure is the word of the of the season I guess and so I saw this video and I'm like why does everyone keep posting that they're demure and you know cutesy and I looked up the definition of demure and it's modest in dress and behavior and so I love that that's the trending word of the season and I hope that people actually you know, look at that and go to the actual definition instead of just posting crazy videos with this sound clip. What about modesty standards for men?
Oh gosh, modesty standards. I mean, that's modesty standards for men is one of the things that people will start yelling about when you start talking about modesty. Why don't, why doesn't anyone ever tell men that they have to dress modestly? And I'm like, Maybe someone should, but I don't feel that's my calling.
That's fair. We will find a guest for the Lila Rose show that will be to talk about that. Yeah. I mean, I just look to the style icons of the past because sadly enough, besides Kate Middleton, there's nobody today that I really look up to for their clothing choices. Sounds like an obvious need in the market for someone to fill.
Yeah. Looking at, you know, the red carpet events, I'm like, they're not even. A lot of them are just wearing lingerie and I don't understand it.
Any final words of advice for women, especially who are on their own style and modesty journey? Pretty much how I ended my talk. You know, we're all... Should we watch it?
No. No, let's do it. Let's do it.
Instead of being discouraged, I took matters into my own hands and I designed my own swimsuit. My goal is... to disprove the age-old notion that when it comes to swimsuits, less is more, and that you can dress modestly without sacrificing fashion. My inspiration for my swimsuit line is Audrey Hepburn, who is timeless and classy and who happened to have dressed very modestly. I don't think people think of Audrey Hepburn and think frumpy, dumpy, and out of fashion.
These are some of my designs. And my tagline is, who says it has to be itsy bitsy? Well, to answer the question, if you look at today's society... Everyone, everyone says it has to be itsy bitsy. Fashion designers, the media, and let's face it, sometimes parents.
Little girls would not be running around in sexy underwear and skimpy bikinis if it wasn't for their parents buying them for them. I believe that the woman was afraid to come out of the water because she had a natural sense of modesty about her that has been stripped away by today's culture. And we need to bring it back.
I have dedicated a lot of my time. I travel all over the country speaking to girls about this issue. I've just written a book called Decent Exposure about it. And we need to teach girls that modesty isn't about covering up our bodies because they're bad.
Modesty isn't about hiding ourselves. It's about revealing our dignity. We were made beautiful in his image and likeness. So the question I'd like to leave you with is, how will you use your beauty?
Thank you. So good. So what's next for you, Jessica?
I have started a few other businesses that are totally unrelated to the swimwear business, which I will continue to do. We're actually having a huge sale right now because I'm moving my business out of California. How long is the sale going on for?
Probably for another month. Okay. This should come out before then.
So yeah check it out guys yeah it's buy one get one free which we've never done before but we're really trying to clear the warehouse um and one of my other businesses is uh uh an entrepreneur course digital art entrepreneurship course for kids because i think it's so important for kids to learn how business works um my customer service team is always sending me screenshots of messages that people send and i'm like i don't think they understand how business works With the buy one, get one free, someone said, oh, I bought something two years ago. Can I just go pick something now for free? And I'm like, oh my gosh, they do not understand business at all. But I, you know, I'm traveling the world with my husband and my three little kids and I homeschool them. So most of my time is spent with them.
I just, I love to be around them. And so that's why I homeschool and I get sad when they're not with me. And I only have maybe a handful of years left with my son because he's 13 and I can't even, I can't even believe it. How do you balance business and homeschooling?
Lots of coffee and a very supportive saintly husband who is the best person I've ever met in my entire life. That's beautiful and encouraging, I think, to women to know that you can be a businesswoman and homeschool and be with your kids. Jessica, you're awesome.
Thank you so much for joining the podcast. Thank you for having me. A huge thank you to our partner, EWTN.
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