I think we're live okay we're live this is what happens when you put a rookie in charge okay my name is Michael Roundtree Josh Lewis is out this week on vacation and we are going to talk about the Nar New Apostolic Reformation it's going to be exciting episode we're going to talk specifically cult-like Tendencies of the Nar so please stay tuned you were watching The Remnant radio a crowd bunch show where we interview pastors teachers historians and theologians from different churches and denominations my name is Joshua Lewis and this is my co-host Michael round tree together we want to help you break outside of your theological Echo Chambers if you're interested in learning about history theology or the gifts of the Spirit this is the show for [Music] you okay guys welcome back we have an exciting episode talking about the New Apostolic Reformation we talk about this from time to time and if you check check out our playlist underneath this video on YouTube you can find uh or you can find a whole playlist of episodes that we've done on the New Apostolic Reformation very uh interviews with various uh Scholars we've talked with uh Holly pivik and and Doug giet I always under fail to pronounce his last name correctly they've written a lot of books on this I think we talked with Michael Brown about it and some others so uh anyway make sure you check that out also before we jump into this specific episode want to make sure that you guys know that we are having a remnant radio conference this fall uh it's going to be from October 3rd through 5th in Houston Texas technically the woodlands just outside of Houston Texas we're talking about all things spiritual gifts uh I'm gonna be there Miller's G to be there Josh will be there Sam storms will be with us going to be a fantastic time uh so make sure you sign up for that and you are still in the early bird registration until June 30th you say how do I sign up for the early bird well you can uh you can sign up for the newsletter also in the description of this video and when you sign up for the newsletter you'll receive a special code it will give you 20% off okay I think I hit all my talking points Miller how about you how are you doing over there in the basement there I'm good man boy uh dude this uh this Sunday I'll get to preach to Jack deer he'll be in the audience because I'll be preaching at his church Trevor Davis's Church in Olive Branch Mississippi which is kind of fun my family my my wife's M lives in uh Oxford so I'm taking the whole family with me and I get to hang out there which would be really cool I'm also going to see I'm going to try to see alely and her daughter uh so I haven't seen them in years so that's what I'm up to man okay ready to talk about the Nar well make sure you ask Jack for some good critiques I remember the early days I don't know did he do did he help you learn how to preach because I remember when I first started it was just like red marks all over the page and I just had to have thick skin which is kind of always the case with Jack but it's always good advice I don't know no that's totally true but you know the thing is like these days Jack doesn't he doesn't do that as much he just wants to be proud of us like he really I mean have you noticed that like he he's he's very complimented of of us I think he's very proud of us I doubt he's gonna offer much critique especially since I'll be preaching his book pretty much I don't know Miller he he says different things behind your back but no got so we're g to jump in Miller uh help us out so New Apostolic Reformation some of our viewers really really familiar with this concept others not at all others have read the books they've heard the podcasts and they're still like I still don't know what the Nar is then there's others who are like I'm a pastor and people say I'm in the Nar and I'm like I don't even know what the Nar is so help us understand the Nar the New Apostolic reformation and kind of how we want to begin framing this conversation because we're specifically focusing on cult-like tactics of the Nar or Tendencies yeah of course so what we're going to today is we're going to talk about we'll give you some some brief caveats talking about what the N is it's uh beliefs practices ecclesiology uh whether or not it should even be considered a thing or not some people say the nard doesn't exist we should at least address that and how H the next thing we want to talk about is how it does display various cult-like Tendencies or the churches that are narik uh can also be very cult-like and that it kind of does enable cult or narcissistic leaders so um yeah so just from the from the onset we need to State at the very beginning of this that that New Apostolic Reformation while it was a formal organization at at one time under the cpeter Wagner Institute now it's really just bunch of people who consider themselves a part of an Apostolic network uh and uh they may or may not have come out of the C Peter Wagner Institute or may or may not be Affiliated but they have a particular list of beliefs and practices and an ecclesiology that we think sort of show a Common Thread between these churches they all kind of talk the same language so I think that's where we should start is talking about uh what the Nar is versus what it isn't and what are the unique things to it yeah and I think that whenever you say they're all like you said something like they're all part of the same Apostolic Network you're not talking about for instance there is a specific Network like hey join our Nar Network you know there there's nothing like that but they do commonly Network together and there tends to be well we'll talk through some of the beliefs Within These networks sometimes they're real formalized networks of churches sometimes they're very informal it can range uh Every Which Way and uh I think maybe a couple things I'll also say to frame it like the the reason we're we're focusing on cult-like Tendencies is that you know when you when you think about a cult you're usually focused specifically on doctrine that is heretical so for instance um what do they believe about the way of Salvation what do they believe about Jesus these are actually I mean if there are two questions what do they believe about the Trinity maybe we could say those three if you just ask those three questions that alone will tell you a lot of whether this is a cult or not because these T these focus on the primary doctrines we're talking about the person of God God is Triune one God in three persons this is historic Christianity uh we we focus on Jesus he's uh he is the god man 100% God 100% man and a a singular capital P person the second person of the Trinity God the son uh and and so we we have the person of of God we have the person of Jesus we have the way of Salvation and uh you know how is one saved is it through faith in Jesus is it through faith plus do all these good things is it through faith in a Jesus who's not really the same Jesus you guys are talking about is is it faith in Allah you know like what is how do they Define these things and honestly I just mentioned Allah that was originally an offshoot of uh Judaism Christianity and uh and they believed that they had sort of a purified version of the books that uh that came through the dictation of Allah and uh and and so on and so uh but when we talk cult here's my point we're typically talking Doctrine and yet within cult there tend to be regular certain kinds of practices and tendencies and ways that you can pay attention to and I would say probably in a technical sense and Miller you can push back with on me with this but I would say in a technical sense Nar churches if they hold to Orthodox Christianity we wouldn't say they are a cult but we would want to pay attention to cult-like tendencies that can bring spiritual damage into our lives how what do you think about that framing there Miller yeah well so this is hard people get angry with me when I say I don't believe that Nar is heretical I do believe Nar is very dangerous and you should have nothing to do with a church that is Nar like and so I highly recommend you get out of churches and as we go through their beliefs and practices and then we go through how they show cult-like uh Tendencies U that should prove why you should get out of these kind of organizations and so uh I think that's where we start though is is what exactly is the n um and what what do they do how they practice their faith what do they believe and and what's the structure of their churches like if you can call them churches sometimes I I hesitate to do to even do that because sometimes they function more like Ministries than they do actual churches but uh to start with Let's uh talk about the various beliefs and uh practices and ecclesiology of what would be what I would deem a New Apostolic Reformation type church again because it's not a monolith and there was at one time in a a formal organization though there is not now there are still many churches that practice these kind of practices believe these kind of beliefs and have these kinds of ecclesiologies and so like someone like Michael Brown would say um the Nar isn't even a thing it doesn't even exist well that's like saying aryanism doesn't exist but yet we have the Jehovah's Witness denomination or church that very much is rebr you know committing the same old heresy as arianism or you have modern day uh progressivism where they they you got guys like Andy Stanley saying we need to unhitch ourselves from the Old Testament which is a Neo form of within that might not know that they're in it because this is just a label that humans have assigned in this is what we do we organize things we systematize we say this is that and not everyone's going to agree with the label but having read quite a bit and having interacted with uh a lot of churches over the years the three of us on the R Radio would agree that there is something to this label the New Apostolic Reformation now I think it can be slapped around it can be this pejorative sort of like mudslinging contest where that's Nar and you're Nar and that's a Nar over there There and narar Everywhere right but uh so it can be overdone it can be overused all labels can but when properly used we actually think that it can be helpful so Miller Walk us through some of these beliefs and practices of the Nar and then we'll begin to kind of move into cult-like Tendencies yeah and and I'm just going to acknowledge my own bias on this on the front end I believe that I was fired from a Nar church and if you'll see the show notes you'll see that there's a link to that episode where I talked about that and so um some of those uh beliefs and practices I would say it kind of starts here and you many people would call this the Manifest sons of God doctrine that was sort of uh proliferated in the lat rain movement and then carried on into more modern-day Nar type circles with the uh preaching of Paul Kain and some of his prophetic stuff who I think was a false prophet today um but uh one of those main manifest sons of God type beliefs is the idea that there is this especially gifted person who is called an apostle and that Apostle is especially gifted to receive Revelation from God to get vision for his church or vision for a region so that that region or that church can have all that God wants so like you think of um uh I I would call this a our book although you may disagree with Michael I don't know feel free to push back but when I think of uh when Heaven invades Earth by Bill Johnson you know he's talking about getting uh in heaven everything runs perfectly on Earth everything is not perfect and so when we pray the words on Earth as it is in heaven we're trying to get all of Heaven to come to Earth and it is the belief of guys like Danny silk who wrote culture of Honor that you have to have an apostle at the top um and that Apostle is the one who's especially gifted at getting a revelation or a vision to for the Earth so that way all that God intends for the Earth can be taken down from heaven and brought here um I I know that bethl their ecclesiology is similarish and um in the sense that they believe they've got to have these five-fold offices in the church with an apostle at the top getting the vision um and I believe they borrowed this largely from a book called uh a complete win skin by Harold Everly who was a graduate from the C Peter Wagner Institute so you can kind of see the the descended y of this Doctrine coming straight from C Peter Wagner um who this is the reason why John wiber and C Peter Wagner parted ways so they they believe that you've got to have this Apostle the top um they believe that vision is sort of Paramount in order to get that all of all that God has and intends for that King for his kingdom in this region or this particular church and so then there would be other uh beliefs in practices yeah just kind of flesh out on the the Manifest sons of God that comes from uh the King James version of Romans 8:19 uh where it says it refers to the earnest expectation of the creature which waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God okay and so that is about how when Jesus comes back and we're raised from the dead we receive our res Resurrection bodies that's the the manifestation of the sons of God uh that when we receive these Resurrection bodies God will resurrect or renew creation along with it so creation is groaning and waiting and labor pains until that day because right now use Paul's language from 1 Corinthians 15 like it it's like a seed my B I'm like a seed but but one day it's like that seed becomes wheat or that seed becomes corn or that seed becomes whatever it is and Paul's point is like you know our bodies as they are right now are not as they will be they they will be manifest at the end of time but they've taken this little phrase the Manifest sons of God and they've applied it to really special people who will uh overcome sickness and death and execute God's judgments on the earth now I I don't think I don't think Bill Johnson believes that I don't think a a lot of people who have been labeled Nar believe that there are certainly some like Paul kanaine was big on manifest sons of God William brandom was big on manifest sons of God uh it it was I I think kind of made its rounds in the IHOP world and um and so but you can see kind of like a melding together where it's like these special people who do these special signs and wonders and miracles and therefore hold these special offices and I just as a Believer uh and wanting to be a Discerning believer I I want us to be real careful of putting people on pedestals as miracle workers and as like when I when I read through the book of Acts it's like yes the apostles did signs and wonders but it's like it it's the the storyline is trying to show but like hey it's actually breaking out from just then Philip's doing stuff and Steven's doing stuff and you know Philip's got four daughters who are prophesying and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see Visions old men dream dreams this like as John whimber used to say everybody gets to play so you've got like manifest sons of God or super special Apostle or Prophet over here and then you have like everybody gets to play like because of Pentecost we all have the spirit and we can all move in power and those who do like maybe are especially like 1 Corinthians 12 maybe are gifted especially in Prophecy or especially in in Miracles or something else or healing like wherever these gifts are manifest that doesn't make that person any more special uh and it doesn't necessarily point to them having awesome character you know we we're seeing this all over the place today with people being exposed and I think uh the charismatic movement is especially susceptible because we we put people on pedestals all the more because of special revelatory power and uh or supposed socalled right and um anyway so those are a few things that I would maybe add to that discussion flushing out a little bit manifest sons of God and the super special prophets and apostles yeah so other you believe in prophets and apostles though I definitely do I think uh the word Apostle just simply means one who's sent so I would liken that to a missionary somebody who goes and plants churches um I wouldn't see it as somebody who is uh some sort of special Revelation uh from God in order to get the vision for or a church a local community I think that's actually pretty bad and and again I would I would just point to the the non-historical uh the ahistorical I guess you could say uh practice the fact that you don't see Church vision statements in the 1950s or before that that it's a novelty that's less than 100 years old and and again it's not that I have a problem with church vision statements I think it what it is is is a a an how do I say it's an import from Corporate America and we used to to get people to buy into div vision and get people to come on board and what's dangerous about the Nar is they're basically taking the the apostolic and they're taking somebody who's a CEO Visionary type person and making them the leader of a church and they're uh claiming that they have special powers to get a unique vision for that church and so that unique Vision can often turn something into a Ministry rather than a church where you're hyperfocused on one thing um no pun intended uh sorry actually I'd say pun intended now um but uh other things that are common amongst them would be spiritual mapping uh strategic level spiritual warfare um declarations this idea that's because uh New Apostolic Reformation or Nar churches are a distinctly charismatic um uh subculture then you'll often see a lot of Word of Faith practice you know this idea that word shape World um you've got guys like you know someone from Chon's network uh giving DEC dressed up as Gandalf with a staff claiming to end racism uh by making these declarations and they believe that they genuinely do and I get the good motivation I mean who doesn't want racism to end but this this word of faith is usually caught up in there and again I wouldn't say that every Nar church is going to have all of these practices as a part of it I'm going to say that there have some of these practices and I would say that the ecclesiology is probably the bigger distinctive of the Nar right yeah another one that I think of on that declaration kind of thing is like how many times did you see like a YouTube internet profet declaring that Co was now over like I I right I do declare there's there's my Georgia accent I do declare Co is over and it wasn't over just look at the statistics but um anyway well I mean now it now it's pretty much over but I mean Co I I I hear of a few occasional people that still get it but uh anyway enough of that I don't want to talk about Co let's talk uh ecclesi ology now you mentioned just uh you mentioned that just now so uh we've already touched on like how the Apostle becomes sort of like the CEO and so like what what Miller and I would say and we're we're part of the convergence Church Network we're board members for it and uh and so we would say that our understanding of the New Testament is that 1 Timothy 5:17 the elders are to direct the Affairs of the church and so there's to be a plurality of Elders Who oversee each church but what happens is when you get a visionary Apostle and that Visionary kind of has this double meaning it's kind of like I get the vision from God I go up on the mountain I come down and God tells me this or that and it also means sort of like I'm the CEO Visionary type but you end up having like a a boss of the elders who hierarchically is higher than the elders and so functionally the elders end up not really having a role in directing the Affairs of the church it's really just one person and uh we've seen that this can uh this can be dangerous so these kinds of churches tend to still have Elders tend to still have deacons um they're they're just sort of like looking to the Visionary guy uh who is can be sort of a hot shot who calls the shots and so um and so I think that's probably the biggest Miller you had some of this uh experience we did an episode called fire from n Nar church and so uh you're but I'm glad you can laugh about it now Miller um I am you know it's funny because that was done what almost three years ago now and so like the the trauma response that I used to have is not quite what it was uh but I actually did have to go through trauma therapy because of doing this and it was terrifying to do that podcast like I was scared when I did it um now you know there's somebody in the the comments section who's being really kind of mean-spirited and trying to get me to name names uh let me just say this for you Paul since you can't seem to figure out that I'll name it when I want to it's not that I don't think I should warn people from it it's because right now that church is actually investigating my allegations now they're they've employed certain Elders at their Church to do the investigation which I think is only going to turn up hogwash like you need to get a third party especially if you Elders are indictable but we'll see I'm gonna let uh I'm gonna let this process play out before I name names and it's also because I represent other people that are really hurting they're also victims and we're traumatized but I mentioned this because the my experience was that in this kind of church the ecclesiology has uh CEO type person at the top they've got a vision that Vision ends up becoming cart blanch authority to override any other decision because all you have to say is well that doesn't fit within the vision that God has given me yeah yeah God told me it's the God card but with different language and and it's actually more subtle and more convincing especially if you've bought into this idea uh of their definition of what an apostle is or isn't um and so they'll often you know claim to have elders and deacons but when it comes to those Elders actually having power making decision well if you're the sole decider of vision you can override any Elder you can override any Deacon and then the question also is is and and here's my I wrestle with this because it's not like Nar is exclusive in these tactics many churches have a CEO head leader at the top the Moses model who gets cart blanch authority to to override other people's decisions fire anybody he chooses because that person just didn't get the vision um it's it's everywhere today um but I do think that the Nar in particular this view of the Apostle and their ecclesiology is narcissistic enabling meaning they actually want that to be their leader um yeah yeah Michael would you add to that uh well no I I think that we've hit a decent amount on the authoritarian leader uh kind of idea but I think now let's begin to as we've walked through some of these Tendencies of these distinctives of Nar churches whether they label themselves or Nar a Nar church or not lots of other people do and we think that these uh these labels are reasonable um so let's start with authorit authoritarian leadership of course Cults are famous for this uh Miller and I will just kind of walk through a few of these first of all there was the people's Temple uh in Jonestown which was led by Jim Jones and so that's the famous story so Jim Jones you know he's he started out in sort of charismatic even angelical uh uh like Christian world but then it's like he started to sort of migrate away from that and and migrate away and he moved into this sort of like socialistic uh sharing kind of world which hey you know like they shared in Acts chapter 2 and you know like generosity is great but but this was kind of like Mega weird and uh and they started their like own city called Jonestown ended up with like a whole bunch of people dying and drinking poison and that kind of thing but uh Jim Jones claimed to have psychic abilities that he could use to manipulate and control followers and so it's like he had these Supernatural powers that bolstered his unrivaled authority of course it's an extreme example Le led to the loss of lots of Life utterly tragic if you go back and you read the story of Jim Jones and and and the people's temple in Jonestown you just go back and look it up if you're not familiar with the story but you have a high Authority leader mixing and matching Supernatural power with uh with his role so uh Miller maybe you could help me with this and then I'll have you talk about Church's Scientology a little bit um when you read the New Testament you have Jesus performing crazy Miracles you have the apostles performing crazy Miracles why can't we have people who are both uh like who both have authority and are moving in signs and wonders and and miracles like there has to be some space for that right if we're charismatic because there's that's the New Testament so so how do you distinguish between that and what we're talking about how do I distinguish between an A A Nar Apostle who works miracles a Jim Jones who claims Miracle working power and those who actually perform miracles for God and in his name kind of how do you distinguish like uh on on one hand we acknowledge there can be a proper place for someone who has ecclesiological Authority and works signs and wonders we see that combination in the New Testament and yet we also want to be wary of certain kinds of leaders that are mixing their Authority with signs and wonders maybe I'll kind of answer my own question if you want to uh piggyback on it because sure that's fine but but I I think what I would say is is the difference is that these uh that these leaders so the the leaders in the New Testament are pointing us to proper Doctrine to Holiness and this kind of thing and they're not trying to Trump up their own authority the purpose of the signs and wonders are to actually magnify Christ so for instance when the apostles pray uh acts 4:29 and 30 now Lord consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness as you stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders to the name of your holy servant Jesus then verse 31 one they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly they were magnifying Jesus that was their whole purpose and uh and they lived humble lifestyle they were making much of him in contrast with the Jim Jones who's using his narrative to bolster himself that's very different and I get uh I get real cautious and Miller I'm just going to be honest like you know a lot of you guys are viewers are familiar with you know we did you know we did these big convers ations about the uh like on the front side before IHOP had you know gone through everything that it's gone through and the exposure and all this and we uh we had the videos up of uh talking through the prophetic history and you know all of us have said we regret that now and we we took it down as soon as we started to learn uh some of this but uh but I think in retrospect looking back I I wish I had had the discernment to recognize that this is a prophetic history like Mike Bickle is telling stories that are all about like miraculous stuff that involve Bickle and it really was self-aggrandizing and I contrast that with Paul like hey these men are puffed up with visions and their encounters with angels and all of these things like hey they've lost touch with the head and so I just Miller you know I've had some I have had a few grandiose Visions in my life and Miller you and only a couple of people are ones who I've told those things to in fact you know even Jack was like hey can you give me a story about this or that and uh like there were a couple of stories I withheld and I told him was like this one is too intimate I don't I don't want this one to be shared for a book that he was writing on the voice of God and I just want to be real cautious about um saying too much about grandiose Visions especially ones that are self-aggrandizing I think they kind of trump up my own authority or my own specialness and I I just want to be careful about that I I don't know Miller I'm just talking what do you think uh I mean I think the the Hallmark of some of these churches the authoritarian leadership are these kind of grandioso Visions I think they're usually led by people who are very high on the narcissistic spectrum and they always claim some sort of unique Supernatural ability and or secret knowledge and so you know you've got guys like Jonestown you've got guys like the Church of Scientology and and elron hubard who felt like he had discovered the secrets of of human existence you've got the branch devidians with David Kesh and I remember when that happened uh in Waco Texas I was just a young boy at the time but he claimed to have a special prophetic gift and would interpret biblical texts and claim to receive Divine Revelations um so he could justify his leadership and teaching within the group and and I saw this in my old church I mean this person would claim to have these very very unique Visions uh that would be the justification for certain um decisions he would make or uh I would say and this is the thing that that I find is also a common practice is the way that they use the scriptures they will take the scriptures out of their context put a prophetic spin on it and then that becomes the game plan for what they've just decided I mean how many times have we heard the the passage on a new win skin um God's doing a new thing um he's uh win skin is this new building so we're doing a campaign so that we can get the new wine that's supposed to be in this new win skin building which none of those verses have anything to do with what Jesus or none of those descriptions or interpretations have anything to to do with what Jesus was actually trying to teach which had to do with the New Covenant um not uh and fasting nothing to do with a new building nothing to do with some unique vision for a particular church or church plant or Ministry um and yet I I find this to be common throughout all of these cult-like organizations especially that of the N yeah yeah I I would just say anything that like that seems to point out that me and my church we are extra special I mean you have these kind of like everyday ordinary churches but we're extra special because we have this special leader with this special prophetic vision and this special way of doing things it makes us special if we give to it of our finances of our time of our energy and all this which which I think builds into uh this next quality that we want to talk about this uh next tendency and that is so we've talked about this authoritarian leadership and we pointed out ways in which Nar churches do this as well as talking about some of the Cults that do the same thing and why we always want to be careful about highly authoritative leadership but now we look at the next one which is the exclusivity of US versus them and you see this uh you you can see this in Nar churches because you have the elite person you have the elite thing and and I just I get C nervous about just like in social media world man where it's like man it seems like there's a whole lot going on at that church in reading or they seem like there's a whole lot going on at that church in Australia man that church in Denver or that church in wherever like man they've really got it going on because of this and that and I just want to be real careful about us versus them because when I read uh about the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 uh the seven churches the church that had it really going on the church in Sardis the church that had a reputation and a name that it was alive it turns out Jesus says you're dead and then this famous Church the uh that everybody wanted to go to well Jesus comes and it says like a thief he judges it yes Jesus judges his church he judges this church that was more obsessed with its brand and uh and I think that Christians can get caught up in that like uh you know again to come back to ihob I don't want to pick on him too much but uh but you know change the expression of Christianity on the earth I I don't really actually want that I I just want that oldtime religion that's what I want I want what Jesus and the apostles had not a not a brand new expression of Christianity now sure God is doing new things all over the place all the time and that's beautiful that's just what the Holy Spirit does he gives new life and he's he makes things new he makes people new he gives us New Birth uh he plants churches and that's new and that's beautiful but but if if new means new doctrine or new means new Christian practices and that and that sort of creates this elitism of US versus them that's what we want to stay far away from Miller yeah um so just to be clear one of the Tendencies we mentioned is the uh back up a second the authoritarian leadership the the second thing we're mentioning now is the exclusivity and how that leads to an us vers them mentality and we another thing I want to mention about this second point about exclusivity is you'll find that some some of these organizations are more bold and their claim to be uh unique um but I would usually say that they're more hinted at rather than plainly stated so they may talk about hey God is doing great things all over there then you'll find the uh condition but here here's what God's doing or you'll hear phrases like um God has given us a unique calling in the city um probably quoting verba in what I've heard in the past but I mean this these are the kinds of things I would literally hear make disciples yeah yeah yeah instead of saying stuff that's plain and passed down and that's the big thing I think we need to mention the exclus exclusivity is usually based off of some sort of novelty that is not rooted in history so it's it's God has given me a recipe for a new kind of community uh God has given me and then you fill in the blank with something that is a novelty um and so you know these are things that I would often find interesting is when when I would sit in a church service and people would go man I've never heard this this is this is fresh bread this is a rama word I'd go yeah you you've never heard this why are you not suspicious of that are we called to teach new things or are we called to pass down the doctrines that were once and for all entrusted to the Saints like are we laying again a New Foundation or are we just continuing to to bring up the old foundation and add to it with more righteousness and righteous living um I I find that to be the extraordinarily concerning part is is there is this Obsession I think the reason our culture Falls victim dict them to it so easily is because we are obsessed with novelty we've all got the newest iPhone uh or the newest in my case the newest coffee maker I'm always finding the the best cup of coffee but that is true like we have this this leisure in in society today that is always craving the brand new thing and I think we've done that in the church as well to bought onto new teachings new revelation thinking that it's good having no idea that we failed to endure sound Doctrine which actually requires endurance yeah uh Doug and Holly in uh in their book probably in a few books mentioned this but I I remember at least in one of their books reading about like specific quotes from leaders talking about how like we're discovering new truths and and man that's I mean truth is older than time right like Jesus is the way the truth and the life and uh I I don't want to discover new truths about God like it really endangers the sufficiency of scripture I mean I want God to show me more of himself I want to pray the prayer of Moses Exodus 34 Show Me Your Glory uh but but to have to like a new truth like we believe in Revelation We Believe in Prophecy we believe in these things but prophecy is never meant to give us new doctrines and it's never meant to give us like ways of like to to use an example ways of praying that the Apostle Paul didn't even know about like the courts of Heaven we've done several episodes on the courts of Heaven you can go back and watch them uh I think practices like this it's like hey if you pray this way if you sort of travel into the courts of Heaven over here What's happen happening in the courts of heaven and you can hear the cloud of witnesses and you can hear the testimony of gosh you know the the Saints and the uh angels and and he goes through all these things that you got to hear and then you like bring it back and and it can make your prayer life effective like I mean it's so convoluted it's hard to even repeat like what is he actually even trying to say and it's really a gnosticism gnosticism uh which there's several aspects to ticism but one of them is having special unique knowledge and so when we talk about like yes we believe in Prophecy like it's one thing if you get a revelation about something that's going to happen agabus has a revelation about in Acts 11 about a famine that's about to come over the entire Roman World Acts chapter 20 Paul is told over and over and over again that he's going to suffer in various cities like uh or or maybe God shows you the secrets of your heart like the person of somebody's heart like in 1 Corinthians 14 when every body prophesies and the secrets of a man's heart are revealed and he falls to his face and declares God is certainly among you good example of that is in John four when the Samaritan at the well when Jesus says go call your husband I don't have a husband that's right you've had five husbands and the one that you're with now is not your husband I I perceive you are a prophet you think so that whole exchange Jesus identifies like her and she goes back to her town she says listen to a man who told me my whole life story and so prophecy can be like that and and can tell you details about maybe what has happened about what will happen those are a few examples of Prophecy or word of knowledge and uh praise God for that but that is very different from I figured out a new way to pray that not even Paul or Jesus knew about and it's more effective man feel sorry for Paul and Jesus they didn't know about this way to pray that endangers what we call sufficiency of scripture 2 Timothy 3:16-17 all scriptures God breathed and is useful for rebuking uh for teaching rebuking training and righteousness so the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work what do I need to be thoroughly equipped for every good work the new truth revealed by an apostle or Prophet or a manifested son of God no no no no no I have all the truth I need in scripture for salvation and sanctification and nothing more so uh Miller I agree with you I get real nervous about new tactics new truths new fill-in theblank that's kind of like the magic recipe in the next best thing I think there is an addiction to new and I think the New Apostolic Reformation well there it is new it's right there in the title well I mean I remember reading Danny Silk's book we did a an episode on it which you guys should check out the culture of Honor episode uh he literally says they've got the recipe for Revival last I checked Revival is a sovereign thing done by God if you claim to have the recipe you're selling something and you're wildly deceived um okay let's move on though other other Tendencies uh third uh charismatic leadership so leaders within the Nar are usually figures who are believed to to to possess special gifts such as prophecy or healing um and their Charisma is perceived as Spiritual Authority sometimes a personality cult base around the leader so cult of personality is what we're talking about today for sure and that is rampant and so these leaders will often demand submission to their vision and their their leadership since it was a vision given to them directly by God and or their position was directly ordained by God so this special gifting is often used to or employed to dismiss anybody who has any allegation against them so you'll hear hear the kind of allegations with a fill in the blank of um they just have a spirit of Jezebel or they're just bitter and wounded or they just have a a spirit of division you hear these kind of things all the time my f so like Allan Allan Scott there's a spirit of accusation against us right right which I I'm just kind of like I don't know I I've read up on what's happening at the dwelling place and it greatly concerns me oh I mean the the vineyard that he came from released this giant report about spiritual abuse and now people are making the same claim at the uh former Anaheim Vineyard now dwelling place and I'm kind like man where there's where there's smoke there's fire I mean an entire report released and then more stuff that's happening and then to just look at that and be like it's a spirit of accusation is to spiritualize um a situation in which like these are like actually legitimate complaints let's let's actually interact with these or you know here's here's another I wouldn't I wouldn't call this Nar I would just call this overp spiritualization crappiness but uh most recently with What's happen of more eloquent terminology with what's happened with like you know in Dallas it had like this on Charisma magazine a picture of TD Jake Robert Morris and Tony Evans all of whom have uh there have been allegations of just sexual impropriate proprieties two of them have now resigned for their positions right yeah and so the the headline that went with it went with it is was something like you know Dallas Mega Church pastors facing spiritual warfare and and I'm kind of like oh my gosh let's not just like this is okay to just choose Robert Morris as an example okay a 12-year-old girl that he uh sexually abused for four and a half years I mean I I would say it's actually Jesus who is the light exposing that I wouldn't say that it's like the devil that brought up this accusation uh or allegation I would say like hey praise God that this is coming to light it's nasty it's disgusting it's it Grieves me it seriously Grieves me I've been at the dumps ever since I heard about it but what magazine was this uh this was Charisma magazine my goodness I see that that's what I would call an enabler when you publish an article like that and you claim these men are just coming under spiritual attack when they've actually been accused of really heinous egregious things one of which should be and was criminal but it's passed the statute of limitation that's egregious and I something that is mind-blowing to me Michael and I'll get a little personal here and you can kind of tag on I'm sure but uh what astounds me is I have these allegations against my former Church leader they want to do an investigation but I'm looking at the sermons going the sermon alone that's all you had to look at when a person claims that he's being attacked by the accuser of the Brethren and the accuser of the Brethren is former people from his church with allegations against him or that church you need look no further that sermon itself is abusive by nature and I think the same thing is true when you have Charisma magazine like that right there makes me never want to do anything with Charisma like I just I I cannot believe that that's the way they would frame that conversation yeah well back back to just like Nar Church stuff so we've talked considerably about the authoritarian leader and using and bolstering himself with this sort of transcendent spirituality and and really the point that we're trying to make is that this is often married to over spiritualizing credible push back against their leadership because like key is that person has to remain the leader and we and we walk through the various authoritarian leaders and the different Cults and and as soon as you get push back when it becomes spiritualized and it's couched in Christian language that's something to just be mindful of that's not something that a healthy church or a healthy organization does is they take credible credible allegations and they say oh this is spiritual warfare or this is the spirit of accusation or she's just Jezebel or he's just bitter and wounded um you know those kinds of things that last one wasn't really spiritualizing that was that was just a Counterattack but we see it all Man Okay so we've talked about um the various different uh okay authoritarian leadership exclusivity of US versus them uh and we we talk just now about the dismissal of credible allegations uh we've talked about the the doctrines and the new doctrines and new truths which we of course see as like part and partial of just what it means to be a cult as you're coming up with new truths but then we start to see that kind of language arising in N churches uh let's talk a little bit about emotional manipulation Miller can you let me let me add one more thing about the doctrinal rigidity in these organizations uh just just something that I've noticed is anybody who brings up any kind of concern about the doctrine or about the ecclesiology or about the practices they're usually uh uh blacklisted or discredited with man you just don't get it you you don't understand because you're not an apostle or you're not not Apostolic and so right then and there that person is is made to be less than while the apostolic leader is up here so if you find yourself confused it's because you're not you you haven't ascended you haven't arrived to this position you're not uniquely gifted and so actually what it's doing is gaslighting that person to not trust their own intuition and or they're they'll be uh deemed as divisive or having a spirit of so um I think any kind of challenge is is not accepted and what that does by its very framing since you're not Apostolic and you really don't have understanding because you're not um it creates an echo chamber of its own making and so it has no ability to interact with people out out side of itself most of the time these Nar churches they'll only uh invite other Nar speakers uh and or they'll only communicate and and attend uh other organizations that are interested in becoming like them so now to the emotional manipulation go for it sorry Michael I had to get the caveat okay yeah all good emotional manipulation here's what we wrote in our show notes I'm just read them uh practic such as intense okay here we are intense worship emotionalism and emphasis on Supernatural experiences can create an environment where emotions play a significant role in decision- making and adherence to the group's teaching okay so this one's complicated for me because I actually want really emotive worship like I I think that's great I look at the Psalms they're incredibly emotive you know when I'm going through a hard time and I am right now you know like I I'm reading the Psalms like every day consuming them and just processing my emotions with God and that's a a major part of both our individual worship but also our Corp worship the Psalms are the are the hym book for ancient Israel and the church continued singing the Psalms all throughout uh all throughout church history and uh and so I I want to have emotive worship I want to engage with all my heart and uh and yet emotional manipulation is used in Cults okay so now if I'm a cessationist Miller I'm saying aha see you you guys you charismatics you should join our team because y'all are the ones with all the uh hyper emotionalism music and we just sing hymns and we keep it simple and we focus on these big Orthodox truths and we're we're singing These and uh and it's historic and you guys are singing all this like fresh pop music from Hill song and bethl and getting all emotional and uh all y'all have cult-like Tendencies so so if if a sociation says that to you Miller what do you say um man I I have't struggled with this one I know this is common that the emotion from the music and identifying with a community that has such amazing worship uh is is seen as man emotional manipulation and maybe this is still me deprogramming out of it Michael help me out but um I think there should be emotion uh I mean we're worshiping the greatest person the the greatest of all beings um and when I think about what he's done for me I want to worship and I get emotional and I think being teary eyed or putting my hands up in the air or even wanting to dance and celebrate those are entirely appropriate things to do like uh when my wife and and one day I'll show this video do you remember the the video of my friend filming my uh wife telling me she was pregnant like it wasn't just some small thing it was I literally jumped for Joy I was so excited and so thankful and and then I turn to God and I look at my son today and I'm thankful once again like there are reasons for why we should be emotional in when it comes to worship so that's probably the one thing that I tend to disagree with calling it emotional manipulation and maybe it's there and I just can't see it just yet and still might be a blind spot of my own having been programmed in it or something yeah well I think what we're trying to do by even bringing it up is uh is saying that that in Cults that is what they do is they try to manipulate people's emotions and get them get their emotions heavily involved in decision- making now when it comes to churches you know like for instance Elders are called to be sober minded I don't think Elders should be highly emotional in decision making um and but I I think I'm with you man um especially when it comes to uh to worship I I I want to be really uh really emotive I think where I would probably draw the line is where uh genuine emotional responses to God uh like that that's one thing and that's very biblical but when it becomes hype and we're trying to create this environment of highlevel hype that we're calling an encounter with God and that's where I would draw the line and I think sometimes there's there's a fine line there but you know I do see in the Psalms like um you know commands to bless the Lord and and even like commands that are engaging of our emotions and so I see that in there but I don't see it is like high hype it's it's not like um it's it's not like David's this cheerleader being like come on we got Spirit yes we do and everybody just like sitting in the bleach come on you know like uh I I don't see that I don't see the high hype that we see a lot of times in worship but um but yeah I think there's a fine line here it it would probably be hard to really like Define exactly where that line is um next we've got we just have a few more minutes here we have Financial pressure and isolation from uh from mainstream Christianity um Miller do you want to talk a little bit about financial pressure in and that involvement in the Nar yeah sure um I think the financial pressure okay since since we said that that Nar is an a um exclusively charismatic subgroup um then oftentimes Word of Faith and Prosperity Gospel get mixed into it um but I also think the tendency to have new revelation where you reinterpret passages that would have never meant that to to the author who wrote those words nor to the historical church these uh new text can often be used or this fresh rev or you know fresh bread from Heaven Can often be used as manipulative tactics to get people to give into a particular vision and since you are getting a new vision and it's just the new thing that God is doing which is what people say all the time in these communities God is doing a new thing and now I'm going to tell you what that new thing is because he's given it to me to tell you he's given me the vision of this new thing and now I just need you guys to get behind God are you gonna follow God or not in this and by getting behind God it usually means throw your money at it so um I'd be careful for Anytime they use new wine skin or new wine for the new wine skin and it having something to do with their particular Vision um but I would say that's one of the TAC itics that's used and the Prosperity Gospel is is is Alive and Well in many charismatic churches today in general which by the way I am a charismatic I love the charismatic movement as a whole um but I do find that to be a a deviation yeah you know as I'm reading our notes on isolation from mainstream Christianity uh I think that really just goes in uh goes part and partial into the US versus them and the elitism uh that can be present in these kinds of churches which is also present in uh in Nar churches so uh instead of maybe diving into that Miller maybe we could uh pivot here and just kind of move toward like what would be some of your big picture uh closing thoughts takeaways like if if you want to say like hey um be aware of this number one cult-like tendency within a Nar Church what would that be for you Miller okay sorry ask that again big what's your what's your what's your big takeaway in terms of like one major like if there was maybe your primary uh cult-like tendency to avoid within the Nar like your primary like have your radar up for this one I know it's all of them but have your radar up this one I mean I'm okay I'm gonna answer two different questions one you asked one you didn't ask uh there's there's the thing that I'd be concerned with the big red flag and then there's also the thing that I would warn people who've come out of it against um because that's that was a that was a struggle so the when it comes to the big red flag for me is I'm just concerned with novelty um I don't think novelty is what it's claiming it's usually selling you something I'm interested in historical I'm interested in just attaching my faith to those who've gone before me joining the great cloud of witnesses um and to do that I don't necessarily believe that requires novelty in fact I would actually question the novelty and how it how it subverts what Christ has already told us plainly to do um and then for those who've left these environments um spiritual abuse in general I remember the very uh after getting fired uh I had a choice to make the first Sunday I suddenly had nowhere to be and I turned to my wife and I said come on we're going to the The Village Church in Dallas um because I did not want to get into a rut of not attending church and I didn't want my kids to ever uh ever think that that was permissible like church is something we do every Sunday church is something we do throughout the week we are Christians and that means we're involved in the church um but on top of that I I know how easy it can be to just throw if it smells like the Nar you immediately got to run away from it and the tough thing is because the Nar is not a monolith um people will often throw away the gifts of the Spirit because of how prophecy was used and how the apostolic uh office was supposedly used which I would not call it real Apostolic um yeah there is a tendency to throw these things out um same thing with Word of Faith you know the moment somebody commands for a sickness to go away or commands a healing they're like look Word of Faith um but but just because one looks like the other doesn't mean one is the same as the other and so that's my concern um I've had a number of conversations with guys like one guy that I'm regularly in conversation with who's on the in the chat right now Seth angle he's come out of a pretty difficult situation Word of Faith and it and I you know same thing I would be concerned for him don't throw away what God has called good when it is for today and it is good um yeah that's that's about it yeah cool I think for me I I would maybe focus on the maybe two things one is the US versus them sort of elitism mentality like we've really got it on uh or going on and other churches don't as much and uh like the we really want to avoid US versus them with our own siblings in Christ and I think there are a lot of different Church models that that work lots of different ways of doing it like uh you know House Church midsize Church what whatever kind of church and and I just think that like ordinary Christianity Ordinary People just living faithful lives for Jesus walking in community practicing the one another commands of the New Testament going out and making disciples just the basic stuff like you're you're doing it that's it you know Paul said Paul doesn't I guess he tells the Thessalonians make it your ambition to live a quiet life and work work with your hands you know we tend to think like make it your ambition to do the next big thing on the earth to change the expression of Christianity make make it your ambition to you know be a part of this Grand movement oh we've all got to be a world changer yeah to be like oh dude you know the I remember the song there's that old song is like I'm going to be a history maker in this land like it this is like a literal worship song of me I don't want to worship me like God is the history maker God is the one who invaded in The Exodus who who came in Christ and our uh and who's coming again like God is is the one that I want to celebrate I want to celebrate my awesomeness and so um one is elitism and just pay attention to that kind of language and you know I I think any leader can slip up in it and just bring it up with your leaders if you know it's one thing if it's like here or there they might say it probably didn't come off the right way or whatever I mean we're all proud I mean just be perfectly honest um but if you see this routine thing of we're we're just kind of better than the rest uh it that that's really bad I I would avoid that and then the other thing and it's not entirely unrelated but just basically unaccountable leaders and it's real easy when somebody says I have the vision that it basically means they're not accountable and um and so and and I don't have a problem like I I think with a leader having a vision for a church like hey you know God's called us to serve the homeless or God's called us to do this or that and I I do think that there can be some unique fingerprints that every different you know that different churches have even though we generalize that we all are making disciples like one's going to do it this way and one's going to do it that way and there'll be some differences that's great and beautiful uh every church can be different in that in that way but uh I just want to be real careful with leaders who sort of exalt themselves to be like I have this vision and therefore I'm unaccountable and uh and what is the way in which people in your church can hold leaders accountable according to 1 Timothy 5:19 to20 leaders are accountable to the church now this can be a problem in non-charismatic churches in nonar churches as well unaccountable leaders uh especially with real charismatic personalities but I would say that there is a special ability for it to become an issue when you when you attach signs and wonders and prophetic visions and Apostolic Authority and those kinds of things to it every leader is accountable to the church every leader is accountable to God and the church and so um and so I I would say keep those things in mind if your leaders are unaccountable and if you have a US versus them kind of elitism uh those would be couple things to especially watch out for uh Miller we're at the one hour mark any final thoughts before we wrap this thing up uh no man I think we we did it well I imagine there's way more cult-like tendencies that we could address and talk about in more more detail uh a good podcast out there for you guys wanting to know more about things that are cultish is cultish great podcast love those guys yeah somebody in the chat was asking about Kingdom Theology of course I mean I think scripture is King full of Kingdom theology I think what they mean sometimes it's called Kingdom now theology or dominionism uh which is really like basically the seven Mountain mandate which is you know there's a mountain of government and a mountain of education and a mountain of entertainment basically like take the seven different Industries or kind of spheres or domains of life and like our job is to like overtake the these Realms and that can actually uh I'm glad this person brought it up that can actually be part of this movement notion that we're taking over the world together come and join this big movement Christ is taking over the world and uh he's taking over the institutions and so that dominionism is very much a big part of the New Apostolic reformation and it tends to be attached to the vision of the Apostles and the and the prophets who help kind of make this taking Dominion thing happen so there's a lot more that could be said on that we've done episodes on it check out all the episodes in the playlist uh but with that said I want to remind you one more time about our conference and about the uh the early bird deadline is June 30th so make sure that you sign up you can find all the information at the r radio.com uh you can also sign up for the newsletter and when you do you can get a link through that for the early bird discount so make sure you check that out uh remember we are doing this every Monday and Wednesday from 4 to 5:00 pm Central Standard Time uh thank you so much for joining us for this episode share it around push that like button and we'll see you next Monday I think this Monday we're interviewing Julie Roy if I remember right so uh going to be great episode you guys have a great week oh I have to push end